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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

By Eyes High
in Game Of Thrones

Meredith Quill
Message added by Meredith Quill

Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

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GrailKing

GrailKing

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Anything is possible but unless a leak or spoiler is confirmed by legitimate sources I’m not believing anything.

Except for( reputable with salt ) Freakdoctor and his guesses near season time or Lads, most other reputable sources, won't print it if they knew it.

I don't think WOTW or WIC etc would let it out.

SeanC

SeanC

45 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

My only thinking is it's a herring, and Strikland is told - bring me the head of the red hair bitch - and he does, but it's Aly Karstarks head instead. 

That’s as ridiculous as the earlier speculations done here that Cersei would send assassins to Winterfell in Season 7 who would mistakenly kill Alys because she also has red hair.

GrailKing

GrailKing

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

That’s as ridiculous as the earlier speculations done here that Cersei would send assassins to Winterfell in Season 7 who would mistakenly kill Alys because she also has red hair.

Maybe, but they used it with Tyrion's head.

Is it as ridiculous  as Cersei having a miscarry in S7?  hadn't happen ( yet ).

Cersei has done a number of things that comes off as foolish, just like Ned, Cat, Sansa, etc.

If it does happen, context is what will matter, if it doesn't happen no harm, no foul it's all speculation.

Edith

Edith

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Anything is possible but unless a leak or spoiler is confirmed by legitimate sources I’m not believing anything.

We have to understand that Lads was a exception, not the rule of how leaks works between seasons. Before him, the only spoilers we got, apart from WOTW and L7R, came from a extra in season 6 that spoiled BOB, although I have to say that the first time BOB leak happen, Sansa was supposed to die and it wasn't until one of the extras from that battle showed a picture that Freefolks accepted that it wasn't her who would die.

Then came Truede, he started spoiling after the season has started. And the same with Friki.

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Eyes High

Eyes High

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(edited)
4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

A flag came up for me when Sansa and LF had that speech about her being safe surrounded by people and family who love her, add to her warning to Jon about Cersei.

I think the Harry Strickland "leak" is garbage, but a post on /Freefolk about this pointed out that there are a few potential warning signs in S7 that suggest that Sansa may in fact be in deep trouble in S8:

1. Sansa warns Jon in 7x01 that everyone who has ever crossed Cersei, she has found a way to murder: "We still have a wall between us and the Night King. There's nothing between us and Cersei."

2. In 7x01, Sansa tells Littlefinger that she's safe at Winterfell, since she is surrounded by friends and has Brienne to protect her.

3. In 7x04, Cersei says in response to Tycho's comment about the GC "I too would like them to recover some things that belong to me." I'm guessing we're going to find out what "things" she meant in S8. 

4. In 7x06, when Sansa tells Arya that she has hundreds at Winterfell loyal to here, Arya says "They're not here now."

5. Also in 7x06, when Sansa is explaining to Brienne that she won't go to King's Landing, she says "They want another Stark prisoner, they can come and take me. Until then, I'll remain where I belong." (She means Team Dany here by "they," but the "come and take me" phrasing is ominous.)

So Sansa, while being afraid of Cersei, seems to think that as long as she's in Winterfell and has Brienne, she's safe. We know that Winterfell is going to be the site of a huge battle and is about to be lit up like a Christmas tree--although by whom or what it's not yet clear--and that Brienne is going to be in the thick of the fighting and therefore unlikely to be able to protect Sansa (ditto for Arya and the Hound, going by actor sightings in January). What does it mean for Sansa? Nothing good, I'd wager.

With all that said, D&D said that the third WTF moment comes at the very end. Tyrion selling out Sansa for her to be murdered by the GC is not going to happen at the very end of the season.

Edited by Eyes High
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screamin

screamin

I'm expecting that the 'betrayal for love' will be Tyrion, knowing that Dany is pregnant and her descendance assured, will probably talk Jon into some suicidal attack on an enemy to save Dany and the world. Tyrion-like, he will glibly convince both Jon and himself that this action is necessary for the good of all, but also Tyrion-like, he will keep an eye on the possibility that getting Jon killed in heroic martyrdom will leave Tyrion the field clear to guide, comfort and eventually marry the widow. I fully expect him to be found out after the fact, so that Dany will know that the third betrayal has been fulfilled.

IMO, that betrayal - calculated, strategic, malicious without being altogether evil - is more in character for Tyrion.

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Edith

Edith

(edited)
2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think the Harry Strickland "leak" is garbage, but a post on /Freefolk about this pointed out that there are a few potential warning signs in S7 that suggest that Sansa may in fact be in deep trouble in S8:

1. Sansa warns Jon in 7x01 that everyone who has ever crossed Cersei, she has found a way to murder: "We still have a wall between us and the Night King. There's nothing between us and Cersei."

2. In 7x01, Sansa tells Littlefinger that she's safe at Winterfell, since she is surrounded by friends and has Brienne to protect her.

3. In 7x04, Cersei says in response to Tycho's comment about the GC "I too would like them to recover some things that belong to me." I'm guessing we're going to find out what "things" she meant in S8. 

4. In 7x06, when Sansa tells Arya that she has hundreds at Winterfell loyal to here, Arya says "They're not here now."

5. Also in 7x06, when Sansa is explaining to Brienne that she won't go to King's Landing, she says "They want another Stark prisoner, they can come and take me. Until then, I'll remain where I belong." (She means Team Dany here by "they," but the "come and take me" phrasing is ominous.)

So Sansa, while being afraid of Cersei, seems to think that as long as she's in Winterfell and has Brienne, she's safe. We know that Winterfell is going to be the site of a huge battle and is about to be lit up like a Christmas tree--although by whom or what it's not yet clear--and that Brienne is going to be in the thick of the fighting and therefore unlikely to be able to protect Sansa (ditto for Arya and the Hound, going by actor sightings in January). What does it mean for Sansa? Nothing good, I'd wager.

 

Sansa in 7x07, "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives"

The whole quote by Ned, "Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths.."

Edited by Edith
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GrailKing

GrailKing

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think the Harry Strickland "leak" is garbage, but a post on /Freefolk about this pointed out that there are a few potential warning signs in S7 that suggest that Sansa may in fact be in deep trouble in S8:

1. Sansa warns Jon in 7x01 that everyone who has ever crossed Cersei, she has found a way to murder: "We still have a wall between us and the Night King. There's nothing between us and Cersei."

2. In 7x01, Sansa tells Littlefinger that she's safe at Winterfell, since she is surrounded by friends and has Brienne to protect her.

3. In 7x04, Cersei says in response to Tycho's comment about the GC "I too would like them to recover some things that belong to me." I'm guessing we're going to find out what "things" she meant in S8. 

4. In 7x06, when Sansa tells Arya that she has hundreds at Winterfell loyal to here, Arya says "They're not here now."

5. Also in 7x06, when Sansa is explaining to Brienne that she won't go to King's Landing, she says "They want another Stark prisoner, they can come and take me. Until then, I'll remain where I belong." (She means Team Dany here by "they," but the "come and take me" phrasing is ominous.)

So Sansa, while being afraid of Cersei, seems to think that as long as she's in Winterfell and has Brienne, she's safe. We know that Winterfell is going to be the site of a huge battle and is about to be lit up like a Christmas tree--although by whom or what it's not yet clear--and that Brienne is going to be in the thick of the fighting and therefore unlikely to be able to protect Sansa (ditto for Arya and the Hound, going by actor sightings in January). What does it mean for Sansa? Nothing good, I'd wager.

With all that said, D&D said that the third WTF moment comes at the very end. Tyrion selling out Sansa for her to be murdered by the GC is not going to happen at the very end of the season.

Yes, all those point to some possible bad news, something else, sometimes anger makes one do foolish things, sometimes fear makes one do foolish things.

Sunshinegal

Sunshinegal

Sansa might be in danger, but I don't think she will die or be killed.  I think the producers might want to keep Cersei as relevant as possible and increase her longevity on the show.  Having Sansa as a hostage will give Cersei some leverage.  

Sansa protectors will most likely be fighting the wights up north  (Brienne, Pod, Arya, Jon, and maybe Sandor).   Sansa will probably be fighting Cersei in the south (think of the meaty scenes that can happen between Lena and Sophie).  Sansa did flee Kings Landing and this can be a final confrontation between them.  It does make sense that the Stark who suffered the most from Cersei should be the one to end her.  

I don't know much about the valonqar prophecy where Cersei might die from a younger sibling.  Sansa might be the oldest living Stark but she is still Robb Starks younger sibling.  She might be the valonqar.  I don't think Cersei would suspect that.  It's a theory I came up now while writing this post, and I could be wrong.  It's a wild guess on my part.

I still think Sansa will rule the north in the end.  I want her to be happy and find some peace.  

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screamin

screamin

Oh, I totally believe something awful's going to happen to Sansa...it happens every season, doesn't it?

I doubt it encompasses her death, though that may be my wishful thinking talking since I like the character. But I'm pretty sure that it's not going to happen by Tyrion handing her over to Cersei to try and buy her goodwill - he could never credibly believe he could buy her gratitude enough to guarantee his own safety when it's clear that nothing he could ever do would change Cersei's basic loathing for him.

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
On 2/15/2018 at 11:29 PM, Eyes High said:

Kit was spotted in Belfast again. Seems like whatever goes down during this Winterfell battle, Jon and Arya are front and centre.

 

I hope there's some nice, long Jon/Arya scenes next season to make up for the dearth of their relationship in the previous 7 seasons.

On 2/16/2018 at 10:21 AM, screamin said:

And he does this because he 'wants to be on the winning side'? Makes no flippin' sense,

Remember how unbelievably nonsensical the leaked spoilers last season sounded? I am not saying these leaks are true, just that we should not discount them based on logic anymore. D and D are operating outside the scope of logical story telling in order to get to the end as soon as possible and because it looks good on TV.

If WF is indeed being attacked by Lannister army/GC as the WOTW spoilers seem to indicate then does that even make sense? How does this army get that far in this weather without none of the Northerners once again not knowing about this?  As the director of the wight-hunt episode put it, they are not bothered about the plot making sense anymore. They just want to get to point B from point A.

I do think that Tyrion's betrayal is a sure thing mainly because if this is not true, what is going to be Tyrion's story next season? Continue his season 7 plot of being Dany's advisor and ending up with Casterly Rock? He is a major character in the series, independent of Dany and Jon and needs his own plot  Where are his conflicts and where is the drama now that Dany is fighting the WW?

I think that Tyrion's ending will in some way involve him going against Dany/Starks - could be the third holy shit moment David and Dan were talking about.

14 hours ago, Edith said:

Dany betrayal for blood cost her, her child and husband. If Tyrion is Dany's betrayal for love what does Sansa has anything to do with it? Shouldn't be something personal to her? Jon? the baby? Her dragons? But Sansa?! What's the relation there?

There was a leak in there somewhere that Sansa is an unintended consequence of Tyrion's betrayal. That Tyrion lets the GC in and she gets killed in the ensuing battle - Tyrion is sad about this and flees to KL. Now, I agree that it is stupid Tyrion does not realize that Sansa could get killed because of his betrayal but Tyrion has been stupid for quite a while on the show to support the show's idiotic writing.
 

Edited by anamika
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GraceK

GraceK

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I hope there's some nice, long Jon/Arya scenes next season to make up for the dearth of their relationship in the previous 7 seasons.

Remember how unbelievably nonsensical the leaked spoilers last season sounded? I am not saying these leaks are true, just that we should not discount them based on logic anymore. D and D are operating outside the scope of logical story telling in order to get to the end as soon as possible and because it looks good on TV.

If WF is indeed being attacked by Lannister army/GC as the WOTW spoilers seem to indicate then does that even make sense? How does this army get that far in this weather without none of the Northerners once again not knowing about this?  As the director of the wight-hunt episode put it, they are not bothered about the plot making sense anymore. They just want to get to point B from point A.

I do think that Tyrion's betrayal is a sure thing mainly because if this is not true, what is going to be Tyrion's story next season? Continue his season 7 plot of being Dany's advisor and ending up with Casterly Rock? He is a major character in the series, independent of Dany and Jon and needs his own plot  Where are his conflicts and where is the drama now that Dany is fighting the WW?

I think that Tyrion's ending will in some way involve him going against Dany/Starks - could be the third holy shit moment David and Dan were talking about.

There was a leak in there somewhere that Sansa is an unintended consequence of Tyrion's betrayal. That Tyrion lets the GC in and she gets killed in the ensuing battle - Tyrion is sad about this and flees to KL. Now, I agree that it is stupid Tyrion does not realize that Sansa could get killed because of his betrayal but Tyrion has been stupid for quite a while on the show to support the show's idiotic writing.
 

If We are going on the assumption that anything can happen because D@D want their end game, then let’s just throw logic out the window. Maybe Cersei is secretly Dany Sister and she’s the valanqour and kills her. Maybe Jaime ends up falling in love with Sansa at first sight and decides to go against Jon and make her queen of the iron throne.

The difference between the leaks of last season and the one now are that season 7 leaks, as nonsensical as they sounded, didn’t completely assassinate characters. This insistence that Tyrion will betray them doesn’t even fit in the narrative. Everyone seems so sure because why exactly?? What’s his motive? How will they erase 7 years of heroic character development to make it happen? The season is still in development, i find it extremely hard to believe that such massive leaks are getting out and are legit.

Literally every single person Tyrion cares about is on the same side now. And he’s gonna say screw it and join up with Cersei? That’s beyond nonsensical 

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GraceK

GraceK

(edited)

The reason I am fighting really hard against this is because these leaks are extreme. If show Tyrion does betray them, i don’t think it will be in burning down WF and sacrificing Sansa. It doesn’t fit at all. It could be as simple as trying to spare Cersei or something low key, with good intentions.

Edited by GraceK
anamika

anamika

(edited)
2 hours ago, GraceK said:

The difference between the leaks of last season and the one now are that season 7 leaks, as nonsensical as they sounded, didn’t completely assassinate characters.

Did not completely assassinate characters? lol!

Arya spends two seasons training to be a FM - learning to tell truth from lie, working from the shadows etc. Gets fooled by LF who notices that she is following him and manipulates her with a letter. That's two seasons of her Braavos arc down the drain. Then she fights with Sansa over a stupid letter, is jealous that Sansa has a nice room, wants to murder the Northern lords and threatens to take her sister's face.  Utter shit writing and a complete character assassination of not only book!Arya but show!Arya as well. Reduced to a side character in the Sansa-LF drama.  They have to do a complete 180 for her next season if they want to align her ending to GRRM's.

Sansa tells Jon at the end of season 6 that only a fool would trust LF. Then proceeds to trust LF for the next 6 episodes. Supposed to be a master player by now, but needs Bran's help to figure out that LF is up to no good.

Tyrion one of the smartest strategists in the series completely fucks up Dany's campaign and is the author of one of the stupidest plots on the show - the wight hunt.

Bran is turned into an exposition automaton just as he gets back to WF - no more emotions from this guy. Ruins his reunion with his sister by reminding her of her rape and treats Meera like shit.

Jaime continues to stay with Cersei after she blows up a Sept full of people - makes his entire story with the mad king null and void.

These characters are no longer the book characters. Tyrion is straight up raping a slave in the book and yet on the show he has objections to Dany executing traitors?

The Sansa-Arya feud is an example. In the books, no doubt Arya will have issues with Sansa over her betrayal of Ned. But on the show, the whitewashing of Sansa means that Arya had to fight with her over that letter, making her look foolish and psychotic - character assassination right there.

It may not be nice, or make sense but if they have to align with GRRM's ending, I think we will see some shocking character moments.

That is if they are doing GRRM's ending. If D and D are doing their own ending, then we don't have to worry about all this. Tyrion will continue to be a saint and Sansa may end up on the Iron Throne.

Edited by anamika
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GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
24 minutes ago, anamika said:

Did not completely assassinate characters? lol!

Arya spends two seasons training to be a FM - learning to tell truth from lie, working from the shadows etc. Gets fooled by LF who notices that she is following him and manipulates her with a letter. That's two seasons of her Braavos arc down the drain. Then she fights with Sansa over a stupid letter, is jealous that Sansa has a nice room, wants to murder the Northern lords and threatens to take her sister's face.  Utter shit writing and a complete character assassination of not only book!Arya but show!Arya as well. Reduced to a side character in the Sansa-LF drama.  They have to do a complete 180 for her next season if they want to align her ending to GRRM's.

Sansa tells Jon at the end of season 6 that only a fool would trust LF. Then proceeds to trust LF for the next 6 episodes. Supposed to be a master player by now, but needs Bran's help to figure out that LF is up to no good.

Tyrion one of the smartest strategists in the series completely fucks up Dany's campaign and is the author of one of the stupidest plots on the show - the wight hunt.

Bran is turned into an exposition automaton just as he gets back to WF - no more emotions from this guy. Ruins his reunion with his sister by reminding her of her rape and treats Meera like shit.

Jaime continues to stay with Cersei after she blows up a Sept full of people - makes his entire story with the mad king null and void.

These characters are no longer the book characters. Tyrion is straight up raping a slave in the book and yet on the show he has objections to Dany executing traitors?

The Sansa-Arya feud is an example. In the books, no doubt Arya will have issues with Sansa over her betrayal of Ned. But on the show, the whitewashing of Sansa means that Arya had to fight with her over that letter, making her look foolish and psychotic - character assassination right there.

It may not be nice, or make sense but if they have to align with GRRM's ending, I think we will see some shocking character moments.

That is if they are doing GRRM's ending. If D and D are doing their own ending, then we don't have to worry about all this. Tyrion will continue to be a saint and Sansa may end up on the Iron Throne.

 

I said the leaks didn’t asassinate the characters. I didn’t say the actual seasonal plot.  And maybe I’m using the wrong word. The leaks that came out may have sounded ridiculous, and proven true, but they didn’t have Dany being tortured or Sansas head on a spike or Jon  castrated.  They just had outlines of a plot that seemed dumb. These leaks this year are getting progressively violent and outlandish.

 

And everything you said about Tyrion further proves my point that he is not going to sack winterfell and hand over Sansa to Cersei. For the exact reasons you stated, they have built him up into too much of a saint in the show to pull it off. 

As for book Tyrion, since his goal is to rape Cersei and kill Jaime, him joining her side still makes no narrative sense. Either way, this idea that Tyrion betrays everyone he loves to be Cersei’s right hand man is ridiculous.

Edited by GraceK
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Advance35

Advance35

From the sounds of it, Tyrions betrayal won't be rooted in malice or vengeance, more survival.  I imagine he will turn Ned Stark stupid and want to show Cersei mercy, baby or no baby.  This is a man that still worked for House Lannisters interest after his nephew had the Warden of the North beheaded, his Father by proxy broke Guest Right and had Robb Stark, his pregnant Wife and his Mother murdered at a wedding and all this while knowing Joffrey's claim to the throne was illegitimate, and that Cersei's children were products of incest.

Legacy means a lot to these characters and it still does to Tyrion, as he admitted in Season 7.  He had know problem killing people in mass during the Battle of Black Water so I never bought his rationale for not using the dragons to end the war with Cersei right away.   Though the majority of motivation was vengeance, I think Legacy was partly why Ellaria was willing to murder Myrcella before she would see a Lannister as Lady Martell.

I'm bummed because I wanted either Margaery or Sansa to live through this story.  Anyway I see him feeding info to Cersei hoping she'll run and Cersei will use it as a chance to cross another name off her list.   Proving to Jaimie that Olenna was right, proving to Jon that Sansa was right to fear Cersei despite him saying it's only the NK they need to fear.

Though I don't think Tyrion would need to run, even if Jon had the Steel to kill him in vengeance, Dany wouldn't allow it.

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GraceK

GraceK

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

 

From the sounds of it, Tyrions betrayal won't be rooted in malice or vengeance, more survival.  I imagine he will turn Ned Stark stupid and want to show Cersei mercy, baby or no baby.  This is a man that still worked for House Lannist

 

This makes more sense and what I have been saying. If he betrays them, it’s not gonna be as severe and violent as sacking winterfell and handing over Sansa. It will be something more organic , and perhaps with intentions he feels are right.

 

and that’s IF he betrays then. I personally still don’t see it happening.

Also, as of last season, Jaime is heading over to their side with the knowledge that Cersei has lied and betrayed them. theres an actual possibility he may think she’s also lying about being pregnant or they find out about her miscarriage, in which case, where goes his motivation then? 

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Edith

Edith

8 hours ago, anamika said:

There was a leak in there somewhere that Sansa is an unintended consequence of Tyrion's betrayal. That Tyrion lets the GC in and she gets killed in the ensuing battle - Tyrion is sad about this and flees to KL. Now, I agree that it is stupid Tyrion does not realize that Sansa could get killed because of his betrayal but Tyrion has been stupid for quite a while on the show to support the show's idiotic writing.
 

The problem with Sansa dying as an unintended consequence is that completely contradicts GRRM style of writing. Every POV character has died as a consequence of their on actions, even Robb, Joffrey, Viserys, Drogo, Ygritte and Tywin fit this patern. Sansa death as a cosenquence of Tyrion betraying  Dany doesn't fit. And no Lady dying because of what Nymeria did doesn't fit because Sansa has some responsibility in Lady's death, yes she was a kid and all that but is the same scenario of Bran/summer/Hodor. 

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GraceK

GraceK

(edited)

I’m gonna say one more thing in regards to this and then I’m bowing out. I would rather have confirmation of spoilers or leaks before I believe them. As of right now of these free folk “leaks” coming out are up in the air. There is nothing to back them up and I don’t see the point of arguing about fanfiction. 

Edited by GraceK
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Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
8 hours ago, anamika said:

I do think that Tyrion's betrayal is a sure thing mainly because if this is not true, what is going to be Tyrion's story next season? Continue his season 7 plot of being Dany's advisor and ending up with Casterly Rock? He is a major character in the series, independent of Dany and Jon and needs his own plot 

As you point out, in S7 he didn't have a plot of his own, either, despite being a "major character" who "needs his own plot." It's reasonable to assume that S8 will be more of the same.

 

Quote

I think that Tyrion's ending will in some way involve him going against Dany/Starks - could be the third holy shit moment David and Dan were talking about.

No, because D&D have said that the third WTF moment occurs in the very last episode. Tyrion betraying whomever would have to happen long before then.

Moreover, as has been said, the idea of TV Tyrion going from moist-eyed over the mere possibility of civilian deaths to merrily opening the Winterfell gates for the GC to kill all the men, women and children within is completely nonsensical.

 

3 minutes ago, Edith said:

The problem with Sansa dying as an unintended consequence is that completely contradicts GRRM style of writing. Every POV character has died as a consequence of their on actions, even Robb, Joffrey, Viserys, Drogo, Ygritte and Tywin fit this patern. Sansa death as a cosenquence of Tyrion betraying  Dany doesn't fit. And no Lady dying because of what Nymeria did doesn't fit because Sansa has some responsibility in Lady's death, yes she was a kid and all that but is the same scenario of Bran/summer/Hodor. 

Well, technically in this scenario Sansa would be dying at Cersei's request, which is what happened to Lady. Lady died blameless, so maybe Sansa will as well. (Still think that Harry Strickland "leak" is fake as hell, though.)

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I said the leaks didn’t asassinate the characters. I didn’t say the actual seasonal plot.

 

Maybe you were not around when the leaks came out and we were discussing them then. But you can go check out the thread. There were several of us baffled by what we were reading - ex: LF wants to get rid of Arya because she cannot be manipulated and then manipulates her with the letter! And that plot above was what was leaked - wight hunt, Arya and Sansa's stupid fight, Dany losing against Cersei etc. Boatsex - the wall coming down while Dany and Jon had sex! So yeah, the leak did pretty much assassinate the characters, which was why no one believed it until the first filming pictures slowly confirmed that the leaks were true.

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

 The leaks that came out may have sounded ridiculous, and proven true, but they didn’t have Dany being tortured or Sansas head on a spike or Jon  castrated.  They just had outlines of a plot that seemed dumb. These leaks this year are getting progressively violent and outlandish.

 

And where did I say any of that will be true? I am only discussing Tyrion's betrayal. Not Sansa's head on a spike or the rest of the stuff.

I am saying that Tyrion will betray them for whatever made up reason the show wants to use as an excuse. In the books, he may betray Dany in a different way. Who knows. On the show, they have made him up to be too much of a white knight, so whatever they do, it's going to be nonsensical. They have shown him disagreeing with Dany's way of doing things - maybe they will try to justify his betrayal that way.

1 hour ago, Edith said:

The problem with Sansa dying as an unintended consequence is that completely contradicts GRRM style of writing. 

If she dies in the books, who says that this is how she dies?

I think she will die taking down LF. Using her wits to take down LF is her story in the books. LF in the books is not the idiot he is on the show. Defeating him is not going to be easy.

BTW the GC in the books is currently in the Stormlands. If LF/Sansa get involved with the Varys/fAegon story, Sansa may encounter them in her plot. GRRM has said that we will be seeing more of the Varys/LF rivalry. So there's that.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Moreover, as has been said, the idea of TV Tyrion going from moist-eyed over the mere possibility of civilian deaths to merrily opening the Winterfell gates for the GC to kill all the men, women and children within is completely nonsensical.

As nonsensical as Tyrion burning several soldiers to death using wildfire and then clutching his pearls over Dany's execution of traitors or her using her dragons in warfare?

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

As you point out, in S7 he didn't have a plot of his own, either, despite being a "major character" who "needs his own plot." It's reasonable to assume that S8 will be more of the same.

But this is the last season. Where we are supposedly getting GRRM's endings. Which means characters have to play out their book stories.

Arya was a side character in Sansa's LF plot last season and had no plot of her own. Do you think that next season will be more of the same for her? Is Bran going to be robotically intoning for the whole of season 8?

Surely there has to be more to Tyrion than just advising Dany  and then finishing the story as Hand of the King or Lord of Casterly Rock. Why is GRRM writing a darker, more villainous Tyrion if this is how his story ends? Even Jaime has his own plot with Cersei and Brienne. 

Edited by anamika
  • Love 1
GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
26 minutes ago, anamika said:

ou were not around when the leaks came out and we were discussing them then. But you can go check out the thread. There were several of us baffled by what we were reading - ex: LF wants to get rid of Arya because she cannot be manipulated and then manipulates her with the letter! And that plot above was what was leaked - wight hunt, Arya and Sansa's stupid fight, Dany losing against Cersei etc. Boatsex - the wall coming down while Dany and Jon had sex! So yeah, the leak did pretty much assassinate the characters, which was why no one believed it until the first filming pictures slowly confirmed that the leaks were true.

That’s fair. I don’t think I was around when those were coming out. I started reading the spoilers after Spoils of War so I was likely late to the party :)

 

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

nd where did I say any of that will be true? I am only discussing Tyrion's betrayal. Not Sansa's head on a spike or the rest of the stuff.

 

I’m sorry if I didn’t make myself more clear. I didnt mean to insinuate that you said that. My point was that these particular leaks are so violent and extreme that as implausible as the season 7 ones may have sounded, in my opinion these defy logic. Like, REALLY defy logic. I honestly don’t understand how they can make it work and that’s why I don’t believe them. It’s hard for me to take the Tyrion betrayal seriously when it’s wrapped around a leak that also has Sansas head on a spike. 

I also feel that this early in the game, we should take everything that is “leaking” with a grain of salt.  

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

and of the King or Lord of Casterly Rock. Why is GRRM writing a darker, more villainous Tyrion if this is how his story ends?

I’m looking at this from the perspective of  what has happened  on the show. They have already strayed quite far from the books, and if they are gonna shoehorn in Tyrion’s original villainous arc, they have done nothing whatsoever to foreshadow or build up to it. If anything, they have taken his character in the exact opposite direction. I’m not gonna put anything past them, but IMO taking Tyrion down this road now, in the last season, with all his friends and allies on the same side, is just bad storytelling.

Edited by GraceK
OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

(edited)
50 minutes ago, anamika said:

As nonsensical as Tyrion burning several soldiers to death using wildfire and then clutching his pearls over Dany's execution of traitors or her using her dragons in warfare?

I see it as character development: Tyrion from season 7 is not the same guy that he was in season 2. 

3 hours ago, anamika said:

These characters are no longer the book characters.

Actually, they never were.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya spends two seasons training to be a FM - learning to tell truth from lie, working from the shadows etc. Gets fooled by LF who notices that she is following him and manipulates her with a letter. That's two seasons of her Braavos arc down the drain

As far I understand, that's not the way the game of faces works. And her training was far from being complete when she left Braavos. Her arc of Braavos gave her new tricks, but that is not the whole point of that storyline. To be more specific: her FM arc made her also weaker in a fundamental level too.

GreyBunny

GreyBunny

(edited)

Re: valonqar

The word valonqar specifically means little brother. It's not a non-gendered word like teacher or scientist. Vala is the Valyrian word for man and nouns with val- describe people who are male. Whoever kills Cersei in the books, per the prophecy, is going to be a male.

 

As for D&D throwing out 7 years of character development - they would because they're fucking stupid.

Edited by GreyBunny
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GrailKing

GrailKing

7 hours ago, Edith said:

because Sansa has some responsibility in Lady's death, yes she was a kid and all that but is the same scenario of Bran/summer/Hodor. 

No she didn't !, Robert made a ruling, " it's over !, Ned you discipline your daughter, I'll do the same with my son." Ned- yes your Grace.

 They all start to leave, except Cersei, she then says " and what about the wolf that savaged our son"?

Robert stops ( everyone else also ) turns and looks at a Lannister guard " we found no sign of the wolf your Grace "

Robert huffs, starts to leave again, Cersei says "We have another wolf" Sansa asked Ned "she's not talking about Lady is she?, Lady wasn't there"

Lady's death is squarely on Cersei, and King Robert, because he backed down, Joff and Arya have a small part in Lady's death NOT Sansa.

  • Love 1
anamika

anamika

(edited)

If the show is going with GRRM's ending for the major characters, then I think this little quote from GRRM will be relevant. From his interview in 2013:

Quote

So people have this idea that back when Ice and Fire started as a trilogy, you had an outline where there was a single line that went, “And meanwhile, nobles squabble over power in Westeros.” And that single line turned into the middle three or four books of the series. Is there any truth to that?

It’s a grotesque exaggeration — but there’s at least a nugget of truth to it, yeah. You introduce characters, and sometimes they take on a life of their own.

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow’s arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/george-r-r-martin-answers-our-toughest-song-of-ice-and-886133300

From GRRM's 1999 interview:

Quote

Amazon.com: How many novels will there be in the Song of Ice and Fire series?

George R.R. Martin: The original plan was for three. When I hit about 1,200 pages of the first book, I was still a long way from where the first book was going to end, according to my original outline. So the first book became two books, and I said... hmm... I've got four. Then as I wrote the second book I noticed that the same thing was happening. So I actually called a halt for a while and I did some reorganization and I figured out how I could tell the story I wanted to tell and do justice to it, but at the same time not spend the rest of my life doing it. And six books seemed to be the most viable way to go.

Amazon.com: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html

Then there's this little 2 month old reddit leak which I found to be plausible, because of the lack of hyperbole and exaggeration like Sansa's head on a spike:

Quote

Tyrion will turn on Dany and Jon.apparently he knew that Cersei was lying.he will fled to King's landing after.

*Sansa will die by the GC after tyrion betrayal.

*Arya will follow Tyrion to king's landing,there is a big hint all season that Arya don't trust Tyrion,which will lead to a little bit of conflict with Dany.while Jon stuck in the middle.

*My info know for a fact, that in the last battle This 3 characters will participate: Tyron,Arya,jon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/7kn6cn/some_huge_info_about_season_8/

This leak was before WOTW speculated that the Lannister army/GC was attacking Winterfell.

I find the Arya-Tyrion enmity to be a plausible plot point considering their relationship was a major part of what GRRM was originally heading towards.

I do agree that there's nothing overtly believable about these leaks and they may just be random fake leaks that play into my biases and prejudices and make them seem possible :)

Then we have this prophecy for Dany:

Quote

three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Now, it can't be Jorah because he betrayed her before he loved her. It can't be Daario or Hizdahr because I doubt there's any love there. Same goes for any possible future suitors like fAegon or Euron.

It can't be Jon because the undercover!Jon plot is shit.

The season 7 scripts were peppered with hints about Tyrion falling for Dany. Dinklage talked about Tyrion being smitten with her.

We never saw the end of the Tyrion-Cersei conversation after she reveals that she is pregnant.

Edited by anamika
Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
(edited)
10 hours ago, anamika said:

As nonsensical as Tyrion burning several soldiers to death using wildfire and then clutching his pearls over Dany's execution of traitors or her using her dragons in warfare?

 

It's called character development, just as it's not inconsistent or hypocritical for Tyrion to be carefree and lecherous in S1 when he's serious and (apparently) celibate in S7. S7 Tyrion has a distaste for violence he didn't have early on in the show, as shown on several occasions.

As for the wildfire use, apart from the obvious distinctions between Tyrion and Dany's respective circumstances when those decisions were made, one could say that Tyrion's experience with wildfire at Blackwater--where judging by the expression on his face after it was used was something that didn't thrill him at the time, either--informed his current tendency to shun unnecessary violence and to seek to minimize casualties. Is that nonsensical, or someone who has been changed and traumatized by his experiences trying to stop others from repeating his mistakes?

 

Quote

Why is GRRM writing a darker, more villainous Tyrion if this is how his story ends?

Because Book Tyrion is going to turn it around and achieve redemption. The outline points to this as well, since Tyrion in the outline (despite having burned Winterfell) ends up joining the Starks to bring down Outline Jaime, and the Starks in the outline seem to be okay with this. I assume D&D glossed over the flirtation with villainy part and just skipped to the redemption part to save time.

 

3 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Regarding Tyrion, in GRRM's original outline he was slated to be a villian who is in a triangle with Arya and Jon and burns Winterfell.  

He's not a villain. The last we hear of Tyrion in the outline, he has teamed up with the remaining Starks to take down the real villain (Outline Jaime, who murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne). He does get into a "deadly rivalry" with Outline Jon over Arya, but by the time he does so, he has already changed sides. 

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

If the show is going with GRRM's ending for the major characters, then I think this little quote from GRRM will be relevant. From his interview in 2013:

The season 7 scripts were peppered with hints about Tyrion falling for Dany. Dinklage talked about Tyrion being smitten with her.

We never saw the end of the Tyrion-Cersei conversation after she reveals that she is pregnant.

 

GRRM said he has always known what Tyrion, Jon and Arya's arcs were going to be, but we now know with some certainty that he will deviate from those arcs based on the show: Tyrion and Jon will not fall in love with Arya, and Arya will not fall in love with Jon. So that statement should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the S7 scripts, the scripts state what exactly it is that Tyrion takes away from his realization that Cersei's pregnant (and it's not that he needs to cut a deal with her to place that child on the throne), and that Cersei miscarries. So there's no mystery there.

Edited by Eyes High
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bubble sparkly

bubble sparkly

So how do we think they will drop the Jon parentage bomb in s8?  Will Bran and Sam tell Jon privately, or will they go for maximum drama and have Bran spill it in front of everyone in a great hall meeting?  Although it would be terrible for Jon to find out in front of everyone, from an entertainment perspective I kind of hope they go for the group reveal.  There surely has to be a disastrous group meeting where Glover call Dany a foreign whore and Tyrion Lannister scum etc., Dany is blamed for the NK having a dragon, and Royce bangs on about Targs being untrustworthy.  Seems like the perfect opportunity to Bran to interject with a "speaking of Targs...".  Someone could even provide Bran with his moment on a silver platter by saying something about Rhaegar raping and kidnapping Lyanna, leading him to a "well, actually...." revelation

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It's called character development, just as it's not inconsistent or hypocritical for Tyrion to be carefree and lecherous in S1 when he's serious and (apparently) celibate in S7. S7 Tyrion has a distaste for violence he didn't have early on in the show, as shown on several occasions.

As for the wildfire use, apart from the obvious distinctions between Tyrion and Dany's respective circumstances when those decisions were made, one could say that Tyrion's experience with wildfire at Blackwater--where judging by the expression on his face after it was used was something that didn't thrill him at the time, either--informed his current tendency to shun unnecessary violence and to seek to minimize casualties. Is that nonsensical, or someone who has been changed and traumatized by his experiences trying to stop others from repeating his mistakes?

 

So why did his distaste for violence not inform his choices when he saw Dany use her dragons to burn the slaver ships with their soldiers on them at the end of season 6? Or when she set sail to conquer Westeros with her three large dragons, two of whom Tyrion himself freed from their chains? What did he think Dany was going to do with her dragons and her Dothraki Horde? Did he think Dany was going on a non-violence campaign to defeat Cersei?

When did we see this Tyrion who was traumatized by the violence and therefore became a pacifist? And why in the world does pacifist Tyrion think that a Targaryen dragon queen is the right leader?

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Because Book Tyrion is going to turn it around and achieve redemption. The outline points to this as well, since Tyrion in the outline (despite having burned Winterfell) ends up joining the Starks to bring down Outline Jaime, and the Starks in the outline seem to be okay with this. I assume D&D glossed over the flirtation with villainy part and just skipped to the redemption part to save time.

 

So both Jaime and Tyrion are going to achieve redemption? Poor Cersei - the only Lannister undeserving of redemption it seems. IMO, it looks like Jaime and Tyrion are going on opposite paths in the books - with Jaime possibly heading towards redemption and Tyrion heading in a darker direction. Will Tyrion get redemption at the very end? That's possible. Maybe he tries to set right his betrayal at the end.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

He's not a villain. The last we hear of Tyrion in the outline, he has teamed up with the remaining Starks to take down the real villain (Outline Jaime, who murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne). He does get into a "deadly rivalry" with Outline Jon over Arya, but by the time he does so, he has already changed sides.

 

He pretty much became a villain for me with his actions in the last book. GRRM has called him a villain. The same as the Hound and Theon.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM said he has always known what Tyrion, Jon and Arya's arcs were going to be, but we now know with some certainty that he will deviate from those arcs based on the show: Tyrion and Jon will not fall in love with Arya, and Arya will not fall in love with Jon. So that statement should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

We don't know how much he is going to deviate from those arcs though? The end result of the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle seems to be a deadly rivalry between these characters - Tyrion and Jon/Arya will be at odds with each other and we can still get that. Maybe on the show their enmity is because of Tyrion's betrayal and Sansa's possible death.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

As for the S7 scripts, the scripts state what exactly it is that Tyrion takes away from his realization that Cersei's pregnant (and it's not that he needs to cut a deal with her to place that child on the throne), and that Cersei miscarries. So there's no mystery there.

 

For one, I think the script says that the scene ends 'ambiguously'. For another, this whole plot gives me a headache because of how nonsensical the whole thing is. So Cersei and Euron apparently plan in advance that no matter what Jon and co. show them, Euron should pretend like he is going to leave. Euron then sees an undead wight, still follows Cersei's plan and leaves. Then Cersei foresees that Jon will not agree to her request and pretends to leave in a huff. Cersei also predicts that Tyrion will follow her to convince her of the threat and so just waits till Tyrion meets with her and then fools him and goes back and fools the rest of them. Like damn! Cersei is more of a 3ER than Bran at this point. She knew exactly what each person there was going to do. She is playing 4D chess here.

Maybe Tyrion's betrayal is not even related to Cersei's pregnancy or their discussion there. Who knows with D and D. The way these guys write, I am sure there will be some convoluted, nonsensical reason for why he does so.

Edited by anamika
GraceK

GraceK

12 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

So how do we think they will drop the Jon parentage bomb in s8?  Will Bran and Sam tell Jon privately, or will they go for maximum drama and have Bran spill it in front of everyone in a great hall meeting?  Although it would be terrible for Jon to find out in front of everyone, from an entertainment perspective I kind of hope they go for the group reveal.  There surely has to be a disastrous group meeting where Glover call Dany a foreign whore and Tyrion Lannister scum etc., Dany is blamed for the NK having a dragon, and Royce bangs on about Targs being untrustworthy.  Seems like the perfect opportunity to Bran to interject with a "speaking of Targs...".  Someone could even provide Bran with his moment on a silver platter by saying something about Rhaegar raping and kidnapping Lyanna, leading him to a "well, actually...." revelation

That would be pretty funny actually. So here’s what I’m wondering and maybe you guys can help me out. Why is it so important for Bran to be given this information? Season 6 all of his flashbacks with the original Three eyed raven  are all clues leading up to the Jon is a Targaryen reveal. If Bran has a specific mission when it comes to the NK, then it seems to be that Jon’s parentage is apparently pretty important part of that...especially with his insistence in season 7 that he has to tell Jon. 

Is this purely for exposition purposes or does Jon really being Aegon really important to the endgame?

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Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

(edited)
15 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

So how do we think they will drop the Jon parentage bomb in s8? 

 

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Is this purely for exposition purposes or does Jon really being Aegon really important to the endgame?

Maybe they'll milk it for drama* but imo the most important when it comes to Jon's parentage is him riding a dragon (and I mean it literally, not as in "Dany"). With the all-out war, it should be very important to get the two dragons operational in two different places. I think that's where Jon being a Targ and people knowing about it will be important for the end game. Tyrion was scared shitless after he freed Rhaegal and Viserion, no way anyone would have the idea to try anything with Dany's babies unless Targ blood is involved.

*Dany expected to marry her brother. There were aunt/nephew couples in every Great House of Westeros including the Starks. I think Jon might have some "Oh crap" moment, but I don't think it will last, he never thought of Dany as a relative before the fact, or act. As for a competition as rightful heir, if I rely on the letter ("he loved her, and she loved him") and the baby anvils of 7x07, it's a non-issue.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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glowbug

glowbug

50 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

Maybe they'll milk it for drama* but imo the most important when it comes to Jon's parentage is him riding a dragon (and I mean it literally, not as in "Dany"). With the all-out war, it should be very important to get the two dragons operational in two different places. I think that's where Jon being a Targ and people knowing about it will be important for the end game. Tyrion was scared shitless after he freed Rhaegal and Viserion, no way anyone would have the idea to try anything with Dany's babies unless Targ blood is involved.

*Dany expected to marry her brother. There were aunt/nephew couples in every Great House of Westeros including the Starks. I think Jon might have some "Oh crap" moment, but I don't think it will last, he never thought of Dany as a relative before the fact, or act. As for a competition as rightful heir, if I rely on the letter ("he loved her, and she loved him") and the baby anvils of 7x07, it's a non-issue.

I think there has to be some significance to Jon being a legitimate Targaryen otherwise why make him legitimate at all. So long as he has Targ blood he can ride a dragon so I think it will have implications for who ends up on the iron throne, be it Jon, himself, or his child with Dany. 

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FemmyV

FemmyV

I can't imagine Tyrion having any reason to betray Dany, outside of a triple cross where he might have made a deal with Cersei to pull a double cross, only to actually betray Cersei in the end. Whatever deal he might have cut with Cersei, he can't possibly expect her to keep her word. It also would be disastrous to turn on Dany before the NK army was dealt with.

Then there's all the supposed fake endings that were shot.

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SeanC

SeanC

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM said he has always known what Tyrion, Jon and Arya's arcs were going to be, but we now know with some certainty that he will deviate from those arcs based on the show: Tyrion and Jon will not fall in love with Arya, and Arya will not fall in love with Jon. So that statement should be taken with a grain of salt.

I think you can attribute GRRM's statement to potentially two factors:

1)  To GRRM, it feels like he's known the ending all along, given that he's been immersed in the series for a quarter century at this point, or;

2)  Saying that he's known the ending all along sounds better, and since he wasn't expecting anybody to be able to see the proposal letter, nobody could contradict him on it.

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Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

23 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think there has to be some significance to Jon being a legitimate Targaryen otherwise why make him legitimate at all. So long as he has Targ blood he can ride a dragon so I think it will have implications for who ends up on the iron throne, be it Jon, himself, or his child with Dany. 

It could be! Or it's a red herring because the wheel will be broken and the IT destroyed in the end.

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Eyes High

Eyes High

  • Author
On 2/17/2018 at 11:40 PM, anamika said:

So both Jaime and Tyrion are going to achieve redemption? Poor Cersei - the only Lannister undeserving of redemption it seems. IMO, it looks like Jaime and Tyrion are going on opposite paths in the books - with Jaime possibly heading towards redemption and Tyrion heading in a darker direction.

The show has already implicitly spoiled that Tyrion's "darker" direction is something that he'll pull out of, since D&D chose to skip over that element of his character arc in the show.

 

Quote

He pretty much became a villain for me with his actions in the last book. GRRM has called him a villain. The same as the Hound and Theon.

He gave Sandor and Theon shots at redemption, so it stands to reason that Tyrion will get one, too. Furthermore, it's hard to take GRRM calling Tyrion, Sandor, or Theon "villains" seriously, when you've got truly monstrous characters like Tywin, Gregor Clegane and Ramsay running around in the same series. 

 

Quote

We don't know how much he is going to deviate from those arcs though? The end result of the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle seems to be a deadly rivalry between these characters - Tyrion and Jon/Arya will be at odds with each other and we can still get that. Maybe on the show their enmity is because of Tyrion's betrayal and Sansa's possible death.

An arc isn't the end result, though; it's the journey. Tyrion and Jon can't have always had the same arc as GRRM suggests, since they're not going to fall in love with Arya in ASOIAF or in the show (and likewise for Arya), and this love triangle seemed to be central to their arcs in the original outline.

 

21 hours ago, SeanC said:

In terms of castmember locations, Emilia's in New York visiting Rose (they haven't been seen together in a long time), though apparently will be leaving shortly; Sophie is or was vacationing in the Maldives with Joe.

(Via /Freefolk) Sophie just posted on Instagram from the Maldives, and Kit was spotted in Belfast again today.

Sophie hasn't been seen in Belfast since January 26th. As for what she did film in January, user /BlueRoseofWinterfell at /Freefolk claimed Sophie filmed in Belfast after the Golden Globes at the same time as Arya, Tyrion, Missandei and Gilly's actors. (I thought Nathalie Emmanuel wrapped filming last year, so who knows?)

WindyNights

WindyNights

On 2/18/2018 at 8:48 AM, GraceK said:

That would be pretty funny actually. So here’s what I’m wondering and maybe you guys can help me out. Why is it so important for Bran to be given this information? Season 6 all of his flashbacks with the original Three eyed raven  are all clues leading up to the Jon is a Targaryen reveal. If Bran has a specific mission when it comes to the NK, then it seems to be that Jon’s parentage is apparently pretty important part of that...especially with his insistence in season 7 that he has to tell Jon. 

Is this purely for exposition purposes or does Jon really being Aegon really important to the endgame?

Actually, you're misunderstanding what is going on. TEC wasn't showing Bran clues about Jon's parentage. In fact, he didn't seem to want Bran to find out about it. We see that because we expect Jon's parentage to be Rhaegar + Lyanna. 

 

What is going on is that TEC is showing Bran that honor doesn't matter only winning does. So win the fight at all costs.

 

"Remember that you are a Stark, comport yourself with dignity at the Vale, and try to stay out of fights...but if you have to fight, win." - Rickard Stark, The Door

 

Read this: 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/7a2p88/spoilers_extended_if_you_have_to_fight_win_the/

.....

Say what you will about D&D, or the Tower of Joy fight being a let down, or the dialogue not matching the excellence of the book dialogue, but this principle hits the nail on the head of a common element that runs through both the books and the show, and generally encapsulates GRRM's greater thesis on war and battle. Simply put, honor does not win wars. Heroism and bravery, though necessary on some personal level to risk one's life, also does not win wars and battles. What wins (other than the basic ingredients of men, weapons, and dragons) is ruthless pragmatism, trickery, and sacrifice.

 

 

tldr; The Three Eyed Raven's walks through the past were not truly about Jon's parentage. The Three Eyed Raven was trying to teach Bran the importance of winning at all costs, even if it means acting dishonorably or sacrificing people.

GraceK

GraceK

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Actually, you're misunderstanding what is going on. TEC wasn't showing Bran clues about Jon's parentage. In fact, he didn't seem to want Bran to find out about it. We see that because we expect Jon's parentage to be Rhaegar + Lyanna. 

 

What is going on is that TEC is showing Bran that honor doesn't matter only winning does. So win the fight at all costs.

 

"Remember that you are a Stark, comport yourself with dignity at the Vale, and try to stay out of fights...but if you have to fight, win." - Rickard Stark, The Door

 

Read this: 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/7a2p88/spoilers_extended_if_you_have_to_fight_win_the/

.....

 

 

 

 

 

I have to say this is a fascinating concept that I never considered before. So do you think Jon has nothing to do with the endgame then? Or he just has to be deceitful to win?

ElizaD

ElizaD

59 minutes ago, GraceK said:

If GOT is inspired from LOTR, isn’t it obvious that Jon Snow is Aragorn? So doesn’t that give hope that Jon will be king in the end?

Im genuinely Interested in you guys thoughts.

I always end up thinking 1. if Jon won't be king, what's the point of making him legitimate and having him Caesared so that his resurrection leaves him technically free of his NW oath? If he only needs to father Queen Dany's baby, ride a dragon and die, he can do all those things while remaining a bastard (which so many readers keep on insisting is central to the themes of his identity arc as written by GRRM) and dealing with being an oathbreaker for the sake of the greater good (choices having consequences, another supposedly big theme in ASOIAF). But 2. if he does live and becomes King Jon Snowstarkaryen, what's the point of killing him when GRRM has whined about Gandalf's return and post-AGOT has his own problems with fake deaths and now resurrections as well, which water down the supposed lethality of Westeros as established by Ned's (aka faux-protagonist dad-mentor's) death? Either way, I can't help but feel that the resurrection was a bad idea. If it frees Jon to become king, well, there would have been less ridiculous ways of achieving that goal. And if he dies a second time, why turn main character death, the thing ASOIAF is celebrated for, into a joke for no plot gain?

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GreyBunny

GreyBunny

1.  I think the point of making him legitimate is to show that he could become king if he wanted to but, because of who he is as a person, he'll make a different choice.  Contrast with Quentyn who thinks he's the hero of a fantasy story because he's a prince and has the right bloodlines and he has to follow through with the role of the hero and get the girl.  He doesn't realize until too late that he's in a horror story, he's not the hero, and his bloodlines don't matter. 

2.  Jon's resurrection in the book will tranform him in some substantial way, particularly in giving him some abilities to fight the Others.  The TV show is inconsistent in showing the cost of magic.

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Meredith Quill
Message added by Meredith Quill

Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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