Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

The North did not fight in the Dance of Dragons.  😑 

House Targaryens - Blacks.

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They did make that argument. Tyrion made it twice. Both figured Jon wouldn't marry his Aunt and even if he did Dany wouldn't accept co-rule and basically crush Jon under her thumb anyway.

They didn't make the argument to Jon and Dany.

Again:

Quote

It's almost as if a marriage alliance to join competing claims has never been done or entertained in this world.

Or that Tyrion advised Dany to dump Daario in Essos to make herself available for just such a marriage alliance.

Just now, GrailKing said:

House Targaryens - Blacks.

😑

Again: the North did not fight in the Dance of Dragons. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by ursula

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

They also have all the wars that the Targs got them into, Dance of Dragons, and other wars, so yes it's 300 years of history.

Please. The north chose a side and sent grey beards, a force of 2k men because they didn't need more mouths to feed during the winter. By the time Cregan Stark made it south with a large host, the Dance of the Dragons was over and done.

Edited May 6, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[chrisvee]

21 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I agree 99 %, But Sansa staying away from Danny, and gave Tyrion in her mind a better option with Jon.

Jon's naive of the politics, Sansa isn't.

Yes exactly — Sansa’s part of the problem as Tyrion points out.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

They didn't make the argument to Jon and Dany.

Tyrion has bought this up repeatedly but for some reason, nobody else wants it.  The further this show gets away from the books, the more it pushes this eras sensibilities upon it's characters and the story is clearly suffering cuz of this.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

They didn't make the argument to Jon and Dany.

Again:

😑

Again: the North did not fight in the Dance of Dragons. 

Yeah your Right they came at the end, Cregan then killed the ones responsible for Aegyn 2  death.

Pact of Ice and Fire, that didn't happened.

My mistake, but the North still got involved.

[chrisvee]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes she does, she mentions the history that caused pain and hardship for the north more than once, in speaking to Jon, and Dani.

It's all about safety and self rule for her, Family, Home and the north; the south and the Targs screwed them over royaly, being good servants of the crown got them nothing, whether it was Targ, or Baratheo, or Lannisters.

All the Stark children want to be free — Jon longs to be above the wall with the wildings, Bran already found it by being subsumed by the 3ER, Arya is going to wander the earth if she survives her list, and Sansa wants to sever the North from the rest of the kingdom.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

Yes exactly — Sansa’s part of the problem as Tyrion points out.

Sansa's fighting for her people, and using words, Jon's family she be foolish not to want him in charge.

If she can do it without loosing northern blood good for her, she tried to keep them home Jon went against them.

Dani, Cersei what are they doing?

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Pact of Ice and Fire, that didn't happened.

My mistake, but the North still got involved.

Cregan Stark managed to be on the winning side without ever seeing battle; got rid of all the unwanted mouths in the North by marrying them off to Southern widows; went home with a beautiful bride; and still managed to boss around the people who actually won the war for the Blacks. 

If by getting involved, you mean they got everything they wanted? Yes.

If any house "won" the Dance of Dragons, it was the Starks. Claiming that as an example of how the Starks "suffered" under the rule of the Targaryens is ridiculous. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by ursula

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes she does, she mentions the history that caused pain and hardship for the north more than once, in speaking to Jon, and Dani.

It's all about safety and self rule for her, Family, Home and the north; the south and the Targs screwed them over royaly, being good servants of the crown got them nothing, whether it was Targ, or Baratheo, or Lannisters.

This is revisionist history. The Lannisters and LF created the situation in the north. They are the reason the north collapsed like that. Them, Theon. But let's start with darling Sansa who had a hand in her father's downfall because she was so in love with Joffrey.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Who's watching Winterfell if Sansa winds up with Tyrion? Arya's long gone and has already proven that she won't be tied down and there must always be a stark in winterfell

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not there. I still think Sansa ends up in a Queen Elizabeth I situation, the "virgin" queen, married to the North. 

Sadly my dream of having all the Sticks together again is fading. I think Sansa ends up alone in Winterfell, Jon goes North to the Free Folks, Arya goes wondering and, I'm not sure on Bran. I don't see a setup for Bran as leader of some counsel. 

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Tyrion is still a Lannister. I don’t see Sansa settling down with him and living happily ever after. Her beloved North wouldn’t stand for it. You think the Tully’s would be okay with it? Or the Vale? Nope. 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Hence why I asked who's settling in winterfell? Only reason Sansa would go through with that is for politicial reasons.

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

She doesn’t need to marry Tyrion for political reasons. At this stage, he brings nothing to the table. Also, unless D and D decide to change everything about her, she ain’t leaving Winterfell. If she were a real person, I’m sure she’d remind you that she won the Battle of the Bastards and she took back Winterfell, her home. She isn’t going anywhere. 

It’s show canon that the only reason ride or die for the North, politically savvy Lady of Winterfell Sansa doesn’t think they’d work out is his loyalty to Dany. If she doesn’t consider any of the other stuff a dealbreaker, it isn’t.

[ShellsandCheese]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

This is revisionist history. The Lannisters and LF created the situation in the north. They are the reason the north collapsed like that. Them, Theon. But let's start with darling Sansa who had a hand in her father's downfall because she was so in love with Joffrey.

This so much! Lots a revisionist history. And maybe that’s Sansa’s problem; she’s over compensating for the fact that her stupidity and selfishness got her dad killed. In my opinion, Sansa is still a child playing at a grown up game. Luckily the showrunners are doing stupid shit to advance the plot the way they want because otherwise from where I’m standing both Dragons would be dead, Dany and Co would have been wiped out on their little foray to parlay with Cersei and 20,000 fresh legged Gold Company soldiers would be marching on Winterfell. Sansa thinks she’s smart but she’s really not. 

[GrailKing]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

This is revisionist history. The Lannisters and LF created the situation in the north. They are the reason the north collapsed like that. Them, Theon. But let's start with darling Sansa who had a hand in her father's downfall because she was so in love with Joffrey.

Ned caused his own downfall, goes to Cersei, threatens her, he had no ship, didn't get the kids out before going.

Cat takes Tyrion.

 her hand had nothing to do with his death, just her being a prisoner.

You're talking Series, I'm going back to Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark and Dani's father, not just the series, so Sansa does have history on her side .

[chrisvee]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa's fighting for her people, and using words, Jon's family she be foolish not to want him in charge.

If she can do it without loosing northern blood good for her, she tried to keep them home Jon went against them.

Dani, Cersei what are they doing?

Dani honestly believes she’s saving everyone; classic hubris. Cersei is just nuts.

[GrailKing]

Before I forget, Sansa sent Theon out as a Stark, made me choke up, along with Sam and Edd, Dani and Jorah and Arya with Dondarrian.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GrailKing

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

You're talking Series, I'm going back to Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark and Dani's father, not just the series, so Sansa does have history on her side .

Well that's not 300 years of Targaryen history. It's events that happened before Sansa was born and had literal no impact on her. You'd think that her time as a hostage/child bride by the Lannisters would be fresher on her mind than a dead grandfather and uncle she never knew 

By that logic anyway, you'd think she'd have a bigger reaction to the fact that the aunt they died "rescuing" was never in need of rescue at all. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

But let's start with darling Sansa who had a hand in her father's downfall because she was so in love with Joffrey.

7 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

And maybe that’s Sansa’s problem; she’s over compensating for the fact that her stupidity and selfishness got her dad killed.

This makes a lot more sense than what we're presented. Unfortunately, it's against the show's canon as it retconned Sansa betraying Ned to Cersei. (Although that would have been more reason for the angst/feud between her and Arya in season 7 than a coerced letter she had already sent to the North and wasn't even technically a secret - but naturally, they whitewashed Sansa's complicity in Ned's death).

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

Well that's not 300 years of Targaryen history. It's events that happened before Sansa was born and had literal no impact on her. You'd think that her time as a hostage/child bride by the Lannisters would be fresher on her mind than a dead grandfather and uncle she never knew 

By that logic anyway, you'd think she'd have a bigger reaction to the fact that the aunt they died "rescuing" was never in need of rescue at all. 

I also said with the last 20 years of fresher history.

It had a damn impact on her house and country

Seeing that she point blank reminded Jon of it in 7-1 and 7-2 it's burned into their history.

No one knows that until maybe this episode.

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I also said with the last 20 years of fresher history.

It had a damn impact on her house and country

If we're going by showtime, then the last 20 years are still post-Targs. 

Fresher history is House Stark nearly being wiped out by the Lannisters and House Bolton of Sociopaths being given the North. The North losing lives and heirs fighting against the Lannisters. Sansa herself being held hostage and raped. etc.

But sure it's the Targs that wrecked the North.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ursula

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

If we're going by showtime, then the last 20 years are still post-Targs. 

Fresher history is House Stark nearly being wiped out by the Lannisters and House Bolton of Sociopaths being given the North.

The fact that her grandfather and uncle are fresh in her mind even in 7-1 and 7-2 is the main reason she doesn't trust Dani, she knows the damn history, Targs, Lannister, and she's aware of the prior Bolton history too, not just this recent event.

She's basing everything on what shes been through and house histories, and Dani's house isn't a beacon of hope as she sees it.

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

The fact that her grandfather and uncle are fresh in her mind even in 7-1 and 7-2 is the main reason she doesn't trust Dani, she knows the damn history, Targs, Lannister, and she's aware of the prior Bolton history too, not just this recent event.

She's basing everything on what shes been through and house histories, and Dani's house isn't a beacon of hope as she sees it.

So would she rather Dany go back across the sea and have Cersei as queen and be subjected to Cersei's whims of wanting to subjugate the North? Nobody's giving North independence, at least she has an in with Dany . 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Oscirus

[ursula]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

The fact that her grandfather and uncle are fresh in her mind even in 7-1 and 7-2

So basically because of "history" Sansa dislikes Dany but her own living memory of the events leading to deaths of her father, mother, 2 brothers, kidnap, rape and torture... are irrelevant with her dealings with Lannisters...

In fact the reason why she can't "make it work" with the husband she was forced to marry isn't because she was forced to marry him after her brother was murdered by his father and his body was desecrated... it's because of Dany and "history". 

On the other hand, this is kind of consistent. Sansa said that she is grateful that she got raped and abused so it makes sense that she has fond feelings towards the Lannisters.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

So would she rather Dany go back across the sea and have Cersei as queen and be subjected to Cersei's whims of wanting to unite the North? Nobody's giving North independence, at least she has an in with Dany . 

she wants the lannisters dead, and then Danni can go back to essos.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

On the other hand, this is kind of consistent. Sansa said that she is grateful that she got raped and abused so it makes sense that she has fond feelings towards the Lannisters.

What BS, she told the hound if she didn't have the horrible experience she may still be a little bird.

And she didn't go with him because how he threaten her with a dagger, and drunk as hell.

[anamika]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

On the other hand, this is kind of consistent. Sansa said that she is grateful that she got raped and abused so it makes sense that she has fond feelings towards the Lannisters.

The writing on this show, damn.

Book one Sansa: Tattles all of Ned's plans to Cersei Lannister because she wants to be queen. Ned loses his head, Jeyne gets sold off to LF and she gets trapped in KL.

Season 8 Sansa: Tattles Jon's secret to Tyrion Lannister because she would rather Cersei be queen than Dany.

The fact that Sansa hates Dany - the women who Jon loves dearly and who saved the North with her armies and dragons - more than the frigging Lannisters is just something.

I am guessing Sansa and Tyrion are going to plot together now?  I am still not seeing Friki's leaks about 'Tyrion betraying the Starks' in anything that's happened 4 episodes in.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Book one Sansa: Tattles all of Ned's plans to Cersei Lannister because she wants to be queen. Ned loses his head, Jeyne gets sold off to LF and she gets trapped in KL.

Season 8 Sansa: Tattles Jon's secret to Tyrion Lannister because she would rather Cersei be queen than Dany.

Sansa didn't know ned's plans, Cersei wasn't the primary person she was going to to ask to speak to her father; Cersei knew before Sansa got there because LF and Janos slynt, she just didn't know when.

Sansa asking for the Queen to speak to her father was stupid on her part, but not malicious.

Cersei took advantage of that situation. 

[Oscirus]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

she wants the lannisters dead, and then Danni can go back to essos.

But she aint getting that so this all or nothing game of hers aint gonna work. She can either have Dany and bend the knee or Cersei and independence till Cersei decides shes done with that. 

[GrailKing]

Just now, Oscirus said:

But she aint getting that so this all or nothing game of hers aint gonna work. She can either have Dany and bend the knee or Cersei and independence till Cersei decides shes done with that. 

We don't know that yet, But Cersei looks like dead girl walking, Dani won't be on the throne, dead maybe, up north maybe, but not queen.

[Umbelina]

Sansa spent a lot of time with Cersei.  I think when she looks at Dany, she sees another Cersei.

She told Tyrion because it was important information that he needed to know before going into a great war.

Jon was a little bitch to even care that Dany was ordering him not to tell anyone, hello!  Red flags dude? 

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

We don't know that yet, But Cersei looks like dead girl walking, Dani won't be on the throne, dead maybe, up north maybe, but not queen.

We only know that because we have access to spoilers, but realistically, whats the best she could hope for by openly opposing Dany like this?

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sansa spent a lot of time with Cersei.  I think when she looks at Dany, she sees another Cersei.

Sansa should look in a mirror . She’s a less interesting, less charismatic, wannabe Cersei with none of the good one liners.

[anamika]

"She’s too strong for him. She’ll bend him to her will.” -  What kind of shit dialogue is this?

Apparently this episode is called 'The last of the Starks'. I can't think of why? Unless it's about the Starks turning into the Lannisters with their hatred of Dany and trying to plot against her.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Sansa should look in a mirror . She’s a less interesting, less charismatic, wannabe Cersei with none of the good one liners.

Not even close.

Cersei is a murderous monster who doesn't care who gets killed.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

We only know that because we have access to spoilers, but realistically, whats the best she could hope for by openly opposing Dany like this?

She's fighting for what she thinks is right for the north, no matter how it's cut, Danni is fighting for a chair, and manipulating Jon to keep his bastard status.

That both Cersei ( Tywins line ) die and Dani goes looking for a red door.  If she, Arya, Bran and Jon and the north survive, then she did what was promised to the north, with out getting her hands bloody, well about time a Stark figured out how the game is actually played.

Of the three players, she's the better option for her people.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Sansa should look in a mirror . She’s a less interesting, less charismatic, wannabe Cersei with none of the good one liners.

I don't think she gives a shit about one liners.

Yeah she's staying under enough to survive and get her people independence.

Flashy gets you killed.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

"She’s too strong for him. She’ll bend him to her will.” -  What kind of shit dialogue is this?

Apparently this episode is called 'The last of the Starks'. I can't think of why? Unless it's about the Starks turning into the Lannisters with their hatred of Dany and trying to plot against her.

Maybe just the last living Starks, as leaf said the wolves will out last us all, but eventually they will leave too.

Maybe after years of peace and change.

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She's fighting for what she thinks is right for the north, no matter how it's cut, Danni is fighting for a chair, and manipulating Jon to keep his bastard status. 

Sansa's basically planted the seed in Tyrion's mind about Jon being the rightful heir and then let them all go off to fight - including Northern soldiers and Jon. Knowing this is going to bring about conflict and chaos - just when they all needed to be united against Cersei.

As D&D say in the behind the scenes , she's like LF at this point - Chaos is a ladder.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not even close.

Cersei is a murderous monster who doesn't care who gets killed.

And you comparing Daenerys to her is insulting. 

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa's basically planted the seed in Tyrion's mind about Jon being the rightful heir and then let them all go off to fight - including Northern soldiers and Jon. Knowing this is going to bring about conflict and chaos - just when they all needed to be united against Cersei.

As D&D say in the behind the scenes , she's like LF at this point - Chaos is a ladder.

Jon may or may not know of it he and Davos are traveling by horse, what if Dany burns shit before he gets there.

Maybe he does find out and he kills Sansa and not Dani, we don't know yet.

Just now, GraceK said:

And you comparing Daenerys to her is insulting. 

Well if Dani goes on a rampage, it won't be insulting it will look like facts to the people there.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

And you comparing Daenerys to her is insulting. 

I didn't.  I said that's what I think Sansa is thinking when she looks at her with those long looks.  "I already met someone like you, I won't fall for that again."

[anamika]

Quote

Martin discussed the main points of the ending with HBO many years ago and everyone on both sides has said these will remain in place, but the author admits there will still be some variations: "On certain secondary characters there may be big differences.”

He also admits this primarily due to the increasingly overdue final two books in the series: "Some of the deviation, of course, is because I’ve been so slow with these books. I really should’ve finished this thing four years ago — and if I had, maybe it would be telling a different story here."

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die

Since @Bannon kept wondering how Euron's fleet got there undetected, this is for you 🙂

Edited May 6, 2019 by anamika

[Oscirus]

36 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She's fighting for what she thinks is right for the north, no matter how it's cut, Danni is fighting for a chair, and manipulating Jon to keep his bastard status.

That both Cersei ( Tywins line ) die and Dani goes looking for a red door.  If she, Arya, Bran and Jon and the north survive, then she did what was promised to the north, with out getting her hands bloody, well about time a Stark figured out how the game is actually played.

Of the three players, she's the better option for her people.

Or she causes a civil war between the two factions attacking cersei, Northern army suffers heavy casualties and Cersei wins due to her machinations, then Cersei comes down hard on a weakened north like shes been planning to.  For someone who has as many cards as she does, Sansa sure is shit at playing the game if she thinks this was her best move in the situation

[Bannon]

29 minutes ago, anamika said:

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die

Since @Bannon kept wondering how Euron's fleet got there undetected, this is for you 🙂

Good grief, what an absolute asshole of a writer. There is not enough professional contempt that can be heaped on these jackasses. This is like a piece of shit chef who can't be bothered to try to cook your piece of fish correctly.

[Oscirus]

29 minutes ago, anamika said:

h

They forgot about  Cersei's fleet? wtf was Tyrion yara and Varys doing ?  Especially Yara since that's her friggin uncle they're fighting. Do these writers get that they don't have to dumb down characters to make things happen? Oh my god.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Or she causes a civil war between the two factions attacking cersei, Northern army suffers heavy casualties and Cersei wins due to her machinations, then Cersei comes down hard on a weakened north like shes been planning to.  For someone who has as many cards as she does, Sansa sure is shit at playing the game if she thinks this was her best move in the situation

Giving Tyrion a better option if Dani goes on a rampage isn't wrong.

It's not Sansa's actions causing this upcoming disaster; it's Cersei's foolish actions of killing Missandei and Euron killing Rhaegal, she wanted the armies to rest Dani demanded they go now, Jon sided with Dani.

It ends with Sansa receiving a scroll of the ambush and encountering Jaime about the action.

Her play has nothing to do with this up coming battle, has to do with the aftermath and her positioning the Starks to be in a strong position.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They forgot about  Cersei's fleet? wtf was Tyrion yara and Varys doing ?  Especially Yara since that's her friggin uncle they're fighting. Do these writers get that they don't have to dumb down characters to make things happen? Oh my god.

HBO really ought to sue this shitbag for fraud.

[lucindabelle]

If the ending is supposed to be bittersweet, what on earth can that mean? I've heard that dragons have to go out of the world.

If Drogon dies next week, I'm skipping the finale. If Drogon dies PERIOD this show has been a waste of time. Dragons being board at end of season one was one of the best things I've ever seen on television. If they come up with some nonsense like it's magic and could create white walkers I am DONE. This is a world with the Lord of Light. With Faceless Men. With greyscale zombies. Dragons are not the problem.

If Sansa really deliberately tried to get Dany killed, pulling a Littlefinger, I'm happy with show killing her.

[Raachel2008]

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die

Since @Bannon kept wondering how Euron's fleet got there undetected, this is for you 🙂

What a fucking idiot! Dany kind of forgot? Dany and Tyrion and Varys and Jon and Misandei and Greyworm and literally everyone who knew about the fleet?

For fuck’s sake. This is just pure incompentence. They spend millions so people can come up with different dresses and hair styles to show the changes in Sansa’s, Dany’s and Cersei’s lives but they cannot come up with a military advisor to help them find a way to make this crap remotely plausible? Fuck them. Fuck them all.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Raachel2008

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

What a fucking idiot! Dany kind of forgot? Dany and Tyrion and Varys and Jon and Misandei and Greyworm and literally everyone who knew about the fleet?

For fuck’s sake. This is just pure incompentence. They spend millions so people can come up with different dresses and hair styles to show the changes in Sansa’s, Dany’s and Cersei’s lives but they cannot come up with a military advisor to help them find a way to make this crap remotely plausible? Fuck them. Fuck them all.

Nah, nobody's this stupid in our actual world. This creep is a fucking thief, stealing HBO's money, and the time of several hundred million people around the world.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

If Sansa really deliberately tried to get Dany killed, pulling a Littlefinger, I'm happy with show killing her.

How is she doing that ?

By giving a better option to Tyrion, in Jon, Jon's family she isn't and Arya point blank told him so in the Godswood.

Sansa didn't kill Missandei, Sansa didn't kill Rhegal, Sansa didn't let Euron and Dani know of Cerseis pregnancy, all Sansa did was ask Tyrion why Dani and posed a what if there's a better option and what if it's Jon.

As the scene ends Dani is bloody raged, none of it is on Sansa, it's on Cersei and her minions, and Dani will explode, not to be a villain, but she may be perceived that way. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by GrailKing
spelling.