Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

He only recognized her when he saw with his own eyes that she is worthy.

That's the most ridiculous part, though. Either he bent the knee because he needs an alliance and knew Dany would eventually want something in return (like most queens do), or because he thinks she'd make an amazing ruler of his people, but he also happens to need an alliance. It's two different issues. They didn't need a new ruler. 

From the leaks it sounds like he's not even trying to sell it, he just keeps repeating they need allies. 

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

My point is that I really don't see any difference between Jon's relationship with Dany in S7 and Northern relationship with her in S8.

The difference is that Dany didn’t know anything about the AOTD and she was the one with all the resources , and Jon had to convince her, and he was going into a situation with no idea at all of what he was getting into.  There was a reason for distrust .

this time, Dany is literally showing up with everything Jon promised, with Jon at her side, and the North alresdy knows about the AOTD which Dany didn’t, and they know Jon, and they Know Cersei, so all things considered, this is a great advantage for them. That’s the difference.

[tangerine95]

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

Because D & D didn't want to depict Jon Snow, the Designated Hero, bending the knee for a woman. Which is why we never actually see Jon literally bending the knee to Dany.

ETA: In the end, it all comes down to bad writing. You asked:

But the problem is that they're not being political. They're being petty. Politics is recognizing there are no permanent friends or enemies, just permanent interests. (Paraphrasing. I will cite whoever said this later).

If the North+Starks were being political, they won't antagonize the defacto General of the Army they need to survive before she's won the war for them. After the Battle of Dawn + Whatever Battle Against Cersei is fought, they can hash out the particulars of Northern Independence and figure out if they can get it, or if not, if they can get a good bargain of their vassal-dom.

That they're not doing this but concentrating on stuff like if Jon knelt out of love or duty is not politics. It's not logical. It's not even consistent. (re: what we just talked about wrt to the Bolton "rule" of the North and the Northern Lords showing pragmatism about that sorry state of affairs that they appear to have completely lost now). 

It's just... bad writing. 

Most of the frustrations with the characters and plots are because of the writing being ... frankly, ridiculous. 

That's exactly my issue.I don't care if they love her.I just think it's illogical that they are being picky and focusing on did Jon bend the knee for love or not when they literally need her for survival.I don't think it's understandable in that position.Even if they think she's a monster,aren't they like worried she'll wage war on them if Jon doesn't bend the knee?Their attitude to me just seems like they want her help but to remain independent,remain distrustful of her for being a Targ,not offer help in return in any way

1 minute ago, nikma said:

But that's true. Why he bend the knee in E6 and not E5 or E4?

Well, Jon is his best friend and Daenerys killed his brother.

Because in ep 5 she didn't just lose a dragon to save his life.I don't think it's fair to say he bend the knee for love.It was established that Jon was attracted to her from the start and he didn't let it affect his decision.He was shown to take the time to get to know her as a queen,they even had Tormund tell him Mance not bending the knee was a mistake.

Well Sam was able to tell Jon to ask Boltons for help when Jon struggled with it,Davos is working with Tyrion who killed his son,Dany will be working with Jaime who killed her father.Its exactly what they all need to do now because of the circumstances.Trying to get Jon to press his claim only would lead to problems for the necessary alliance which is why I think Sam is in the wrong here.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

Focusing on did Jon bend the knee ffor love or not when they literally need her for survival

Well, Jon knew they need her for survival and he refused to bend the knee for most of S7.

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Davos is working with Tyrion who killed his son,Dany will be working with Jaime who killed her father

After lot of time passed. Sam has to work with Daenerys immediately after he found out that she killed his brother.

5 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Because in ep 5 she didn't just lose a dragon to save his life

So Jon needed a moment where he will see that Dae erys deserved his support. The North needs the same.

[Colorful Mess]

7 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Well Sam was able to tell Jon to ask Boltons for help when Jon struggled with it,Davos is working with Tyrion who killed his son,Dany will be working with Jaime who killed her father.Its exactly what they all need to do now because of the circumstances.Trying to get Jon to press his claim only would lead to problems for the necessary alliance which is why I think Sam is in the wrong here.

They did overthrow the Boltons eventually... even while they had to play nice for the short term.

"Bend the knee" and live, and rise again with blade in hand, is said by Asha and Val in the books. I think in Ep 2, Sam and Sansa will work behind the scenes to reassure the Northerners that this is what they will do. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[nikma]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

The difference is that Dany didn’t know anything about the AOTD and she was the one with all the resources , and Jon had to convince her, and he was going into a situation with no idea at all of what he was getting into.

And even after he did convince her to help in E4 he refused to bend the knee. So northern independence was more important to him than Dany's help.

And he even wanted to return to WF without her.

So now, when we have Sansa and the North act even less stubborn than Jon did, that creates outrage in the fandom.

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

And even after he did convince her to help in E4 he refused to bend the knee. So norther independence was more important to him than Dany's help.

And he even wanted to return to WF without her.

So now, when he have Sansa and the North act even less stubborn than Jon did, that creates outrage in the fandom.

First, he didn’t want to go to WF without her, his first instinct was to run back and he said he would prefer her help but if she still wouldn’t , he would just fight with the army he had. 

Secondly, he treated her with the utmost respect the entire time, even when he wasn’t bending the knee, he didn’t openly antagonize her, and I don’t see how the North are being less stubborn when she has already shown up with help and weapons and they are still being pricks. 

But this is going in circles and we are getting no where. Agree to disagree.

[tangerine95]

Just now, nikma said:

Well, Jon knew they need her for survival and he refused to bend the knee for most of S7.

After lot of time passed. Sam has to work with Daenerys immediately after he found out that she killed his brother.

So Jon needed a moment where he will see that Dae erys deserved his support. The North needs the same.

I think @GraceK explained it pretty well.Jon went to Dany who was complete stranger he didn't know at all except their families have bad history with each other.His one assurance was Tyrion who already kept the whole bend the knee part out of his letter and who he hasn't seen in years.

The north has the assurances of their chosen king who himself proved his worth to them.They have Dany literally showing up with all her forces.They have the information from Bran that the NK now has a dragon and the wall fell down.They're in an even more urgent situation.They're not gonna get a better deal basically ever.

I do think some differences exist in Jon's reluctance to bend the knee and theirs.I also thought Jon refusing to bend the knee definitely didn't help his case with Dany.It pretty much undermined his message that nothing but the NK should matter.Like if he wasn't going to give up his throne then why should she.

I don't think time is that relevant when it's something like a son Davos loved or Jon's brother he was extremely close to.I think they just get what's a stake and I honestly thought Sam did too but the leaks on that are confusing so we'll see.

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

It pretty much undermined his message that nothing but the NK should matter.Like if he wasn't going to give up his throne then why should she.

She hadn't been chosen as queen by anyone yet in Westeros. Jon was elected. She wanted him to bend the knee before she even met him. It was a little power trip she was having.

But I agree, realistically monarchs want stuff in exchange. I just hope Jon saw that too and gave it to her, for the North. Not for love. 

[GraceK]

I love it.

Daenarys: loses her Dragon after saving there dumbasses from a bunch of ice zombies, opens herself emotionally about how they are her kids and she can’t have any others, says she isn’t sorry about it because she finally understands what they are up against.   

“ We are going to destroy the Night King and his army. And we'll do it together. You have my word.” 

Jon :Inner Monologue : She’s obviously in love with me and wants my big dick energy. Clearly the only way to get her to agree to fight the NK is to bend the knee. It’s not like I heard anything she just said. Then I can sex her up, manipulate her emotionally,use her to save the north, and steal her dragons . That’s what Ned would want me to do, and what a real Stark would do! 

“ my queen!!!!” 

Political Jon theory in a nutshell 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[tangerine95]

6 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

She hadn't been chosen as queen by anyone yet in Westeros. Jon was elected. She wanted him to bend the knee before she even met him. It was a little power trip she was having.

But I agree, realistically monarchs want stuff in exchange. I just hope Jon saw that too and gave it to her, for the North. Not for love. 

She was chosen as queen by three different regions of westeros.She had support from within,it wasn't a power trip to want all of them to eventually bend the knee.It's basically just how conquest works.

Jon was elected but its not the norm in Westeros tho.Even he had to fight a battle to even get in a position to be elected.It wasn't exactly like he campaigned for it.The Starks were already back in power by the time that election happened and the only person he got elected over is Sansa.And then he still expected kids of his dead enemies to bend the knee to him.

[Colorful Mess]

Just now, tangerine95 said:

She was chosen as queen by three different regions of westeros.She had support from within,it wasn't a power trip to want all of them to eventually bend the knee.It's basically just how conquest works.

Conquest is basically a power trip. That she was on.

And they chose her to be her allies, but she hadn't gotten the throne yet. Jon secured the throne because his people directly elected him to it. Dany was trying to win through conquest. 

You either win by conquering and forcing people to kneel, doing something that earns people's loyalty so that they kneel, or forming alliances through marriage. Westeros has had several different models to attain power.

[tangerine95]

Just now, Colorful Mess said:

Conquest is basically a power trip. That she was on.

And they chose her to be her allies, but she hadn't gotten the throne yet. Jon secured the throne because his people directly elected him to it. Dany was trying to win through conquest. 

You either win by conquering and forcing people to kneel, doing something that earns people's loyalty so that they kneel, or forming alliances through marriage. Westeros has had several different models to attain power.

Was it a power trip then that Jon and Sansa wanted the home they lost back so they took it back by conquest?I mean they were rejected by the majority of their current subjects,they had an army made up of what westeros considers savages and they used force to take it.It's what Dany is doing except the home she lost is much bigger.

She didn't force Dorne,Iron Islands and the reach to bend the knee,it was done peacefully so I don't see the issue is tbh?Some allies she got by exchanging favors,some she earned loyalty,some lost to her in battle.All pretty standard ways for westeros

[Colorful Mess]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

“ We are going to destroy the Night King and his army. And we'll do it together. You have my word.” 

But first she has to make sure Cersei promises stuff to her. Not very reassuring. 

[Colorful Mess]

13 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Was it a power trip then that Jon and Sansa wanted the home they lost back so they took it back by conquest?I mean they were rejected by the majority of their current subjects,they had an army made up of what westeros considers savages and they used force to take it.It's what Dany is doing except the home she lost is much bigger.

She didn't force Dorne,Iron Islands and the reach to bend the knee,it was done peacefully so I don't see the issue is tbh?Some allies she got by exchanging favors,some she earned loyalty,some lost to her in battle.All pretty standard ways for westeros

No, don't even play that. We're talking about Jon and Dany. Jon didn't go to war to put HIMSELF on the throne. Dany wants to go to war to put HERSELF on the throne. 

"except the home is much bigger" <---this isn't helping your argument to make her look humble.

Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Reach want to help her conquer Westeros and take it back with FIRE AND BLOOD.

They had to be calmed down by Tyrion because he was trying to do it peacefully. He at least knows that overwhelming use of force doesn't win loyalties in the LONG TERM for the Targaryen dynasty. Ruling through dragons DOESN'T WORK long term because its only one form of power - the kind that is used to intimidate. The author has basically spelled it out in interviews.

Tyrion's plan didn't work, so now she's conquering. She wasn't on a power trip when she was high above them, cooking thousands of people in their armor by shouting a single word? She was humble and a peaceful and a worthy queen for the North then? 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[tangerine95]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

No, don't even play that. We're talking about Jon and Dany. Jon didn't go to war to put HIMSELF on the throne. Dany wants to go to war to put HERSELF on the throne. 

"except the home is much bigger" <---this isn't helping your argument to make her look humble.

Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Reach want to help her conquer Westeros and take it back with FIRE AND BLOOD.

They had to be calmed down by Tyrion because he was trying to do it peacefully. He at least knows that overwhelming use of force doesn't win loyalties in the LONG TERM for the Targaryen dynasty. Ruling through dragons DOESN'T WORK long term because its only one form of power - the kind that is used to intimidate. The author has basically spelled it out in interviews.

Tyrion's plan didn't work, so now she's conquering. She wasn't on a power trip when she was high above them, cooking thousands of people their armor by shouting a single word? She was humble and a peaceful and a worthy queen for the North then? 

Why does she need to be humble and what's the issue with putting herself on the throne?I don't even understand what this line of argument is even tbh.Even if Jon and Sansa didn't plan for Jon to end up as king they planned to be in charge of WF because their father is Ned Stark and it's their home.They sure weren't going to hold an election where everyone had an equal chance of being elected as lord/lady of WF lol

Her family's legacy and home is the seven kingdoms.They lost it to another house and were killed or exiled.Now she has the power to take it back so she's doing it.It will take a conquest because of course the people on the throne aren't going to just give it back if she politely asks.She's using her weapons which are dragons.

Tyrion failed in every plan he made and he was very obviously conflicted by the desire to keep his family alive.I wouldn't say he's a great example of how to successfully win power.

[GraceK]

19 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

yrion failed in every plan he made and he was very obviously conflicted by the desire to keep his family alive.I wouldn't say he's a great example of how to successfully win power.

Not to mention that Tyrion’s “peaceful “ strategies caused the deaths of Two key allies of Danys , including the slow torture and poisoning of a girl at Cersei’s hand. And the Lannister’s sacking of Highgarden was a slaughter and a pillage of food to be give over to a despot who revels in the slow rape and torture of her enemies. Randall wanted to flog his own men to walk faster and betrayed his own leige lord at the chance to be Warden of the South. 🙄 Dany listened to Tyrion and didn’t even rescue Yara although that was her first instinct, to fly out and destroy Eurons ships. She was fighting with one hand behind her back so she wouldn’t be seen as a mad tyrant , and it cost her valuable allies. 

Her flying into battle at the loot train was way over due. It was enough to terrify Jaime and convince him they had no chance, which If Cersei wasn’t hell bent on ruthlessly winning at all costs, which Dany ISNT, could have ended the war right there. It’s Danys consistent good nature and tendency to help others that is stopping her from claiming the iron throne that some people insist she wants so much. 

Rob Stark went into battle with his dire wolf who viciously ate and tore to pieces the opposing armies and no one blinks an eye. They love when he chomps off the finger of who was it , Umber in the first season?? That’s ok right? The Starks have direwolves who eat and mawl people in defense of their masters, Bran has literally possessed the mind of a mentally handicapped giant to use for self defense, who he is responsible for murdering with his powers, yet Dany can’t use her dragons? 

Dany wants a ceasefire, big deal. She’s still willing to hold off on her “ evil ambition for the Iron Throne” to help save the world. If she decides to continue her pursuit of the throne her ancestors forged, why not? Why can’t she? How does that make her a bad person after she has literally saved the world? The person who is actually evil is the one who is sitting in it currently, not helping at all and actively trying to burn the world down and murder everyone , no matter what happens.

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Why does she need to be humble and what's the issue with putting herself on the throne?I don't even understand what this line of argument is even tbh.Even if Jon and Sansa didn't plan for Jon to end up as king they planned to be in charge of WF because their father is Ned Stark and it's their home.They sure weren't going to hold an election where everyone had an equal chance of being elected as lord/lady of WF lol

Her family's legacy and home is the seven kingdoms.They lost it to another house and were killed or exiled.Now she has the power to take it back so she's doing it.It will take a conquest because of course the people on the throne aren't going to just give it back if she politely asks.She's using her weapons which are dragons.

Tyrion failed in every plan he made and he was very obviously conflicted by the desire to keep his family alive.I wouldn't say he's a great example of how to successfully win power.

I said she's on a "little bit of a power trip" when she demanded Jon bend the knee when he was an ELECTED king. You replied to my post to disagree. But now you're asking why she has to be humble. What do you want her to be, humble but not too humble? It's getting confusing. 

Jon and Sansa were fighting a war because the Boltons killed their brother, raped Sansa, and now occupied the home they grew up in. Ramsay needed to kill all the heirs to WF, so their lives were directly threatened.

Dany is fighting a war because her family was ousted in a justifiable rebellion, and the person who was attempting to assassinate her in Esoss is now dead. She also never grew up in Westeros. 

If she's a conqueror she's taking whatever she wants, even if its not hers, and making other submit to her. This is the legacy of Aegon Targaryen. D&D said she's learning that even as far back as S2, so this is her arc. If she's a peaceful, kind-hearted, politically savvy queen who wields soft power, then she is not a conqueror. 

Tyrion's advice was written like it came directly out of the author's mouth. Dragons are only one form of power, the intimidating kind, but that kind of power is brittle, it only makes people rise against you, eventually.

[GraceK]

It also took centuries for people to rise up against the Targaryens, and it took one particularly mad King in particular. And it wasn’t that long ago. There have been many Targaryens were who good rulers and it’s not like the rulers since have been  better . There’s a good argument to be made that things were better under the Targaryen rule before Aerys and would have been good under Rhaegar, if things didn’t go to shit. Robert and Joffrey, and certainly  Cersei haven’t been great examples . I’ll never understand this belief that GRRM hates the Targaryens or is pushing an anti Targaryen agenda. They are all he writes about and his main hero is a hidden pure blood mystical prince of two magical blood lines whose love interest is a pure blood dragon riding queen. 🙄

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK

[Colorful Mess]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

It also took centuries for people to rise up against the Targaryens, and it took one particularly mad King in particular. And it wasn’t that long ago. There have been many Targaryens were who good rulers and it’s not like the rulers since have been  better . There’s a good argument to be made that things were better under the Targaryen rule before Aerys and would have been good under Rhaegar, if things didn’t go to shit. Robert and Joffrey, and certainly  Cersei haven’t been great examples . 

The "good" Targaryens are a drop in the bucket, because the foundation of their dynasty is a metaphor for nuclear weapons. That is literally what they stand for. Using them or threatening to use them.

And now every few of them or so just happen to be madmen with nuclear weapons. 

And here's a fun game...you won't know which one is gonna lose it.

And because they were so certain that dragons would solve all their problems, they formed no innovative structures of government to replace them when the dragons died. GRRM addressed this when people asked why Westeros' institutions were so weak. It was because they sucked playing politics with their wits, they'd just rather threaten people with dragons. And start unnecessary wars with each other all during that 300 year time span. 

ASOIAF is not sending the message that nuclear weapons are fantastic, that they are the best way to rule, and that only the pure blood special people can do it. This just happens to be what Targaryens think about themselves too so I try not to support their backwards thinking even more.

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I said she's on a "little bit of a power trip" when she demanded Jon bend the knee when he was an ELECTED king. You replied to my post to disagree. But now you're asking why she has to be humble. What do you want her to be, humble but not too humble? It's getting confusing. 

Jon and Sansa were fighting a war because the Boltons killed their brother, raped Sansa, and now occupied the home they grew up in. Ramsay needed to kill all the heirs to WF, so their lives were directly threatened.

Dany is fighting a war because her family was ousted in a justifiable rebellion, and the person who was attempting to assassinate her in Esoss is now dead. She also never grew up in Westeros. 

If she's a conqueror she's taking whatever she wants, even if its not hers, and making other submit to her. This is the legacy of Aegon Targaryen. D&D said she's learning that even as far back as S2, so this is her arc. If she's a peaceful, kind-hearted, politically savvy queen who wields soft power, then she is not a conqueror. 

Tyrion's advice was written like it came directly out of the author's mouth. Dragons are only one form of power, the intimidating kind, but that kind of power is brittle, it only makes people rise against you, eventually.

I don't even get what you mean by humble.In what way exactly was she supposed to humble herself?I didn't even bring up her being humble.

Or why she should care if Jon was elected?She's trying to take back the seven kingdoms,Jon was king of one so they had an issue.They peacefully resolved it.

I'm sure they Frey's and Boltons also would say their rebellion was fair because Robb broke his oath.The mad king was a monster sure but innocent kids were murdered as well in this justified rebellion.The family responsible for it was living in Dany's family castle,sitting on their throne,sending assassins after her and her unborn child.You can find the Starks reclaim WF to be more sympathetic than Dany and her taking back the throne but it's the same thing.And both are totally valid in the world of the show.

Do you really think in GoT it's possible to be a soft queen who always peacefully gets power?I honestly don't think so.

Maybe in your opinion Tyrion's advice is exactly right and what should be done but I don't agree.Imo the intention to do things as peacefully as possible is great but he wasn't realistic about how peaceful they could actually because he wanted his family protected.We'll see,if Friki is right then we'll probably see his season 7 actions in a different light by the end.

[Colorful Mess]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Or why she should care if Jon was elected?She's trying to take back the seven kingdoms,Jon was king of one so they had an issue.They peacefully resolved it.

And we're back to the power trip, which I feel like she was on, because she hadn't even met him yet or knew what his people wanted. It just wasn't a good look.

As for the bolded: it's not peacefully resolved until Jon's people agree with his choice.

And Sam is the person to watch. He's the moral center of the show.

[Colorful Mess]

8 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Maybe in your opinion Tyrion's advice is exactly right and what should be done but I don't agree.Imo the intention to do things as peacefully as possible is great but he wasn't realistic about how peaceful they could actually because he wanted his family protected.

I'm talking about the advice he gives her in the scene beside the fire. During the war planning scene, I think he doesn't want thousands of people to die in the firestorms of King's Landing, if she sets off an atom bomb, so he comes up with the blockade plan.

If you think she should conquer with fire and blood and that's going to work out well for her, Valyria and Robert's Rebellion are right there, ready to repeat.

“An empire built on blood and fire. The Valyrians reaped the seed they had sown.”

[anamika]

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe this is just setting the stage for Jon to easily peace out from Sansa and Arya at the end of  the season, because he recognises Dany and their baby as his main family? Whether it’s by DJ leaving it all behind and living the simple life somewhere, or by DJ being in charge in KL etc.    One can certainly understand why Jon would be more then willing to leave his annoying sisters in the dreary North to hang with Dany + baby in the South. I’m sure the love and support will be a nice change from the constant berating he receives up North! Besides, Arya and Sansa will probably be glad to see the back of Jon too.

We will have to see how these scenes play out, but I can see this happening.

Emilia Clarke talked about how they are right now each other's most important relationship. One of the endings I can see is Jon/Dany leaving everything behind and going off to a home with a red door - the only issue is that they are both very duty conscious and abdicating their responsibilities is not something I can see them doing.

But what if they are both just tired of all the infighting, backstabbing and betrayal that comes along with power and just want nothing to do with having power anymore - Jon especially has had to face constant opposition and resentment for pretty much all of his decisions - he even got murdered for it that one time.

I could see them at the end going, fine, you want to rule? Have at it. And just leaving. Dany now has a new baby and has the family and home she's always wanted - she gives up her ambitions - maybe this is what Emilia thinks is so fucked up about Dany's last scene.

In the recent press-junket interview, Emilia was talking about the uniqueness of Dany as a female character who has sought and inhabited a role of power and how women in particular would see this as a female character who is unapologetically asking for power and being given it and dealing with it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/b5a1k8/emilia_clarke_about_power_and_daenerys_in_power/

And I agree - Dany is unique in this and no matter how much D&D/GRRM and fans try to demonize her for it or have the male characters criticize her for doing the same thing the men are doing, her being ambitious and being the most powerful character in one of the most popular shows around the world is refreshing. Emilia likes this about Dany.

Now, Emilia  ends the interview talking about the show ultimately exploring the role of power. So if Dany then gives up her desire to rule in favor of a simple home life - I could see Emilia being not too happy with this.

As for Jon and Arya. I wonder if they disagree over Tyrion. Arya does not trust Tyrion because she can see through him as a FM - if the Tyrion betrayal leak is right.

And she tries to tell this to Jon and Dany. Dany does not like this because Tyrion is her hand and Jon likes Tyrion. So Jon and Arya get into a disagreement about this. I don't know what Sansa thinks of Tyrion - but maybe because of her distrust of Cersei, she too is suspicious of him.

Edited March 26, 2019 by anamika

[bubble sparkly]

I’m quite curious as to how Jon’s parentage reveal will play out with Sansa and Arya now. I seem to recall a spoiler from one of the reputable sites that an emotional scene was going to be filmed in the crypts with Jon and another character. Initially most people thought it would be Arya, but from the trailer it seems that it may be a DJ scene.

I assumed that Sansa and Arya would be quick to reassure Jon that he was still their brother, and the Starks would reaffirm their love and loyalty to each other and the pack etc. However, given all the drama from ep one, and the fact that the Starks look like still having issues in ep 2, I wonder if the parentage bomb will just add to the Starks issues? Maybe Sansa and Arya’s distrust of Jon will only grow when it’s revealed that he’s a Targ? If they already think his emotional attachment to Dany has clouded his judgment, perhaps they think his potential Targ family loyalty to Dany make him even more untrustworthy?

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I’m quite curious as to how Jon’s parentage reveal will play out with Sansa and Arya now. I seem to recall a spoiler from one of the reputable sites that an emotional scene was going to be filmed in the crypts with Jon and another character. Initially most people thought it would be Arya, but from the trailer it seems that it may be a DJ scene.

I assumed that Sansa and Arya would be quick to reassure Jon that he was still their brother, and the Starks would reaffirm their love and loyalty to each other and the pack etc. However, given all the drama from ep one, and the fact that the Starks look like still having issues in ep 2, I wonder if the parentage bomb will just add to the Starks issues? Maybe Sansa and Arya’s distrust of Jon will only grow when it’s revealed that he’s a Targ? If they already think his emotional attachment to Dany has clouded his judgment, perhaps they think his potential Targ family loyalty to Dany make him even more untrustworthy?

Now that would be freakin awesome 😎 talk about an interesting twist if Jon feels so isolated from his family he gets even closer to Dany who embraces him completely and he just goes full on Targaryen!! That would have heads exploding 😂😂😂😂😂 it wouldn’t happen but I wish it would just for the meltdown 

[screamin]

11 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

At the price of the north continuing to live the same life they had as part of the seven kingdoms,if they even manage to survive.And this time their chosen king continues to be warden and their new queen is coming to save them and is willing to convince them she's not a threat.Is it really that high of a price?They sure managed to stay quiet under Bolton rule and most of them even refused the Starks until the whole thing was done and Starks had the power again.

This isn't a powerful kingdom that can be independent and make it.If it's not the NK then it's Cersei and she's also more powerful.Winter is the one thing that kept them safe from her.They need alliances and have nothing to offer a queen except their allegiance.I just don't believe it makes sense or is that understandable for a kingdom in their position to act like that if they're actually aware of the situation they're in.

Cersei is not more powerful now. After the wars the South has been through and the North's alliance with the Vale, they're in a more even position.

As for the North being quiet under Bolton's rule - the North has PTSD. They went to war to get revenge and freedom from the tyrant who murdered their beloved lord. They enjoyed some success - until their new Stark king stopped thinking with his head and started thinking with his heart (or dick, whichever). Remember that - triggers are a problem for PTSD sufferers. We all know what happens next...the Lannisters slaughter the Northerners and give them to the psychotic Boltons, where they hunker down and just aim at surviving.

Then Jon comes with his rousing La Pasionaria message, "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees!" Dying (horribly) is exactly what they'll do if they rebel against Ramsey and fail - but some of them DO bravely rebel anyway. The rest follow the advice some have given here - that surviving under a tyrant is better than dying - and stick with Ramsey.

Against all odds Jon succeeds, and the North is rewarded with a king who is not a tyrant, who lets them have a say in their ruling! There's hope. They even trust him enough to believe in the NK when they've only got secondhand reports of such a creature of legend.

Then Jon leaves. And when he comes back, he drops the news on them that he's not the King anymore. They have a new ruler now of whom they know nothing except she has dragons and comes from a family of subjugators and tyrants, and her Hand is a Lannister and they're now allies with Lannisters  (trigger warning) and a Lannister army is coming North (trigger warning) to help! And while he's saying these dubious things, he's giving every sign when he's with Dany that he's thinking with his heart instead of his head. (Trigger warning!)

I think it's totally predictable and understandable that Lyanna and her ilk would be dismayed, and say so. And I think it's weird that people are castigating her now for not immediately kneeling down and accepting her new unknown ruler when her accepting Jon's warcry "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees," and fighting agaist tyranny was praiseworthy not long ago. Now she's supposed to just forget all that and meekly and silently accept a new ruler who for all she knows is Ramsey with dragons? Expecting that reaction at the start is expecting WAY too much. Jon mismanaged this.

Edited March 26, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

Iain Glen revealed in a recent interview his parting storyboard gift from D&D: Jorah in the gladiatorial fighting at Daznak’s Pit. 

That still leaves Gwendoline Christie, Richard Dormer, and Rory McCann as the only actors whose gift storyboards were from S8.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Now that would be freakin awesome 😎 talk about an interesting twist if Jon feels so isolated from his family he gets even closer to Dany who embraces him completely and he just goes full on Targaryen!! That would have heads exploding 😂😂😂😂😂 it wouldn’t happen but I wish it would just for the meltdown 

That would be pretty funny.  To be fair though, given all the drama in the first few eps there will probably be some initial tension between Dany and Jon when she learns the parentage bomb.  There's probably a good chance that most of the issues are resolved after 8x03 though, whether it's Dany/Jon, Dany/the Northern idiots, or Jon/Arya/Sansa etc.

[nikma]

7 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

The north has the assurances of their chosen king who himself proved his worth to them.

The king who is in love with Daenerys and "love is the death of duty".  

7 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

They're not gonna get a better deal basically ever.

They had a better deal in E6 of last season when Dany decided to help without bending the knee.

[nikma]

46 minutes ago, screamin said:

.

Then Jon leaves. And when he comes back, he drops the news on them that he's not the King anymore. They have a new ruler now of whom they know nothing except she has dragons and comes from a family of subjugators and tyrants, and her Hand is a Lannister and they're now allies with Lannisters  (trigger warning) and a Lannister army is coming North (trigger warning) to help! And while he's saying these dubious things, he's giving every sign when he's with Dany that he's thinking with his heart instead of his head. (Trigger warning!)

This is perfect summary why it wouldn't make any sense that there isn't some kind of unhappiness with the whole thing in the North.

And I would like to quote a good post from another forum about this topic.

"The whole point of this story is that no one has the ability to put aside their histories, feuding and political motivations until it's too late and the AOTD are on top of them. I know the fans just want everyone to side together against this threat without any qualms but that's not what this story is about. You're supposed to be frustrated that everyone can't just see the big picture because many of them aren't entirely capable of doing so."

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[tangerine95]

35 minutes ago, screamin said:

Cersei is not more powerful now. After the wars the South has been through and the North's alliance with the Vale, they're in a more even position.

As for the North being quiet under Bolton's rule - the North has PTSD. They went to war to get revenge and freedom from the tyrant who murdered their beloved lord. They enjoyed some success - until their new Stark king stops thinking with his head and starts thinking with his heart (or dick, whichever). Remember that - triggers are a problem for PTSD sufferers. We all know what happens next...the Lannisters slaughter the Northerners and give them to the psychotic Boltons, where they hunker down and just aim at surviving.

Then Jon comes with his rousing La Pasionaria message, "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees!" Dying (horribly) is exactly what they'll do if they rebel against Ramsey and fail - but some of them DO bravely rebel anyway. The rest follow the advice some have given here - that surviving under a tyrant is better than dying - and stick with Ramsey.

Against all odds Jon succeeds, and the North is rewarded with a king who is not a tyrant, who lets them have a say in their ruling! There's hope. They even trust him enough to believe in the NK when they've only got secondhand reports of such a creature of legend.

Then Jon leaves. And when he comes back, he drops the news on them that he's not the King anymore. They have a new ruler now of whom they know nothing except she has dragons and comes from a family of subjugators and tyrants, and her Hand is a Lannister and they're now allies with Lannisters  (trigger warning) and a Lannister army is coming North (trigger warning) to help! And while he's saying these dubious things, he's giving every sign when he's with Dany that he's thinking with his heart instead of his head. (Trigger warning!)

I think it's totally predictable and understandable that Lyanna and her ilk would be dismayed, and say so. And I think it's weird that people are castigating her now for not immediately kneeling down and accepting her new unknown ruler when her accepting Jon's warcry "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees," and fighting agaist tyranny was praiseworthy not long ago. Now she's supposed to just forget all that and meekly and silently accept a new ruler who for all she knows is Ramsey with dragons? Expecting that reaction at the start is expecting WAY too much. Jon mismanaged this.

Again what options do they have?They're going to die without help and if they trust their chosen king or Bran which it seems like they did at the trial for LF, then they're aware of the danger more than any region in westeros.

Jon could have not bent the knee but they can't know that because it was a private moment with Jon and Dany so it doesn't factor into their reactions.Wouldn't the reasonable thing to assume be that if you want help from a more powerful monarch then you have to offer something in return?I mean didn't the north fight with Robert to put an end to the Greyjoy rebellion and independence?So these people would know independence from the Seven Kingdoms isn't so easily won and accepted by the other rulers.

If he came back and told them something like we'll fight her war first then I'd understand all the doubt but she's doing all the helping.

They are supposedly afraid of a tyrant yet they have no problems openly being against her right in front of her face apparently and being obviously bitter.Like if they're so afraid,I doubt they would be doing that.Their feelings will be taken into account  since by the end of season 7 Jon and Dany were aware they have to show a united front and that she's coming to help.I don't believe that will be enough until the NK shows up tho.

I just feel like their position isn't that understandable and about PTSD or something.Maybe I'd have more sympathy if more then half of these people didn't fight for Ramsey and weren't as Sansa even put it windwanes.They're not being reasonable in their expectations imo.And it's been two seasons of that so it's annoying.

[nikma]

For years some fans where saying that D&D will make classical battle between good and evil in the last season because they are talentless hacks and now we know that won't be the case. Human drama will be part of the show until the very end and it seems that the entire culmination of the story will be about Starks and Lannisters and Tyrion's death.

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Jon could have not bent the knee but they can't know that because it was a private moment with Jon and Dany so it doesn't factor into their reactions.

If they don't know that, that they have even stronger argument. They could say that Dany is there just to conquer them and that she is no better than Cersei, she would let them all die if they haven't recognized her as a queen.

Not a very inspiring person.

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

59 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

That would be pretty funny.  To be fair though, given all the drama in the first few eps there will probably be some initial tension between Dany and Jon when she learns the parentage bomb.  There's probably a good chance that most of the issues are resolved after 8x03 though, whether it's Dany/Jon, Dany/the Northern idiots, or Jon/Arya/Sansa etc.

There will be drama with the wight bait Northerners, with Arya we dont know yet. I've said it before Maisie's last interview, I don't trust actors' words pre-season when they're hyping their role. Maybe Arya "calls out Jon" in 8x01 =  just tells him something along the lines of "Sansa has a point, too" and that's it. If Arya refused the role of mediator that Jon asks her to play, Friki would have mentioned it, wouldn't he? If she accepts to help, it means she isn't up against Jon's decision or up against Dany.

As for Jon/Dany, Frikidoctor seemingly answered to a comment on YT that she was taking the reveal surprising well and the relationship survives. (Caution though, no link was given; the person who mentioned it doesn't seem like a couple stan, but you never know).

The AOTD should indeed end the drama (it'll probably end the North at the same time, oops). Let's hope that Robin or Edmure, those beacons of wisdom and intelligence, don't feel they have to take over for the Northerners after 8x03 LOL.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[tangerine95]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

If they don't know that, that they have even stronger argument. They could say that Dany is there just to conquer them and that she is no better than Cersei, she would let them all die if they haven't recognized her as a queen.

Not a very inspiring person.

Okay if they need a literal saint or superhero in order to allow the person to help them then they're truly in some serious problems cause they won't find that person.Dany is doing the job of their queen and they want her to do that but won't acknowledge her as one.Doesn't seem fair to me or reasonable to expect.

Edited March 26, 2019 by tangerine95

[screamin]

21 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

They are supposedly afraid of a tyrant yet they have no problems openly being against her right in front of her face apparently and being obviously bitter.Like if they're so afraid,I doubt they would be doing that.

Who came to them and told them not to be afraid of a tyrant, to rebel even if a horrible death is certain if they fail? Jon did, to tell them to rebel against Ramsey. And Lady Lyanna was brave enough to do that. Now that bravery that was a virtue when she was fighting for Jon is a bad thing that you're castigating her for. Is that fair to her?

I think it's very significant that the showrunners got rid of the character of Glover and chose the character of Lady Lyanna to deliver the message of the North's unhappiness with Jon's actions. Glover didn't fight Ramsey for Jon's sake. Any complaint of his about Jon giving his rule to a possible tyrant would have no weight - he had no problem sticking with Ramsey, a KNOWN tyrant. We the TV Viewers would know that anything he says is a cowardly villain's point of view, thus easily discounted.

But the showrunners chose Lyanna to express the North's unhappiness. She fought for Jon from the start, risking death by flaying to rebel against Ramsey and make Jon King. If anyone has earned the right to speak frankly to Jon, and be credibly brave enough to do so even in the face of a dangerous and possibly tyrannical Dragon queen, it's her. I think the showrunners chose her quite deliberately to speak for the North. We're not supposed to consider her a cowardly villain. We're supposed to take her message seriously. IMO, the showrunners are using little Lyanna, the stalwart brave symbol of the North resistance, to tell us - We the TV Viewers - that Jon really did cock up the introduction of Dany to the North, at a really critical time. Things are only going to get worse from there.

Edited March 26, 2019 by screamin

[Advance35]

Quote

I think it's totally predictable and understandable that Lyanna and her ilk would be dismayed, and say so. And I think it's weird that people are castigating her now for not immediately kneeling down and accepting her new unknown ruler when her accepting Jon's warcry "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees," and fighting agaist tyranny was praiseworthy not long ago. Now she's supposed to just forget all that and meekly and silently accept a new ruler who for all she knows is Ramsey with dragons? Expecting that reaction at the start is expecting WAY too much. Jon mismanaged this.

And Tyrion having a public office, "Hand of the Queen" isn't making things better considering all House Lannister has done to the North.  Then the cherry on top will be Jaimie Lannister's arrival (and from appearances, position of prominence) who was smuggly killing Northerners for Seasons 1 and 2.  I imagine her optics would hardly make the Northerners/Sansa want to say "Huzzah it's Dany. Long may she reign."

I doubt we'll get it (because we are no longer at a part of the story where nuance is explored, just sword, sword, slash, slash, dragonfire) but wouldn't anyone express some curiosity or concern about what happened to this New Queen's LAST allies.

Dorne and House Tyrell both got dealt death blows as soon as they allied with Dany.  Is she really such a great alliance assuming they live through the AoD?

Quote

And people here act like there are no hundreds examples from real history that people are sometimes too stubborn and won't let past go away and make alliances for the greater good.

This I would believe, especially in a story like Game of Thrones (before it became 100% Sci-Fi).  Many characters I'd imagine are a "To the bitter end" type.  We know Cersei is happy to watch the whole world ice-over, if she can't rule it,   If she's can't she'll kill as many as she can on her way down.   Tyrion is willing to play on opportunity and his plans have *coincidentally* led to the fall of regions/Houses that were rivals to House Lannister (Dorne/House Tyrell).  After all Sansa suffered just to get back to Winterfell (Ramsay) and as hard as she pulled to reclaim it (Jon didn't want to fight the Boltons at first, she had to brow beat him into it, then dangle the Rickon carrot) I would think it was sloppy writing if she was "Dany, My Sister from another Mister.  Welcome to one of your new regions. Must say, Love the coat."

I have know doubt Sansa will get in line, but I can't fault her for making dolls of Jon and Dany's likeness and proceeding to stick pins in them.  House Lannister is the reason Westeros (the North specifically) is in the state it's in.  Now they are to follow one into battle (Jaimie) and know that the second highest authority in the land (Tyrion, Hand of the Queen) is also from House Lannister.  I'd imagine they consider it all a kick in the face, a common day analogy would be a criminal winning the lottery.  Most would think, "What do you know, apparently crime does pay."

Edited March 26, 2019 by Advance35

[bubble sparkly]

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've said it before Maisie's last interview, I don't trust actors' words pre-season when they're hyping their role. Maybe Arya "calls out Jon" in 8x01 =  just tells him something along the lines of "Sansa has a point, too" and that's it. I

Of definitely, Maisie and Sophie have a history of saying kind of weird things lol.  Sometimes I don't know if they are purposely trolling or if they just make shit up and run with it.  Maisie's comment could be something that does not play out on screen at all lol.

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

The AOTD should indeed end the drama (it'll probably end the North at the same time, oops). Let's hope that Robin or Edmure, those beacons of wisdom and intelligence, don't feel they have to take over for the Northerners after 8x03 LOL.

Oh man, I don't think I could handle another round of people screeching at each other about the AOTD and bending the knee.  Although, I guess it would be funny if the tables turned and the Riverlands people were all like "you Starks/Northerners have no honour...Robb broke his marriage pact....the shit that has happened to us for the past few years is all your fault...we hope the AOTD kills you", and Sansa and the Northern idiots are all "the dead are coming, we need to put aside our differences and work together".  Then poor Jon is just off in a corner like "FML".

[nikma]

I think reaction from Jon and Dany's fans about this whole thing was over the top for months now. They speak like Sansa is acting like Ellaria in that meeting with Jaime. And a lot if straw man arguments are being used.

The North knows that alliance with Daenerys is necessary for them. They knew that in 702. Sansa gives her the North. She follows Jon's decision(decision that will have political consequences in centuries to come that he made all alone).

But that's not enough for some people. They need the North to love Daenerys the moment she appears there. So acknowledging her as a queen is not enough. They need to love her immediately.

And everyone who questions anything Jon did in S7 deserves to die.

Ok.

Edited March 26, 2019 by nikma

[Nightingale]

New Rolling Stone interview with Sophie and Maisie. Something I found interesting:

Quote

For her part, Turner totally cried, “because I cry at everything,” she says. She was particularly moved when Benioff and Weiss presented her with a storyboard of their favorite Sansa scene, which happened to be her very last scene of the entire show. Tur­ner already has it hanging at home; no one’s noticed.

I'm like, 95% convinced Sansa becomes queen now. I already pointed out weeks ago that most of the interviews from the cast and crew seem to be focusing on Sansa during this promo season. Nutter talked about her as a queen in her own right, D&D obviously love her a lot and even some of the actors are suddenly bringing her up.

If you don't like this ending, I think you should start preparing yourself for it anyway.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Nightingale

[Happy Harpy]

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

And people here act like there are no hundreds examples from real history that people are sometimes too stubborn and won't let past go away and make alliances for the greater good.

In current political situation in real world there are countless examples of this.

A lot of people in our world don't even think that climate change is real thing and you act surprised when people in Westeros think politics is more important than AOTD.

And who said they won't acknowledge that? Sansa gives her WF, ffs.

But you ask from them to love her. And that is something she has to earn.

Surprised? Everybody here has been predicting the Northerners' reaction for the whole off-season, even more since the first images of the season and Emma Frost's oh so gracious reception. It isn't surprising, but it's still stupid. IRL or in fiction, if people or characters who are beggars behave as choosers, they'll be called upon it.

I don't think people ask the Northerners to love Daenerys, I personally ask them to respect her and not spit in her face whereas they need her.

28 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think it's very significant that the showrunners got rid of the character of Glover and chose the character of Lady Lyanna to deliver the message of the North's unhappiness with Jon's actions. [...]

IMO, the showrunners are using little Lyanna, the stalwart brave symbol of the North resistance, to tell us - We the TV Viewers - that Jon really did cock up the introduction of Dany to the North, at a really critical time. Things are only going to get worse from there.

Using a fan favorite as a prop to try and get the audience to support the logically unsustainable or the Scrappy is an old TV trick. Maybe most viewers will forget about wight giants, a wight dragon, wight hordes that are going to destroy Castle Black in the same episode, and think that when death knocks at the door, decorum and misplaced ego are so very very important.

Forget Lyanna, D&D should have asked Miss Manners to do a cameo instead.😂

Edited March 26, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

New Rolling Stone interview with Sophie and Maisie. Something I found interesting:

I'm like, 95% convinced Sansa becomes queen now. I already pointed out weeks ago that most of the interviews from the cast and crew seem to be focusing on Sansa during this promo season. Nutter talked about her as a queen in her own right, D&D obviously love her a lot and even some of the actors are suddenly bringing her up.

If you don't like this ending, I think you should start preparing yourself for it anyway.

Queen, who knows, but I definitely thought it was very interesting that Sansa’s last scene was the writers’ favourite of hers. 

[screamin]

33 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

And Tyrion having a public office, "Hand of the Queen" isn't making things better considering all House Lannister has done to the North.

Not to mention that Jon happily demoting himself to "Warden of the North" means that Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the Queen,  now technically outranks Jon in his own former kingdom. The North can't look at that in the absence of other info and NOT feel that Jon got played.

[anamika]

The stupidity is what gets me.

Jon : I need to go meet Dany and make an alliance and get weapons and soldiers to defend the North

North: Don't go Jon. Her father killed your uncle and grandfather.

Jon goes and comes back with dragons, soldiers and weapons.

North: OMG, Is Dany like Aerys II?

I mean.... Like can't these people think and add 2+2 to come up with 4?

Is Jon dead, burned alive, in chains,  a prisoner? No?  Do they think Dany is going to attack them with the soldiers and dragons? No? Then what's the problem?

We just saw in the trailer how the Unsullied and Greyworm with dragonglass armors and spears , and the Dothraki and Jorah are all on the frontlines defending WF - they are all there because of Jon and Dany.

Many Unsullied and Dothraki from Essos are going to die - saving a bunch of worthless people who are more concerned about whether Jon loves Dany than whether they are going to live through the night.

And people still don't seem to be getting it - who outranks whom, who is king, who is queen, who is lady - none of that matters anymore. People are very soon going to realize that death is the great leveler.

29 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

New Rolling Stone interview with Sophie and Maisie. Something I found interesting:

I'm like, 95% convinced Sansa becomes queen now. I already pointed out weeks ago that most of the interviews from the cast and crew seem to be focusing on Sansa during this promo season. Nutter talked about her as a queen in her own right, D&D obviously love her a lot and even some of the actors are suddenly bringing her up.

If you don't like this ending, I think you should start preparing yourself for it anyway.

There's no way Sansa is becoming a Queen of any kind, but this is interesting. Her last scene is the story board they liked best and thought was representative of Sansa's story.

Edited March 26, 2019 by anamika

[Nightingale]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

There's no way Sansa is becoming a Queen of any kind, but this is interesting. Her last scene is story board worthy and an important part of Sansa's story.

What do you mean by "story board worthy"? I thought they made storyboards for the entire episodes (but I'm like Jon Snow when it comes to these things, I know nothing)

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

What do you mean by "story board worthy"? I thought they made storyboards for the entire episodes (but I'm like Jon Snow when it comes to these things, I know nothing)

Yes, I know. I changed my statement to reflect that. Sorry.

[Nightingale]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, I know. I changed my statement to reflect that. Sorry.

No need to apologize.

Sansa as queen of the 7 kingdoms isn't an ending I would like at all, but I think there's too much focus on her this promo season for it to mean nothing. I hope I'm wrong.

[ElizaD]

22 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

I'm like, 95% convinced Sansa becomes queen now. I already pointed out weeks ago that most of the interviews from the cast and crew seem to be focusing on Sansa during this promo season. Nutter talked about her as a queen in her own right, D&D obviously love her a lot and even some of the actors are suddenly bringing her up.

If her last scene is big enough to be her storyboard gift, my first thought was that it's either her death or rebuilding Winterfell. If this beats stuff like Sansa ordering the deaths of Ramsay and Littlefinger, I don't think it will be a quiet character scene, unless it was with her friend Maisie. So, a death scene or Sansa as a leader, either at Winterfell or as regent for the baby Targaryen (IMO much less likely). From interviews over the years I have the impression that Sophie likes having the opportunity to do drama and plotting and shipped Sansa with Littlefinger.

[Nightingale]

3 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

If her last scene is big enough to be her storyboard gift, my first thought was that it's either her death or rebuilding Winterfell. If this beats stuff like Sansa ordering the deaths of Ramsay and Littlefinger, I don't think it will be a quiet character scene, unless it was with her friend Maisie. So, a death scene or Sansa as a leader, either at Winterfell or as regent for the baby Targaryen (IMO much less likely). From interviews over the years I have the impression that Sophie likes having the opportunity to do drama and plotting and shipped Sansa with Littlefinger.

Gifting her a death scene would be cruel, especially when, as you point out, significant moments of her storyline such as executing Baelish and Ramsay exist. It's probably very big.

I also think it could have something to do with that scroll Sophie got as a gift that she carries in her wallet. (That girl better have some good security lol)