Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[screamin]

On 12/12/2017 at 0:04 AM, WindyNights said:

The Vale's going north in the books like the show. That is LF's plan. To capture Winterfell for Sansa Stark.... Daenerys and the Others are going to invade at the same time. I don't think there will be any time to outfit the Vale with any obsidian. 

Stannis does send orders to mine some obsidian to send to him before Dragonstone falls but it's unknown if they got the order before it fell or if they were able to send any even of it did. And would they have sent enough to outfit over 20 k men?

Okay, so once there, the Vale will ally with the North - but the North, which will somehow have obtained obsidian, will refuse to share the only effective weapons with their allies and happily use those allies as zombie-fodder till the Vale army is annihilated, and the Vale will go along with this - why, exactly?

And even if the North somehow convinced the Vale to march against the zombies without obsidian to their slaughter - even from a cold-bloodedly sociopathic tactical POV, it would be an idiotic move for the North, since the death of the Vale army would double the size of the NK army with no benefit to the North.

The supply of obsidian is too small for both armies? Regardless of whether the order of obsidian originates from Jon or Stannis in the books, both of them know enough about military matters to get enough for both hand weapons and arrowheads, and to get enough for as many men as you hope to recruit, not just for the army you have. If you get more men than you expect, either make some of the arrowheads into spearpoints, or keep those men back, because it's worse than useless in this war to get unarmed men killed.

Quote

 

Theres thousands of jars everywhere ready to explode. The fact that they're makes them more volatile not less...And even if you're right, Drogon can just breathe fire in the critical areas to make them blow up. Like the pyromancers are afraid sunlight will make them go off. Dragon flames should be enough.

 

Those barrels have been in underground tunnels for many years under an active and canonically rickety and flammable city - yet never a fire set it off by some cow kicking over a lantern on the way to the slaughterhouse. Seems to argue against the wildfire being so close to the surface. And you posited that the trigger would be under the Red Keep - and still don't explain why Drogon would be attacking the Red Keep if Cersei, as you insist, leaves the city.

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

It's not 100% that the giant in a castle made of snow is LF; it could even be Robyn's doll even though that would seem anticlimatic. The castle of snow also isn't 100% sure to be Winterfell (could be the Eyrie, even though that seems unlikely with it being abandoned due to winter).

I agree the castle LF dies in may not be WF. Honestly, making LF lead an army to WF (even if he left the actual fighting to others) was the most unbelievable thing the show ever did. It just isn't in character for LF to embark on such a venture when he has no military aptitude and thus little control over a battle's outcome. He's more about sitting back and pulling strings to make others get their hands dirty, take the risks, and do the heavy lifting. IMO, LF never leaves the Vale...Sansa defeats him there. As for the castle made of snow - as LF pointed out, when Sansa despaired of making realistic gargoyles out of snow, when a thing is covered with snow, it looks like an unidentifiable blob. When winter comes, the castles in the Vale will be covered with snow, too.

Quote

I note that "Robyn" is still alive and well in the show, where Harry the Heir doesn't exist. I'm not so sure he won't make it in the books.

I've always thought that LF's planned murder of Sweetrobin will be the trigger that will finally move Sansa to turn against him...it would be hilarious if sickly Sweetrobin survived the end of the story.

Looking at those purported leaks - they actually look pretty damned credible to me. Are we allowed to discuss the content here?

Edited December 14, 2017 by screamin

[anamika]

16 hours ago, Edith said:

Well I remember learning about her back in season 6, when an extra from BOB started to publish spoilers. She didn't denied those and when evidence (a picture) was published, she definitely confirmed them.

But in this case, she is saying that she is not even asking her sources. She is just looking at those pages and saying it's false and maybe that's true. But until there's more info, there is a possibility that those spoilers are legit. Besides Sue and WoTW have been wrong about several other spoilers before. Plus they like to hoard spoilers.

I will also mention that before we got some confirmation last year, all those leaks sounded like made up nonsense. I mean, a wight hunt? A wight polar bear showing up? Dead Viserion. Jon being named Aegon! Boatsex while the wall was falling down?!  I think that's why some of us are more hesitant to ignore these leaks this time around no matter how nonsensical they sound.

And as you rightly pointed out, these spoilers are not entirely impossible. I do think Jaime and Cersei will meet one final time and Jaime will strangle Cersei to death before she uses the Wildfire and the mountain retaliates. I don't see Jaime surviving the series. If he has to go out, I think that would be a fitting ending for the character. Cersei has been his story for 6 seasons on the show and they finish the series together.

I expect Winterfell to fall in the books after a WW invasion. Sounds like the Hound, Brienne, Sansa, Arya, Pod and Tyrion flee on a cart. I would think that Arya would be on the frontlines with her Valyrian steel dagger, but I can also see David and Dan  sticking her with Sansa. Also if we are going to get SanSan in the books, and if the show is heading for the same book ending for Sansa, then Sansa and the Hound hanging out together makes sense. No mention of Gendry anywhere.  Since GRRM has ruled out Arya/Gendry, he probably has a separate story line elsewhere.

The Hound and Brienne against the Mountain also makes sense if the mountain kills Jaime. Dany getting pregnant, Bronn getting the twins - more or less expected at this point.

Apparently Isaac is not doing a lot of filming and his only scenes are with Jon and Sam. Nothing new here. I will surprised if Bran has lots to do next season.

The only spoiler that is puzzling is Jon being Cersei's prisoner but this is David and Dan's writing. If they want two characters to interact because they find it interesting, they will make it happen through illogical plot and terrible writing.

So , I am not writing off these leaks yet.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:01 AM, WindyNights said:

And yes, I expect for the Vale to use its fleet to transport its army to the North likely White Harbor.

Just curious here, but what fleet? Have we read about a Vale naval fleet in the books? I don't think that the Arryns or LF have a naval fleet. The last we hear about a fleet was Visenya Targaryen destroying a naval fleet of King of Vale and Mountain during the conquest. I don't see the Vale army going up North.  Just think of the terrain and weather up North in ADwD. How are they going to fight in that? Stannis was burning his starving men to stave off the bad weather. Only the Northerners can fight in that weather. The Vale army and Vale assets like food is most probably staying put and they take on the undead in the south.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:01 AM, WindyNights said:

The Vale's going north in the books like the show. That is LF's plan. To capture Winterfell for Sansa Stark.

White Harbor is busy supporting Rickon as KITN - they are suddenly going to be okay with LF/Sansa and their non-existant fleet landing in White Harbor to capture Winterfell for Sansa?

We have to recognize that LF's plans are pretty terrible for a supposed master player. He thinks that only Sansa is left as heir to the North. Unbeknownst to him, things are moving full speed ahead in the North with the Northern houses doing their own plotting. Robb's will disinherits Sansa and makes Jon King. Manderly is for Rickon. The mountain clans for Arya.

Meanwhile LF is waiting for Cersei to kill Tyrion so that he can announce that Alayne is Sansa. By the time this Sansa/LF plot in the Vale is done, a rightful heir will be ruling in Winterfell and it will not be Sansa.

Edited December 14, 2017 by anamika

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

But in this case, she is saying that she is not even asking her sources. She is just looking at those pages and saying it's false and maybe that's true. But until there's more info, there is a possibility that those spoilers are legit. Besides Sue and WoTW have been wrong about several other spoilers before. Plus they like to hoard spoilers.

I will also mention that before we got some confirmation last year, all those leaks sounded like made up nonsense. I mean, a wight hunt? A wight polar bear showing up? Dead Viserion. Jon being named Aegon! Boatsex while the wall was falling down?!  I think that's why some of us are more hesitant to ignore these leaks this time around no matter how nonsensical they sound.

And as you rightly pointed out, these spoilers are not entirely impossible. I do think Jaime and Cersei will meet one final time and Jaime will strangle Cersei to death before she uses the Wildfire and the mountain retaliates. I don't see Jaime surviving the series. If he has to go out, I think that would be a fitting ending for the character. Cersei has been his story for 6 seasons on the show and they finish the series together.

I expect Winterfell to fall in the books after a WW invasion. Sounds like the Hound, Brienne, Sansa, Arya, Pod and Tyrion flee on a cart. I would think that Arya would be on the frontlines with her Valyrian steel dagger, but I can also see David and Dan  sticking her with Sansa. Also if we are going to get SanSan in the books, and if the show is heading for the same book ending for Sansa, then Sansa and the Hound hanging out together makes sense. No mention of Gendry anywhere.  Since GRRM has ruled out Arya/Gendry, he probably has a separate story line .

Just curious here, but what fleet? Have we read about a Vale naval fleet in the books? I don't think that the Arryns or LF have a naval fleet. The last we hear about a fleet was Visenya Targaryen destroying a naval fleet of King of Vale and Mountain during the conquest. I don't see the Vale army going up North.  Just think of the terrain and weather up North in ADwD. How are they going to fight in that? Stannis was burning his starving men to stave off the bad weather. Only the Northerners can fight in that weather. The Vale army and Vale assets like food is most probably staying put and they take on the undead in the south.

White Harbor is busy supporting Rickon as KITN - they are suddenly going to be okay with LF/Sansa and their non-existant fleet landing in White Harbor to capture Winterfell for Sansa?

We have to recognize that LF's plans are pretty terrible for a supposed master player. He thinks that only Sansa is left as heir to the North. Unbeknownst to him, things are moving full speed ahead in the North with the Northern houses doing their own plotting. Robb's will disinherits Sansa and makes Jon King. Manderly is for Rickon. The mountain clans for Arya.

Meanwhile LF is waiting for Cersei to kill Tyrion so that he can announce that Alayne is Sansa. By the time this Sansa/LF plot in the Vale is done, a rightful heir will be ruling in Winterfell and it will not be Sansa.

The writers don't actually know what happens to the Hound in the books. They've said so themselves in the season 6 commentaries. That rules out SanSan. Even GRRM has talked about his bewilderment with SanSan.

The Vale can always hire a fleet but I presume they have some fleet of their own. And you realize that the Vale has way more resources at their disposal than Stannis' small and weathered army, right? Like it's not even close.

I mean what's the point of Sansa having eyes within the Vale if you don't imagine she's going to take the Vale to the north? Just to kill LF and then what? Stay put?

 

White Harbor is busy supporting Rickon as Lord of Winterfell with Stannis as their overlord. That's the deal that Wyman made to Davos. I don't even think Wyman is even going to survive the Siege of Winterfell considering that the last time we saw him, he was bleeding like a stuck pig.

 

You also seem to be unaware that the timelines aren't matched between POVs. Like Jon is assassinated months after the last Sansa chapter. Sansa could literally be on her way to the North when Jon is assassinated.

[WindyNights]

7 hours ago, screamin said:

Okay, so once there, the Vale will ally with the North - but the North, which will somehow have obtained obsidian, will refuse to share the only effective weapons with their allies and happily use those allies as zombie-fodder till the Vale army is annihilated, and the Vale will go along with this - why, exactly?

And even if the North somehow convinced the Vale to march against the zombies without obsidian to their slaughter - even from a cold-bloodedly sociopathic tactical POV, it would be an idiotic move for the North, since the death of the Vale army would double the size of the NK army with no benefit to the North.

The supply of obsidian is too small for both armies? Regardless of whether the order of obsidian originates from Jon or Stannis in the books, both of them know enough about military matters to get enough for both hand weapons and arrowheads, and to get enough for as many men as you hope to recruit, not just for the army you have. If you get more men than you expect, either make some of the arrowheads into spearpoints, or keep those men back, because it's worse than useless in this war to get unarmed men killed.

Those barrels have been in underground tunnels for many years under an active and canonically rickety and flammable city - yet never a fire set it off by some cow kicking over a lantern on the way to the slaughterhouse. Seems to argue against the wildfire being so close to the surface. And you posited that the trigger would be under the Red Keep - and still don't explain why Drogon would be attacking the Red Keep if Cersei, as you insist, leaves the city.

I agree the castle LF dies in may not be WF. Honestly, making LF lead an army to WF (even if he left the actual fighting to others) was the most unbelievable thing the show ever did. It just isn't in character for LF to embark on such a venture when he has no military aptitude and thus little control over a battle's outcome. He's more about sitting back and pulling strings to make others get their hands dirty, take the risks, and do the heavy lifting. IMO, LF never leaves the Vale...Sansa defeats him there. As for the castle made of snow - as LF pointed out, when Sansa despaired of making realistic gargoyles out of snow, when a thing is covered with snow, it looks like an unidentifiable blob. When winter comes, the castles in the Vale will be covered with snow, too.

I've always thought that LF's planned murder of Sweetrobin will be the trigger that will finally move Sansa to turn against him...it would be hilarious if sickly Sweetrobin survived the end of the story.

Looking at those purported leaks - they actually look pretty damned credible to me. Are we allowed to discuss the content here?

Not enough obsidian to go around. I expect Daenerys to outfit her troops with obsidian first before giving it out to the North.

In the books, there won't be enough time to mine for obsidian like in the show. Wights also aren't weak to obsidian in the books just fire. You only need enough to kill the few White Walkers with them.

I already told you that Bran would do it. He knows about the wildfire under King's Landing. He knows where to aim the dragonfire at.

Presuming that the Vale goes north, LF wouldn't lead the Vale army. Harry the Heir would lead it. It sets up a confrontation between Harry and Jon who both look very much like their uncles but instead of being friends, they're antagonists to each other.

 

Anyways, the castle made of snow is very clearly Winterfell because that's what Sansa was building at the Eyrie and also because there's an association between a giant's heads and Winterfell.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The writers don't actually know what happens to the Hound in the books. They've said so themselves in the season 6 commentaries. That rules out SanSan. Even GRRM has talked about his bewilderment with SanSan.

I agree that SanSan may not happen in the books. But GRRM has also mentioned that he added a little SanSan here and there to please their fans. It may or may nor happen in the books. It may or may not happen on the show. I was just pointing out that the Hound and Sansa hanging out could indicate that they meet, interact and suddenly Arya may end up asking the Hound about Sansa's good heart! 

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Vale can always hire a fleet but I presume they have some fleet of their own. And you realize that the Vale has way more resources at their disposal than Stannis' small and weathered army, right? Like it's not even close.

I mean what's the point of Sansa having eyes within the Vale if you don't imagine she's going to take the Vale to the north? Just to kill LF and then what? Stay put?

From where are they going to hire a naval fleet to take an army of some 20,000 - 30,000 men North? If it was that easy to hire fleets, Dany would have left Essos long ago.  And what are these resources that the Vale has that allows their men to withstand the harsh weather conditions that Stannis' men cannot? Here's the difference between how the Northerners and Southerners handle the current winter conditions in ADwD

Quote

The southerners looked a sorry lot, Asha thought—gaunt and hollow-cheeked, some pale and sick, others with red and wind-scoured faces. By contrast the northmen seemed hale and healthy, big ruddy men with beards as thick as bushes, clad in fur and iron. They might be cold and hungry too, but the marching had gone easier for them, with their garrons and their bear-paws.

And this is about Stannis' march on Winterfell:

Quote

They march with five thousand men, and estimate that the hundred league march will take fifteen days.[5] During the first two days they cover forty-six miles, but only manage to cover fourteen miles the third day. On the fourth day, it starts to snow, significantly slowing down the march.[5] The northmen have an easier time during the march than the fifteen hundred southrons. Nonetheless, the harsh weather results in losses for Stannis, due to the cold, and later also starvation. At the fifteenth day of the march, the army has not even covered half the distance.[5] On the thirty-third day of the march, they arrive at a crofters' village a few days from Winterfell. Though Stannis plans to continue the march the next day, when daylight arrives the army finds itself snowbound.[5]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell

This is in ADwD. But you think that somehow the Vale army can do better and sail from the Vale to White Harbor and then march from White Harbor to Winterfell to join the Stannis/Winterfell plot in the next book?

As for Sansa, it has long been my belief that she is either entangled in the politics/story in the south with LF and Varys going up against each other (GRRM has hinted at this, mentioning that LF knows more about Varys' plans than the other way around) or if she does play a role in the war against the Others, then the Others and the undead will be marching south.  Dany's prophetic dreams seems to suggest a showdown with the Others on the trident:

Quote

That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Which indicates that the Others reach that far. The trident flows near the Vale. Which means that the Vale army can fight there. With people fleeing the North, the Vale may prove to be a safe haven.

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

White Harbor is busy supporting Rickon as Lord of Winterfell with Stannis as their overlord. That's the deal that Wyman made to Davos. I don't even think Wyman is even going to survive the Siege of Winterfell considering that the last time we saw him, he was bleeding like a stuck pig.

I see. So as soon as Sansa/LF shows up at White Harbor, the Manderlys are just going to wholeheartedly throw their support behind LF's plot to give Winterfell to Sansa? Poor Rickon. BTW, Wyman Manderly is doing his own plotting and even if he is dead, Wylla Manderly is still alive and would remember her father's promises. And while Stannis may yet win the battle for Winterfell, he may not be alive for long.

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

You also seem to be unaware that the timelines aren't matched between POVs. Like Jon is assassinated months after the last Sansa chapter. Sansa could literally be on her way to the North when Jon is assassinated.

I know that the latter half of ADwD occurs after AFfC, but months?

So if Sansa is months behind Jon, are you saying that in the next book we will need to have months of Sansa storyline while Jon lies dead at the wall and we get nothing from the Stannis/Theon/WF/Mance/Roose/Manderly/Davos/Rickon story?  So the whole of TWoW is going to be just Sansa while everyone else waits for her to finish the Harry the Heir plot and catch up to their timeline? What about George moving the Battle of Ice from ADwD to TWoW? Is that going to happen after months of Alayne plot in the next book?

Edited December 14, 2017 by anamika

[Edith]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

But in this case, she is saying that she is not even asking her sources. She is just looking at those pages and saying it's false and maybe that's true. But until there's more info, there is a possibility that those spoilers are legit. Besides Sue and WoTW have been wrong about several other spoilers before. Plus they like to hoard spoilers.

I will also mention that before we got some confirmation last year, all those leaks sounded like made up nonsense. I mean, a wight hunt? A wight polar bear showing up? Dead Viserion. Jon being named Aegon! Boatsex while the wall was falling down?!  I think that's why some of us are more hesitant to ignore these leaks this time around no matter how nonsensical they sound.

And as you rightly pointed out, these spoilers are not entirely impossible. I do think Jaime and Cersei will meet one final time and Jaime will strangle Cersei to death before she uses the Wildfire and the mountain retaliates. I don't see Jaime surviving the series. If he has to go out, I think that would be a fitting ending for the character. Cersei has been his story for 6 seasons on the show and they finish the series together.

I expect Winterfell to fall in the books after a WW invasion. Sounds like the Hound, Brienne, Sansa, Arya, Pod and Tyrion flee on a cart. I would think that Arya would be on the frontlines with her Valyrian steel dagger, but I can also see David and Dan  sticking her with Sansa. Also if we are going to get SanSan in the books, and if the show is heading for the same book ending for Sansa, then Sansa and the Hound hanging out together makes sense. No mention of Gendry anywhere.  Since GRRM has ruled out Arya/Gendry, he probably has a separate story line elsewhere.

The Hound and Brienne against the Mountain also makes sense if the mountain kills Jaime. Dany getting pregnant, Bronn getting the twins - more or less expected at this point.

Apparently Isaac is not doing a lot of filming and his only scenes are with Jon and Sam. Nothing new here. I will surprised if Bran has lots to do next season.

The only spoiler that is puzzling is Jon being Cersei's prisoner but this is David and Dan's writing. If they want two characters to interact because they find it interesting, they will make it happen through illogical plot and terrible writing.

So , I am not writing off these leaks yet.

The reason why Sue is not asking her sources is because she's sure that the script pages are fake, and if the script pages are fake there's no need to ask about the information on them. 

She knows they are fake because after season 5, GOT is now using a code name in their script pages. For season 7 it was The Big Three and she knows that they are also using a code name for season 8. 

Personally I don't think Winterfell is going to fall. The fact that is going to be under a long siege instead of being destroy immediately (hello dead viserion!) points out that Winterfell will stand against WW. 

This user u/YezenIRL explains better why Winterfell must not fail. This was written before WOTW spoilers came out about Winterfell siege and KL streets being burn by dragonfire

Edited December 14, 2017 by Edith

[FemmyV]

On 12/13/2017 at 5:46 AM, anamika said:

Bronn responsible for single handedly defeating the Golden Company and vanquishing the NK and his armies is something that David and Dan would write.

Except, Bronn's not the protagonist of the story. He's not even A protagonist. It's possible that he manages to send flaming bolt, or whatever, to kill Viserion, but how can anyone imagine the person to kill the NK wouldn't be Jon or Bran, or even Sam, Jamie, or Arya? Shit, even Theon (archer) has a better chance of being the one to bring down the NK than Bronn. I love Bronn, too, but he's not been important enough to the story, as a character with any kind of real emotional journey (as opposed to Theon who's not that important, but has had a huge journey), to have so much hanging on him as a hero in the final moments of battle. Is why I have a hard time investing much belief in this leak.

Edited December 14, 2017 by FemmyV

[Eyes High]

Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) and Alfie Allen (Theon) have both mentioned doing night shoots on social media (/Freefolk). In the comments section a poster mentions that they've been filming at the Winterfell set at night. Does that mean that Theon makes it back to Winterfell...? Alfie was also doing night shoots at Ballintoy (Pyke) a few days ago, so it could just be a continuation of that.

Sue never outright lied and said that the Lads leaks were fake, so I tend to trust her when she says that these new "leaks" are a hoax.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

13 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Vale can always hire a fleet but I presume they have some fleet of their own. And you realize that the Vale has way more resources at their disposal than Stannis' small and weathered army, right? Like it's not even close.

I mean what's the point of Sansa having eyes within the Vale if you don't imagine she's going to take the Vale to the north? Just to kill LF and then what? Stay put?

 

The Vale does not have a military fleet of any consequence, if it did it would have figured in the thoughts of Stannis and Davos, when Stannis' royal fleet went to the Blackwater.

What's the point of Sansa in the Vale? Well, she has her own playground to learn with her very own supporting cast, much like Arya has in Braavos. I don't think Arya will lead a Braavosi army to Westeros, either. The Vale may get involved in the LF vs Varys rivalry (possibly declare against Aegon, and for Dany?). And the Vale has lots of food, which LF is hoarding. That could come in handy (D&D did have Sansa look after the food in Winterfell). As mentioned, the Vale troops may end up getting involved in the defence of the south (and of their own foodstocks to feed the survivors, afterwards).

 

 

Edith; nice text you quoted. I agree, and I would add that Winterfell could be seen as the place where Winter fell. It does have that "minas tirith" feeling. It's build to withstand a long siege of this type, not only with its walls but with its hot springs.

[screamin]

I really can't believe WF will fall. Not so much because of the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" thing (with the unspoken corollary that the North will ultimately be all right if there is) but because there would be no way for the North as a whole to survive such a loss. Canonically, Sansa has taken all the North's food within the walls to withstand siege. If Bran sudden sits up and declares that the WW will be there in 2 days, that locking the gates will be useless and everyone HAS to bug out? Maybe Sansa and her immediate family and subordinates might have enough horses or dragonback tickets to get out in time, but the thousands of refugees on foot? The long, slow trains of supply wagons necessary to bring the food? No way can they outrun an army of wights that can march day and night with no need for rest. They all fall and join the wight army.

And frankly, if the Starks survive by abandoning most of their people to that fate? Well, I'd prefer the wholesale slaughter of the entire family to that character assassination.

Edited December 14, 2017 by screamin

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) and Alfie Allen (Theon) have both mentioned doing night shoots on social media (/Freefolk). In the comments section a poster mentions that they've been filming at the Winterfell set at night. Does that mean that Theon makes it back to Winterfell...? Alfie was also doing night shoots at Ballintoy (Pyke) a few days ago, so it could just be a continuation of that.

Sue never outright lied and said that the Lads leaks were fake, so I tend to trust her when she says that these new "leaks" are a hoax.

Night shoots? Interesting. The WW bring the Long Night so is logical there's no sunlight in any battle they are filming, in fact there should be no sunlight at all in Westeros. Even if the army of the death doesn't go as far as Dorn or even the Reach, a long period of darkness should alert everyone of what is going.

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, anamika said:

From where are they going to hire a naval fleet to take an army of some 20,000 - 30,000 men North? If it was that easy to hire fleets, Dany would have left Essos long ago.  And what are these resources that the Vale has that allows their men to withstand the harsh weather conditions that Stannis' men cannot? Here's the difference between how the Northerners and Southerners handle the current winter conditions in ADwD

And this is about Stannis' march on Winterfell:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell

This is in ADwD. But you think that somehow the Vale army can do better and sail from the Vale to White Harbor and then march from White Harbor to Winterfell to join the Stannis/Winterfell plot in the next book?

As for Sansa, it has long been my belief that she is either entangled in the politics/story in the south with LF and Varys going up against each other (GRRM has hinted at this, mentioning that LF knows more about Varys' plans than the other way around) or if she does play a role in the war against the Others, then the Others and the undead will be marching south.  Dany's prophetic dreams seems to suggest a showdown with the Others on the trident:

Which indicates that the Others reach that far. The trident flows near the Vale. Which means that the Vale army can fight there. With people fleeing the North, the Vale may prove to be a safe haven.

I see. So as soon as Sansa/LF shows up at White Harbor, the Manderlys are just going to wholeheartedly throw their support behind LF's plot to give Winterfell to Sansa? Poor Rickon. BTW, Wyman Manderly is doing his own plotting and even if he is dead, Wylla Manderly is still alive and would remember her father's promises. And while Stannis may yet win the battle for Winterfell, he may not be alive for long.

I know that the latter half of ADwD occurs after AFfC, but months?

So if Sansa is months behind Jon, are you saying that in the next book we will need to have months of Sansa storyline while Jon lies dead at the wall and we get nothing from the Stannis/Theon/WF/Mance/Roose/Manderly/Davos/Rickon story?  So the whole of TWoW is going to be just Sansa while everyone else waits for her to finish the Harry the Heir plot and catch up to their timeline? What about George moving the Battle of Ice from ADwD to TWoW? Is that going to happen after months of Alayne plot in the next book?

From Essos. Daenerys doesn't have the resources to hire a fleet until ASOS and by that point she wants to stay out and rule.

The Vale has resources like plenty of food that they can supply their troops, the availability of warm kids, plenty of horses and probably not being in the blizzard that Stannis is in when they go north.

LF and Varys don't actually have much of a rivalry in the books. That's a mostly show-thing. 

Anyways, there's a lot of scenarios that can make it work. Rickon might already be dead by the time that Sansa lands in White Harbor or Sansa's troops are let through but White Harbor isn't told the Vale's intention and assumes it's to help Rickon/Jon take their seat.

The timelines aren't in unison so everything will happen as normal but some plotlines will be much more ahead of others. 

You'll probably see Sansa's storyline have more time between chapters to hurry things up so it can match Jon and Stannis' timeline.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Night shoots? Interesting. The WW bring the Long Night so is logical there's no sunlight in any battle they are filming, in fact there should be no sunlight at all in Westeros. Even if the army of the death doesn't go as far as Dorn or even the Reach, a long period of darkness should alert everyone of what is going.

A poster in the thread I linked pointed out that two of the S8 roles cast--the sailor and Harry Strickland--were supposed to be filming this week.

[screamin]

On 12/14/2017 at 3:49 AM, WindyNights said:

Not enough obsidian to go around. I expect Daenerys to outfit her troops with obsidian first before giving it out to the North.

In the books, there won't be enough time to mine for obsidian like in the show. Wights also aren't weak to obsidian in the books just fire. You only need enough to kill the few White Walkers with them.

According to awoiaf (link available on request) the books have not in fact clearly shown that obsidian won't kill wights. The only time one was ever attacked with an obsidian dagger, it shattered - against the wight's chain-mail armor. So it is not proven that wights aren't vulnerable to obsidian weapons if they're actually wounded with them. Which makes it highly unlikely that the Vale Army will agree to march against the terrifying Night King's army of wights armed only with flaming torches, which are vulnerable to getting smashed to splinters at the first blow of any ordinary weapon, burning out at inconvenient times, extinguishing when dropped, or blowing out in a particularly stiff breeze and then requiring a long flint-and-steel procedure to relight - a big drawback in the middle of a battle. Not to mention that these weapons are completely useless against White Walkers - while the obsidian weapons that you think the Northerners will jealously hoard for themselves can fell the White Walkers AND dozens of wights with each WW slain. It would be idiotic for the Vale to agree to fight under those terms, or the North to demand them, knowing that every Vale soldier they get killed adds to the NK army.

On 12/14/2017 at 5:48 AM, anamika said:

  And what are these resources that the Vale has that allows their men to withstand the harsh weather conditions that Stannis' men cannot? 

 

The Vale is the Northernmost province below the North itself, and it seems to be mostly mountainous territory. Mountains tend to have colder weather year round even in near-equatorial climes, which the Vale even in its valleys would not be. With both those factors together, I'd guess the Vale soldiers would be okay with inclement weather, at least to begin with...look at, say, Mya Stone.

Though the more I think about it, the more I think the Vale is NOT going to want to invade the North after winter starts. IIRC, the Vale is less vulnerable to invasion due to being accessible only through a few mountain passes - but that means if you send an army North your supply lines are liable to be cut off when storms and snow block the passes. Not a good idea. Maybe some of the hardier nobles might volunteer anyway with their men, but I'd guess the bulk of Vale armed forces are going to stay home and it will be a player by being food supplier and refugee destiny. Their armies will likely come into play when their mountain tribes start to invade the valleys - maybe driven down by undead invaders from the North. (We never DID find out what happened to those mountain tribes that Tyrion armed, did we? A forgotten loose end, or a Chekov's rifle?)

Edited December 15, 2017 by screamin

[anamika]

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

From Essos. Daenerys doesn't have the resources to hire a fleet until ASOS and by that point she wants to stay out and rule. The Vale has resources like plenty of food that they can supply their troops, the availability of warm kids, plenty of horses and probably not being in the blizzard that Stannis is in when they go north.

So according to you, LF is going to hire a fleet from Essos in TWoW, which in theory is the fleet that Dany used to get to Westeros on the show.  Then Sansa/LF organize some tourneys, play some games, possibly kill SweetRobin, Sansa marries Harry the Heir, kills Harry the Heir, there's some plot with the Mad Mouse and Shadrich,  fleet from Essos gets there, loads up the 30,000 men, food supplies, warm kits, horses etc, sail to White Harbor, get welcomed by the Manderlys for some reason, unload at White Harbor and march to Winterfell and still get there before the blizzard we saw in ADwD?

So you are saying that Sansa/LF and their huge Vale army are marching towards Winterfell before the blizzard hits Stannis?  But somehow none of the Northerners preparing for battle there noticed them getting there?  

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

LF and Varys don't actually have much of a rivalry in the books. That's a mostly show-thing.

Actually it's the opposite. The show removing the fAegon plot and LF's Vale plot has negated the LF-Varys rivalry. Now LF is dead and Varys is just a part of Dany's contingent. But according to GRRM:

Quote

Littlefinger and Varys are adversaries, both know a lot about the others' plans, so they're at a stalemate. LF knows more about Varys's motives than Varys does about LF

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5g7vef/spoilers_extended_grrms_second_talk_at_the/

So that's straight from GRRM. They do have a rivalry and the hint that LF knows more about Varys's motives indicates that they will be meeting again in the future. It tells me that LF's plot is going to clash with the Aegon plot down south. He's not going North.

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Anyways, there's a lot of scenarios that can make it work. Rickon might already be dead by the time that Sansa lands in White Harbor or Sansa's troops are let through but White Harbor isn't told the Vale's intention and assumes it's to help Rickon/Jon take their seat.

If I understand your timeline right, Sansa is months behind the North plot and is going to get there before the blizzard hits Stannis or is marching there as Jon is getting assassinated. Which means that she is getting there while Davos has just been dispatched to search for Rickon. So how is Rickon going to be already dead before Sansa gets there? And since no one knows about the Manderly plot with Rickon, why would the Vale troops magically appear at white harbor on their non existent fleet to help Rickon/Jon?

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The timelines aren't in unison so everything will happen as normal but some plotlines will be much more ahead of others. 

You'll probably see Sansa's storyline have more time between chapters to hurry things up so it can match Jon and Stannis' timeline.

We actually have to see Sansa/LF get the Vale army first. GRRM cannot just have time skips to allow Sansa to catch up. And just looking at the way GRRM writes these days (We got two TWoW sample chapters of Arianne traveling to meet Aegon and she still has not met him. Dany is still stuck in Meereen and Tyrion is not going to meet her till halfway through the next book), TWoW will probably be only about Sansa so that she can catch up to Stannis before the blizzard hits!

8 hours ago, screamin said:

The Vale is the Northernmost province below the North itself, and it seems to be mostly mountainous territory. Mountains tend to have colder weather year round even in near-equatorial climes, which the Vale even in its valleys would not be. With both those factors together, I'd guess the Vale soldiers would be okay with inclement weather, at least to begin with...look at, say, Mya Stone.

The winter that has come in ADwD is something that even the Northerners are finding hard to march through. That's why they are not able to march as fast. I mean, yeah, maybe the Vale soldiers can do better than Stannis men, but that's not saying much. I don't think anyone would be okay with the blizzard conditions these men are marching through. These are the hardy Northern mountain clans that Asha is talking about in the books.  They have things like Bear-Paws - like skates - that helps them walk on snow. Does Mya Stone have a pair of those? They can travel in mountainous terrain. Can they march in heavy snow? Makes no sense to me that the Vale soldiers will be okay with the weather that hit Stannis in ADwD.

[screamin]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't think anyone would be okay with the blizzard conditions these men are marching through. These are the hardy Northern mountain clans that Asha is talking about in the books.  They have things like Bear-Paws - like skates - that helps them walk on snow. Does Mya Stone have a pair of those? They can travel in mountainous terrain. Can they march in heavy snow? Makes no sense to me that the Vale soldiers will be okay with the weather that hit Stannis in ADwD.

I don't recall...is there any indication in the books that what struck Stannis' men was (as yet) any worse than an ordinary severe Northern winter - which none of Stannis' men had any experience of? I think in the books, people are expecting a slightly worse winter than average because of the unusual length of the summer preceding it - but thus far I don't remember an indication that what they experienced was shockingly out of the norm for the North. The only way to be sure that what's happening to Stannis isn't just a simple 'Napoleon in Moscow' situation is for us to see an ordinary Northman of at least middle years (hence with significant experience of several Northern winters) remark with unease that this winter seems MUCH worse than even he expected. Not to mention that Stannis' men have spent a lot of time around the Wall - which is farther North (and colder) than even most Northerners ever go.

As for the hardy Northern mountain tribes - it stands to reason they'd be better at a Northern winter, since mountains are colder than flat terrain at the same latitude, so a Northern mountain tribe would be better at handling a cold winter than even a Northerner from the lowlands. By the same token, being from a mountainous land might give the Vale some advantage that would offset to some extent the disadvantage of living further south - at least at first.

[WindyNights]

18 hours ago, screamin said:

According to awoiaf (link available on request) the books have not in fact clearly shown that obsidian won't kill wights. The only time one was ever attacked with an obsidian dagger, it shattered - against the wight's chain-mail armor. So it is not proven that wights aren't vulnerable to obsidian weapons if they're actually wounded with them. Which makes it highly unlikely that the Vale Army will agree to march against the terrifying Night King's army of wights armed only with flaming torches, which are vulnerable to getting smashed to splinters at the first blow of any ordinary weapon, burning out at inconvenient times, extinguishing when dropped, or blowing out in a particularly stiff breeze and then requiring a long flint-and-steel procedure to relight - a big drawback in the middle of a battle. Not to mention that these weapons are completely useless against White Walkers - while the obsidian weapons that you think the Northerners will jealously hoard for themselves can fell the White Walkers AND dozens of wights with each WW slain. It would be idiotic for the Vale to agree to fight under those terms, or the North to demand them, knowing that every Vale soldier they get killed adds to the NK army.

The Vale is the Northernmost province below the North itself, and it seems to be mostly mountainous territory. Mountains tend to have colder weather year round even in near-equatorial climes, which the Vale even in its valleys would not be. With both those factors together, I'd guess the Vale soldiers would be okay with inclement weather, at least to begin with...look at, say, Mya Stone.

Though the more I think about it, the more I think the Vale is NOT going to want to invade the North after winter starts. IIRC, the Vale is less vulnerable to invasion due to being accessible only through a few mountain passes - but that means if you send an army North your supply lines are liable to be cut off when storms and snow block the passes. Not a good idea. Maybe some of the hardier nobles might volunteer anyway with their men, but I'd guess the bulk of Vale armed forces are going to stay home and it will be a player by being food supplier and refugee destiny. Their armies will likely come into play when their mountain tribes start to invade the valleys - maybe driven down by undead invaders from the North. (We never DID find out what happened to those mountain tribes that Tyrion armed, did we? A forgotten loose end, or a Chekov's rifle?)

Bryan Cogman came out and said that they retconned obsidian into being able to kill wights.

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

So according to you, LF is going to hire a fleet from Essos in TWoW, which in theory is the fleet that Dany used to get to Westeros on the show.  Then Sansa/LF organize some tourneys, play some games, possibly kill SweetRobin, Sansa marries Harry the Heir, kills Harry the Heir, there's some plot with the Mad Mouse and Shadrich,  fleet from Essos gets there, loads up the 30,000 men, food supplies, warm kits, horses etc, sail to White Harbor, get welcomed by the Manderlys for some reason, unload at White Harbor and march to Winterfell and still get there before the blizzard we saw in ADwD?

So you are saying that Sansa/LF and their huge Vale army are marching towards Winterfell before the blizzard hits Stannis?  But somehow none of the Northerners preparing for battle there noticed them getting there?  

Actually it's the opposite. The show removing the fAegon plot and LF's Vale plot has negated the LF-Varys rivalry. Now LF is dead and Varys is just a part of Dany's contingent. But according to GRRM:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5g7vef/spoilers_extended_grrms_second_talk_at_the/

So that's straight from GRRM. They do have a rivalry and the hint that LF knows more about Varys's motives indicates that they will be meeting again in the future. It tells me that LF's plot is going to clash with the Aegon plot down south. He's not going North.

If I understand your timeline right, Sansa is months behind the North plot and is going to get there before the blizzard hits Stannis or is marching there as Jon is getting assassinated. Which means that she is getting there while Davos has just been dispatched to search for Rickon. So how is Rickon going to be already dead before Sansa gets there? And since no one knows about the Manderly plot with Rickon, why would the Vale troops magically appear at white harbor on their non existent fleet to help Rickon/Jon?

We actually have to see Sansa/LF get the Vale army first. GRRM cannot just have time skips to allow Sansa to catch up. And just looking at the way GRRM writes these days (We got two TWoW sample chapters of Arianne traveling to meet Aegon and she still has not met him. Dany is still stuck in Meereen and Tyrion is not going to meet her till halfway through the next book), TWoW will probably be only about Sansa so that she can catch up to Stannis before the blizzard hits!

The winter that has come in ADwD is something that even the Northerners are finding hard to march through. That's why they are not able to march as fast. I mean, yeah, maybe the Vale soldiers can do better than Stannis men, but that's not saying much. I don't think anyone would be okay with the blizzard conditions these men are marching through. These are the hardy Northern mountain clans that Asha is talking about in the books.  They have things like Bear-Paws - like skates - that helps them walk on snow. Does Mya Stone have a pair of those? They can travel in mountainous terrain. Can they march in heavy snow? Makes no sense to me that the Vale soldiers will be okay with the weather that hit Stannis in ADwD.

1) The fleet that Daenerys used to get to Westeros on the show will be the same fleet that she uses to go to Westeros in the books. The ironborn fleet. That has nothing to do with Essosi mercenary fleets that they can hire.

2) I think Harry the Heir is going to survive all the way to Winterfell. His use for LF seems to be to impregnate Sansa with an Arryn heir or to serve as a smokescreen so LF can impregnate Sansa and pretend it's the Arryn heir. 

 

3) The Mad Mouse's purpose seems to be to reveal Sansa's true identity ahead of time. He's going to fail of course. It is GRRM's way to hurry Sansa's story up. I assume he's going to try to take her at the tourney.

 

4) Davos' storyline is also months behind Stannis and Jon's storyline. The last time we see Davos is before Wyman leaves for Winterfell. 

5) Why would the Manderlys oppose a Stark or someone attacking the Boltons?

Anyways on LF and Varys: 

 

What possible reason would LF want to do with Aegon's plot? Varys and LF were perfectly happy to help each other in AGOT when it served their needs. Why would the Vale follow Sansa south?

GRRM's pacing is always slow in the beginning of his books besides AGOT.

 

In the books, Daenerys isn't in Meereen anymore. She's on her way to Vaes Dothrak. And Tyrion won't intersect with Daenerys until near the end. It's uncertain whether they will team up after all.

 

On the blizzard: 

 

It'a the Southerners that are holding the northerners back. They'd be able to go much faster without Stannis' men but they slow themselves down. 

Also that blizzard that's hitting Stannis' army isn't in the whole North. It's literally just over Stannis' area and it's moving either south or north. Can't remember. It's not moving east. It's also a plot device. A blessing in disguise so Stannis can slow his roll and have enough time to discover the Karstark betrayal and for tensions in Winterfell to blow up to the point where the northerners are near revolting against the Boltons.

[Wouter]

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Bryan Cogman came out and said that they retconned obsidian into being able to kill wights.

Possibly a consequence of the changes in the wights themselves: those are much faster and agile in the show.

 

6 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Anyways on LF and Varys: 

 

What possible reason would LF want to do with Aegon's plot? Varys and LF were perfectly happy to help each other in AGOT when it served their needs. Why would the Vale follow Sansa south?

 

Aegon is a puppet of Varys, as is Connington. If they win, Varys will wield much power behind the throne, and he will not suffer competition in the form of LF, who likes to do the same kind of thing. There are indications that LF is aware of Dany, he may well decide to back the other horse when push comes to shove.

The Vale does not have to follow Sansa south, they are south. Moreover, the war involving Aegon may come to them (at the very least in the form of envoys seeking favour for Aegon, the Lannisters/Tyrell alliance if it still stands, or Dany). And since LF is de-facto calling the shots, he may engineer a way for the Vale to become involved if he sees profit in it.

Since Aegon was completely cut and much of the Vale plot has been ditched, just going by the show we can't tell what would happen in the books, other then that eventually Sansa will be LF's undoing.

[Edith]

Miguel Sapochnik directing at least episode 3 and 5 of season 8

http://collider.com/justice-league-interview-fabian-wagner-superman-black-suit/

Winterfell siege episode 3 and the burning of KL, last battle of the Great War in episode 5?

Edited December 15, 2017 by Edith

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Miguel Sapochnik directing at least episode 3 and 5 of season 8

http://collider.com/justice-league-interview-fabian-wagner-superman-black-suit/

Winterfell siege episode 3 and the burning of KL, last battle of the Great War in episode 5?

I would expect ep5 to be the final decision of at least "The Great War", if not all the serious fighting for power as well.

A story of this size needs at least a full-length episode to cool things off afterwards, showing how things end up afterwards. Not only the final king/queen, but also what happens to the survivors in general.

[screamin]

19 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Bryan Cogman came out and said that they retconned obsidian into being able to kill wights.

I'm going strictly by the books when I say that there is nothing in the books that says obsidian CAN'T kill wights. You said flatly that in the books it is clear that obsidian can't kill wights. Can you come up with book-based evidence for that statement, regardless of what Cogman did or did not say?

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm going strictly by the books when I say that there is nothing in the books that says obsidian CAN'T kill wights. You said flatly that in the books it is clear that obsidian can't kill wights.

The one time dragonglass is used against a wight, it shatters. And Sam tells Stannis as much in ASOS. I think we're supposed to think that it does nothing against wights.

[Eyes High]

23 hours ago, Wouter said:

A story of this size needs at least a full-length episode to cool things off afterwards, showing how things end up afterwards. Not only the final king/queen, but also what happens to the survivors in general.

I'm all for a lengthy, plush denouement, particularly given that we may never see the book ending, but there's but a handful of named characters left in the show, and a substantial number of them--I'm guessing at the very least Beric, the Mountain, Qyburn, Cersei, Euron, Jaime, Varys, Melisandre, and probably Tormund--are very likely to die. How much time is really needed to detail what's going to happen to whoever's left? For example, if Sansa survives the war and remains at Winterfell (or heads back to Winterfell if she left at some point in Season 8), that's not going to require a lot of screen time to cover.

[bubble sparkly]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

How much time is really needed to detail what's going to happen to whoever's left?

Don't forget though, we will need to allocate at least half an hour for Dany and Jon to go into excruciating detail about their tax policy ;p

[Wouter]

On 17-12-2017 at 0:03 AM, Eyes High said:

I'm all for a lengthy, plush denouement, particularly given that we may never see the book ending, but there's but a handful of named characters left in the show, and a substantial number of them--I'm guessing at the very least Beric, the Mountain, Qyburn, Cersei, Euron, Jaime, Varys, Melisandre, and probably Tormund--are very likely to die. How much time is really needed to detail what's going to happen to whoever's left? For example, if Sansa survives the war and remains at Winterfell (or heads back to Winterfell if she left at some point in Season 8), that's not going to require a lot of screen time to cover.

Even if the battles are over, that doesn't mean the political part is necessarily over. Who will rule the 7K (that may not be clear yet, depending on what has happened and what is known about Jon's background, for example)? If KL is destroyed, will there be an attempt to rebuild it? Who gets Winterfell? There are probably still questions that need to be answered. Maybe Cersei is still alive at this point, though powerless. Then we would still wait for the Valonqar.

19 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Don't forget though, we will need to allocate at least half an hour for Dany and Jon to go into excruciating detail about their tax policy ;p

As is well known, Tolkien didn't go into tax policy or post-war Orc policy. On the other hand, we did have the scouring of the shire (or the hobbits taking it on, anyway) after the big battles were fought. Admittedly, the films left that part out.

[screamin]

On 12/16/2017 at 5:01 PM, YaddaYadda said:

The one time dragonglass is used against a wight, it shatters. And Sam tells Stannis as much in ASOS. I think we're supposed to think that it does nothing against wights.

Yes, it shatters...against the chainmail the wight Sam was attacking was wearing. Remember, obsidian is essentially glass, and brittle. Seems it's not proven that obsidian won't harm wights, since no one has actually wounded the flesh of a wight with it in the books and observed the effect (or lack thereof).

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Yes, it shatters...against the chainmail the wight Sam was attacking was wearing. Remember, obsidian is essentially glass, and brittle. Seems it's not proven that obsidian won't harm wights, since no one has actually wounded the flesh of a wight with it in the books and observed the effect (or lack thereof).

You are right. I think we're about to find out in any case because Jon's two dead men are likely coming back to life during the chaos at Castle Black in the aftermath of his stabbing.

[SeanC]

WOTW:  Alfie Allen and Gemma Whelan are filming on the show's standard ship set at the moment.  It doesn't appear that Pilou Asbæk was present.

[anamika]

On 12/15/2017 at 10:10 PM, screamin said:

I don't recall...is there any indication in the books that what struck Stannis' men was (as yet) any worse than an ordinary severe Northern winter - which none of Stannis' men had any experience of? I think in the books, people are expecting a slightly worse winter than average because of the unusual length of the summer preceding it - but thus far I don't remember an indication that what they experienced was shockingly out of the norm for the North. The only way to be sure that what's happening to Stannis isn't just a simple 'Napoleon in Moscow' situation is for us to see an ordinary Northman of at least middle years (hence with significant experience of several Northern winters) remark with unease that this winter seems MUCH worse than even he expected. Not to mention that Stannis' men have spent a lot of time around the Wall - which is farther North (and colder) than even most Northerners ever go.

Yes, we do specifically see several instances where Northerners remark on the Winter storm that hits the North in ADwD. Almost the entire Northern plot revolves around the adverse weather having people stuck in different places.

At Winterfell, Roose mentions a snowstorm that has caught Stannis and his men and how the Northerners sheltered in Winterfell are lucky to not be caught in that snowstorm. The snow is so much, that Theon cannot even see the walls of Winterfell:

Quote

The yard was a white wilderness,full of half-heard sounds that echoed strangely amidst the storm.The icy trenches rose around them,knee high,then waist high,then higher than their heads. They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them,but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter,a thousand leagues beyond the Wall.

And of course we have Asha's account of how the march of Stannis' army from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell slows down because of the snow. The army predicts that it would take them 15 days but the snowstorm slows them down:

Quote

By the ninth day of the storm,every camp saw the captains and commanders entering the king's tent wet and weary...and report their losses for the day.

The fifteenth day of the march came and went,and they had crossed less than half the distance.

On the twenty-sixth day...the last of the vegetables was consumed...On the thirty-second day,the last of the grain and fodder.

Meanwhile, things are even worse up North. Cotter Pyke has to delay his trip from eastwatch-by-the-sea to Hardhome because of storms - so even if the Vale somehow hires a fleet and sails to White Harbor, things are not looking too great on that front either.

At Castle black, the snow storms are from the south:

Quote

The snow was following heavily outside."Wind's from the south," Yarwick observed.It's blowing the snow right up against the Wall.See?

He was right.The switchback stair was buried almost to the first landing,Jon saw,and the wooden doors of the ice cells and storerooms had vanished behind a wall of white

On 12/15/2017 at 10:10 PM, screamin said:

As for the hardy Northern mountain tribes - it stands to reason they'd be better at a Northern winter, since mountains are colder than flat terrain at the same latitude, so a Northern mountain tribe would be better at handling a cold winter than even a Northerner from the lowlands. By the same token, being from a mountainous land might give the Vale some advantage that would offset to some extent the disadvantage of living further south - at least at first.

TKOTV might have some advantage over Stannis' men because of their mountainous land. But again, these are the knights of the Vale that LF plans to control, not the Vale mountain clans who reside in the mountains of the moon. The Eyrie holds around 500 men. The Vale soldiers primarily reside in the Vale of Arryn. These are the guys who close down the Eyrie and move to the Vale the moment it starts snowing! How are they going to manage the harsh Northern winters?

The hardy Northern mountain tribes are cool bad-asses. There's a reason for why Jon directs Stannis to them. I mean look at Big Bucket!

Quote

Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue

And of course Big Bucket makes fun of the snowstorm when Ser Corliss Penny wonders aloud whether an entire army has ever frozen to death in a winter storm:

Quote

Up in the hills we say that autumn kisses you, but winter fucks you hard. This is only autumn's kiss.

Winter has come in ADwD. In the blind girl chapter Arya mentions that its snowing in the Riverlands, the Eyrie is vacated because of snow in the Vale and Kevan gets a Raven from the Citadel to herald the arrival of winter.

IMO no army is going to be able to march from the south to Winterfell in the next book. Not with the storms and snow we saw in ADwD. Even sailing North is going to be dangerous considering the storms we are seeing at Eastwatch. To march from the Vale to Winterfell is impossible. To hire a fleet from Essos, sail from the Sisters to White Harbor and then march some 400 miles to Winterfell is impossible. The Vale army is not going North in the books.

Edited December 20, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

IMO no army is going to be able to march from the south to Winterfell in the next book. Not with the storms and snow we saw in ADwD. Even sailing North is going to be dangerous considering the storms we are seeing at Eastwatch. To march from the Vale to Winterfell is impossible. To hire a fleet from Essos, sail from the Sisters to White Harbor and then march some 400 miles to Winterfell is impossible. The Vale army is not going North in the books

I agree with this. I imagine Moat Cailin will be even more difficult to cross with the snows.

I'll add to your list that Aegon's fleet coming from Essos was scattered and different ships ended up landing in different places because of storms. 

With the Vale though, I feel like everyone keeps forgetting the Mountain Clansmen who are now armed, and have been raiding villages. They might be a very nasty surprise waiting in the wings for the army of the Vale. 

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

With the Vale though, I feel like everyone keeps forgetting the Mountain Clansmen who are now armed, and have been raiding villages. They might be a very nasty surprise waiting in the wings for the army of the Vale. 

The clans aren’t able to get into the Vale.  They’re still stuck outside the Bloody Gate, raiding outlying settlements.  They’re also, numerically, nowhere near the size of the Vale’s armies.

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

The clans aren’t able to get into the Vale.  They’re still stuck outside the Bloody Gate, raiding outlying settlements.  They’re also, numerically, nowhere near the size of the Vale’s armies.

I know that they are outside of the Vale and that their numbers are not really that big, that they are half-starved and their horses are also half-starved, but the snows can make a really big difference. 

[Happy Harpy]

On 12/19/2017 at 11:58 PM, SeanC said:

WOTW:  Alfie Allen and Gemma Whelan are filming on the show's standard ship set at the moment.  It doesn't appear that Pilou Asbæk was present.

Yay for my Greyjoy siblings. Minimal presence of GoT Negan is on my wish list for S8, so I'm going to take this as a good omen.

[SimoneS]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:58 PM, SeanC said:

WOTW:  Alfie Allen and Gemma Whelan are filming on the show's standard ship set at the moment.  It doesn't appear that Pilou Asbæk was present.

I am thrilled that Yara is free from her uncle's clutches.

Edited December 21, 2017 by SimoneS

[screamin]

On 12/20/2017 at 0:10 PM, YaddaYadda said:

I know that they are outside of the Vale and that their numbers are not really that big, that they are half-starved and their horses are also half-starved, but the snows can make a really big difference. 

I'm guessing maybe the Night King, now that he's through the Wall, might just strategically send a few White Walkers and squads of wights southward to infiltrate the Vale instead of just marching all his men straight to WF in one mass - a mass that would be easily strafable from dragonback.

After all, the obstacles to living people invading the Vale - like freezing cold, rapid starvation, smothering snowdrifts, fear of falling - do not much apply to wights. And once there, they can rapidly increase their numbers. Maybe GRRM will have those Tyrion-armed Vale mountain tribes begin in desperation to invade the Vale proper and attack there because they're being pursued by the NK's forces...

[YaddaYadda]

14 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm guessing maybe the Night King, now that he's through the Wall, might just strategically send a few White Walkers and squads of wights southward to infiltrate the Vale instead of just marching all his men straight to WF in one mass - a mass that would be easily strafable from dragonback.

I was referring to the books since the army of the Vale is still ensconced there. Would the Vale remain impregnable when faced with the wights?

I doubt the writers will bother with the Vale at all. D&D want this thing done and over with.

[FemmyV]

Edd makes it through at least the final episode.

 

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/game-of-thrones-ben-crompton-eddison-tollett-teases-season-8-finale-2187656

 

Director info from Elite Daily:

Episode 1: David Nutter

Episode 2: David Nutter

Episode 3: Miguel Sapochnik --->> battle show

Episode 4: David Nutter

Episode 5: Miguel Sapochnik --->> battle show

Episode 6: David Benioff & Dan Weiss --->> resolution

Nutter's previous episodes include the Red Wedding, King's Landing Riot, Shireen's death, and Cersei's walk.

Edited December 25, 2017 by FemmyV

[WearyTraveler]

I feel that because the Vale army made it North on the show, there's a good possibility that it will, eventually, make it North in the books.  Obviously, they can't at the moment because the North is completely cut off with all the snow, but....

 

... there are several mentions of "the year of the false spring" in the books, referring to a time in the past when people in Westeros thought Spring had come.  In order for them to think that way, the Winter weather must have mellowed out significantly to resemble Spring.  So, there is the possibility that after all this snow, Westeros might have a respite that allows for some movement of characters from one place to another.

 

At the end of the day, Martin will contrive whatever he needs to contrive to make any moves he considers necessary.  That's why he set up in a Universe where weather doesn't behave as it does here on Earth.  At the end of the published books Tyrion hasn't even made it to Dany yet, and Martin said he might not even meet her by the end of The Winds of Winter, so, something needs to slow down the action in Westeros for things in Essos to catch up.  That something is the Winter we are seeing, which eventually needs to go away for a little while so that fAegon can get to doing some conquering and then be taken down by Dany.  If Winter has covered everything and is not letting up at all before Dany gets to Westeros, there would be no forward movement in the stories South of the Riverland, and I don't think that's what Martin wants.

 

Maybe one day Martin will finish this thing and we'll find out.

[SeanC]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:27 AM, WearyTraveler said:

I feel that because the Vale army made it North on the show, there's a good possibility that it will, eventually, make it North in the books.  Obviously, they can't at the moment because the North is completely cut off with all the snow, but....

... there are several mentions of "the year of the false spring" in the books, referring to a time in the past when people in Westeros thought Spring had come.  In order for them to think that way, the Winter weather must have mellowed out significantly to resemble Spring.  So, there is the possibility that after all this snow, Westeros might have a respite that allows for some movement of characters from one place to another.

At the end of the day, Martin will contrive whatever he needs to contrive to make any moves he considers necessary.  That's why he set up in a Universe where weather doesn't behave as it does here on Earth.  At the end of the published books Tyrion hasn't even made it to Dany yet, and Martin said he might not even meet her by the end of The Winds of Winter, so, something needs to slow down the action in Westeros for things in Essos to catch up.  That something is the Winter we are seeing, which eventually needs to go away for a little while so that fAegon can get to doing some conquering and then be taken down by Dany.  If Winter has covered everything and is not letting up at all before Dany gets to Westeros, there would be no forward movement in the stories South of the Riverland, and I don't think that's what Martin wants.

Maybe one day Martin will finish this thing and we'll find out.

I've wondered along the same lines, mainly because if the North continues to be blanketed with snow in the way that it is toward the end of ADWD, it's hard to see how much of anything can happen there in the subsequent books, and by all indications we should be seeing an increase in Northern narrative activity, not a decrease.  The logistics of the Vale army going north are a big question mark, though at the same time Littlefinger seems to think it can happen, and he'd be in the better position to know than the reader.  I think a book equivalent of the Battle of the Bastards is very unlikely based on what we know, but there does seem to have been a fair bit of groundwork laid for some kind of Stark succession squabble.

Unrelatedly, Sophie is blonde again, so she's either using the wig this season (and her hair stayed red post-Dark Phoenix only out of a desire to wait a bit longer to dye it back for hair health reasons) or she's finished filming (not impossible, since post-Season 4 she seems to only work a couple of weeks a year, though were that the case she's definitely spending the season hunkered down in Winterfell). Wait and see whether she turns up in Northern Ireland (or elsewhere) in the New Year.

[Eyes High]

51 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Unrelatedly, Sophie is blonde again, so she's either using the wig this season (and her hair stayed red post-Dark Phoenix only out of a desire to wait a bit longer to dye it back for hair health reasons) or she's finished filming (not impossible, since post-Season 4 she seems to only work a couple of weeks a year, though were that the case she's definitely spending the season hunkered down in Winterfell). Wait and see whether she turns up in Northern Ireland (or elsewhere) in the New Year.

I'd be surprised if Sophie turns out to have already finished filming, since she hasn't been in Belfast nearly as much as some of the other actors. I guess we'll see.

In other news, WOTW reports that Alys Karstark and Ned Umber are back for Season 8. They also report that Seamus O'Hara has been cast in the role of "Fergus" for Season 8.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I'd be surprised if Sophie turns out to have already finished filming, since she hasn't been in Belfast nearly as much as some of the other actors. I guess we'll see.

It wouldn’t be the more obvious conclusion in my view either.  Sophie evidently has an understandable desire to go back to her real hair colour (possibly also a career rebranding thing), so it would make sense that, once the show had to let her use a wig in Season 7, she’d keep doing it.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

 The logistics of the Vale army going north are a big question mark, though at the same time Littlefinger seems to think it can happen, and he'd be in the better position to know than the reader.  I think a book equivalent of the Battle of the Bastards is very unlikely based on what we know, but there does seem to have been a fair bit of groundwork laid for some kind of Stark succession squabble.

 

Not sure that Littlefinger is aiming for Harry the Heir to take the North for Sansa in the winter. Everything he has planned to happen before that - like Tyrion's undeniable death so that Sansa can properly be married and reveal herself as Sansa Stark without a hitch - will likely take time to accomplish, and LF said his original plans were intended to take place over a course of several years. Littlefinger likely expects Harry to be married to Sansa, Lord of the Vale and his willing tool by springtime, not sooner.

[Edith]

Game of Thrones returns to Croatia one final time for Season 8 filming, and Jon Snow  will be part of it. 

According to WOTW others main characters would also ve part of that filming.

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-returns-to-croatia-one-final-time-for-season-8-filming/

 

Is this the first confirmation of the leaked scripts pages? 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Edith

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Edith said:

Is this the first confirmation of the leaked scripts pages? 

What does this supposedly confirm?

[Edith]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

What does this supposedly confirm?

Well not confirm exactly, but it is interesting to have Jon Snow at KL in winter. I guess confirmation of the scripts will be if Maisie, Emilia and Peter are the other characters in Croatia or was that another leak? 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Edith

[GraceK]

Maybe he’s there for his coronation:)

[Happy Harpy]

23 hours ago, Edith said:

Well not confirm exactly, but it is interesting to have Jon Snow at KL in winter. I guess confirmation of the scripts will be if Maisie, Emilia and Peter are the other characters in Croatia or was that another leak? 

No, you have it right, it was in the same batch.

Of course, if Winterfell falls and all the survivors end up in KL/the Crownlands*, it wouln't confirm a particular plot/leak but rather, the temporary survival of certain characters (Bran being the only one I could imagine still North and alive in such circumstances).

13 hours ago, GraceK said:

Maybe he’s there for his coronation:)

If filming was to show that, the list of characters present would be extremely interesting; since if Jon is ever crowned, I don't see it happening until the very end.

*The Brotherhood, the Hound and Gendry are still in the Riverlands in the books. If the wight hunt is a show-only plot, it would make more sense to me that all those characters meet and join the Alliance of the Living there, after the North has more or less completely fallen.

[Eyes High]

I'm sure D&D will contrive some way to film the coronation indoors to minimize the risk of spoilers. If the Red Keep survives the KL fire, I expect they'll use the throne room set.

[WindyNights]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/maisie-williams-there-were-things-i-learnt-on-game-of-thrones-that-you-could-never-learn-in-a-classroom-pz7p039g7

 

Quote

Before she read the Thrones scripts, she and her mother “cracked open a bottle of wine and made predictions about how it was going to end. And neither of us was right.”Was either of them close? “No. I don’t know if it’s gonna surprise people, but it’s just different to what you think it’s gonna be.” Word is that HBO is thinking of making each episode in the last season feature-length. That would be “amazing”, Williams says. “Milk it for all it’s worth, why don’t you!”

 

Ending is different than you might think. Maisie and her mom tried to guess the ending, got the ending wrong and weren't even close.

Edited January 14, 2018 by WindyNights