Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Edith · December 7, 2017

16 hours ago, screamin said:

If Cersei is forced to flee from KL because of the approach of the army of the undead and the Night King - what's the point of her fleeing to Casterly Rock? How in the name of God can she "rule from Casterly Rock if she wanted to" in a land where the Night King has taken over? If she sees the army of the dead is coming, she'll know that her gamble to let Danaerys' forces defeat the NK to the North while weakening themselves enough to let Cersei defeat them failed. She'll know that she can't defeat the NK on her own and Westeros is doomed. Why would she leave her Iron Throne for a few days of miserable powerless flight before eventually getting caught and slaughtered by the undead? From the perspective of someone seeing thousands of corpses marching, you're witnessing the approach of the end of the world. And we've already seen what Cersei does when she feels doomed - and it ain't fleeing pointlessly. What she did when she felt doomed was sit her ass on the Iron Throne, coolly planning to give Tommen and then herself a comfortable death.

IMO, that was a foretaste of what she will eventually do...and I can't imagine a vindictive woman like her would take the trouble to arrange the death of all the KL people she loathes - and then not stay to enjoy the sight before her own inevitable death. The books clearly foreshadow this when Jaime sees her almost sexually aroused at seeing the Tower of the Hand burn with wildfire. Cersei would never give up the comforting sight of watching her enemies burn to console her for the unavoidable loss of her own life.

Actually Cersei herself says she would rather rule from Casterly Rock than from KL in AFFC. That's why Cersei fleeing and hiding/ruling from CR is such a popular theory.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Edith

Eyes High · December 7, 2017

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sophie spoke with Variety briefly, and seems to confirm what was pretty obvious from the filming schedule, that the show won't be back until 2019.

It's usually a mistake to focus too much on actor comments about the next season at this point, but for what it's worth:

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This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight.

Jon/Sansa/Daenerys love triangle confirmed!!!!! (Or SanSan. Whatever floats your boat, really.)

...In all seriousness, I'm guessing we'll see Sansa in the thick of things when Winterfell is attacked by WWs, which is so obvious at this point (even aside from the information about filming) that I'm surprised Sophie's playing so coy. I think L7R (Los Siete Reinos) reported that only female extras were sought for the filming at the Winterfell interiors.

SeanC · December 7, 2017

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In all seriousness, I'm guessing we'll see Sansa in the thick of things when Winterfell is attacked by WWs, which is so obvious at this point (even aside from the information about filming) that I'm surprised Sophie's playing so coy. I think L7R (Los Siete Reinos) reported that only female extras were sought for the filming at the Winterfell interiors.

That’s my guess as well. Assuming that the warriors, dragon riders, etc. take the field in the later stages of the story, she may be the one left in charge of Winterfell again toward the end of the season.

Eyes High · December 7, 2017

24 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That’s my guess as well. Assuming that the warriors, dragon riders, etc. take the field in the later stages of the story, she may be the one left in charge of Winterfell again toward the end of the season.

If the WWs make it as far as KL, is it a safe assumption that Winterfell falls and the survivors are forced to evacuate south?

User Homeofthrones on Twitter posted some photos of the Ballintoy filming (vehicles and equipment, nothing big).

The Mountain's actor trained on Tuesday night at a Belfast gym.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Eyes High

Spartan Girl · December 7, 2017

Dammit, we have to wait until 2019?!!!! *screams angrily into a pillow*

SeanC · December 7, 2017

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If the WWs make it as far as KL, is it a safe assumption that Winterfell falls and the survivors are forced to evacuate south?

I personally don’t think so. I tend to think the writers are going to have the Night King head south (he has a dragon, after all, and can raise armies anywhere he goes), either immediately or perhaps after some setback (in general, I’m not sure how the writers are going to deal with giving the Night King a weapon that powerful while still allowing the plot to play out).

On a literary level, I don’t think Winterfell falling fits. Among other things, we already had that story beat. The Starks retaking Winterfell in time for the Long Night is a big thing, symbolically. This is what Winterfell is for.

Also, on a practical level (not that this bothers the showrunners, heh), if Winterfell is sieged by the army of the dead and falls, I don’t see how any meaningful evacuation could be conducted. The army of the dead will be everywhere, and if the Night King wins that means he must have fought off the two other dragons. How would such a retreat even be conducted?

Unrelatedly, Tyrion’s role in the final season is an interesting question mark, since virtually all speculation about his role in the Long Night has assumed he’s be riding a dragon. Without that, he’s not going to have any sort of meaningful combatant role.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SeanC

YaddaYadda · December 7, 2017

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Without that, he’s not going to have any sort of meaningful combatant role.

I would have said that since he had experience with the Battle of Blackwater Bay that maybe he'd be able to do some strategy work and command, but he has proven so ineffective last season. Every single plan he came up with was thwarted by Cersei. So, I have no clue what they will do with him. They'll give him clever lines and let him drink wine.

Eyes High · December 7, 2017

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I personally don’t think so. I tend to think the writers are going to have the Night King head south (he has a dragon, after all, and can raise armies anywhere he goes), either immediately or perhaps after some setback (in general, I’m not sure how the writers are going to deal with giving the Night King a weapon that powerful while still allowing the plot to play out).

On a literary level, I don’t think Winterfell falling fits. Among other things, we already had that story beat. The Starks retaking Winterfell in time for the Long Night is a big thing, symbolically. This is what Winterfell is for.

If the WWs divide their forces, I suppose the Winterfell denizens could successfully fend off the Winterfell assault force while the NK and other WWs move south. That doesn't seem like the WWs' style, though, and in the course of the show, the only survivable approach to a mass wight/WW attack has been to flee. If the WWs manage to get to the point where they've surrounded and have started besieging Winterfell, things are already pretty grim.

As for a Winterfell evacuation, a mass escape on dragonback a la wight hunt certainly doesn't seem as if it's in the cards: they're gonna need a bigger dragon.

43 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I would have said that since he had experience with the Battle of Blackwater Bay that maybe he'd be able to do some strategy work and command, but he has proven so ineffective last season. Every single plan he came up with was thwarted by Cersei. So, I have no clue what they will do with him.

You're not alone. The funny thing about all the fake leaks at /Freefolk is that there are aspects of the plot that clearly stump them as much as the rest of the fandom, to the point that they can't even make something up. Many of the fake leaks don't mention Tyrion at all, heh.

Tyrion, like many characters, is only as intelligent and competent as the plot requires it. I think he'll be working on strategy again and will "magically" have more insight and success in S8. To be generous to D&D, though, one could suggest that the reason he was so ineffective in S7 was that he was conflicted over going against the Lannisters to the point that it was interfering with his judgment. If Tyrion is focused in S8 on the war against the WWs, he will likely fare better in the advice department, although of course he still has his protectiveness towards Dany to deal with.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Eyes High

Edith · December 7, 2017

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

You're not alone. The funny thing about all the fake leaks at /Freefolk is that there are aspects of the plot that clearly stump them as much as the rest of the fandom, to the point that they can't even make something up. Many of the fake leaks don't mention Tyrion at all, heh.

Tyrion, like many characters, is only as intelligent and competent as the plot requires it. I think he'll be working on strategy again and will "magically" have more insight and success in S8. To be generous to D&D, though, one could suggest that the reason he was so ineffective in S7 was that he was conflicted over going against the Lannisters to the point that it was interfering with his judgment. If Tyrion is focused in S8 on the war against the WWs, he will likely fare better in the advice department, although of course he still has his protectiveness towards Dany to deal with.

Those "leaks" also stumble with Bran and his importance to the fight with WW:

Jojen: The Night's Watch can't stop them, the kings of Westeros and all their armies can't stop them

Sam:- But you're going to stop them.

Jojen: Your father told you about the Rebellion? Mine never did but I saw that too.

Bran: What else have you seen?

Jojen: The only thing that matters....you.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Edith

YaddaYadda · December 7, 2017

34 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion, like many characters, is only as intelligent and competent as the plot requires it. I think he'll be working on strategy again and will "magically" have more insight and success in S8. To be generous to D&D, though, one could suggest that the reason he was so ineffective in S7 was that he was conflicted over going against the Lannisters to the point that it was interfering with his judgment. If Tyrion is focused in S8 on the war against the WWs, he will likely fare better in the advice department, although of course he still has his protectiveness towards Dany to deal with.

That's fair enough. But the season was so squashed that there are a lot of things they didn't really give a whole of time to. I would have wanted to see Tyrion be very conflicted. He loves his brother, hates his sister, but they're a package deal. Most writers seem to be allergic to anything that is character driven.

Tyrion is a very intelligent guy. He will never be a fighter, but he sure as hell can read books. I'd like to see him with Sam and Bran helping out with that aspect.

MrsR · December 7, 2017

Tyrion is a designated survivor.

screamin · December 7, 2017

4 hours ago, Edith said:

Actually Cersei herself says she would rather rule from Casterly Rock than from KL in AFFC. That's why Cersei fleeing and hiding/ruling from CR is such a popular theory.

Sure, if it were a question of formally moving the capital to Casterly Rock in a masterful show of her Lannister power, Cersei would be all for it. She loathes KL and its inhabitants ever since she walked naked through the street and they flung shit at her. But if it's a question of fleeing to Casterly Rock because the undead are descending on KL, with the miserable likelihood of starving to death in a castle with an empty larder (remember, a wagon train full of a winter's supply of food for an army can't outrun an army that doesn't need to sleep and has a dragon) or getting caught and slaughtered by zombies before you get there or after they starve you out? Doesn't seem likely to be attractive to Cersei.

Especially because she would have to give up her hard-won rule to flee. If the Night King is triumphantly descending on KL it will mean to Cersei that The World As We Know It is ending, and the new overlord of Westeros is not going to let her keep any power or even leave her in peace in Casterly. She gave up everything she purportedly loved to get power - straight up sacrificed Tommen and her relationship with Jaime to keep power. She's going to lose her pregnancy. She has nothing left but the Iron Throne she sacrificed everything else to keep - and it will seem all the more valuable to her for that.

IMO, it would be completely out of character for her to sacrifice her seat on the throne and her longed-for fiery revenge on KL just to get a few more miserable weeks of powerless life in fleeing before her inevitable horrible death. When she thought she was facing doom in KL with Stannis' apparent inevitable victory, she didn't try to take some Kingsguard and Tommen and try to escape into exile. She might have succeeded - the Hound managed to escape. But life in powerless, humiliated exile had no appeal to her, so she sat on the Iron Throne she so loved prepared to take poison instead. I don't think life in powerless humiliated exile would have any greater appeal to her if you add invincible all-conquering zombies about to kill her to it.

Most importantly, the motto about the Game of Thrones 'You win or you die' is hers. Her mind allows for no other possibility.

WindyNights · December 7, 2017

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If the WWs make it as far as KL, is it a safe assumption that Winterfell falls and the survivors are forced to evacuate south?

User Homeofthrones on Twitter posted some photos of the Ballintoy filming (vehicles and equipment, nothing big).

The Mountain's actor trained on Tuesday night at a Belfast gym.

Not really because Winterfell isn't a chokepoint. You can go around it or siege it while the rest of the dead army leaves south.

MrsR · December 7, 2017

The only explanation for burning the streets in KL that I can come up with is to burn out the Golden Company men. I mean they have to be heading for KL, at least some of them. I can't see them trekking across the North to get to Winterfell while the WW are heading south. What's their place in all this? I mean they have elephants. Or will they be a non starter like the Martell Greyjoy Tyrell alliance.

Wouter · December 7, 2017

On 7-12-2017 at 5:52 PM, Eyes High said:

Jon/Sansa/Daenerys love triangle confirmed!!!!! (Or SanSan. Whatever floats your boat, really.)

...In all seriousness, I'm guessing we'll see Sansa in the thick of things when Winterfell is attacked by WWs, which is so obvious at this point (even aside from the information about filming) that I'm surprised Sophie's playing so coy. I think L7R (Los Siete Reinos) reported that only female extras were sought for the filming at the Winterfell interiors.

So a role for Sansa a bit like Eowyn in The Two Towers? While Arya could take some flavour of Eowyn's role in the Return of the King (the film, in this case). Joining the fight with the men seems like her ticket.

As for Turner's comment, it's not like Littlefinger would have been any use - as an advisor or as a manipulator - against the Others. Sansa will be subject to the Iron Throne again though, while last season she was in charge of an independant kingdom, much of the time.

On 7-12-2017 at 6:22 PM, Eyes High said:

If the WWs make it as far as KL, is it a safe assumption that Winterfell falls and the survivors are forced to evacuate south?

User Homeofthrones on Twitter posted some photos of the Ballintoy filming (vehicles and equipment, nothing big).

The Mountain's actor trained on Tuesday night at a Belfast gym.

As others have said, it seems unlikely Winterfell will fall again. Like Minas Tirith, places build up to last against mindless hordes of enemies tend to be saved in the end, in this kind of story. Especially since the castle has fallen already. Bittersweet or not, I think the Starks will keep their ancestral seat and at least some of their people and army intact.

If the NK's main strategy is to race towards KL with his main army, Winterfell may be seen as a secondary concern. Hopefully, he may underestimate the level of defence and supplies that have been build up.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Wouter

Wouter · December 7, 2017

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I would have said that since he had experience with the Battle of Blackwater Bay that maybe he'd be able to do some strategy work and command, but he has proven so ineffective last season. Every single plan he came up with was thwarted by Cersei. So, I have no clue what they will do with him. They'll give him clever lines and let him drink wine.

To be fair, he was succesful in making an alliance between Dany and Jon/the north! Allthough maybe he didn't really like some secondary results from that plot, as Dany and Jon may have grown a bit closer that he'd liked.

screamin · December 8, 2017

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:33 PM, WindyNights said:

Actually, I'm not positing that at all. I'm predicting that the WW flee southward to gain more people to add to their army because those obsidian weapons plus the dragons are super-effective.

To me, that makes your endgame scenario less credible, not more so.

You're saying that Dany, Jon, her dragons and their armies of the North and the Vale soundly defeat the NK and his followers and send them scuttling out of the North. So all the soldiers and lord leaders of the victorious army of the North were eyewitnesses to the fact that the dead came down through the Wall in vast hordes, and that Dany bravely rode her dragons into battle and led everyone to glorious victory against them. In medieval Westeros, that will promote Dany in those people's eyes way past mere war hero, all the way to messiah and halfway to being a freakin' goddess. And the Northern army has the Vale lords and army with them to serve as a second set of eyewitnesses to corroborate them, dispel the charges of Northern exaggeration, and bring the Vale firmly onto Dany's side along with the North as war hero, queen, messiah, demigoddess, savior, reliable leader and generally No One To Fuck With.

You're saying that the NK and his army march in defeat hundreds of miles down the continent, past all the towns and keeps of the Riverlands and the Crownlands that Dany and friends can warn of the enemy's approach by raven long before the enemy actually arrives, so that they can hole up behind their walls and safely watch the mindbending sight of thousands of animated corpses and an undead DRAGON fly by, have a chance to absorb the fact that those old wives' apocalypse horror stories are actually happening - and just BTW, confirm Dany's veracity and her concern for her prospective citizens.

You're saying that despite beating the NK's army and having at least one dragon and ships still at her disposal, she never manages to score on the NK in ALL his long Westeros Southward Grand Tour, even though she knows that one obsidian arrowhead will kill his whole army in one blow - and good archers can ride on dragonback as well as ships. You're saying this remains true even though she could also direct Dragonstone by raven to deliver obsidian for arrowheads to every town within port's reach of the NK"s southward itinerary, to defend themselves and lessen his numbers. Hell, she could even order to deliver a ton of obsidian to KL itself - it's right across the harbor from Dragonstone. Why the hell not?

You're saying that despite all these aforementioned possibilities of fortifying KL against the NK, it falls to him quickly anyway, dooming everyone in KL and forcing Dany to attack with dragons within the city. You're saying that Cersei booby-traps the city to blow up before abandoning it (even though given the choice between fleeing power for her own safety and clinging dangerously to power, she's always clung to power Every. Single. Time). You're saying that Dany inadvertently sets off the trap and destroys KL - and that because of this she will lose all chance at her queenhood, all political power due to a lie that will somehow spread (why? how? by whom?) despite two kingdoms already knowing exactly what the truth is and thousands of eyewitnesses to the truth in the others. Sorry, but even the White Queen only believed six impossible things before breakfast.

Quote

Aegon the Conqueror killed a thousands of people with dragons. Daenerys is going to blamed for a million deaths and this won't be troops that are burned but regular folks. Women and children.

Who do you think lords kept in places like melted Harrenhal? Not just their soldiers. Their wives and children, and their bannermen and servants' as well.

Quote

Also Cersei is publically denying that she blew up the High Sept and no one can prove she did it. The KL explosion will be witnessed by thousands of people.

Proof-shmoof. On the morning of her trial the great Sept blows up with ALL her accusers in it in a green blast of wildfire, the king dies mysteriously a day or so later, and Cersei takes power when she doesn't have a shadow of an actual claim to do so, and as far as we can tell doesn't even bother to spread a lie as to anyone else being responsible. You think anyone in KL believes Cersei was innocent, and that they aren't just obeying her because they're terrified of the carnage she can cause (which we were shown), the efficiency of her spies to discover treachery (which we were also shown) and the fearsomeness of the Mountain in grotesquely punishing it (also shown)? If you can remember ONE SINGLE SCENE in which any character expressed sincere belief that anyone OTHER than Cersei was responsible for blowing up the Vatican, please remind me of it, because IIRC we weren't shown that.

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Cersei's not blowing up KL. The spoilers have made it clear that it's going to be dragonfire that is going to blow KL up.

If the dragonfire blows up KL, it's because Cersei deliberately arranged it to do so. Remember, Aerys set up the wildfire to blow up KL - but then Tyrion discovered many of the caches and put thousands of gallons of it to burn in the Blackwater. Later Qyburn and Cersei blow up the freakin' Vatican - without the explosion setting off the rest of the city in a chain reaction. Ergo, the city won't blow up that easily without some careful preparations that haven't yet been done - which must therefore be performed by Qyburn at Cersei's orders.

Quote

Season 7 Cersei already spelled out what she was going to do if the WW come. Get on a boat and take who matters (her baby and the Mountain maybe) with you and leave.

IIRC, when she said that, she was going along with Euron's declared intention to run away to Pyke and stay there safe. When she said that, both she and we knew that Euron was lying, and she was cheerfully repeating the lie to manipulate the person she was speaking to into believing that she was soft enough to act reasonably instead of treacherously backstabbing Dany to cling to power to the bitter end. "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die" is Cersei's creed, not Euron's lie of convenience she parroted while he did her bidding to bring the Golden Company. Her baby will die and this will give her even more reason to act with bitter irrational vengeance. (Incidentally, your post is the very first time I've ever seen Cersei/Frankenmountain shipping.)

Edited December 8, 2017 by screamin
because wildfire isn't dragonfire

SimoneS · December 8, 2017

On 12/6/2017 at 10:33 PM, WindyNights said:

Aegon the Conqueror killed a thousands of people with dragons. Daenerys is going to blamed for a million deaths and this won't be troops that are burned but regular folks. Women and children.

No one is going to think Daenerys blew up KL to win. That's not what normal people are going to know. They might know that monsters invaded KL and they'll know that Daenerys' dragon blew up the people.

So what if the "people" erroneously blame Daenerys? Since when do conquerors and invaders care what the people they slaughter and conquer think? And whenever are their feelings so hurt that their new subjects hate them that they decide take their ball and go home? After spilling all that blood, conquerors stand on the land their won and rule. I would expect nothing less from Daenerys unless GRRM is a sexist.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SimoneS

WindyNights · December 8, 2017

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

So what if the "people" erroneously blame Daenerys? Since when do conquerors and invaders care what the people they slaughter and conquer think? And whenever are their feelings so hurt that their new subjects hate them that they decide take their ball and go home? After spilling all that blood, conquerors stand on the land their won and rule. I would expect nothing less from Daenerys unless GRRM is a sexist.

The opposite. I don't expect Daenerys to take her ball and go home. I expect her to what is right regardless of whether she'll be rewarded for it or not even at her own sacrifice.

Although yes, GRRM's writing is a bit sexist albeit not as bad as most writers and he's getting better about it.

WindyNights · December 8, 2017

16 hours ago, screamin said:

To me, that makes your endgame scenario less credible, not more so.

You're saying that Dany, Jon, her dragons and their armies of the North and the Vale soundly defeat the NK and his followers and send them scuttling out of the North. So all the soldiers and lord leaders of the victorious army of the North were eyewitnesses to the fact that the dead came down through the Wall in vast hordes, and that Dany bravely rode her dragons into battle and led everyone to glorious victory against them. In medieval Westeros, that will promote Dany in those people's eyes way past mere war hero, all the way to messiah and halfway to being a freakin' goddess. And the Northern army has the Vale lords and army with them to serve as a second set of eyewitnesses to corroborate them, dispel the charges of Northern exaggeration, and bring the Vale firmly onto Dany's side along with the North as war hero, queen, messiah, demigoddess, savior, reliable leader and generally No One To Fuck With.

You're saying that the NK and his army march in defeat hundreds of miles down the continent, past all the towns and keeps of the Riverlands and the Crownlands that Dany and friends can warn of the enemy's approach by raven long before the enemy actually arrives, so that they can hole up behind their walls and safely watch the mindbending sight of thousands of animated corpses and an undead DRAGON fly by, have a chance to absorb the fact that those old wives' apocalypse horror stories are actually happening - and just BTW, confirm Dany's veracity and her concern for her prospective citizens.

You're saying that despite beating the NK's army and having at least one dragon and ships still at her disposal, she never manages to score on the NK in ALL his long Westeros Southward Grand Tour, even though she knows that one obsidian arrowhead will kill his whole army in one blow - and good archers can ride on dragonback as well as ships. You're saying this remains true even though she could also direct Dragonstone by raven to deliver obsidian for arrowheads to every town within port's reach of the NK"s southward itinerary, to defend themselves and lessen his numbers. Hell, she could even order to deliver a ton of obsidian to KL itself - it's right across the harbor from Dragonstone. Why the hell not?

You're saying that despite all these aforementioned possibilities of fortifying KL against the NK, it falls to him quickly anyway, dooming everyone in KL and forcing Dany to attack with dragons within the city. You're saying that Cersei booby-traps the city to blow up before abandoning it (even though given the choice between fleeing power for her own safety and clinging dangerously to power, she's always clung to power Every. Single. Time). You're saying that Dany inadvertently sets off the trap and destroys KL - and that because of this she will lose all chance at her queenhood, all political power due to a lie that will somehow spread (why? how? by whom?) despite two kingdoms already knowing exactly what the truth is and thousands of eyewitnesses to the truth in the others. Sorry, but even the White Queen only believed six impossible things before breakfast.

Who do you think lords kept in places like melted Harrenhal? Not just their soldiers. Their wives and children, and their bannermen and servants' as well.

Proof-shmoof. On the morning of her trial the great Sept blows up with ALL her accusers in it in a green blast of wildfire, the king dies mysteriously a day or so later, and Cersei takes power when she doesn't have a shadow of an actual claim to do so, and as far as we can tell doesn't even bother to spread a lie as to anyone else being responsible. You think anyone in KL believes Cersei was innocent, and that they aren't just obeying her because they're terrified of the carnage she can cause (which we were shown), the efficiency of her spies to discover treachery (which we were also shown) and the fearsomeness of the Mountain in grotesquely punishing it (also shown)? If you can remember ONE SINGLE SCENE in which any character expressed sincere belief that anyone OTHER than Cersei was responsible for blowing up the Vatican, please remind me of it, because IIRC we weren't shown that.

If the dragonfire blows up KL, it's because Cersei deliberately arranged it to do so. Remember, Aerys set up the wildfire to blow up KL - but then Tyrion discovered many of the caches and put thousands of gallons of it to burn in the Blackwater. Later Qyburn and Cersei blow up the freakin' Vatican - without the explosion setting off the rest of the city in a chain reaction. Ergo, the city won't blow up that easily without some careful preparations that haven't yet been done - which must therefore be performed by Qyburn at Cersei's orders.

IIRC, when she said that, she was going along with Euron's declared intention to run away to Pyke and stay there safe. When she said that, both she and we knew that Euron was lying, and she was cheerfully repeating the lie to manipulate the person she was speaking to into believing that she was soft enough to act reasonably instead of treacherously backstabbing Dany to cling to power to the bitter end. "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die" is Cersei's creed, not Euron's lie of convenience she parroted while he did her bidding to bring the Golden Company. Her baby will die and this will give her even more reason to act with bitter irrational vengeance. (Incidentally, your post is the very first time I've ever seen Cersei/Frankenmountain shipping.)

The North Remembers. I actually do expect Daenerys to be remembered as a hero in the North but vilified in the South. I don't expect the Vale army to survive.

Not down the continent. Down the Riverlands straight to KL.

Dorne doesn't see them, the Reach doesn't see them, the Stormlands don't see them, the Westerlands doesn't see them and the Vale doesn't see them. That's most of the population of Westeros.

You're thinking too much about logistics when the show doesn't actually care about them. Those are the nitty-gritty details that don't matter. How did Ramsay burn all of Stannis' horses, food, siege weapons and dozens of tents with 20 men in the middle of a low visibility blizzard? Idk. How did Gendry get from where Jon was at to the Wall, deliver a Raven to Daenerys on Dragonstone, get Daenerys to fly her Dragon and find Jon all in the space of what seemed like a few hours? Idk.

Also no, Cersei isn't going to booby-trap King's Landing. It's already rigged wth wildfire. Tyrion only finds the wildfire under The Sept of Baelor. He doesn't find them throughout the city. The wildfire that he uses against Stannis is the wildfire that the Alchemist's Guild mostly made.

Aerys' wildfire is still present throughout KL. It doesnt go off when the Sept of Baelor explodes because there's likely an initiation spot to burn the whole place down and that spot is likely the Red Keep. It's the big red button.

Cersei feigned ignorance to Braavos' banker of her involvement in the Sept explosion.

Even if two kingdoms were to see the WW, that doesn't mean committing that they'd understand what happened. They're not watching this on TV. Everything is spread through word of mouth.

Harrenhal is just a big castle. King's Landing is an actual city with a population of a million people. Huge difference between the two.

I will also note that Cersei expressed desire to leave KL in the books as well.

(I'm not shipping Cersei and the Mountain??? I'm saying she cares about him because he's valuable.)

SimoneS · December 8, 2017

56 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

The opposite. I don't expect Daenerys to take her ball and go home. I expect her to what is right regardless of whether she'll be rewarded for it or not even at her own sacrifice.

Although yes, GRRM's writing is a bit sexist albeit not as bad as most writers and he's getting better about it.

In other words, she should do what a sexist writers and his sexist fans expect? I can't believe that anyone would write a sci fantasy with that kind of end, but if that is where the leaks suggest the story is going, I am out because that is pathetic not compelling drama.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SimoneS

WindyNights · December 8, 2017

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

In other words, she should do what a sexist writers and his sexist fans expect? I can't believe that anyone would write a sci fantasy with that kind of end, but if that is where the leaks suggest the story is going, I am out because that is pathetic not compelling drama.

Sexist fans want Daenerys to bow before Jon and be used as a breeding factory for Jon while he saves the world and then she dies in childbirth.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean now though. Is it that Daenerys isn't rewarded and vilified despite doing almost everything right?

See: Ned Stark.

But Daenerys would be ending things on her terms by killing the NK and saving the world albeit not surviving. That makes her a true hero.

There's other character besides Daenerys. I expect Bran's ending to be on the same level as Dany's though.

But I expect much happier endings for Sansa and Arya.

I'm mixed on Jon and Tyrion.

Edited December 8, 2017 by WindyNights

SimoneS · December 9, 2017

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Sexist fans want Daenerys to bow before Jon and be used as a breeding factory for Jon while he saves the world and then she dies in childbirth.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean now though. Is it that Daenerys isn't rewarded and vilified despite doing almost everything right?

See: Ned Stark.

But Daenerys would be ending things on her terms by killing the NK and saving the world albeit not surviving. That makes her a true hero.

There's other character besides Daenerys. I expect Bran's ending to be on the same level as Dany's though.

But I expect much happier endings for Sansa and Arya.

I'm mixed on Jon and Tyrion.

I was clear in my previous post.

Edited December 9, 2017 by SimoneS

screamin · December 9, 2017

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The North Remembers. I actually do expect Daenerys to be remembered as a hero in the North but vilified in the South. I don't expect the Vale army to survive.

You posited the Northern Army is victorious in driving the NK and his WW out of the North. The Vale Army is currently stationed in the North and allied with it. How, exactly, do you expect the Vale army, fighting at the side of the North, be completely annihilated while the North comes out victorious? And WHY do you expect this unlikely outcome? What indication in book or movie do you have that this will happen, except a desire to have your prediction come true?

You say that 'the people' will be horrified by Dany inadvertently destroying KL, but the Army of the Vale and the North aren't just composed of the six or eight noblemen who have speaking parts on the show. Armies are made up of all the lords AND the peasant soldiers the lords recruited - and they count as 'the people' too. Anyone who fought the WW and the undead and saw the woman on the dragon fight right along with them will be telling the tale to their grandchildren on their deathbed. I can't see how a secondhand lie (you haven't explained who would industriously spread this lie around) would blot that out. Not to mention that the Vale will be the supplier of food for most of the war-devastated land after the war is over...and the Vale is the North and Dany's ally. IMO, starving people who hear a secondhand tale of KL being destroyed by Dany - but receive food from her allies on her orders - will bless her name and shrug off the rest. In the dead of winter, no one will have the resources to care beyond mere survival.

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Also no, Cersei isn't going to booby-trap King's Landing. It's already rigged wth wildfire. Tyrion only finds the wildfire under The Sept of Baelor. He doesn't find them throughout the city. The wildfire that he uses against Stannis is the wildfire that the Alchemist's Guild mostly made.

Not so. From http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Wildfire_Plot: (my emphasis)

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In the books, several major caches of wildfire left over from the Mad King's plot were inadvertently discovered hidden throughout the city, and were reacquired by the Alchemists. A particularly large cache was found under the Great Sept of Baelor, and the High Septon was so frightened of the dangerous substance that he begged the Alchemists to take it back so they could store it somewhere safe. Another large cache was discovered by accident when a group of whores entertaining their patrons in the ruins of the Dragonpit inadvertently fell through the rotted floor into a hidden chamber beneath containing jars of wildfire left over from the plot. Before they found these hidden caches, the stock of wildfire in the Guildhall of the Alchemists was only 200 jars. Cersei told Tyrion that they would have 10,000 jars of wildfire ready for the battle, but he thought it was only a boast until he saw the massive stockpile with his own eyes. The remaining Alchemists were still working tirelessly to finish the remaining 2,000+ jars of wildfire that were ordered, but Hallyne admitted they could never have met Cersei's massive order if they hadn't found the hidden stockpiles

So yeah, a whole lot of Aerys' caches DID get poured into the harbor and lit. And if you think about the rest, you'd realize that a system of fuses between caches would have rotted away after 20 years. The only way Aerys' caches could set off each other WITHOUT fuses is if the caches are close enough together that one explosion will set off another a little way down a tunnel and another and so on in a chain reaction. In the show, we see the tunnels under the city, we see a huge explosion of wildfire in them - but no chain reaction. So KL isn't really all that flammable - and since Cersei has been canonically preoccupied with wildfire since WAY back, the show will probably end up showing her rigging the place to self-destruct on her order as a last 'fuck you' to her enemies if they manage to enter the city to defeat her.

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Harrenhal is just a big castle. King's Landing is an actual city with a population of a million people. Huge difference between the two.

The principle is the same. You say that 'the people' would reject Dany due to horror over the lie (told by who?) that she deliberately burned women and children to defeat her enemy - but a lord's castle is his home fortress where he gathers his family (women and children) as well as the women and children of his subordinates. Aegon burned them all to get at a king who was refusing him fealty. Yeah, the king he killed was a tyrant, but Aegon didn't kill him for that, he would have been happy to let him be his bannerman if he'd bent the knee, and burned Harrenhal to conquer, no more. And yet people shrugged off the burned castle and said "Eh, Harren had it coming." IMO, Dany burning KL to defeat the WW (with thousands of witnesses knowing the truth) will come off well in comparison.

I guess the main reason I think you're wrong about Dany ending up being vilified for burning KL is, well - how do you SHOW it? Presumably you're picturing a huge climactic battle where the NK bursts the gates of KL and floods in, thousands of zombies killing people who become zombies, Dany flying in on her dragon trying desperately to get the NK on HIS dragon while her soldiers fire arrows, all very exciting, then Dany attacks the Red Keep (BTW, why do you think she'd do that if Cersei is gone?) and the whole city blows up and the NK is defeated. All that sounds gorgeously cinematic. But the aftermath you describe? "The people' (who?) gradually spreading false rumors through taverns in a snowbound land about wicked Dany till they all reject her political leadership? THAT sounds like a dull, anticlimactic, weirdly contrived, deeply uncinematic epilogue that would likely bore and annoy viewers in equal measure.

Edited December 9, 2017 by screamin

anamika · December 9, 2017

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

In other words, she should do what a sexist writers and his sexist fans expect? I can't believe that anyone would write a sci fantasy with that kind of end, but if that is where the leaks suggest the story is going, I am out because that is pathetic not compelling drama.

Considering the way David and Dan write some of their characters I would not put too much hope into the ending being according to our notions of sexism or the right or wrong way to end the series. I just listened to the episode 7 commentary on the season 7 DVD, and during the scene where Sansa sentences LF to death, David and Dan talk about how Sansa is so conflicted about executing LF and how that contrasts with Daenerys who does not show any hint of compassion or mercy in her executions. Like what? Was Dany not conflicted during Mossador's execution? Was Sansa not smiling when Ramsay was getting eaten by dogs? Do the emotions not vary depending on who is getting executed?

It's a pattern I have noticed with David and Dan when talking about characters like Dany and Arya where they have been reduced to the violence in their story. Whether it's about needle equaling revenge for Arya and her getting reduced to an executioner/psycho assassin in her sister's story or Dany needing characters like Tyrion and Varys cautioning her against using her dragons and lacking compassion. These are characters that display a lot of compassion and mercy in the books even when they go through some tough times. Dany is held back in her fight against the insurgency in Meereen because of her compassion for the child hostages.

If there's one thing I am wishing for in season 8, it's that Dany and Sansa share no scenes. Knowing the way David and Dan write, that will be seven seasons of character development down the drain for Dany as she suddenly becomes dumb, psycho Dany to show up Sansa as good queen Bess. I wish she is spared the terrible writing that afflicts all the characters that share scenes with Sansa, but it seems to be highly unlikely.

In other tidbits, David and Dan warn Kit that he will have no free time and will be doing a lot of sword swinging next season. They also keep calling Jon stupid. So we will continue to get dumb, action hero Jon next season. I think Jon dies after getting lost of cool action sequences. I don't have much hopes for Dany or Arya either - I can see them both dying after being one-dimensional, bad-asses seeing as according to David and Dan, Dany does not have compassion or mercy and Arya is just a mindless killer.

As for Bran, maybe they will give him something to do finally... I am not sure what. I don't put much stock in the Bran burning down KL theory. Maybe it's Jon razing KL to the ground on Rhaegal after finally having had enough drama in his life. Or maybe Dany does go mad queen. I don't think it's the NK - makes no sense that he is burning it down when he could be getting wights.

David and Dan call Cersei smart and Jaime idealistic in their last scene where they argue about going North to help Jon and Dany. That's right, they think Cersei is being smart by not sending her forces North. Which indicates to me that Cersei will keep winning till the very last episode at the very least.

Sophie Turner had a GoldDerby interview where she had this to say about next season:

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“I can tell you that there’s definitely a coming together of people, who in all of their little groups–[audio distortion]. There’s been the big wigs of each area and the rulers of that of sector. Everyone coming together to fight against the impending doom of what could be the–[I don’t wan’t to give away too much]. A big threat, everyone kind of coming together for that.

There’s a lot of tension between these kind of lead–[audio distortion] own areas, coming together and battling for what they think is right, and the right way to approach this. It’s very, very interesting. It’s ‘Game of Thrones’, so it’s going to be bloodier, and more death, and more emotionally torturous than all the years before.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C292_CYHaKY&feature=youtu.be&t=13m55s

So who are all these leaders who are going to be dissenting about the right way to approach the fight against the WW?

YaddaYadda · December 9, 2017

2 hours ago, anamika said:

In other tidbits, David and Dan warn Kit that he will have no free time and will be doing a lot of sword swinging next season. They also keep calling Jon stupid. So we will continue to get dumb, action hero Jon next season. I think Jon dies after getting lost of cool action sequences. I don't have much hopes for Dany or Arya either - I can see them both dying after being one-dimensional, bad-asses seeing as according to David and Dan, Dany does not have compassion or mercy and Arya is just a mindless killer.

This is what I find absolutely unbearable with the show and D&D's writing. They sacrificed the characters for the sake of nonsense plots. And they suck as writers, period.

Eyes High · December 9, 2017

5 hours ago, anamika said:

In other tidbits, David and Dan warn Kit that he will have no free time and will be doing a lot of sword swinging next season.

Assuming a substantial denouement in the last episode and that D&D are dumb enough to let something like that slip in an offhand comment, wouldn't the information that Kit will have no free time filming S8 suggest that Jon lives?

I don't mind lots of sword swinging for Kit. Action scenes have always been his forte, and I've never thought much of him as an actor otherwise (although he did have some nice scenes in S7, like the bit with Theon in 7x07). Best to play to his strengths.

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They also keep calling Jon stupid. So we will continue to get dumb, action hero Jon next season. I think Jon dies after getting lost of cool action sequences.

D&D seem to think that only one good guy is allowed to be smart at any given time. One of them commented about the wight hunt that "Like many of these situations on the show, the one who figures it out is Tyrion." (Yes, they apparently thought the wight hunt was supposed to be a good idea, but that's another issue altogether.)

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I don't have much hopes for Dany or Arya either - I can see them both dying after being one-dimensional, bad-asses seeing as according to David and Dan, Dany does not have compassion or mercy and Arya is just a mindless killer.

Jon, Dany and Arya dying? Jon and/or Dany, maybe (although I have my doubts about Jon), but not all three.

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Which indicates to me that Cersei will keep winning till the very last episode at the very least.

Didn't D&D also say that Lena would have time off (when they said that Kit wouldn't)? I'm hopeful the bulk of the finale will be devoted to denouement with all the villains already vanquished, but we'll see. I wouldn't put it past D&D to give Cersei a 20-minute death scene where she staggers around like Alan Rickman in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves for a seemingly interminable length of time.

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Sophie Turner had a GoldDerby interview where she had this to say about next season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C292_CYHaKY&feature=youtu.be&t=13m55s

So who are all these leaders who are going to be dissenting about the right way to approach the fight against the WW?

Going off Seasons 6 and 7, I'm guessing it will be more of Sansa shitting all over Jon's plans. I'm more interested in Jaime joining up with Team Jon/Dany, though.

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I just listened to the episode 7 commentary on the season 7 DVD, and during the scene where Sansa sentences LF to death, David and Dan talk about how Sansa is so conflicted about executing LF and how that contrasts with Daenerys who does not show any hint of compassion or mercy in her executions.

I thought you were exaggerating, so I listened to the commentary and yep, this is what they say:

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Dan: What's great about Sophie's performance here is that you really do get the sense that she feels conflicted about it too, by the end, you know, she soldiers through and does it.

David: There's a real contrast with Daenerys. She executes people and doesn't show any hint of compassion or mercy.

Et tu, D&D?

Interesting tidbit from IrishThrones, who posted this after warning fans against accepting everything they read online:

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True, but if we even mention one of the core trusted components of what we were told, it throws all theories so far heard out the window. It's best not to know, we are into our very last season of one... if not the greatest TV show in history, let's enjoy it and be surprised.

Hmmm.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Eyes High

Heathrowe · December 9, 2017

It's a shame that Bran is simultaneously the most magical being in Westoros and the most boring.....

It would be a very positive ending for Cersei if she's able to escape with this baby, and just live out the rest of her life in a swamp or in hiding. I suspect she will continue to destroy everything around her-she seems to have more in common with the Mad King than Dany.

I think the point of the whole show is that none of these characters-especially the Starks-are who they were when we met them. And the best thing GRRM has done is to show how much they've grown and changed.

SimoneS · December 9, 2017

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Considering the way David and Dan write some of their characters I would not put too much hope into the ending being according to our notions of sexism or the right or wrong way to end the series.

I don't know. I think that D&D are like Kirkman/Gimple on The Walking Dead. They write one thing that we see on screen, but in their interviews say the opposite. Mostly, I think they do this to manufacture drama and chatter among the fans. I think that the interviews given by the writers and directors give us a much better understanding the characterization and story on GoT.

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Didn't D&D also say that Lena would have time off (when they said that Kit wouldn't)? I'm hopeful the bulk of the finale will be devoted to denouement with all the villains already vanquished, but we'll see. I wouldn't put it past D&D to give Cersei a 20-minute death scene where she staggers around like Alan Rickman in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves for a seemingly interminable length of time.

Bwah! Please don't give D&D any ideas. I swear if we get another 45 minutes devoted to Cersei's drama I will scream.

Wouter · December 9, 2017

If there is dissent over the right way to fight the WW, wouldn't it be chiefly about what to defend? Presumably, Sansa would want Dany and Jon to put most resources (such as the dragons) into defending Winterfell, while the Manderly's would want to defend White Harbour, and the Valemen the Vale,etc.

If Jaime shows up to help the defence, he would probably advocate to stop an advance against the south.

bubble sparkly · December 10, 2017

Yeah, D&D saying Dany has no compassion or mercy doesn't really match up to Jon saying she has a good heart and deciding to bend the knee because she deserves it, and the North will come to see her for what she is.

WindyNights · December 10, 2017

22 hours ago, screamin said:

You posited the Northern Army is victorious in driving the NK and his WW out of the North. The Vale Army is currently stationed in the North and allied with it. How, exactly, do you expect the Vale army, fighting at the side of the North, be completely annihilated while the North comes out victorious? And WHY do you expect this unlikely outcome? What indication in book or movie do you have that this will happen, except a desire to have your prediction come true?

You say that 'the people' will be horrified by Dany inadvertently destroying KL, but the Army of the Vale and the North aren't just composed of the six or eight noblemen who have speaking parts on the show. Armies are made up of all the lords AND the peasant soldiers the lords recruited - and they count as 'the people' too. Anyone who fought the WW and the undead and saw the woman on the dragon fight right along with them will be telling the tale to their grandchildren on their deathbed. I can't see how a secondhand lie (you haven't explained who would industriously spread this lie around) would blot that out. Not to mention that the Vale will be the supplier of food for most of the war-devastated land after the war is over...and the Vale is the North and Dany's ally. IMO, starving people who hear a secondhand tale of KL being destroyed by Dany - but receive food from her allies on her orders - will bless her name and shrug off the rest. In the dead of winter, no one will have the resources to care beyond mere survival.

Not so. From http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Wildfire_Plot: (my emphasis)

So yeah, a whole lot of Aerys' caches DID get poured into the harbor and lit. And if you think about the rest, you'd realize that a system of fuses between caches would have rotted away after 20 years. The only way Aerys' caches could set off each other WITHOUT fuses is if the caches are close enough together that one explosion will set off another a little way down a tunnel and another and so on in a chain reaction. In the show, we see the tunnels under the city, we see a huge explosion of wildfire in them - but no chain reaction. So KL isn't really all that flammable - and since Cersei has been canonically preoccupied with wildfire since WAY back, the show will probably end up showing her rigging the place to self-destruct on her order as a last 'fuck you' to her enemies if they manage to enter the city to defeat her.

The principle is the same. You say that 'the people' would reject Dany due to horror over the lie (told by who?) that she deliberately burned women and children to defeat her enemy - but a lord's castle is his home fortress where he gathers his family (women and children) as well as the women and children of his subordinates. Aegon burned them all to get at a king who was refusing him fealty. Yeah, the king he killed was a tyrant, but Aegon didn't kill him for that, he would have been happy to let him be his bannerman if he'd bent the knee, and burned Harrenhal to conquer, no more. And yet people shrugged off the burned castle and said "Eh, Harren had it coming." IMO, Dany burning KL to defeat the WW (with thousands of witnesses knowing the truth) will come off well in comparison.

I guess the main reason I think you're wrong about Dany ending up being vilified for burning KL is, well - how do you SHOW it? Presumably you're picturing a huge climactic battle where the NK bursts the gates of KL and floods in, thousands of zombies killing people who become zombies, Dany flying in on her dragon trying desperately to get the NK on HIS dragon while her soldiers fire arrows, all very exciting, then Dany attacks the Red Keep (BTW, why do you think she'd do that if Cersei is gone?) and the whole city blows up and the NK is defeated. All that sounds gorgeously cinematic. But the aftermath you describe? "The people' (who?) gradually spreading false rumors through taverns in a snowbound land about wicked Dany till they all reject her political leadership? THAT sounds like a dull, anticlimactic, weirdly contrived, deeply uncinematic epilogue that would likely bore and annoy viewers in equal measure.

In the books, the Vale army won't have obsidian weapons so I imagine they'll get wiped out and be resurrected as wights. Daenerys and the Others invasions will be at the same time in the books rather than Daenerys coming first and then the Others invading. That changes a lot. In the show, the whole Vale Army isn't there but we haven't seen any indication that they have obsidian weapons yet unlike the Unsullied.

But what about the people that didn't see them? What about the people that saw but didn't understand? What about the people that fought them but disagreed? And you realize that I'm expecting many of her own men to be in KL when it happens.

You don't have to link the GOT wiki. I already know about that. They only exploded what was already there under the Sept of Baelor. In the books, Tyrion found that cache and took it out to use against Stannis' army but didn't understand what the heck it was doing there. There's a lot more places that are rigged to blow besides that.

You're very invested in a bad guy blowing up KL but Cersei's not going to do it. We already know from the prophecy that the valonquar (probably Jaime) is going to kill Cersei so we know she's not going to commit suicide. And we know that KL is still there when dragonfire is hitting the streets. And we know that D & D have said that the dragon flying over KL is important for Bran's future.

What's the difference between bombing a city and nuking Hiroshima? They're the same in principle, right? : p

You keep saying Dany but I don't think Dany makes that call. I think Bran makes that call. It could very well happen that Bran uses Rhaegal instead of a Daenerys-ridden Drogon supposing that Rhaegal is alive at that point. But there's foreshadowing that Bran and Daenerys are both involved.

The epilogue you're talking about isn't an epilogue that I think we're going to get because I think that's where the army of the dead is defeated not where the NK dies. I still think Daenerys is in the North. I don't think this is going to be Daenerys' downfall just another obstacle in her way. Personally, I think Daenerys is going to go down as a very controversial figure in history and I suspect it's because as GRRM says he's fascinated by figures treated badly by history which is why he's a Ricardian.

Wouter · December 10, 2017

17 hours ago, WindyNights said:

In the books, the Vale army won't have obsidian weapons so I imagine they'll get wiped out and be resurrected as wights. Daenerys and the Others invasions will be at the same time in the books rather than Daenerys coming first and then the Others invading. That changes a lot. In the show, the whole Vale Army isn't there but we haven't seen any indication that they have obsidian weapons yet unlike the Unsullied.

In the books, the Vale army may stay in the Vale. If we assume they will go north like in the show, though (unlikely given their situation in AFFC), why wouldn't they get access to the best weapons?

Edited December 10, 2017 by Wouter

screamin · December 11, 2017

23 hours ago, WindyNights said:

In the books, the Vale army won't have obsidian weapons so I imagine they'll get wiped out and be resurrected as wights. Daenerys and the Others invasions will be at the same time in the books rather than Daenerys coming first and then the Others invading. That changes a lot. In the show, the whole Vale Army isn't there but we haven't seen any indication that they have obsidian weapons yet unlike the Unsullied.

Like Wouter says, if the Vale ultimately ends up fighting as allies with the North (which I think is foreshadowed by positioning Sansa close to key power players there) why in the world would the North refuse to share their effective obsidian weapons with the Vale? Doesn't the North want to win against the NK?

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But what about the people that didn't see them? What about the people that saw but didn't understand? What about the people that fought them but disagreed? And you realize that I'm expecting many of her own men to be in KL when it happens.

What about them? If the soldiers fighting by Dany's side fought by her side to defeat the NK and chase him and his zombies out of the North and halfway down the continent - they will know that Dany's fighting in good faith...and if they have ANY powers of observation at all in watching what her dragon does they would KNOW that her dragon alone wouldn't have been capable of blowing up KL by itself, hence blaming her for it when it happens after her and her dragon previously saved their asses in the North would be farfetched. As for 'the people' aside from Dany's allies - since when has the show OR the books ever shown 'the people' to be a significant factor on their own? IIRC, exactly ONCE - when the High Sparrow used them and channeled their anger for his own purposes. He's dead. So again, WHO of 'the people' do you think is going to take this lie and run with it all over Westeros to discredit Dany? Who is left that is capable? And if you think that there's time to introduce a brand-new character charismatic enough to turn Westeros against Dany based on a lie in the penultimate book or the last season of the series - well, that sounds like pretty shitty writing to me.

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You don't have to link the GOT wiki. I already know about that. They only exploded what was already there under the Sept of Baelor. In the books, Tyrion found that cache and took it out to use against Stannis' army but didn't understand what the heck it was doing there. There's a lot more places that are rigged to blow besides that.

I linked to the GOT Wiki - which told info about the books - because you were saying things that directly contradicted it. You said that Tyrion only found and emptied one cache - he found and used at least two. You said Tyrion mainly burned new wildfire in Blackwater Bay - the link shows that much of the wildfire burned in the Bay came from Aerys' old caches. So there are at least two places Aerys' old rigs are disarmed. And you therefore have no reason to be sure that the whole city is still 'rigged to blow'. How are twenty year old fuses supposed to still be viable in damp sewers? How well can a chain reaction work when at least two links have been removed? Most importantly, WHY would Dany attack the Red Keep with her dragons if - as you insist - Cersei would have fled KL before Dany arrived? None of the plot you describe seems to hang together or make much sense.

Edited December 11, 2017 by screamin

WindyNights · December 12, 2017

On 12/10/2017 at 10:25 AM, Wouter said:

In the books, the Vale army may stay in the Vale. If we assume they will go north like in the show, though (unlikely given their situation in AFFC), why wouldn't they get access to the best weapons?

The Vale's going north in the books like the show. That is LF's plan. To capture Winterfell for Sansa Stark.

Anyways, I don't expect them to have any obsidian at all. I said it back there but Daenerys and the Others are going to invade at the same time. I don't think there will be any time to outfit the Vale with any obsidian.

Stannis does send orders to mine some obsidian to send to him before Dragonstone falls but it's unknown if they got the order before it fell or if they were able to send any even of it did. And would they have sent enough to outfit over 20 k men?

WindyNights · December 12, 2017

On 12/10/2017 at 4:25 PM, screamin said:

Like Wouter says, if the Vale ultimately ends up fighting as allies with the North (which I think is foreshadowed by positioning Sansa close to key power players there) why in the world would the North refuse to share their effective obsidian weapons with the Vale? Doesn't the North want to win against the NK?

What about them? If the soldiers fighting by Dany's side fought by her side to defeat the NK and chase him and his zombies out of the North and halfway down the continent - they will know that Dany's fighting in good faith...and if they have ANY powers of observation at all in watching what her dragon does they would KNOW that her dragon alone wouldn't have been capable of blowing up KL by itself, hence blaming her for it when it happens after her and her dragon previously saved their asses in the North would be farfetched. As for 'the people' aside from Dany's allies - since when has the show OR the books ever shown 'the people' to be a significant factor on their own? IIRC, exactly ONCE - when the High Sparrow used them and channeled their anger for his own purposes. He's dead. So again, WHO of 'the people' do you think is going to take this lie and run with it all over Westeros to discredit Dany? Who is left that is capable? And if you think that there's time to introduce a brand-new character charismatic enough to turn Westeros against Dany based on a lie in the penultimate book or the last season of the series - well, that sounds like pretty shitty writing to me.

I linked to the GOT Wiki - which told info about the books - because you were saying things that directly contradicted it. You said that Tyrion only found and emptied one cache - he found and used at least two. You said Tyrion mainly burned new wildfire in Blackwater Bay - the link shows that much of the wildfire burned in the Bay came from Aerys' old caches. So there are at least two places Aerys' old rigs are disarmed. And you therefore have no reason to be sure that the whole city is still 'rigged to blow'. How are twenty year old fuses supposed to still be viable in damp sewers? How well can a chain reaction work when at least two links have been removed? Most importantly, WHY would Dany attack the Red Keep with her dragons if - as you insist - Cersei would have fled KL before Dany arrived? None of the plot you describe seems to hang together or make much sense.

See my reply to Wouter as to why I don't think the Vale will have any obsidian.

I already said that I expect most of Daenerys' army to be within KL when it explodes. That's part of where the drama comes from. The people she saved with Drogon become the people she sacrificed with Drogon.

I expect we'll just get scenes showcasing that the people might not like Daenerys anymore. I don't think we'll see anyone central like the High Sparrow.

I already said that it's not Daenerys who will do it herself. She's just the collateral damage. It's Bran that pushes the big red button.

On the wildfire, here:

Quote

Old wildfire is 'fickle'; any flame or spark can set them off. Too much heat—such as being exposed to sunlight for even a short time—could lead to a fire. Once the fire begins, the heat makes the wildfire explode violently, which can lead to a vast chain reaction. The more volatile jars of wildfire are transported from place to place only by night, in carts filled with sand to lessen jostling at all, and then sealed in wax and placed in rooms pumped full of water

In the books, the pyromancers say they found 200 jars of wildfire under the Sept of Baelor but there's more than that spread around.

In the show, it's already there and Cersei just uses what's there.

Thousands of jars of wildfire were gathered and placed in key positions under King's Landing. Hundreds were placed under the Dragonpit and the Great Sept of Baelor, under every one of the city's gates and even under the Red Keep itself. The pyromancers did their work in secret and did not trust their apprentices with the knowledge.

Theres thousands of jars everywhere ready to explode. The fact that they're makes them more volatile not less.

And even if you're right, Drogon can just breathe fire in the critical areas to make them blow up. Like the pyromancers are afraid sunlight will make them go off. Dragon flames should be enough.

Edited December 12, 2017 by WindyNights

Edith · December 12, 2017

Take everything with a big grain of salt but there's apparently a leak of scripts pages of season 8 at free folk. https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/7ja1jr/little_more_info_from_m0ther_superi0r/

The format, dialogue does seem to scream D&D and both a moderator from the site and frikidoctor believe that the pages might be legit. This doesn't mean they are. While friki has gave real spoilers in the past, the majority of them comes before the episodes aired, which mean his source is probably someone who translate the episodes. The moderator from freefolk, well she was one of the biggers believers of Lads and the one who "certified" lads2, but that doesn't mean she's right or have any insight sources.

1. Cersei kipnapping Jon is really surprising. In the commentaries for episode 7 season 7, D&D tease that they had written an scene that both Lena and Kit would find interesting and sexy

2. Queen Dany with and heir but no mention of King.

3. Both Pod and Tormund dying. Not surprised about the last one, he was supposed to die in the original scripts for season 7.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Edith

Eyes High · December 12, 2017

35 minutes ago, Edith said:

Take everything with a big grain of salt but there's apparently a leak of scripts pages of season 8 at free folk. https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/7ja1jr/little_more_info_from_m0ther_superi0r/

The format, dialogue does seem to scream D&D and both a moderator from the site and frikidoctor believe that the pages might be legit. This doesn't mean they are. While friki has gave real spoilers in the past, the majority of them comes before the episodes aired, which mean his source is probably someone who translate the episodes. The moderator from freefolk, well she was one of the biggers believers of Lads and the one who "certified" lads2, but that doesn't mean she's right or have any insight sources.

1. Cersei kipnapping Jon is really surprising. In the commentaries for episode 7 season 7, D&D tease that they had written an scene that both Lena and Kit would find interesting and sexy

2. Queen Dany with and heir but no mention of King.

3. Both Pod and Tormund dying. Not surprised about the last one, he was supposed to die in the original scripts for season 7.

I doubt these are legit--among other things, Tyrion refers to the war against the WWs as the "War for the Dawn," a phrase never used in the show that I can recall--but Bronn surviving and ending up with the Twins would not surprise me in the least. Tyrion's promise to double whatever Bronn was being paid in 7x07 all but guaranteed it. Bronn was promised a castle, so "doubling" his reward would mean two castles.

Edith · December 12, 2017

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I doubt these are legit--among other things, Tyrion refers to the war against the WWs as the "War for the Dawn," a phrase never used in the show that I can recall--but Bronn surviving and ending up with the Twins would not surprise me in the least. Tyrion's promise to double whatever Bronn was being paid in 7x07 all but guaranteed it. Bronn was promised a castle, so "doubling" his reward would mean two castles.

Yeah Sue the fury has just said they are fake!

https://twitter.com/suethefury/status/940609131752382464

Game of Thrones final season moving every character to a new location

http://ew.com/tv/2017/12/12/game-thrones-final-season-location/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_facebook_entertainmentweekly

Edited December 12, 2017 by Edith

YaddaYadda · December 12, 2017

35 minutes ago, Edith said:

Yeah Sue the fury has just said they are fake!

Good. I'd hate for Jaime to go back to Cersei after she threatened to kill him.

glowbug · December 12, 2017

I miss the leaks from last year mostly because it gave us so much to discuss and made the wait a little less painful. Without something major to discuss the show isn’t as much in my mind as it was last year.

YaddaYadda · December 12, 2017

So I've been thinking about how last season ended and the start of this one. Is there any chance, they'll replay that scene when Bran sees the NK breach the Wall someone in the middle or at the end of the first episode after everyone has arrived at Winterfell, after the reveals that need to happen, happen? Like maybe that scene with Bran is more of a flashforward and him getting a quick glimpse into the future?

Edith · December 12, 2017

Maybe. They could definitely play with it. It would give time to Team Dany and all the drama with Jon parentage to play out

Edited December 12, 2017 by Edith

bubble sparkly · December 12, 2017

The main thing about those leaks that I could see happening is Jon fighting the NK while Dany gives birth. That would be a major throwback to Rhaegar and Lyanna, only hopefully with a different outcome for DJ! Like, RJ start a war and are “punished” by dying and DJ end a war and are “rewarded” by living.

Wouter · December 12, 2017

16 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Vale's going north in the books like the show. That is LF's plan. To capture Winterfell for Sansa Stark.

In the books, the Vale is snowed in so the Vale armies (which are not noted to be especially adapted to winter warfare, unlike in the show) cannot move out unless they have a sizable fleet. LF's plans are very much longterm and require Sansa to be widowed first, so she can marry Harry the Heir (Sweetrobyn also needs to disappear before this can happen, but not before the marriage is secure).

If anything, what has happened in the show in S6 and S7 suggests LF may end up getting killed in the Vale as a result of Sansa turning on him, possibly with the physical aid of Arya and under long-distance advice by "3-eyed" Bran. LF may also get involved in the (f)Aegon story before that happens. I don't think he will get the opportunity to send an army to take Winterfell.

The outcome in the show also points to this: LF's army takes it, but Jon rules it as king and LF is sidelined. Which suggests Jon takes Winterfell in the books (or inherits it from Stannis), maybe with men that used to belong to Stannis (along with northerners and wildlings).

WindyNights · December 13, 2017

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

In the books, the Vale is snowed in so the Vale armies (which are not noted to be especially adapted to winter warfare, unlike in the show) cannot move out unless they have a sizable fleet. LF's plans are very much longterm and require Sansa to be widowed first, so she can marry Harry the Heir (Sweetrobyn also needs to disappear before this can happen, but not before the marriage is secure).

If anything, what has happened in the show in S6 and S7 suggests LF may end up getting killed in the Vale as a result of Sansa turning on him, possibly with the physical aid of Arya and under long-distance advice by "3-eyed" Bran. LF may also get involved in the (f)Aegon story before that happens. I don't think he will get the opportunity to send an army to take Winterfell.

The outcome in the show also points to this: LF's army takes it, but Jon rules it as king and LF is sidelined. Which suggests Jon takes Winterfell in the books (or inherits it from Stannis), maybe with men that used to belong to Stannis (along with northerners and wildlings).

Sansa only needs her marriage to Tyrion to vanish. There are a lot of ways to do that including annulment or a belief that Tyrion is dead when she marries Harry. SR is dying as is.

And yes, I expect for the Vale to use its fleet to transport its army to the North likely White Harbor.

LF being killed at a castle made of snow seems to point to him dying at Winterfell especially since that's the castle that Sansa was building out of snow.

Eyes High · December 13, 2017

8 hours ago, glowbug said:

I miss the leaks from last year mostly because it gave us so much to discuss and made the wait a little less painful. Without something major to discuss the show isn’t as much in my mind as it was last year.

I disagree. While it was nice to get spoiled so thoroughly, having complete leaks so early on in the game took all the fun out of the speculation frenzy during the off-season. With that said, if I had to be spoiled thoroughly for one season, I would have preferred it be the last one as opposed to the penultimate season.

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa only needs her marriage to Tyrion to vanish. There are a lot of ways to do that including annulment or a belief that Tyrion is dead when she marries Harry.

There aren't "a lot of ways," though. Theoretically, yes, Book Sansa can obtain an annulment, but she can't do so in practice without outing herself as Sansa Stark in hiding in the Vale, something GRRM openly acknowledged. She can't marry Harry until she's either widowed or obtains an annulment, and she can't obtain an annulment until she outs herself as Sansa and reveals her location, so she would be in a bit of a bind. Neither LF nor Sansa in the books are even thinking of an annulment, with good reason (LF even says the Harry marriage needs to wait until Sansa is "safely widowed"). As for "a belief that Tyrion is dead," faking proof of Tyrion's death is no easy thing, as those attempting to pass off other dwarfs' heads as Tyrion's in order to fool Cersei in AFFC learned. Now, Tyrion could die for real, of course, but we all know that isn't happening before the last 50 pages or so of ADOS, if ever.

It's a fair assumption that GRRM, who seems to have deliberately contrived a situation where Sansa cannot remarry, fully intends the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to stick for the foreseeable future in the books, if only to explain why Book Sansa with (what's believed to be) her claim to Winterfell isn't going to be frogmarched into another marriage posthaste. Assuming that Sansa's marriage can be easily done away with is not only incorrect but it's also missing the point, in my opinion: the whole point of the Sansa/Tyrion marriage from a plot perspective is that it can't be easily undone.

Book Sansa and Tyrion are very much married and I expect they will remain so for some time. It also seems likely that had the five year gap not been scrapped, Sansa would have been married to Tyrion for the duration of those five years. TV Tyrion and Sansa's marriage seems to have been undone fairly easily to service the Ramsay/Sansa plot, but it seems likely that the Sansa/Tyrion marriage will prove somewhat more durable, at least in the short term, again for plot purposes.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Eyes High

anamika · December 13, 2017

On 12/10/2017 at 1:47 AM, Eyes High said:

Assuming a substantial denouement in the last episode and that D&D are dumb enough to let something like that slip in an offhand comment, wouldn't the information that Kit will have no free time filming S8 suggest that Jon lives?

I don't mind lots of sword swinging for Kit. Action scenes have always been his forte, and I've never thought much of him as an actor otherwise (although he did have some nice scenes in S7, like the bit with Theon in 7x07). Best to play to his strengths.

Jon could die in the last episode after doing a lot of fighting!

Kit is good with a sword, but if playing to his strengths means reducing the character to muscle then I am going to complain. I miss politically savvy, nerdy Jon from the books, who was average at best in sword fighting and spend his free time reading Maester Aemon's books, wanting to build green houses on the gift and experimenting on wights in ice cells. Book Jon is more of an administrator as opposed to a fighter. That's why I thought he would make a good political fit with Dany in Westeros. I would expect characters like Jon and Bran to play a role more in rebuilding Westeros rather than just doing the fighting in the books. Though, there is the possibility that the resurrected fire wight Jon maybe altered by his death and become just a zombie fighter with no POV! That would match the show version.

17 hours ago, Edith said:

Yeah Sue the fury has just said they are fake!

https://twitter.com/suethefury/status/940609131752382464

How reliable is Sue the Fury? Frikidoctor says that those script pages look real...

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I doubt these are legit--among other things, Tyrion refers to the war against the WWs as the "War for the Dawn," a phrase never used in the show that I can recall--but Bronn surviving and ending up with the Twins would not surprise me in the least. Tyrion's promise to double whatever Bronn was being paid in 7x07 all but guaranteed it. Bronn was promised a castle, so "doubling" his reward would mean two castles.

Bronn responsible for single handedly defeating the Golden Company and vanquishing the NK and his armies is something that David and Dan would write. They love Bronn. Considering that the show has completely erased the Tullys with Edmure being a no show last season, it looks likely that Bronn gets the Twins. Poor Tullys!

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Neither LF nor Sansa in the books are even thinking of an annulment, with good reason (LF even says the Harry marriage needs to wait until Sansa is "safely widowed"). As for "a belief that Tyrion is dead," faking proof of Tyrion's death is no easy thing, as those attempting to pass off other dwarfs' heads as Tyrion's in order to fool Cersei in AFFC learned. Now, Tyrion could die for real, of course, but we all know that isn't happening before the last 50 pages or so of ADOS, if ever.

LF's plans in the book sound rather stupid. Tyrion has disappeared and LF is waiting for Cersei, who is rather an idiot in the books, to somehow find Tyrion and have him killed? How long would Harry the Heir wait with just a betrothal. Would he not be curious as to why Alayne does not want to get married. This whole plot is so muddled.

I do agree that if Sansa's marriage is going to get annulled in the books, it's going to be at the very end of the series, when she is free to claim her identity openly as well as approach the seven for the annulment. By which time the Hound shows up, if he already has not done so for the tourney being organized in the Vale.

Edith · December 13, 2017

1 hour ago, anamika said:

How reliable is Sue the Fury? Frikidoctor says that those script pages look real...

Well I remember learning about her back in season 6, when an extra from BOB started to publish spoilers. She didn't denied those and when evidence (a picture) was published, she definitely confirmed them.

When Lads came out the first time, she didn't denied him either, and when more set news started to confirm his leaks, she simply said the Lads, at that point, had not spoil the whole season.

Then came lads2 with the scripts pages. She didn't denied it and simply said the she would not comment on the veracity of the script pages. When it became obvious that lads2 was real, I think that's when the first trailer for season 7 came out, she said that everything was true, including the scripts.

Friki believe they are real because of the format and dialogue of the script, not because he has some information of season 8. The script pages also fits with D&D style of writing and with previous script pages from GOT. Also everything that spoils is posible, Jaime killing Cersei Mad King style, because she wants to burn the people of KL to defeat the NK. Queen Dany with a heir and Tyrion as hand. Bron getting his castle but doble, fitting with what Tyrion said to him last season. A Stark being prisoner of Cersei, also fitting with a Sansa line last season and a fitting as an interesting and "sexy" scene that D&D tease in the commentary of episode 7. The falling of Winterfell and the survivors running away. Tormund dying also fits with the original scripts for season 7, Pod is not that big of deal and Jaime dying, well at this point I would be surprised if he survives.

At this point we don't know, maybe when more information about season 8 comes out, we will be able to know, just as it happens with Lads last season.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Edith

Wouter · December 13, 2017

21 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa only needs her marriage to Tyrion to vanish. There are a lot of ways to do that including annulment or a belief that Tyrion is dead when she marries Harry. SR is dying as is.

And yes, I expect for the Vale to use its fleet to transport its army to the North likely White Harbor.

LF being killed at a castle made of snow seems to point to him dying at Winterfell especially since that's the castle that Sansa was building out of snow.

It's not 100% that the giant in a castle made of snow is LF; it could even be Robyn's doll even though that would seem anticlimatic. The castle of snow also isn't 100% sure to be Winterfell (could be the Eyrie, even though that seems unlikely with it being abandoned due to winter).

AFAIK the Vale doesn't have a fleet. Maybe LF could buy a fleet from corsairs (like that Rhaegar-lookalike with the dromonds stolen from Cersei) or from a free city, but he hasn't shown any inclination to do so. The performance of a Vale army in the north also remains to be seen; Stannis' southerners don't fare well (in books and show).

I note that "Robyn" is still alive and well in the show, where Harry the Heir doesn't exist. I'm not so sure he won't make it in the books.

8 hours ago, Edith said:

Well I remember learning about her back in season 6, when an extra from BOB started to publish spoilers. She didn't denied those and when evidence (a picture) was published, she definitely confirmed them.

[...]

Friki believe they are real because of the format and dialogue of the script, not because he has some information of season 8. The script pages also fits with D&D style of writing and with previous script pages from GOT. Also everything that spoils is posible, Jaime killing Cersei Mad King style, because she wants to burn the people of KL to defeat the NK. Queen Dany with a heir and Tyrion as hand. Bron getting his castle but doble, fitting with what Tyrion said to him last season. A Stark being prisoner of Cersei, also fitting with a Sansa line last season and a fitting as an interesting and "sexy" scene that D&D tease in the commentary of episode 7. The falling of Winterfell and the survivors running away. Tormund dying also fits with the original scripts for season 7, Pod is not that big of deal and Jaime dying, well at this point I would be surprised if he survives.

It's fair to say that Sue the Fury has proven to be very reliable, as webmaster of Watchersonthewall.com.

As for the supposed leak, Winterfell falling yet survivors escaping seems very unlikely to me. I think it will hold, and if it does fall there really should be no survivors.

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