Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Smad]

11 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

As far as we know based on what we've seen onscreen, in public she is accepting Dany as queen.

And she doesn't even need to accept Dany if you follow D&D logic about inheritance and succession in the new North. Dany is still not Queen of the 7 Kingdoms so she has no right to strip anyone of titles or hand any titles out. Jon's WotN title is illegal. So is Dany's Queenship over the North because in the North, King/Queen is now a title that gets handed out via election and not inheritance. Jon was elected to King (he didn't inherit) and he chose to give that title up. What he doesn't have the power to do is hand over his title to someone else because that's not how it works now. And Dany wasn't elected by the North so the North, including Sansa, doesn't even have to address Dany as 'your grace'. Sansa is going beyond the call of duty here but she isn't obligated to lick Dany's feet.

[nikma]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I stated what is being said about them both online and the toxicity surrounding them and why it bothers me.

I think this will only get worse in the next months. I hope this forum will be our safe space. lol

Dany vs Sansa is bad, but can you imagine meltdown online when (if?) Jon/Dany vs Tyrion happens? 

[GraceK]

I mean, there was already a Vanity Fair article written as soon as this teaser dropped with the headline “ Clash of the Queens!” Like really?  🙄 

[nikma]

Yeah. I really don't like Joanna Robinson. Not as a person, but I don't like her contribution to the fandom at all. 

[Smad]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

Dany vs Sansa is bad, but can you imagine meltdown online when (if?) Jon/Dany vs Tyrion happens? 

I would prefer Jon vs Dany quite frankly. Because that meltdown would amuse me to no end. But sadly it's always poor Sansa who gets screwed over by the promotion (3rd Season in a row...wonder what poor Sophie Turner did to D&D). Can't have any shine come off the dumb Disney prince and the nutty pyromaniac because they need to sell this crap.

[nikma]

 meltdown in the fandom is half the fun. lol

[whateverdgaf]

I think this clips hints at Dany having grown as a diplomat. She is acting courteous and isn't trying to appear intimidating, but instead gracious and pleasant. Clapton said that Dany's previous white coat was to make her appear as a saviour, which is probably how Dany is presenting herself towards the Northerners (which she is, essentially). 

Appearance wise,  the mixture of red and white of Dany's coat reminds me of a Weirwood Tree and Dany's hair is framing her face to make her look more gentle, and it looks like she is trying to appear friendly and open. I think this suggests she is trying to win over the North and make them like her. Behaviour wise she certainly isn't going down the intimidation route, but instead hopes to ingratiate herself judging by the way she is dressed and approached Sansa. I don't think we've seen this approach from her before, not with other powers.  To the slavers and Cersei, and around her Westeros allies, she wore black and grey and her hair was more severe, making her look more intimidating. Here she seems to be adopting her 'Mhysa' persona, which makes sense as she is the Northerner's saviour more than anything else. 

[Smad]

3 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think this clips hints at Dany having grown as a diplomat. She is acting courteous and isn't trying to appear intimidating, but instead gracious and pleasant. Clapton said that Dany's previous white coat was to make her appear as a saviour, which is probably how Dany is presenting herself towards the Northerners (which she is, essentially). 

I'm not making any judgements until I've actually seen the complete scene. There is a reason they cut the clip the way they did. But everyone should be used to that kind of trailer trickery by now. So I don't understand the meltdown and premature judging of anyone's behavior.

[whateverdgaf]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

I'm not making any judgements until I've actually seen the complete scene. There is a reason they cut the clip the way they did. But everyone should be used to that kind of trailer trickery by now. So I don't understand the meltdown and premature judging of anyone's behavior.

Clapton has always used hair and costume to relay to the audience information about a character, and we can see Dany's hair and costume quite clearly. Especially considering Clapton has specifically said that she used a white fur coat on Dany to evoke the image of a saviour, it stands to reason that this why Dany is dressed in this manner.

[Smad]

13 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Clapton has always used hair and costume to relay to the audience information about a character, and we can see Dany's hair and costume quite clearly. Especially considering Clapton has specifically said that she used a white fur coat on Dany to evoke the image of a saviour, it stands to reason that this why Dany is dressed in this manner.

I don't care what the show is going for. I only care what they actually do. They can wear rainbow striped for all I care. Only actions count. And unlike the showrunners, I don't believe a new attitude comes with a new outfit. It didn't work for me in past Seasons, it's not going to work now. And even last Season, when Dany was wearing dark for most of the Season, she burned unarmed prisoners of war, she destroyed food, she asked for knee-bending despite any logic or claims, she was only held back from attacking KL directly with dragonfire by more level headed people, she held an entire realm hostage over her entitlement. Then she wears white for 1 episode and rides out to save the cute guy she wants to sleep with and in the process gives the NK the means to break through the wall. Savior? Hardly. Not at all actually, even when she wore white. So yeah, I don't care about wardrobe.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Smad

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

I agree, especially about Arya's mentality. She was never one to care about social status or origins, she always had an open mind and it helped her a lot along her way; I can't see her joining the Northern lords in their foreign whore rhethoric. I can see how she and Daenerys would bond and I hope it's going to happen. Yet, to play the devil's advocate, she's also extremely protective of Jon and she doesn't give a fuck about diplomacy or political niceties. She could also be a challenging presence, especially in the very beginning, and give Jon a couple of headaches with her no BS attitude and off with their heads conception of conflict resolution. 

Yeah, I can totally see Arya welcoming Dany because Jon loves her and Sansa doesn't and dragons are awesome (she named her direwolf after a dragon queen or a dragon, didn't she?) At the same time, when Dany finds out about Jon's superior claim to the throne, she won't be able to avoid feeling shock and even some passing anger and suspicion toward Jon, wondering if he had a hand in setting her up for this demotion. If Arya reads that in Dany's face, she might get pretty defensive of Jon, thinking that Dany's displeasure and distrust in Jon's good fortune may indicate a dangerous lack of commitment to Jon. (If Arya abstains from saying so to Dany's face, we'll know she's learned something from the last conclusion she jumped to).

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

It annoys me that they have to feed into this toxic fanbase and pit the two most popular female characters against each other.

*looks at all the popularity polls, YT reaction videos etc.* The two most popular? I think you might be forgetting someone... ;) *waves Arya Stark banner* #notsubtlefan

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Where was this kind of reaction when Dany, a no one in Westeros, didn't observe basic courtesy in regards to Jon, refusing to address him with the right title and basically acting like she was better than him.

*looks at the episode threads, this thread, YT reaction videos etc.* This kind of reaction was/is everywhere.

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I don't think we can analyze the entire relationship between Sansa and Daenerys, even in the first 2 episodes, based on 3 secondes we saw. 

I don't think that it's possible to analyze more than the reactions that were featured, as well as the state of mind of the characters (where they come from). Even the EW article said that Sansa would have a problem with Jon bending the knee to Dany "initially" so it's obvious that this first contact doesn't encompass their whole interaction this season. Thankfully.

We all knew, and probably everybody on this forum said at one point, that as soon as there would be footage it would be dissected to no end.  Now we have new footage and oh, surprise, it's dissected to no end!  At least it's about the upcoming season and not rehashing the same debates...

Who expected fireworks for Daenerys? It was raining anvils of giant proportions during all of S7 re: the North wouldn't welcome her + Sansa was pissed off when she got the raven. When the little info we had began to trickle last spring/summer I imagined that she would be commiserating with Tyrion and maybe Varys about their respective king and queen not listening to them enough. On the other hand, I personally expected her to play it smoother and smarter in public. I thought she'd be of exquisite politeness with her powerful guest while concealing her understandable misgivings, at least or especially in the beginning. It isn't a question of "vs" here, it's a question of development for one character. In a sense, the powerful guest's identity doesn't matter much, as long of course as there's no personal beef.

Which leads me to wonder about Jaime's arrival. Will he bring some troops with him, enough to be considered at least a "worthy" ally beyond his own person? Will all the Starks know about Bran and the window? Will Daenerys really be ready to let bygones be bygones? Who will be "political" and who will be "emotional"? I'm not sure who will accept him or reject him, or whose position I'd agree with; it would surprise me if Jon didn't (after he forgave Theon) but you never know.

IIRC, Bran wasn't showed remembering who pushed him (only his fall in a vision) and the Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback establish that if he wants to know something, he has to look for it, specifically. Imagine, if remembering that it was Jaime actually brought back Bran's feelings and personality, along with resentment and vengeful thoughts? My jaw would hit the floor, LOL.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I'm more interested in what is going on with Arya and Bran and considering that we are getting nothing in these promos so I'm concluding that whatever the story arcs for Arya and Bran will be GOOOD. 

Arya is probably having her private reunions with Gendry/Hound and Bran/Sam are huddling together coming up with a strategy to break the ' You are a secret Targaryen' news to Jon.

But I agree. Jon/Dany coming to WF and Sansa not being pleased is stuff we already knew from last season.  I am indeed looking forward more to seeing season 8 Arya and Bran. Knowing how Bran changes between seasons on this show, we could see a totally different Bran and Arya has so much story and plot to cover and so many characters to interact with, every little Arya scene will be too spoilery to show I guess

27 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

*looks at all the popularity polls, YT reaction videos etc.* The two most popular? I think you might be forgetting someone... ;) *waves Arya Stark banner* #notsubtlefan

LOL! Yeah, Arya is even more popular than Dany! There is a skewed view of Sansa's popularity because most online discussions tend to revolve around her. Sansa does have a loud and vocal fan base that wants her to become queen, marry Jon and have 10 kids that look like Ned and Cat.  Among the general audience Arya and Dany tend to be more popular.

Edited January 7, 2019 by anamika

[Smad]

21 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

*looks at the episode threads, this thread, YT reaction videos etc.* This kind of reaction was/is everywhere.

This thread has S7 in depth episode discussion about Jon and Dany's first meeting and Dany's treatment of Jon? Guess I missed that.

I had a look at the 7x03 episode threads. Not many people had an issue with it. Certainly not those who would condemn the same behavior where Sansa is concerned. Doesn't seem to be an issue for them when it's Dany.

And youtube...really?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

you had two sisters at their worst.

Which is exactly what GRRM told the fan base many years ago; " The sisters have issues to get over " I just think they brought Arya back a bit late and rushed almost everything in S7.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Yeah, I can totally see Arya welcoming Dany because Jon loves her and Sansa doesn't and dragons are awesome (she named her direwolf after a dragon queen or a dragon, didn't she?) At the same time, when Dany finds out about Jon's superior claim to the throne, she won't be able to avoid feeling shock and even some passing anger and suspicion toward Jon, wondering if he had a hand in setting her up for this demotion. If Arya reads that in Dany's face, she might get pretty defensive of Jon, thinking that Dany's displeasure and distrust in Jon's good fortune may indicate a dangerous lack of commitment to Jon. (If Arya abstains from saying so to Dany's face, we'll know she's learned something from the last conclusion she jumped to).

Why would Arya welcome Dany because Sansa doesn't? The sisters are in a good place now. Even if they'll probably never be besties because they're too different, their childhood issues were settled. I don't remember either that Arya ever based her dislikes (or likes re: commoners) on Sansa's opinion. For example, she hated Joffrey and LF because they were turds in silky clothes, and she didn't trust the latter because she knew he was shady since Harrenhal.

I actually think that if Arya has issues with Dany, it will be in the very beginning, time to make sure that the Dragon Queen is truly in love with Jon and maybe, time to accept the fact that her favorite brother has now a woman in his life as important as Arya herself (it doesn't seem like Arya, who let Nymeria go, but you never know). The different cast interviews have stated that Daenerys sincerely loves Jon, and she proved it wasn't just talk when she lost one of her children in her attempt to save him and their friends. Imo, as soon as Arya establishes that fact, and after a warning ("if you ever hurt my brother...") there shouldn't be big problems. I don't see how Daenerys could suspect Jon to have a hand in setting her up for a demotion, since it originates in his conception and birth; he had no say in the matter. Emilia Clarke's "cut deep" remark implies imo that Dany will be hurt by the situation more than anything else so I feel that the reveal will lead both of them to reassess who they are (not only Jon) and not lead to a conflict where Arya would have to protect her brother.

There's also the pregnancy factor, and how early in the season it would happen. If Dany is pregnant with Jon's child, Arya might also feel protective of her brother's baby and the woman who carries said baby.

What I wonder, on the other hand, is if she'll trust Dany's entourage and especially, I wonder about Arya and Tyrion, and Arya and Varys. Will the latter's discussion with Ilyrio that she eavesdropped in S1 make a comeback, prompting her to distrust him at first? Also, if Tyrion is jealous romantically, or even only resentful of Jon's influence on Dany, she'll see it. I expect more tension on this side...well, if Arya interacts with those characters. I think she might not take part in councils and hang out with the fighter group instead.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[WindyNights]

10 hours ago, GrailKing said:

 Like she was jumping up and down with giddiness when Jon told her the north is hers.?

I think there's a reason GRRM put out the excerpt of Queen Alysanne going north to meet the Lord (Lady ) of Winterfell.

Jon though , not sure if he truly understands Sansa's feelings, he knew her as the sister who wanted to leave the north, now though she's the one more fiercely protective of it, to a point it could be detrimental to his plans.

I don't know 1- 2 episodes tops before both woman see each other in a better light  .

That doesn't really make sense for GRRM's Sansa who is actually charming warm and courteous even when she doesn't like the other person.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

I agree that it is beaten to death, but in that episode where those man came together, Stark sisters did some together as well. I don't think that D&D are misogynists. In E6 you have Dany's speech where she is like "so many stupid man that just want to be heroes and outdo each other", 

 

I don't think that this fandom is on the level of Star Wars, but a lot of things in this fandom are toxic. I don't think that they could show anything without hysteria in some parts of the fanbase. 

D & D are definitely misogynists but in a 90's male liberal kind of way. 

 

Arya: "Most girls are stupid".

 

The show writes as one type of female being better than another rather than saying it's okay to be girly. 

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That doesn't really make sense for GRRM's Sansa who is actually charming warm and courteous even when she doesn't like the other person.

GRRM's Sansa and D&D's Sansa are now two totally different characters. They have nothing in common. At all.

10 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

The show writes as one type of female being better than another rather than saying it's okay to be girly. 

I would not be surprised if Sansa does some sword fighting next season. She is already an expert in defense strategy and knows better than veteran soldiers about how armor should be made.  If leaks are right, she has correctly deduced that Cersei's army can secretly get North and attack WF while Jon was wrong when he stated that the harsh Winter snows would prevent them from doing this.

Edited January 8, 2019 by anamika

[WindyNights]

Another potential leak that's getting traction:

 

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That doesn't really make sense for GRRM's Sansa who is actually charming warm and courteous even when she doesn't like the other person.

We haven't seen GRRM's finished Sansa product yet.

[GrailKing]

From FF

Analysis of the last vid of FK (meeting Jon, Sansa and Daenerys)

FK speculates on why Sansa delivers Winterfell to Daenerys soon, and he believes she does it because of the letter Jon sent her informing that he had kneeled before the mother of dragons. FK alludes to the conversation that Sansa had with Little Finger, in which he insinuated the possibility of Jon marrying Daenerys. All this translates into a tense meeting between both characters as you can see. By the way, FK believes that Jonsa will never happen.

On the possibility of pregnancy Daenerys, as many have commented in the posts, FK believes that it is too early to notice the physical symptoms in Daenerys.

Finally, about the dragons that precede the new scene: FK believes that the dragon dance will occur between Vyserion ridden by the NK and Drogon ridden by pregnant Daenerys in the last episode of the season (remember that it is a theory, please ).

That's all mates, have a wonderful day lovely folks.

[screamin]

16 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Why would Arya welcome Dany because Sansa doesn't? The sisters are in a good place now. Even if they'll probably never be besties because they're too different, their childhood issues were settled.

Old habits die really hard, in my experience. My brother and I get along much better than we used to, but he'll take a view opposite mine just to be contrarian sometimes. My observation of many people at Thanksgiving convinces me this is a common trait in families. :)

Not to mention, if you know your tastes and inclinations are generally the opposite of someone else's, you'd get a sense that if they hate something or someone, you'd probably disagree on that, too.

23 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't see how Daenerys could suspect Jon to have a hand in setting her up for a demotion, since it originates in his conception and birth; he had no say in the matter.

Yes, if she believes it's entirely the truth AND that Jon had nothing to do with the information surfacing now. But look at the sources. The person who brings in a paper proving that Rhaegar married Lyanna just happens to be Jon's best friend who just happened to have stolen a tedious ledger with no idea whatsoever that it contained a wedding certificate proving that Rhaegar and Lyanna's child is legitimate and therefore goes first in the line of succession. And the only person who gives any testimony that child was born AND grew up to be Jon is Bran - and no matter how scary his foresight talent is, there's no way to prove if he decided to lie about this. And as Jon's brother, he has a vested interest in Jon's benefit. Neither of these people can be considered disinterested witnesses.

It would be really odd if a person so heavily invested in her identity of Queen as Dany is didn't wonder if these people are trying to fuck her over somehow. And since Jon is the prime beneficiary of this revelation, it would be weird if it didn't at least momentarily occur to her that Jon might be in on it. She hasn't known him long enough to be completely immune from the worry that he might not be the man she thought he was.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

A friendly reminder that replies to your fellow members should be kept civil, please. Some posts are toeing that line in here recently.

Thank you.

[GraceK]

Just to lighten the mood... got this from Freefolk:: 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

 

Brienne be like 

Edited January 8, 2019 by GraceK

[Advance35]

Well it was everything I thought it was.

Jon has bent the knee, Dany owns Winterfell, lock, stock and barrel.  If Dany was inclined, she could have Sansa thrown out onto the dirt road and this fact is not lost on the eldest Stark daughter.  She resents it, she resents Jon for putting it in place and she resents Dany for just having the ability to destroy her.  She's really just a lodger in Winterfell, her clout, what there was of it, is gone.  If she feels strongly about something, Dany can simply say "no" and that's the end of it.  If the North were independent, Sansa might have a leg to stand on but Jon handed that over.  It's a hard nut to swallow.

So she'll give the lip service but she can't pretend to like it.  Not when she's at someone else's absolute mercy.

I'd feel the same way.

I'd also point out, that people crowing about how Sansa should get over it because there are bigger problems, don't seem to say the same about Tyrion, whom we know for a FACT is very conscious of the balance of power and is working to secure a position for House Lannister in what's left of the world, assuming they all come through this.  

Edited January 8, 2019 by Advance35

[GraceK]

Dany doesn’t own Winterfell. People are taking that clip too literally. It’s a throwback to when Ned says to Robert “ I’ve been guarding the North for you your Grace, Winterfell is yours”.  Sansa is just greeting the visiting Monarch, it’s a way of saying that while she is there, Winterfell is hers. It’s being hospitable to the Queen. Like hey, my Doritos are your Doritos. 

ETA:: That was my interpretation anyway 😊

Edited January 8, 2019 by GraceK

[Leila6]

I love how we all assume Dany will be pregnant next season. Of all the many plots and possibilities, if that doesn’t happen, it will be the most shocking of all.

 

On a shallow note, what is with Dany’s ascot? I know it’s cold and I don’t begrudge her a scarf, but it looks like the wrong time period to me. I find it distracting, but I know very little about fashion. ::shrugs::

[anamika]

54 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Dany doesn’t own Winterfell. People are taking that clip too literally. It’s a throwback to when Ned says to Robert “ I’ve been guarding the North for you your Grace, Winterfell is yours”.  Sansa is just greeting the visiting Monarch, it’s a way of saying that while she is there, Winterfell is hers. It’s being hospitable to the Queen. Like hey, my Doritos are your Doritos. 

ETA:: That was my interpretation anyway 😊

 

Sansa is still Dany's vassal though. If Dany is similarly inclined as Sansa, she would be well within her rights to kick Sansa out and give WF over to one of her allies who fought for her - like the Greyjoys. She could apply the same logic to Sansa as Sansa applied to Ned Umber and Alys Karstark considering Ned Stark rebelled against Aerys and Targaryen rule. And I think Sansa is well aware of this and the power dynamics at play. Considering which it would only be natural for her to be apprehensive and resent that she now has to be beholden to a Targaryen queen.

But thankfully, Dany seems to be similarly inclined to Jon - one of the reasons for why Jon probably liked her - in that she does not seem to be blaming the children for the sins of their fathers as long as they are loyal to her. She has fallen in love with Jon who is a Stark. A Lannister is her hand. She is currently in the North to defend the North, not conquer it - as per her own words.

And finally, even if Jon did not bend the knee, Dany's aim is to still conquer and rule the 7K at the end of it all. And if and when they defeat the WW with Dany's help, would Sansa want to fight against Dany and her dragons? Torrhen Stark bend the knee for a reason. The smart thing to do would be to make a strong alliance with house Targaryen and be loyal so that the Starks can continue as before as leaders/wardens of the North and WF. If Sansa realizes this, it would make her a decent politician who is looking out for the best interests of her people and the Starks.

Edited January 8, 2019 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

Conquering all 7 kingdoms wasnt easy for Aegon. The North back then planned to resist him. In the S7 "Conquest and Rebellion" video, Sansa says that the swords that Aegon took from the Northerners weren't twisted, burnt, or mangled. And then Viserys ominously adds "Yet." The implicit threat of being burned alive to force people to go along with whatever Dany wants isn't a hero's arc. It would be like everyone has to walk on eggshells while Dany is holding a gun to their face: "Don't make any funny moves now. You'd be stupid to defy me."

Aegon had bouts of benevolence. But that was in the context of him bending everyone to his will. It's not like people liked it. Theon illustrates the concept of the benevolent tyrant:

"I am your trueborn lord now, the man who keeps Palla safe."

"I might have killed every man of you and given your women to my soldiers for their pleasure, but instead I protected you. Is this the thanks you offer?"

"There will be no flaying in the North so long as I rule Winterfell. I am your only protection against the likes of him"

As soon as someone walks in thinking they are the only person who can save everyone and therefore all of their actions are justified and they deserve gratitude, alarm bells go off and I think of good ole Theon here.

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

But thankfully, Dany seems to be similarly inclined to Jon - one of the reasons for why Jon probably liked her - in that she does not seem to be blaming the children for the sins of their fathers as long as they are loyal to her

But she expected them to keep their oaths that their fathers swore. Hence, be "loyal." So it still comes back around to her expecting what is owed to her based on her past.

Also to add - Sansa's agency is a big part of the story. Even if Dany thinks she's going to be the nicest queen ever (as long as people are LOYAL), Sansa doesnt trust that. She doesn't want to be under anyone else's power ever again. Dany's goals are butting up against Sansa's self-determination. The real conflict of S8.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

But she expected them to keep their oaths that their fathers swore. Hence, be "loyal." So it still comes back around to her expecting what is owed to her based on her past.

That's sort of the point. Jon expected Ned Umber and Alys Karstark to bend the knee, be loyal and keep to the oaths their fathers swore to house Stark. And they did it. If they had not, they would have been kicked out as traitors and their lands given off to someone more loyal. The Starks also expect oaths of fealty based on their pasts and who their father was. Sansa wanted to punish Ned Umber because his father did not keep to the oaths that he swore to Ned Stark. Jon on the other hand was willing to give Ned Umber a chance if he bend the knee. And he did.

Edited January 8, 2019 by anamika

[WindyNights]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

That's sort of the point. Jon expected Ned Umber and Alys Karstark to bend the knee, be loyal and keep to the oaths their fathers swore to house Stark. And they did it. If they had not, they would have been kicked out as traitors and their lands given off to someone more loyal. The Starks also expect oaths of fealty based on their pasts and who their father was. Sansa wanted to punish Ned Umber because his father did not keep to the oaths that he swore to Ned Stark. Jon on the other hand was willing to give Ned Umber a chance if he bend the knee. And he did.

 

Funnily enough, Jon probably signed Ned Umber's death warrant by letting him keep the land and we know the WW are going to destroy the Last Hearth.

[anamika]

32 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Funnily enough, Jon probably signed Ned Umber's death warrant by letting him keep the land and we know the WW are going to destroy the Last Hearth.

Well, as Ned said when he took 7 year old Bran to a beheading - He won't be a boy forever and Winter is coming. And now Winter has come. The North is a harsh land with harsh people. They will take deaths in their stride. We have the likes of Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly and Alys Karstark who are now in charge of their houses. I think a lot of people are going to end up dying heroically - not just Ned Umber. But yeah, he's probably toast.

[Eyes High]

I think that the fact that the promo folks are okay with having Hibberd talk about Sansa’s pique at Jon’s fancy girlfriend or featuring a scene where Sansa is displeased with Jon and Dany suggests that Sansa’s attitude won’t be long-lasting or significant for the plot. Sansa and Dany have a lot in common, so maybe we’ll get a sweet scene where they bond a bit upon realizing this.

I am glad that the promo folks are saving the good stuff in the reunion department—Jon/Arya, Jon/Sam, etc.—for the show. I wouldn’t want that spoiled by a stupid promo shot.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Weren't some Umber Banners seen during the shooting of the Battle of Winterfell? I wouldn't count on them being all toast. They could still evacuate them in time, especially if the army of the dead goes to Castle Black first.

Edited January 8, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[bubble sparkly]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think that the fact that the promo folks are okay with having Hibberd talk about Sansa’s pique at Jon’s fancy girlfriend or featuring a scene where Sansa is displeased with Jon and Dany suggests that Sansa’s attitude won’t be long-lasting or significant for the plot. Sansa and Dany have a lot in common, so maybe we’ll get a sweet scene where they bond a bit upon realizing this.

Yeah I agree, they seem to be trying to hype this up exactly like the Jon/Sansa conflict from last season, and we all know what a non-event that was.  Two episodes of bitching and then they didn't see each other for the rest of the season lol.  If this Sansa/Dany stuff was anything other than unimportant fluff they wouldn't be pimping it so hard in interviews and promos.

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah I agree, they seem to be trying to hype this up exactly like the Jon/Sansa conflict from last season, and we all know what a non-event that was.  Two episodes of bitching and then they didn't see each other for the rest of the season lol.  If this Sansa/Dany stuff was anything other than unimportant fluff they wouldn't be pimping it so hard in interviews and promos.

I disagree. We got Jon Vs Sansa for two seasons. Jon and Sansa argued all the time towards the end of season 6, whereupon Sansa lied to Jon, kept important information from him and was displeased that the lords ignored her and made Jon King. Then they clashed again next season, with Sansa undermining Jon and going so far as to consider deposing him under LF's influence. Jon may not have been physically there, but Arya had taken up the mantle for him and was standing in his stead against Sansa. And then we also got Arya threatening Sansa and Sansa considering having Arya executed before that plot resolved. Sansa also send away Brienne because she was jealous of sharing Brienne with Arya, lol.

These conflicts were also hyped in trailers and interviews.

So if people think Sansa Vs Dany is going to be a non-issue, they are going to be disappointed.  We got Sansa Vs Jon in season 6/7, Sansa Vs Arya in season 7 and we will get Sansa Vs Dany in season 8.

Did the Jon/Sansa and Sansa/Arya conflicts get resolved amicably? Yes. And most probably so will the Sansa/Dany conflict. But I am sure D&D will milk it for two - three episodes of character conflicts before the AOTD attack.

Edited January 8, 2019 by anamika

[John Potts]

I had another random thought about the ending: what if "Plunging Lightbringer into his beloved's breast" happens... because Jon uses Lightbringer to deliver Baby Starkgaryen by Caesarian Section. Realistically, there would be no way for Danny to survive that (in the absence of antiseptics, infection would be certain). And I realise that "breast" is not exactly "uterus", but it's certainly close enough for prophecy fuzziness to allow it.

[YaddaYadda]

25 minutes ago, John Potts said:

I had another random thought about the ending: what if "Plunging Lightbringer into his beloved's breast" happens... because Jon uses Lightbringer to deliver Baby Starkgaryen by Caesarian Section. Realistically, there would be no way for Danny to survive that (in the absence of antiseptics, infection would be certain). And I realise that "breast" is not exactly "uterus", but it's certainly close enough for prophecy fuzziness to allow it.

I'm bothered by this. Lightbringer has not been brought in at least 2-3 seasons, I think, and if the sword was already forged as per the legend that surrounds it, then it should already exist somewhere, shouldn't it? It would be a matter of finding it and Bran can have the knowledge of where the sword is. Or they can just forgo the whole thing. 

[ursula]

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The implicit threat of being burned alive to force people to go along with whatever Dany wants isn't a hero's arc. It would be like everyone has to walk on eggshells while Dany is holding a gun to their face: "Don't make any funny moves now. You'd be stupid to defy me."

So basically ---- how feudal systems work?

Or to put in another way:

Quote

The implicit threat of being executed to force people to go along with whatever the Starks want isn't a hero's arc.

It would be like Umber and Karstark having to walk on eggshells while Sansa is holding a gun to their faces: "Don't make any funny moves now. You'd be stupid to defy me."

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah I agree, they seem to be trying to hype this up exactly like the Jon/Sansa conflict from last season, and we all know what a non-event that was.  Two episodes of bitching and then they didn't see each other for the rest of the season lol.  If this Sansa/Dany stuff was anything other than unimportant fluff they wouldn't be pimping it so hard in interviews and promos.

Exactly. The fact that they're even willing to talk about Sansa vs. Dany stuff and hype it in promotional material is a big clue as to how important it is to the plot in S8, in my opinion. Jon and Dany's most important plot in S7 was their budding relationship, and there was not one whiff of that in the promotional materials; if I recall, in the S7 promotional blitz Emilia was talking about how Dany was a powerful single woman uninterested in love. For all the Starkbowl hype, Jon vs. Sansa in S7 didn't amount to much, either: despite her vocal show of displeasure, Sansa fell in line with Jon's decisions (however grudgingly) and didn't mount a coup against Jon.

Now, I don't rule out some preliminary bitchiness on Sansa's part towards Dany (and Jon I suppose, for kneeling to Dany without consulting her), but there are two things to keep in mind: 1) Sansa is bitchy towards almost everyone, even people she cares about like Jon and Arya and 2) in S7 despite the much-hyped Starkbowl, she swallowed her personal feelings and got on with things, so there's every reason to think she'll do so in this instance as well.

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'm bothered by this. Lightbringer has not been brought in at least 2-3 seasons, I think, and if the sword was already forged as per the legend that surrounds it, then it should already exist somewhere, shouldn't it? It would be a matter of finding it and Bran can have the knowledge of where the sword is. Or they can just forgo the whole thing. 

Well, it was more of a book thought than a show one - you're right, if the prophecy was going to be significant on the show, it would presumably have been more prominent. Though why Jon would be the one to deliver their child is another mystery, unless they were fleeing Kings Landing (or Winterfell) while it's being besieged by the AotD. But it is the kind of prophecy twist I can see might appeal to GRRM.

[Colorful Mess]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

That's sort of the point. Jon expected Ned Umber and Alys Karstark to bend the knee, be loyal and keep to the oaths their fathers swore to house Stark. And they did it. If they had not, they would have been kicked out as traitors and their lands given off to someone more loyal. The Starks also expect oaths of fealty based on their pasts and who their father was. Sansa wanted to punish Ned Umber because his father did not keep to the oaths that he swore to Ned Stark. Jon on the other hand was willing to give Ned Umber a chance if he bend the knee. And he did.

Jon calls out both Dany AND Sansa--it's the same issue inverted. Dany expected loyalty just because of his family's past loyalty and Sansa expects disloyalty because of Alys/Ned's family's past disloyalty. "You're not guilty of your father's crimes. And I'm not beholden to my ancestor's vows." Dany has to earn loyalty not just expect it. This comes up again when she thinks that if Jon bends the knee his people will too. Jon's expectation of loyalty gives people their dignity. It remains to be seen how Dany handles this with her vassals, but she's going to be starting from a place of contempt because she threatens to burn people alive.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

So basically ---- how feudal systems work?

Yes it's feudalism, but my point is that the character who wants to loyalty under the implicit threat of being burned alive isn't usually The Hero in storytelling. It creates storylines where the protagonists are given motives to resist such a character in order to be free.

[SeanC]

27 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yes it's feudalism, but my point is that the character who wants to loyalty under the implicit threat of being burned alive isn't usually The Hero in storytelling. It creates storylines where the protagonists are given motives to resist such a character in order to be free.

Jon makes clear he will execute anyone who commits treason in the North, most of whom didn’t have any say in him being king.  He doesn’t have as powerful a means at his disposal as a dragon, but it’s the same.  Dany isn’t unusual in the story.

[whateverdgaf]

So my current feelings on Dany are less about whether or not she deserves to rule the North, because I don't think anyone deserves absolute control over people in the way that all the potential rulers in Game of Thrones expect, but more about what the North needs. And what the North needs most of all is to defeat the White Walkers, and it is Dany who has the best chance of bringing that about. So I'm not that fussed over Jon or Sansa's or any of the Stark's personal struggle to rule the North, because I'm less concerned over what they have done to get the North and more what they are going to do. So if Dany in charge of the North means a greater chance of success against the White Walkers, then Dany should be in charge of the North. With Jon having declared for Dany and any opposition more likely to cause division during a time when unity is needed most of all, for now the best course would be for Dany to be accepted as QITN. 

That said, if the White Walkers are defeated and priorities change and for some reason Dany is such a terrible queen it is worth the very possible suffering and bloodshed to have her overthrown, then the question can open up again. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah I agree, they seem to be trying to hype this up exactly like the Jon/Sansa conflict from last season, and we all know what a non-event that was.  Two episodes of bitching and then they didn't see each other for the rest of the season lol.  If this Sansa/Dany stuff was anything other than unimportant fluff they wouldn't be pimping it so hard in interviews and promos.

I'm incline to think of them showing two strong woman in their own ways , eventually bonding and forming a friendship like Ned and Robert, or Ned and Howland Reed.

[Eyes High]

27 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm incline to think of them showing two strong woman in their own ways , eventually bonding and forming a friendship like Ned and Robert, or Ned and Howland Reed.

That would be lovely, but realistically it will probably be less a mutual appreciation society and more a mutual understanding that they're not going to cause drama as long as there's a war to fight. Sansa's pretty prickly with everyone these days, and she has no friends to speak of as it is. Warming up to Dany would be out of character for her, but Sansa will probably come to respect her, and she will certainly appreciate Dany's assistance when Winterfell is attacked. Also, Sansa's siblings put up with her haughty shtick because they're family. Dany is not likely to have much patience for it. Still, while she may not love Sansa, she will likely come to respect her, and that may be all that can be reasonably hoped for.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

16 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa is still Dany's vassal though. If Dany is similarly inclined as Sansa, she would be well within her rights to kick Sansa out and give WF over to one of her allies who fought for her - like the Greyjoys. She could apply the same logic to Sansa as Sansa applied to Ned Umber and Alys Karstark considering Ned Stark rebelled against Aerys and Targaryen rule.

 

While Dany as queen of the 7K (and as such, indeed owner of Westeros and everything on it) would be within her theoretical rights to strip the Starks of Winterfell, her alliance with the north in general and with Jon in particular would be over, as well. Dany is allied to Jon - the normal thing to do with allies is to support them and reward them for services provided. Realistically, she could only move against Sansa in so far she can get Jon to agree or at least to accept, and preferably at least a part of the northern lords would have to accept as well.

In Westeros, it's generally quite normal to strip rebellious/defeated lords of their lands, castles, etc. The Tullys had it happen to them during the books/show, and arguably Robert should have done it to the Greyjoys after their first rebellion (not doing so has proven to be a mistake, even if in other instances Robert's mercy worked well). One could argue that the Starks should have stripped the Boltons of their lands and titles, long ago.

In the books, Jon allies with Lady Karstark and arranges a way for her to regain her castle and lands, but he has good reasons to trust her as she rebels against her uncles who support the Boltons. He also takes hostages from the Wildlings, though.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Wouter