Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don’t see how you can cite the Sansa/Brienne dynamic as evidence of classism when, as you acknowledge, Brienne is also a noblewoman.  Sansa expects Brienne to follow orders because she swore an oath to do that, no different from any other knight.

 

I meant classism in the sense that Sansa does not acknowledge that Brienne is also a noblewoman, only there of her own cognizance because of her oaths to Catelyn. Sansa does not acknowledge that they are in fact equals and treats Brienne like someone who is only fit for fighting. She tells Jon the same thing - you are the military man, but I know Cersei blah blah. The show's version of Sansa thinks that she is the only person in Westeros who is well versed in politics.

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

Saying she expects Jon to “take orders” is also skewed.  She disagreed with his decisions and wished that he followed her advice. Everything about the Northern story is admittedly a confusing muddle, but the Season 7 conflict between Sansa and Jon (and the absent Jon) was framed far more in terms of policy disagreement than any sort of class issue.

Come on. It's not that she just disagreed with his decisions. That's simplifying it overly. She has disagreed with his decisions many times and they have argued and debated many times when they are just by themselves or with their close allies and Jon has not had a problem with it. In this specific instance, she disagrees with him again and again in front of a gathering of Northern houses, interrupting him when he is trying to talk and insisting that he do what she wants  - If Jon had done as she demanded in there, his authority as king would have finished. Jon has just been king for a week, his grip on power is tenuous, he's the bastard son of Ned Stark, the houses are already grumbling - and to complicate matters, Ned's true born daughter is sitting by his side, disagreeing with everything he says. You think that's ok? That's why Jon requests that Sansa not undermine him, whereby Sansa compares him to Joffrey!

So either Sansa knew what she was doing in there and deliberately undermined him or she is a political dunce who did not know the ramifications of her actions - which even Davos and Brienne understand considering their expressions.

Jon never having Sansa's full support in what he was doing is what made it easier for LF to turn people like Glover against Jon. House Stark was not a unified front last season and LF exploited that.

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

That’s hypocritical only in the sense that anybody who gives advice while declining on other occasions to listen to others’ advice is.  Jon ignores everybody in his Northern council but gets frustrated when those down south don’t believe his doomsday warnings, for instance.  Is that hypocritical?

Again, it's not that they refuse advice, it's the way in which they refuse that advice.   The only time, he's objected to her advice was when she actively undermined him in front of the rest of the houses. The rest of time he actually considers her advice. He asked her what he should do before the BOTB when she scolded him. He asked her about Tyrion - and listened. Only changing his mind, when he gets the letter from Sam about dragonglass and realizing that's more important.

I would say that Jon has a lot of patience dealing with Sansa considering she has lied to him and kept information from him and all she has done for two seasons now is constantly nag him about listening to her. Brienne on the other hand, just tries to warn Sansa about LF a couple of times and gets snapped at by her - even when they are alone. That's why she is a hypocrite - unable to take her own medicine and then complaining to LF about Jon not listening to her.

And I don't see the comparison at all between Sansa not listening to Brienne's warnings about LF  - someone she knows is a very bad man - and Jon's frustration with making people believe about this very dangerous threat from the North.

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know what's going on there. Kaysen762 very recently said that Friki told at least two people about his Tyrion information before putting up his first spoilery video this fall, since Kaysen762 was DMed with Friki's leaks by two people before he put up the first video and also said this to Claytoy:

Ah! So that's this piece of mystery solved. Claytoy must have got hold of Friki's leaks and leaked it as his own. I was wondering about this.

Edited November 20, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Except that Sansa trusts Brienne implicitly and still treats her like garbage, so "trust issues" isn't much of an excuse for Sansa's behaviour towards her. (The same goes for Jon.)

I don't think she's treating her like garbage, she may be short, but Brienne pledged to honor her orders and though she does have Sansa's welfare in mind; she continued to push after Sansa gave an order.

Brienne treated Pod like garbage. I'm not talking about his training, I'm talking the inn, or her self loathing and berating him, that's well above what Sansa is doing, and Sansa has more on her plate and her scars are still months old fresh.

9 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

But there wasn't a fight between Sansa and Arya. Instead the two solved things amicably. So Brienne wouldn't have been forced to fight Arya. And as Brienne wanted to keep both girls safe, more than anyone she could have been trusted to help solve things without either girl being hurt.

Whatever Sansa's reasons for being rude to Brienne, Brienne still deserves better than to be treated with nothing other than rudeness or indifference. 

Sansa was capable of being caring and showing warmth to Arya, Bran and Jon. They may have been her siblings, but it shows that Sansa is capable of being pleasant and friendly towards others.To put in the effort for Brienne would be enough, but she doesn't even do that. There is no hint of effort on Sansa's part to return the friendship and kindness that Brienne has offered. And you don't have to be trusting to be kind. 

I hope that in season 8, Sansa's treatment of Brienne will be addressed. Brienne's 'fuck loyalty' does indicate some change in attitude in Brienne, she is no longer holding loyalty as sacred and is willing to see the grey in things, so its possible that in season 8 that she will be speaking up for herself more and acting out of a desire to do what is best, not what Sansa wants. Whether this creates conflict between the two is yet to be seen. That said, with Jaime coming North next season I doubt that Sansa will be Brienne's primary scene partner or their relationship will take precedence in Brienne's story. The writers have always seemed to place greater emphasis on Brienne and Jaime than Brienne and Sansa, so Sansa's treatment of Brienne will probably receive little attention. It's possible that D&D only bother to write about Brienne and Sansa when it is necessary for plot and conflict, but either way I think it means Brienne will be leaving the Starks' service next season, otherwise they would have put more effort into creating a relationship between Brienne and Sansa that is worth getting invested in. 

You do realize this whole scene we're talking about is well before Sansa and Arya figured stuff out.

So my argument stans, Sansa was again preventing LF from using her.

the rest I answered to E's Hi.

[whateverdgaf]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

 

Brienne treated Pod like garbage. I'm not talking about his training, I'm talking the inn, or her self loathing and berating him, that's well above what Sansa is doing, and Sansa has more on her plate and her scars are still months old fresh.

I still believe that Sansa's casual and consistently cold and dismissive attitude towards Brienne is worse, because Brienne is putting in the effort to show to kindness to Pod and help him learn, whilst also apologising for any harshness on her part. She makes mistakes in her relationship with Pod, but she also makes the effort to fix them There is no effort on Sansa's behalf. Sansa's moments of rudeness towards Brienne wouldn't matter if they existed in a context where she otherwise treats Brienne with genuine affection and friendship, and yet she does not and never shows any signs of a desire to do so. 

As for Sansa helping Brienne keep her oaths by sending her away, Sansa would have better succeeded in doing that by taking her into her confidence. Bienne has proven herself trustworthy time and time again, and she would want a peaceful solution more than anyone. And whatever her reason for sending her away, she could still have treated Brienne with greater respect both inside and outside that scene. Being cordial is about as good as it gets from Sansa, and really nothing compared to what Brienne deserves.

I think it's interesting what Sansa's attitude towards Brienne says about Sansa, as she is the one person entirely under Sansa's command. I think the way Sansa treats Brienne; her immediate subordinate, highlights Sansa's flaws in her leaderships skills and the pitfalls of putting someone so young in authority, and that she is cold towards Brienne because she feels that is the only way to be take seriously. Season 8 Sansa may be forced to confront this and deal with it. I hope the writers do show signs of a change in Sansa's attitude, just to show that she is maturing and growing, especially if her endgame is to end up in a position of authority.

Of course more importantly to me, because they are all I care about, I'm looking forward to seeing if Sansa has any reaction towards Brienne and Jaime next season. She has had Brienne at her beck and call and has probably grown accustomed to it. Having Brienne show loyalty to another person, let alone a Lannister, is going to be unwelcome.

[cambridgeguy]

22 hours ago, anamika said:

The classism comes in because teenager Sansa thinks she knows better than people like Jon, Davos, Brienne etc.  Sansa mocks Davos (Despite Davos setting her straight about the Karstarks and getting them the Mormonts) and scolds Jon for listening to Davos and Tormund instead of her. That's the classism in her. It shows when she openly questions Jon's decision in front of the Northern lords - no respect for the bastard KITN.  Even Brienne and Davos were side eyeing her there. And hypocritical to boot considering she kept pushing her unsolicited advice on Jon and then yells at Brienne for daring to do the same.

That's not (just) classism there.  Davos was the right hand man for another king, and while we know he's a cool dude Brienne herself mentioned how Davos could be seen as an opportunist who joined up with Jon because his alternatives were to either wander around like a vagabond or stay at Castle Black. 

Undermining Jon is a character flaw - she spent years being treated like a pawn, plus her father and brother were killed for trying to do the honorable thing and were pretty much outmaneuvered by Littlefinger and Tywin.  In particular Robb's actions crippled the North.  It's understandable that she has a giant chip on her shoulder and doesn't want to see yet another relative (a guy who was already killed by his own men) go down that path.  Unfortunately for her she's overcompensating and will likely continue to do so when Dany comes in.  After all, Dany is the daughter of the man who executed Rickard and Brandon and is the one who roasted the Tarlys to a crisp.  Trust is going to be a bit hard to come by.

[Smad]

16 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If the Northerners are mad at Jon for bending the knee when he turns up with Dany, two dragons and somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 troops, then they truly are the morons the rest of the 7 kingdoms thinks they are. If they had one brain cell between them they would zip it while Dany is assisting in fighting the NK and try to negotiate independence after the war is over.

Of course the Northerners are morons. That's how D&D have been writing them. Everything gets sacrificed in the service of Jon and Dany (and Cersei). But I don't see why anyone would blame them for any ill will towards Jon. They chose a king to be independent again. I would grumble too if someone gave my freedom away. Maybe the whole thing could have been softened if Jon actually bothered to keep communications open instead of only sending 2 messages in what must have been months. Or if he actually stopped by Winterfell when he journeyed north or on the way back down and explained the situation in person. For someone who supposedly likes the north so much he sure did everything he could to avoid it.

16 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

But we pretty much already know how this is going to play out. The Northeners will spend 1 or 2 eps calling Dany a foreign whore and the Mad King’s daughter and railing at Jon for bending the knee. Then, the Winterfell attack will happen and Jon and Dany will lead their respective troops. After the battle the Northeners will probably decide Dany is okay after all, then the survivors will all focus their hatred on Cersei and the NK and make their way to KL together.

Well of course we already know how it will go. Everybody loves Dany. Those who don't are idiots and D&D love making that a plot point over and over.

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, it's a completely sensible reaction.

Sure lets ignore context as usual. How was bending the knee in the way that Jon did it sensible? Dany had already agreed to fight together and devote her troops and dragons to the fight without the demand of bending the knee. So why did he do it? Because she had feelz and he had feelz. What a stupid 'reason'. The whole thing could have been avoided with a political marriage. That neither her or his advisors or they themselves thought of that solution just shows how moronic the writing has become. Didn't Dany leave Daario behind for exactly this reason?

16 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"Hating Sansa" is not "hating women." Heck, it's not even "hating 'feminine' women." Lyanna Mormont doesn't dislike Sansa because she's feminine, she dislikes her because Sansa was being patronizing and condescending, as opposed to Davos, who gave her the respect she deserved.

The idea that the only reason anyone could possibly have a problem with Sansa's actions is hating feminine women is completely nonsensical. It's nothing more than an attempt to cut any criticism of Sansa's behaviour off with an accusation of sexism or hating girly girls.

And let's be real, TV Sansa's problem isn't that she's a girly girl, is it? It's that she's condescending and bitchy pretty much all of the time. Lyanna picked up on it, being a decent judge of character, and acted accordingly. That's on Sansa, frankly, not Lyanna.

It's not about Sansa specifically. It's about Sourpuss' general attitude towards 'feminine traits' and how she constantly dismisses them. What D&D don't grasp is that there are more than 3 ways for a woman to be strong (or feminist) or to contribute. You don't have to be a man in a woman's body (Arya, Brianne) and you don't have to be a megalomaniac (Cersei, Dany) and you don't have to be a 'feminine traits' woman hater (Lyanna). So Sourpuss doesn't want to be sitting by the fire and knit clothes (despite the fact that I have yet to see her do anything at all except ridicule everyone), fine. It still needs to be done by someone. Do D&D think soldiers need no clothing under that armor? Are they supposed to march, especially during winter, without socks? Or that the wounded need no bandages? Teaching women/girls to fight is all well and good. But then teach boys/men how to sew and whatnot. Because someone has to. Fighting naked in winter sounds like a bad idea to me.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I still believe that Sansa's casual and consistently cold and dismissive attitude towards Brienne is worse, because Brienne is putting in the effort to show to kindness to Pod and help him learn, whilst also apologising for any harshness on her part. She makes mistakes in her relationship with Pod, but she also makes the effort to fix them There is no effort on Sansa's behalf. Sansa's moments of rudeness towards Brienne wouldn't matter if they existed in a context where she otherwise treats Brienne with genuine affection and friendship, and yet she does not and never shows any signs of a desire to do so. 

As for Sansa helping Brienne keep her oaths by sending her away, Sansa would have better succeeded in doing that by taking her into her confidence. Bienne has proven herself trustworthy time and time again, and she would want a peaceful solution more than anyone. And whatever her reason for sending her away, she could still have treated Brienne with greater respect both inside and outside that scene. Being cordial is about as good as it gets from Sansa, and really nothing compared to what Brienne deserves.

I think it's interesting what Sansa's attitude towards Brienne says about Sansa, as she is the one person entirely under Sansa's command. I think the way Sansa treats Brienne; her immediate subordinate, highlights Sansa's flaws in her leaderships skills and the pitfalls of putting someone so young in authority, and that she is cold towards Brienne because she feels that is the only way to be take seriously. Season 8 Sansa may be forced to confront this and deal with it. I hope the writers do show signs of a change in Sansa's attitude, just to show that she is maturing and growing, especially if her endgame is to end up in a position of authority.

Of course more importantly to me, because they are all I care about, I'm looking forward to seeing if Sansa has any reaction towards Brienne and Jaime next season. She has had Brienne at her beck and call and has probably grown accustomed to it. Having Brienne show loyalty to another person, let alone a Lannister, is going to be unwelcome.

To me; you're making it sound like Sansa's trust issues should just go puff, after years of abuse. That's not happening, not even in real life.

We also have nothing showing Sansa beyond the fire place scene treating Brienne rudely, all other scenes she's calm, friendly, she's not lovey dovey; maybe she heard her father's words also about not getting too close to his people. We probably won't totally agree here

[anamika]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's not (just) classism there.  Davos was the right hand man for another king, and while we know he's a cool dude Brienne herself mentioned how Davos could be seen as an opportunist who joined up with Jon because his alternatives were to either wander around like a vagabond or stay at Castle Black.

The problem with Sansa is that she is so rigid and unchanging in her views, that it's hard to take into account her trust issues etc.  Remember that she mocks Davos after she knows that he was right about the Karstarks and after he charms Lyanna Mormont into supporting them against the Boltons. Was this not enough to change her views on Davos considering that Davos has been more useful to Jon than Sansa herself? Why does she mock what he did? Why does she roll her eyes and compare Jon to Joffrey when he requests that she not undermine him?  Why does she snap at Brienne and rudely dismiss her? It's the lack of respect for the people she works with that points to the classism. Look at Tyrion advising Dany or even Jon for that matter when he talks to Dany as her ally - 'It's your decision your grace, but it will be better if we do this etc."

Just imagine if Sansa gave her advice to Jon this way at that meeting - 'It's your decision Jon, but would it not be better if you gave these castles to the men who were loyal to you?" instead of 'GIVE THE CASTLES TO THE MEN WHO DIED FIGHTING FOR YOU! '. Jon would have been able to consider Sansa's advice in the first case. He could only refuse what was basically an order from her in the second.

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Undermining Jon is a character flaw - she spent years being treated like a pawn, plus her father and brother were killed for trying to do the honorable thing and were pretty much outmaneuvered by Littlefinger and Tywin.  In particular Robb's actions crippled the North.  It's understandable that she has a giant chip on her shoulder and doesn't want to see yet another relative (a guy who was already killed by his own men) go down that path. 

I am not sure I understand you here. She does not want to see Jon getting betrayed and killed by the Northerners like Robb and so she weakens his position as king by undermining him in front of the weather vane lords? Besides, there's also the fact that by forgiving Alys and letting her keep her ancestral home, Jon was doing the exact opposite of Robb - who made enemies of the Karstarks by executing Rickard for treason. Jon was actually following Tywin's strategy there. 

Quote

When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.” – Tywin, ASOS

Quote

Unfortunately for her she's overcompensating and will likely continue to do so when Dany comes in.  After all, Dany is the daughter of the man who executed Rickard and Brandon and is the one who roasted the Tarlys to a crisp.  Trust is going to be a bit hard to come by.

There is a very simple solution here. Simply, that she trusts that Jon knows what he is doing, that Jon will only do what is best for the realm and support his decision.  She does not need to trust Dany  - only Jon. Because Jon has done his research, walked around Dragonstone doing interviews and getting opinions on Dany, assessed Dany's reaction to the WW etc. and come to the conclusion that Dany is a good person and would be a good queen. And only then bend the knee. I am pretty sure that Arya and Bran will support Jon next season - because they trust in Jon as a leader.

Unfortunately Sansa does not. As Sophie Turner put it succinctly after season 6 - " Sansa doesn’t think Jon has the intellect, the knowledge, and the experience that she has ".  And that's the crux of the problem. Sansa thinks that Jon is unqualified for this job.

Maybe Sansa will get to know Dany and come to the same conclusion that Jon did - and maybe this will be her story next season. Where she sees Dany as a threat to her family and the North and this creates some drama for two episodes until the WW attack and Sansa sees then what Jon saw and realizes how much they need Dany and that she is a good person and not like her father or the Lannisters. The EW article mentions that she does not stay pissed at Jon/Dany for long - maybe it's the AOTD at the gates of WF or maybe she personally gets to know Dany and changes her mind.

And besides, would Sansa be really that bothered by Dany roasting some Tarlys? She fed a man to starving dogs and wanted to kick some children out of their homes! Sansa and Dany would possibly bond over the right way to deal with treasonous traitors.

Nothing is for free. If the North needs Dany's help in defeating the AOTD, then they have to give something in return. Maybe they negotiate the terms of that deal. Maybe this is where Sansa possibly suggests a Jon/Dany marriage to strengthen the position of the North in the 7K. Somewhere in there, Jon's parentage is known and it complicates matters further. Suddenly Jon is another Targaryen - what will the North do now? I know what Arya's reaction will be. It will be interesting to see Sansa's.

Edited November 20, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

After years of abuse, Sansa can't act like everything is completely normal. She became cynical, cold, untrusting,... As Ramsay said, he is part of her now, everything that happened is part of her now. The same applies to Bran and Arya. 

That's why Stark reunion in S7 was so bittersweet. There are deep scars on all of them, from years of trauma, suffering and abuse. No matter what, even though they're family and together, they're essentially strangers to each other now.

Edited November 20, 2018 by nikma

[whateverdgaf]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

To me; you're making it sound like Sansa's trust issues should just go puff, after years of abuse. That's not happening, not even in real life.

We also have nothing showing Sansa beyond the fire place scene treating Brienne rudely, all other scenes she's calm, friendly, she's not lovey dovey; maybe she heard her father's words also about not getting too close to his people. We probably won't totally agree here

I think that Sansa should put in the effort like she does for others. There have been scenes since Sansa escaped from Ramsay in which Sansa showed care for other people. I don't mind those instances of rudeness on their own, they are understandable and forgivable, but there is nothing sufficient in the rest of their relationship for me to believe that Sansa cares for Brienne as much as Brienne deserves. I don't think Sansa is intentionally cold or rude to Brienne, I think Sansa just doesn't care about Brienne at all. Calm and friendly is not sufficient. Not after Brienne risked her life to save Sansa and has dedicated herself to Sansa's wellbeing.

The writers could have included a scene in which Sansa shows an interest in Brienne, talks to her, shows affection. They could still acknowledge Sansa's trauma whilst still giving the audience a clear indication that Brienne is worthwhile to Sansa. These scenes exist between other characters, between Brienne and Pod, Daenerys and Missandei, Davos and Gendry, Arya and Lady Crane. They are willing to make time to build up such relationships, even short lived ones. But the writers decided that such scenes have no place between Sansa and Brienne.  At this rate, they are unlikely to. Of course, this might just be because plot wise Sansa is essentially a goal to Brienne, and their relationship isn't going to progress outside of Brienne showing loyalty to Sansa. Which sadly means that in the upcoming season we won't get any development in that sense.

And Brienne isn't Sansa's subject. She is her saviour. She isn't a Northerner and anything she does for Sansa is out of kindness and selflessness. Sansa should show some signs of recognising that.  

Edited November 20, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[OhOkayWhat]

About Sansa trust issues, besides all the other previous traumatic events, she recently survived Ramsay Bolton.

Ramsay Bolton.

Ramsay.

 

I rest my case.

[nikma]

Post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms :

 

- Negative thoughts about yourself, other people or the world

- Difficulty maintaining close relationships

- Feeling detached from family and friends

- Feeling emotionally numb

- Always being on guard for danger

- Irritability, angry outbursts or aggressive behavior

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20355967

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think that Sansa should put in the effort like she does for others. I don't mind those instances of rudeness on their own, but there is nothing sufficient in the rest of their relationship for me to believe that Sansa cares for Brienne as much as Brienne deserves. I don't think Sansa is intentionally cold or rude to Brienne, I think Sansa just doesn't care about Brienne at all. Calm and friendly is not sufficient. Not after Brienne risked her life to save Sansa and has dedicated herself to Sansa's wellbeing.

The writers could have included a scene in which Sansa shows an interest in Brienne, talks to her, shows affection. These scenes exist between other characters, between Brienne and Pod, Daenerys and Missandei, Davos and Gendry, Arya and Lady Crane. They are willing to make time to build up such relationships, even short lived ones. But the writers decided that such scenes have no place between Sansa and Brienne.  

And Brienne isn't Sansa's subject. She is her saviour. She isn't a Northerner and anything she does for Sansa is out of kindness and selflessness. Sansa should show some signs of recognising that.  

I believe we got some of that in 6-2, talking about Arya, her empathy for Theon.

Anything by Brienne does is primarily  because of duty, any bodyguard who allows emotions in protecting someone is a bodyguard one step slower and closer to getting both themselves and clients dead.

The writers could have, and I believe they gave some, may be less than you may like, but it's there.

Brian Cogman more or less agrees with Sansa and her emotional state and her upcoming reaction about Danny.

[whateverdgaf]

21 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I believe we got some of that in 6-2, talking about Arya, her empathy for Theon.

Anything by Brienne does is primarily  because of duty, any bodyguard who allows emotions in protecting someone is a bodyguard one step slower and closer to getting both themselves and clients dead.

 

We did, just not for Brienne. Which means that Sansa is perfectly capable of showing Brienne the care and friendship her deeds deserve, she has just chosen not to. 

Brienne isn't a bodyguard because she is getting paid, this isn't just a job for her. Her sense of duty all stems from an emotional place, from her love of Catelyn.  The only reason why Sansa isn't dead is because Brienne allowed emotions in protecting her. If Brienne didn't, she would have just accepted Sansa's dismissal the first time she offered her services and left her to it. Sansa could show some signs of recognising this and trying to offer something in turn, but the writers have decided not to do so. And therefore, we can only conclude that Sansa doesn't care about Brienne, despite everything Brienne has done for her.

It's quite a similar relationship Brienne had with Renly, in a sense. Brienne gives, someone else takes and she is expected to be content with that. But I think Brienne's arc may lead her to accept she deserves more; her accepting Pod calling her a lady last season is an indication of this, and the development in her relationship with Jaime next season will also probably give cause for Brienne to revaluate some assumptions about herself and her worth. The writers might have decided that having Sansa not really show Brienne the gratitude she deserves would be necessary for Brienne's character to progress, which is why they framed Brienne and Sansa's relationship in such a one-sided light. 

[bubble sparkly]

Does it seem from filming that we probably won’t even get much interaction between Brienne and the Starks in s8? I feel like she will probably have most of her scenes with Jaimie.

I guess they could have Sansa tagging along behind B/J, but the writers have not put any effort into establishing a positive relationship between Sansa and Brienne so it just seems like it would be really easy to stick Sansa with Gilly and the other non-fighters and have B/J doing their thing whilst using their fighting skills.

[whateverdgaf]

25 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Does it seem from filming that we probably won’t even get much interaction between Brienne and the Starks in s8? I feel like she will probably have most of her scenes with Jaimie.

I guess they could have Sansa tagging along behind B/J, but the writers have not put any effort into establishing a positive relationship between Sansa and Brienne so it just seems like it would be really easy to stick Sansa with Gilly and the other non-fighters and have B/J doing their thing whilst using their fighting skills.

That's a good possibility. It does make the idea of Brienne staying in Sansa's service at the end of the series seem unlikely. I think Sansa's coldness towards Brienne is enough for Brienne to think about where she is in life, and at this point Brienne only really mattered to Sansa as a means for getting away from Ramsay, both in plot as a character.

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Does it seem from filming that we probably won’t even get much interaction between Brienne and the Starks in s8? I feel like she will probably have most of her scenes with Jaimie.

I guess they could have Sansa tagging along behind B/J, but the writers have not put any effort into establishing a positive relationship between Sansa and Brienne so it just seems like it would be really easy to stick Sansa with Gilly and the other non-fighters and have B/J doing their thing whilst using their fighting skills.

I think they're keeping it neutral friendly.

Maybe Sansa wants to go after the remaining Lannisters. S 8 can't get here fast enough, then when it gets here we will wish it hadn't arrived yet.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Does it seem from filming that we probably won’t even get much interaction between Brienne and the Starks in s8? I feel like she will probably have most of her scenes with Jaimie.

I guess they could have Sansa tagging along behind B/J, but the writers have not put any effort into establishing a positive relationship between Sansa and Brienne so it just seems like it would be really easy to stick Sansa with Gilly and the other non-fighters and have B/J doing their thing whilst using their fighting skills.

2018 filming time for Gwendoline Christie seemed to coincide with NCW’s, but I’m not sure about the fall of 2017.

[Wouter]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:39 PM, Happy Harpy said:

I think the show also gave her Theon as an option. The characters have a weirdly similar trajectory, both rejecting the Starks, betraying them for their other "family", and trusting the wrong people (he Ramsay, she Baelish) with dire consequences for their physical integrity. They formed a big emotional bond when they escaped together. Imo, show-wise only, Tyrion and Theon are the strongest options if she has to marry (again, not wishing that for her) whereas the Hound is a very dark horse.

Just in case, I wasn't talking about a military alliance (hee). "Joining forces" isn't "together as a couple". Again, Jon/Dany as a romantic couple and even more as an endgame romantic couple was considered a crackship, AFAIR. It actually still shows in the total number of works per relationship on AO3: Jon/Dany is still only 5th whereas they're quite popular now.  Of course, there are different parts in a fandom and the outlooks are probably quite distinct from one "realm" to another. I also think that after several years, many book readers involved in the online fandom went so deep into overanalyzing everything year after year that they lost perspective and began to reject many logical theories as "too easy", "too obvious", "too mainstream" etc. Last I heard, a certain number of posters on HatingTheShow.org or book-oriented forums still rejected the idea of Jon as Lyanna's son for those reasons (plus, "it's the show, it doesn't count" of course).

For me and at this point, the odds for Jon/Dany are: ruling together 55%, leaving Westeros together 25%, Dany ruling alone/Jon dead 10%, Jon ruling alone/Dany dead 5%,  both dead 5%.

Theon is not an option anymore, in his post-Ramsay (physical) state. Should Friki's info on Tyrion not be true, he remains a candidate, though. 

Jon/Dany as a romantic couple was never considered a crack theory by book readers, after all it's one of the possible outcomes if they are supposed to end up joining forces against the Others anyway (an outcome that was considered likely already by ACOK, at the latest), even if the terms of such an alliance would be speculative at that point. Book fans generally weren't as fixated on "shipping", anyway, that's more a TV thing I suppose. 

Jon as son of Lyanna and Rhaegar was an overwhelmingly popular theory on book forums already by AGOT, and its proponents include many book fans who have no love for the show (because D&D "have no respect" for GRRM, or because they dislike the writing on the show). Those who deny that have always been a fringe group among book fans. That D&D got the rights after they correctly answered GRRM's question about Jon's mother has been well known among book fans, too.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Wouter

[anamika]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Does it seem from filming that we probably won’t even get much interaction between Brienne and the Starks in s8? I feel like she will probably have most of her scenes with Jaimie.

Kit mentioned that he has not shared one piece of dialogue with Gwen. The characters have sat right next to each other and yet did not speak in the dragonpit. Clearly Jon and Brienne don't converse next season as well.

[screamin]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 12:02 PM, anamika said:

GRRM has thus far given Sansa three options with respect to marriage - Tyrion, Hound or SweetRobin/Harry the Heir. I don't see any trope reconstruction here.  If it's not any of them and she's stuck as lady of WF on the show, then she will probably marry some nobody in the future to carry on the Stark line.

There was also Willas Tyrrell - and I agree with you that the Tyrrells are likely to remain a factor in the books till the end, or close to it.

I tend to think that since Sansa's hand in marriage has been such a big deal throughout - her betrothal being bartered over and over with and without her consent and desire as a plot point - the only really surprising thing GRRM and the show can do is have her choose celibacy of her own free will - perhaps while using the possibility of her betrothal as political bait for gain when needed, like Elizabeth I.

[Minneapple]

9 minutes ago, screamin said:

I tend to think that since Sansa's hand in marriage has been such a big deal throughout - her betrothal being bartered over and over with and without her consent and desire as a plot point - the only really surprising thing GRRM and the show can do is have her choose celibacy of her own free will - perhaps while using the possibility of her betrothal as political bait for gain when needed, like Elizabeth I.

This is the ending i would like to see for Sansa. Everything about her storyline has been about her getting married for some political reason or another. At this point she probably just wants to chuck the institution of marriage in the Narrow Sea and get a couple of cats. 

[Colorful Mess]

"No one will ever marry me for love."

GRRM: thats right bitch you're gonna be alone forever lmao

That's what the Elizabeth I ending sounds like.

Since Robb failed to play the marriage game successfully, I think a good development for her is learning how to get what she wants (love) while also making a smart marriage play. It worked with Tywin/Joanna. Why not Sansa. 

Moreover, I don't think practically or politically she can remain alone forever. She knows that her status as the key to the North is too important. Not only is she personally vulnerable to exploitation by being unmarried; Winterfell would be at risk. That's why the story of Lady Hornwood was included in the books.  Ramsay ended up marrying her to expand his territory, take her castle then killed her. If Sansa wants to be alone, she would need to have constant protection. It's not necessarily the institution of marriage she should be hostile towards (because it's something she has always wanted to be a part of), its how enemies are using it as a weapon against her. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

There was also Willas Tyrrell - and I agree with you that the Tyrrells are likely to remain a factor in the books till the end, or close to it.

I tend to think that since Sansa's hand in marriage has been such a big deal throughout - her betrothal being bartered over and over with and without her consent and desire as a plot point - the only really surprising thing GRRM and the show can do is have her choose celibacy of her own free will - perhaps while using the possibility of her betrothal as political bait for gain when needed, like Elizabeth I.

A bigger surprise still if the sister who was not into marriage, Arya, ended up getting married at the end. Which was what Ned predicted for her.

I do think that marriages will be a big part at the end of the books, mainly because alliances through marriage is an important part of the series. I mean, Catelyn pledged Arya in marriage to some 12th son of Walder Frey for a bridge. During Robert's rebellion, the Tully sisters were married off to secure alliances with the North and the Vale, and we have had Lannister-Baratheon, Martell-Targaryen marriages etc. 

I would think that marriages will occur at the end of the series to secure peace between the different warring houses. If Sansa does end up in charge of WF, then she may be single at the end of the series and marry a member of another Northern house in the future. If it's Bran who takes over as Lord of Winterfell, Sansa may as well marry into another house to secure alliances.  Catelyn tells Robb when he wanted to make Jon his heir, that his Vale cousin would be a better option. One of Sansa's or Arya's  children could be Bran's heir.  Or Sansa just stays in WF, be unmarried and helps Bran as his adviser.

In the books, I suspect Rickon will be Bran's heir and continue on the Stark line.

Finally, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion still stands in the books. We need a friendly regime in KL or Tyrion's death for that to be over.

Edited November 21, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I tend to think that since Sansa's hand in marriage has been such a big deal throughout - her betrothal being bartered over and over with and without her consent and desire as a plot point - the only really surprising thing GRRM and the show can do is have her choose celibacy of her own free will - perhaps while using the possibility of her betrothal as political bait for gain when needed, like Elizabeth I.

I’ve been in fannish circles long enough to know that Sansa ending up single would be the least surprising outcome for her for many. More so now that TV Sansa was raped and tortured during her last marriage. If you assume that D&D knew Sansa’s endgame when they decided to merge her storyline with Jayne Poole’s, then it seems quite likely that that’s her book endgame as well. After all, not wanting to remarry after getting the Ramsay treatment seems like an entirely logical attitude.

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

This is the ending i would like to see for Sansa. Everything about her storyline has been about her getting married for some political reason or another. At this point she probably just wants to chuck the institution of marriage in the Narrow Sea and get a couple of cats. 

And who could blame her? If the only options GRRM offered were the Hound, (Book) Tyrion, and Robin, I’d swear off marriage, too.

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

I do think that marriages will be a big part at the end of the books (...) 

Finally, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion still stands in the books. We need a friendly regime in KL or Tyrion's death for that to be over.

GRRM in talking about the broad strokes of the ending has said that he knows who lives, who dies, and who gets married, so someone’s getting married when the dust settles.

I’ve said for a long time that the only way out of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in the books is if one of them dies. Wolves and women wed for life and all that. If Friki is right, the one who dies will be Tyrion.

[Callista]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I would think that marriages will occur at the end of the series to secure peace between the different warring houses. If Sansa does end up in charge of WF, then she may be single at the end of the series and marry a member of another Northern house in the future.

Although I don't see this happening, I think Sansa and Jorah Mormont would make a good pair. I think Jorah's capacity for loyalty and enduring love are things Sansa would appreciate, and certainly deserves after all that she's been through. He has qualities of the ideal knight she used to dream of, including the good looks (I'm referring to the show version). I don't want Jorah to continue "wasting" his love on Dany, who doesn't love him in return; he also deserves someone who can return his love.

3 hours ago, anamika said:

[Happy Harpy]

9 hours ago, Wouter said:

Theon is not an option anymore, in his post-Ramsay (physical) state. Should Friki's info on Tyrion not be true, he remains a candidate, though. 

Why not an option? Missandei/Greyworm reminded everyone that a penis wasn't a requirement for love or a sex life. Theon can't have children, but that wouldn't be the point of Sansa's marriage for me. She was already married twice for her womb, it shouldn't be the goal of a third, in or out universe.

Imo, there are two male characters that Sansa bonded with and came to her help without an afterthought, unlike someone like Baelish: Tyrion and Theon. Moreover, her scenes in S2-S3 with Tyrion are quite cutesy-shippy, her scenes with Theon in S6 are extremely emotional.

The Hound came to her help but on the show she didn't bond with him, they weren't friends or close emotionally. I don't eliminate him only because of the books, and the fact they know each other on the show, too.

R+L=J and Jonerys were never on the same level of popularity or acceptance. The former was the most mainstream theory. Yet even then, when I arrived in the fandom, all the rage was to contest it thread after thread and present it as "one option among others", hence my mention of loss of perspective, time and place. So, agree to disagree :)

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If you assume that D&D knew Sansa’s endgame when they decided to merge her storyline with Jayne Poole’s, then it seems quite likely that that’s her book endgame as well. After all, not wanting to remarry after getting the Ramsay treatment seems like an entirely logical attitude.

ITA. I'm at a point where I'm curious about the books storylines only to compare and understand how and why D&D changed, merged etc.

[bubble sparkly]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa may as well marry into another house to secure alliances

The chances of it happening are probably pretty slim, but it would be interesting to me if Sansa decided to turn the tables; instead of Sansa being used for her name/title she decides it's time she uses others for their name/title to gather power for the Starks.

If you assume that Jon/Dany end up ruling the 7K and having at least one kid, there are Stark genes on the throne to ensure Stark interests are protected.  Then, if Sansa decided to marry say Robin or Tyrion because she figured she could control them and their power, then you have a Stark in control of the Vale or Westerlands.  If J/D gave Gendry the Stormlands and he married Arya, you also have a Stark wielding power in that region.  Finally, if Bran was in Winterfell he could marry and have kids to secure the Stark line there, or if he can't procreate he could name one of Sansa or Arya's kids as his heir.

[Joan van Snark]

Is this the Sansa psychological analysis forum or the spoilers and speculation forum???

Edited November 21, 2018 by Joan van Snark

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, Joan van Snark said:

Is this the Sansa psychological analysis forum or the spoilers and speculation forum???

Well, we know from the spoilers that Sweetrobin is going to survive awhile and be a factor in the show's endgame, probably demanding Sansa's hand as the price for the Vale's continued alliance. Book SR looked to be a goner as soon as Sansa captures Harry and LF fakes up some evidence of Tyrion's death or bribes a bishop to declare Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled on the provable grounds of nonconsummation. And it would be just GRRM's perverse style to have poor one-foot-in-the-grave SR survive while stronger characters are cut down every chapter. So since the SR's spoilers show that Sansa's betrothal is going to remain political leverage and a plot mover, I think it's fair game for discussion here.

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"No one will ever marry me for love."

GRRM: thats right bitch you're gonna be alone forever lmao

That's what the Elizabeth I ending sounds like.

Since Robb failed to play the marriage game successfully, I think a good development for her is learning how to get what she wants (love) while also making a smart marriage play. It worked with Tywin/Joanna. Why not Sansa. 

 

Hey, I said 'celibacy' as a possible endgame, not 'chastity'; the concepts are not necessarily synonymous. Nobody really believed in Elizabeth I's virginity, but her hand remained a political prize.

Thing is, in arranged marriages  for politics, love tends to be the exception, rather than the rule; I even have my doubts about Tywin's marriage being considered a good marriage that way, at least on Joanna's side (ask me why, on some other thread). And in Westeros, the wife is legally subordinate to the husband. As we've seen repeatedly, the role of a bannerman - even a bannerman as noble as Ned - seeing his sovereign lord abusing his wife, is to look on in uncomfortable silence and do nothing. Yes, Jon and/or Dany will no doubt work to change things when they become ruler, but change is slow and the kingdom large. If Sansa's married off to a powerful ally who turns out to be a monster in his private life, she'll be on HIS land with HIS underlings and HIS army, and it may require an unpopular war if her loving family wanted to extricate her from a situation that most of Westeros would think is the usual lot for a married woman. I think Book Sansa, in the long run, will find that unacceptable...Show Sansa, even more so. I think the only way endgame Sansa would be willing to engage in a romantic relationship would be with a low-ranking man without a marriage that would give him the legal whip-hand of authority over her, sweet and pliable enough to accept her dictating the terms of their relationship. And who's that man?

Why, POD THE SEX GOD, of course!

Okay, sorry, I'm getting silly, though there do seem to be few spoilers about Pod.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Imo, there are two male characters that Sansa bonded with and came to her help without an afterthought, unlike someone like Baelish: Tyrion and Theon. Moreover, her scenes in S2-S3 with Tyrion are quite cutesy-shippy, her scenes with Theon in S6 are extremely emotional.

True, but Book Sansa and TV Sansa's endgames will be the same, and Book Sansa ending up with Theon would surprise me even more than Sansa ending up with Jon, and that's saying something.

Also, Theon is absent from the Dragonpit scene in 8x06. It doesn't mean he's dead, necessarily, since Jon and Dany are also absent, but the fact remains. (Ditto for Sandor, who I guess dies as a result of Cleganebowl.)

Sansa ending up with Tyrion would not surprise me in the slightest.

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Then, if Sansa decided to marry say Robin or Tyrion because she figured she could control them and their power, then you have a Stark in control of the Vale or Westerlands.

If Sansa wanted to marry someone to access their power and control them, she would not pick Tyrion. She would do what Olenna, Littlefinger, and I guess Book Margaery (who I assume was in on Joffrey's murder) did and pick someone weak and stupid she could control. Robin would fit the bill nicely. (Gemma Lannister and Emmon Frey in the books wound up with a similar dynamic, although Gemma did not want to marry him.)

...Of course, the danger in marrying someone stupid is that they give you stupid male offspring who then wind up as the head of the family and make disastrous decisions, which is what happened with Olenna and Mace (who was hellbent on Margaery marrying Renly and becoming queen). In the short term, though, marrying someone weak and stupid confers considerable advantages to women in Sansa's position.

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Why, POD THE SEX GOD, of course!

Okay, sorry, I'm getting silly, though there do seem to be few spoilers about Pod.

Scuttlebutt from S8 filming seems to be that Daniel Portman was barely around. Pod seems a likely candidate to perish at Winterfell.

Going back to Targ restoration endgame theories, GRRM's Fire and Blood (Volume 1) is out, and he retconned one of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's kids to be named Daenerys. Before, there was only one Daenerys in TWOIAF history (never queen of Westeros, was married off to a Martell prince). In F&B, GRRM added an interesting detail about the new Daenerys: she was the eldest, and Alysanne wanted her to be named heir to the Iron Throne. Relevant passage: 

Quote

...from the moment Aemon was born, the king began to speak of him as his heir, to Queen Alysanne's displeasure. 'Daenerys is older,' she would remind His Grace. 'She is first in line. She should be queen.'

Maybe we'll get a Daenerys who's queen of Westeros after all...?

I haven't read F&B (it's getting some truly terrible reviews), but someone on /Freefolk who had said that Orys Baratheon (rumoured to be Aegon's half-brother) and Argella Durrandon reminded them a lot of Gendry and Arya (respectively). Hints at an Arya/Gendry endgame...? Orys became the first Baratheon lord of Storm's End.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I haven't read F&B (it's getting some truly terrible reviews), but someone on /Freefolk who had said that Orys Baratheon and Argella reminded them a lot of Gendry and Arya (respectively). Hints at an Arya/Gendry endgame...?

It doesn’t surprise me that the reviews aren’t overly positive.  This sort of project is for hardcore nerds only, I would say.  I happen to be one, so I’ve been enjoying it (particularly as I also have two history degrees and GRRM does some fun things with the historiography).

[Eyes High]

Making Game of Thrones has been doing "Journey for the Throne" posts on their site for individual characters, featuring artwork, relevant quotes, and Behind the Scenes videos. Tyrion's was posted a few days back, and now Arya's is up. I would expect similar "journey" posts for the usual suspects (Starklings, Jon, Dany, and Cersei).

Also on the subject of potential F&B spoilers...GRRM included some interesting details about Alyssa (Alyssa? Seriously?) Targaryen, and Joanna Robinson at Vanity Fair is allllll over it:

Quote

The Tyrion Targaryen Theory Lives On: A favorite book-reader theory that’s as old as the hills posits that Tyrion Lannister is actually the bastard son of Joanna Lannister and King Aerys Targaryen, a.k.a. Dany’s father. This would make Tyrion, like Jon, a secret Targaryen—and might explain why, on the show, he was able to get so close to Dany’s dragons without being roasted alive.

There are plenty of hints in A Song of Ice and Fire to back this theory up, though I personally don’t like it. (I think, for instance, it ruins the whole Tywin-Tyrion tragedy if, in the end, Tyrion is not actually Tywin’s son. It matters that Tyrion is actually a Lannister, even if his own family has rejected him.) Whether or not the theory is true, though, Martin certainly has fun with it in Fire & Blood. Consider this description of Alyssa Targaryen:

"Her hair was a dirty blond tangle with no hint of silver to evoke the dragonlords of old, and she had been born with mismatched eyes, one violet, the other a startling green. Her ears were too big and her smile lopsided, and when she was sic playing in the yard a whack across the face from a wooden sword broke her nose. It healed crooked."

Shiera Seastar is the other Targaryen with mismatched eyes (one green, one blue), but she was a bastard. This is the first example of a full-blooded Targaryen with mismatched eyes that we know of. (Book Tyrion has pale blonde hair mixed with black.)

GRRM did warn in an interview about F&B that he'd be including hints and red herrings and that it would be up to readers to determine which was which (or words to that effect), but he sure does enjoy tweaking fans with his Tyrion Targaryen hints.

...In relation to S8, I think it's very unlikely we're going to get a last-minute revelation about Tyrion's parentage, but you never know.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

Since he will never finish the books, GRRM is free to hint and troll without having to do the hard work of committing to a plot point and convincing readers that it works. Fake history is so much easier since he can just change canon and the defenders can claim it's a deep artistic statement about unreliable narrators. The bits I've seen from the new book remind me of why I've come to prefer the TV show, despite doing my fair share of grumbling about it too: GRRM was great for pulpy plots and creating houses to root for or boo, but I just couldn't stand the faux-medieval purple prose when I last tried a reread and his writing is even worse in the fake histories.

TV Sansa is far more cynical, traumatized and drawn to power as a means of protecting herself than book Sansa has had time to become. The show is no stranger to making characters do whatever the plot requires them to do, but I feel that right now the most in-character option for this Sansa, if she even considers marriage, is to be an Olenna who tells her dumb husband what to do but also claims power openly in her own right. An adoring, intellectually inferior yet physically Neville Longbottomed Sweetrobin might be pretty close to her ideal. I don't think she'd be comfortable with someone she had to treat as a superior or even an equal, remembering her conflicts with Jon.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Since he will never finish the books, GRRM is free to hint and troll without having to do the hard work of committing to a plot point and convincing readers that it works. Fake history is so much easier since he can just change canon and the defenders can claim it's a deep artistic statement about unreliable narrators. The bits I've seen from the new book remind me of why I've come to prefer the TV show, despite doing my fair share of grumbling about it too: GRRM was great for pulpy plots and creating houses to root for or boo, but I just couldn't stand the faux-medieval purple prose when I last tried a reread and his writing is even worse in the fake histories.

TV Sansa is far more cynical, traumatized and drawn to power as a means of protecting herself than book Sansa has had time to become. The show is no stranger to making characters do whatever the plot requires them to do, but I feel that right now the most in-character option for this Sansa, if she even considers marriage, is to be an Olenna who tells her dumb husband what to do but also claims power openly in her own right. An adoring, intellectually inferior yet physically Neville Longbottomed Sweetrobin might be pretty close to her ideal. I don't think she'd be comfortable with someone she had to treat as a superior or even an equal, remembering her conflicts with Jon.

The writing for F&B in the excerpts I've seen is...not great.

I personally don't think Sansa would be happy marrying someone much stupider than she is, but happiness may not be her primary consideration in selecting a husband in the end.

The problem with Sansa's endgame is that based on potential foreshadowing or hints in the books, you can plausibly argue for Sansa's arc logically leading in numerous directions:

1. Turning her back on "the game" and marrying someone politically useless for love? Sure.

2. Coldly and cynically marrying someone stupid she can manipulate? Sure.

3. Swearing off marriage altogether and becoming the single Lady of Winterfell? Sure.

4. Ending up as queen consort? Sure.

5. Dying young at Cersei's hands? Sure.

I don't know that one of these necessarily jumps out as the endgame for her. With that said, the show seems to suggest we're looking at #3.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Hey, I said 'celibacy' as a possible endgame, not 'chastity'; the concepts are not necessarily synonymous. Nobody really believed in Elizabeth I's virginity, but her hand remained a political prize.

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I think the only way endgame Sansa would be willing to engage in a romantic relationship would be with a low-ranking man without a marriage that would give him the legal whip-hand of authority over her, sweet and pliable enough to accept her dictating the terms of their relationship

A lot of this sounds like Dany or Asha, having sex out of wedlock, keeping a side piece, and taking on pliable consorts. Dany/Sansa are not exactly the same. She was already supposed to be a queen consort and her experiences now have only made her better suited for the role. Being the wife of a high lord is what she's always wanted/expected out of life. If people dont see her ruling in her own right but see her as a political player through feminine activity and a useful counselor/advisor, they're basically describing Queen Alysanne.

4 hours ago, screamin said:

If Sansa's married off to a powerful ally who turns out to be a monster in his private life, she'll be on HIS land with HIS underlings and HIS army, and it may require an unpopular war if her loving family wanted to extricate her from a situation that most of Westeros would think is the usual lot for a married woman.

Not married off. She makes her own match. Good character development is to take on the challenge of selecting her own marriage, not swearing it off altogether. I would hate to think that Littlefinger or Ramsay changed her that fundamentally that she can't marry again (bad message for abuse victims, IMO). Trying to make a love match and a political match - that rare combo - makes her storyline interesting. I'm also kind of loathe to accept the idea that Sansa will replace her desire for love and a husband with ruling/power, something she never wanted to begin with. 

[ElizaD]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I personally don't think Sansa would be happy marrying someone much stupider than she is, but happiness may not be her primary consideration in selecting a husband in the end.

I could see Book Sansa still being romantic enough to think "well, he loves me for me and that's the most important thing" while TV Sansa might prioritize feeling safe above all other concerns, but I agree that all the endgames you listed are viable. Of course I could rank them in order of my personal preference, but even the worst-case scenario wouldn't come out of nowhere. In a strange way her fate seems both open and easy to narrow down, compared to someone like Bran, whose ultimate role and importance in the war is still very hard to grasp (no wonder fake leaks don't seem to know what to say about him).

[OhOkayWhat]

Same uncertainty I feel about Arya endgame. I think it will be the "West of Westeros" ending, but I have my doubts, of course.

[screamin]

32 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

A lot of this sounds like Dany or Asha, having sex out of wedlock, keeping a side piece, and taking on pliable consorts. Dany/Sansa are not exactly the same. She was already supposed to be a queen consort and her experiences now have only made her better suited for the role. Being the wife of a high lord is what she's always wanted/expected out of life.

At the beginning, yes, she certainly wanted this. But even in the books, where her experience was far less harrowing than the show, we see her gradually withdrawing from that ideal. Her dream prince turned nightmare with Joffrey. The option to marry lame Willas which she embraces with relief. Then the choice between marrying Lancel Turd Sandwich and Tyrion Giant Douchebag at her hideous surprise wedding. Then being engaged to her whiny cousin SR. Then witnessing what happened to Aunt Lyssa when she finally married the combo High Lord AND Man Of Her Dreams she'd always been in Twue Wuv with. Then being used by LF to hook the next heir to the Vale. No wonder that IIRC, she thought in so many words that she wasn't sure if she wanted to marry anyone anymore. Show Sansa showed her disillusionment far more graphically and bluntly, but I think the conclusion will remain the same.
 

Quote

Not married off. She makes her own match. Good character development is to take on the challenge of selecting her own marriage, not swearing it off altogether. I would hate to think that Littlefinger or Ramsay changed her that fundamentally that she can't marry again (bad message for abuse victims, IMO). Trying to make a love match and a political match - that rare combo - makes her storyline interesting. 

 

That's such a crapshoot, though. Even if she married, say,  SR and he adored her doesn't mean that he won't turn on her someday, and living in the Vale, with him, HE'D be the one legally mandated to bully her and giving the orders to his underlings. The only way she can be SURE she won't end up a legal prisoner of an unhappy marriage to a highborn male is to marry someone far below her rank and stay in the North among allies - either as ruler herself (and Bran blocks her from that), or marrying one of Bran's bannermen - one who would never have the strength or the influence to rebel against his lord. Neither of these choices would make her a power player among the kingdoms. I'd say at this point, given the choice between the chance of marital happiness and a greater probability of safety and security, she'd go for the second. Besides, I think it would be cool for the show to allow that it IS possible to remain unmarried and be happy (just as it is to be married and miserable).

Edited November 21, 2018 by screamin

[Eyes High]

45 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I would hate to think that Littlefinger or Ramsay changed her that fundamentally that she can't marry again (bad message for abuse victims, IMO). 

There are multiple characters in GOT who are rape survivors who have gone on to have satisfying romantic relationships: Missandei, Gilly, Jon, Dany, etc. Sansa deciding she doesn't wish to remarry wouldn't move the needle one way or another. And of course as pointed out upthread refusing to remarry need not necessarily mean giving up sex.

...Also, Sansa is not going to be raped and tortured in the books in all likelihood, so we can imagine that GRRM devised her endgame without having any concerns about the sort of message he would be sending.

40 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

In a strange way her fate seems both open and easy to narrow down, compared to someone like Bran, whose ultimate role and importance in the war is still very hard to grasp (no wonder fake leaks don't seem to know what to say about him).

I agree. I had all my eggs in the "Bran becomes a tree" basket before Season 6 came out, so I'm all out of ideas.

33 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Same uncertainty I feel about Arya endgame. I think it will be the "West of Westeros" ending, but I have my doubts, of course.

I do wonder if this "Can't be tamed!!!!" business with Arya and Nymeria is just misdirection from D&D. The fact that the Nymeria moment wound up on her Making Game of Thrones "Journey for the Throne" collage, complete with a link to a page where they talk about the throwback "That's not you" line, makes me a little suspicious. Seems kind of hamfisted if Arya really does decide not to settle down in the end, doesn't it? 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

40 minutes ago, screamin said:

At the beginning, yes, she certainly wanted this. But even in the books, where her experience was far less harrowing than the show, we see her gradually withdrawing from that ideal. Her dream prince turned nightmare with Joffrey. The option to marry lame Willas which she embraces with relief. Then the choice between marrying Lancel Turd Sandwich and Tyrion Giant Douchebag at her hideous surprise wedding. Then being engaged to her whiny cousin SR. Then witnessing what happened to Aunt Lyssa when she finally married the combo High Lord AND Man Of Her Dreams she'd always been in Twue Wuv with. Then being used by LF to hook the next heir to the Vale. No wonder that IIRC, she thought in so many words that she wasn't sure if she wanted to marry anyone anymore. Show Sansa showed her disillusionment far more graphically and bluntly, but I think the conclusion will remain the same.

She would marry someone if she had the choice AND she was in love. She's wouldn't swear off marriage if a good option was presented to her.  Her lack of good options is a Goldilocks tale that I don't think we have seen the end of yet.

And this gets back to Jon/Dany being a doomed relationship like Jon/Ygritte. I really can't see how Sansa "I just want to marry for love" Stark never finds it. Meanwhile Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen not only have loved multiple times, they also live HEA together? What.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[OhOkayWhat]

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I do wonder if this "Can't be tamed!!!!" business with Arya and Nymeria is just misdirection from D&D. The fact that the Nymeria moment wound up on her Making Game of Thrones "Journey for the Throne" collage, complete with a link to a page where they talk about the throwback "That's not you" line, makes me a little suspicious. Seems kind of hamfisted if Arya really does decide not to settle down in the end, doesn't it? 

Remember we are the kind of fans who read all that extra behind-of-scenes stuff and commentaries. The 95% of fans only watch the show. And I think the narrative of the show itself tells me it will be a loooong time before Arya settles down finally.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

EveryFckngChicken compiled info about the filming in Iceland and is positive that it wasn't only a photoshoot.

https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9z4v9h/iceland_revisited_new_information_on_locations/

Jonerys wedding? (...Hey, we're all thinking it.)

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

It doesn’t surprise me that the reviews aren’t overly positive.  This sort of project is for hardcore nerds only, I would say.  I happen to be one, so I’ve been enjoying it (particularly as I also have two history degrees and GRRM does some fun things with the historiography).

I have been enjoying it too. There are some really interesting things in there.

[Happy Harpy]

55 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jonerys wedding? (...Hey, we're all thinking it.)

Could be, LOL.

I can't help but link it to the Spain filming where Kit and Emilia were notably absent (or reportedly didn't film in the DP, for him). Of course, it depends on what was actually filmed in the DP since there are conflicting reports.

As I said a couple of pages back, I don't believe the show gave the NK a kind of castle not to use it. So imo while most of the characters go to KL, Jon/Dany are going North of the Wall. Maybe they found out that destroying it will destroy the NK, maybe they're going to save baby Sam, too (the WW was going for him when Sam killed it) or both.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Could be, LOL.

I can't help but link it to the Spain filming where Kit and Emilia were notably absent (or reportedly didn't film in the DP, for him). Of course, it depends on what was actually filmed in the DP since there are conflicting reports.

As I said a couple of pages back, I don't believe the show gave the NK a kind of castle not to use it. So imo while most of the characters go to KL, Jon/Dany are going North of the Wall. Maybe they found out that destroying it will destroy the NK, maybe they're going to save baby Sam, too (the WW was going for him when Sam killed it) or both.

As /EveryFckngChicken pointed out, Nutter's DP (Franco) was in Iceland, so we're probably looking at 8x01, 8x02 or 8x04. The Dragonpit scene was from 8x06.

However, as /EveryFckngChicken also pointed out, it is possible (if unlikely) that Nutter/Franco filmed something from another episode since the director for that episode was unavailable. Apparently, such things have happened in previous seasons.

Whatever they were filming there, it didn't take very long. Kit and Emilia were there between January 28th and February 1st. The Rhaegar/Lyanna wedding scene in Season 7 took less than a day to film.

...In other news, a number of betting markets now have Bran as the clear Iron Throne favourite. Inside information moving the needle...? (Betting on Bran on one website was suspended in the spring because too many people were betting on him.)

Edited November 21, 2018 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

13 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Why not an option? Missandei/Greyworm reminded everyone that a penis wasn't a requirement for love or a sex life. Theon can't have children, but that wouldn't be the point of Sansa's marriage for me. She was already married twice for her womb, it shouldn't be the goal of a third, in or out universe.

[...]

ITA. I'm at a point where I'm curious about the books storylines only to compare and understand how and why D&D changed, merged etc.

Sansa can have a sex life  even without a marriage, but I doubt it would be with Theon and even so it wouldn't be a marriage. One of the prime reasons for marriage, at least in Westeros, is to get children (and the Starks may well need a heir, considering Jon isn't really from the "main" line (and a walking corpse a la Dondarrion, to some extent, allthough this may not stop the suspected boatsexbaby), Bran is crippled and Arya may not be more inclined then Sansa to take care of getting a direct heir for Ned Stark. I disagree that this would be possible "in-universe", particularly so in the books. Eyes High rightly points out that the legal marriage to Tyrion won't be set aside as easily as in the show, so it remains to be seen how this will be resolved.

 

As for the books, I'm one of those still dying for them to come out, at least the next book. But then, I'm invested in the book characters (which do have more depth than the show characters, as is inevitable given the format) and I like for example Sansa's vale arc or the Dorne arc in the books. Things that the show discarded or resolved in (I suspect) a very different and more abrupt way. I would love to find out how Sansa gets the better of LF in the books, or how (f)Aegon (probably + Dorne) and Dany would play out. Chances are, we'll never find out given TWOW would probably only get some movement in the first and maybe not even get at all to the second. And how Jon and Stannis will play out in the books. If he does manage to get out TWOW before 2025 or so, we may yet get that.

10 hours ago, screamin said:

Well, we know from the spoilers that Sweetrobin is going to survive awhile and be a factor in the show's endgame, probably demanding Sansa's hand as the price for the Vale's continued alliance. Book SR looked to be a goner as soon as Sansa captures Harry and LF fakes up some evidence of Tyrion's death or bribes a bishop to declare Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled on the provable grounds of nonconsummation. And it would be just GRRM's perverse style to have poor one-foot-in-the-grave SR survive while stronger characters are cut down every chapter. So since the SR's spoilers show that Sansa's betrothal is going to remain political leverage and a plot mover, I think it's fair game for discussion here.

[...]

..Show Sansa, even more so. I think the only way endgame Sansa would be willing to engage in a romantic relationship would be with a low-ranking man without a marriage that would give him the legal whip-hand of authority over her, sweet and pliable enough to accept her dictating the terms of their relationship. And who's that man?

Why, POD THE SEX GOD, of course!

Okay, sorry, I'm getting silly, though there do seem to be few spoilers about Pod.

I suspect book-Pod has a bit of a crush on book-Sansa, and that's why he is extra shy about her and part of the reason why he joins Brienne in looking for her.

Daniel Portman did not film a lot, but then so did Sophie Turner (ostensibly) and studio scenes aren't too easily spotted.

Sweetrobin as a possible long term survivor in the books is not only more likely now that it would seem he makes it in the show, it was always a possibility considering Sansa's nephew may be the main reason why Sansa would turn on LF. If his survival is part of the stakes of their confrontation, Sansa may just win that one. I also had the impression that SR seemed to be showing signs of intelligence in Sansa's last chapters, as he seems to realise exactly what his relationship with Harry the Heir is.

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Making Game of Thrones has been doing "Journey for the Throne" posts on their site for individual characters, featuring artwork, relevant quotes, and Behind the Scenes videos. Tyrion's was posted a few days back, and now Arya's is up. I would expect similar "journey" posts for the usual suspects (Starklings, Jon, Dany, and Cersei).

Also on the subject of potential F&B spoilers...GRRM included some interesting details about Alyssa (Alyssa? Seriously?) Targaryen, and Joanna Robinson at Vanity Fair is allllll over it:

Shiera Seastar is the other Targaryen with mismatched eyes (one green, one blue), but she was a bastard. This is the first example of a full-blooded Targaryen with mismatched eyes that we know of. (Book Tyrion has pale blonde hair mixed with black.)

GRRM did warn in an interview about F&B that he'd be including hints and red herrings and that it would be up to readers to determine which was which (or words to that effect), but he sure does enjoy tweaking fans with his Tyrion Targaryen hints.

...In relation to S8, I think it's very unlikely we're going to get a last-minute revelation about Tyrion's parentage, but you never know.

 

GRRM has been teasing this theory for a while, which is why I hate it when this theory is seen as a "crackpot" - it's not, there are sound arguments for it even if those are not conclusive. It would seem that GRRM is at least deliberately going for a red herring, if it isn't true in the books.

However, it does seem unlikely the show will reveal this after an S7 that was silent on the matter (after a promising start to S6, with the dragons). Still, if Tyrion's possible Targaryen blood would mean he ends up on the throne (or as Hand) in the books, the show could still reach the same outcome (through other means) leaving the debate open.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The problem with Sansa's endgame is that based on potential foreshadowing or hints in the books, you can plausibly argue for Sansa's arc logically leading in numerous directions:

1. Turning her back on "the game" and marrying someone politically useless for love? Sure.

2. Coldly and cynically marrying someone stupid she can manipulate? Sure.

3. Swearing off marriage altogether and becoming the single Lady of Winterfell? Sure.

4. Ending up as queen consort? Sure.

5. Dying young at Cersei's hands? Sure.

I don't know that one of these necessarily jumps out as the endgame for her. With that said, the show seems to suggest we're looking at #3.

 

I agree that Sansa's endgame (not meant strictly in the "shipping" way) has always been one of the most unpredictable outcomes of ASOIAF, and by extension in GOT. Lots of possibilities for her.

Then again, the ending of ASOIAF/GOT is generally not predictable, except that it is a safe bet that the Others/NK will not win and that Cersei will die.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Wouter

[OhOkayWhat]

16 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Then again, the ending of ASOIAF/GOT is generally not predictable, except that it is a safe bet that the Others/NK will not win and that Cersei will die.

 

Then, we see Cersei, now the Night Queen, sitting finally on the throne, hundreds of her undead troops in front of her.

 

Fade to black

 

End credits.

 

(Somewhere, GRRM and D&D are giggling in front of a tv screen)

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

...In other news, a number of betting markets now have Bran as the clear Iron Throne favourite. Inside information moving the needle...? (Betting on Bran on one website was suspended in the spring because too many people were betting on him.)

I agree that it could be inside information - or some hardcore book readers. The show has reduced him to a side character for the general audience to think he's going to become King.

Bran has always been an important character in the series, he's part of the group of Stark kids that find the direwolves - the first scene that GRRM envisioned - and the character who starts off the series. We could be looking at the God Emperor from Dune scenario. 

Or he ends up as Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North.

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

I agree that it could be inside information - or some hardcore book readers. The show has reduced him to a side character for the general audience to think he's going to become King.

Bran has always been an important character in the series, he's part of the group of Stark kids that find the direwolves - the first scene that GRRM envisioned - and the character who starts off the series. We could be looking at the God Emperor from Dune scenario. 

Or he ends up as Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North.

Hardcore book readers with a lot of cash to move around to start placing bets...?

The timing is very interesting. BetWay suspended betting on Monday, March 12th, when a flurry of bets were placed on Bran. The previous week, Hibberd was in Belfast, where he saw an extremely spoilery scene from 8x06 filmed. BetWay restored betting a few weeks later, as far as I know, but Bran is still the favourite.

Who was placing those bets in March? Extras who saw Bran’s coronation filmed? Cast and crew have known for a while who takes the Iron Throne, so I doubt they would wait until March to place their bets.

For Bovada, the timing is interesting, too. For a long time, Jon and Dany were the favourites, but over the past weeks, Bran has become the favourite for the Iron Throne. Did something leak?

I could see James Hibberd freaking out if he witnessed Bran’s coronation with Jon, Dany and Tyrion nowhere to be found (since I tend to assume that if Bran does take the throne that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are out of the picture). Maybe that’s what he saw. If he blabbed to EW, maybe they’re the ones who started betting.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Hardcore book readers with a lot of cash to move around to start placing bets...?

The timing is very interesting. BetWay suspended betting on Monday, March 12th, when a flurry of bets were placed on Bran. The previous week, Hibberd was in Belfast, where he saw an extremely spoilery scene from 8x06 filmed. BetWay restored betting a few weeks later, as far as I know, but Bran is still the favourite.

Who was placing those bets in March? Extras who saw Bran’s coronation filmed? Cast and crew have known for a while who takes the Iron Throne, so I doubt they would wait until March to place their bets.

For Bovada, the timing is interesting, too. For a long time, Jon and Dany were the favourites, but over the past weeks, Bran has become the favourite for the Iron Throne. Did something leak?

I could see James Hibberd freaking out if he witnessed Bran’s coronation with Jon, Dany and Tyrion nowhere to be found (since I tend to assume that if Bran does take the throne that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are out of the picture). Maybe that’s what he saw. If he blabbed to EW, maybe they’re the ones who started betting.

Bran is up  to +200 at Betfair too.

King Bran with Sansa and Arya ruling at his side?

Scenarios for that to happen:

1) The Targs are all dead 

2) Dany is dead, Jon doesn't want the crown and he takes the baby with him

3) Jon is dead, Dany goes back to Meereen and leaves the baby to be raised by the Stark kids or the baby is taken with Dany back to Essos

4) The Targ fates are ambiguous, they're stranded Beyond the Wall and the dragons are dead. 

5) Jon and Dany decide they've had enough of politics and rulings so they decide to be happy. They go live somewhere else with their baby.