Season 3 Discussion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing I have really enjoyed watching over three seasons is the changing and developing relationships. I liked Jennifer and Deacon teaming up in 1989 but I also really liked how seriously he took Jennifer when she said that the signs of being a primary (having visions) always ended with her being locked up. He is usually very flippant with people (like when he asked Jones if she was finally putting a pool in the facility), but he very firmly but kindly told her that no one was going to lock her up again.

Awwwww, but poor Deacon felt left out because he wasn't in any of Jennifer's drawings. Poor guy.

I found it hilarious that in the first episode where we see Christopher Lloyd, who famously told Michael J. Fox that he didn't want to know how he died in Back to the Future but then changes his mind and prevents his own death, Agent Gale specifically tells Cassie that he wants to know how he dies and then decides that he will help Cassie and Cole in 1961 even though he knows it will cause his death.

Cassie and Cole took a huge risk going into the tent, especially once they saw that Vivian and Magdalena were there. Thank goodness she was still wearing a hat with a veil or both of them would have recognized her.

Oh, Gale. You could have taken TEN SECONDS to shoot Vivian before going to rescue Cassie and Cole in the tent. I was trying to figure out why Gale was the only one who thought to cut the canvas on the tent. The explanations I came up with in the moment were that people in the 50s didn't carry pocket knives and/or they were so panicked that it didn't occur to them.

Maybe I'm stupid, but why did they gas all of those people in the tent? What was the point of that?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Scenes from S3.E6

Mission: Missionary

 

Monkey business:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Scenes from 3.3

Short fuses:

Next steps:

Scene from S3.E4

Maximum morbidity:

[coppersin]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Maybe I'm stupid, but why did they gas all of those people in the tent? What was the point of that?

My guess: they had just witnessed (heh) a woman magically disappear into thin air. They could also describe the vests, Christopher Lloyd's character, and of course poor little Athan's involvement, all information that Jones & Co. didn't have otherwise. All it would take is one person being determined to file a detailed police report despite probably looking nuts or using their experience to write a scifi novel or something, and the group is suddenly much easier to trace in time. This way there's just a spike in disappearances instead of a mystery cult to trace.

Sadly, I'm sure they're also using the murders to indoctrinate Athan so that he's prepared for his "destiny." The speech he gave that was essentially, "everything dies because of time, we got what we needed from you, thanks for your sacrifice" and then having him be the one to gas everyone - they're definitely trying to get him in the "right" state of mind.

And speaking of kids, how creepy was Vivian and the Missionary leading lil' Pallid Man away before the carnage begins? "That's not for your eyes. Yet." Ace parenting.

Edited May 24, 2017 by coppersin

[Doyounot]

Just saw 8th episode teaching cole to dance and teaching Cassie to pick pockets was hilarious! Cassie was really funny in both! Also she looked (especially) hot at the party but i felt bad that she could barely breath (that line was funny too). I feel so bad for jennifer for being locked up by deacon after he said it wouldnt happen again. All her sayings from previous seasons were awsome and the way she said them was legit like half way through saying them she realized!

[MissLucas]

*phew* Finally made it through the first four episodes and all I can say is that I really hate that they're not aired once per week. There's so much to analyze - such wonderful, haunting visuals (99 Luftballons!), funny throwaway jokes (the shout-outs to other syfy shows), great acting and more time-travelling shenanigans. This feels like someone prepared a 12 course menu then put it all in a blender and turned it into a smoothie. (Yeah, I know there were probably good reasons for this decision and we should be happy we get that last season.)

[Hanahope]

I guess I'm the only one that thought Magdalena was Olivia and vice versa for a bit.  They look so alike.  Maybe they are just related in some way.

Those portable splinter machines are going to be tough to beat.  You gotta kill all 4 guardians at the same time.

So what is the witnesse's purpose?  To kill everyone?  If he has that much self-loathing, why not just tell his followers to go back in time and kill Cole or Cassie so he wouldn't be alive?  

Don't Cassie/Cole know where the witness will be as a child?  Didn't he tell Cassie that he lived in that house where he was conceived for several years?  Can't they just go there to change things?  

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

50 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

*phew* Finally made it through the first four episodes and all I can say is that I really hate that they're not aired once per week. There's so much to analyze - such wonderful, haunting visuals (99 Luftballons!), funny throwaway jokes (the shout-outs to other syfy shows), great acting and more time-travelling shenanigans. This feels like someone prepared a 12 course menu then put it all in a blender and turned it into a smoothie. (Yeah, I know there were probably good reasons for this decision and we should be happy we get that last season.)

Loved that third-wall(ish) moment.

I'm so torn about this.  I almost always prefer the 'binge method' when it comes to watching TV shows.  [I'm just too impatient to see 'what's gonna happen next/how is that situation going to play out']

However, with very good shows and ones that are thought/theories/discussion provoking as 12 Monkeys, it makes it hard to properly digest and write out thoughts & ideas when watching in 3-or-4 episode blocks - even if the 4/3/3 story-arcs worked well in their own right.

[Cardie]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:24 PM, CrystalMoon said:

Sometimes I think Jennifer is a little too over the top and I kind of roll my eyes.

Does anyone else think she is Cole's mother?

Yep, me too.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Jennifer and Deacon were the MVPs of episode 7! Cole was correct - Jennifer was adorable in her 50s outfit. So Jennifer when she grabbed the drink of some guy walking by and then spit it out into her cup. Also loved her heavnig her foam bra up before going to talk to one of the eggheads. And she was persistent when he couldn't take a hint that she was hitting on him, high five to her for not giving up.

Deacon, on the other hand, was also correct. He knows both Cole and Cassie well enough to know when something is going on with them. As he said, they're speaking to each other even when they're not speaking. He was right to be suspicious of Titan knowing exactly where to find Cassie and then just holding her prisoner for months. He knew that Cassie and Cole were keeping a huge secret and that it was causing a rift between them.

Poor Cole is wallowing in his "I'm a bad guy" guilt. One thing I have loved over three seasons is seeing how Cole and Jennifer's relationship has grown. It was cute when he told her that she looked adorable in her 50s look and then gave her a little pep talk, which is why it made me sad when he started snapping at her, especially since she was just trying to be emotionally supportive. When he told her to stop calling him Otter Eyes, my reaction was pure Sugarbaker: "HUSH YOUR MOUTH, SIR!" Sorry, Cole, at this point, she's earned the right to call you Otter Eyes for eternity. But I thought it was very kind of her to ignore his crankiness and tell him why she's always called him that, and that it was those words that caused him to realize he couldn't shoot his own son in cold blood. They really are like brother and sister now. They may snipe at each other and take each other for granted, but they love each other and want to help each other. And I awwwwwed when she told him that he saved her and made her see that there was another way. I can see why she relates to his son so much. She had her mother and Olivia telling her that she would destroy the world, and he has Magdalena telling him that he will become the almighty witness.

Man, poor Deacon. First he loses Cassie's interest as soon as Cole comes back. Then he rescues Cassie from Titan and all he gets from her is, "Where's Cole?" And to pour some salt on his wounds, she shoots him.

For the record, I am not cutting Cassie and Cole any more slack that I did for Ramse with the constant "MY SON!" about a kid he'd known for all of two minutes. Yes, it's hard to kill someone you love (see also: Buffy & Angel, Becoming Part 2). But you guys don't even know him! There are 7 billion people who are definitely going to die but yes, betray your friends and let all of those people die of the plague because a child who you've just met is biologically related to you. Totally worth it.

On the other hand, I wanted to high five Cassie after she hit the self destruct button on Magdalena's vest. That self righteous bitch stole Cassie's baby and then had the nerve to word it like the kid was trying to escape from Cassie. Bitch, please.

I hope Hannah survives that big ass stab wound.

Who woulda thunk that Jones and Deacon would be the ones to team up?

Why were Magdalena et al still hanging out in 1953? Why hadn't they splintered to somewhere else yet? And why did Magdalena tell Little Witness that one day he would return to Titan? Why can't he go now?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S3.E7 clip

Family reunion:

[bethy]

31 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For the record, I'm not cutting Cassie and Cole any more slack that I did for Ramse with the constant "MY SON!" about a kid he'd known for all of two minutes. Yes, it's hard to kill someone you love (see also: Buffy & Angel, Becoming Part 2). But you guys don't even know him! There are 7 billion people who are definitely going to die but yes, betray your friends and let all of those people die of the plague because a child who you've just met is biologically related to you. Totally worth it.

The difference for me here, though, is that if Cassie and Cole do manage to save their son, they can also save those 7 billion.

Spoiler

And what I think continues to be so fascinating and exceptional about this show is that we find out later that killing Athan wouldn't have saved anyone because he actually wasn't the Witness. Which is in keeping with what Cole said about not killing Jennifer - killing people never has the effect they think it will, but saving someone can actually change things. 

And speaking of MY SON, after listening to Oliver Queen growl/yell "my son" constantly during the season finale of Arrow (and Michael on Lost, for that matter), I'm beginning to wonder if there's some writers' workshop on the use of "my son" or "my boy" as a way to indicate that men really love their sons or something. Or maybe because they're afraid if they use the boy's name while running through jungles and time to try to save him, we, the audience, will forget that all important connection between a father and his son? Whatever the reason, it needs to STOP. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by kariyaki
added spoiler tags

[MissLucas]

3.5: And once again proof that a heist makes everything better! A heist with Jennifer Goines in the part of Nate is a supernova of fun. Not sure when I laughed this much in an episode of 12 Monkeys

Jennifer-as-Olivia-as-Jennifer (kuddos to Alison Down) , 4-year old Jennifer, Cher, Jennifer in full 80's get-up, Deacon in a  Miami Vice outfit, Deacon and little Jennifer, the shout-outs to the Leverage theme, the whacky scene with all their heads popping up behind shelves, the security guards and their 'cotillon' discussion - so much to love! I did not even need that glimpse of the Witness at the end to make this a perfect episode. (Had to roll my eyes a bit at the plan to bring the Word back to the future instead of making a copy in 1989, thank God for Jennifer and her remarkable brain).

Edited May 26, 2017 by MissLucas

[dargosmydaddy]

All right, since everyone else has brought up all the awesomeness of these episodes, I'm going to travel down a side path... Particularly after watching (the far inferior, but still fun) Timeless with their room full of props and costumes available for their time travelers, I really want to know where the 12 Monkeys folks get their era-appropriate garb. Frequently it's apparent that they travel back in their normal clothes... do they do some quick scavenging once they get to whenever they're going? Even if Jones has a big pile of money-- I could see how money wouldn't be necessary post-apocalypse and maybe she has a stash lying around-- it would be 2017-ish era money, which could hardly be used in the 1980's, '50's, '20's, etc. And in this last episode we saw Jennifer get into the splinter chair already dressed in her cute '50's outfit-- where the heck did it come from? 

Maybe at some point someone splintered back to 2015-ish and went on a shopping spree at a secondhand/ vintage clothing store? Maybe they do have their own Timeless-esque wardrobe room now? I know there's not the time/ space to explain all this on the show, but I'd still kind of like to know...

[Chaos Theory]

My guess is the past can't be changed.  mybguess is that The Primaries are the only ones can actually influence things that have already happened.  Which is why Jennifer is so important.  

[wanderingstar]

Quote

On the other hand, my head is spinning and I feel like I have a 12 Monkeys hangover.

This is me. I am still trying to process everything I saw in these episodes.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Gillian Rosh
Quoting a previous poster.

[Doyounot]

Great end to a great season! So many twists and everything they hint at or mention has a pay off (i was wondering if they were ever gonna mention coles mother and what she had to do with all this). Also is it just me or was the scene that athan watched of cole the same scene from beginning of the show that was describing what the world turned into?

The athan episode was done so well they made him into a real person and not the "monster" he has been the whole time in one episode. If i had to wait a week for the finale i probably would have been pissed but that finale was great!

The whole time rooting against the witness coming back to titan then when Athan was coming back i was like yay the witness coming back to titan! The shootout was epic! And then of course back to shit the witness came back to titan lol. Should have known olivia was pulling something and should have known dying man was athan but thats what makes this show so good that i didnt know until they wanted me to (making me feel dumb) and then while im remembering all the hints they gave they lay them all out (making me feel smart for remembering lol).

I wonder if deacon is gonna betray them next season (if olivias sales pitch worked) because they didnt show him saying no to her they just cut to her dragging him and using the machine.

[madam magpie]

Can someone please remind me what it means to be primary?

[madam magpie]

On 5/26/2017 at 6:47 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For the record, I am not cutting Cassie and Cole any more slack that I did for Ramse with the constant "MY SON!" about a kid he'd known for all of two minutes. Yes, it's hard to kill someone you love (see also: Buffy & Angel, Becoming Part 2). But you guys don't even know him! There are 7 billion people who are definitely going to die but yes, betray your friends and let all of those people die of the plague because a child who you've just met is biologically related to you. Totally worth it.

Cassie carried and had the baby while she was a prisoner, and then he was stolen from her and turned into a psycho. I buy her being emotionally connected, upset, and struggling to save her kid. I loved her fight with Magdalena (whom I constantly confuse with Olivia) and blowing into the room and her shooting Deacon. Mama takes no shit.

Cole has daddy issues and is super in love with Cassie. I buy him too. Plus, the goal is to save everyone.

The 1980s episode was fantastic, and count me among those who really enjoy the comedic moments. Lots of fun. Jennifer is the best.

I also liked Cassie meeting her mother.

Edited May 27, 2017 by madam magpie

[thuganomics85]

Episode Five was a pretty fun caper, that used it's ensemble very well (yay, Jennifer/Deacon!), a lot of great Jennifer moments (although might favorite might be her version of Olivia explaining the heist.  Alisen Down seemed to be having a blast basically doing an imitation of Emily Hampshire), and even an appearance from Leland again, which is always great, since Zeljko Ivanek is always awesome.  A child Jennifer was hilarious as expected.  Not surprised if ended with Jennifer finding out The Witness is Cole and Cassie's son, but I can see why she would keep the secret.

Great seeing Gale/Jay Karnes again in Episode Six.  So, even after Cassie tells him how he will die, he will end up helping them anyway.  He does seems like the type of person who would.  Oh, and Doc Brown... err, Christopher Lloyd joins the party and he's apparently the Pallid Man's father.  Of course, he is.  Kid Pallid Man was already pretty creepy, even before he grew up to be Tom Noonan!

And then shit hits the fan in Episode Seven.  Deacon figures something is up with Cassie and Cole, so Jones goes back in time and finds out why Cole killed Ramse, and that The Witness is his and Cassie's son.  Unlike Jennifer, she's just a bit more pissed about that.  Cole can't bring himself to kill him though, so now he and Cassie are on the run and are going to try and save The Witness, while a pissed off Jones and Deacon are after them and still planning on killing The Witness.  I know Cole and Cassie are the leads, but Jones and Deacon together is just scary, and I would not want to bet against them.  Especially if Jones blames them for Hannah getting injured (granted, that all happened before Cole turned, but I don't see that stopping Jones.)  Curious about Jennifer, since she went back with them, but seemed to be pushing Cole to do what he ended up doing.

I'll try and wrap up the season tomorrow!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Looking back, I knew there was something off about Olivia letting herself get turned in to 'the good guys', but have to admit did not foresee her becoming the Evil Leader up until the later stages of that last episode.

[MissLucas]

Hmm, I was convinced this was the last season. So the ending of 'Witness' left me with a huge WTF???

Anyhow, not a fan of the binge-format at all but there you go. Athan's arc (spiral, vortex whatever) worked for me just by the tiniest fraction that is James Callies' talent to make you feel forcharacters you're not supposed to like  But in general I grew pretty tired of all these people doing crazy things because they wanted to save their kid no matter the consequences. Arrow's Myson-arc might have had a thing or two do with that but I feel parental-drama-fatigue. Hopefully that's over and done with for next season (yay!).

[dirtydi]

Where was Whitley, in the last episode.  I know the actor was probably shooting another show, but did they give an explanation for his absence?

[Chaos Theory]

The Binge format has its pros and cons.  I enjoy it because I have no patience and I like to watch entire seasons in a weekend anyway.   However I do also like spending an entire week discussing a particular episode of show.  Especially if it is a good episode.   However I do on occasion think some episodes do get disccused a little too much.  Lines, dialog, and motivation get dissected to death when it would just be better to move on to the next thing.   So yeah I can see the benefit of both.  

In this case I think it worked because it allowed the show to write as if it was one long episode instead of writing each episode with a beginning middle and end.  I think it knew at the time it was going to be produced this way so It wrote like it was actually a three parter show.  It wrote it that way.  Part A  Part B Part C.  Which i found interesting.  

Edited May 29, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Possibly the best thing about episode 8 was that EVERYONE finally got to dress up! Cassie and Cole have done the most splintering into eras where they had to dress differently than usual, and we got to see Deacon in his Miami Vice outfit but this time around we go to see the whole gang (minus Ramse, of course) in period costumes and it was glorious! I loved seeing Jones all dolled up. Weirdly, Cassie's costume was the one that made me do a double take (and not in a good way). I honestly do not know a lot about the way people dressed in 1899, but the cut out shoulders on her dress seemed very anachronistic. No one at the party seemed to notice them though so maybe it was fine.

One of my favorite moments in this episode was when Jones told Cole that of all the tragedies she has suffered, the two greatest were losing Hannah and Cole not trusting her enough to tell him the truth. I think that Cole and the others tend to view her as an authority figure so it's easy for them to forget that she cares about them. I hope that telling Cole that he was like her own child cut him to the bone (as it should). As much as Jones is focused on the mission, what upset her was that he lied to her face and kept this huge secret from her. After all these years, they had become like a family and she expected more from him. What made it even worse is that when she asked why he didn't tell her the truth, he said that it would have torn everyone in their group apart, but that's what ended up happening because he didn't tell them the truth.

Loved Jennifer and Lasky's entire conversation about the yays and the nays and her finger gun. I thought it was very sweet that she was protecting Cole and Cassie because she wanted him to have the opportunity to have redemption the way that she did when he helped her.

This season, Cassie and Cole's relationship has been about their mission to find their son. Although they have been united in purpose, we haven't seen them having an actual relationship lately. It's been all business with them. I know that sometimes couples go through phases like that for many different reasons and sometimes it's necessary to put your personal relationship on hold while you take care of business, so I get it. But that's why it was so nice to see Cassie teaching Cole how to dance. It was great to see them connect on a non-mission level (even if the dance lessons were mission-related), joking around, and being normal people for a little while.

Poor Sebastian. He spent a good chunk of his life taking care of Athan like his own son, only to get stuck in the 19th century because Athan got mad at him. I understand Athan's reluctance to fulfill the destiny everyone told him about, but damn, dude. Sebastian is your only real friend!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode S3.E1

[thuganomics85]

Well, shit sure got crazy at the end!

Episode 8 was pretty fun with Cassie and Cole hiding in 1904, and doing things like tuning the fine art of pickpocketing and learning to ballroom dance (one of the reasons I like Cassie/Cole more then other couples, because the show actually has light and fun scenes between the two, that both Aaron Stanford and Amanda Schull excel at), and Rupert Graves (Lestrade!) as Sebastian.  And then the ballroom stuff with Jones, Hannah, and Deacon crashing the party (complete with Hannah removing the eye-liner, Deacon in a hilarious hat, and Jones still looking badass and scary), and the reveal of Jamie Callis as Athan/The Witness.

Episode 9 almost felt like a completely different show with the regulars as side characters, and Athan being the lead, but it was still a great insight into the character.  Got a little worried that it was going end up being that all of this was over a lost love, but I'm glad the twist ended up happen.  The actress playing Eliza was great though.  And then Jennifer hoodwinking Jones and Deacon into letting her go.  I love that Deacon wasn't even mad about it.

And then shit hits the fan in Episode 10.  Basically, Athan was an elaborate fake-out, and Olivia is the true Witness that is going to be the cause of everything.  Should have known they were setting her up as the ultimate baddie.  Even took out The Pallid Man and Athan, after he had a brief heroic moment of helping out the heroes.  At least Cassie and Cole got out with a scratch, and I doubt Jones will die, although I guess it isn't a season of 12 Monkeys if Jones doesn't get wounded near the end.  That said, I'm pretty sure Olivia capped poor Dr. Alder during her escape.  It looked like Dr. Lansky was able to get out of the way, but I'm guessing Alder is a goner.

Yeah, I have a feeling that Cole's mother is going to end up being someone we already know, and it will involve time traveling.  I worry it would be Olivia, but I could so see it being Jennifer for hilarity (and kind of creepy) purposes.

Overall, binging this show had its ups and downs.  There is a lot I'm probably forgetting and might need to rewatch, but I did think they did a good job with the three nights, by having each group have a solid beginning, middle, and end.  Then again, I'm just happy the show got this and a final season to wrap it up, since it probably isn't wowing anyone in the ratings department.  This show can be a real mind trip, but I'm loving it.  I hope they finish strong next year.

[Hanahope]

I think Coles mother is the blonde lady who didn't have a mask on at the ball, who purposely looked at cole as he ran by and the camera lingered on her.  I saw her again in some later scenes too,  in different times, when cole was around.  She's got her own time travel device I bet.

btw nice of them to come up with that device since it makes it easy for people to travel without the big machine that's about to be destroyed.

I loved the twist with Olivia being the real witness.  Well played show. 

I wondered why the one guardian couldn't go back in time to warn the crew about Cole & cos coming to the mansion.  

[coppersin]

Rewatching to procrastinate on work. Thanks for an excuse, Syfy!

Ep1: I'm referring to future!Cassie's streaky hair has her Britta hair. "Life got dark," indeed.

Ep4: Ramse's death was well done, emotional without being melodramatic. Not surprised he told Cole not to undo it, I think the years of time travel drama and Sam's death wore him out. He was just done with it all. Cole sounded so young saying "brother" at the end, and you could tell that he was mourning Ramse and the news that his kid was the Witness. No wonder he needed to see Cassie after that.

I just noticed that young Cole and young Athan are played by the same actor. Nice detail.

[coppersin]

Noticed some things during my rewatch:

Ep6:
-The mine explosion in Hope Valley was giving me Silent Hill vibes, with the sirens and ash.
-The dead lady that Jennifer finally faced:

Spoiler

was that Eliza? She's wearing the right mask and her throat was slit, though Athan changed her death. Also, this chick's skin looked... flaky? I couldn't tell if she was decomposing or maybe frozen?

Ep7:
-Jones had a time travel breakthrough after a "hallucination." No way that's insignificant. So, the Witness, or one of the good guys?

[coppersin]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

That said, I'm pretty sure Olivia capped poor Dr. Alder during her escape.  It looked like Dr. Lansky was able to get out of the way, but I'm guessing Alder is a goner.

I had to rewind this part to check because I originally thought/hoped that it was just a random tech but yes, Adler got shot. Maybe he'd recover under normal circumstances but they're about to go on the run from Titan and I don't see him surviving that. Lasky got away. I kept waiting for Whitley to save them but that was a no-go. I know Demore Barnes stays busy but there had better be a reason he wasn't around when Olivia is still their "guest" and Jones & Co. are going on such a dangerous mission. Maybe he's downstairs working on Charon (a.k.a. probably a tunnel out of the facility) since they didn't know what kind of deadline they had.

6 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I think Coles mother is the blonde lady who didn't have a mask on at the ball, who purposely looked at cole as he ran by and the camera lingered on her.  I saw her again in some later scenes too,  in different times, when cole was around.  She's got her own time travel device I bet.

I'm pretty sure that woman is Constance, from the painting that hid the Word of the Witness. If she's the reason the Word went missing for three decades, maybe she's also working against Olivia. That would certainly increase the chances of her being Cole's mother. Either way, I'm certain we'll see her again. (It would be kinda funny if she is Cassie's mother-in-law, considering the face Cassie made when she saw the painting in ep5.)

[Triskan]

Now that I come to think of it, I'm bummed we didnt get to see Athan and Katarina interract more...

SyFY released this deleted scene from episode 9 and even though I understand why it ended up on the cutting floor, I'm sad for it ! Two characters who deserve more scenes together ! 

[Hanahope]

3 hours ago, coppersin said:

I'm pretty sure that woman is Constance, from the painting that hid the Word of the Witness. If she's the reason the Word went missing for three decades, maybe she's also working against Olivia. That would certainly increase the chances of her being Cole's mother. Either way, I'm certain we'll see her again. (It would be kinda funny if she is Cassie's mother-in-law, considering the face Cassie made when she saw the painting in ep5.)

Oh you're right.  I didn't get that at first.  

Oh, that's a pretty cool deleted scene, when you think about it.

[Hanahope]

On 5/30/2017 at 5:01 AM, coppersin said:

-The dead lady that Jennifer finally faced:

Yes, I believe it was.

I have to wonder, how did Athan splinter back 600 times to try and save Eliza and not cause a paradox?  He must have seen himself a lot.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Hanahope

[Thriftykins]

That's gotta be a real mind-screw for a woman, to give birth to a baby boy, then a month or two later, meet his as a grown man.

[bethy]

One thing that didn't hit me the first time I watched was that Cole is the one who gave Athan his name. AftDr Cole lowered the gun and knelt down next to the boy, he said, "You're Athan. Your name is Athan." Cassie chose their son's name, and Cole gave it to him. I wonder how powerful that was for Athan, going forward, to have a name given to him by his father.

Spoiler

I can imagine the conversation later with him telling Sebastian what his name was and then Sebastian honoring that choice and calling him Athan.

I kind of love what that says about all those characters. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S3.E4 scene: Bread & Butter (baking puns galore!)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The most touching moment in this episode was not Athan falling in love with Eliza or trying to save her 607 times. It was Deacon telling Jones that the madness had to stop after Jennifer bashed her head into the floor. When he said that he'd already killed Jennifer once and he wasn't going to let her or Jones kill her a second time, my cold black heart thumped. My only regret with granting Jennifer's wish to be sent back to 2016 is that I really liked Deacon and Jennifer's friendship. And now he is all alone with Jones without any allies.

I also loved the brief scene with the three Jennifers. I know it's expensive and time-consuming to shoot scenes like that (see also: Orphan Black) but it was a good use of having multiple Jennifers.

To be honest, I wasn't super interested in Athan's back story. His girlfriend died which is sad but lots of people experience loss without trying to destroy time so he's not getting a whole lot of sympathy from me in his justification to finally turn into the person he always said that he never wanted to be. Besides, she told him not to mess with time so if he succeeds, do you think she's really going to high five him? He's going to spend eternity with Eliza telling him that he specifically did the exact opposite of what she asked him to do. Not the best way to win back your girl.

[madam magpie]

I've been rewatching from the beginning, and I have to say...Athan gets no sympathy from me at all if we believe he's really the one manipulating time. He's doing horrible things. However, I'm wondering if the Witness we watched throughout the show who's screwing with the characters, etc. is actually Olivia. If she's the true Witness (that's what Athan says at the end, right?), does that mean she was the one in Cassie's hallucinations, the one trying to destroy time, the one who imprisoned Cassie, and so on? If so, then I do feel bad for Athan because his whole life was basically just another game Olivia was playing. 

[coppersin]

3 hours ago, madam magpie said:

If she's the true Witness (that's what Athan says at the end, right?), does that mean she was the one in Cassie's hallucinations, the one trying to destroy time, the one who imprisoned Cassie, and so on? If so, then I do feel bad for Athan because his whole life was basically just another game Olivia was playing. 

Yep, she's supposed to be the Witness. When she saw her unmasked self in the house, future!Olivia's face was glowing red, which I think confirms it. It'll be interesting to see if we see her Becoming, or if they'll try to stop her before she fulfills her destiny. And I agree, poor Athan: a lousy childhood, a lonely life, and a miserable "future" always looming.

For a long while I had a theory that the entire show took place in the middle of an endless domino effect of timelines. Time travel is discovered and people keep trying to "fix" problems only to make them worse. Eventually they go way back and discover patient zero and we get a plague, and then the 12 Monkeys taking advantage of said plague, etc., and the problems keep building themselves up into something worse in the newest timeline. I had thought that originally Athan or someone else was the Witness, but in this timeline Olivia gets pissed and starts a whole new chain reaction so she becomes the Witness. But we've got so much to cover in the final season as it is, I'm guessing we're just going with full-on evil Olivia for the entire season.

[madam magpie]

So Athan himself never actually was the Witness? Even though he was the one who wanted to fracture time to reunite with Liza, right? And he did wear the creepy mask at one point (didn't he?) and he was used as a child for his visions. But all the evil Witness-y things we've seen were all Olivia? So basically Cassie/Cole were right to try to save their kid, and Jones/Deacon/Hannah just continued to make things worse? 

Edited June 2, 2017 by madam magpie

[CrystalMoon]

madam magpie, That's how I interpreted it. Athan was just a Primary like Jennifer who had visions, but he never fulfilled any of the horrible things because he hadn't gone to Titan yet. And then when he gets to Titan we find out Olivia is the one who becomes the Witness and does all those terrible things.

I really liked Deacon helping Jennifer in this ep, and I agree that it was a touching moment when he decided to send her wherever she wanted to go. I rewatched this ep yesterday and caught something. After Deacon helps Jennifer sit in the splinter chair (and she's mumbling incoherently the whole time) he mumbled, "Like a fox." I took that to mean that he figures Jennifer was acting crazy just so someone would take pity on her and send her back to her original time. Which means Deacon was okay with her fooling Jones and everyone else. 

Did anyone else interpret it that way?

[Doyounot]

37 minutes ago, CrystalMoon said:

I really liked Deacon helping Jennifer in this ep, and I agree that it was a touching moment when he decided to send her wherever she wanted to go. I rewatched this ep yesterday and caught something. After Deacon helps Jennifer sit in the splinter chair (and she's mumbling incoherently the whole time) he mumbled, "Like a fox." I took that to mean that he figures Jennifer was acting crazy just so someone would take pity on her and send her back to her original time. Which means Deacon was okay with her fooling Jones and everyone else. 

Did anyone else interpret it that way?

I thought he didnt know until the wink but then he loved it when he realized what she was doing! And she was in the process of splintering so it was too late to do anything about it (if in the off chance he wanted to, also something i feel like he would admire).

[bethy]

I caught Jennifer's wink on rewatch. When Deacon saw it, that's when he said, "Like a fox." So cute!

[madam magpie]

12 minutes ago, bethy said:

I caught Jennifer's wink on rewatch. When Deacon saw it, that's when he said, "Like a fox." So cute!

I don't usually like Deacon, but I liked that a lot!

[CrystalMoon]

She winked? I didn't catch it either time I watched it. I just thought Deacon figured her out. It makes more sense now, though. I'll have to rewatch that scene.

[madam magpie]

On rewatch, I still can't believe Jones et al decided to trust Olivia over Cassie/Cole/Jennifer. I absolutely believe Deacon and Jones would turn on those three, but I'm not sure I buy that they'd bring Olivia into the fold.

Knowing Athan isn't the Witness makes his story extraordinarily tragic. He's stolen from parents who love him, raised by a cult, manipulated into doing awful things, tortured with visions he doesn't understand, stuck alone in the past, etc. I hope we learn more about him next season. Since no one is ever really dead on this show, I expect him (and Ramse) to show up for the end.

I'm guessing this show will end like Fringe with Cassie/Cole resetting time, reuniting with their son so they can raise him themselves, and someone like Jones or Deacon making the end sacrifice for humanity. Cassie/Cole/Athan will move to the Florida Keys, right?

Edited June 4, 2017 by madam magpie

[CaptainE]

Cole said at the end that " they are coming for us," or something similar.   How does he know this?   Olivia can just bop titan around as she wishes now, and be on the defensive.  And if she got to where she is by manipulating time/events, why does she not remember anything of it, or does she still have yet to go 'back' and start all of the machinations?

 

Also, who stuck the coordinates for titan to the tree?

 

It was a good season, but too darkly shot.  I guess that hides poor choreography and lacking sfx better though.

[coppersin]

14 minutes ago, CaptainE said:

Cole said at the end that " they are coming for us," or something similar.   How does he know this?   Olivia can just bop titan around as she wishes now, and be on the defensive.  And if she got to where she is by manipulating time/events, why does she not remember anything of it, or does she still have yet to go 'back' and start all of the machinations?

Unless I'm forgetting something, that's probably just guesswork on his part. They just shot up Titan and turned their supposed savior against them, and they know that the facility was going to be levelled within a year so Cole & Co. probably figured this was the cause. Olivia doesn't remember anything because her past was affected by her future self. The joys of time travel!

17 minutes ago, CaptainE said:

Also, who stuck the coordinates for titan to the tree?

It was Mallick.

[CaptainE]

Thanks coppersin , great link.   I may have to rewatch.  A lot.