The Brave - General Discussion

[Irishmaple]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

 

And I am also lost with regards to the "stunning realisation".  Say what?  Something to do with beach bomb but I didn't follow the rest of it.  Can someone who is more attuned please decipher?

Anne Heche was able to tie the bombing on the beach to the international arms dealer from the Mexico episode. His girlfriend colluded with a Mexican intelligence operative and the team to plant a bug on him. Ops just learned, via that bug, that he supplied weapons to the people responsible for the Turkey incident. Thereby neatly wrapping two separate cases in a nice bow. Mid season finale, I’m guessing.

[kassygreene]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

I once lost a model aircraft in a field of grass.  This is it:

Four feet across and brightly coloured, as you see.

The grass was only 12 to 18 inches tall, but it took me ages to find it, and when I finally did, I could see from the tracks in the grass that I'd already walked right past it three times,  within two feet.  So I can believe that camouflaged men could remain hidden in the field as searchers passed within inches. 

In this particular case, it seems strange that they would be wearing camo and still carry twinkly watches to spoil the effect.  It also seems strange that they would be wriggling around, drawing weapons, and just moving at all, with the enemy so close.  It is movement that will attract the eye, and give you away to the enemy.

But this show doesn't seem to make too much effort to avoid the improbable.

I remember while watching them paint each other's faces that Amir had an exposed watch face.  I do call BS on that, because Television has taught me that Special Forces use Special Watches, that are silent, non-reflective, and can have covers...  No way anyone in an elite force would let that pass.  They didn't need a glint off a watch to imperil the group.  In fact I missed the glint, and thought it was a standard (pardon my moment of non-PC) injun country thing.  (shrug, I'm old enough to have watched Daniel Boone)  I kind of loved the fact that both sides realized it was a kill box.

The episode did make great use of some gorgeous New Mexico scenery.  I wound up fact-checking and wow, there are varieties of aspen in China.

Edited November 15, 2017 by kassygreene

[jhlipton]

On 11/14/2017 at 2:07 PM, Netfoot said:

Prop departments notoriously use really rubbishy, cheap knives as props.  

This seems like a very reasonable place to saver money.  Yes, knife experts (Hi, @Netfoot!) can spot that they're trash, but 90% of the audience isn't going to notice.

On 11/14/2017 at 9:07 PM, blackwing said:

I found it particularly unbelievable that the Russians would walk literally almost on top of the team in the tall grass and not even see them.

There was a show where "ordinary people" were put through a stripped-down version of the Special Forces program.  One of their tasks was to build a blind that the Pros couldn't spot.  The Pros knew that the blinds were there, and pretty much where they were, but one or two of the Contestants weren't spotted.

[jhlipton]

On 11/14/2017 at 4:10 AM, koalathebear said:

Is it salvageable - could they retcon it away somehow??

@Raja could probably say more in depth, but if Dalton had been a First Sergeant at some point who was promoted to Captain (a "Mustang"), his team might still call him "Top".  If the hadn't given him a first name, they could have used the gimmick from the old show T.H.E. Cat (T.H.E. stood for Thomas Hewitt Edward) and him be Thomas Owell Peter Dalton --> T.O.P.!

[Netfoot]

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

This seems like a very reasonable place to saver money.  Yes, knife experts (Hi, @Netfoot!) can spot that they're trash, but 90% of the audience isn't going to notice.

On 11/15/2017 at 1:07 AM, blackwing said:

Yes, I'm sure they do it to save money.  But they don't seem to mind spending goodness knows how much to get all the other weapons and  accoutrement correct, or at least believable, but buy a rubbishy knife that looks like it's made from tinfoil and not save more than a dollar or two, if that.  

(And I'm not an expert by any means.  I have a small collection of mostly inexpensive knives.  Thus, I know that the same $25 that buys a piece of junk that won't peel a banana, can buy a very serviceable blade instead.)

[Raja]

9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

@Raja could probably say more in depth, but if Dalton had been a First Sergeant at some point who was promoted to Captain (a "Mustang"), his team might still call him "Top".  If the hadn't given him a first name, they could have used the gimmick from the old show T.H.E. Cat (T.H.E. stood for Thomas Hewitt Edward) and him be Thomas Owell Peter Dalton --> T.O.P.!

Top would be something dropped with the commission. As to a preexisting nickname it would have been dropped upon enlisting in basic training, and only used sarcastically for a soldier.

Given the bio from the Wikipedia entry a team Sergeant from an ODA  (A-Team) works best for the Top honorific. However battlefield commission and older Mustang, which a Master Sergeant would be are a pre Korean War thing. The progression would be to Warrant Officer and second in command of an ODA. But again Top would disappear with his warrant.

Off topic the Wikipedia article list both Dalton and McG as Delta Force. It seems as if character qualifications biographies are feeling inflation. No longer is Ranger SEAL good enough, now everyone was so called Tier 1. But being excluded by law Jazz could not be special forces. I suppose soon we will have the first female Ranger SEAL USMC School of Infantry veteran show up as a cop or spy in a series 

[dargosmydaddy]

Nice article on Hadi Tabbal (Amir). Someone wondered in one of the episode threads if Tabbal was actually fluent in French, Arabic, Spanish, etc., since he sounds so authentic, and it sounds like the answer is yes! (Anyhow, it says he's fluent in five languages, though it doesn't say which ones.)

https://nypost.com/2017/11/15/the-brave-star-leading-the-charge-against-muslim-stereotypes-on-tv/

[Raja]

On 11/14/2017 at 8:43 AM, Irishmaple said:

I felt bad for the Mongolian nomads. The raid by the Russian special forces did some damage, and then they were held at gunpoint by Americans. Why wouldn’t the Russians just kill everyone though? It seemed shortsighted to leave survivors with knowledge of the drone and the raid. Even in the middle of nowhere people talk.

I like that the show is circling back to the bombing in Turkey and to Boothe. For all the running around and shooting in this episode, I found it dull.

 

On 11/15/2017 at 5:11 AM, Netfoot said:

I once lost a model aircraft in a field of grass.  This is it:

Four feet across and brightly coloured, as you see.

The grass was only 12 to 18 inches tall, but it took me ages to find it, and when I finally did, I could see from the tracks in the grass that I'd already walked right past it three times,  within two feet.  So I can believe that camouflaged men could remain hidden in the field as searchers passed within inches. 

In this particular case, it seems strange that they would be wearing camo and still carry twinkly watches to spoil the effect.  It also seems strange that they would be wriggling around, drawing weapons, and just moving at all, with the enemy so close.  It is movement that will attract the eye, and give you away to the enemy.

But this show doesn't seem to make too much effort to avoid the improbable.

Speaking of the watch and covert actions over the borders the Spetsnaz are going in wearing unit patches. Is it supposed to be we are bad MFs and if you want to do anything about Mongolia, or China, you know where to find us? So we know Preach was a SEAL. McG and Dalton Special Forces and or Delta Force and Jaz a soldier of some sort before being recruited. That leaves us Amir as a spy who misses field craft and was not checked by his buddy before the HALO drop.

 

The entire concept of an arch nemesis is just goofy given the premise of the show. But I guess all shows need a seasonal big bad since Buffy.

[Raja]

As to the Top retcon. They already seemed to do step one, Stop digging a deeper hole. He is just "Dalton", not "Captain Dalton". Which is strange since they are just "command" and he should have a code name no matter how secure they think their communications are. If at some time in the future he needs to be shown in uniform or have a rank referenced  just show him wearing Master Sergeant stripes instead of Captain's bars

[koalathebear]

It's not looking good.  Although the show hasn't been cancelled (season 2 might still potentially happen), NBC has decided to keep season 1 at 13 episodes only and not order another 9:

http://popculture.com/tv-shows/2017/11/16/the-brave-nbc-cancelled-13-episodes/

It's just so disappointing because Seal Team is so crappy by comparison and The Brave despite having some of the usual tropes actually feels quite different/new in some ways and I do enjoy that it's a truly ensemble cast.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, koalathebear said:

It's not looking good.  Although the show hasn't been cancelled (season 2 might still potentially happen), NBC has decided to keep season 1 at 13 episodes only and not order another 9:

http://popculture.com/tv-shows/2017/11/16/the-brave-nbc-cancelled-13-episodes/

It's just so disappointing because Seal Team is so crappy by comparison and The Brave despite having some of the usual tropes actually feels quite different/new in some ways and I do enjoy that it's a truly ensemble cast.

It does annoy me more that SEAL Team got picked up for a full season while The Brave hasn't. I do think The Brave's ratings aren't as strong as they'd like because they're up against a more popular freshman show, The Good Doctor. I tend to watch The Brave online anyway. While SEAL Team is on a night where I don't think it has any competition. 

[Raja]

There is a chance that NBC will treat The Brave like it does Shades of Blue as networks are dropping the traditional  22 episode season. Or perhaps the retooling that Taken is under going, however looking at the plans for Taken they took the heart out of the show and one of Bryan's team went over to SEAL Team

[kassygreene]

I think The Brave is fortunate to be at NBC.  CBS does have a formula which Seal Team fits and this show does not; ABC would have promoted it before the premiere and then yanked it from the schedule halfway through the broadcast of the second episode; FOX would have added at least one comic book graphics novel character; and The CW would have reduced the age of every character by five years and every actor by ten.

The shorter season approach seems to be working for NBC, so as long as they don't lobotomize it (as seems to have happened to Taken), I remain modestly hopeful.

Edited November 19, 2017 by kassygreene
commas

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, kassygreene said:

FOX would have added at least one comic book graphics novel character;

A comic book is a comic book.  There is no reason to pretend it is otherwise.

[koalathebear]

Oh no ... that cliff hanger.  Of course they'll rescue her, but I'm going to be in agony until the next episode.

Also...

"Top? But you're an officer now."

"Yeah.  What can I say?  Name stuck."

Heh heh.

[solea]

That was tense and exciting. I was fully prepared to see Jaz fly through that window because she would’ve done it.

Campbell having a mini meltdown … could’ve done without it. 

Jaz and Amir are my favorite characters. 

[mccartygirl]

3 hours ago, solea said:

Jaz and Amir are my favorite characters. 

Amir is totally my favorite! I am loving this show! Way better than Seal Team with David Boreanz. 

All I could thing was the guy arresting Jaz was someone who in the end will help them and let her go when they get outside. 

[papillon rouge]

I wa so tense watching this episode and I can’t believe they left us there! Are there any more episodes this year?

[Raja]

29 minutes ago, papillon rouge said:

I wa so tense watching this episode and I can’t believe they left us there! Are there any more episodes this year?

The promo said January for the remaining episodes 

[threebluestars]

Rumour has it the show will only have 13 episodes for the season, so that means only 4 more next year. Boo.

[rove4]

Bummed to hear that.  I like this show so much better than Seal Team.  The unit here are so much more personable than the ST guys.

[Ariah]

That was to me the best episode of the season. And that cliffhanger ending...

The tension was palpable, which is rare for a regular tv production - one usually knows how an episode would play out on a scripted show. We got used to the team being successful and the fact that they botched the first attempt at assassination was a nice surprise. 

I guess Jaz missed for the first time on screen. Her shock was well done (good work, Natacha Karam!). The whole mission hung on her and she made a mistake. And then, suddenly, she became the last resort once more. 

They did drop a few anvils this episode: "What those animals would do to her," said Hossein. It was only natural that Jaz would end up captured. Which reminds me of that time Ziva was imprisoned on NCIS. NCIS, being a family-safe show as it was, glided over the obvious torments a woman captive had to endure. As much as I love the episode in which Ziva is rescued, I always knew there was a huge chunk of cringe-worthy story missing. Will The Brave go there? Hopefully, it won't have to. (I call it now - Dalton will 'improvise' and get himself detained in order to get to Jaz).

Other notes from the episode:

- Amir and McG being brothers... I'd buy that, but in my opinion Amir was not the one who lost the gene lottery...

- I loved the opening with the team on the airport and the subsequent teasing in the safe house. There's not a single person on the team i dislike and that's a novelty in ensemble shows.

- The final seconds of the episode, with Jaz counting down to her jump (and broken leg)? Surprisingly tense!

On the whole, Jan 1 can't come sooner. 

 

...But if they solve this cliffhanger the way they solved the 1.01 truck beach explosion, with the team chilling in Turkey and a different sniper joining ranks, I'll be really, really mad...

[Netfoot]

47 minutes ago, Ariah said:

I guess Jaz missed for the first time on screen. Her shock was well done (good work, Natacha Karam!). The whole mission hung on her and she made a mistake. And then, suddenly, she became the last resort once more. 

I think it's less that she made a mistake/missed the shot, and was shocked.  More that she deliberately pulled the shot at the last moment to save the innocent bystander, and was horrified at how close things had come to disaster.

52 minutes ago, Ariah said:

The final seconds of the episode, with Jaz counting down to her jump (and broken leg)? Surprisingly tense!

Tense indeed, but unfortunately the countdown to when she would be out did clearly telegraphed the fact that she wouldn't get out. 

[Ariah]

Some articles on the fall finale:
http://tvline.com/2017/11/20/the-brave-season-1-spoilers-dalton-jaz-love/

https://www.tvinsider.com/650849/the-brave-natacha-karam-interview-jaz-desperate-times-fall-finale/

http://ew.com/tv/2017/11/20/the-brave-natacha-karam-fall-finale-cliffhanger/

[Raja]

Jaz definitely pulled up. Nobody reacted to the crack of a bullet going by that a near miss would have produced 

[solea]

5 hours ago, Ariah said:

- Amir and McG being brothers... I'd buy that, but in my opinion Amir was not the one who lost the gene lottery...

 

Neither of them lost that lottery, but I do think that Amir is the cuter “brother”.

Too bad only 13 eps. Does anyone do full seasons anymore?

[Raja]

In a contest of brothers McG is taller, and thus the winner 

[weathered1]

I think it's a (somewhat) encouraging sign that the fall finale got a fair amount of media coverage - one would think that if the insider scuttlebutt is that the show is just about done, media outlets wouldn't have bothered to cover it. Plus, the ratings - though they could be better - have been holding pretty steady, and it seems like (at least to me) it's garnering more and more attention online each week. So. . . I'm going to be cautiously optimistic, too. 

Also, for what it's worth, I think 13 episode seasons might actually be good for a show like this - if they had to keep stretching out the stories for 22 or more episodes, the pacing and suspense could very well suffer. 

 

ETA: And Mike Vogel posted that he'll be doing press for the show during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Again, it's a small thing, but if the network had already decided it's done after the 13 episodes, I don't think this would be happening. So I think they've either decided to give it a renewal for another shorter season, or (more likely) they're going to increase its media presence and promotion and then see what the numbers look like for the last 4 episodes before the final decision is made.

Edited November 22, 2017 by weathered1

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Although height doesn't matter when you're horizontal in bed...

On another note, as a Persian, this episode did not impress me. Also her Farsi totally sounded like an American trying to speak Farsi by reading words off a page, even if she was supposed to be 'bad' at speaking it. 

Dalton can continue to wear glasses though, I dig that.

[Raja]

33 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

On another note, as a Persian, this episode did not impress me. Also her Farsi totally sounded like an American trying to speak Farsi by reading words off a page, even if she was supposed to be 'bad' at speaking it. 

Dalton can continue to wear glasses though, I dig that.

At the airport while Jaz and her "husband" were trying to infiltrate Iran? Real freaky situation "you married an infidel" 'hey Ugandan are you a Muslim?"

[koalathebear]

5 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

On another note, as a Persian, this episode did not impress me. Also her Farsi totally sounded like an American trying to speak Farsi by reading words off a page, even if she was supposed to be 'bad' at speaking it. 

Interesting given that the actress isn't American.  This is her normal accent: 

 

According to her bio, she is a Northern Irish/ French Lebanese actress based in London 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, koalathebear said:

Interesting given that the actress isn't American.  This is her normal accent: 

 

 

According to her bio, she is a Northern Irish/ French Lebanese actress based in London 

Later when meeting the terrorist mastermind she was playing a Lebanese, I don't know if she was an Arab or Persian at the airport?

[threebluestars]

I honestly had no idea she wasn't American, she's doing a great accent!

[dargosmydaddy]

On 11/21/2017 at 1:53 PM, Ariah said:

- Amir and McG being brothers... I'd buy that, but in my opinion Amir was not the one who lost the gene lottery...

Seconding (or thirding) this! I love Amir. 

Preach continues to be quietly awesome as well. I'm hoping we'll get a Preach-centric episode in the back four, since everyone else on the team has gotten a chance to be focused on.

[jhlipton]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:04 PM, koalathebear said:

"Top? But you're an officer now."

"Yeah.  What can I say?  Name stuck."

As retcons go... that was pretty clunky.  I doubt that anyone who objected to Dalton being called "Top" would be satisfied with that.

[koalathebear]

3 hours ago, jhlipton said:

As retcons go... that was pretty clunky.  I doubt that anyone who objected to Dalton being called "Top" would be satisfied with that.

What would have been an acceptable retcon?  I know Naval officers who used to be enlisted men so it's not outside the realms of possibility that someone who is an officer now, once was not?

[Raja]

3 hours ago, koalathebear said:

What would have been an acceptable retcon?  I know Naval officers who used to be enlisted men so it's not outside the realms of possibility that someone who is an officer now, once was not?

I put it in earlier Top has been established , Captain not so much as they are not in standard uniform. Make Captain go away. Top is not a nickname, like they are treating it. it is  an honor. 

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, koalathebear said:

What would have been an acceptable retcon?  I know Naval officers who used to be enlisted men so it's not outside the realms of possibility that someone who is an officer now, once was not?

What @Raja said.

[Netfoot]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Make Captain go away.

Now that they have alluded to it on the show, there is no way they can suddenly make his captaincy vanish.

[jhlipton]

10 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Now that they have alluded to it on the show, there is no way they can suddenly make his captaincy vanish.

Yeah, there really is no way to retcon "Top".  I suppose a tiny hand clap for trying, but not much of one, since the problem would be well known before they started.

[koalathebear]

I still really enjoyed the episode and the series, although I understand that others have their enjoyment impaired.  I can't wait until 1 Jan.

[Raja]

How about since  Special Forces serve as advisers for foreign military's as one of their primary missions, like in Niger in the most recent news, Master Sergeant Dalton in such a role as part of an ODA was recognized as a Captain by that foreign military. Thus the "Captain" was the nickname picked up by the political boss instead of Master Sergeant Dalton. Meanwhile treating the soldiers use informal honorific Top 

[calipiano81]

On 11/22/2017 at 11:21 AM, dargosmydaddy said:

Seconding (or thirding) this! I love Amir. 

Preach continues to be quietly awesome as well. I'm hoping we'll get a Preach-centric episode in the back four, since everyone else on the team has gotten a chance to be focused on.

The episode where they had to rescue the hostages and a diplomat's wife from the shopping mall was sort of Preach-centric. That was his turn to put himself at risk for the mission.

I have enjoyed these past 9 episodes so much. It is like a mini-movie for me each week. All the characters are great and so badass. I wish the ratings were better and I'm really going to miss the show when it ends.

[calipiano81]

Question...why did Jaz meet up with Amir in the stairwell only to split off again? I thought he was supposed to back her up and help get out?

[dargosmydaddy]

9 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

Question...why did Jaz meet up with Amir in the stairwell only to split off again? I thought he was supposed to back her up and help get out?

I think he was, but then the local guy who was being their eyes in the lobby said there was no way she was going to be able to come down the stairs/ make it out that way. I guess they figured it was better to strand one person than two and that's why Amir didn't leave the stairs with her?

9 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

The episode where they had to rescue the hostages and a diplomat's wife from the shopping mall was sort of Preach-centric. That was his turn to put himself at risk for the mission.

Well, yes, but "sort of" does describe it best. I feel like we learned more about Amir and McG in their episodes. Though come to think we haven't got a ton of background on Jaz, either, but she tends to talk more, at least. 

[koalathebear]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Well, yes, but "sort of" does describe it best. I feel like we learned more about Amir and McG in their episodes. Though come to think we haven't got a ton of background on Jaz, either, but she tends to talk more, at least. 

I agree.  She's had a lot of screen time in the 'now', but in terms of her background we know very little.  For instance, i can't tell if she doesn't like her family and mother because they were bad or because they were flaky/alternative.

 

In 1.05 Enhanced Protection there was this exchange:

Preach: How about you, Jaz? - You think of doing - the family thing?

Jaz: If I can get it in writing that it won't be anything like mine. 

Then in 1.07 It's All Personal there was this

Amir: So Has your mom ever made you a traditional breakfast before?

Jaz: My mom? Let's just say she wasn't a traditional anything.

Amir: Yeah, I can see that. 

*

So you can see her description isn't necessarily that her family was bad or abusive... her mum might have been a hippy or something and Jaz wasn't a fan.

Edited November 25, 2017 by koalathebear

[Pepper the Cat]

I think her head covering ( sorry can't think of the correct term) should have been double sided. One side black, the other side another cover, say red. She could have flipped it over and delayed detection as they would have been lookingformthe woman in black. 

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I think her head covering ( sorry can't think of the correct term) should have been double sided. One side black, the other side another cover, say red. She could have flipped it over and delayed detection as they would have been lookingformthe woman in black. 

Hijab. The Niqab covers most of the face sometimes with a screen to see out of effectively covering all of the face. Where as the burka is the total face and body shape  covering 

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I think her head covering ( sorry can't think of the correct term) should have been double sided. One side black, the other side another cover, say red. She could have flipped it over and delayed detection as they would have been lookingformthe woman in black. 

There wasn't supposed to be any problems with the assassination.  If she had come out of the room in red, the guards would have seized her immediately.  I suppose that once they were in one of the stairwells, she could have flipped her hajib, but they hadn't planned for that.

[betsyboo]

On 11/21/2017 at 11:09 PM, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Although height doesn't matter when you're horizontal in bed...

Dalton can continue to wear glasses though, I dig that.

Yes to both of these, including your love for Michael Vaughn. Swoon.

I thought it was interesting that Adam kept his glasses on even when in the car waiting/watching. I guess he needs to stay in character.

I am loving this little show - have been recording since the beginning and binged in 4-ep bursts. Love the team dynamic. I apologize for not going back to read y'all's thoughts on the first 9 eps, but my take thus far is:

• Jazz is in love with Adam, whether she knows it or not, and Adam knows but doesn't want to/can't do anything about it. 
• I find McG swoon worthy. All of them, actually. I am having a hard time getting past Noah's previous role on Quantico, but he's a little more confident here.
• Hannah is gorgeous and I have finally forgotten her character on Jane the Virgin. I like how she doesn't hide her scars, and that she's always unconsciously touching them when the team is in danger. 
• Anne Heche doesn't bother me nearly as much as I anticipated (which is why I was late to the party).
• I like that Dalton can make his decisions in the field and that he's *allowed* to. They trust him that he's on the ground and knows best. 
• This ep while they were backstopping Jazz, Noah was a little Chloe-esque, but without the attitude. I like!

And I concur that this cliffhanger had me on the edge of my seat!! I think I saw that it's back on January 1.

Edited November 27, 2017 by betsyboo
embarrassing typos.