S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

So if I do a rewatch of season 12, which is the appropriate thread to comment?

I would imagine the individual threads for specific episode discussion and the 'All Episodes Talk' for discussion on the overall plots and character development of the season :) 

[catrox14]

You know, I've been meaning to remark about this scene between Dean and Jody, but because we've been so caught up in the Crowley/Cas dying and the Dean and Sam monologues that I forgot.  And then this gifset showed up on Tumblr and I didn't really notice the hand grab that Dean does here with Jody. 

This is a painfully beautiful moment when Brainwashed!Mary is being cruel to Dean. It's one of those short, but powerful moments in which Jensen's acting gives Dean SO MUCH internal life about what's going on in Dean's heart and mind than IMO the monologue.

It's like Dean's heart and soul are being further shredded by Mary, after her pushing him away for months and lying to him. IMO, Dean looks more broken here than in the dreamwalk scene.

How often is Dean shown with his hand over his mouth, hiding his face and trying to not say something he'll regret? Yes, Dean is in physical pain from his injured leg, but the pain on his face here, is not from that. It's emotional pain. He's broken and angry and confused. He's also trying to remember that she is not herself, but that shit still fucking hurts him to his core.

He's not hurt because Mary isn't meeting his standards of what being a mother means. He's broken because even knowing she is not in her right mind, she is being cruel, it wounds his inner child because "Mommy hates me". 

IMO when Jody goes up to comfort him, he grabs her arm to stop her, but then he relents and allows the moment of comfort and kindness and acknowledges it by squeezing her hand. 

So enjoy this punch in the feels.

 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure Dean was trying to stop her as much as he was just grabbing on to her for support.  I really liked that scene, and I love Jody's relationship with the boys.  Thankfully, Dabb didn't feel the need to kill her too.  As for Dean, I think he was just about done at that point.  Mary wasn't just emotionless toward him, she was cruel.  

Edited May 27, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure Dean was trying to stop her as much as he was just grabbing on to her for support

I meant that for an instant he wanted to stop her because he has kind of pushed away her comfort in the past, like in the Asa Fox episode. He said "I'm fine", and she made it clear she understood he really wasn't. So for me here, he had that same instant of  "No, I'm fine" but then he gave way and allowed it and grabbed her arm and squeezed her hand. 

[shang yiet]

Sam's speech - It was not as well-written as Dean's speech and more cobbled together like the writers did not spend too much time on it. It could have been more personal but half of it was about telling me things about the BMol which I know already. This may be why I, personally, felt the speech was quite long. 

However, I do like that Sam got to make a speech and I tried to read between the lines and reach what the writers were going for. Meaning that Sam was taking responsibility for his decision and stepping up to lead and take back control of the situation. And knowing in order to do that, he had to win the trust of the other hunters.

I was glad to see him regaining his confidence. It would have been easier to just let others fix his mistakes and never stick his neck out again but it wouldn't have been right. So I was pleased to see Sam acting like the leader I know he could be and has been before in many situations in the past. I disagree he is just a follower.

The show has hammered Sam's bad decisions down our throats but he's made the right call many times only we don't remember them because the writers don't make a big deal about that.

Quote

let Dean lead the raid

"So guys, I screwed up again but never mind, big brother Dean will once again clean up my mess so you all just follow him instead." No, no, no. Sam needed to be the leader of the raid storywise.

Dean's speech - Definitely the better speech and half of it was about Sam anyway so it kept my interest and didn't feel too long, ha ha! But it was also about Dean too so I certainly don't feel Dean was shortchanged in any way.

Now while some wanted Sam's St Crispian scene to be a co-scene with Dean, I wanted Dean's speech scene to be a co-scene with Sam.

This is the second time Dean got to speak on behalf of Sam. I wish Sam had been in that scene to see Mary cooing over him so he knows better all the mothering he missed out on. Then Dean can have his speech be all about Dean's pain and Sam can have his speech be all about Sam's pain. 

Quote

How about Sam talking about how it affected not only him but how it affected Dean?

How about Sam being allowed to talk in the first place to Mary? He's always conveniently in another room when the emo is being handed out. We saw this in the later Mary forgiveness scene when Sam is once again reduced to one line and insta-forgiveness while Dean got a long speech about his anger.

Quote

The pattern of Sam not confronting his enemies, not holding a grudge ad even forgiving them is peculiar.

I wished Sam had taken a blowtorch to Lady Toni. 

Also, all this talk about 'the world you were never born' referring just to Sam because Cas was looking at him? What about when Mary used 'you' twice to Dean in her forgiveness scene'? Was she referring only to Dean as in 'leaving you/ being here with you' because she didn't add 'and Sam'?

Edited May 27, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I was glad to see him regaining his confidence. It would have been easier to just let others fix his mistakes and never stick his neck out again but it wouldn't have been right. So I was pleased to see Sam acting like the leader I know he could be and has been before in many situations in the past. I disagree he is just a follower

I tend to be less Sam focused but I agree with you that I never thought Sam was just a follower which might be why this whole speech with him saying "I want you to follow me" felt rather contrived. He might have been leading a questionable mission or went about it in sketchy ways but he seemed to never lack confidence in leading, iMO. I'm curious when you thought he lost his confidence.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Also, all this talk about 'the world you were never born' referring just to Sam because Cas was looking at him? What about when Mary used 'you' twice to Dean in her forgiveness scene'? Was she referring only to Dean as in 'leaving you/ being here with you' because she didn't add 'and Sam'?

 

If you're referring to the final scene before Sam comes back, from the dialogue and from the way it was acted,  IMO, it was a moment specifically between Mary and Dean about Mary and Dean following up on their pretty intense interactions. I think if it was meant in full to be that Mary was talking to Dean about Dean and Sam, there would not have been the beat at the end where Mary mentions Sam's name specifically, unless it was just for dramatic effect but I don't think it was.

That's just how I took it.

Quote

[ Gun clatters ] [ Beeping ] [ Explosion ] [ Door opens ] [ Pills rattle ]

Dean : Found some expired prescription painkillers, so [ Chuckles ] lucky me.

Mom, you don't have to do that. It's not your job. [ Pills rattle ]

Mary: This All of this is because of me. :

Dean: It'll be okay.

Mary: It's not okay. [ Inhales, exhales deeply ] Since I've been back, I know I've been distant. Cold, even. Leaving you, working with them I was trying to make things right. Just from a distance, because being here with you was too hard. Seeing what I'd done to you and to Sam, 

Dean: Mom, what you did, the deal everything that's happened since has made us who we are. And who we are? We kick ass. We save the world.

Mary: And Sam? I'm scared. What What if he can't forgive me?

Sam: Mom. You don't have to be scared of me.

Dean: Glad you're back, man. Read more:

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s12e22

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

You know, I've been meaning to remark about this scene between Dean and Jody, but because we've been so caught up in the Crowley/Cas dying and the Dean and Sam monologues that I forgot.  And then this gifset showed up on Tumblr and I didn't really notice the hand grab that Dean does here with Jody. 

This is a painfully beautiful moment when Brainwashed!Mary is being cruel to Dean. It's one of those short, but powerful moments in which Jensen's acting gives Dean SO MUCH internal life about what's going on in Dean's heart and mind than IMO the monologue.

It's like Dean's heart and soul are being further shredded by Mary, after her pushing him away for months and lying to him. IMO, Dean looks more broken here than in the dreamwalk scene.

How often is Dean shown with his hand over his mouth, hiding his face and trying to not say something he'll regret? Yes, Dean is in physical pain from his injured leg, but the pain on his face here, is not from that. It's emotional pain. He's broken and angry and confused. He's also trying to remember that she is not herself, but that shit still fucking hurts him to his core.

He's not hurt because Mary isn't meeting his standards of what being a mother means. He's broken because even knowing she is not in her right mind, she is being cruel, it wounds his inner child because "Mommy hates me". 

IMO when Jody goes up to comfort him, he grabs her arm to stop her, but then he relents and allows the moment of comfort and kindness and acknowledges it by squeezing her hand. 

So enjoy this punch in the feels.

 

I loved everything about this scene.  It's just as good as the Mary one (if not better).  I love how Jody just knows he needs the support.  So much is communicated even without a single word.

Dean just looks so lost and broken from a distance, and the way the scene is filmed he looks so small.   Then when we see a close up of his face there is so many emotions in that expression,  anger, hurt, fear, love.  I even say hate, in hindsight.  He looks like he wants to both hug and kill Mary at the same time.

This is why I would love an episode where Dean is cursed and cant' speak because Jensen is so good with the non verbal acting.

Edited May 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wynne88]

I agree about Jensen's acting. That said, that looks like a weird and awkward place for Jody to be touching him to offer comfort.  I could see her touching his shoulder or forearm, but that's not where it looks like her hand goes.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I agree about Jensen's acting. That said, that looks like a weird and awkward place for Jody to be touching him to offer comfort.  I could see her touching his shoulder or forearm, but that's not where it looks like her hand goes.

I thought she was trying to touch his chest where is heart would be.

ETA: Actually, I take that back. I think she was touching his arm and hand that he's using to cover his mouth. :(

Edited May 28, 2017 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: Actually, I take that back. I think she was touching his arm and hand that he's using to cover his mouth. :(

Yep, looking closer, I think you're right.

[Idahoforspn]

Hmmm..just sort of rewatched 22. Only watched what I liked: Grenade launcher, Dean/Jody, Dean Mary, Dean/Ketch fight. Didn't take very long.

[mertensia]

8 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Sam's speech - It was not as well-written as Dean's speech and more cobbled together like the writers did not spend too much time on it. It could have been more personal but half of it was about telling me things about the BMol which I know already. This may be why I, personally, felt the speech was quite long. 

 

This is a good point: we the audience know the BMoL are bad. That Sam should have thought twice before signing up. That the BMoL want all American hunters dead. So it's boring to hear again.

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought she was trying to touch his chest where is heart would be.

ETA: Actually, I take that back. I think she was touching his arm and hand that he's using to cover his mouth. :(

It's almost like she just went for a reassuring pat and he kind of grabbed on like a lifeline. 

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It's almost like she just went for a reassuring pat and he kind of grabbed on like a lifeline.

It was ad libbed by Jensen, I'm sure of it.  It's little touches like this that are the heart and soul of Supernatural and what warms audiences and draws us in.  I hope the writers don't screw up the Jody character, they've done a number on so many others.  

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It was ad libbed by Jensen, I'm sure of it.  It's little touches like this that are the heart and soul of Supernatural and what warms audiences and draws us in.  

Couldn't agree with you more. +a zillion

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ihope the writers don't screw up the Jody character, they've done a number on so many others.  

I expect them to unfortunately. However, I keep hoping that after the disasters this year either Dabb will learn or Pedowitz will step in. I don't think there is hope for Singer. He has the option of just retiring.

[MysteryGuest]

16 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Sam's speech - It was not as well-written as Dean's speech and more cobbled together like the writers did not spend too much time on it. It could have been more personal but half of it was about telling me things about the BMol which I know already. This may be why I, personally, felt the speech was quite long. 

This was the problem I had with the Sam's speech.  I had no issue with him taking responsibility and asking the other hunters to trust him again and help him take out the BMOL.  That was all great.  But the speech itself annoyed me.  When Sam started listing all of the bad things the BMOL did, and just how much differently American Hunters do their jobs, it was like, duh...the fans have known this all season!  How could it have taken you so long to figure it out!  I know they were going for this emotional, rallying speech, but all I kept thinking was that the writers should never have put Sam in that position to begin with.  He's always known how different they were from the BMOL.  The Sam we know wouldn't have fallen for their shit after that fiasco he was witness to.  Not to mention the torture and the multiple red flags we saw all season that Sam and Dean would never have missed.  When you have to dumb your characters down so much to make your storyline work, you need another storyline.

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

When Sam started listing all of the bad things the BMOL did, and just how much differently American Hunters do their jobs, it was like, duh...the fans have known this all season!  How could it have taken you so long to figure it out!

I was more like, DUH! those hunters already know that, that's why they had the good sense to stay clear of them!

So, yeah, I thought it was great Sam took responsibility, but didn't think it was so great Sam went on about shit that was already known. I literally was uttering, "Stop talking, Sam!"

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

How could it have taken you so long to figure it out!  I know they were going for this emotional, rallying speech, but all I kept thinking was that the writers should never have put Sam in that position to begin with.  He's always known how different they were from the BMOL.  The Sam we know wouldn't have fallen for their shit after that fiasco he was witness to.  Not to mention the torture and the multiple red flags we saw all season that Sam and Dean would never have missed.  When you have to dumb your characters down so much to make your storyline work, you need another storyline.

You are more forgiving of the writers' motivations than I am. I don't think giving Sam an emotional rallying speech was the only point. For me having Sam repeating all that stuff was to show Sam knew he was "wrong." Which I suppose is supposed to be a good thing that Sam learned that lesson, but at the same time also 1) appears to be purposefully highlighting "Sam was wrong" and 2) also highlights - as you point out - that Sam shouldn't have fallen for the BMoL's crap in the first place.

So basically for me, that speech was as much about dumbing Sam down in the first place and then making him apologize for it - in detail - as it was giving Sam some rallying moment. I'm just hoping eventually the writers will just let Sam actually be smart again rather than dumbing him down and making him be "wrong" * most of the time. Because I entirely agree with you that dumbing down characters to forward the storyline needs to go away.

* I put "wrong" in quotes, because  generally in my opinion, the narrative highlights the "wrong" and attributes it to Sam more than the actual "wrongness" deserves to be. But I realize that's just my opinion on that one.

[Idahoforspn]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

This was the problem I had with the Sam's speech.  I had no issue with him taking responsibility and asking the other hunters to trust him again and help him take out the BMOL.  That was all great.  But the speech itself annoyed me.  When Sam started listing all of the bad things the BMOL did, and just how much differently American Hunters do their jobs, it was like, duh...the fans have known this all season!  How could it have taken you so long to figure it out!  I know they were going for this emotional, rallying speech, but all I kept thinking was that the writers should never have put Sam in that position to begin with.  He's always known how different they were from the BMOL.  The Sam we know wouldn't have fallen for their shit after that fiasco he was witness to.  Not to mention the torture and the multiple red flags we saw all season that Sam and Dean would never have missed.  When you have to dumb your characters down so much to make your storyline work, you need another storyline.

I have to laugh because I'm sure both Berens and Dabb couldn't wait for Sam to deliver what they thought would be the climax of the episode (including the raid on the BMoL). Instead, a lot of Sam fans are like "WHAT?" And Jensen's delivery (not necessarily content) of the Mary dream speech seemed to be the biggest hit ( judging by social media) and Berens/ Dabb were left sitting there wondering what in the heck happened. Don't these stupid fans understand anything. Of course, this is just how I see it and I kind of need a laugh with all the behind the scenes drama right now

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And Jensen's delivery (not necessarily content) of the Mary dream speech

For me, the content was much better thought out for Dean's scene. I agree with @shang yiet that Sam's seemed more cobbled together and expository (when exposition wasn't needed really) in comparison.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, the content was much better thought out for Dean's scene. I agree with @shang yiet that Sam's seemed more cobbled together and expository (when exposition wasn't needed really) in comparison.

I only put that because there was some discussion on the content (to much how Mary's deal affected Sam instead of Dean) but it was a much better written speech for sure.

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I only put that because there was some discussion on the content (to much how Mary's deal affected Sam instead of Dean) but it was a much better written speech for sure.

Ah, okay. I didn't catch that, because for me (admittedly a Sam-leaning, both brother liking fan,) I thought the Sam content was in character for Dean and thought that Dean's dialogue there was written just about spot on. Not that Jensen didn't do an excellent job with it and elevate it even more, but he was working with much better material to start with in my opinion.

29 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

and Berens/ Dabb were left sitting there wondering what in the heck happened. Don't these stupid fans understand anything. Of course, this is just how I see it

I know you said this was just your opinion, so I for sure am agreeing it is an opinion and not trying to take away from your opinion. For me though it would be weird for the writers to wonder why Sam's speech might be less well received when half of the speech was about what Sam did wrong... so duh, not exactly a ringing endorsement of your character. "Here first let me reiterate in excruciating detail all of the ways I made stupid decisions and why now we need to fix this together."

This pretty much maybe even hinting that somehow Sam's bad judgment lead to all the bad that was happening even though it was bound to happen eventually anyway - watching the second episode of the season in rerun again reminded me that "recruit (read control) or eliminate" was always the BMoL's plan from the start... Lady YayShe'sDead and Mick even discussed exactly that in the car ride as he was taking her to the airport.  If anything Sam and Dean delayed the eliminate consequence with their association with Mick, so having Sam make a speech highlighting how it might be his fault after first having him make the ridiculous decision to join in the first place... I'm not sure how the writers would think that would go over like gangbusters for Sam fans.

I actually thought that one of the main purposes of the speech was to address the criticism from earlier in the season that Sam should apologize to Dean for taking up with the BMoL and lying about it to Sam, so that's what I thought was going on. "Here we have Sam admitting in front of Dean and their peers that his judgement was wrong and look at all that maybe happened because of it (though not really) in detail, so see a Sam admits he was wrong, a bunch, no doubt about that anvil taken care of, okay?" And if that was at least one purpose as I suspect, Sam fans were not the audience there. Maybe the speech seemed so haphazard and repetitive even, because it was modified / rewritten to accommodate that goal without going too far over the edge. Because really if the speech had gone into "and it wasn't Dean's bad decision" or something more direct like that, then the hunters would rightly be wondering "well, then why isn't Dean leading us?" and as I pointed out earlier - awkward.

I'm actually hoping that Dabb will return to season 11 form, myself, where Sam got some strong one-off episodes while Dean got the storyarc, because the current writers can't seem to give Sam storyarc without making him screw up somehow and then have to apologize for it.

[MysteryGuest]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, the content was much better thought out for Dean's scene. I agree with @shang yiet that Sam's seemed more cobbled together and expository (when exposition wasn't needed really) in comparison.

Dean's speech was definitely better written and the sequence was shot better, too.  I thought Sam Smith did a great job with her facial expressions in that scene.  Plus, Dean was able to finally vent his spleen to the person who set them on the path they've been on their whole lives, and then come full circle by forgiving Mary.  And they didn't have to make his character do something stupid in the process.

Unfortunately for Sam, the writers had already screwed him when they had him sign up with the BMOL, so their big final scene was just not very effective.  It's no reflection on Sam, but it speaks volumes about what's wrong with the writing.  Sam and Dean are the heroes of this story.  They can be flawed as all people are, or under the influence of outside forces a la MOC and demon blood, and they're going to make mistakes.  But a good writer can show those flaws and mistakes and give a credible reason for them.  These writers can't seem to do that.

Edited May 28, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[MysteryGuest]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I actually thought that one of the main purposes of the speech was to address the criticism from earlier in the season that Sam should apologize to Dean for taking up with the BMoL and lying about it to Sam, so that's what I thought was going on.

I thought the earlier conversation with Sam and Dean at the bunker when they'd all but given up on getting free took care of any apology or acknowledgment that Sam needed to make.  I actually thought that was a much better scene all the way around than "the speech".  You could see the wheels moving in Sam's head as he really tried to understand himself and why he would have gone along with the BMOL.  Even though he really wouldn't have, at least it was a fairly nuanced scene, just between the brothers.

Edited May 28, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

<snip>

I know you said this was just your opinion, so I for sure am agreeing it is an opinion and not trying to take away from your opinion. For me though it would be weird for the writers to wonder why Sam's speech might be less well received when half of the speech was about what Sam did wrong... so duh, not exactly a ringing endorsement of your character. "Here first let me reiterate in excruciating detail all of the ways I made stupid decisions and why now we need to fix this together."

This pretty much maybe even hinting that somehow Sam's bad judgment lead to all the bad that was happening even though it was bound to happen eventually anyway - watching the second episode of the season in rerun again reminded me that "recruit (read control) or eliminate" was always the BMoL's plan from the start... Lady YayShe'sDead and Mick even discussed exactly that in the car ride as he was taking her to the airport.  If anything Sam and Dean delayed the eliminate consequence with their association with Mick, so having Sam make a speech highlighting how it might be his fault after first having him make the ridiculous decision to join in the first place... I'm not sure how the writers would think that would go over like gangbusters for Sam fans.

<snip>

And yet, this was promoted as Sam's 'shining moment' by the supposed CW media person (who really does not give one single f**k about the show, but that's another post). She talked about how both had these wonderful, emo scenes in 12x22. Granted, I'm assuming it was the speech for Sam, because I can't think of what else she could've meant. 

Seems to me that these showrunners, and for me the buck stops with them, really believe they are giving the people what they want. Given that Dabb only seems to respond to those who are lavishing praise upon them, why wouldn't they.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet, this was promoted as Sam's 'shining moment' by the supposed CW media person (who really does not give one single f**k about the show, but that's another post). She talked about how both had these wonderful, emo scenes in 12x22. Granted, I'm assuming it was the speech for Sam, because I can't think of what else she could've meant. 

I think it might have been the scene between Sam and Dean where Sam admits he followed because it was easy. I actually think that was Sam's shining moment in the episode. The speech was not either emotional or shining, IMO.

For me, Dean's shining moment was when he told Mary, "This is who we are; we kick ass and save the world." Also, IMO, that was the shining moment of the whole episode. Not that Jensen and Samantha didn't do great work before, but that I've been waiting for years for them to acknowledge that everything they've went through, while it was difficult and horrible at times, it is what has made them into the good men they are.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it might have been the scene between Sam and Dean where Sam admits he followed because it was easy. I actually think that was Sam's shining moment in the episode. The speech was not either emotional or shining, IMO.

For me, Dean's shining moment was when he told Mary, "This is who we are; we kick ass and save the world." Also, IMO, that was the shining moment of the whole episode. Not that Jensen and Samantha didn't do great work before, but that I've been waiting for years for them to acknowledge that everything they've went through, while it was difficult and horrible at times, it is what has made them into the good men they are.

I agree, except for the first sentence, because I'm sure that's not what Gomez was talking about. In fact, she first posted about Jensen's scene (a shocker in and of itself, from her) and then brought up Sam's 'shining moment' after the inevitable* 'what about Jared??!?!??!!!' responses.

The rest of your post, 100%.

*I say that being fully aware that the same/reverse would've happened if it had been Jared she mentioned first.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For me though it would be weird for the writers to wonder why Sam's speech might be less well received when half of the speech was about what Sam did wrong

When the episode aired, I read a lot of "OMG, he is like George Washington" and "I would follow him to hell, he is such a leader and hero" on twitter. Which I posit where exactly what the writing was going for in that scene. The responsibility part was IMO very easily swallowed up by the "shinyness" of it. From the camera work to the dialogue to the adoring gazes it had all the markings of a BDH scene so I totally get why the writers would legit expect that reaction.

Just for me personally it was once again hammering its point way too hard. Yes, I found it obnoxious that Dean wasn`t included in a pivotal scene about hunterdom like this and that he sat there gazing like all those other flunkies but even if he had given that speech, I would have found it too much. The "follow me" just kills it dead, no matter who says it. It comes across as egotistical.  

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, okay. I didn't catch that, because for me (admittedly a Sam-leaning, both brother liking fan,) I thought the Sam content was in character for Dean and thought that Dean's dialogue there was written just about spot on. Not that Jensen didn't do an excellent job with it and elevate it even more, but he was working with much better material to start with in my opinion.

I know you said this was just your opinion, so I for sure am agreeing it is an opinion and not trying to take away from your opinion. For me though it would be weird for the writers to wonder why Sam's speech might be less well received when half of the speech was about what Sam did wrong... so duh, not exactly a ringing endorsement of your character. "Here first let me reiterate in excruciating detail all of the ways I made stupid decisions and why now we need to fix this together."

This pretty much maybe even hinting that somehow Sam's bad judgment lead to all the bad that was happening even though it was bound to happen eventually anyway - watching the second episode of the season in rerun again reminded me that "recruit (read control) or eliminate" was always the BMoL's plan from the start... Lady YayShe'sDead and Mick even discussed exactly that in the car ride as he was taking her to the airport.  If anything Sam and Dean delayed the eliminate consequence with their association with Mick, so having Sam make a speech highlighting how it might be his fault after first having him make the ridiculous decision to join in the first place... I'm not sure how the writers would think that would go over like gangbusters for Sam fans.

I actually thought that one of the main purposes of the speech was to address the criticism from earlier in the season that Sam should apologize to Dean for taking up with the BMoL and lying about it to Sam, so that's what I thought was going on. "Here we have Sam admitting in front of Dean and their peers that his judgement was wrong and look at all that maybe happened because of it (though not really) in detail, so see a Sam admits he was wrong, a bunch, no doubt about that anvil taken care of, okay?" And if that was at least one purpose as I suspect, Sam fans were not the audience there. Maybe the speech seemed so haphazard and repetitive even, because it was modified / rewritten to accommodate that goal without going too far over the edge. Because really if the speech had gone into "and it wasn't Dean's bad decision" or something more direct like that, then the hunters would rightly be wondering "well, then why isn't Dean leading us?" and as I pointed out earlier - awkward.

I'm actually hoping that Dabb will return to season 11 form, myself, where Sam got some strong one-off episodes while Dean got the storyarc, because the current writers can't seem to give Sam storyarc without making him screw up somehow and then have to apologize for it.

If the intent was an apology to Dean then it should/would have been written into the bunker scene. Instead Sam does the I was afraid to lead nonsense. In other words, IMO, the speech had nothing to do with Sam apologizing to Dean. Also, none of the bad that the BMoL did was a result of Sam working with them. Mary yes, but she was in their camp before Sam. Sam didn't have anything to apologize to the hunters about. It was just a convoluted speech, iMO, written to demonstrate the redemption of the flawed hero so he could lead the hunters to save the day. Unfortunately, these writers, under Dabb just aren't that good at redemptive arc. Just look at Mary.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

They can be flawed as all people are, or under the influence of outside forces a la MOC and demon blood, and they're going to make mistakes.  But a good writer can show those flaws and mistakes and give a credible reason for them.  These writers can't seem to do that.

This!

[catrox14]

If Dean or John had been asking, training, or compelling Sam to step up all this time and be a leader and he was all "Nope, I'm good", maybe I could buy in. Maybe I'm forgetting a giant plot point. I've never considered, and I don't think the writers intend him going to college as rejection of leadership but of a life he didn't want to have. I don't see him not looking for Dean as avoiding leadership ( I see the latter as more of another round of "Nope. I want out of this life because it's nothing but death and destruction of my entire family. Fuck this shit, I'm out).  NO ONE was expecting nor demanding Sam to lead an army. They just though he should help other people by Saving People and Hunting Things.

You know who did want him to lead an army into battle? Azazel. A Prince of Hell. Would it have been easier to follow Azazel? 

Who was it easier for Sam to follow? Ruby? Lucifer? Did he follow Ruby because it was easier? Easier than what? Leading her to the good side? Easier than following Dean's advice to not go with a demon? Or to not become Lucifer's meatsuit?

I am so confused by this and it doesn't make any sense to me other than as a really inorganic way to make sure Sam is now considered a leader by hunters?? Demons in hell that should be worried about him? Monsters? Dean???

I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed all the time, but I think I keep up with plots and character arcs but this is just ...what???

I.DON'T.GET.IT.

Playing devil's advocate (heh) and accepting the premise for the sake of argument that Sam had always just followed because it was easier or even that he just didn't believe in himself enough....how does that comport with his actions in s10 when he lead Charlie, Cas and Rowena on the mission to save Dean, which he believed was noble, right and true because he had to save Dean from the Mark of Cain. Or when he rallied everyone at the end of s11 to get their shit together and find an answer for saving the solar system from destruction because of the dying sun?

So why even have Sam say this at all. It's nonsensical, IMO.

It's almost like Dabb is reinventing Sam in a big huge steering of the Titanic way. Small, subtle retcons that are taking a long time to turn that big ass ship around and steer it to the end of Sam's Hero Journey.  

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Who was it easier for Sam to follow? Ruby? Lucifer? Did he follow Ruby because it was easier? Easier than what? Leading her to the good side? Easier than following Dean's advice to not go with a demon? Or to not become Lucifer's meatsuit?

Personally, I think Sam has tended to follow more--not ALWAYS, but more often than not--after his stint with Ruby. I don't think he's trusted his own instincts since then and tends to defer to Dean. 

However, I also think he's talking specifically about how he's generally easy to convince as long as there's a grand purpose--removing the Mark; riding the world of monsters--and tends to leap without looking. That's how he got in trouble with the Brits. He followed them for an idea, a nice happy idea if you don't try too hard to see the ugliness beneath it. It was easy to say lets make the world safer and then distance yourself from how that's getting accomplished. 

I personally don't think it was meant to be literally leadership in the sense Sam feels like he needs to be in charge of everything, but he needs to stop looking for the greener pastures and start looking at what is right in front of him. That's why it was so important to show him not taking the deal Hess offered at the end. It would've been a lot easier for him to back down and let the Brits help with Lucifer, but then he'd be back in the same boat where he didn't have a paddle. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

I don't think the speech is establishing Sam as a "leader" among hunters. There were a laughably small number of hunters on the raid in the first place. Several of them died. Who now recognizes him as the head of the American hunters -- Jodi? 

I do agree that the show really hasn't established Sam as a follower, except to the extent that he often defers to Dean when their relationship is in a good place, which makes perfect sense given the sibling dynamic there. I just don't see him as following the BMOL because it was easier to follow; he followed them (to a quite minimal extent!) because he liked the idea of a world without monsters and didn't maintain sufficient skepticism about the BMOL's means of achieving it. 

My sense of the scene is that it was written to fit with the narrative of Dean as a parent figure to Sam, who --after feeling like he failed as a parent because of everything that has happened n Sam's life -- now gets to watch his boy "grow up." Which seems a little artificial at this point; if Sam didn't "grow up" when he accepted responsibility for his mistakes and threw himself into the pit, I don't see how any act fits the bill. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by companionenvy

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think the speech is establishing Sam as a "leader" among hunters. There were a laughably small number of hunters on the raid in the first place. Several of them died. Who now recognizes him as the head of the American hunters -- Jodi? 

I do agree that the show really hasn't established Sam as a follower, except to the extent that he often defers to Dean when their relationship is in a good place, which makes perfect sense given the sibling dynamic there. I just don't see him as following the BMOL because it was easier to follow; he followed them (to a quite minimal extent!) because he liked the idea of a world without monsters and didn't maintain sufficient skepticism about the BMOL's means of achieving it. 

My sense of the scene is that it was written to fit with the narrative of Dean as a parent figure to Sam, who --after feeling like he failed as a parent because of everything that has happened n Sam's life -- now gets to watch his boy "grow up." Which seems a little artificial at this point; if Sam didn't "grow up" when he accepted responsibility for his mistakes and threw himself into the pit, I don't see how any act fits the bill. 

Personally, I think everyone is taking leading and following too literal. I think Sam's tour with the Brits was a veiled political statement of how easy it is to say you believe in a cause (follow), but much harder to live that belief (lead). For instance, it's easy to say go green and save the planet, but much harder to stop driving your car or walk across the street to a recycle bin instead of throwing your plastic bottle in the garbage can next to you. 

Sam followed the Brits in the sense he signed up for their cause and let them tell him where to go and what to hunt, but Sam didn't really do anything he wouldn't have already been doing without them. If Sam really wanted to be a part of the cause he needed to get involved and do something to make it happen. At least Mary lived her belief, even if she was gullible and naive in her belief.

[MysteryGuest]

54 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sam followed the Brits in the sense he signed up for their cause and let them tell him where to go and what to hunt, but Sam didn't really do anything he wouldn't have already been doing without them. If Sam really wanted to be a part of the cause he needed to get involved and do something to make it happen. At least Mary lived her belief, even if she was gullible and naive in her belief.

Agreed, and that's why I thought his scene at the bunker was much more compelling.  His reasoning for going along with them was fine...using their intel and organized methods as a more efficient way of hunting.  That's perfectly in character for Sam, because saving people is what he wants most.  

It would have been so much better had the writers kept the audience in the dark about the BMOL's true motives along with Sam and Dean.  They could have still had the torture bit at the beginning, but we'd have bought the "rogue agent" explanation.  Show them going on hunts, and being successful, but keep us guessing as to whether they're good or evil.  Let us think they've found an ally until it all goes terribly wrong.  By letting us in on the secret right from the beginning the way they did, it made for a very frustrating season.  Having to watch Sam and Dean miss all of the glaringly obvious signs wasn't fun.  With just a few tweaks, it could have been a much more satisfying season.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It would have been so much better had the writers kept the audience in the dark about the BMOL's true motives along with Sam and Dean.  They could have still had the torture bit at the beginning, but we'd have bought the "rogue agent" explanation.  Show them going on hunts, and being successful, but keep us guessing as to whether they're good or evil.  Let us think they've found an ally until it all goes terribly wrong.  By letting us in on the secret right from the beginning the way they did, it made for a very frustrating season.  Having to watch Sam and Dean miss all of the glaringly obvious signs wasn't fun.  With just a few tweaks, it could have been a much more satisfying season.

Since, their usual approach is to keep it all a secret and pull a gotcha at the end of the season, I think they were trying to mess with the audiences expectations by laying it all out there in a straightforward fashion and have the audience assume there was more to it. So, while I agree it was frustrating to watch and they tipped their hand to the audience too early, I also think they at least tried to take a novel approach to it this season. Failure or not, I can appreciate the effort on that level, at least.

Edited May 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Since, their usual approach is to keep it all a secret and pull a gotcha at the end of the season, I think they were trying to mess with the audiences expectations by laying it all out there in a straightforward fashion and have the audience assume there was more to it. While I agree it was frustrating to watch and they tipped their hand to the audience too early, I also think they at least tried to take a novel approach to it this season, so failure or not, I can appreciate the effort on that level.

I hear you, and I'd have been just as annoyed had they led us to believe they were good, and then waited until the last episode to show us the truth.  I just think they could have played it out a bit longer, revealed small bits and pieces to make us suspicious, but keep us guessing.  It shouldn't have to be all or nothing.  I guess I'll just never stop wanting better writing for this show.  

[Pondlass1]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

would have been so much better had the writers kept the audience in the dark about the BMOL's true motives along with Sam and Dean.

Bingo!  This ^ is where they went wrong. I saw it mentioned in so many reviews of the season - don't let your audience know more than your heroes.  Otherwise they appear ineffective and foolish.  

 

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I just think they could have played it out a bit longer, revealed small bits and pieces to make us suspicious, but keep us guessing

 This ^ is how the BMOL should have been played out.  It would have made the season so much more entertaining and way less frustrating. Subtlety is not Andrew's middle name unfortunately.  It's all parallels, anvils, and shock and awe with no follow through.

Edit to Add: I'm reminded of the episode where Dean befriended the Siren.  Andrew would have had us aware right away so that Dean = gullible. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Pondlass1
remembered something

[CluelessDrifter]

I wasn't really sure where to put this, but I think here is as good as anywhere, since it's a question about 12.23.

How did Sam and Dean not being born make the other universe the way it was?  Did the angels just get some cousin of Mary's to marry some cousin of John's, and they had kids that failed where Dean and Sam succeeded?  

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I wasn't really sure where to put this, but I think here is as good as anywhere, since it's a question about 12.23.

How did Sam and Dean not being born make the other universe the way it was?  Did the angels just get some cousin of Mary's to marry some cousin of John's, and they had kids that failed where Dean and Sam succeeded?  

I think it means that both Michael & Lucifer got out and found accepting vessels (versus Sam & Dean who not only fought, but put Luci back in the Cage).  The net result was planet-wide destruction. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I wasn't really sure where to put this, but I think here is as good as anywhere, since it's a question about 12.23.

How did Sam and Dean not being born make the other universe the way it was?  Did the angels just get some cousin of Mary's to marry some cousin of John's, and they had kids that failed where Dean and Sam succeeded?  

I assumed that things still happened mostly the same, but Sam and Dean just weren't there. Another one of Yellow Eye's psychic kids let Lucifer out and Michael and Lucifer fought in less than desirable vessels. That's why they Heaven and Hell were still locked in perpetual war, neither vessel was strong enough to win. I'm sure it doesn't entirely work, but what does?

[auntvi]

This may have been discussed earlier, but I didn't see it. Why did Cas jump back through the tear with his angel blade drawn after Crowley's spell? He was in on the planning with Sam, Dean and Crowley, so he knew the plan. And he promised Kelly that he would raise Sproutifer. I wonder if it was one last attempt to undo the harm from letting Lucifer possess him.

[CluelessDrifter]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think it means that both Michael & Lucifer got out and found accepting vessels (versus Sam & Dean who not only fought, but put Luci back in the Cage).  The net result was planet-wide destruction. 

 

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I assumed that things still happened mostly the same, but Sam and Dean just weren't there. Another one of Yellow Eye's psychic kids let Lucifer out and Michael and Lucifer fought in less than desirable vessels. That's why they Heaven and Hell were still locked in perpetual war, neither vessel was strong enough to win. I'm sure it doesn't entirely work, but what does?

See, I thought about one of Azazel's other psy kids leading the demon army, but then I thought about how Lucifer only sent him on that mission to find a special child, so that child would then kill Lilith.  That doesn't necessarily change anything as any random psy kid could have presumably done that.  And I guess the demons could've somehow found a random righteous man willing to sell his soul, so Alistair could break the first seal, and that random righteous man was the only one who could stop it, but didn't . . . maybe because he agreed to become Michael's vessel, and he wasn't strong enough as he wasn't a OTV . . . same goes for Nick, because I guess Lucifer still went to him . . . except that raises all kinds of questions about the prophecies in that universe that lead to Sam and Dean being and born.  Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean, which is why the angels went about making sure the lines of Cain and Abel eventually lead to Sam and Dean.  Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same, and if that's the case, then how much of it is because Sam and Dean weren't born, and how much of it is because the prophecies weren't there?

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, auntvi said:

This may have been discussed earlier, but I didn't see it. Why did Cas jump back through the tear with his angel blade drawn after Crowley's spell? He was in on the planning with Sam, Dean and Crowley, so he knew the plan. And he promised Kelly that he would raise Sproutifer. I wonder if it was one last attempt to undo the harm from letting Lucifer possess him.

I don't know exactly what the plan was supposed to be, but it seems Crowley was improvising, so maybe Cass figured he should too? ::shrugs::

However, this led me to another question. Why did Bobby give Dean the gun with the angel bullets? I mean, did Bobby know they were planning to lock the Devil in his universe? Why would he be on board with that? I mean, I'd think Bobby would be like, "We have enough problems already, we don't need your problems too."

Thinky thoughts.

9 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean, which is why the angels went about making sure the lines of Cain and Abel eventually lead to Sam and Dean.  Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same, and if that's the case, then how much of it is because Sam and Dean weren't born, and how much of it is because the prophecies weren't there?

I always figured the "prophecies" were false. I thought it was mostly propaganda--based loosely on what they believed Daddy's plan was--the archangels spread to keep the underling angels on-board and mission-focused.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

This may have been discussed earlier, but I didn't see it. Why did Cas jump back through the tear with his angel blade drawn after Crowley's spell? He was in on the planning with Sam, Dean and Crowley, so he knew the plan. And he promised Kelly that he would raise Sproutifer. I wonder if it was one last attempt to undo the harm from letting Lucifer possess him.

According to Misha, well, first he said Cas isn't the brightest angel, but then he said that Cas was just mission oriented on hunting down Lucifer and trying to stop him.  Getting rid of Lucifer, portal closing or not, was the only thing that mattered in that moment.

Edited May 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, auntvi said:

This may have been discussed earlier, but I didn't see it. Why did Cas jump back through the tear with his angel blade drawn after Crowley's spell? He was in on the planning with Sam, Dean and Crowley, so he knew the plan. And he promised Kelly that he would raise Sproutifer. I wonder if it was one last attempt to undo the harm from letting Lucifer possess him.

We were discussing it in the spoiler thread and it's my main question. There is not any good reason for it.

 

14 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

According to Misha, well, first he said Cas isn't the brightest angel, but then he said that Cas was just mission oriented on hunting down Lucifer and trying to stop him.  Getting rid of Lucifer portal closing or not didn't really matter in that moment.

Do you have a link to where Misha said that? Because I'd like to hear his tone of voice. Maybe he was joking or he doesn't want to give something away? Wow if that is what was written and what Dabb wanted for Cas, well, fuck that.

But even that answer doesn't make sense because that wasn't the mission for Cas. The mission was lock Lucifer away and be there for Sproutifer.

[CluelessDrifter]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, this led me to another question. Why did Bobby give Dean the gun with the angel bullets? I mean, did Bobby know they were planning to lock the Devil in his universe? Why would he be on board with that? I mean, I'd think Bobby would be like, "We have enough problems already, we don't need your problems too."

Honestly, I thought it would've been the perfect time for him to sneak over to the other side while they were preoccupied.  He did comment on how he'd heard everything was so great in the SPN universe.

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always figured the "prophecies" were false. I thought it was mostly propaganda--based loosely on what they believed Daddy's plan was--the archangels spread to keep the underling angels on-board and mission-focused.

Except the prophecies weren't false.  At least the righteous man prophecy wasn't.  Sam and Dean changed the destiny that Gabriel mentioned, but that doesn't really change what I meant.  Without the prophecies/Chuck's loose plan, the angels wouldn't have made sure Sam and Dean were born, and Sam and Dean wouldn't have had the lives they lived that lead to them finding out about the 'destiny' they were able to fight.  

Anyway, I guess what I think this whole set up is meant to be a teachable moment for Mary, like if she still had any doubts about what her sons have done for the world, being in a world where she didn't make her deal would probably get rid of them.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Do you have a link to where Misha said that? Because I'd like to hear his tone of voice. Maybe he was joking or he doesn't want to give something away? Wow if that is what was written and what Dabb wanted for Cas, well, fuck that.

But even that answer doesn't make sense because that wasn't the mission for Cas. The mission was lock Lucifer away and be there for Sproutifer.

It's the link I sent you previously of his panel.  It starts at the 8:00 mark.  He was definitely joking about the Cas not being the brightest angel, but then he gives Cas's reasoning as he sees it.

[Airmid]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always figured the "prophecies" were false. I thought it was mostly propaganda--based loosely on what they believed Daddy's plan was--the archangels spread to keep the underling angels on-board and mission-focused.

Whether or not the prophecies were false, the bloodline thing was established. Especially with Dean being a descendent of Cain and that Cain had to kill Abel so he would go to heaven, cursing Cain to be what he became. Essentially mirroring early seasons where Dean had to keep Sam from doing ill so he was willing to sell his soul to both give his brother back life and ensure his survival. 

Both made ill-advised decisions but it was a thing and probably why Michael had Cain's bloodline, being the older brother forced to stop the younger from doing harm. Lucifer being the not so bright archangel lured by ideas of power, superority and greed from the mark's influence and his own personality.

Now it's just a free for all with vessels. Who cares about bloodlines, what the cupids did (keep bloodlines intact to ensure angel vessels for the future and the true vessels). 

23 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

That doesn't necessarily change anything as any random psy kid could have presumably done that.  And I guess the demons could've somehow found a random righteous man willing to sell his soul, so Alistair could break the first seal,

The righteous soul breaks the seal by spilling blood in hell - not Alistair. Not that it matters because goodbye Dean's storyline of being the one to start and stop it. If any random smuck could do it why bother with the Winchesters at all. 

Not only is it a case where the early seasons did them no good in terms of story telling (everything shifted with the writers strike, Dean then going to hell because they didn't have enough time to develop Sam's arc, then Kripke deciding angels had to be a thing because demons needing a counterpart, etc) but it jettisons a bunch of old lore like it was nothing. 

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, this led me to another question. Why did Bobby give Dean the gun with the angel bullets? I mean, did Bobby know they were planning to lock the Devil in his universe? Why would he be on board with that? I mean, I'd think Bobby would be like, "We have enough problems already, we don't need your problems too."

Lol knowing them, I bet they "forgot" to mention that part to Bobby. Would be the most plausible and realistic explanation. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 Why did Bobby give Dean the gun with the angel bullets?

I always figured the "prophecies" were false. I thought it was mostly propaganda--based loosely on what they believed Daddy's plan was--the archangels spread to keep the underling angels on-board and mission-focused.

And why didn't Dean know that the bullets wouldn't kill Lucifer?  Archangels have to be killed with a special archangel blade, I thought.  Unless he was doing just as a way to stall until Crowley got the spell done - which I could see.  Crowley sure took long enough to dump some ingredients into a bowl, huh?

42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always figured the "prophecies" were false. I thought it was mostly propaganda--based loosely on what they believed Daddy's plan was--the archangels spread to keep the underling angels on-board and mission-focused.

I can go with that.  Or if not outright false, sufficiently vague enough (as prophecies usually are) that they could actually apply to more than one set of brothers.  They just happened to hone in on the Winchesters since they did meet all the criteria, and once you found something that works, why keep looking?

15 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Whether or not the prophecies were false, the bloodline thing was established. Especially with Dean being a descendent of Cain

You know - Sam and Dean being brothers, technically Sam is also a descendant of Cain.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure they aren't the only descendants of Cain out there.