S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[Dobian]

Finally watching these and still have to watch the last one today, and haven't read one post here yet.  They need to outlaw all these networks doing their stupid two-hour shows and finales on the same night.  I thought this one was great, I give it an A.  I thought the whole BMoL plot was lame, and the Mary brainwashing plot they tacked on at the last minute was stupid, but they really kicked ass in this episode.  I loved Dean blasting their way out of that bunker, even though it underlined how stupid it was trying to kill them that way.  Like Ketch never figured they had a whole arsenal down there to just blow a hole through the damn wall.  The dream scene between Dean and Mary was terrific, it resolved everything going on with Dean from the beginning of the series.  The writing was terrific and Ackles played it extremely well.  The Ketch fight scene was cool.  The raid on BMoL was great, and when Lady Hogwarts pulled the old, "you might want to kill us but you still need us" bullshit, Sam looked like he was wavering but said no freaking way, he was having none of it.  And Jody capped her, yay Jody!  And of course the final scene with the three of them, I thought that redeemed the season.  Whatever happens in the next episode is back to the usual cheese whiz, this was the season finale as far as I'm concerned.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Dobian

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, Ria said:

Only the top demons and Knights of Hell would be a challenge. And presumably most of the archangels are around in the AU to deal with them.

Except for when Dean was a Knight of Hell and he didn't get to use telepathy at all :(

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Whatever happens in the next episode is back to the usual cheese whiz, this was the season finale as far as I'm concerned.

I was talking to a friend right after watching this one and totally said, "That was a satisfying finale...oh, yeah, we still got the Devil baby drama...never mind!" ;)

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

.  Like Ketch never figured they had a whole arsenal down there to just blow a hole through the damn wall. 

Yeah...pretty dumb. I loved the expressions as Dean remembered the grenade launcher and again when he was using it.

[catrox14]

Wait, did the episode thread for 12.23 get merged with 12.22? This is confusing me. They were separate episodes.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, did the episode thread for 12.23 get merged with 12.22? This is confusing me. They were separate episodes.

I was surprised they were separate in the first place! I know over on the Once forum the two part finale were made into one thread, so I was surprised it was different here. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I was surprised they were separate in the first place! I know over on the Once forum the two part finale were made into one thread, so I was surprised it was different here. 

Wasn't that setup to be a clear two part episode from what little I know about it. 

Like here everything with Mary and the BMOL is basically an entirely separate SL than Cas and the Nephilim. That's why I'm kind of confused about this. LOL

I mean it doesn't really matter kind of I just found it confusing. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, Binns said:

Ooooohh...it's been killing me trying to figure them out. I thought "church steeples" when I first saw them but that doesn't make a lot of sense. 

@rue721 - I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a body impaled on at least one of them.  :)  

[gonzosgirrl]

Seems to me these were meant to be two separate episodes aired back-to-back, rather than a two hour finale. Not sure what the distinction is, but now it looks like S12 only had 22 episodes. Might be weird for posterity.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So, what happened to all the posts that I hadn't read yet in the (former) ep 23 thread?  Are they here now?  I have to go back through 10 pages?  Why were they merged?  I'm with @catrox14: I'm confused.

[Res]

On 5/19/2017 at 9:23 AM, bethy said:

Oooo. I would be happy with this, too. It would be nice to have some "real" stakes again.

Considering the show is titled, "Supernatural", and is supposed to be about the supernatural, I would be very disappointed if it just focused on human. That is a soap opera which are a dime a dozen on tv now so, no, no real interest in. And considering all Sam and Dean have been through and come back from, there haven't been "real" stakes for a while and won't be "real" as long as the show goes on, because the show, you know, goes on. 

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, did the episode thread for 12.23 get merged with 12.22? This is confusing me. They were separate episodes.

Yep, looks like they merged it sometime this morning.

Okay, the final episode.  This emphasizes again what I said recently about putting two story arcs in one season.  The last episode would have made for an incredibly satisfying season finale, with the final shot of mom and her two sons hugging.  Instead, we leave the season on a lame cliffhanger with Sam in a dark room with grownup baby Jack.  It also goes to show how much better - as lame as it was - the BMoL plot line was compared to the Lucifer baby story line.  I thought it was pretty disrespectful that they had Lucifer kill Rowena off-screen.  She deserved a proper on-screen send-off.  Sam and Dean hearing about the massive power outage that was traced to a specific address that they read over the internet, how plot contrived can you get?  So how come no one from the public utilities company goes there and sees the flaming column in the yard?  It would have taken Sam and Dean full day driving non-stop through the night to get to Washington, all the while this mysterious power outage that has been reported surely would have been investigated by the local authorities.  As for Cas and Crowley being dead, puh-lease.  Lucifer baby can probably bring Cas back to life and Lucifer and Mary probably need Crowley to get the portal opened up again, so Lucifer will find a way to bring Crowley back to life.  Lame cliffhanger finish.  A real yawner after the tremendous penultimate episode.

[Binns]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

I think he doesn't do the cons because he doesn't need that extra source of income and, IMO, I don't think he likes being on stage like that. He got a lot of love when he did one a couple years ago, but he seemed really nervous and uncomfortable. I think it's kinda daunting to stand up in front of all those people and talk about yourself, it's different than just performing, IMO. It's just not every actor's cup of tea.

From the vids I've seen too I'm not sure how much he kept up with the show after he left or even how deeply he delved into the character's motivations so it was challenging for him to answer fan questions. The boys are used to detailed questions and being asked how their characters would behave in certain situations and he almost certainly hasn't thought about John that much ...so it might serve to make him nervous that he won't know what to say or that he'll say something that will completely change canon or whatever. 

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Res said:

Considering the show is titled, "Supernatural", and is supposed to be about the supernatural, I would be very disappointed if it just focused on human. That is a soap opera which are a dime a dozen on tv now so, no, no real interest in. And considering all Sam and Dean have been through and come back from, there haven't been "real" stakes for a while and won't be "real" as long as the show goes on, because the show, you know, goes on. 

I know the show is called "Supernatural," and I didn't say I wanted it focused on only humans. What I would be interested in seeing is Dean and Sam having to actually deal with physical consequences of what they're doing as they fight supernatural creatures. I would like to see them struggle again against foes they can defeat through smarts or strength or experience instead of having angels or demons or gods who are either too powerful to be defeated or who can snap their fingers to heal or fix or change. And, no, that isn't a soap opera.

[Dobian]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he doesn't do the cons because he doesn't need that extra source of income and, IMO, I don't think he likes being on stage like that. He got a lot of love when he did one a couple years ago, but he seemed really nervous and uncomfortable. I think it's kinda daunting to stand up in front of all those people and talk about yourself, it's different than just performing, IMO. It's just not every actor's cup of tea.

This pretty much sums up why some actors might not do conventions.

Shatner smacks down the Star Trek fans

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, bethy said:

I know the show is called "Supernatural," and I didn't say I wanted it focused on only humans. What I would be interested in seeing is Dean and Sam having to actually deal with physical consequences of what they're doing as they fight supernatural creatures. I would like to see them struggle again against foes they can defeat through smarts or strength or experience instead of having angels or demons or gods who are either too powerful to be defeated or who can snap their fingers to heal or fix or change. And, no, that isn't a soap opera.

I'm on board with this. ETA: More along the lines of the creatures they fought in the beginning - wendigos, etc., without angelic (or demonic) help.

It's actually kind of funny that Dean gets the everloving shit kicked out of him, thrown into walls, bounced off headstones, etc., and goes on fighting, but they have a gashed up leg take him out of the biggest non-supernatural-being fight they've ever had. Considering what they were doing, I'd have been fine with him just saying he's going to save Mom, period.

9 minutes ago, Dobian said:

This pretty much sums up why some actors might not do conventions.

Shatner smacks down the Star Trek fans

JDM is scheduled for at least a few Creation cons this year though. Toronto for sure - I'll have to look up the others. Chicago maybe?

Edited May 21, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

Here's some crack!spec for ya. Maybe they winnowed down the recurring stars and leads because they're trying to free up some money to bring JDM back for an appearance next season? ;)

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

 

It's actually kind of funny that Dean gets the everloving shit kicked out of him, thrown into walls, bounced off headstones, etc., and goes on fighting, but they have a gashed up leg take him out of the biggest non-supernatural-being fight they've ever had. Considering what they were doing, I'd have been fine with him just saying he's going to save Mom, period.

 

Same here!

[SueB]

30 minutes ago, Dobian said:

This pretty much sums up why some actors might not do conventions.

Shatner smacks down the Star Trek fans

After Vegas last year, JDM is gung-ho for coming to conventions when he can fit them in.  He's going to MinnCon as well as Toronto, don't know about others.  Jensen has been telling him about what they mean to him.  I've also seen JDM at a Walking Dead convention -- where he's a far more relevant figure right now.

Edited May 21, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Rewatching E22 right now.  Had to go get the lap top to write, er type, down thoughts as they occurred.  

• That opening sequence with Mary killing American hunters is brutal.  I remembered wondering the first time I watched how they were going to redeem her.  I know "brainwashing" and all - but still.  I hope it doesn't all get swept under the rug, but I'm afraid it will.  Also notice that Jody is the 3rd name down after she takes out Lester.  So there were two others Mary already killed before she showed up at Jody's.  
• Look at Dean being all smart reading blueprints!  Okay, shallow me might have rewound the digging through the wall scene a few (hundred) times.  Also love the bts story I read (heard?) somewhere that J and J actually broke through that thick wall in no time.  Lol!  Go Texas boys!
• Which makes the part with the grenade launcher even better.  "Action movie loving, cheeseburger eating, moronic lunatics!" indeed!  Love how Sam is just standing there with his arms crossed while Lady Ohitdoesn'tmattercauseshe'sdeadnow rants and then grabs her and forcibly ushers her out. 
• I don't really understand how Dean got out though.  There was only a hole in the wall which led to a pipe?  some metal looking thing, but the hole in the wall didn't look too deep (at least not deep enough for a person, especially one of Dean's stature to fit through) and then there was a secondary explosion which seemed to close the hole in the wall with more debris.  Then Sam stumbled through the bunker, breathing heavily, until the air came back on.  Shallow Me really appreciated those tshirt scenes.
• Love the first shot of Jody sitting and Alex standing beside her when the guys bust in Jody's house.  Jody holding an ice pack to her face and just points and BizarroMary.  Now that's how you show some bad-ass women.  They'd better not ever kill over those two - or Claire.  (I know some people don't like her, but she's part of Jody's family, so she stays.)  Unless maybe Claire got a really good send off - and not just a fridging for the man-pain, which I don't see happening especially after Eileen. 
• I'd have wasted Lady AtthispointI'mwonderingwhyshe'sstillalive as soon as she said she lied that she could fix Mary, which Dean was going to do.  So why didn't he?
• What I saw during Sam's whole speech to the other hunters was his face showing he was so insecure that anyone would believe in him and be willing to join with or 'follow' him.  He was so afraid that he wouldn't be forgiven, because he'd messed up so much.  Dean would have never been that scared in the same situation, even if he'd messed up just as much.  
• Still love that moment between Jody and Alex talking about her going to Donna's safe house.  
• Gained a little respect for Lady Stillgladshe'sdead for only asking for a head start and not a pass.  A little.  But not much.  Smart Dean handcuffed her to the table.  
• Dean talking about all the things that happened to Sam were especially powerful because Psychic/Dream Mary was looking at InfantSam when Dean was saying all that.  So he's laying out the truth - of what does happen (to Sam specifically because that's who she's looking at) because of her deal with Azazel (which he also references) - to help break her out of this 'dream' which she is choosing (as Dean also noted when she pulled away from him) in order to avoid dealing with the painful present.   And as someone else upthread noted, Dean entreating Mary to look at HIM - to really see him (as he is, as an adult) was very powerful.  If Mary hadn't seen and accepted Dean - the present, adult Dean - I don't think she would have come out of the brainwashing.  
•  "Open a portal" from Dr. Hess-Umbridge was very interesting.  Might explain how they seemed to get back and forth from London so quickly.  Even though Sam seemed to hesitate when she told him about Lucifer, proud of him once again when he turned her down.  
• From the outside, the BMoL headquarter was bigger than it looked from the inside.
• Love the "made us who we are" speech from Dean.  
• Really wish these last two eps had aired on separate nights to allow more time to digest this one separately from 23.  

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Rewatching E22 right now.  Had to go get the lap top to write, er type, down thoughts as they occurred.  

• That opening sequence with Mary killing American hunters is brutal.  I remembered wondering the first time I watched how they were going to redeem her.  I know "brainwashing" and all - but still.  I hope it doesn't all get swept under the rug, but I'm afraid it will.  Also notice that Jody is the 3rd name down after she takes out Lester.  So there were two others Mary already killed before she showed up at Jody's.  
• Look at Dean being all smart reading blueprints!  Okay, shallow me might have rewound the digging through the wall scene a few (hundred) times.  Also love the bts story I read (heard?) somewhere that J and J actually broke through that thick wall in no time.  Lol!  Go Texas boys!
• Which makes the part with the grenade launcher even better.  "Action movie loving, cheeseburger eating, moronic lunatics!" indeed!  Love how Sam is just standing there with his arms crossed while Lady Ohitdoesn'tmattercauseshe'sdeadnow rants and then grabs her and forcibly ushers her out. 
• I don't really understand how Dean got out though.  There was only a hole in the wall which led to a pipe?

It was a pipe ladder you saw thru the hole. Dean climbed it(with a leg he couldn't use to go on the raid) and got to the reset.

 

Quote

•  
•  
•  

Edited May 21, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[RulerofallIsurvey]

54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Considering what they were doing, I'd have been fine with him just saying he's going to save Mom, period.

In ep, that's what he did.

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

It was a pipe ladder you saw thru the hole. 

Except I didn't see any rungs.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

It was a pipe ladder you saw thru the hole. Dean climbed it(with a leg he couldn't use to go on the raid) and got to the reset.

Wasn't that when he injured the leg, when he was climbing up the ladder and the debris fell down?

Edited May 21, 2017 by DittyDotDot
Because auto correct sucks! Or I do, whatever.

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Wasn't it when he injured the leg, when he was climbing up the latter and the debris fell down?

I only saw Sam then. Dean was nowhere to be seen when the debris fell. I had the impression his leg was injured by all the debris when he used the grenade launcher.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I only saw Sam then. Dean was nowhere to be seen when the debris fell. I had the impression his leg was injured by all the debris when he used the grenade launcher.

It doesn't really matter because, like I said, I don't think the leg injury had anything to do with why Dean didn't go on the raid, I just assumed he was injured when all the debris fell down the hole. But, you know what they say about assuming?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

It doesn't really matter because, like I said, I don't think the leg injury had anything to do with why Dean didn't go on the raid, 

I don't know when exactly Dean's leg was injured - if it was because of use of the grenade launcher or when he climbed up the pipe, but since I just finished rewatching, as I said above, in ep, his leg injury had nothing to do with Dean not going on the raid.  At that point, he was all about saving Mary.  Period.

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

In ep, that's what he did.

Except I didn't see any rungs.

I just pulled it up again. They are the old fashioned pipe rungs.

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know when exactly Dean's leg was injured - if it was because of use of the grenade launcher or when he climbed up the pipe, but since I just finished rewatching, as I said above, in ep, his leg injury had nothing to do with Dean not going on the raid.  At that point, he was all about saving Mary.  Period.

I agree. I was being sarcastic originally. Sorry.

[DittyDotDot]

Here ya go, @RulerofallIsurvey:

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Here ya go, @RulerofallIsurvey:

Thanks, I have no clue how to do that....or tag individual people in a comment...or...oh well.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

In ep, that's what he did.

Except I didn't see any rungs.

We know this, but that's not what he said. I was saying they didn't need to have him injured at all. As someone else commented though, it was a good visual for the other hunters in case they thought it was lack of faith in the plan, or a trap, etc.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Here ya go, @RulerofallIsurvey:

Ah!  Thanks!  The still really helps.  The scene flashed by too quickly watching for me to get a good look.  (Either that or I need my eyes checked again!)  It looked like a hatch to me when I was watching.  

Still doesn't look deep enough for Dean to climb up.  ::shrug::  But maybe my depth perception is off too?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Thanks, I have no clue how to do that....or tag individual people in a comment...or...oh well.

To tag someone, just start typing their user name with @ and a list of options will come up for you to choose from. @Idahoforspn

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Thanks, I have no clue how to do that....or tag individual people in a comment...or...oh well.

For photos, videos, tweets or whatnot: just copy and paste the web address into the editor. If it's formatted right, the site does all the rest.

To mention someone else: Type the "@" symbol and start typing the person you want to tag and then choose their name off the pop up list.

Edited May 21, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

For photos, videos, tweets or whatnot: just copy and paste the web address into the editor. If it's formatted right, the site does all the rest.

To mention someone else: Type the "@" symbol and start typing the person you want to tag and then choose their name off the pop up window.

Thank you!!!!

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ah!  Thanks!  The still really helps.  The scene flashed by too quickly watching for me to get a good look.  (Either that or I need my eyes checked again!)  It looked like a hatch to me when I was watching.  

Still doesn't look deep enough for Dean to climb up.  ::shrug::  But maybe my depth perception is off too?

That's because of the front on shot. If there was some side view it would show more of the depth. No problems with your depth perception!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

That's because of the front on shot. If there was some side view it would show more of the depth. No problems with your depth perception!

Actually, I was looking at the shadow of the side of the hole on the pipe itself.  Factoring in the angle of the light needed to make that shadow relative to the edge of the hole - I guess the props department just didn't allow much room thinking no one would notice.  But they underestimated geeks like me.  :)

[rue721]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As someone else commented though, it was a good visual for the other hunters in case they thought it was lack of faith in the plan, or a trap, etc.

Probably different from what you're referring to, but I said this:

On 5/20/2017 at 2:10 PM, rue721 said:

ETA:  imagine all the gossip about why Dean wasn't going.

Hunter A:  "Yeah, and he was sitting there the whole time all stonefaced and then he dipped out!"

Hunter B:  "Oh shit is this an ambush?"

I was just messing around with that post...but to be honest, that actually is how I think, and probably what I would have been wondering if I'd been that room. LOL.

In retrospect, I actually do wish that the American hunters had shown some suspicion and asked some questions and stuff, though. Yeah, maybe that happened in offscreenville. But showing that would have demonstrated WHY none of those other hunters got involved with the BMOL when Sam did.

Edited May 21, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Probably different from what you're referring to, but I said this:

I was just messing around with that post...but to be honest, that actually is how I think, and probably what I would have been wondering if I'd been that room. LOL.

In retrospect, I actually do wish that the American hunters had shown some suspicion and asked some questions and stuff, though. Yeah, maybe that happened in offscreenville. But showing that would have demonstrated WHY none of those other hunters got involved with the BMOL when Sam did.

How could they ask questions if Sam needed to give the Hunter's St Crispin's Day speech. I would be saying the same thing if Dean had to give that same stupid speech. Sorry I hated it no matter who said it

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Probably different from what you're referring to, but I said this:

I was just messing around with that post...but to be honest, that actually is how I think, and probably what I would have been wondering if I'd been that room. LOL.

In retrospect, I actually do wish that the American hunters had shown some suspicion and asked some questions and stuff, though. Yeah, maybe that happened in offscreenville. But showing that would have demonstrated WHY none of those other hunters got involved with the BMOL when Sam did.

Yep, that was it. :) It is kind of crazy that nobody questioned him at all - maybe it was that inspiring music cue. :P Maybe Walt and Roy were just happy *not* to have Dean at their back with guns blazing. Sam should've fragged them himself.

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dean's leg injury was just to show how much of a struggle it was to blast his way out of the bunker.  If he had come back completely intact, it wouldn't have been dramatic enough.  Seeing his bloody leg come through the door helped the scene, I think.  It wasn't supposed to be an easy job.  And it did work in their favor with giving him a visible reason not to go along on the BMOL raid.  I don't think the other hunters would have questioned it.

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is kind of crazy that nobody questioned him at all - maybe it was that inspiring music cue. :P

Or maybe they just got lulled into a coma with all that rah, rah, rah nonsense? ;)

[tessathereaper]

On 5/19/2017 at 7:46 PM, ahrtee said:

 He started out "my brother and I" and then changed to "I..." for the responsibility part, and I think that was just what was needed.  

I just wanted to say I don't think he did.  He started it well before he owned up for taking responsibility about believing the Men of Letters.  He changed it from "we" to "I" right at the start where he talks about calling them all together.  The only thing that needed an "I' in this speech was the part where he said he unlike most of the rest of them he didn't tell the BMOL to go stuff themselves.  That was it.  But he changed it right at the beginning where he starts talking about calling them all together, etc.  And the believing the Men of Letters part of was practically sneeze and you missed it, it wasn't even a full sentence I don't think, maybe 4 or 5 words.   It was sandwiched between calling the other hunters and listing the BMOL's crimes as it were.

There reason for including the line about Dean isn't just for angry Dean fans but in universe because without at least that, Dean is not being presented as a leader at least equally in Sam's speech, in fact Dean isn't really even being presented at all, he's basically a non-entity in Sam's speech.  By

It presents Dean equally and presents a point in Dean's favor, that he distrusted the BMOLs, even if it might be as Sam's expense, it would show humility on Sam's part, he's willing to acknowledge a mistake he made because he didn't listen to Dean, publicly.  Dean deserves that point, because he physically won't be able to go on the mission.  It's about leaving an impression on Sam's audience, who isn't US, but is the other hunters.

As for the rest of it, I agree as I said, it should have been both of them presenting this or at least as you have it, have Dean publically giving Sam the go ahead to do it without him because of his injury.

 

On 5/19/2017 at 10:39 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Never would have worked.  Sam would not have been able to get through to Mary like Dean was able to.  Then Mary would have been lost to both of them forever - just so Dean could have the big Hero moment you want for him, not even what he would want for himself.   In terms of "the Family Business" motto, Dean is the bigger Hero in this episode.  He's the only one who SAVED someone.  

Why wouldn't it have worked?  Talking about all of Sam's pain and suffering is the thing that worked to get her out of it, I'm sure Sam talking about his suffering himself would have done it just as well as Dean talking about it.  There is zero reason to believe Dean is the only one who would have been able to do it.  If it's such a great thing to do then why shouldn't Sam have it and let Dean have the "bigger Hero moment"(especially since he has precious precious few this entire season).

How about Sam talking about how it affected not only him but how it affected Dean?  If Dean won't talk about his own pain, apparently in character, well then why not have SAM do it for him and show that he actually has been paying attention and finally gets it enough to bring it up in this situation talking to their mother. 

Sam "needed this because he needed to redeem himself"? I don't think Sam needs to be yet again "rewarded" for his mistakes by having people follow along with his plan(see Season 5 for an example).  A good start to redemption would be letting an uninjured Dean(because there really was no need for Dean to be injured except as an excuse to keep him out of the raid) lead the raid while Sam stayed home and helped Mom, the other screw up who trusted the British men of letters over Dean's word and opinion.  But I guess it's as out of character for Sam to show any humility as it is for Dean to put his pain in terms of himself and what was done to him. And the writers can't have them showing any character development or growth apparently.

Let Dean, the guy they refused to believe about the BMOLs  being bad news, lead the raid against them and let them figure out their own stuff in Mary's head and hey maybe even bring some attention to Dean's suffering and pain all these years - Sam talking about all that Dean has done for him, sacrificed for and how much it cost Dean to be both father and mother to him, and instead of Dean talking about what a failure he was at it, have Sam saying "It wasn't fair and sometimes it cost him everything but he always put me first" - IMO that would have been much better than yet another example of how Dean can't see himself at all for Sam standing in his way.  

Instead we get Mary still justifying herself to Dean with a semi apology and showing zero understanding of how very damaging and terrible his situation was while being "afraid" Sam would never be able to forgive her.  Same old Same old, no one cares what Dean thinks of them, because they know if he loves them, he'll forgive them so they don't value it, they feel they can do whatever they want and he should accept it  and they get angry, or just lie to him when he doesn't, but Sam, Mary is worried about if he'll be able to forgive her.  And so the whole cycle starts over again with Dean forgiving someone who never respected him in the first place and whose "apology" shows she still doesn't.  

It would have been nice to show Mary worried about Dean's feelings towards her, a change of pace for once.

Quote

The way the scene was conceptionalized had Sam standing in the middle and tell the hunters that his mistake was in being a lazy flunky-self and not realizing he was too good for that and actually be a leader. Then one of the hunters asked him what he wanted them to do and he said to basically be HIS lazy flunkies. "Follow me". So being a follower apparently is not a problem for them. 

And they all looked up at him adoringly. One of them? Being Dean. The scene grouped Dean with the no-name hunters. He was being addressed in the speech like the same lazy flunky they all were. Sam even expected Dean to come along like one of them. 

It wasn`t that the Winchesters together stepped up and galvanized the US hunters. It was Sam stepping up and galvanizing the hunters, including Dean. That gives Dean as much of a standing as Roy or Walt, just another follower. 

If ever there was a story point that called for a co-scene, it was fucking this. And they blew it. 

@Aeryn13 Yes exactly.  This should have been a co-scene.  Dean literally did nothing, said nothing beyond looking worshipful as Sam's terribly self-centered speech.

[tessathereaper]

On 5/20/2017 at 1:12 PM, MysteryGuest said:

But Sam did say all of that.  He said he allowed himself to be swayed by the shiny objects and the dream vision of a world without monsters, and didn't pay much attention to the reality of the choice he'd made.  He went on to list just what separates hunters (not just Sam) from the likes of the BMOL.  They understand that the supernatural world is complex, and not black and white.  He may have said the words "follow me", but the message was "I've seen the error of my ways and I'm asking you to trust me again".  

As for Dean's speech to Mary, as others have said, it was quintessential Dean Winchester.  He talked about how Mary's decision affected all of them, how he had to be all things for Sam, and was basically set up to fail from the get go.  They lost their mother and their father because of her deal.  I agree that Dean's time in hell has been almost forgotten about by the writers, and that absolutely pisses me off, but for me, that wasn't part of this discussion.  Other than when Dean acknowledged that he had also made deals for people he loved.  While Dean's time in Hell was absolutely horrific, he's the one who made that choice as a grown man.  Six month old Sam was an innocent when Yellow Eyes came to his room and tainted him with Demon blood, and that was the direct result of Mary's deal.  That was the whole reason for the deal.  I honestly would have been disappointed if Dean had made it all about him, because that's just not who he is.  I'd have been calling bullshit if they'd done that, frankly.  The Dean I love is selfless where his brother Sam is concerned, right or wrong.  He's damaged and flawed and heroic, and I think finally accepting of his value to the world.  I really thought it was a perfect scene.

But except for Jessica, all of the stuff Dean listed for Sam was a result of Sam's decisions as a grown man as well.   Mary didn't condemn 6 month old Sam to Hell and Sam didn't end up in Hell because of the deal with the YED at least not anymore than Dean ended up in Hell because of Mary's deal with the YED.(don't know why I still prefer to call him YED than Azazel lol).  Jessica is the only thing that happened to Sam, among the things Dean listed, which was a direct result of Mary's deal, the only thing Sam had no control over.  Everything else was a result of Sam's own adult free willed choices the same as Dean's deal.

The demon blood didn't stack anything against Sam.  Sam made the choice to drink it, that is why he got addicted to it.  Plus this is talking about the stuff that Dean listed while speaking with Mary and of that only Jessica's death is a direct result of the demon blood, everything else is a result of either Sam's free will or something that had nothing to do Mary one way or another(the soullessness was Castiel trying and failing to pull Sam out of Hell, he only got his body, not his soul and then proceeded not to tell anyone about how he'd messed up)

Edited May 22, 2017 by tessathereaper
Sorry I thought this would combine with my previous post

[companionenvy]

5 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

 Everything else was a result of Sam's own adult free willed choices the same as Dean's deal.

Well, sort of. There was a LOT of manipulation involved, on the part of both hell and heaven. So, while it is true in the final analysis Sam made his choice, the odds were seriously stacked against him.

As for Dean not going on the raid: I think if it hadn't been for Mary, he would have gone even with the bum leg, because as Sam said -- and as we saw in the fight with Ketch -- even a wounded Dean Winchester is a formidable force. But I also think that if it hadn't been for the leg, he would have gone on the raid and deferred saving Mary until later, because if he was at maximum strength, he would have been too much of an asset to justify staying behind while Sam was going into danger. So I think both were necessary.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Why wouldn't it have worked?  Talking about all of Sam's pain and suffering is the thing that worked to get her out of it, I'm sure Sam talking about his suffering himself would have done it just as well as Dean talking about it.  There is zero reason to believe Dean is the only one who would have been able to do it.  If it's such a great thing to do then why shouldn't Sam have it and let Dean have the "bigger Hero moment"(especially since he has precious precious few this entire season).

How about Sam talking about how it affected not only him but how it affected Dean?  If Dean won't talk about his own pain, apparently in character, well then why not have SAM do it for him and show that he actually has been paying attention and finally gets it enough to bring it up in this situation talking to their mother. 

Sam "needed this because he needed to redeem himself"? I don't think Sam needs to be yet again "rewarded" for his mistakes by having people follow along with his plan(see Season 5 for an example).  A good start to redemption would be letting an uninjured Dean(because there really was no need for Dean to be injured except as an excuse to keep him out of the raid) lead the raid while Sam stayed home and helped Mom, the other screw up who trusted the British men of letters over Dean's word and opinion.  But I guess it's as out of character for Sam to show any humility as it is for Dean to put his pain in terms of himself and what was done to him. And the writers can't have them showing any character development or growth apparently.

Let Dean, the guy they refused to believe about the BMOLs  being bad news, lead the raid against them and let them figure out their own stuff in Mary's head and hey maybe even bring some attention to Dean's suffering and pain all these years - Sam talking about all that Dean has done for him, sacrificed for and how much it cost Dean to be both father and mother to him, and instead of Dean talking about what a failure he was at it, have Sam saying "It wasn't fair and sometimes it cost him everything but he always put me first" - IMO that would have been much better than yet another example of how Dean can't see himself at all for Sam standing in his way.   

I think it could have worked that way and I absolutely wouldn't have minded that either.  I loved the scene in Mary's head and thought it was the best in the episode.  Better than the raid.  Honestly though,  I thought both brothers showed heroic moments in this episode so I really don't understand the complaints.

Dean coming up with the idea to use the grenade launcher and blasting through the bunker was awesome.  Dean taking on Ketch with an injured leg and besting him in a physical fight.  Sam leading the hunters. Heck even Jodie and Mary had their moments.  I thought this episode was evened out.  As a Sam, I would have no problem if they reversed Sam and Deans roles in this episode.  I actually liked Dean's part a lot more so.....  Granted I don't mind that Dean got the better part in who we are either 

[CluelessDrifter]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As a Sam, I would have no problem if they reversed Sam and Deans roles in this episode.  I actually liked Dean's part a lot more so.....  Granted I don't mind that Dean got the better part in who we are either 

It's funny, because as a Dean fan, I would've had a major problem with it if they'd reversed roles, because I too liked Dean's role much better than the raid on the BMoL.  In fact, the only thing that really stood out to me about the raid was Jody being a badass throughout.  The rest of it was pretty dull.

[Reganne]

20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

But except for Jessica, all of the stuff Dean listed for Sam was a result of Sam's decisions as a grown man as well.   Mary didn't condemn 6 month old Sam to Hell and Sam didn't end up in Hell because of the deal with the YED at least not anymore than Dean ended up in Hell because of Mary's deal with the YED.(don't know why I still prefer to call him YED than Azazel lol).  Jessica is the only thing that happened to Sam, among the things Dean listed, which was a direct result of Mary's deal, the only thing Sam had no control over.  Everything else was a result of Sam's own adult free willed choices the same as Dean's deal.

Do you think the angels and demons would have left Sam alone to live his life if Sam didn't fall for the manipulation and thought he was stopping the appacolypse?  Sam was surrounded by demons all his life.  They would have never rested until they got from him what they wanted.  One way or another.  When Sam refused to lead the demon army, they manipulated him into believing he was saving the world.

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

It's funny, because as a Dean fan, I would've had a major problem with it if they'd reversed roles, because I too liked Dean's role much better than the raid on the BMoL.  In fact, the only thing that really stood out to me about the raid was Jody being a badass throughout.  The rest of it was pretty dull.

Pretty much.  It was actually Jodi who had the best parts of the raid and I'm still not complaining.   Jodi rocks.

[catrox14]

So I was just thinking, if that was OUR!Cas that was with the boys in the AU when he met Alt!Bobby wouldn't he have just said 'NO! Don't shoot him. That's another Bobby!' I mean Cas knew Bobby. IMO he wouldn't have said "You!" when Bobby saved him. I think he would have said 'Bobby??!!' So why have that kind of dialogue for OUR!Cas aside from the gotcha nonsense.  So that feels like it's more points for AU!Cas being dead.

BUT I kind of have a new theory that if it IS OUR!Cas, then something happened to him every time he went through the portal. Like maybe it made him forget who he was, like he can't kill Lucifer with an angel blade or he couldn't remember Bobby.  Of course, that also implies Sam and Dean going back and forth through the portal should have altered them in some way as well.

So I dunno, I'm still like  98% sure it's still AU!Cas that died. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by catrox14

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

 

Quote

ike, if John was protecting Dean from monsters more or less successfully, what was he not protecting him from? I can think of options, but it would be interesting to know what Dean is supposed to be thinking there. Like, is he thinking, from responsibilities? From growing up too fast? From John himself? Regardless, it seems like he's thinking of regular-world stuff, not monster stuff, there. And Sam actually was (ostensibly) brought up by John as much as Dean was, so what does Dean mean about being both father and mother to him? Again, I can think of reasons that *I* would say Dean was a father to Sam, but my interest is really piqued as to why Dean himself would choose to say that.

From everything else.  John started leaving Dean alone to watch out for Sam for days at a time before he was 9 years old(Something Wicked, where it was presented as pretty much old hat), for more than a couple weeks by the time he was 12(that Christmas episode whose name I can't remember at the moment:)) and before he was 18 over a month at a time(that other episode whose name I can't recall which involved high school, Dean was actually older by then but it was presented as something that had been going on for a long time and John was supposed to be gone about 6 weeks, I think).  There was also the episode where Dean got thrown into a halfway house because he got caught stealing because they were almost out of money and John wasn't around, he was 16 there I think?

If John is basically leaving the job of the day to day caretaking to Dean which he pretty clearly was, I'm pretty sure Dean knows protecting them from monsters isn't the be all end all to being a father(and  given John trained them he was actually probably leaving a good deal of "protecting them from monsters" to THEMSELVES, particularly Dean, that's basically what Something Wicked was about, he expected 9 year old Dean to be the protector, interestingly Sam didn't even know about monsters until he was 8 and that was only because he snooped around and found out, John wanted to protect him from that, but he didn't want to protect Dean from it, because if he protected Dean from it, he wouldn't have a little soldier in his war and he wouldn't be able to leave them for days and later weeks at a time, Dean was sacrificed on the alter of John's revenge quest).  

So he can say he was father and mother to Sam because for all intents and purposes he was and he realizes that.  I think it's pretty clear he feels he lost not just his mother but his father when Mary died.  Mary was literally dead and John was just a shell.  He was left with a stranger who did the absolute bare minimum and often not even that.

 

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Well, sort of. There was a LOT of manipulation involved, on the part of both hell and heaven. So, while it is true in the final analysis Sam made his choice, the odds were seriously stacked against him.

They weren't stacked against him, imo, not after Season 2. His demon blood didn't cause him to drink demon blood either, his free will did.  Ruby offered him demon crack in a supposedly sexy package and he chose to smoke it.

As for the rest that was a result of things that affected Dean and Sam equally because most of the rest since then has been a result of the fact that they were vessels were Michael and Lucifer and not anything to do with Azazel's demon blood.  Now if Mary hadn't saved John and had kids with him, neither of them would be born and they wouldn't be vessels for Michael and Lucifer so in that sense it affected Dean and Sam equally and if Sam made stupider choices than Dean in some of those situations that's on him, it's not because Azazel dripping blood into his mouth stacked any odds against him.  

How did Mary's deal with Azazel have anything to do with Heaven and how did Heaven in any way manipulate Sam prior to Dean going to Hell and coming back?  I don't recall heaven having involvement with manipulations until then beyond making sure John and Mary got together so BOTH Dean and Sam would be born to be vessels for Michael and Lucifer.  So only Azazel specifically and his minions, not even all of Hell, not everyone in Hell wanted this, remember back then a lot of the demons didn't even really believe in Lucifer because almost no demons were still around who had actually seen him.  Azazel was sort of like a cult leader in Hell, he led the Lucifer cult. :) 

Do you think they would have left Dean alone?  He was Michael's vessel as much as Sam was Lucifer's.  Dean was part of Heaven's plans as well and Dean was manipulated by both Heaven and Hell too, Heaven only got involved with Sam after they got involved with Dean - Hell tried to manipulate him in an attempt to get him to go to Hell by promising to break out John if he chose to go in his place because they obviously realized John wasn't the Winchester they were looking for:), which Dean didn't fall for and then once he was in Hell after he made a deal for Sam, they put Hell's most sadistic head torturer on him to make sure he broke as soon possible so the first Seal would be broken and then Heaven tried to manipulate him after getting him out.  That isn't because of Sam, that's because of Mary's deal which saved John's life and allowed them to have children who would be the perfect vessels of God's two oldest sons.  

Ultimately in the timeline Heaven made sure to get Mary and John together so Dean and Sam would be born, John was then killed by a demon and then saved by a demon deal - Heaven's manipulations came first, in getting John and Mary together, and Dean was as much a part of that as Sam was.  In a way one could even say the Azazel's demon blood was just "collateral damage" to making sure both Dean and Sam were born.

The fact is Dean and Sam would have been part of this...struggle... whether Mary made a deal or not(in the sense that John had never been killed for example), because Heaven went through the trouble of making sure John and Mary got together to make sure Dean and Sam would be born, they didn't do that for giggles but because they had a 'plan' for them - but her deal did have consequences, most of which were not supernatural in nature but which were every bit as damaging none the less.  

Edited May 22, 2017 by tessathereaper

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

 

 

They weren't stacked against him, imo, not after Season 2. His demon blood didn't cause him to drink demon blood either, his free will did.  Ruby offered him demon crack in a supposedly sexy package and he chose to smoke it.

As for the rest that was a result of things that affected Dean and Sam equally because most of the rest since then has been a result of the fact that they were vessels were Michael and Lucifer and not anything to do with Azazel's demon blood.  Now if Mary hadn't saved John and had kids with him, neither of them would be born and they wouldn't be vessels for Michael and Lucifer so in that sense it affected Dean and Sam equally and if Sam made stupider choices than Dean in some of those situations that's on him, it's not because Azazel dripping blood into his mouth stacked any odds against him.  

How did Mary's deal with Azazel have anything to do with Heaven and how did Heaven in any way manipulate Sam prior to Dean going to Hell and coming back?  I don't recall heaven having involvement with manipulations until then beyond making sure John and Mary got together so BOTH Dean and Sam would be born to be vessels for Michael and Lucifer.  So only Azazel specifically and his minions, not even all of Hell, not everyone in Hell wanted this, remember back then a lot of the demons didn't even really believe in Lucifer because almost no demons were still around who had actually seen him.  Azazel was sort of like a cult leader in Hell, he led the Lucifer cult. :) 

Do you think they would have left Dean alone?  He was Michael's vessel as much as Sam was Lucifer's.  Dean was part of Heaven's plans as well and Dean was manipulated by both Heaven and Hell too, Heaven only got involved with Sam after they got involved with Dean - Hell tried to manipulate him in an attempt to get him to go to Hell by promising to break out John if he chose to go in his place because they obviously realized John wasn't the Winchester they were looking for:), which Dean didn't fall for and then once he was in Hell after he made a deal for Sam, they put Hell's most sadistic head torturer on him to make sure he broke as soon possible so the first Seal would be broken and then Heaven tried to manipulate him after getting him out.  That isn't because of Sam, that's because of Mary's deal which saved John's life and allowed them to have children who would be the perfect vessels of God's two oldest sons.  

In fact one could even say that one of the reasons fate, if you will, had for Mary's deal was to make sure that BOTH Dean and Sam would be born, and Azazel's demon blood was just "collateral damage" to all that.  Ultimately in the timeline Heaven made sure to get Mary and John together so Dean and Sam would be born, John was then killed by a demon and then saved by a demon deal - Heaven's manipulations came first, in getting John and Mary together, and Dean was as much a part of that as Sam was.

That is very well laid out. Thanks!

[Casseiopeia]

On 5/19/2017 at 8:00 PM, catrox14 said:

Dean used the Grenade Launcher to get out and reset everything. They got out like they normally did once he reset everything.

How did Dean get the Grenade Launcher out of the trunk of the Impala?  And why did it take him 3 days to remember it?  When Ketch first entombed them that was my first thought.  But then when Toni said the garage was sealed I thought ok there goes the Grenade Launcher.  But no I was right the first time.