S04.E04: Oathkeeper

[DigitalCount]

 Okay, I'm really off. Because I thought the OP was referring to Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn).

I went through that exact line of characters (Ygritte, Mel) before settling on Cat myself, particularly because she's been both sides of that coin. But now that I think of it, "eyes of fire" describes Mel better than any other onscreen character.

 

After this episode and the way Jaime and Cersei speak with one another, I'm mostly okay with just mentally filing The Scene last episode as not rape, but Jaime should still not have put Cersei in that position and they shouldn't have written out Cersei's "yes." Despite my disgust, based on something someone said I watched part of it again, and you can see Cersei pull Jaime's face closer; by the time they're on the floor, her boots are around at Jaime's back, meaning she did indeed wrap her legs around him. What I take issue with is the irresponsibility of portraying a person having sex saying no while taking actions that imply a yes. I mean, in that position, with a hold on him like that, it'd be incredibly difficult for Jaime to actually comply with Cersei's request to stop, so even if he had wanted to it would have been hard. I understand this.

 

But the writers control every aspect of what happens on the screen, and just like the Smallville writers didn't need to have Superman burning a pair of identical towers in the middle of the biggest city in DC-USA until they collapsed, these guys did not need to set up a scene where LH was directed to wrap her legs around NCW while saying "no, it's not right." This doesn't even really touch the issue of Jaime essentially "working a yes out," which kind of falls under rape anyway. Poor planning, poor writing, or poor directing; pick two.

[WearyTraveler]

Where in the books is there anything about the Night King?  I don't remember reading anything about him.

 

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 56, Bran.  Or you could read this handy summary from ASOIF wikihttp://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night's_King

 

It's interesting that Old Nan hinted his name was also Brandon and that the wilding king at the time was Joramun, presumably the same one with the horn that could topple the wall.

 

Edited May 1, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[mac123x]

I just read on the TVtropes recap page that HBO has changed the name from Night King to Another White Walker, so maybe it's not the guy from Bran & Nan's story.  Probably someone who was vaguely familiar with the books came up with that credit, then someone else who knew better corrected it.

 

Who the hell knows at this point.

[elzin]

I just read on the TVtropes recap page that HBO has changed the name from Night King to Another White Walker, so maybe it's not the guy from Bran & Nan's story.  Probably someone who was vaguely familiar with the books came up with that credit, then someone else who knew better corrected it.

 

Who the hell knows at this point.

I think that someone who didn't know better grabbed a likely sounding title from the universe in-general and didn't understand the implications.  The Night King was human, and that...thing was clearly not. Humanoid, yes, but human? No.  True, in this world of magic it could have once been human, but it seems like only babies can be turned. Otherwise, why are there wights? 

[Andeleisha]

When I read the books, for some reason I had this misconception that the "Others" and the "White Walkers" were different things, and that the White Walkers were the same thing as wights. I thought the Others were supposed to be supernatural creatures of ice. I guess I just didn't read too carefully (I'm a fast reader, and like many people here I skip over the boring North of the Wall chapters on re-reads). The show really confused me because I was expecting the White Walkers not to look human: I honestly can't tell the difference on the show between the dead corpses and whatever is supposed to be a White Walker. 

 

It wasn't until a few weeks ago that a friend set me straight (confirmed by ASOIAF wiki), but now last week's episode has me all confused again. As another commenter noted, that thing at the end clearly wasn't human, not even a dead human. Is the TV show introducing a new foe, or has everything we've seen so far been wights, and it's only now that they are introducing the real White Walkers? Was that guy just a special kind of White Walker, maybe because he's the king? 

[Hanahope]

Well, it appears that the "White Walkers" in the show are the same thing as "the Others" in the books (name changed because you can't see capitalization in a TV show), i.e. a sortof different 'race' or people, to some extent like how the Targaryans are different from the Starks, but more supernaturally (although it appears that some Targs have their own powers - like Dany has shown).  The WW/Others kill people, who then rise as wights.  The WW/Others appear to have some special powers to create others like them and have much longer lifespans/plus maybe fast growth, or perhaps the one we saw is like a priest of the WW god (like Melisandre).  It also appears like they aren't really "dead", but not quite the same "alive" like other humans. 

[Haldebrandt]

Well, it appears that the "White Walkers" in the show are the same thing as "the Others" in the books (name changed because you can't see capitalization in a TV show),  

 

Not sure if you're joking, but I've always thought the name was changed because of LOST, which also featured a set of mysterious and powerful (and possibly mystical) enemies called the Others for a while.  (LOST was at its peak as a show and cultural phenom during the creation of GOT).

 

In retrospect, maybe they should have kept the name.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[mac123x]

Not sure if you're joking, but I've always thought the name was changed because of LOST, which also featured a set of mysterious and powerful (and possibly mystical) enemies called the Others for a while.  (LOST was at its peak as a show and cultural phenom during the creation of GOT).

 

In retrospect, maybe they should have kept the name.

 

No joke, the producrers have actually said that. 

 

I think they should have kept the name, it's not really that confusing; you just have the actors say "others" with a tone of dread and the audience will figure out from that and the context of the conversation they're referring to the Others.

 

Alternatively, if they still felt they had to change the name, they should have picked something other than White Walkers, because "White" and "wight" sound too similar, particularly with the Starks' and the Wildlings' Oop North accent.

 

I kind of liked the scene with the ice-ice baby; it added a level of creepiness to the White Walkers that isn't in the books.  I used to think they were just a malevolent force that wanted to kill humans, but now they want to kill humans and assimilate children. 

 

It's funny that the WW have had more screen time on the show than in the books.  As far as I can remember, the only one we've seen in the books is the one Sam shivved.

Edited May 2, 2014 by mac123x

[purplemouth]

 

"White" and "wight" sound too similar, particularly with the Starks' and the Wildlings' Oop North accent.

This is probably off topic, but now I'm wondering how on earth (err...Westeros?) would you pronounce "wight" if not like "white"? Is it my Pittsburghese coming out that makes them sound not similar, but identical? 

[joliefaire]

^  Nope, its not your Pittsburghese (nor my Chicagoese!).  They are pronounced identically.

[Independent George]

Maybe it's all in how you pronounce white.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Independent George

[joliefaire]

Maybe it's all in how you pronounce white.

hahahaha, now I'll have to say it like that every time I look at a tub of Cool Whip!

[Meredith Quill]

The only time (I can think of) in my native British English where a, slight, difference could be heard is in RP, but apart from The Queen (& older royals/courtiers/black & white BBC newsreels etc) who uses RP nowadays?

 

Considering that in Westeros, the 'common tongue' appears to be the english language spoken mostly by, so far on the show, those with regional British accents I think it's perfectly understandable (yes, confusing perhaps) that those words should sound exactly the same.

[mac123x]

Dictionary.com's pronunciation:  white = [hwahyt, wahyt], wight = [wahyt]

 

So I guess it's regional.  I definitely pronounce them differently (though it's not a huge difference).

[Meredith Quill]

Oxford English Dictionary:

 

White = Pronunciation: /wʌɪt

Wight = Pronunciation: /wʌɪt

 

Both sound exactly the same according to OED but as I said above, in RP White is slightly different to Wight. Interesting to note that the origin of the word wight is: Old English wiht 'thing, creature', of Germanic origin; related to Dutch wicht 'little child' and German Wicht 'creature'.

[Gudzilla]

My Davos dictionary says  Wight = wig git 

[Meredith Quill]

My Davos dictionary says  Wight = wig git 

LOL :D

[GreyBunny]

I say white and wight a bit differently - I use a hard w on wight and a slight h sound on white.  

 

However, I say "whip" as "wip."

 

No idea if any of that conforms to Pacific Northwest English, which is my dialect.

 

 

My Davos dictionary says  Wight = wig git

 

Heh!  I bet that's correct, too.

Edited May 3, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Haleth]

My Davos dictionary says  Wight = wig git

 

Best post I've seen all day.  Big thumbs up.

[Holmbo]

A late post because I've been catching up on the show.
 

Was I the only one wryly amused when Locke was giving that fake story to Jon and he said he chose coming to the wall rather than losing a hand?  From the guy who cut off Jaime's hand, that can only be seen as ironic.  Heh.

Did you notice how they had a shot of just their hands when they where shaking hands? They did that with Jaime and Jon in the second episode of the first season. Makes me think that it was either a reminder that Locke cut of Jaimes hand or it foreshadowing that Locke too will loose his hand.

 

So I totally believe a guy who can push a kid out a window, then make an emotional connection with a very unlikely woman that drives him to save her life, then kill his cousin, then confess to saving thousands of people, then raping his sister.  I think all those things can be held in tension with each other in a character.  Even if they are trying to give Jaime a redemption arc, no true redemption is that simple.  It's not all a straight line forward from evil to good; there is surely backsliding along the way.

I like this interpretation. I don't think we need to slot every character into good or bad categories.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Holmbo

[John Potts]

While I wasn't particularly a fan of Greyworm/Missendei, I floved the way Danny & Baristan were blatantly shipping them!

Classic Bronn going, "What are you waiting for, a kiss?" when he handed Pod the axe. And good on Tyrion for getting Pod out of the capital - he knows he's a loyal kid and will be in danger if he stays in King's Landing.

Liked John Snow getting to lead an attack on Craster's Keep, and that he got support for pointing out that the deserters were a liability to the defence of Castle Black. Who knows, he might make Lord Commander one day...

Was really surprised at Locke's appearance, then I remembered Ramsay/Roose sending him to the Wall as a scout on their behalf.

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 5:18 AM, Alapaki said:

neither Jaime nor Cersei were acting like what happened in the Sept was rape.  I guess all that confirms is that the show runners/writers/directors didn't see it that way.

Well, she was pissed at Jamie, so she wasn't exactly OK with him, though that seemed more that he wasn't on the "Tyrion needs to DIE!" train.

(Though to be clear,  what was shown WAS a rape scene, whatever TPTB intended)

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 3:22 AM, Dougal said:

it was 4,000 years between the peace and when the walkers showed up. They do seem to take their time, but that's a long time.

And folk were complaining that the White Walker army marching on the Wall at the end of Season 2 were slow!

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 5:48 AM, Haldebrandt said:

So how did the baby survive the presumably lengthy trip to WW homeland?  Oh never mind just go with it.

Magic? He got the "Eye blue-ing" treatment, so he's presumably at least part White Walker/Other/whatever now. What I was surprised at was that the baby survived that long - he was barely covered in sub zero temperatures.

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 5:39 PM, mac123x said:

Okay, maybe she didn't think it was actually magical, but she did buy that it'd somehow help her escape.

I don't blame Sansa. Plenty of people cross their fingers, read horoscopes or try to catch the bouquet at weddings - it doesn't mean they believe it actually has any real effect. Sansa probably believes she needs all the luck she can get.

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 7:12 PM, matilda76 said:

this Meereen stuff is really tedious.

And people were complaining it wasn't like the books!

[FemmyV]

I'm doing a rewatch and the question occurred to me: do WWs go straight from Ice Baby to Ice Grandaddy? There don't seem to be any juveniles.

 

Silly I know ...

[John Potts]

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 7:48 AM, FemmyV said:

do WWs go straight from Ice Baby to Ice Grandaddy? There don't seem to be any juveniles

They do have children. The Pilot showed a WW girl (who killed Waymar Royce).

I did think that the last scene of the entire show should have been for the camera to pan North from Kings Landing into the Far North where we see a Blue Eyed child lying down to sleep on the altar where they were converted. It would suitably bookend the way the Series with the White Walkers and emphasize how while the threat might be resolved today, they need to keep alert in case it returned.

Spoiler

Though it would require a re-write of how killing the Night King destroyed ALL the White Walkers.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by John Potts