S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

[companionenvy]

That may be logically true, Katy M, but I agree with Catrox that the show was playing it as Ketch purposely exploiting her deafness. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

So, that we could experience it as she was experiencing it.  I'm curious as to what you thought she was going to do if she COULD hear it.  Show me any other occasions in this show where the person being chased by the Hell hound could outrun it.  Like someone else said, she doesn't have the demon killing knife, or the colt, we didn't see an angel blade or a rock salt fileld shotgun (which would have only done so much good anyway). Hearing the sucker was not going to help her that much, if at all.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. My point isn't whether she even would have killed it or not or that she would survive. My point is  that Eileen was an experienced Hunter and a Legacy . The manner in which she was killed did not even show her fighting back other than shooting randomly. That freaking civilian in the hellhound ep was able to swing a cooler randomly and slow it down.

I'm not looking for concurrence here just saying that I think the way they killed Eileen was sexist, boring ,offensive and insulting to the character. They could have done it so many other less offensive ways.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, you are correct that Eileen was "fridged." Which is what I think your outrage is really about. She died for man pain and died in a rather pitiful way too boot. Eileen was dead regardless if she was deaf or not, but it would've nice if they'd found a better twist on it. I think it could've been cool if she could hear the hellhounds or something like that. I only ask that if you must kill a character, do it well. I'm not sure they needed to kill Eileen, though, but what do I know?

Actually, my outrage is both things equally. They used the trope of a disabled person having their disability  used specifically against them and to terrorize them. Why didn't Ketch just send a pack of rabid dogs after her if all he wanted to do was have her mauled to death to make it look like some random animal killed her? 

Why would he choose an invisible hellhound other than for the sport of terrorizing the deaf Hunter?

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, my outrage is both things equally. They used the trope of a disabled person having their disability  used specifically against them and to terrorize them. Why didn't Ketch just send a pack of rabid dogs after her if all he wanted to do was have her mauled to death to make it look like some random animal killed her? 

Why would he choose an invisible hellhound other than for the sport of terrorizing the deaf Hunter?

Eileen wouldn't have been able to hear a pack of dogs either. I'd guess Ketch chose a hellhound over a regular pack of dogs because a hellhound would be terrifying to any one, I'd think. I fail to see how her being deaf makes it any more terrifying than it would for anyone else.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Eileen wouldn't have been able to hear a pack of dogs either. I'd guess Ketch chose a hellhound over a regular pack of dogs because a hellhound would be terrifying to any one, I'd think. I fail to see how her being deaf makes it any more terrifying than it would for anyone else.

Of course , she would not have been able to hear a pack of dogs but she could see  them. She could have seen where to shoot. 

Since it seems since the person being pursued by a hellbound can hear them, even though they cant see them, they can at least shoot in the general direction they heard the sound. Eileen could not see them nor hear them. IMO, the only reason she got as far as she did is that Ketch gave her a hard start. He is a psychopath after all.

[Geordiegirl1967]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I fail to see how her being deaf makes it any more terrifying than it would for anyone else.

I fail to see how that scene even worked. Hellhounds are invisible and only audible to those they are hunting. As Eileen was deaf she could neither hear nor see it so how did she even know to run? In reality it would have just walked up to her and killed her.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Of course , she would not have been able to hear a pack of dogs but she could see  them. She could have seen where to shoot. 

Since it seems since the person being pursued by a hellbound can hear them, even though they cant see them, they can at least shoot in the general direction they heard the sound. Eileen could not see them nor hear them. IMO, the only reason she got as far as she did is that Ketch gave her a hard start. He is a psychopath after all.

Thinking on it further, I wonder if the hound was actually invisible to Eileen? I mean, she was the intended victim, so, in theory she should've been able to see it. Maybe the entire scene wasn't seen through Eileen's POV, but Ketch's? That would account for why the sound was dropped and for how Eileen knew where to shoot and run.

Edited May 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I fail to see how that scene even worked. Hellhounds are invisible and only audible to those they are hunting. As Eileen was deaf she could neither hear nor see it so how did she even know to run? In reality it would have just walked up to her and killed her.

That's why I think Ketch had kidnapped her, and then sent her off like a fox for his hound to hunt down. It was never a fair fight at all.  He did it because he could.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I fail to see how that scene even worked. Hellhounds are invisible and only audible to those they are hunting. As Eileen was deaf she could neither hear nor see it so how did she even know to run? In reality it would have just walked up to her and killed her.

Bingo. The only possible explanation is that any human being targeted by a Hellhound can hear its bark in their 'soul' as opposed to their ears. But there is no precedent for this and without any kind of exposition, there's no reason for us to assume this. IMO the only point of using a Hellhound was to support this newly revealed connection between Crowley and the BDoL.  (British Douchebags of Letters)

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Thinking on it further, I wonder if the hound was actually invisible to Eileen? I mean, she was the intended victim, so, in theory she should've been able to see it. Maybe the entire scene wasn't seen through Eileen's POV, but Ketch's? That would account for why the sound was dropped and for how Eileen knew where to shoot and run.

AFAIK, hellhounds can only be seen by the victim who is close to death or through the special glasses. Eileen shouldn't have been able to see or hear them at all, maybe see them right before she actually died after they were mauling her.

This is the entire problem with the retcon/'reinvention" of hellhound lore. 

In s2, it was only those who had made a crossroads deal that could hear and MAYBE see them. That's not completely clear. But they might see them at their actual moment of death.

Dean could definitely hear them, and probably saw it before he died. MY headcanon is that Dean has always been able to hear them post Hell because is the only person ever to come back from Hell as a living human. I think that Demon!Dean should have been able to see and hear them as well.

But then with FuckLemming in s9, it seemed that both Dean and Sam could hear them when Juliette was guarding the cemetery where the FB was hidden, or it was just Dean and Sam was following Dean's lead. I'm not sure on that one.

Then in s11, Dean seemed to be able to hear them with Gunnar but Sam didn't.

And now is s12, we have the escaped rogue ALPHA hellhound that was going after people that didn't have demon deals but was heard by the chick and maybe even by Dean which is why he knew where to aim and shoot it as it was going out of the window. But that wasn't clear to me either.  And now it's even further muddied that somehow Ketch, who has not been revealed to be a demon, has some kind of magical dog whistle that he can control an invisible hellhound.

All that said, I don't think Eileen could see them at all given her wildly shooting in the wrong direction.

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bingo. The only possible explanation is that any human being targeted by a Hellhound can hear its bark in their 'soul' as opposed to their ears.

I can buy a person that sold their soul, would 'hear'/sense the hellhound presence, but why would anyone who didn't sell their soul feel it when the hellhound isn't after their soul, like with Eileen or the gal earlier this season. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AFAIK, hellhounds can only be seen by the victim who is close to death or through the special glasses. Eileen shouldn't have been able to see or hear them at all, maybe see them right before she actually died after they were mauling her.

Was Eileen any closer to death than Dean was at the end of S3? They both had targets put on them for the hellhounds to chase down. Maybe that's what allows people to be able to see them?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Was Eileen any closer to death than Dean was at the end of S3? They both had targets put on them for the hellhounds to chase down. Maybe that's what allows people to be able to see them?

Assuming it's the soul that allows the person to "see" or actually see a Hellhound, then I presume it's a result of them having sold their soul, which is what the Hellhound is coming to get via horrible death.

So in Dean's case, he started glimpsing the B side, piercing the Veil because the hour of his deal was approaching. That's why he could see demon faces as the hour grew near. I figured Dean could hear them before he could see them which I presumed wasn't until they literally were upon him and sinking their teeth and claws into him to get his soul and drag it to Hell.

I'm not convinced that Eileen should have been able to see them at all even upon her death because they were not after her soul, AFAIK. 

[Katy M]

I've actually been annoyed with Hell Hounds since Abandon All Hope.  IIRC that was the first time they were used in any capacity besides going after those that had sold their souls.  I dont' think that should have ever happened.  But, maybe that's just me.  It does beg the question of why any demon would go out and do their own killing when they could just send an invisible huge hound to do it.

I also thought all 4 of them could hear the hounds, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[rue721]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I will add, since you brought it up, though, that I've never thought hunting was a great idea for a Deaf person the moment she was introduced.  Especially without a partner.  There is a reason there are no Deaf cops, firefighters, or soldiers.

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, what was Eileen supposed to do, if she felt called to hunt? And IMO it's understandable if she felt as called to hunt -- and try to save/protect people -- as much as any other hunter we've seen. She was going to have to play the hand she was dealt.

I actually like that she just tried her best regardless that nobody would think that a petite, Deaf woman would be the ~ideal~ hunter.

But then, I also liked that Bobby kept at it after he was paralyzed. Yeah it was nuts, but it's pretty cool, too. YMMV.

I really wish, though, that we had seen more of Eileen playing to her specific strengths and compensating for her specific weaknesses...but I feel that way about all the hunters. I wish we would see more of Dean taking advantage of his mechanical skills, Mary having to take into account that she's relatively small and weak physically (although I think they touched on this with her reliance on the BMOL's tech), etc. That kind of thing is interesting to me. But YMMV.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

hear what you're saying, but at the same time, what was Eileen supposed to do, if she felt called to hunt? And IMO it's understandable if she felt as called to hunt -- and try to save/protect people -- as much as any other hunter we've seen. She was going to have to play the hand she was dealt.

I actually like that she just tried her best regardless that nobody would think that a petite, Deaf woman would be the ~ideal~ hunter.

I would have felt better about it if she had a regular partner.  I actually don't understand all these minor characters that hunt alone all the time.  It just doesn't seem like a good idea.  Even if you're going up against a single monster, it is usually stronger than you, with powers.  It's ridiculous, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I would have felt better about it if she had a regular partner.  I actually don't understand all these minor characters that hunt alone all the time.  It just doesn't seem like a good idea.  Even if you're going up against a single monster, it is usually stronger than you, with powers.  It's ridiculous, IMO.

I wonder how long Eileen had been hunting on her own. She was raised by a hunter, so presumably, she hunted with whoever that was at one time. Was it ever stated how long she'd been hunting alone?

I think it's ideal if someone can find a partner they work well with, but not everyone is going to be able to find a suitable partner. I can't really fault her for for trying to do the job anyway.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I would have felt better about it if she had a regular partner.  I actually don't understand all these minor characters that hunt alone all the time.  It just doesn't seem like a good idea.  Even if you're going up against a single monster, it is usually stronger than you, with powers.  It's ridiculous, IMO.

Dean hunted alone quite a lot when he was in his mid twenties.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wonder how long Eileen had been hunting on her own. She was raised by a hunter, so presumably, she hunted with whoever that was at one time. Was it ever stated how long she'd been hunting alone?

I think she said it had been a few years since the woman had died, but I'm not sure about that.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean hunted alone quite a lot when he was in his mid twenties.

We only know for a fact that he worked one case alone before hooking up with Sam in Pilot.  Then, he worked the Scarecrow case alone and look at how that turned out, because hunting alone not good.  And, in Exile on Main Street, he didn't look too pleased when he thought Sam had been hunting alone. 

IMO, all this to me is proof that Sam and Dean are smart.  They don't generally hunt alone because it's stupid.  It's worse than swimming alone, or even regular hunting alone.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think she said it had been a few years since the woman had died, but I'm not sure about that.

We only know for a fact that he worked one case alone before hooking up with Sam in Pilot.  Then, he worked the Scarecrow case alone and look at how that turned out, because hunting alone not good.  And, in Exile on Main Street, he didn't look too pleased when he thought Sam had been hunting alone. 

IMO, all this to me is proof that Sam and Dean are smart.  They don't generally hunt alone because it's stupid.  It's worse than swimming alone, or even regular hunting alone.

It's always interesting to me how viewers all take things so differently.

I don't see those as outliers but more indicative of a fairly regular occurrence for Dean in his early to mid 20's. Dean was like 24 or 25, hunting alone when he killed Cole's father who had become a monster. That was a nightmare for Cole but Dean saved Cole's life whether Cole knew it or not.

Sam and Dean IMO are different because they grew up hunting together, taught by John who had become arguably the best hunter at the time.  They know each others' tactics and procedure which theoretically gives them an advantage but it doesn't guarantee success or lack of problems.  Look what happened when they went on the hunt in Asylum. Sam would have killed Dean if Dean hadn't taken the bullets out of his gun. Was Dean being there better or worse? I don't know.  

Or even this season, Dean went missing for hours, in American Nightmare but Sam managed to get out of the situation because he was able to get through to Magda to stop her from killing her mother. Dean's presence was irrelevant to the outcome. Look what happened with Asa Fox and his partner, who accidentally killed him because they were arguing, and then covered it up. 

I don't think hunting with a partner is inherently better or worse than hunting solo in general and IMO it doesn't make Sam and Dean any smarter or more stupid if they hunt solo or together.

[ahrtee]

I think hunting alone or with a partner is a question of personality, needs and choice.  Everyone had to be trained to hunt (even Bobby started out with Rufus as his mentor) but where they go from there depends on personal preference.  There were people like John or Rufus who either preferred to work alone or were obnoxious enough that no one wanted to work with them.  And there were others (like Garth, I assume) who enjoyed company, or Ellen who hunted with Jo in order to keep an eye on her.  

Sam and Dean were trained from childhood to work with a partner, which meant that they always knew they had someone they trusted to watch their backs. It's a different kind of hunting than solo.  It doesn't mean that they can't work alone, just that it's probably more comfortable for them to be with someone they like and trust, even just to share jokes and bounce ideas off of.   Dean hunted alone, but also worked with others (like Garth, and the guy from Brooklyn from Sin City, just to mention a few) when Sam wasn't available.  Not that he couldn't do the job, just that he was more comfortable with a partner. Even Soulless Sam didn't hunt alone, though I'm sure he very easily could have.

But even those hunters who wanted to be left alone would call on others for help when needed--when a hunt was too complicated or too big for one person alone.  And they trusted that other hunters would always help when asked.  

The point is that good hunters should know when they can't do something on their own and be willing to ask for help.

Which brings me to Eileen, because we knew *so little* about her.   Was she trained to work alone or thrown into it when her mentor died?  Was she trying to overcompensate/prove  that she could handle herself and therefore was less willing to ask for help when she needed it?  Or was she really just a very good hunter who tended to stick with hunts she knew she could handle by herself?  Because I would think that she would recognize that there are certain situations where she would be at a disadvantage, and it would be helpful to have someone as backup.  That's being practical, not considering it a weakness.  

I was under the impression that she'd spent most of her life tracking the banshee that killed her parents.  In that situation, her deafness would actually be a benefit and give her an advantage.  So she could have specialized in hunts where sounds were dangerous (there were other hunters who specialized, like Elkins and Gordon), and worked with a partner (or asked for help) with other hunts.  Or she could have been "hero support" (with occasional hunts) like Bobby:  not answering phones for phony alibis, but researching and coordinating.  

I honestly have no feelings about Eileen at all, because I never felt we got to know her.  They gave us a cardboard cutout of a hunter and then made her deaf to make her different and give us something to root for.  I liked her interactions with Mildred in Into the Mystic (and she showed a nice sense of humor) but that was the only glimpse into her character other than "deaf hunter/possible love interest for Sam."  Yes, the fact that she had overcome so much in order to become a hunter implied that she was very strong, but they didn't really show it.  There was a lot of potential there to make her into a real person instead of either a superhero or victim, but they blew it.  And I was annoyed that they fridged her so unnecessarily, but I don't really miss her.  (TBH, I didn't even recognize her in the hellhound chase scene, so I didn't know who it was until Jody's call, which kind of lost the shock value for me.)  

I know not caring about Eileen is a big fat UO, so I'll be hiding in the corner to avoid any bricks heading in my direction...

Edited May 16, 2017 by ahrtee
because I can't seem to ignore typos when I see them.

[DittyDotDot]

55 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I know not caring about Eileen is a big fat UO, so I'll be hiding in the corner to avoid any bricks heading in my direction...

Not at all. I felt pretty much the same as you, except I knew it was her in the teaser. I didn't know her well enough to miss her. I was disappointed they went back to the fridging well, though.

Now Wally, still pissed over that one. ;)

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

The "no sound" could have been a director's choice.  

Be that as it may, these choices are not made in a vacuum. Either the writer,, the director, or the editors at the behest of the producers who get the final edit wanted it there to tell us something about the characters and/or the entire story arc. The question is what was it intended to tell us.

[rue721]

I agree that we didn't really get to know Eileen as a character enough for me to really miss her as an individual.

But as an *idea,* I thought she was really interesting. Like, I legit wanted to see how she hunted considering that she was a petite woman, Deaf, and was traveling in from abroad. She had zero of the strengths that the Winchesters did and probably didn't have the same habits, either. It would have been interesting to see them working together more (as well as to see Eileen work alone). I also wanted to hear an Irish take on the BMOL. And yeah, it was intriguing to me that she and Sam had chemistry or at least some kind of mutual friendship brewing. Neither brother has been with a hunter chick (save sorta/kinda Jo), if I remember right? IMO the whole setup for her character was fascinating, and I wanted to see it payoff at least somewhat -- so I am pretty frustrated that she's just been killed and apparently we're not going to get any payoff after all. Meanwhile, Lucifer is still kicking. *Rolls eyes and pours one out*

Also still sad about Wally, Mick, Alicia, Tasha. But I mean, that's just this back half of S12. If we want to go back a ways...I'm still sad about Gordon FFS. Also, off the top of my head:  Rufus, Henriksen, random-ass Tara, YELLOW EYES, Ellen. I bring up John every ten seconds in discussion here, obviously I'm not happy he's dead, and he died HUNDREDS of episodes ago! I mean, whatever, there are a whole rack of characters all through the show's history that I'm still sad (and very frustrated) died too soon.

If I were a producer on this show, I would INSIST on one rule for the writers:  NO ONE DIES. I feel like killing off side characters has become such a crutch.

I would force them to put a banner over their white board:  Dying is easy, living is hard.

Edited May 16, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I would force them to put a banner over their white board:  Dying is easy, living is hard.

::snort:: Or how about: Dying is stupid; living is smart! ;)

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: Or how about: Dying is stupid; living is smart! ;)

SPN: Living is hard! Dying? What's dying?

[sarthaz]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I know not caring about Eileen is a big fat UO, so I'll be hiding in the corner to avoid any bricks heading in my direction...

I didn't care about her, but mostly because I've been too well trained by this show.  The moment she showed up again mid-season, I knew she'd be fridged right before the season finale, so any shipping they hinted at with her and Sam just felt cold and manipulative from the jump.

[ahrtee]

Just now, sarthaz said:

I didn't care about her, but mostly because I've been too well trained by this show.  The moment she showed up again mid-season, I knew she'd be fridged right before the season finale, so any shipping they hinted at with her and Sam just felt cold and manipulative from the jump.

I just didn't really feel the chemistry (though it might have developed if we'd seen them actually *talk* to each other about something other than hunting. )  It did feel like they were trying to manipulate the fans into shipping them, but then they missed on the angst.  Altogether a pointless fridging IMO.

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

still sad about Wally, Mick, Alicia, Tasha. But I mean, that's just this back half of S12. If we want to go back a ways...I'm still sad about Gordon FFS. Also, off the top of my head:  Rufus, Henriksen, random-ass Tara, YELLOW EYES, Ellen. I bring up John every ten seconds in discussion here, obviously I'm not happy he's dead, and he died HUNDREDS of episodes ago! I mean, whatever, there are a whole rack of characters all through the show's history that I'm still sad (and very frustrated) died too soon.

Most of those were (to me) more interesting characters.  Even the one-shots like Wally, Tasha, and Tara had some individual quirks that made them stand out (just saw Tara in today's rerun, and damn! I liked her attitude!) and the ones we got the chance to know--Mick, Gordon, Rufus, Henriksen, Ellen and even Charlie and Jo--were well-drawn characters (whether or not you liked them.)  They all had some depth and complexity that you could see in their interactions with others.  THOSE were the ones I mourn, and I resent TPTB for killing them off, even if it was necessary for the story.

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

If I were a producer on this show, I would INSIST on one rule for the writers:  NO ONE DIES. I feel like killing off side characters has become such a crutch

Nah--aside from the need for monster victims, there are way too many characters that I just don't want to see any more (not even counting some of the "regulars" that are starting to outstay their welcome.)   Personally, I think Ketch, Lady Whosit and Madam Umbridge are pretty 2-D and won't miss them at all, and pretty much all the BMOLs are redshirts.  I'd just wish the writers would be a little more judicious in their weeding of the more interesting characters...and preferably make the deaths meaningful or at the very least relevant, and not just thrown in for shock or angst.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Most of those were (to me) more interesting characters.  Even the one-shots like Wally, Tasha, and Tara had some individual quirks that made them stand out (just saw Tara in today's rerun, and damn! I liked her attitude!) 

Interesting - because I remembered Eileen and her interactions with Sam, but I didn't really remember Tasha and Tara offhand. Looking them up, I remembered liking Tara - though I had a feeling she was a goner when we met her, because Dean was getting dangerous information from her, so she was going to be vulnerable as soon as she wouldn't go with him.

The Tasha mentioned in Super-Wiki was a werewolf. I wasn't all that fond of her.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The Tasha mentioned in Super-Wiki was a werewolf. I wasn't all that fond of her.

I was thinking of Tasha Banes from last week's (?) ep.  I think SuperWiki hasn't caught up yet.  I liked the way she offered to cleanse the witch's aura (or something similar).  IA Tasha the werewolf was pretty horrible.  

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting - because I remembered Eileen and her interactions with Sam

I remembered some (maybe most) of Sam's interactions with Eileen in Into the Mystic, but didn't see anything that made her stand out from other hunters they've met (except for being deaf).  I much preferred Mildred--she had a distinct personality that was definitely memorable.   I did like the way Eileen and Mildred were ogling/giggling over the brothers in sign, though.  

[bettername2come]

Those bastards killed a deaf woman with an invisible monster. Fuck this show. I liked her. I liked the idea of her and Sam together and had started to consider it/fear for her life on her second appearance. How does Jody hear about a mauling death in South Carolina? She really is the new Bobby. The BMOL can't keep Crowley out? I hate to agree with BMOL, but I liked her agreement with Crowley that demons only deal with people dumb enough to sell their souls. You know Ketch is bad when Lady Torture calls him a psychopath. They checked the telescope for bugs before the table? Also, I need to see them use that telescope just once. It's my new grenade launcher. "I'm not gonna say bad dog. It could get unpleasant." Solid logic. Samantha Smith puts in a good performance. I don't mind Mary's logic/actions so much this season when watching them quickly. It bugged me more when it took eight months. Love Dean's behind the back gun move and slide and Sam looks way too attractive point his gun at people this episode. It's weird to just see them shooting SWAT-looking guys in the head. "Mom, look at me." *strings begin to play* It's just such a well-timed manipulative musical cue. 

[Hanahope]

Ok big push to the end.

i hate they killed Eileen.  That just sucks!!!

Mary was so pitiful, I had hoped even drugged up she’d fight it.  I hate they turned her against the boys.

and seriously, they don’t look under the desk first??? Where they always talk? 

Nice work to get Lady Toni, and now they are stuck with her.  I know they’ll figure a way out, they always do.

 

i know Crowley is not dead yet, he went into the rat (though that could be the hamster too)

[Wayward Son]

Rewatched this one last night and the death of Eileen is still gross and horrible :( 

[The Companion]

On 5/11/2017 at 8:05 PM, catrox14 said:

Fuck this show.  I knew Eileen was gonna die. What a fucking terrible episode all the way around.

 

Dearest show, I would like to cordially invite you to fuck off. Xoxo TC

I suspect everyone knows how I feel about fridging yet another woman. I mean, you have this apparently competent hunter and she doesn't even get to put up a fucking fight? And then we have to hear her call herself girly for asking for help? Fuuuuuuck you, show. Seriously. 

It is PARTICULARLY egregious to have her killed with no fight after some random woman got in a hit just a few episodes ago. But no, her death was for one purpose only. To give the boys some feels. To motivate them.

And I fucking knew it. I KNEW it. Halfway through her last episode. I am so tired of watching women get fridged. 

On 5/11/2017 at 8:13 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I think Crowley's death was a total fake out.  He's in the rat that was scurrying around and then chasing after his body at the end.  I'm glad...I didn't want to lose Mark.  I'm not exactly sure how he could do that without actually smoking out, though.  I'm sure they'll show us how he did it next week.

 

Crowley's death was definitely not permanent and it makes me angrier. Because of course it wasn't. He isn't a woman and his death won't give the guys the feels. 🙄

On 5/11/2017 at 8:34 PM, Boopsahoy said:

I need to rewatch without commercials-but there was a lot I liked in the episode. That fight scene in the bunker was great.   

The bunker fight was amazing. It was probably the sole redeeming quality for me on this episode, but it was pretty fantastic.

On 5/11/2017 at 9:15 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I actually thought that was a pretty effective scene.  I totally got where Mary was coming from.  She's had her family and her strength of will, and now that she knows they can make her kill people she cares about, she can't bear the thought of that.  She fully intended to kill herself, but when that didn't work she tried to appeal to Ketch to do it for her.  I thought her breakdown was very believable.  

I'm not at all thrilled with what they did with Mary's character this season, but I think they've been slowly turning that around the last few episodes.  She reiterated the fact that she was only working with the BMOL to possibly give her sons a future without monsters, which maybe is the only thing she thinks she has to offer them.  Maybe she doesn't trust that they just want her.  Either way, she's definitely softening toward them, which is why I want her back next season.  We deserve something good to come from this relationship and so do Sam and Dean.  Otherwise, it's just manipulation.

The Mary stuff is, honestly, sort of a fail for me but I am starting to think this is one of those things like Samelia (sorry) where the writers want us to take their word that things are happening that aren't actually playing out on the screen, and therefore the story is getting lost. It makes no sense otherwise. The shift to brainwashed Mary should have been horrible and sad, because they should have established a better relationship between her and the boys. They pay lip service to it with "I love you" and Mary offering to die for them, but they never actually remembered to establish a connection. I just don't understand it. It is so bizarre. 

On 5/11/2017 at 10:11 PM, rue721 said:

I don't think she would, though? She dislikes him and he's pretty much useless to her.

Well, he didn't snap her neck like Sunday dinner so she might help if it was against Lucifer. 

On 5/12/2017 at 9:11 AM, TexasGal said:

You guys, seriously - they know that the BMoL got into the bunker to lay the bug.  But they don't fortify it somehow before they leave for their sting so that they can get in AGAIN?  Nope.  Not buying that at all.

This is the most infuriating hole. They know the BMoL can access the bunker and do nothing. Why not have the BMoL have knowledge of a secret way in? It's like they want the guys to look dumb.

On 5/12/2017 at 11:45 AM, Geordiegirl1967 said:

 

- no discernable acknowledgement in the script of the emotional impact of Eileen's death - which let down her character and the episode. I would have expected Dean to sympathise with / comfort (not in a naff fan fiction way - a pat on the shoulder would do) a clearly distressed Sam (well done to Jared for bringing some emotion to Eileen's death that wasn't even in the script in the scene where they got her letter - tho he got no help from the writers). But these writers never capitalise on even the most obvious opportunities to showcase the brothers bond.

. . . 

The rat had a more interesting emotional arc this ep than they did!!!

Sooooo frustrating!

Preach. They fridged her and still wasted the manpain. I just want to scream over the entire thing. 

Heee on the rat.

On 5/12/2017 at 6:42 PM, Binns said:

Just stopping in to say "f you very much BuckLemming" for killing off 

1. A strong, capable, female character

2. Who is also hearing-impaired and who has commented on actors with disabilities struggling with getting roles 

3. Who may have also been a sweetheart of Sam

4. Who was beloved by fandom, so why not give her a grisly death 

5. When there was NO REASON for it. There have been hunters dying all over the place. It was no fun to hear about all of them. You threw this death in for cheap shock value. 

5. Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and play more mind-rape games but this time with someone's mother, and make sure to lovingly film her breakdown, in which she is driven to the point of suicide. 

 

Hated this episode. If it wasn't for J2's acting, as well as Sam Smith's, I'm not sure I would keep it on my dvr. 

 

YES TO ALL OF THIS. 

On 5/15/2017 at 2:41 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

As much as I hated the fake-out of Rowena's 'death' at Casifer's hands, I did believe it. This was just another example of the assy writing that is S12.

ETA: Me too. If I had to choose between Crowley and Cas, I'd keep Crowley. JMO though.

Me too, but then she also had a line to give Crowley the feels and she was murdered and discarded, so it was the SPN fridging template. 🙄 and I still don't forgive them for that visual. #stillsalty

They didn't even try to sell Crowley's death.

On 5/15/2017 at 11:01 PM, catrox14 said:

The more I think about that letter, the angrier I get. I HATED BL making a bad ass female hunter say to Sam and Dean "Not to get all girly". WTF, man, just WTF.  They just did Eileen so dirty, making her die by something she had no chance against, where her disability is basically WHY she died, not giving her ONE word of dialogue before being mauled by a hellhound, and then having her more or less apologize for wanting to stay with them at the bunker and framing it as her being "girly". JFC, they would NEVER have had Garth or anyone apologize for asking for protection.

Fuck you, Buckleming

RIGHT? RIGHT??

On 5/16/2017 at 6:59 AM, Katy M said:

Name one person who has taken on a hell hound and won without having glasses dipped in holy oil?  If she had had those her deafness wouldn't have made much difference, but not having them, her deafess didn't make her much more vulnerable than anyone else.  She did not get torn apart by hell hounds because she was Deaf. She got torn apart by a hell hound because it was a hell hound.

I will add, since you brought it up, though, that I've never thought hunting was a great idea for a Deaf person the moment she was introduced.  Especially without a partner.  There is a reason there are no Deaf cops, firefighters, or soldiers.

They literally had an untrained woman take on a hellhound a few episodes ago. But beyond that, there are in fact Deaf police officers and firefighters. And there have been several attempts at legislation to open up the military to Deaf people. Some non US military allow Deaf people to serve in non combat roles.

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that I am not a fan of this episode. Except the bunker fight. I didn't even get to the stupidity of leaving the guys in the bunker. The BMoL really are cartoonish bad guys. How boring.

But mainly, I am just tired of women getting stuffed in fridges. Sigh. 

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, The Companion said:

But mainly, I am just tired of women getting stuffed in fridges. Sigh. 

They didn't stuff Eileen in the fridge.  They dropped it on her first.