S05.E21: Honor Thy Fathers

[Delphi]

Heh.   We should get them Netflix,  if Marc is so inclined I'd lend him my password,  user agreements be damned.

Though,  I can kind of reconcile the pilot murder considering right after he shot himself in the head.   That's pretty much instant retribution.   Not saying Robert was right,  but there was no way all three of them would have survived. 

[tennisgurl]

I don't really blame Robert for killing the crew member, at least the way I blame other characters for the murders they have committed. He did it for Oliver, which probably still isn't something a really good person would do, it is at least a tad bit more understandable. Robert wasn't a good guy, but I totally think he loved his kids absolutely and would do anything for them, even awful things.

I actually thought Oliver handled the speech about his father really well. He admitted his father was guilty, didn't excuse it, but moved on quickly to catching Adrian. A rare nice political moment for Ollie.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Starts To Wrap Things Up

As the fifth season approaches its finale, the show picks up some threads left over from its premise.

[Bats27]

I don't really consider what Robert did in the life-boat to be "cold-blooded murder."  Because I don't buy for a second that he'd do that in a different situation.  Heck the whole reason why they were there in the first place was because Robert found out that Malcolm had decided to just kill everybody, wanted to try and stop it and confided in a person he thought he could trust, and then that person sold him out to Malcolm.

Now can you argue that what he did was wrong, oh yes.  But I see it much more as a last desperate act by a man who thought that he had no other choice in order to give his son, whom he clearly loved, a better chance at survival (which is why he then shot HIMSELF as well).

[bijoux]

Plus, I think they were probably drifting for a while then. (It's been a while since I've seen the pilot, so tell me if there is anything that contradicts this.) And argument could be made the Robert was not of sound mind at that point.

[leopardprint]

37 minutes ago, Bats27 said:

I don't really consider what Robert did in the life-boat to be "cold-blooded murder."  Because I don't buy for a second that he'd do that in a different situation.  Heck the whole reason why they were there in the first place was because Robert found out that Malcolm had decided to just kill everybody, wanted to try and stop it and confided in a person he thought he could trust, and then that person sold him out to Malcolm.

Now can you argue that what he did was wrong, oh yes.  But I see it much more as a last desperate act by a man who thought that he had no other choice in order to give his son, whom he clearly loved, a better chance at survival (which is why he then shot HIMSELF as well).

I meant it more like Oliver should be aware that his father takes extreme actions if pushed especially for his children so he should be less skeptical that his father would kill someone. He also knows his father was initially involved with the Undertaking and was generally not a great person. 

[blackwing]

I thought that Oliver was going to reveal to Chase that they are half-brothers.  That Robert Queen is Chase's real father.  As it was, such an anticlimactic "final battle" in the stairwell.  I found it very disappointing.  No doubt Chase is going to find a way to get out of that glass box.  Why are they allowing him to watch TV in there anyways?  

I couldn't care less about Wild Dung and his custody battle.  I had a brief glimmer of hope that Sampson was going to kill him.  Stupid Dinah!

Obviously Jamey Sheridan has aged over the past five years, but the Robert Queen that was on that video talking to Thea looks absolutely nothing like the Robert Queen in the lifeboat from Season 1.  His hair is all completely silver grey in the video and his face is fuller.  They at least could have attempted to make him look similar to how he looked when we last saw him.

Edited May 12, 2017 by blackwing

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

There's monetary compensation. I doubt that guy's family was wealthy like the Queen family. Maybe he was their primary or sole support. The point it, Oliver was still covering up for his father.

Practically speaking, the EPs/writers probably just forgot about him.

I would love if Oliver checked on the guy's family and helped if he could, even financially, but plain old monetary compensation when it wasn't Oliver's fault feels wrong, like he's being extorted by survivor's guilt.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I would love if Oliver checked on the guy's family and helped if he could, even financially, but plain old monetary compensation when it wasn't Oliver's fault feels wrong, like he's being extorted by survivor's guilt.

Assuming the guy had any family or loved ones. 

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

the Robert Queen that was on that video talking to Thea looks absolutely nothing like the Robert Queen in the lifeboat from Season 1.  His hair is all completely silver grey in the video and his face is fuller.

One can assume that Robert was healthier when he made the video, and that drifting on that lifeboat, for days it was, which is why Robert pulled out the gun, killed the dude whose name I can't remember and then himself; to give Oliver a fighting chance, as it were. I'm not going to get all up in arms over this because one, it was the pilot episode; and two, I don't think any of the writers or Guggenheim, remember what was written back then, as the pilot is shot and filmed, way before the rest of the of the first season and even before the show, any show, is green-lit. Example: the pilot of  Law & Order was shot and filmed in 1988; once Wolf got NBC to take a second look and a thumbs up, it was 1990, when the rest of the shows were filmed. There was another episode "Everybody's Favorite Bagman," which was the pilot, but they went with "Prescription for Death." You can tell, because George Dzundza-who played Sgt. Max Greevy, was a lot thinner and had more hair, and Chris Noth's Mike Logan looked like a baby.??

So. I didn't find the episode fillerish or boring. I'm of the mind that after a few intense episodes, being on the edge of my seat, an episode like this gives me a chance to get my emotions all settled. Plus, we have the shoulder touching and actually talking to each other back, so I'm good.

What's not good, and I think I said it in the character thread, is how Chase seems to know everything about everything and always several steps ahead of Oliver. But what really frosts my cookies* is how I'm expected to believe he's a better fighter than Oliver. I just want Oliver or Dig, to smack the smug/smirk off his face fucking already. I don't think that's too much to ask. He's gotten past the 'stache twirling villain.??????

*Line from Mike Logan when he learned Max had a partner before him who had died and Max never told him.

Edited May 13, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[TwistedandBored]

This episode was good but it wasn't as great as last episode.

Also, I am getting tired of Chase saying he and Oliver fight the same because they had the same teacher. Like no show, Oliver had many teachers. Seriously, all Talia did was enhance the skills Oliver already had. His real teachers were the people that came before her. 

[Hiveminder]

OMG, I am so over Chase being able to fight Oliver because Talia trained them both. Oliver was also trained by Slade Wilson, Shado, and Ras Al Ghul, he's trained along side Dig, Sara, and others, and he has ten years of experience fighting people of all levels of skill and experience. He should wipe the floor with that smug ass. 

That's what I hate the most about Chase. The smugness. 

[EmilyBettFan]

I don't want Chase to die or Segarra to leave. I need and I want scenes with him and Felicity/Emily darn it! LOL

[leopardprint]

I actually have hated that argument since S3, it makes no sense, so if I get Greg Popovich to coach me will I suddenly be able to go one on one with Tim Duncan? 

[Proteus]

Did we ever see Oliver with those vids from his father for him and Thea before?

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Proteus said:

Did we ever see Oliver with those vids from his father for him and Thea before?

I think the video for Oliver first appeared in the S3 flashback episode when Oliver came home to SC. Can't remember if it was the exact same video as this episode.

I don't believe we've ever seen or heard of a video for Thea before.

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think the video for Oliver first appeared in the S3 flashback episode when Oliver came home to SC. Can't remember if it was the exact same video as this episode.

I don't believe we've ever seen or heard of a video for Thea before.

IIRC, there was also a file for Thea in that same episode but Oliver didn't watch it. 

[statsgirl]

Presumably Oliver watched it at some point because he said he didn't want to show Thea hers because it told her to look after him and "I didn't want to burden her."

To me, that says volumes on how Oliver feels about Robert tasking him to save the city.  (But I have no expectation of the writers being aware of that.)

[Proteus]

35 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think the video for Oliver first appeared in the S3 flashback episode when Oliver came home to SC. Can't remember if it was the exact same video as this episode.

I don't believe we've ever seen or heard of a video for Thea before.

 

32 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

IIRC, there was also a file for Thea in that same episode but Oliver didn't watch it. 

Thanks guys, now I remember.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, leopardprint said:

IIRC, there was also a file for Thea in that same episode but Oliver didn't watch it. 

Thanks,  i didn't remember that.

[legaleagle53]

On 5/11/2017 at 10:45 AM, johntfs said:

Also, Central City has three powerful superheroes (Flash, Kid Flash and Vibe) and the entire damn Central City Police Department to help protect Samantha and William.

And if that's not enough, they know how to summon Supergirl from her Earth if things get really hairy.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 5/11/2017 at 1:45 PM, johntfs said:

Also, Central City has three powerful superheroes (Flash, Kid Flash and Vibe) and the entire damn Central City Police Department to help protect Samantha and William.

It's my understanding that Sam the twit and Willie no longer live in Central City-after his kidnapping, Oliver told her to move far away and not to tell him where they were going. Plus she didn't know who Barry, Cisco and Wally were, and knowing what a judgmental selfish twerp she turned into, I can't see her trusting them, let alone asking for their help.

52 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

And if that's not enough, they know how to summon Supergirl from her Earth if things get really hairy.

I don't know. She seemed resentful and angry toward Oliver even after learning he was Arrow and not being fast enough to find Willie. Which he may have, if she hadn't waited TWO DAYS after he was taken to tell him.??? So she'd probably be bitchy to Kara as well.

One would think that she had been the girlfriend Oliver had cheated on, instead of the one he cheated with.??

As you can see, I'm not a fan.

[johntfs]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oliver told her to move far away and not to tell him where they were going.

Exactly my point.  He should have told to stay in Central City and asked Barry and co. to keep an eye on her and the kid.

[Jacks-Son]

If it wasn't for the last scene, I would have said this episode was a bit anticlimactic. I can't believe that Oliver wouldn't have suspected that Chase gave up too easily. Both the flashbacks (gotta love Anatoly) and the current scenes were a bit dull.  (All the makings of a penultimate episode) The only highlights were Thea's return (please bring her back!!), Dinah's growing role with the team and a slight defrosting of the Olicity tension. Curtis is okay, but he's a bit of a comedian that needs to tone it down a bit. Rene? I just don't know what they can do about Rene. I'd gladly give up Rene so that he can raise his daughter and bring back Rory. Ragman was a unique character. All Rene has is his guns, and we've got Diggs for that.

I don't know a damn thing about ladies' fashion styles but I know what usually is appealing for me to look at.  Usually, Felicity wears tight skirts (red or blue, with blue being my favorite to watch her in) but that crap she was wearing made me think of one thing...she's hiding a pregnancy.  Also, her calves looked a lot fuller than usual.  Now, I don't really think she's pregnant, but that outfit hid WAY too much of Emily Bett Rickards for my liking.

p.s. William's mother is played by Anna Hopkins, she was the uniformed hottie named Berlin, in the Syfy series "Defiance".  I know those lips anywhere.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Jacks-Son
Post-script addition

[legaleagle53]

14 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I don't know a damn thing about ladies' fashion styles but I know what usually is appealing for me to look at.  Usually, Felicity wears tight skirts (red or blue, with blue being my favorite to watch her in) but that crap she was wearing made me think of one thing...she's hiding a pregnancy.  Also, her calves looked a lot fuller than usual.  Now, I don't really think she's pregnant, but that outfit hid WAY too much of Emily Bett Rickards for my liking.

I didn't have a problem with the red skirt or the bright red lipstick (although I've always felt that the best way to use makeup is to go for shades that don't make it obvious that you're wearing makeup -- in other words, go for a more subtle, understated look).  But that hideous blouse needs to be burned -- stat.  Felicity, what were you thinking?

Edited May 14, 2017 by legaleagle53

[bijoux]

Source

[tv echo]

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) - Oliver Queen’s voiceover intro:
Oliver (voiceover): "My name is Oliver Queen. After five years in hell, I returned home with only one goal - to save my city. Today I fight that war on two fronts: By day, I lead Star City as its mayor. But by night, I am someone else. I am something else. I am the Green Arrow."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Oliver talks to the team about the concrete-encased skeleton of Councilman Henry Goodwin (reported missing in 2002) that was delivered to his mayoral office by Adrian Chase:
Oliver: "There has to be a connection. Chase does everything for a reason. We need to know what it is."
Diggle: "It's going to be a tall order, Oliver. We're already spread thin keeping an eye on the guys that Chase was prosecuting when you got kicked."
Oliver: "I've already asked Quentin to task the S.C.P.D. with monitoring the most dangerous ones."
Felicity: "Which leaves us with the extremely dangerous ones, I'm guessing. (Pulls up criminal profile on computer screen) Ooh. Zombie 'I-Can't-Feel-Pain' Derek Sampson has my vote."
Oliver: "What's he been up to since getting out of prison?"
Rene (entering): "Partying like a guy who just got out of prison."
Oliver: "Stay on him, and whoever else we think are the most dangerous." (Diggle and Rene leave)
Curtis: "What about your office's newest art installation? The concrete councilman?"
Oliver: "Dinah's working the evidence. She has a lead, we make a move." (Curtis leaves)
(Oliver walks over to Felicity, who's working on the computer.)
Oliver: "Hey. (Sighs) How is it going with, uh -"
Felicity: "William?"
Oliver: "Yep."
Felicity: "I'm actually having trouble finding him. Samantha did a really good job of hiding herself and William."
Oliver: "Well, if Felicity Smoak can't find them, I feel better about Chase not being able to. So... thank you." (Puts hand on her shoulder)
(Felicity looks at his hand and smiles.)

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Felicity tells Diggle that she might have a location where Councilman Goodwin was killed:
Diggle (entering): "Got your 9-1-1 call."
Felicity: "Gas chromatograph came back with something very interesting on that concrete. Traces of soil with high levels of copper concentration."
Diggle: "Yeah. I think you and I have very different ideas of what 'interesting' means."
Felicity: "Eh. Well. I cross-referenced Queen Consolidated construction locations with areas in the city rich in copper, and -"
Diggle: "You think you know where Goodwin was killed."
Felicity: "Well, nothing concrete, but yeah. If Chase is trying to send a message -"
Diggle: "He might be saying 'come find me.' Okay, send this address to Oliver. I'll meet him there."
Felicity: "But what of Curtis and Dinah?"
Diggle: "They are staking out Derek Sampson."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Oliver (wearing a black balaclava and not his Green Arrow suit) and Diggle check out the former Oliver Enterprises building, but are trapped in a vat that is filling with cement liquid:
Oliver (over comms): "Overwatch, can you narrow the search for us?"
Felicity (over comms): "Normally, yes. But right now the only heat signatures I'm reading in there are you two."
*  *  *
Oliver: "After all these months, I refuse to believe this is Chase's endgame. (Over comms) Overwatch!"
Felicity (over comms): "Okay, I'm dialing up a rescue, but it's going to take a few minutes."
Diggle (over comms): "I'm not sure how many more of those minutes we've got!"
Curtis: "Okay, here we go."
Felicity (over comms): "Guys, we got a situation."
Curtis (over comms): Yeah, so do we."
Dinah (over comms): "Sampson's on the move."
Felicity (over comms): "Well, you're going to have to let him make it without you. Oliver and Dig are in trouble."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Team Arrow tries to figure out Chase's motives:
Oliver (entering with Diggle): "So we had to move off the Sampson stake-out?"
Felicity: "Yes, because John and you were re-enacting the Paleo version of my favorite scene from Witness."
Curtis: "Harrison Ford almost getting buried under the corn in the barn silo." (He and Felicity fist-bump)
Felicity: "That's the one. Awesome."
Dinah: "Oh right. And for those of us who haven't seen every movie ever, they mean it was a trap."
Curtis: "Who hasn't seen Witness?"
Diggle: "Or a distraction. I'd bet real money this Sampson's working with Chase."
Oliver: "It makes sense. Chase is the reason Sampson got out of prison. What did Sampson pull down while Curtis and Dinah were saving the day?"
Felicity: "They broke into a nearby lab."
Diggle: "To steal what?"
Felicity: "That's the thing. The chemicals that they stole - terillium and nitrocide - they have absolutely zero street value."
Diggle: "Terillium and nitrocide. Where have I heard those two before?"
Oliver: "It's two of the three components that Justin Claybourne was using to weaponize tuberculosis in Land Valley five years ago.
Dinah: "You say Claybourne was Chase's father."
Oliver: "He's dredging up the past."
Curtis: "In the case of Councilman Goodwin, literally."
Oliver: "For a reason. What was the third chemical?"
Felicity: "Cyclotrizene. But it's highly unstable, so it's banned from all domestic manufacturing."
Curtis: "Which would make it incredibly difficult for Sampson to get his hands on, in case Chase is trying to live out his dad's evil plan."
Oliver: "Chase will find a way."
Diggle: "To what end?"
Felicity: "John's right. If there is a connection between Chase's father and framing yours, I don't know what it is."
Quentin (entering with Rene): "We might have found someone who can help with that. Darren Coffman."
Rene: "Last dude Council Goodwin saw before he disappeared. S.C.P.D. interviewed him back in '02, but we think they didn't get the whole story."
Quentin: "Coffman was Goodwin's lawyer, but not just his lawyer. Coffman also represented Chase's old man."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Felicity calls while Oliver's talking to Thea about watching the video that Chase (via Coffman) gave to him:
Oliver (answering phone): "Yeah."
Felicity (on phone): "Dinah and Curtis tracked Sampson to Fairbanks Chemical. Military contractor who sold a whole lot of cyclotrizene to the U.S. government."
Oliver (on phone): "Text me the address. I'll met them there."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) - In a flashback scene, Anatoly Knyazev and Oliver return to Lian Yu, from where Oliver plans to be rescued; and they say goodbye to each other there:
Oliver: "Anatoly."
Anatoly: "Last time we say goodbye, it took us years."
Oliver: "We will see each other again."
Anatoly: "How about [Russian words]?"
Oliver: "How about ‘prochnost’?"
Anatoly: "Prochnost. Da. (Hugs Oliver) You will always be my brother."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Team Arrow figures out that Chase's biological agent is worse than what his father was making:
Oliver (entering): "What's going on?"
Diggle: "Curtis just finished his analysis of the cyclotrizene."
Curtis: "Remember how we thought Chase was following daddy's footsteps to create his TB epidemic? Surprise. Chase's plan is worse."
Felicity: "The chemicals Sampson stole are more refined than the ones Justin Claybourne used and could produce a biological agent a thousand times more powerful."
Dinah: "And without a cure."
Oliver: "How would Chase distribute it?"
Curtis: "It's aerolized. So pretty much any way he wants."
Diggle: "We have to find out where Chase is doing this thing, and stop him before he releases it."
Felicity: "Cyclotrizene degrades pretty quickly."
Curtis: "Which means it gives off trackable emissions."
Felicity: "It might."
Oliver: "If they find a location, we're going to need all hands on deck. Where's Rene?"
Dinah: "With Lance. Said it was personal."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – After Oliver listens again to his father's video message, he gets some words of wisdom from Felicity: 
Robert Queen (on video): “I always told myself, everything I did, I did for my family. That's a lie. Because what good is a family without a soul? You can right my wrongs. You can be better than I was. You can save this city."
Felicity (whistles): "No pressure or anything."
(Oliver half-laughs and briefly smiles.)
Felicity: "Is this the video you said your father left for you?"
Oliver: "Yeah. He left one for Thea too. I never showed it to her."
Felicity: "Why not?"
Oliver: "Because he asked her to always watch over me. I don't know, I didn't want to burden her with that."
Felicity: "Hmm. Sounds like typical Oliver Queen thinking. (Oliver sighs) Why are you rewatching it?"
Oliver: "I want to know how I missed it."
Felicity: "Missed what?"
Oliver: "He's a murderer. I mean, he helped Merlyn start the Undertaking. I've never deluded myself into thinking he was a saint, but to - to take a man's life and cover it up... It's like I didn't know him at all."
Felicity: "Has it occurred to you, this is exactly what Chase wants. (Oliver makes assenting sound) And the question was rhetorical. Of course, it's occurred to you. And of course, this is what Chase wants."
Oliver: "Chase wants to destroy the basis for everything that we're doing here. And that crusade began with my father. Everything that I've done. Everything. Has in some way been about honoring him."
Felicity: "Your father inspired you to save the city. And you did. At this point, who cares why? You're not a killer. The people you care about are not suffering because of you. Their life, my life, is better because you decided to become the Green Arrow. (Oliver nods) Well, whenever you decide to become the Green Arrow again."
Oliver: "I know you're right. I believe that you're right. But every time I take a step forward, it feels like the past is pulling me back."
Felicity: "Probably because you're letting it."
Oliver: "Yeah."
Felicity: "Maybe it's time to stop living for your father and start living for yourself. Just leave the past in the past."
(Computer starts beeping.)
Felicity: "The cyclotrizene emission trace came back. Computer's been working on a probable loca - (Stares at screen)"
Oliver: "What is it?"
(Computer screen shows location found is the Robert Queen Applied Sciences Center.)

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Oliver shows up in the field wearing the Green Arrow suit again:
Curtis: "Nice. What made you decide to put it back on?"
Oliver: "Felicity has a way with words."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Team Arrow celebrates Chase’s capture, and Felicity tells Thea about Oliver’s take-down of Adrian Chase:
Thea (entering): "Well, that's a lot of satisfied looking faces."
Curtis: "And Adrian Chase is warming up a cell at A.R.G.U.S. as we speak. (To Oliver) Did you want to deliver that news? Because I don't -"
Oliver: "That's fine."
Felicity: “Okay, so Oliver dropped this truth bomb on him. And then he was just like a marionette with his strings cut off. It was so epic!”
Dinah: "That's great, but there are a lot of bad guys left on the streets, okay?"
Rene: "Damn, girl, you know how to kill a mood."
Oliver: "Rene's right."
Rene: "Ohhh. Say that again."
Oliver: "You're right that tonight we should enjoy the win."
Diggle: "Agreed. So first round's on me."

521 (Honor Thy Fathers) – Mayor Queen gives a speech about his father:
Oliver: “Thank you for being here. I'd like to talk with everyone about my father. Our father. Based on further investigation, I can now state definitively that the allegations made against Robert Queen are true. My father is not here to defend himself. And I cannot find the words to defend his actions. What I can tell you is that nearly 10 years ago in a moment of - of immense courage, Robert Queen chose to sacrifice himself so that I might live - so that I had the opportunity to leave behind a better legacy than he did, so that I might return and - and one day serve this city. Today, we took a step forward. With help from the Green Arrow and his team, the Throwing Star Killer is now behind bars and our streets are a little safer. Tomorrow we'll take another step forward. And the day after, we will take another one because it is time - it truly is time for us to leave the past in the past, so that our children might inherit the Star City we have always dreamed of, the way my father dreamt of a better life for me and my sister. Thank you.”

Edited March 11, 2020 by tv echo