S04.E19: All The Madame's Men

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Then again, this, in my opinion, seems like a typical AoS thing to do. Kill off either a cool character, a character with lots of potential to make the story interesting, or just a really good character for that "extra" sad moment. And instead, we are left with a bunch of characters that I just don't find to be really interested in and/or invested in since they have all gone down a somewhat predictable path- they all end up hooking up with each other and they all seem kind of like assholes- especially during this season.

Good point.  They have killed off a lot of interesting characters while keeping some of the dull ones.  

I don't know if they plan on keeping Ward around or not, but I'll be on board if they do, his character has remained interesting so far, in all his incarnations.  Even this computer generated Ward seems to have some pathos, this may be the first time I've really felt for him and his Skye obsession/love/whatever it is.

Even more so with Mace, seems like there is plenty left in the tank there for him to do, if they decide to resurrect him.

Have they renewed AoS yet?  I was kind of under the impression this might be the last season.

[TVSpectator]

22 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Good point.  They have killed off a lot of interesting characters while keeping some of the dull ones.  

I don't know if they plan on keeping Ward around or not, but I'll be on board if they do, his character has remained interesting so far, in all his incarnations.  Even this computer generated Ward seems to have some pathos, this may be the first time I've really felt for him and his Skye obsession/love/whatever it is.

Even more so with Mace, seems like there is plenty left in the tank there for him to do, if they decide to resurrect him.

Have they renewed AoS yet?  I was kind of under the impression this might be the last season.

1

As far as I know- I don't know. TV Grim Reaper has their current renewal chances at something like 25%-35%, I have heard that Cancelation Bear has it a toss up and EW says that renewal is likely.  So who really knows at this point. 

[rmontro]

I was thinking that they were probably going to consider the new Inhumans TV show as the replacement for Agents of Shield.  But maybe not.

[TVSpectator]

Personally, I have no idea. This episode only pulled something like a 2.1 million viewers, which, in my opinion, isn't good and numbers alone is enough reason to cancel it without any resolution to the story. But it is a Marvel TV show, and Marvel's first MCU connected TV show, which could mean that this show has other factors that can keep it on the air. But, maybe they are just going to wait and see how the show does but personally, I have no idea what ABC will do. 

[hello]

Quote

It's amazing how much this framework arc is destroying every other superhero show.

Yeah - between Ghost Rider and the demon-possessed sexy murderbot AIDA, this show's been so head-and-shoulders-and-a-little-torso-too above those other shows that they've become unwatchable.

Flash is rehashing the same story arc for a third straight year (he has to fight another speedster, you say? Unpossible!). Legends and Supergirl still don't know what the hell they want to be. All have absolutely no regard for solid plotting (they finally come up with the solution BECAUSE!!!) and are especially awful at doing time travel stories.

I'm liking my 10PM, sever the hot Russian's head and let him run a murderbot version of himself from inside a jar of liquid, Agents of Shield just fine thanks. It's wildly imaginative and doesn't treat watchers like dopes.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

But it is a Marvel TV show, and Marvel's first MCU connected TV show, which could mean that this show has other factors that can keep it on the air. But, maybe they are just going to wait and see how the show does but personally, I have no idea what ABC will do. 

As I understand it, Disney owns ABC (and Disney also owns Marvel).  I assume that regardless of the ratings, they wanted enough episodes to be able to syndicate it, which they have already accomplished.

44 minutes ago, hello said:

Yeah - between Ghost Rider and the demon-possessed sexy murderbot AIDA, this show's been so head-and-shoulders-and-a-little-torso-too above those other shows that they've become unwatchable.

Flash is rehashing the same story arc for a third straight year (he has to fight another speedster, you say? Unpossible!). Legends and Supergirl still don't know what the hell they want to be. All have absolutely no regard for solid plotting (they finally come up with the solution BECAUSE!!!) and are especially awful at doing time travel stories.

This season has been pretty good.  I can't say I enthusiastically look forward to Agents of Shield, but once I start watching it I am always very engaged.  Somewhere along the line I lost interest in some of the other shows you mentioned, that I used to watch.  Did you see Legion?  It was surprisingly good.

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, rmontro said:

As I understand it, Disney owns ABC (and Disney also owns Marvel).  I assume that regardless of the ratings, they wanted enough episodes to be able to syndicate it, which they have already accomplished.

This season has been pretty good.  I can't say I enthusiastically look forward to Agents of Shield, but once I start watching it I am always very engaged.  Somewhere along the line I lost interest in some of the other shows you mentioned, that I used to watch.  Did you see Legion?  It was surprisingly good.

I tried it, Legion was an emperor wears no clothes for me. Like I was with the episodes surrendering The Winter Soldier and the war with the Afterlife Inhuman colony I have been watching all of the Ghost Rider and Framework pods/arcs at least twice. Along with Major Crimes it is the only show that I make every effort to watch live.This season probably goes into my library just as soon as it is released for home video.

I am still hoping that Bobbi and Hunter are among those now joining Phil Coulson Agent of SHIELD in the rebellion against Hydra.

[tennisgurl]

I really hope Bobbi and Hunter show up to fight Hydra. Lets just have everyone show up, that would be awesome!

I really hope Fitz gets his memories back soon, seeing him be evil is just depressing. Granted, its going to be SUPER depressing to see real Fitz deal with having been Evil Fitz, but at least he would be himself again.

[Chaos Theory]

12 hours ago, hello said:

Yeah - between Ghost Rider and the demon-possessed sexy murderbot AIDA, this show's been so head-and-shoulders-and-a-little-torso-too above those other shows that they've become unwatchable.

Flash is rehashing the same story arc for a third straight year (he has to fight another speedster, you say? Unpossible!). Legends and Supergirl still don't know what the hell they want to be. All have absolutely no regard for solid plotting (they finally come up with the solution BECAUSE!!!) and are especially awful at doing time travel stories.

I'm liking my 10PM, sever the hot Russian's head and let him run a murderbot version of himself from inside a jar of liquid, Agents of Shield just fine thanks. It's wildly imaginative and doesn't treat watchers like dopes.

The one thing Agents of Shield has always done well is tell a story then move on to the next.  Regardless of your feelings toward Skye and the eternal debate if she rates Mary Sue status (which I never thought she did) and whatever your feelings on Grant Ward and the show's unwillingness to either redeem him or kill him off for good AoS knows what it is and therefore has continued to write  both intriguing characters and thrilling stories which many other shows in the genre just haven't been able to do.

[TVSpectator]

44 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The one thing Agents of Shield has always done well is tell a story then move on to the next.  Regardless of your feelings toward Skye and the eternal debate if she rates Mary Sue status (which I never thought she did) and whatever your feelings on Grant Ward and the show's unwillingness to either redeem him or kill him off for good AoS knows what it is and therefore has continued to write  both intriguing characters and thrilling stories which many other shows in the genre just haven't been able to do.

 

 

 

I am like the opposite. I feel like AoS really does love telling the same story over and over again (i.e May gets kidnapped and replaced; a good main character turns evil under brainwashing or something and then reverts back to being good and goes under some kind of remorse guilt trip, Fitz and Simmons are not together etc...) and that the show just keeps on soft "rebooting" itself like every season. One season it's about them being an actual spy/intelligence organization, the next they are underground and they find out about the Inhumans and quickly becomes a superhero TV show. Then in the next season, it goes and becomes like a space-horror show about Hive. Then in next season, it's about the supernatural, and LMDs, and The Framework. It just keeps on changing. And also some of the characters are like all over the place on who they are and what they will do. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:04 PM, mac123x said:

So now we get to play the guessing game of who in the Framework gets a real body back in the real world!

Hope (even if she becomes a "Trixie" (from Lucifer) -- only seen for a scene or two every season) and Tripp
 

On 4/26/2017 at 2:03 PM, Teitr Styrr said:

 Even if they do bring Hope, they don't have to have her in many episodes, so the whole kid actor thing isn't a big deal, although I think she's a great little actress!

Me too

19 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I wish that they would ... use the Darkhold to turn time back to avoid all of this mess

I am thoroughly opposed to this idea.

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I am thoroughly opposed to this idea.

 

You do have a point that it isn't a really good idea but thinking about how everything was literally blown up before Daisy and Simmons went into the Framework and SHIELD just losing their PR figured head director - who is also a small national folk hero (that in no way they can explain to the public without risking a very visceral reaction), plus all of the other evil shit Fitz did in the Framework pretty much willingly, a time reversal doesn't sound that bad. I also feel that once they leave the Framework we will proabbly see Fitz being all mopey about the shit he did in the Framework and go down the same path that Daisy did back in the later half of Season 3. 

Or they will just ingore everything and pretend that everything is fine? I really don't know but I would like to see Mace alive in the real world. 

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Hope (even if she becomes a "Trixie" (from Lucifer) -- only seen for a scene or two every season) and Tripp

 

I have a feeling, if they are going down that route, then sadly  it's probably going to be Ward and Evil Fitz will also take over the real Fitz by the end of the season. While the actual Framework gets destroyed. 

[hello]

Quote

use the Darkhold to turn time back to avoid all of this mess

Pretty sure the Darkhold exists solely to create messes, not fix them LOL

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, hello said:

Pretty sure the Darkhold exists solely to create messes, not fix them LOL

Hehe, true but then again what if by turning back time it causes more messes that the team doesn't realize until it's too late?

[rmontro]

We already saw Mace's real body flatline, so I don't see how the Framework can undo that.

Unless they take his computerized intelligence and stick it in a LMD, or "rebirth" him somehow.  I wouldn't mind seeing Mace stick around, but I'm not really expecting them to do either of those things.

[jhlipton]

I fear Mace is gone, permanently.  I think realistically, the options are Ward, Tripp, and/or Hope, and Dark!Fitz.

Time travel might undo the current mess but it also makes the FrameWork episodes (some of the best of the series) completely irrelevant. 

[TVSpectator]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

We already saw Mace's real body flatline, so I don't see how the Framework can undo that.

Unless they take his computerized intelligence and stick it in a LMD, or "rebirth" him somehow.  I wouldn't mind seeing Mace stick around, but I'm not really expecting them to do either of those things.

 

 

Well, yeah Mace is dead and the only real hope that I see, but probably won't happen, is that they somehow "retrieve" his mind from the Framework and download it into an LMD body of him. 

 

25 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I fear Mace is gone, permanently.  I think realistically, the options are Ward, Tripp, and/or Hope, and Dark!Fitz.

Time travel might undo the current mess but it also makes the FrameWork episodes (some of the best of the series) completely irrelevant. 

 

 

In my mind, they are definitely bringing back Ward- probably download his body into an LMD and/or make him into a real human body through Project Looking Glass. As with evil Fitz (or over at Reddit he is being called, "Fitzler") I would like to think that his consciousness will be downloaded into the real Fitz and then spend the rest of the series as the big bad. But, I doubt that part will happen because I feel like they are following the literal path that Daisy followed back in the later half of Season 3 (and it was only a year ago as well). Where for whatever reason the whole idea of working for the bad guys is done and now he is going to be all mopey blaming himself, while the others will say something like, "it's not your fault Fitz. You were brainwashed and/or the Framework isn't real, etc..." to him. JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPEN WITH DAISY

Edited April 30, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Tiger]

If the show really wanted to be bold, it'd have Fitzler take over Fitz's body permanantly with the man who existed before literally erased.  

It'd be akin to Illyria taking over Fred's body on Angel, but with a bigger emotional punch since Fitzler is also Fitz but not really. 

[Sandman]

On 2017-04-26 at 11:53 AM, xqueenfrostine said:

But that begs the question of why Aida would need Fitz to be evil in order to get him to work on her machine.  She needed Fitz to be in love with her, sure, but a good Fitz would be just as motivated to build a machine that could save the person he saw as the love of his life as a bad one.

Why does AIDA require a repressive totalitarian regime? The Fitz we know might have been just as motivated to save the life of someone he loved (we've seen exactly the lengths that Fitz will go to), but I don't believe the Fitz we know could love someone as selfish and cruel as AIDA has proven to be. It's one thing to say that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s failure to stop Hydra led to its ascendancy and the totalitarian culture in place in the Framework -- but Madame Hydra is in charge, so this arrangement must serve her purpose somehow. Maybe she's just exploiting an opportunity, but if so, I think having a morally bankrupt Doctor in love with her serves her ends better than Real Fitz ever would. The Doctor clearly doesn't balk at whatever ends-justifying-means rationalization Madame Hydra "lives" by. 

[TVSpectator]

28 minutes ago, Tiger said:

If the show really wanted to be bold, it'd have Fitzler take over Fitz's body permanantly with the man who existed before literally erased.  

It'd be akin to Illyria taking over Fred's body on Angel, but with a bigger emotional punch since Fitzler is also Fitz but not really. 

 

I would love to have Fitler to take over Fitz's body permanently, but I just don't see it happening with this show. They probably won't do it because they like Fitz too much (if you have ever read an article/interview with both showrunners, they literally say that they love all the characters, but that Daisy is their favorite and they also really love the pairing of Fitz and Simmons). Which, in my opinion, is sad because they will probably miss a great opportunity to breath new life into the show, take it into a different direction, and also make it a bit interesting at the same time. Although I guess we will just end up with a very remorse/mopey Fitz that will a) try to stop AIDA and then b) be really sad until someone tells him it's not his fault (even though this whole season, it has been literally his fault) and then there will probably be another 3-6 months time jump and more shit would happen- like having the base that was literally blown up be rebuilt, public is less angry about Mace's disappearance and/or they were told a lie, no one goes to jail for hiding/protecting AIDA, no one gets drum out of SHIELD for hiding/protecting/not reporting a robot to SHIELD, etc...

In my opinion, at least with the time reversal/reset you won't have to deal with those consequences but at the same time, this show probably won't deal with any of the consequences of what Fitz or Simmons did over the course of this season. So, at least with the time reversal/reset it will at least make sense because those things never happened (because it's a different timeline) but without it then its just the show not dealing with the shit they wrote out, planned, and filmed. 

32 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Why does AIDA require a repressive totalitarian regime? The Fitz we know might have been just as motivated to save the life of someone he loved (we've seen exactly the lengths that Fitz will go to), but I don't believe the Fitz we know could love someone as selfish and cruel as AIDA has proven to be. It's one thing to say that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s failure to stop Hydra led to its ascendancy and the totalitarian culture in place in the Framework -- but Madame Hydra is in charge, so this arrangement must serve her purpose somehow. Maybe she's just exploiting an opportunity, but if so, I think having a morally bankrupt Doctor in love with her serves her ends better than Real Fitz ever would. The Doctor clearly doesn't balk at whatever ends-justifying-means rationalization Madame Hydra "lives" by. 

 

Why would AIDA use Hydra in the first place and why would May be totally fine with working with Hydra? Why was the population so fine with Hydra taking over? I guess some of that can be explained by how May didn't kill that girl and that she was either used by Hydra and/or she was Hydra and caused that "incident" that then somehow lead to Hydra taking over. But then again that doesn't explain things like where is Captain America, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Fury, Maria Hill, etc.... 

 

Then again, if AIDA only wanted a real body then why go through the trouble of kidnapping, and putting all of those who were kidnapped into the Framework and then plug a version of herself into it as well? Then while inside the Framework why would AIDA then go through the trouble of having Fitz work on "Project Looking Glass" only for herself to get a real body? It's one thing to think that she is doing it for Chthon but it's another if there is no Chthon involved. 

 

Personally, I feel like this whole Framework society/history is more like someone or something wanted Hydra to be in power rather than "this is a butterfly effect"

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

..they also really love the pairing of Fitz and Simmons

They're not alone there. 

TV shows have a long history of "OK, that;s done -- no need to worked up over who killed whom!" 

My problem with a single Fitz is that eventually Real!Fitz has to come back.  That will be easier if Fitzler comes through the Looking Glass, but Real!Fitz is unhooked from the FrameWork (as Coulson, Mack and Mae are).

[ohjoy]

5 hours ago, Tiger said:

If the show really wanted to be bold, it'd have Fitzler take over Fitz's body permanantly with the man who existed before literally erased.  

It'd be akin to Illyria taking over Fred's body on Angel, but with a bigger emotional punch since Fitzler is also Fitz but not really. 

I'll be completely honest, if we get the second coming of the Illyria plotline (especially if the show doesn't get renewed) with Fitz, I might have to find the whole Whedon clan and punch them each in the face. I hated the Illyria twist at the end of Angel's series SO VERY MUCH.

[TVSpectator]

28 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

They're not alone there. 

 

Yeah, I know that the shippers really love them but their pairing (especially after introducing Will) to me seems a bit a) boring/predictable, b) that Simmons has settled for Fitz after Will and Trip died, c) forced/rushed because of the close timing it was after Will's death (the show's timeline of events. Bouncing Back felt like it took place not to long after Maveth) and that was someone Simmons supposedly stated- on the show- she loved, d)  that Simmons never really loved Fitz, in a romantic/sexual way, until they were hooked up because of the shippers/internet pressure to do so. To me, it always felt like Simmons didn't like the idea of dating Fitz and hell, even in the episode they first slept together she was still unsure about sleeping with him and starting a relationship with Fitz. And even now it feels so wrong (at least to me) and that the writers kind of don't care about what Simmons feels about hooking up with Fitz. And e) really is not working for me. I mean she is the second in charged at SHIELD and she decided to blackmail Mace to protect Fitz (after she learned that he was keeping AIDA a secret)? But in reality, or at least realistically, someone like that would probably have Fitz bring AIDA to SHIELD and then cover it up, but instead, she just dug the hole deeper for the both of them by doing that. 

Don't get me wrong I still feel like the writers wanted them to be paired up but not at the point when they did pair them up because it felt so rushed. 

Quote

TV shows have a long history of "OK, that;s done -- no need to worked up over who killed whom!"

Well, again I agree that this show won't show any consequences for Fitz's and even Simmon's actions and they have started to pass the buck to Radcliffe but still, a better show would actually go there and that is probably why more people would talk about it than this show and actually watch it as well. This show probably won't go there. Instead, and more likely, we will probably have angsty/mopey Fitz like we had angsty/mopy Daisy and angsty/mopy Daisy was so well received /s.

28 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

My problem with a single Fitz is that eventually Real!Fitz has to come back.  That will be easier if Fitzler comes through the Looking Glass, but Real!Fitz is unhooked from the FrameWork (as Coulson, Mack and Mae are).

 

1

 

18 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I'll be completely honest, if we get the second coming of the Illyria plotline (especially if the show doesn't get renewed) with Fitz, I might have to find the whole Whedon clan and punch them each in the face. I hated the Illyria twist at the end of Angel's series SO VERY MUCH.

 

 

You know I was never a big Buffy fan and I really didn't get into Angle and I wouldn't really mind if Fitzler comes back into the real world using real Fitz's body. Although, what kind of bothered me was that they were so using a ton of Buffy and Firefly/Serenity scene (like trying to recreate them a bit) and it's not so much the references but the fact that they were done so much but I will put up wth Fitzler, in real Fitz's body, just because that would force the show to go in a different direction. 

Or then again, I mean, I guess no one would care that Fitz murdered at least two people in the Framework and also tortured Daisy. I guess they just feel everything must be so fake and/or Fitz is brainwashed by AIDA/The Darkhold (which he isn't, btw. Even AIDA mentioned that the Framework just brings out a real you but that the world just has a different history. So, there is no brainwashing going on here- this is the real Fitz, per se, doing these things. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

I mean, I guess no one would care that Fitz murdered at least two people in the Framework and also tortured Daisy.

I certainly don't want angsty/mopey Fitz and would take Fitzler or even time-travel to avoid it.  But hasn't Mae also murdered people and been complicit in the torture of Daisy and others?  Is her "I didn't know what they were doing" moment enough to absolve her?

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I certainly don't want angsty/mopey Fitz and would take Fitzler or even time-travel to avoid it.  But hasn't Mae also murdered people and been complicit in the torture of Daisy and others?  Is her "I didn't know what they were doing" moment enough to absolve her?

 

 

You know honestly, I would say no. Only because it seems like such a cheap cop-out to have her say, "I didn't know what they were doing..." has been used, literally in  real life and well that didn't really work out for those people did it? Yeah, since the show has decided to draw real life parallels to Nazis.....

Edit:

I forgot to mentioned that we have only seen Fitz murder at least two people that we know of from the real world (i.e. Anges and Mace) and we also know he tortured Daisy (who is also from the real world). Everyone else is still, theoretically, just 1s and 0s until otherwise mentioned this isn't just a simulation. Until then I guess May kind of does gets a bit off easy.  But still if they do want to go down the route of May just didn't know, then I have to say, what else was she thinking they were going to do? 

Edited May 1, 2017 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Everyone else is still, theoretically, just 1s and 0s until otherwise mentioned this isn't just a simulation. Until then I guess May kind of does gets a bit off easy. 

She doesn't (or didn't) know that.  For her, they were as real as she is.  Anyone who's aware of the FrameWork (Daisy, Simmons. Coulson. etc) can be excused for "killing" 1s and 0s but anyone who isn't can't.  Participants in the Stanford Experiment aren't excused because no one was actually tortured.

Edited May 1, 2017 by jhlipton

[hello]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I think realistically, the options are Ward, Tripp, and/or Hope, and Dark!Fitz.

I can see Dark!Fitz setting up his transfer into a Fitzy LMD. And I can see FrameWard pulling the rug out from under Dark!Fitz and hijacking his FitzBot at the very last second.

Nobody said the FrameFolk had to transfer into LMD bodies that were their own likeness!

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

She doesn't (or didn't) know that.  For her, they were as real as she is.  Anyone who's aware of the FrameWork (Daisy, Simmons. Coulson. etc) can be excused for "killing" 1s and 0s but anyone who isn't can't.  Participants in the Stanford Experiment aren't excused because no one was actually tortured.

 

Okay, so you are arguing that May should also be held responsible but what I really want to see is Fitz being held responsible for hiding AIDA in the real world. I am like really positive that Simmons and probably even Daisy will probably let Fitz go because she doesn't believe that the Framework is real and I am sure that May, once she realizes that the Framework isn't real, will also just shrug it off. Coulson will also let Fitz go but if Fitzler kills Hope I wonder if Mac will be really pissed off at him?

 

Overall, Fitz was the one who could've prevented this but he was the one who also helped improved AIDA as well and also was the main reason why SHIELD never found out about AIDA as well. AIDA is just as much of his creation as she is as Radcliffe's creation. As well as the Framework at this point. He is literally responsible but since they had Simmons give a little speech to that LMD Fitz (or maybe it was still the real Fitz?) that he shouldn't blame himself because according to her he isn't responsible for any of this. Unlike what Mac thinks. 

Although, I have a question was it Fitz that asked for AIDA to read the Darkhold or was it May? I can't remember who was the first one to get the idea of having AIDA read the Darkhold?

[jhlipton]

44 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I really want to see is Fitz being held responsible for hiding AIDA in the real world.

This is a totally separate issue from whether Fitz or Mae should be held responsible for their acts inside the FrameWork.  I say both or neither; I could be convinced either way.

I'm fine with Real!Fitz taking responsibility for Real!Mace's death though.

[mac123x]

15 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Anyone who's aware of the FrameWork (Daisy, Simmons. Coulson. etc) can be excused for "killing" 1s and 0s but anyone who isn't can't. 

For a while there it seemed like they might be going down the ST:TNG "Measure of a Man" path with FrameWard's arguments with Simmons regarding real-world vs Framework world, and whether the people in the Framework were independent moral agents (i.e., "alive" for lack of a better term).  Like, how do you tell the difference between real and simulated sentience?  Ward (and other NPCs) sure look like they could pass the Turing Test.  That could make an interesting dilemma after they've escaped:  do they turn the Framework off (consigning billions of simulated humans to oblivion), or do they leave it on and maybe try to improve it by making it less of a Hydra hellhole but potentially causing other problems (thus setting themselves up as fallible gods)?

I doubt they'll really get into this in much depth, though, because we seem to be headed towards our actiony conclusion full of action. 

14 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I have a question was it Fitz that asked for AIDA to read the Darkhold or was it May? I can't remember who was the first one to get the idea of having AIDA read the Darkhold?

AIDA herself first suggested it.  Fitz and Coulson and Robbie were trapped in some other dimension.  May and company had the Darkhold, but knew it was too dangerous for a human to read.  AIDA volunteered, and used the knowledge to rescue Fitz and Coulson... and to build the light-brain that became the basis for LMDs. 

[ParadoxLost]

20 hours ago, hello said:

I can see Dark!Fitz setting up his transfer into a Fitzy LMD. And I can see FrameWard pulling the rug out from under Dark!Fitz and hijacking his FitzBot at the very last second.

Nobody said the FrameFolk had to transfer into LMD bodies that were their own likeness!

I think DarkFirz having to transfer into anything is overly complicated.

I have to wonder if there is a consequence to not "waking up" in the frame work.  At this point, Fitz is the only one still alive that hasn't had something break through.  Mac, Coulson. and May all did something "horrible" enough that it jolted them and they joined up with the good guys.

It makes me think it will not be like waking from a dream.  Fitz is going to wake up "wrong" but no one else will realize the depth of it because they broke free enough to not have the same problem reconciling the frame work vs the real world.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, mac123x said:

Like, how do you tell the difference between real and simulated sentience?  Ward (and other NPCs) sure look like they could pass the Turing Test.  That could make an interesting dilemma after they've escaped:  do they turn the Framework off (consigning billions of simulated humans to oblivion), or do they leave it on and maybe try to improve it by making it less of a Hydra hellhole but potentially causing other problems (thus setting themselves up as fallible gods)?

Do the denizens of the Framework have free will?  If not, you could say they were doomed to extinction.  If they do, you could leave it on and whatever society they build (minus AIDA and Fiztler) is their own doing.  I, however, wouldn't have a problem turning it off -- their sentience is an artifact of the program, not a thing unto itself.

[TVSpectator]

38 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Do the denizens of the Framework have free will?  If not, you could say they were doomed to extinction.  If they do, you could leave it on and whatever society they build (minus AIDA and Fiztler) is their own doing.  I, however, wouldn't have a problem turning it off -- their sentience is an artifact of the program, not a thing unto itself.

 

 

But Fitz in the Spacetime episode literally explained that they don't have free will in their universe. It's just he framed it in a way about Time being the 4th Dimension and that everything has happened and that we (meaning people in the MCU) can't change it. Thus, he is saying (in between the lines kind of way) that there is no free will for himself and the others. We are doomed to our fates because of Time being in the 4th Dimension- because Fitz said it. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

30 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

But Fitz in the Spacetime episode literally explained that they don't have free will in their universe. It's just he framed it in a way about Time being the 4th Dimension and that everything has happened and that we (meaning people in the MCU) can't change it. Thus, he is saying (in between the lines kind of way) that there is no free will for himself and the others. We are doomed to our fates because of Time being in the 4th Dimension- because Fitz said it. 

Yes, well, I don't care if Fitz marries John Calvin and they have a bunch of pre-ordained babies -- I will chose free will! 

Edited May 2, 2017 by jhlipton

[TVSpectator]

46 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Yes, well, I don't care if Fitz marries John Calvin and they have a bunch of pre-ordained babies -- I will chose free will! 

Still, though, Fitz pretty much said, in AoS canon, that there is no free will. Shitty as it is but this is something that the showrunners want to happen on their show.

Quote

MAURISSA TANCHAROEN: You should just watch and see. We’ve made it pretty clear that once you see a vision, you can’t change it.

http://ew.com/article/2016/04/13/agents-shield-secret-warriors-spoilers/

Edited May 2, 2017 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

If there's no free will, then it doesn't matter what we, or the Agents want or think.  They're destined to leave the Framework running or turn it off, regardless of the ethics.

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

If there's no free will, then it doesn't matter what we, or the Agents want or think.  They're destined to leave the Framework running or turn it off, regardless of the ethics.

But that scene is still canon. I guess there is no free will. 

[jhlipton]

Disagree on agreeing?  (You knew I'd say that!  I always have and always will. -- flashback to Slaughterhouse 5!!!  So it goes.)

Edited May 2, 2017 by jhlipton

[Chaos Theory]

Anyone who watches The Man In The High Castle over on Amazon or who reads alternate fiction needs to accept the premise that a single pebble can change an ocean.     Changing a large scale event like May not killing someone who turned out to be dangerous would have large scale consequences.  Then add Doctor Fitz who is raised by a cold father instead of a warm mother but still has that romantic (ill cross worlds to find you) bone.  Add the idealistic Coulson who said no instead of yes at a fateful moment and add Ward who's life got changed by a woman with a concience instead of a psychopath.  

And even after all this add Aida someone manipulating the overall story.  And you have The Framework.

[Sandman]

On 2017-04-30 at 5:41 PM, TVSpectator said:

So, there is no brainwashing going on here- this is the real Fitz, per se, doing these things. 

I'm still not convinced that this is the case -- mostly because AIDA is not a reliable source of information.

36 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Anyone who watches The Man In The High Castle over on Amazon or who reads alternate fiction needs to accept the premise that a single pebble can change an ocean.  

"Needs to"? Only if the writing convinces me of this.

[Raja]

30 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Anyone who watches The Man In The High Castle over on Amazon or who reads alternate fiction needs to accept the premise that a single pebble can change an ocean.     Changing a large scale event like May not killing someone who turned out to be dangerous would have large scale consequences.  Then add Doctor Fitz who is raised by a cold father instead of a warm mother but still has that romantic (ill cross worlds to find you) bone.  Add the idealistic Coulson who said no instead of yes at a fateful moment and add Ward who's life got changed by a woman with a concience instead of a psychopath.  

And even after all this add Aida someone manipulating the overall story.  And you have The Framework.

I think that as viewers we are having a big problem with the divergent point being inside of the Agents of SHIELD time frame and not say the Agent Carter time frame. That Mac and Coulson can remember freedom makes us wonder how the world could have turned upside down so fast. Perhaps Project Insight went forward and the mass assassinations by Hydra happened but they have not told us that. Just that an Inhuman killed a bunch of kids ten years ago and humanity said SHIELD failed us now it is the Nazis turn "Hail Hydra". Sure it has happened to real life societies over and over again last century but we want to think, no that can't happen to us.

[Raja]

22 minutes ago, doram said:

OMG, that would be brilliant and would really up the stakes of this. Having Fitzler get reformed in the "real world" would be an amazing arc that could last the entirety of the rest of the show's run.

Plus this storyline needs permanent stakes. 

My speculation is that the permanent stakes are personal FitzSimmons  doesn't come out of this at best we get Leopold the Doctor becomes the latest of two heads step forward for the eternal enemy Hydra 

[Captain Carrot]

On 4/30/2017 at 0:18 PM, Sandman said:

Why does AIDA require a repressive totalitarian regime? The Fitz we know might have been just as motivated to save the life of someone he loved (we've seen exactly the lengths that Fitz will go to), but I don't believe the Fitz we know could love someone as selfish and cruel as AIDA has proven to be. It's one thing to say that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s failure to stop Hydra led to its ascendancy and the totalitarian culture in place in the Framework -- but Madame Hydra is in charge, so this arrangement must serve her purpose somehow. Maybe she's just exploiting an opportunity, but if so, I think having a morally bankrupt Doctor in love with her serves her ends better than Real Fitz ever would. The Doctor clearly doesn't balk at whatever ends-justifying-means rationalization Madame Hydra "lives" by. 

AIDA said that the world of the framework is based on algorithms, so May saving that child led directly to Hydra winning the war. I don't know if they'll get into it, but I think the truth is more complicated. The current world was probably just one possible result of May's actions, and something fixed the odds to get the worst possible end result. The question is was this something AIDA setting up the world that would best suit her plan? Or is it the natural result of creating the framework based on Darkhold knowledge, and AIDA is just taking advantage of the world created in the framework. If it's the former, then removing AIDA from the framework could allow for coarse correction. However, if probabilities are always weighted towards evil...then I hope that the NPC's aren't sentient because things won't get any better.

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, Raja said:

I think that as viewers we are having a big problem with the divergent point being inside of the Agents of SHIELD time frame and not say the Agent Carter time frame. That Mac and Coulson can remember freedom makes us wonder how the world could have turned upside down so fast. Perhaps Project Insight went forward and the mass assassinations by Hydra happened but they have not told us that. Just that an Inhuman killed a bunch of kids ten years ago and humanity said SHIELD failed us now it is the Nazis turn "Hail Hydra". Sure it has happened to real life societies over and over again last century but we want to think, no that can't happen to us.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

AIDA said that the world of the framework is based on algorithms, so May saving that child led directly to Hydra winning the war. I don't know if they'll get into it, but I think the truth is more complicated. The current world was probably just one possible result of May's actions, and something fixed the odds to get the worst possible end result. The question is was this something AIDA setting up the world that would best suit her plan? Or is it the natural result of creating the framework based on Darkhold knowledge, and AIDA is just taking advantage of the world created in the framework. If it's the former, then removing AIDA from the framework could allow for coarse correction. However, if probabilities are always weighted towards evil...then I hope that the NPC's aren't sentient because things won't get any better.

 

 

Yeah, where are people like Iron Man, Fury, Maria Hill, Black Widow, Captain America, The Hulk (which was seen to have been in Hulk form since at least 2010 or even a bit before that since the movie took place in the middle of his international manhunt for him), Thor, Hawkeye, etc...? If it was supposedly base on an "algorithms" that were supposedly base on the real MCU universe then where are the characters that actually stopped Hydra from taking over? It wasn't Coulson, Coulson failed his mission, Victoria Hand died at the hands of Ward, while Coulson and his team were left running from Talbot's group that was commissioned to arrest them. This is literally Season 1 canon but this arc fails to mention the ones who actually did stop Hydra from succeeding. Instead, it says that a literal Inhuman girl and an incident about 10 years ago (roughly 2008) were the sole cause of Hydra taking over. Although, another fact that this show seems to miss is that the public seems to be well aware of who Captain America was and who he was fighting (prior to The Winter Solider). It just seems kind of weird that they would allow/give control over to a group strongly associated with Nazi Germany. 

 

I get that "but it can't happen here" but still this, to me, is stretching it to a max. Also, why was May okay with working for Hydra once they took over and didn't join the resistance?

Edited May 3, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Kel Varnsen]

On 02/05/2017 at 8:59 PM, TVSpectator said:

 

Yeah, where are people like Iron Man, Fury, Maria Hill, Black Widow, Captain America, The Hulk (which was seen to have been in Hulk form since at least 2010 or even a bit before that since the movie took place in the middle of his international manhunt for him), Thor, Hawkeye, etc...? If it was supposedly base on an "algorithms" that were supposedly base on the real MCU universe then where are the characters that actually stopped Hydra from taking over? It wasn't Coulson, Coulson failed his mission, Victoria Hand died at the hands of Ward, while Coulson and his team were left running from Talbot's group that was commissioned to arrest them. This is literally Season 1 canon but this arc fails to mention the ones who actually did stop Hydra from succeeding. Instead, it says that a literal Inhuman girl and an incident about 10 years ago (roughly 2008) were the sole cause of Hydra taking over. Although, another fact that this show seems to miss is that the public seems to be well aware of who Captain America was and who he was fighting (prior to The Winter Solider). It just seems kind of weird that they would allow/give control over to a group strongly associated with Nazi Germany. 

My theory is that without Coulson signing up for SHIELD he is not there to help Pepper Potts escape from the Iron Monger. So she is not able to help Iron Man defeat him (so at least no Iron Man in The Avengers). Not sure how the Chautari invasion goes down though maybe the rest of the Avengers save the world and then Project Insight takes them out.

[Raja]

37 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

My theory is that without Coulson signing up for SHIELD he is not there to help Pepper Potts escape from the Iron Monger. So she is not able to help Iron Man defeat him (so at least no Iron Man in The Avengers). Not sure how the Chautari invasion goes down though maybe the rest of the Avengers save the world and then Project Insight takes them out.

My theory. Unlike most science fiction based upon science fact that if they are able to travel interstellar space then our puny nukes are nothing to such technology, a single porthole in New York gets taken out by the SHIELD/Hydra nuke. In the framework world, beyond an Inhuman going on a child killing spree you have people who let it be known were Hydra as the heroes of New York and saved humanity

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, Raja said:

My theory. Unlike most science fiction based upon science fact that if they are able to travel interstellar space then our puny nukes are nothing to such technology, a single porthole in New York gets taken out by the SHIELD/Hydra nuke. In the framework world, beyond an Inhuman going on a child killing spree you have people who let it be known were Hydra as the heroes of New York and saved humanity

Forgot about the nuke, but that works enough for me. Especially if there is no Agent Coulson, then he can't get killed by Loki and become a focal point to make all the other avengers fight. Although it does make me wonder, if Hydra is running the show, is The Winter Soldier their greatest hero?

[Raja]

9 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Forgot about the nuke, but that works enough for me. Especially if there is no Agent Coulson, then he can't get killed by Loki and become a focal point to make all the other avengers fight. Although it does make me wonder, if Hydra is running the show, is The Winter Soldier their greatest hero?

I don't know, maybe he stays the black ops assassin. Much like in US Armed Forces since Mogadishu if something happens publically and in the press there is SEAL Team 6, much like say Captain America in his loud blue suit. but the we also have a Delta Force who do whatever they do and disappear much like The Winter Soldier, who only The Black Widow said really existed before Hydra emerged in the main MCU. Would he go back to the shadows for further missions or be brought into the light as a hero of WWII back for the Hydra revolution?

 

Depends upon the follow up story if there was a "What If" to companion the Framework story pod/arc.

[TVSpectator]

On 9/2/2017 at 10:15 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

My theory is that without Coulson signing up for SHIELD he is not there to help Pepper Potts escape from the Iron Monger. So she is not able to help Iron Man defeat him (so at least no Iron Man in The Avengers). Not sure how the Chautari invasion goes down though maybe the rest of the Avengers save the world and then Project Insight takes them out.

I really don't know. I mean I guess the MCU timeline is that the Avengers happen in 2009 now (since Spider-Man Homecoming had that one weird time card) and that the Bahrain incident gets to be pushed back to 2007/2008. That being said, I just can't buy that Coulson is the single reason why the MCU isn't the world where Hydra lost. There are so many other things happening that it's hard for me to believe that Coulson not being in SHIELD would lead to the world like that. Personally, I feel like the writers on AoS just tend to inflate their main characters to a point where it becomes unbelievable. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by TVSpectator

[hello]

Quote

There are so many other things happening that it's hard for me to believe that Coulson not being in SHIELD would lead to the world like that

It was all of them, but mostly May - not Coulson. In the real world May killed the girl in Bahrain who was turning adults into murder-bots. In the Framework she brought the child to the US and they tried to give her a normal life in Boston but the kid went on a destruction spree instead, which HYDRA used to spread enough anti-Inhuman propaganda to sweep into power.