S12.E17: The British Invasion

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think he is. I don't think that it's ever been stated outright that he is considered a BMoL by the others. He told Mary in this episode that he and Mick were both "survivors" when she asked if they were friends which could have meant that they both survived their stretches at that Bizarro World Hogwarts, but it could mean something else, too.

This is the line:  "More survivors than friends. We were in school together." 

I think the "survived" was meant to say he also survived some test of allegiance to graduate Hogwarts Horror Academy. I actually got the impression the kids killing kids was more a backstory for Ketch than Mick in the end. 

[rue721]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not only unsustainable, but then Mick and that other kid should have figured it out by then.  You can't keep a secret that big in a school that I'm assuming is fairly small.

Maybe the kids at that school are very prone to "animal attacks." SO MANY "animal attacks"!

I don't think there's a good practical reason to invest years into birthing/raising/educating a kid just to order him to be murdered by a classmate on the dubious idea that that will inspire obedience/loyalty/whatever in the classmate, but eh. It doesn't bother me that much because I think Horror Hogworts is such a silly premise all together that I'm not really looking for rationality in it.

I kind of wish that they'd taken a full Monty Python tone in regard to the BMOL in this episode, because I think that then I would have straight up enjoyed all the absurd, silly things that they were showing us about how the BMOL functions, instead of just tolerating it.

Although, I liked Mick in these last couple episodes, and I think the actor who plays Ketch is doing a great job, so I was able to tolerate the BMOL stuff no problem even as it was, anyway ;)

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think there's a good practical reason to invest years into birthing/raising/educating a kid just to order him to be murdered by a classmate on the dubious idea that that will inspire obedience/loyalty/whatever in the classmate, but eh. It doesn't bother me that much because I think Horror Hogworts is such a silly premise all together that I'm not really looking for rationality in it.

Yeah, it pretty much seems to be in the same vein of Yellow Eyes making deals with people who in 10 years might have a child he could feed demon blood to so that 23 years later he could get all these kids to fight each other to prove which was the the strongest or the best suitable vessel for Lucifer even though the only vessel that would've been appropriate in the end was one who got killed in the prize fight three years earlier.

As I've said before, there's really no place for logic or reason when it comes to this show! ;)

[patty1h]

It bugged me that the actress who played Mrs. Hess looked so familiar -- she also played Lilah's mother in "Faith".   Sorry if this was already brought up - I scanned through this thread really fast.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, patty1h said:

It bugged me that the actress who played Mrs. Hess looked so familiar -- she also played Lilah's mother in "Faith".   Sorry if this was already brought up - I scanned through this thread really fast.

I thought she looked familiar, too, but then I decided that she just reminded me of Naomi.  The jawline is similar and the matter-of-fact speech/order giving.  I knew it wasn't that actress, but thanks for telling me who it was, since IMDB didn't have her listed.

[Writing Wrongs]

I really dislike Mary. I don't get what her problem is. Why she can't be with her sons and be happy that she's fucking alive?

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I really dislike Mary. I don't get what her problem is. Why she can't be with her sons and be happy that she's fucking alive?

This gives me a thought that maybe subconsciously Mary actually isn't happy to be alive. Maybe she's starting to feel a bit like Dean in s1 and s2 with "What's dead should stay dead" in that Dean believed he should have died in Faith which is one of the big reasons he felt compelled to trade his soul for Sam's life.

I think it would be a big improvement if they actually maybe addressed that Mary really DOES believe and feel she has NO place in this world but she isn't ready to leave but doesn't want to be here.

It would go along with Cas still not believing he has a place with the boys (which is IMO still crappy writing to create angst) and a parallel with Gavin feeling like he didn't fit in.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This gives me a thought that maybe subconsciously Mary actually isn't happy to be alive. Maybe she's starting to feel a bit like Dean in s1 and s2 with "What's dead should stay dead" in that Dean believed he should have died in Faith which is one of the big reasons he felt compelled to trade his soul for Sam's life.

I think it would be a big improvement if they actually maybe addressed that Mary really DOES believe and feel she has NO place in this world but she isn't ready to leave but doesn't want to be here.

It would go along with Cas still not believing he has a place with the boys (which is IMO still crappy writing to create angst) and a parallel with Gavin feeling like he didn't fit in.

I think Mary was definitely feeling that in "Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox" but saw her boys needed her for a while.  If she thinks simply killing all the monsters and then dying again is a good idea, it's not.  But I could see her being that way.

They've definitely shown her favor Dean's personality w/ comfort items: food & sex.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I think Mary was definitely feeling that in "Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox" but saw her boys needed her for a while.  If she thinks simply killing all the monsters and then dying again is a good idea, it's not.  But I could see her being that way.

The problem is that she IS NOT spending time with her boys. That is the thing they need from her. They don't need her to exterminate all the monsters.  So if that is what she thinks is their need, then she needs to tell the boys this "minor' detail.

[rue721]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This gives me a thought that maybe subconsciously Mary actually isn't happy to be alive.

Not just subconsciously, I think. Straight up not happy.

She has been pretty unhappy about coming back to life/leaving Heaven pretty much since it happened. And then she was pretty ready to shoot herself when Billie asked. She's not really willing to look at Sam and Dean as her sons, even though she has given some lipservice to it.

I guess she's moving on (slowly), though, if she's not wearing her wedding ring anymore? And apparently is unwilling to be AS distant from her sons as Ketch was hinting (post coital) that she should be?

(BTW eww putting it that way makes me wonder even more what's going on with Ketch. Why was he lying there, naked and presumably still in the afterglow, congratulating her about dumping her sons and pushing her about how she chose to be there with HIM and pushing her to tell him how much she likes HIM? Shades of awkwardly Oedipal, lol).

Honestly, I would like to know much more about what's going on in her head. I wish she were a larger character on the show and more attention were given to her state of mind and even just what she is literally doing at any given time, because this is super confusing.

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it would be a big improvement if they actually maybe addressed that Mary really DOES believe and feel she has NO place in this world but she isn't ready to leave but doesn't want to be here.

I think they've pretty much explicitly stated that from almost the beginning of the season. The way she left in The Foundry, the Asa Fox episode all the way up until she signed up with the Brits at the end of First Blood. IMO, what she's doing with the BMoL is just distraction. It allows herself to keep busy and not have to think about how she doesn't fit. I think she would've killed herself long ago if it wasn't for knowing it would devastate Sam and Dean.

Edited April 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

This is the line:  "More survivors than friends. We were in school together." 

I think the "survived" was meant to say he also survived some test of allegiance to graduate Hogwarts Horror Academy. I actually got the impression the kids killing kids was more a backstory for Ketch than Mick in the end. 

Ah, I didn't hear that last part. So he's probably more of an assassin than anything else because I think he took orders from Mick and he clearly took them from the Hess woman. He even looks to take orders and from what he told Dean that's how he likes it. He is obviously more of a field operative and much more akin to a hunter than Mick ever was. I think he even said something to Mick in one of the previous episodes about it being "dirty" out in the real world and how Mick wouldn't know.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think they've pretty much explicitly stated that from almost the beginning of the season. The way she left in The Foundry, the Asa Fox episode all the way up until she signed up with the Brits at the end of First Blood. IMO, what she's doing with the BMoL is just distraction. It allows herself to keep busy and not have to think about how she doesn't fit. I think she would've killed herself long ago if it wasn't for knowing it would devastate Sam and Dean.

I  guess I'm the dumb bunny viewer then because I did not think it was explicit at all after Asa Fox.  MY impression in First Blood was that Mary was making a sacrifice to save her boys; that she was making a logical choice that she should be the Winchester to die given her situation, not that she wanted to die per se.  

Maybe Sam Smith is a better nuanced actor and I'm missing that she's playing that subtext.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Ah, I didn't hear that last part. So he's probably more of an assassin than anything else because I think he took orders from Mick and he clearly took them from the Hess woman. He even looks to take orders and from what he told Dean that's how he likes it. He is obviously more of a field operative and much more akin to a hunter than Mick ever was. I think he even said something to Mick in one of the previous episodes about it being "dirty" out in the real world and how Mick wouldn't know.

I think Ketch is more a hunter than a nerd MoL.

I got that impression when the show kept paralleling him to Dean and Mick to Sam driving home the tired false narrative of Dean (Ketch)=brawn and Sam(Mick) = brains.

I don't LIKE IT ALL and I don't think it is actually  born out throughout the show but show keeps reverting back to that nonsense narrative time and again and especially in the #GodsTheyAreTheWorst Duo episodes.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So he's probably more of an assassin than anything else because I think he took orders from Mick and he clearly took them from the Hess woman. He even looks to take orders and from what he told Dean that's how he likes it. He is obviously more of a field operative and much more akin to a hunter than Mick ever was. I think he even said something to Mick in one of the previous episodes about it being "dirty" out in the real world and how Mick wouldn't know.

I agree he's more of a field agent. It seems everyone takes orders from someone, though. I mean, Mick was taking orders from Hess too and Hess was getting her orders from the Old Men. I think it's just that Ketch happened to be below Mick in the chain of command--not anymore, though--not that he wasn't a BMoL himself.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I got that impression when the show kept paralleling him to Dean and Mick to Sam driving home the tired false narrative of Dean (Ketch)=brawn and Sam(Mick) = brains.

I don't think the show was paralleling Ketch and Dean, although I think *Ketch* was trying to get Dean to identify with him and get chummy with him.

I think that the BMOL initially thought that Ketch would be a better recruiter/handler for Dean, maybe because they're both macho or whatever, so they sent him to go recruit Dean with that scotch. At the same time, they were positioning Mick as Sam's recruiter/handler, in the recruitment drive that Mary took him to at the BMOL HQ.

But ultimately, Dean didn't bite at Ketch's pitch, whereas Sam did bite at Mick's, and then Dean got on board with Sam -- so Mick ended up as both Sam and Dean's handler. I think Mick even referred to himself as their handler in this episode? In the confrontation with Hess before Mick got shot?

Mick was Sam and Dean's liaison with the BMOL, which is why him going native mean that Sam and Dean needed to be cut loose (ie, killed). Ketch is fine to be given that job, because he's not Dean's handler (I say Dean specifically, because it seemed like he was initially assigned to recruit/assign Dean specifically). 

I think probably Mary is going to kill Ketch in the clinch, but that's just pure speculation based on them apparently setting up that he's falling for her (and therefore, she's his weak spot).

In terms of the BMOL's hierarchy, I'm really not sure where Ketch and Mick fall in relation to each other. Ketch apparently has agents working under him, like Toni. I think he's supposed to be head of some kind of ops team. Mick didn't seem higher up than Ketch to me, so much as they seemed like colleagues. Mick was always worried about writing reports or whatever, which Ketch doesn't seem to have to do. I think they may have just been in different roles within operations, but with Mick more as part of "corporate" and Ketch as part of a team "on-site."

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think the show was paralleling Ketch and Dean, although I think *Ketch* was trying to get Dean to identify with him and get chummy with him.

Maybe it was more of a mirror to Dean but it's the tropes of brawn vs brains in this show. It's done with guest characters who are there to either parallel and/or mirror the brothers.  This is nothing new.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe it was more of a mirror to Dean but it's the tropes of brawn vs brains in this show. It's done with guest characters who are there to either parallel and/or mirror the brothers.  This is nothing new.

I agree, this is usually a clumsy "parallel". Though at least Ketch gets to kill things and be relevant so at this point, he`d be a bad mirror for Dean.

The only thing I didn`t hate in this episode was that while Dean once again got no kill, at least noone else took out Dagon either. Not that I especially find the character interesting but I wanted to throw something when I saw Sam with the Colt. When Dagon pulled that disappering act, I bascially said "hallelujah".   

Edited April 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Mick Lady]

14 hours ago, G-Man said:

Just like the birth order Michael being insane inside the cage is also a continuity fail back in season 4 and 5 it was stated(by Lucifer himself) that he couldn't do a single thing to stop his elder brother from beating him down and cast him out of heaven. Now in s11 and 12 Lucifer is suddenly strong enough to be able tooverpower and  torture him to the point where even God couldnt fix him.

 

And SPEAKING of the cage! Is Michael/Adam in it? He wasn't when they broke Luci out. Why didn't they gat Adam out too? I thought we'd see him again after Fan Fiction included Adam. The Boys just seemed to have completely forgotten him!

Looks like Luci will soon be free, and I have no interest in this story. But with luck, the writer may forget about him completely, like they have so many other things on this show. 

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, it pretty much seems to be in the same vein of Yellow Eyes making deals with people who in 10 years might have a child he could feed demon blood to so that 23 years later he could get all these kids to fight each other to prove which was the the strongest or the best suitable vessel for Lucifer even though the only vessel that would've been appropriate in the end was one who got killed in the prize fight three years earlier.

As I've said before, there's really no place for logic or reason when it comes to this show! ;)

One hell of a run on sentence Triple D! ; )

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

And SPEAKING of the cage! Is Michael/Adam in it? He wasn't when they broke Luci out. Why didn't they gat Adam out too? I thought we'd see him again after Fan Fiction included Adam. The Boys just seemed to have completely forgotten him!

That wasn't the  actual cage in Devil in the Details.  It was some kind of re-creation, so Michael is still in the actual cage I think.. And is still in Adam, theoretically. I think it's possible Adam is either long dead or so buried under Michael, he'll never see the light of day. 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

And SPEAKING of the cage! Is Michael/Adam in it? He wasn't when they broke Luci out. Why didn't they gat Adam out too? I thought we'd see him again after Fan Fiction included Adam. The Boys just seemed to have completely forgotten him!

He's in the cage.  We just didn't see him. The cage that Lucifer was in while speaking with Sam was a temporary cage that Rowena pulled him into.

[Mick Lady]

Thanks catrox and Katy M! As soon as you two reminded me, it came back to me.

I have a hard time keeping up, but I have you guys (and Super-wiki) to help, Thank Chuck!

[DittyDotDot]

37 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

One hell of a run on sentence Triple D! ; )

I know, isn't it glorious? ;)

[Mick Lady]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I know, isn't it glorious? ;)

Made the point you were trying to convey perfectly! Honestly, it was masterful!

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe it was more of a mirror to Dean but it's the tropes of brawn vs brains in this show. It's done with guest characters who are there to either parallel and/or mirror the brothers.  This is nothing new.

I think that the contrast that the show is setting up with Ketch is between Mary's deteriorating, cold relationship with her sons and her growing, warm/"steamy" relationship with him. Ketch was talking in this episode about Mary cutting her sons loose while literally getting into bed with him. He has told her before that it's either the Winchesters or the BMOL, she can't devote herself to both. Etc.

I don't want to say that Ketch is supposed to be a direct mirror to her sons exclusively, though, because I also wonder about John and about how Mary is feeling about being a widow. The show really doesn't seem to want to even touch the subject, which I don't get. But I would think that it's a big deal if Mary is sleeping with ANYONE seeing as she only found out that she'd lost her husband what, six months ago in show time? It's actually probably a healthy/good thing that she's able to move on, but I am really curious about how she went from leaving a John in heaven who she loved and who was in his prime, to screwing Ketch on the sly (and telling him it was meaningless) in this episode! What happened during these few months that got her from Point A to Point B?

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

but I am really curious about how she went from leaving a John in heaven who she loved and who was in his prime,

She wasn't with John in Heaven. She was with Sam and Dean.  No one knows where John is. At least they never mentioned she was with John in Heaven, AFAIK.

Edited April 7, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She wasn't with John in Heaven. She was with Sam and Dean.  No one knows where John is.

Thought she had memorex!John, too?

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Thought she had memorex!John, too?

It's never been said that she did. It seems to me if she did that would have been stated clearly and that she would have told the boys she had John in Heaven too.

They had the chance to address it directly in Mamma Mia when Mary mentioned dreaming about John. I would think Dean would have asked if John was in Heaven with or Mary would have offered the information.

Edited April 7, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

I thought she mentioned all three of them being there (or at least Memorex versions of them, anyway) when she was describing heaven in the first few episodes of the season? I though that's why she was waxing on about what an amazing father John was, etc. Can't look it up now though, unfortunately.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought she mentioned all three of them being there (or at least Memorex versions of them, anyway) when she was describing heaven in the first few episodes of the season? I though that's why she was waxing on about what an amazing father John was, etc. Can't look it up now though, unfortunately.

From the Foundry:

 

Mary: I'm not. I miss John. I miss my boys.

SAM WALKS IN AND JOINS DEAN AND MARY

Sam: We're right here, mom.

Mary: I know. In my head. But I'm still mourning them as I knew them. My baby Sam. My little boy Dean. Just feels like yesterday, we were together in heaven, and now...I'm her, and John is gone, and they're gone. And every moment I spend with you reminds me every moment I lost with them.

 

I think that implies the Memorex John was there, too.  I don't see any reason why she wouldn't have included him in her Heaven memories.  At least at some point in the 12 years or so that she was there.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought she mentioned all three of them being there (or at least Memorex versions of them, anyway) when she was describing heaven in the first few episodes of the season? I though that's why she was waxing on about what an amazing father John was, etc. Can't look it up now though, unfortunately.

She did. From The Foundry just before she left:

"I know. In my head. But I'm still mourning them as I knew them. My baby Sam. My little boy Dean. Just feels like yesterday we were together in Heaven, and now I'm here, and John is gone and they're gone. And every moment I spend with you reminds me of every moment I lost with them. And I thought hunting, working, would clear my head..."

She doesn't specifically say she was in Heaven with John, but it is implied her Heaven included some version of John. Probably not John himself, but as you said, a memorex version of him.

ETA: or what @Katy M said.

Edited April 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

She did. From The Foundry just before she left:

"I know. In my head. But I'm still mourning them as I knew them. My baby Sam. My little boy Dean. Just feels like yesterday we were together in Heaven, and now I'm here, and John is gone and they're gone. And every moment I spend with you reminds me of every moment I lost with them. And I thought hunting, working, would clear my head..."

She doesn't specifically say she was in Heaven with John, but it is implied her Heaven included some version of John. Probably not John himself, but as you said, a memorex version of him.

I never ONCE took it that Mary was referring to John being in Heaven with her, because of how his name was placed in her wording.

I always took her to be saying, 'It feels like just yesterday I was with my little boys in Heaven' and I am mourning them' and only them. I never took it she had a memorex!John with her.  I always took that to mean that when Mary died that she thought John survived and then she realized John wasn't alive anymore which is "and John is gone".

Always interesting how intepretations can vary so widely. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never ONCE took it that Mary was referring to John being in Heaven with her, because of how his name was placed in her wording.

I always took her to be saying, 'It feels like just yesterday I was with my little boys in Heaven' and I am mourning them' and only them. I never took it she had a memorex!John with her.  I always took that to mean that when Mary died that she thought John survived and then she realized John wasn't alive anymore which is "and John is gone".

Always interesting how intepretations can vary so widely. 

I don't know. Personally, I'm surprised she even remembers Heaven, but if Heaven is a stroll down memory lane, I seems she would have memories of John she was reliving, along with the memories of wee Sam and Dean? 

But, like I said, she doesn't specify, so... .

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

but if Heaven is a stroll down memory lane, I seems she would have memories of John she was reliving, along with the memories of wee Sam and Dean? 

Unless their marriage was in the crapper by the time she died and that's why John moved out in Dean's Heaven memory. Like maybe Mary was off hunting a lot and it put a strain on their marriage.  Her hunting after the fact COULD really reframe the following from DSoTM

Quote

DEAN: Sam. Please. One minute.

Sam nods reluctantly. Mary ruffles Dean’s hair as she moves away from the table. The phone rings and Dean turns to watch her answer it.

MARY: (on phone) Hello? … No, John. … We’re not having this conversation again. … Think about what? … You’ve two boys at home. …

DEAN: I remember this. Mom and Dad were fighting and then he moved out for a couple days.

SAM: Dad always said they had the perfect marriage.

DEAN: It wasn’t perfect until after she died.

MARY: (on phone) Fine. Then don’t. … There’s nothing more to talk about.

Mary hangs up the phone and turns away from the table. She sniffs as if she’s fighting back tears.

SAM: What happens next?

Dean goes to her and hugs her.

DEAN: It’s okay, Mom. Dad still loves you. I love you, too. I’ll never leave you.

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless their marriage was in the crapper by the time she died and that's why John moved out in Dean's Heaven memory. Like maybe Mary was off hunting a lot and it put a strain on their marriage.  Her hunting after the fact COULD really reframe the following from DSoTM

She was hunting long before that time.  That flashback from Asa Fox was from when Dean was about a year or two old.  That memory was obviously from after Sam was born.  If she and John were fighting over her unexplained absences that had been happening for a few years, hardly seems fair for her to put the blame on him, which she definitely seems to be doing.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless their marriage was in the crapper by the time she died and that's why John moved out in Dean's Heaven memory. Like maybe Mary was off hunting a lot and it put a strain on their marriage.

She'd still have memories of John, though--good and bad--and, her memories of Sam and Dean would include John. I'd be very surprised she didn't have some version of John crop up in her memories at some point in the 10-plus years she was in Heaven. 

TBH, I don't think it matters to the point @rue721 was raising, though. For Mary, it's only been a few months that John has been dead and she's been a widow. Whether the marriage was strained or not, they were married for almost 10 years, that's generally not something easily moved on from. Plus, she grappling with being alive all the sudden and her kids suddenly being grown men and all the things in their lives she never got to experience... .

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

The show really doesn't seem to want to even touch the subject, which I don't get. But I would think that it's a big deal if Mary is sleeping with ANYONE seeing as she only found out that she'd lost her husband what, six months ago in show time? It's actually probably a healthy/good thing that she's able to move on, but I am really curious about how she went from leaving a John in heaven who she loved and who was in his prime, to screwing Ketch on the sly (and telling him it was meaningless) in this episode! What happened during these few months that got her from Point A to Point B?

Based on how she let Ketch down, I personally don't think she's moved on from John and is ready to have a real relationship, but I'd say she was blowing off steam with Ketch. Or, maybe she just needed to feel something right then? But, as far as we know, it's her first...um..."cup of sugar" she's had since John and since she's been back, maybe more than the post-coital talk could've been helpful?

[catrox14]

This is the best thing in the whole episode for me, non-Samleen division.

 

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She was hunting long before that time.  That flashback from Asa Fox was from when Dean was about a year or two old.  That memory was obviously from after Sam was born.  If she and John were fighting over her unexplained absences that had been happening for a few years, hardly seems fair for her to put the blame on him, which she definitely seems to be doing.

Unless she kept hunting right up until that phone call. 

If she's feeling guilty for hiding her hunting, and she needed John to be with the boys so she could pursue a case, she might get all passive aggressive about it.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless she kept hunting right up until that phone call. 

I don't know if she could have been realistically hunting at that point.  She would have given birth within 6 months.  They seemed happy enough the night Sam died, so I'm going to go 5 months or less.  Hunting is really physically intense.  I think you might need a longer maternity leave than you would for an office job.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if she could have been realistically hunting at that point.  She would have given birth within 6 months.  They seemed happy enough the night Sam died, so I'm going to go 5 months or less.  Hunting is really physically intense.  I think you might need a longer maternity leave than you would for an office job.

Women have given birth and gotten back into physical condition pretty fast. Look at female athletes. Mary seemed like she kept in good shape. Besides, hunting isn't ONLY about physicality. If she shoots a werewolf from a distance with a silver bullet after investigating, no problem.

People in shitty marriages can have moments of happiness especially if they are TRYING to make it work and it's a small thing like putting their children to bed. That doesn't mean resentments don't linger and it doesn't change any underlying issues.

It's always been presumed that John was either off working and didn't put the kids first or worse out doing unsavory shenanigans.  I can see a scenario wherein John found out Mary was sneaking away. He gets pissed off and decides to go away for a couple of days to clear his head because he thinks she's having an affair. But really  Mary gets a case and she can't say no for whatever reasons, and she guilt trips John about not being there for the boys. 

I hate retcons and I can make that work.

[mommo]

I can't help but wonder what the boy's reaction might be if they find out mommie dearest has been in bed with the BMOL in more ways than one.  Dean, especially, since he's seen the psycho in action and has the clearest memories of his mom and dad when he was little.  Bad move, Mary.  I don't buy that she's doing all this 'hunting' for the reasons she says, either.  I think psycho or not, Ketch has her number and his assessment of her is pretty spot on.  She wants to be loving family-first-loving-mom, but in reality, she's a hunter at heart.  Without her little boys and John, she'd just as soon hunt as be a mom to two grown men.  I just wish she'd be honest with them and herself and stop the subterfuge.

[ZennyKenny]

Sorry for the delayed response. I just got back from the hospital. Thursday night was pretty rough. Last thing I remember was uncontrolled vomiting after turning on the tv and finding out that Mary and Ketch slept together.

Full disclosure: I missed A LOT of the episode, so I don't know if they actually showed them having sex or not. I missed the entire first half, and the end. But still, just the scene with Ketch in bed talking to Mary was enough to ruin my night.

Ah, I see from reading the thread that they killed the one BMOL that I actually liked, Mick. Yeah, he was starting to develop a character arc... can't have that!

Ok. tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, because again, I missed it. Are you guys saying that the BMoL actually decided to completely wipe out all American hunters this episode? And if so, did the person saying it suddenly put his pinky to the edge of his mouth and look into the camera? Because that's some comical-level supervillainry right there.

*SIGH* Is it season 13 yet?

[Dobian]

When the toady got shot, I was waiting for Dean to say, "But you were top of your class at Kendrick!"

The more Mark Pellegrino as Lucifer, the better the show.  Probably my favorite current tv villain.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ok. tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, because again, I missed it. Are you guys saying that the BMoL actually decided to completely wipe out all American hunters this episode? And if so, did the person saying it suddenly put his pinky to the edge of his mouth and look into the camera? Because that's some comical-level supervillainry right there

Yes this is exactly what happened minus the pinky and the 1 MILLION DOLLARS ransom. Seriously

[bearcatfan]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

@Boopsahoy it's not an unpopular opinion with me!  I thought it was a good episode.  The "kill or be killed" Hogwarts IS an unsustainable concept but other than that, I was fine with it.  As for the rest of the negative comments .... there might be a pony in there somewhere but I can't really get the energy to respond. This forum has been overrun by an "it's all crap" mentality.   

Agree. I'm barely on here anymore because of it. This use to be a place where I came to decompress. Now, it raises my blood pressure.

If you watching to determine how the writers/director/whoever is screwing your favorite character, you are going to find it. It's called confirmation bias.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if she could have been realistically hunting at that point.  She would have given birth within 6 months.  They seemed happy enough the night Sam died, so I'm going to go 5 months or less.  Hunting is really physically intense.  I think you might need a longer maternity leave than you would for an office job.

Mary's continuing to hunt is a total retcon, IMO.  I know that we've tried to make it work somehow with the Mary we knew prior to this season, but it's never really worked for me.  That Mary seemed pretty damned determined to get away from the hunting life.  The Mary we're seeing this season is a completely different person from the one we were shown for the past 11 seasons.  

For someone who is supposed to be such a great hunter, she certainly has some bad instincts about people.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Women have given birth and gotten back into physical condition pretty fast. Look at female athletes. Mary seemed like she kept in good shape. Besides, hunting isn't ONLY about physicality. If she shoots a werewolf from a distance with a silver bullet after investigating, no problem.

People in shitty marriages can have moments of happiness especially if they are TRYING to make it work and it's a small thing like putting their children to bed. That doesn't mean resentments don't linger and it doesn't change any underlying issues.

It's always been presumed that John was either off working and didn't put the kids first or worse out doing unsavory shenanigans.  I can see a scenario wherein John found out Mary was sneaking away. He gets pissed off and decides to go away for a couple of days to clear his head because he thinks she's having an affair. But really  Mary gets a case and she can't say no for whatever reasons, and she guilt trips John about not being there for the boys. 

I hate retcons and I can make that work.

Well, I hate retcons, too, and I can't make it work.  Even, if she managed to get all no impact hunts so that John wouldn't notice any injuries, how did she account for all that time.  We've never seen a hunt take less than 4 hours.  She has children to watch.   Werewolf hunts can only be done in the middle of the night.  Any sane person would be perfectly justified in assuming affair with so much time unaccounted for, most of it at night.  Ghost hunts?  Sam and Dean apparently had many arrests for grave desecrations. Not to mention, ghosts are big on throwing hunters into trees. Shifter hunts? Downright irresponsible.  If one managed to take her skin, they would know about her defenseless kids.  Vampire hunts?  Way too hands on. 

 

57 minutes ago, mommo said:

I can't help but wonder what the boy's reaction might be if they find out mommie dearest has been in bed with the BMOL in more ways than one.  Dean, especially, since he's seen the psycho in action and has the clearest memories of his mom and dad when he was little.

I think it would be hypocritical for either one of them to get upset over that.  Sam slept with a demon.  Dean slept with an Amazon.  They've both had numerous one night stands.  Sex is not an emotional commitment to either of them.

3 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Agree. I'm barely on here anymore because of it. This use to be a place where I came to decompress. Now, it raises my blood pressure.

If you watching to determine how the writers/director/whoever is screwing your favorite character, you are going to find it. It's called confirmation bias.

I liked it.  I generally try to find the positive.  Mostly my only negative from this season is the Mary hunting while married Rectcon.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

We've never seen a hunt take less than 4 hours.  She has children to watch.  

John? Neighbors? Daycare? There are options for her. Mary could go overnight and be done with a hunt.

[bearcatfan]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I liked it.  I generally try to find the positive.  Mostly my only negative from this season is the Mary hunting while married Rectcon.

It wasn't specific towards any one person but we've been overrun with people who "know" what's going to happen before the episode airs and then look for ways that their prediction comes true. This forum use to be fun. Even the Sam/Dean wars weren't too bad. Now it's constant bitching and I'm wondering why they are even watching.

[ZennyKenny]

14 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Agree. I'm barely on here anymore because of it. This use to be a place where I came to decompress. Now, it raises my blood pressure.

If you watching to determine how the writers/director/whoever is screwing your favorite character, you are going to find it. It's called confirmation bias.

Sure, but what if you're just trying to enjoy the characters but you can't because the writers keep killing them off?

But I hear you on the negativity. I think that there's positive comments, too. I especially like the people who break the episodes own by what they liked and didn't like.

That said, I was really happy that Eileen was back! So that's something that I enjoyed about the episode. But again... afraid to get too attached cos I'm like 87% sure they're just going to kill her off.