S01.E02: Episode 2

[OtterMommy]

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When an old friend arrives in town, Margaret's hopes for the Soho move rest on whether she can tempt him to invest, while Justice Cunliffe makes Lydia an intriguing offer.

[dleighg]

I can't believe I'm the first to comment. 

I was intrigued by the pronunciation by Margaret-- it sounded authentic -- regularly pronouncing "th" as "f"

with = wif for example.

Trying to figure out the relationship of Ned and Margaret; I assume he was a customer back in the day. Certainly caused some stress with her partner William. I appreciated how Lucy "took control" of her own maidenhead. 

I even got my DH to watch the first episode (I'd already watched it twice, I'm embarrassed to say-- but wanted subtitles the second time). Not sure he'll continue but he didn't run away.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

I appreciated how Lucy "took control" of her own maidenhead. 

Won't Renton notice that he's not getting what he's paid for?

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

Trying to figure out the relationship of Ned and Margaret; I assume he was a customer back in the day.

His daughter is named for Margaret, correct?

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Won't Renton notice that he's not getting what he's paid for?

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

I imagine that can be faked

[kieyra]

I'm all in with this weird little show. I even signed up for Hulu. 

Love the casting. They've pulled in people from a lot of my favorite shows (Penny Dreadful, Fleabag, Happy Valley) and a lot of interesting new faces. They're all eminently watchable. 

(Speaking of that, where have I seen the French woman before?)

And jeez, the cheekbones on that dominatrix.

The writing doesn't try to do too much, which is good because sometimes I worry they'll veer too far into Deadwood territory. I like that for the most part they're keeping it simple, but also not hitting you too hard over the head with anything. (Except the one slightly clunky line, "you're not a dog, you're a bitch".)

I like that Emily Lacey is turning the tables in her own way.

Interesting dynamic between the slaver (oh hey Neil from Happy Valley) and his wife and his children, including the resentful son. If that doesn't become significant later it'll still be a nice bit of character shading.

Oh, and is the blind bible-thumper lady's daughter developing a crush on one of the harlots? They definitely shared A Look.

@dleighg, I noticed the accents you mean right off. I'm American so I probably don't have the best ear, but I think Samantha Morton and Lady Sybil (sorry) are both doing really consistent-sounding "downmarket" accents, compared to Lady Quigley's stratosphere. Charlotte definitely sounds like she's Maggie's daughter, even though she's running around with baronets.

Or should I say, "wiv" baronets.

Edited April 6, 2017 by kieyra

[dleighg]

6 hours ago, kieyra said:

@dleighg, I noticed the accents you mean right off. I'm American so I probably don't have the best ear, but I think Samantha Morton and Lady Sybil (sorry) are both doing really consistent-sounding "downmarket" accents, compared to Lady Quigley's stratosphere. Charlotte definitely sounds like she's Maggie's daughter, even though she's running around with baronets.

 

I'm American too; I agree about the cast that the accent lends to the class of the person. 

[megsara]

Well, though it seemed obvious in ep 1, we got confirmation that Jacob is Margaret and Will's son.  The racial dynamics were interesting in this episode.  I felt for Will when Margaret casually mentioned Lennox having 1000 slaves and how that marked his success.  I'm curious about the history of Margaret and Will's relationship.  I do like that they seem to be equal partners - they certainly don't hold back when having their debates.  I also wondered if Lennox is the father of either Charlotte or Lucy.  There was a lot of history there.  Lennox's son is awful and I hope he gets comeuppance.  Ugh. I'd say Nancy can do it but he might end up liking it. On that note, I love Nancy.  

Mrs. Quigley and her son had a creepy vibe this ep - I doubt she's going to be happy with Emily's power over her son.  

[stanleyk]

I'm really enjoying this show. Sucked into all the different dynamics, curious to see how various relationships play out, and liking the nasty rivalry between Margaret and Lydia. I agree there is a weird vibe between the Quigleys - mamma's boy, I guess, or maybe something weirder.

And, boy howdy, was the kidnapping thing gross. At first I thought the judge (wasn't he the same one who fined Margaret in the first episode?) was seeking an actual child, so I was kind of relieved that the girl appeared to be of age, until I realized that what he was seeking was an unwilling virgin to rape. Not like Lydia had much to redeem her before, but that effing crazy...and apparently also what she did to Margaret, if Margaret had her up on kidnapping charges.

15 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Won't Renton notice that he's not getting what he's paid for?

Margaret didn't seem too concerned about that when she sold Lucy's virginity twice, so I'm guessing she's an old hand at faking virginity (and other things, of course). 

[dleighg]

So when Charles "tried out" Emily he held up what looked like a condom (but it didn't look like a modern one obviously). Also when one of the girls asked Lucy why she wasn't "helping out with the customers" she seemed to be rinsing a similar object-- any experts on ye olden times condoms here?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

36 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

Not like Lydia had much to redeem her before, but that effing crazy...and apparently also what she did to Margaret, if Margaret had her up on kidnapping charges.

Perhaps the kidnapping charges were for Charlotte?  Maybe Margaret, Lydia's surrogate daughter, was working for Lydia in some capacity and had her girls, Lydia's surrogate granddaughters, with her, and Lydia decided it was time for Charlottes's debut as a younger age than Margaret wanted?  Maybe that's what caused Margaret to strike out on her own?  She has raised her daughters in a dignified manner more befitting Lydia's establishment.

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Lydia decided it was time for Charlottes's debut as a younger age than Margaret wanted? 

good thought; I recall that Charlotte said she was "out" at 12 or something like that; Lucy is clearly older so maybe that was the spark.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Just now, dleighg said:

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Lydia decided it was time for Charlottes's debut as a younger age than Margaret wanted? 

good thought; I recall that Charlotte said she was "out" at 12 or something like that; Lucy is clearly older so maybe that was the spark.

And Margaret was out at 10?

Edited April 6, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[nodorothyparker]

This is such a weird little show in that it manages to be wonderfully trashy and bawdy yet knows how to pick its spots to be surprisingly touching and thought-provoking.

I missed what made them decide one morning to go out looking for Mary Cooper.  Without going back and rewatching, I can only guess maybe Margaret or someone had heard she was sick and saw both the opportunity to do right by her and use her as they did to stick it to Lydia Quigley.  I liked her wake, even if it was exactly the sort of wake you would have expected working girls to throw for one of their own.  There was something really very lovely about them making the effort to honor her life properly when she otherwise would have been left to die and rot forgotten in an alley.

The family dynamics are definitely interesting.  Loved Emily calling out the Quigley son whose name I can't remember that he doesn't know what the feud is about either.  Loved Lucy taking control to give herself a first time story she can look back on amid all the buying and selling of her virginity.  Loved Margaret being briefly scandalized at the idea of being with another man for the first time in years before her business head prevailed.  I'm really really curious about the Lennox family situation and hope we see more of that.  The Lennox son is clearly a product of an earlier marriage and doesn't think much of slave owner daddy marrying a black woman and having children with her.  I assume that was still legal some places in the 1760s.

Charlotte is clearly going to have her hands full with George, who seems like he's about two steps away from going completely around the bend with possessive jealousy.  Even as she has to know what an advantageous setup it is for a woman of her birth, she seems just completely over it and George's pissy man servant certainly isn't helping matters any. 

Condoms at the time were either made of linen or animal intestines that had been soaked in lye.  They weren't exactly known for being foolproof in preventing pregnancy or disease but they were considered better than nothing, and yes, they did rinse them out and reuse them over and over.

[dleighg]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I missed what made them decide one morning to go out looking for Mary Cooper.  Without going back and rewatching, I can only guess maybe Margaret or someone had heard she was sick and saw both the opportunity to do right by her and use her as they did to stick it to Lydia Quigley.

I think that's just about exactly right. Thanks for the detail on condoms. Rinsing them out, lovely.

Edited April 6, 2017 by dleighg

[nodorothyparker]

Maybe I was paying more attention than I thought then.  Sometimes that happens.

[stanleyk]

8 hours ago, dleighg said:

good thought; I recall that Charlotte said she was "out" at 12 or something like that; Lucy is clearly older so maybe that was the spark.

I think that's possible, although in the first episode, I thought Charlotte threw a lot of hostility towards Margaret on that point. When they were discussing selling Lucy's virginity and Margaret was saying she wanted to wait, Charlotte looked daggers at her and said something like "You had me out at twelve." And I think Margaret said she was doing sealed bids for Lucy "like she did for Charlotte," or something along those lines. It doesn't preclude Lydia's involvement in selling Charlotte, but Charlotte at least appears to blame Margaret (and resent that Margaret held out longer before selling Lucy than she did for Charlotte.)

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Loved Lucy taking control to give herself a first time story she can look back on amid all the buying and selling of her virginity.

I liked this too, but it was also clear that she has picked up all the lessons of growing up in Margaret's house - she still made him pay. And with his food money too!

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Maybe I was paying more attention than I thought then.  Sometimes that happens.

I think it was the dominatrix who had the Mary Cooper idea. She and Maggie were brainstorming about what they could do for revenge, but like you I can't quite remember what this week's inciting incident was. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

She and Maggie were brainstorming about what they could do for revenge, but like you I can't quite remember what this week's inciting incident was. 

I think she's still mad about being arrested and having to pay a large fine, which resulted in her selling Lucy earlier than planned. Will ("Pa") was right that she should have let this go.  No good can come from poking Lydia.  (And Mary Cooper's death was not even Lydia's fault.)

[JennyExiled]

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Perhaps the kidnapping charges were for Charlotte?

Interesting! I had assumed the kidnapping charges were for Margaret herself, but this angle makes more sense.

I can't wait to find out the backstory there, as there's definitely more to their relationship than we've learned so far. 

[tennisgurl]

I wasn't sure about this show, but I decided to check out the two episode available on Hulu (my recommendations are very persuasive) and I like it a lot more then I expected to. Its not quite as tawdry as I expected, and I love how focused it is on the lives of the prostitutes and their lives and issues.

So much makeup back then! Charlotte really is lovely, she's basically the only person who can make the white makeup and powdered wig actually look good and not weird.

[Zima]

I like the show.

I predict that Charlotte and George's servant dude will fall for each other at some point. 

[kieyra]

17 hours ago, Zima said:

I like the show.

I predict that Charlotte and George's servant dude will fall for each other at some point. 

Interesting. I was getting a different read--that the servant dude had a thing for George himself and that was part of why hated Charlotte so much. 

[Silly Angel]

Loving this show but what keeps me breathlessly waiting for the next week is the moment when Florence Godbotherer's daughter goes over to the dark side. She's clearly fascinated by whoring and by whores. I can't imagine wha hell will break loose if Margaret or Lydia turn her out.

Also waiting to see if Charlotte is dumb enough to run off with the fancy man or be smart enough to retire from whoring and start a fancy-man's fancy house.

It's funny (not in a ha-ha way, but weird fact of life way) to see a girl as tremendously pretty as Alley Ho (the one the parson keeps asking for absolution via banging) lifting her skirt in the gutter for shillings when Margaret's place has its share of middling looking girls. I guess in a class-based society, she could never hope to be trained up to a better station of bawd, although Emily's making a go of it.

Then again, presumably the street girls keep what they make--the show has not addressed Big Pimpin' in the 18th Century--and better-kept brothel women are trapped into "paying off their debt." Still, ain't nobody getting rich from selling themselves.

I watched Maison Close, which Hulu also carries, for comparison, and while it's interesting and the costume and set porn are to die for, it is but a mere shadow of Harlots.

Note to self: Shadow of Harlots for next book title.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

During the first episode, I was amused by Haxby's obvious disdain for his master's mistress. He did everything short of roll his eyes like a teenager every time she entered the room or she was even mentioned. But this week things progressed and I can't decide whether he has a thing for Charlotte or George. Or maybe he's just one of those people who truly hates his job.

[legxleg]

The Mary Cooper song has been in my head on and off for *days* now. It shouldn't be that much of an earworm! 

[Arynm]

On 4/5/2017 at 10:22 PM, kieyra said:

(Speaking of that, where have I seen the French woman before?)

If you are talking about the brunette at Quiglys house, I remember her as the main model in The Collection.  Poppy Corby-Tuech. Gorgeous but such a bitch in every role I have seen her in.

[kieyra]

50 minutes ago, Arynm said:

If you are talking about the brunette at Quiglys house, I remember her as the main model in The Collection.  Poppy Corby-Tuech. Gorgeous but such a bitch in every role I have seen her in.

Thanks for the name; I'm embarrassed to say that it looks like I recognized her from a trashy show on E! called The Royals. :/

[Arynm]

3 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Thanks for the name; I'm embarrassed to say that it looks like I recognized her from a trashy show on E! called The Royals. :/

Ha! I also know her from that, I was trying to class it up a bit.

[kieyra]

6 minutes ago, Arynm said:

Ha! I also know her from that, I was trying to class it up a bit.

Feel free to join me at the "mildly embarrassed" table. 

Then again we're hooked on a show called Harlots. ;)

[dmc]

On 4/10/2017 at 3:05 PM, kieyra said:

Interesting. I was getting a different read--that the servant dude had a thing for George himself and that was part of why hated Charlotte so much. 

Really I think he likes lady caroline

[aradia22]

Interesting... there's a mafia-ish aspect to Quigley's girls servicing men in all these positions of power as William detailed. It provides her more protection than just paying people off.

I can already see Charlotte falling in love with the guy who carries sedan chairs and I think it's stupid. Lucy better not also fall in love with a stable boy.

Tell me the guy who plays Sir George (Hugh Skinner) doesn't look like the guy from 13 Going on 30 (Sam Ball). 

I still don't get Nancy's character but I'm glad Margaret has a friend.

There are curious number of women walking around unaccompanied. They aren't all harlots. 

Nathaniel is handsome but he seems like a bounder. Harriet is a layer of complication. I'm curious if they'll stick around. The show seems interested in discussing race but I don't know if they're equipped to do so or if they'll even spend the necessary amount of time delving into those issues. My guess is no.

I don't think Haxby is a butler. He seems more like a secretary.

Getting Mary off the street to get... guy whose name I don't know to write gossip about Quigley feels like a weird plan.

Was she washing out a used condom or somehow preparing it by soaking it in something like vinegar? Ew, either way.

The repressed moral reformer is bad at pretending to be blind. I didn't fully get it until well into this episode. She keeps looking directly at things.

Well, Lydia is certainly monstrous. Though I appreciate for once watching a show that didn't make me watch someone getting raped. 

I loved Charlotte's purple cloak with that dress. I'm ready for Margaret to get her girls in colorful finery unlike Quigley's girls and their insipid pastels. 

I wonder who fathered Charlotte and Lucy? I could see Nathaniel being Charlotte's father. 

I'm surprised Nathaniel gave up so easily just because Mary burst into the room.

What good is having a judge in your pocket if he doesn't enact your pointless vendettas?

Haxby is an ass. I'm glad she vomited in his hat. 

Even if it didn't start altruistically, I'm glad Margaret took care of Mary in her dying hours and they gave her a proper send off. Also, leaving her body outside Quigley's like that was a gangster move. Into this show getting more soapy. 

[aradia22]

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So when Charles "tried out" Emily he held up what looked like a condom (but it didn't look like a modern one obviously). Also when one of the girls asked Lucy why she wasn't "helping out with the customers" she seemed to be rinsing a similar object-- any experts on ye olden times condoms here?

Granted, this is all from romance novels but... I think the earliest condoms were made from sheep intestines. A lot of romance novels call them "French letters" but I don't know when that terminology started being used. Books set later will start discussing vulcanized rubber but I don't think that starts until at least the Victorian era. 

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Also waiting to see if Charlotte is dumb enough to run off with the fancy man or be smart enough to retire from whoring and start a fancy-man's fancy house.

I LOVE this idea.