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S06.E08: What Will We Do This Time About Adam?


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(edited)

I have never gotten the Hannah/Adam "love story" shtick ... all I saw was him using her as a f*** buddy and then when he started reaching acting success suddenly he didnt need her anymore. Plus he is kind of an asshole and not sincere, since he only wanted her after his break up with Mimi Rose. IRL i dont think they could ever have been a couple, Im just being real. ALSO what happened to Shoshana's speaking style? She suddenly started talking like a normal person at a normal speed this ep, it doesnt sound like her at all. 

Edited by Matias130
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(edited)

Finally was able to watch it uninterrupted, and my thoughts are - 

Ray/Abby - I wouldn't be surprised if that's Ray's happy ending, but there was something about the camera being on Shoshanna's face during the scene where Ray/Abby sort of made her an outsider and told her her answers were wrong  that made me think Shoshanna could still be in that story. She hasn't been shown to still be in love with Ray, so all of that camera on her face - what story was it telling? If we WERE supposed to believe she was in love with Ray, the camera on her face would be the moment when she realizes she has to move on, there was no connection, and then in the finale, we'd see her next step. But here, they've been established as friends, so it's possible the camera on her face was telling us (which we'll find out in hindsight) that him connecting with Abby made her realize she still had feelings for him. It was a weird "arc". The first beats of Abby/Ray didn't even feel on the level - they felt weird and phony, and Abby felt phony. The later beat, when they interviewed old Brooklyn denizens, felt on the level, but in a way that the show wanted to sell the wonder of interviewing people who were part of Brooklyn history. Almost like Girls decided to shove another show in there. It went on too long, and was self-indulgent. We didn't need ALL those individual stories and moments to tell that beat in the Ray story.

LOTS of music telling us how to feel in this episode.

As I typed that, I realized that I felt a plot hole in this episode, a failure to establish stakes for either Ray or Adam, so the final beats felt unearned. For example, I know Ray can be a crank, and a curmudgeon, but he hasn't been established as "that guy who struggles socially and can't talk to people." That's never been his obstacle. He's always talked with people at the coffee shop just fine, had casual conversations just fine. His obstacle was finding a purpose in his life to which he could commit. So Abby spoon-feeding him how to ask people their stories felt out of the blue. Oh look, Ray is breaking out of his shell. Through her warm example, HE can now connect. Since when did he have that particular kind of shell? The kind where someone had to role model for him how to strike up conversations with willing, interesting strangers? There was all this warm, fuzzy music behind that sequence, as if Ray has been locked in some sort of shyness and self-doubt prison that made him awkward talking to a bunch of seventy year olds. Come on. Seventy to ninety year olds are Ray's crowd right down to his toes. He'd never need Abby taking him by the hand with that.

I'm not familiar enough with Ady Bryant's "straight" acting, so I couldn't quite get a read on her facial expression after she and Ray kissed on the carousel. For a second I thought she was playing, you know, exhaling with happiness. She sort of let out a sigh and smiled. But then there were a bunch of other expressions, and I began to wonder if she doesn't have a husband stashed somewhere, or is getting ready to move to the U.K. or something. Like "I kissed him, but oh dear, he has the wrong idea."

Then Adam. Adam made references like Jessa would probably leave him in four months anyway so he did them both a favor - where did that come from? Where did his comment that he was looking forward to the baby so he could get out of his own head come from? Has he been in some kind of ongoing malaise? Because it played as if he seized on the Hannah-and-baby thing as a way to break out of some funk he'd been in, only that funk had never been established. It had never been hinted that he thought Jessa would dump him. And I guess the fact that he quit his movie was the part where we were supposed to understand he was in a funk? Cause how it PLAYED to me was that by quitting his movie, Adam was being Adam, nothing out of the norm.  Jessa has the idea for them to make a movie, and he does, and is now submitting it to festivals, I guess. The story there was his quitting his movie and making his own, using his history with Hannah as the script, awakened feelings for Hannah, feel there was unfinished business, and he then pursued it before it was too late. But the story in THIS episode was Adam was using Hannah and the baby to escape something.

I also felt that Hannah recognizing it wouldn't work with Adam didn't really play out in the episode. It was a very result-oriented episode, like the show runners thought of shots (or a "moving" musical score) and then reverse engineered the episode to justify the "moments" they'd pre-planned.  In Hannah and Adam's story, it came across to me that they think Lena Dunham cries really well, and they wanted that long shot of her lip quivering, her wiping away silent tears, and her look around with wet eyes to master the emotion welling in her. And the story that led up to it was the pretext to showcase Lena Dunham doing that thing they think she does really well. Hey - how about a Golden Globe?

Jessa's story, I understood. I have to give Jemima Kirke props. When she told Adam he needed to go do what he had to do, I honestly thought she didn't act out because she still has guilt about Hannah. There was something in how she played it that made me think "Oh, Jessa thinks she doesn't have the right to act out about that." She was great in the bar - the look she used to pick up the guy. And in her scene with Laird, when she threw out, "He's going to raise her baby." She hit the word "her" just enough so we could suspect "Instead of OUR baby."  but not to the point where if it turns out she's not pregnant, we can accuse the show of misdirection.

I agree with Hannah about food co-ops, but Park Slope's aside (I don't think she and Adam can afford to live there anyway, and the shift thing would be a burden if they lived far away), there are several co-ops with, IMO, a more practical way to address participation, including allowing non-members to shop there at higher prices, thus subsidizing the fact that they don't do shifts, and I think other structures if you're not a shift person.

ETA - the show remains financially nebulous. Adam and Hannah were talking about getting subsidized housing for artists, but when Adam was pursuing Jessa he paid for her classes, which isn't cheap. How struggling or not struggling an artist is he meant to be?

Edited by DianeDobbler
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On 4/2/2017 at 11:15 PM, Matias130 said:

Also, that bare baby bump looked awfully real ..... 

But the boobs did not. Hannah had her substantial pregnant stomach but her boobs weren't affected by pregnancy at all. It ended up looking weird.

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(edited)
8 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

For example, I know Ray can be a crank, and a curmudgeon, but he hasn't been established as "that guy who struggles socially and can't talk to people." That's never been his obstacle. He's always talked with people at the coffee shop just fine, had casual conversations just fine. His obstacle was finding a purpose in his life to which he could commit. So Abby spoon-feeding him how to ask people their stories felt out of the blue. Oh look, Ray is breaking out of his shell. Through her warm example, HE can now connect. Since when did he have that particular kind of shell? The kind where someone had to role model for him how to strike up conversations with willing, interesting strangers? There was all this warm, fuzzy music behind that sequence, as if Ray has been locked in some sort of shyness and self-doubt prison that made him awkward talking to a bunch of seventy year olds. Come on. Seventy to ninety year olds are Ray's crowd right down to his toes. He'd never need Abby taking him by the hand with that.

This is such a good point.  Ray is cranky, but he has never been shy.  He is a grumpy old man in a 36 year old body.  The show was forcing " a meet cute" on us that really was not that cute or believable.

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Shoshanna's face during the scene where Ray/Abby sort of made her an outsider and told her her answers were wrong  that made me think Shoshanna could still be in that story. She hasn't been shown to still be in love with Ray, so all of that camera on her face - what story was it telling? If we WERE supposed to believe she was in love with Ray, the camera on her face would be the moment when she realizes she has to move on, there was no connection, and then in the finale, we'd see her next step. But here, they've been established as friends, so it's possible the camera on her face was telling us (which we'll find out in hindsight) that him connecting with Abby made her realize she still had feelings for him. It was a weird "arc

I think her face was a reflection of the audience.  She could not believe that curmudgeon Ray was having such a strong connection with sparkly rainbow Abby.  Maybe they will get married and be the Millennial Archie and Edith Bunker.  Heck, there were times that Abby felt like Ray's manic pixie dream girl.

I have a question for the board.  Since this episode deals with the "boys" of Girls, do you think the actor who played Charlie regrets quitting the series, particularly in light of what a huge success Adam Driver has been?

Edited by qtpye
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(edited)
9 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Finally was able to watch it uninterrupted, and my thoughts are - 

Ray/Abby - I wouldn't be surprised if that's Ray's happy ending, but there was something about the camera being on Shoshanna's face during the scene where Ray/Abby sort of made her an outsider and told her her answers were wrong  that made me think Shoshanna could still be in that story. She hasn't been shown to still be in love with Ray, so all of that camera on her face - what story was it telling? If we WERE supposed to believe she was in love with Ray, the camera on her face would be the moment when she realizes she has to move on, there was no connection, and then in the finale, we'd see her next step. But here, they've been established as friends, so it's possible the camera on her face was telling us (which we'll find out in hindsight) that him connecting with Abby made her realize she still had feelings for him. 

Shosh seems to have been put off most of all by Ray and Abigail tag-teaming her with their condescension about Abigail's psychological litmus test question and the "right" response. I think any third person at that lunch would have had the same reaction, because they were both being pretty obnoxious. I would have peaced out after that, and maybe indeed that's why Shosh is absent from the next Ray scenes. Ray was already on thin ice with Shosh with his aggressive air quoting.

I think Shosh is genuinely over Ray, but it would still be a bitter pill to swallow to watch him fall in love with someone else right in front of her. That would be a brutal blow to anyone's ego, no matter how little interest they had in their ex.

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I have a question for the board.  Since this episode deals with the "boys" of Girls, do you think the actor who played Charlie regrets quitting the series, particularly in light of what a huge success Adam Driver has been?

I've heard enough rumours about Lena Dunham's behaviour as showrunner that I believe that even if Charlie's actor (Christopher Abbott) did think that he had missed a big career opportunity by leaving the series--which is debatable to my mind, since it's not as if any of the other men on Girls have been catapulted to great success--that he probably considered it a fair trade for being able to escape the show.

Also, while Girls undoubtedly got Adam Driver's foot in the door, Adam Driver succeeded because he's Adam Driver: great actor, very charismatic, striking looks, etc. He stands out. Christopher Abbott has much more of a generic pretty boy look (like a poor man's Kit Harington), and while his acting was competent, he didn't stand out like Adam Driver; guys like him are a dime a dozen in Hollywood.

Edited by Eyes High
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17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I've heard enough rumours about Lena Dunham's behaviour as showrunner that I believe that even if Charlie's actor (Christopher Abbott) did think that he had missed a big career opportunity by leaving the series--which is debatable to my mind, since it's not as if any of the other men on Girls have been catapulted to great success--that he probably considered it a fair trade for being able to escape the show.

Do you mind sharing?  I remember being surprised he quit the series, particularly since the first season has a lot of buzz.  Was it just creative differences or is she really a bit of a pill to work for?

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Eyes High, what have you heard about Lena Dunham's behavior as a show runner?

Understood about the camera on Shoshanna, but my point about the camera on her face was she is one of the girls. They are, presumably, telling HER story as well, however truncated. She was either a prop and audience stand-in in the Abby-Ray scene, or the camera being more on her face than on theirs was a beat in HER story as well as Ray's. We'll find out.

I personally didn't see Ray fall in love, it was sort of this obnoxious OTT thing going on that felt a little off to me.  She was blatantly there to facilitate Ray feeling better about himself and to shove him forward, and it was painfully heavy handed. I'm still not positive that her role there was to demonstrate she's the right woman for him, but with this show, I'm prepared to be wrong.

The "test" question they did was one of those things that sounds superficially profound, but is actually asinine. You can't answer the question without asking other questions such as, are the buildings of equal quality - basic condition, size of the space, amenities, price, only one has an ugly aesthetic and the other a beautiful one? Is the ugly building a dump? Actually, my first response would be "I want to live in the beautiful building" - not because of the reasons Ray and Abby proposed, but because in NYC if someone says "Ugly building", I'm thinking a dump, so of course I want to live in the nice one. Nothing to do with aesthetics.

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1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Do you mind sharing?  I remember being surprised he quit the series, particularly since the first season has a lot of buzz.  Was it just creative differences or is she really a bit of a pill to work for?

 

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

Eyes High, what have you heard about Lena Dunham's behavior as a show runner?

The gossip website Crazydaysandnights.net posted the following alleged blind items and later revealed them to be about Lena Dunham (allegedly):

 

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This actress is probably B+. I would move her higher but her hit pay cable show is an ensemble and she never does anything else but her show. Considering her duties with the show that is probably understandable. Anyway, her temper is legendary and she literally threw a drink at a production assistant this week when they dared bring her the wrong drink. The drink hit the ground in front of the PA and splattered everyone within five feet.

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EMMY AWARDS: This A- list mostly television actress from a hit pay cable show was talking smack about her co-stars and was grateful they had not been nominated because it would go to their head and they would want more lines and be an even bigger headache then they already are. One of her co-stars who was there was spotted by the actress and said, "Oh, but not you, you are great."

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This B+ mostly television actress on a hit cable show is writing a show which features nothing but her. It would be a dream episode and she would be the only one who speaks. No one else. The rest of the actors on the show would also be blurry. She thinks it is perfect. Just another reason why the cast and crew really dislike her.

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This cable show is a really big hit. Big hits bring fighting. The thing is you should never fight with the boss who is also your co-star because she will hate you and you shouldn't expect to be back next season. You should kiss as much butt like the other co-stars who love being on the show despite their boss. 

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It always gets me upset when I see some A- list mostly television actress on a soon ending hit pay cable show talk about diversity when she refuses to ever include anyone of color on her show, despite repeated calls for her to have some diversity. 

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8) What star of that quirky cable hit is becoming such a bitch on wheels that her costars are afraid to be within distance of her?

 

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This B list mostly television actress from a very hot show who is also a writer is in negotiations to pay off some other writers who say she stole their work after mentoring them. Apparently mentoring meant getting their ideas and then taking them for her own. 

Crazydaysandnights.net's reliability has been called into question a fair bit, to put it mildly, thus "rumours." But yeah. And this is just the stuff related to the show.

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2 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Understood about the camera on Shoshanna, but my point about the camera on her face was she is one of the girls. They are, presumably, telling HER story as well, however truncated. She was either a prop and audience stand-in in the Abby-Ray scene, or the camera being more on her face than on theirs was a beat in HER story as well as Ray's. We'll find out.

Heh...it just occurred to me that Ray is more of a "girl" than Shosh.  I think he's had more of an arc and a lot of fans are invested in him and talk about him more than Shoshanna.  I don't know what to think of that.

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(edited)

Thanks for the CDN stuff, Eyes High!

I agree with everyone who thinks it's unrealistic these four women would remain a core group of friends. Shosh long long ago stopped being that. I believe Hannah/Marnie would endure even I find the friendship unrealistic in real world terms, and Shosh/Jessa will somehow stay connected because they're related.  I've never quite understood why we're told Jessa wants to remain friends with Hannah so badly, and Marnie/Jessa lost real contact long ago, as did Marnie / Shoshanna.

The "sleep with your friend's ex" deal is sticky. I probably have more animus towards Marnie than towards Jessa, because Jessa actually resisted while Adam chased her around, and because she was aware of crossing a line and violating her value system, while Marnie came over to confess to Shoshanna, she was her usual oblivious Marnie self about it, specifying they'd had sex multiple times, and, IMO, not taking the scenario particularly seriously. Hannah had made her feel she was obligated to talk with Shoshanna, but I don't think Marnie had an ounce of actual guilt.

And, when Hannah wanted to know how Jessa was in bed, it reinforced for me that she's upset because Adam is sleeping with a better looking woman. That, more than the actual fact of the relationship, is what pisses her off. It threatens Hannah. The one woman she probably feels most competitive with in that circle, and Hannah IS competitive. Jessa has stuff Hannah can't aspire too, but might want to (they have a lot in common - comfortable walking around naked, follow their impulses, comfortable with stranger sex, a lot of strength of will, a ton of strong opinions, a lot of witting or unwitting influence on those around them). I did think it was funny when Hannah told Adam that next time he made a movie about her, he should cast someone who resembles her, has cool hair and all these other qualities the actress they used actually DID have, only to a greater degree than Hannah herself. Certainly that actress had way more "gravitas."

Oh, when Hannah listed all the things that could happen to the baby, why did she mention the car seat scenario? She doesn't have a car. It would make more sense for her to worry that the subway doors would close and separate her from the child.

Finally, just read an interview with all four girls where Allison Williams said her MO each season was she wanted to be on the show more. She wanted screen time. She wanted to be a piece of furniture in Hannah's apartment if that's what it took. The show runner goes "You're nothing if not consistent." That made me wonder if Girls actually modeled Marnie on Allison Williams. Not the woman's personal life, but her MO as someone of little talent who wants to be a performer and get as much spotlight as she can. It's always denied, but it's very typical for shows to overcompensate about a performer who doesn't cut it with the rest of the cast. Remember Jessica Pare on Mad Men and how everyone on the cast fell down for her in dvd commentary? And if there IS anything to CDN's portrait of Lena Dunham, it would make sense why Sosia Mamet got less screen time and Allison Williams got the most. Williams is the least scene stealing of the other three.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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37 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

And, when Hannah wanted to know how Jessa was in bed, it reinforced for me that she's upset because Adam is sleeping with a better looking woman. That, more than the actual fact of the relationship, is what pisses her off. It threatens Hannah. The one woman she probably feels most competitive with in that circle, and Hannah IS competitive. Jessa has stuff Hannah can't aspire too, but might want to (they have a lot in common - comfortable walking around naked, follow their impulses, comfortable with stranger sex, a lot of strength of will, a ton of strong opinions, a lot of witting or unwitting influence on those around them). I did think it was funny when Hannah told Adam that next time he made a movie about her, he should cast someone who resembles her, has cool hair and all these other qualities the actress they used actually DID have, only to a greater degree than Hannah herself. Certainly that actress had way more "gravitas."

Yeah, Hannah probably wanted to be Jessa at one point (I doubt if she ever wanted to be Marnie).  However, even though Hannah probably thinks Jessa is unbelievably gorgeous, being self conscious around good looking women is not her style.  In fact, Adam left an extremely attractive emotionally stable woman for Hannah.  She just has an appeal in this world that transcends looks and make her stand out from women who are conventionally more attractive and mature.  I think Hannah would be more worried that Jessa would be a better lover, because she has just a free wheeling attitude that even Hannah can not match.

The only time I remember someone (male or female) not being interested in Hannah, is when she tried to flirt with the book store cashier at her Iowa Writing Program.  He had been very flirty with the coed before her and just sort of dismissed Hannah.  However, this was just a couple of seconds on screen and was played for laughs, nothing really serious.

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The reason I mention that Hannah would be conscious and competitive re Jenna's looks is that at Hannah's "Moth"  reading, one of the strongest emphasis in her story about her "boyfriend taking up with her best friend." was that her best friend looked like "Bridget Bardot and a mermaid had a baby." It was part of the pain that infused her moth story. Then when she asked how Jessa was in bed and Adam said she laughed more, Hannah tried to spin it as a bad thing, as an unexpected discomfort with sex from a woman "with a body shaped like hers and hair like hers." I think Lena definitely wants us to know the looks are something that Hannah may feel gives Jessa an advantage, and it gets Hannah's back up. I'm not saying it impacts how Hannah behaves. But it impacts how she feels.

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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 7:39 AM, stagmania said:

This is not a guy who feels the need to stick to his commitments or who places a sense of honor over his need to explore his impulses. He likes to be needed, and it seems to me that once he realized Hannah didn't want or need him, he was okay walking away. 

 

Absolutely. In fact a couple of episodes ago he walked off a movie set on impulse, which would have cost the director and everybody else a lot of money. And him some credibility and good standing in a very difficult business. He acts on impulse every bit as much as Jessa and Hannah.

I don't understand the description some reviewers give of Adam and Jessa as "volatile." They had that crazy scene last season, but subsequently have seemed stable to me. Although I don't buy the sex den one bit. That is not real life.

One thing a reviewer DID point out was that a lot of what we see raises questions. Have we had relationships like Hannah's with Elijah where they're so completely open there are literally no boundaries - walking around without clothes, commenting on what's exposed, going to the bathroom while the other is showering? And for me, a few episodes back when Ray came over to see if he could move back into Jessa and Adam's, Jessa just sitting there naked, Adam playfully jumping on top of her, and the two of them saying - oh yeah, we shoved all your stuff over there?

Something I read described the Ray in this episode was "This episode's version of Ray." I think the entire season has been written like that for all of the characters except Marnie (who has been unrelentingly awful) and Shosh (who has barely been on).

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Crazydaysandnights.net's reliability has been called into question a fair bit, to put it mildly, thus "rumours." But yeah. And this is just the stuff related to the show.

Yeah, as an avid gossip reader, I wouldn't trust anything from that site. The posts don't really sound all that credible to me; they're the kind of stories that seem easy to construct  based on existing knowledge of critiques of the show and a public woman who is already mostly disliked (which makes people extremely eager to believe any negative thing said about her). Even the description of the show strikes me as language an industry insider wouldn't use- Girls isn't actually a "hit". It has a tiny audience.   

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9 HOURS AGO,  QTPYE SAID: 

I have a question for the board.  Since this episode deals with the "boys" of Girls, do you think the actor who played Charlie regrets quitting the series, particularly in light of what a huge success Adam Driver has been?

I actually was just thinking about that, and I bet the answer is yes. After all, he did agree to come back last year. I definitely think it was a mistake for him to quit the show before he established himself or secured other opportunities. That said, I doubt he ever would've been as successful as Driver, because he just wasn't nearly as interesting a performer. I think getting cast in Girls was absolutely essential to getting Driver on the radar and into the right rooms, but his talent took care of the rest. 

Edited by stagmania
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But they also didn't really give Charlie much to do except put up with Marnie's bullshit. Adam got to have a lot of sex, yell, and curse. And by the way, I think there is a point to be made that Marnie slept with Elijah, and she's essentially forgiven both of them, but Jess's sleeping with Adam is unforgivable. 

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Ok I didn't get it. I actually thought the crying was sweet, like she was happy. I actually liked the proposal. 

Adam has such beautiful hair.

The Jessa hate is because she's always been a selfish bitch. What's hard to understand about that. I hate her character.

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10 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Adam Driver got the biggest bounce from Girls.

Specifically, Judd Apatow.  The episodes that he writes are very Adam-centric, where Adam Driver can play White Knight or Maniac.  

Season 2 finale:

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(edited)

I've totally had that no-boundaries relationship with my BFF from college, who I lived with senior year. (BTW I'm a straight woman and he's a gay man.) So much of Hannah & Elijah's roommate with no boundaries situation describes us the year we lived together. Granted, we were 21-22 when we lived together. 

Edited by MyPeopleAreNordic
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On 4/6/2017 at 8:24 AM, DianeDobbler said:

But the boobs did not. Hannah had her substantial pregnant stomach but her boobs weren't affected by pregnancy at all. It ended up looking weird.

I noticed a few comments regarding how well the baby bump was done. Watching on a HD computer monitor and being less than a foot from the screen, you could see the outline of the CGI effect when it came to her stomach, especially in the scenes where she's laying shirtless on the sofa, sweating, and MEEEEE-lijah is taking up all the room in front of the window fan, bitching about the heat.  From a distance on a television, it's not so obvious, but up close, you can see the blurred line from the digitally enhanced baby bump.  Maybe doing the same for the boobs was a little too obvious and looked really fake after the computer effects were added, so they scrapped it? 

My impression about giving the "Hannah-Adam fans what they want," is actually more of "Giving the Adam DRIVER fans what they want." Driver has really moved beyond the show. Judd even mentions that it was getting to the point of people gawking at Adam, and little kids running up during filming to ask for Kylo Ren's autograph. They needed to showcase HIM. "Hey, Adam is a HUGE STAR now, but just remember who gave him his start." I like Driver. I actually admire the fact that he stuck with Girls, instead of what most actors would do once they have their big blockbuster fame kick in, which would be to leave the show.  

That diner scene killed. Both Dunham and Driver are GREAT at conveying emotion without saying a word. As for Jessa....fuck her. She gets to smirk as Adam comes crawling back? Whatever. 

Edited by ChicksDigScars
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