S03.E13: The Sign

[OnceSane]

Quote

Grace and Frankie face a lawsuit. Sol fights back against the homophobic play protesters. Frankie mulls over a move that would change everything.

[Clanstarling]

Wow, I didn't expect to binge the whole season, but one thing led to another...

The trouble with that is that commenting is harder, because the lines blur as to where specific incidents happened.

Frankie's discussion with Jacob was heartbreaking. I loved that Grace was finally able to express herself. Not sure what to expect next season - we've got at least one new pregnancy. Maybe they do have a plan for all those kids.

So, Brooklyn Decker was in a chair, under a blanket. Could she be pregnant again? Someone in a previous episode forum mentioned she'd been pregnant last season, but IIRC, she's been fairly dressed up and disguised for most of this season (starting off with the poncho, though I can't quite recall the other outfits).

[EarlGreyTea]

Yeah, June Diane Raphael was the one who was pregnant the whole season. She talked about being grateful to Fonda for advocating for a positive workplace policy re: maternity leave. Having said that, I really missed the resolution of Brianna's storyline and the lack of her presence in the pivotal hospital scenes. I don't think being with Barry would have kept her from Frankie being in the hospital, nor do I buy her waiting in the wings for Barry to dump his other woman. I thought it was a weird choice to take her off the canvas. Surely some other reason could have worked better.

Peter Gallagher walked the fine line between smarmy and charming the whole episode. Mostly smarmy with strong-arming Grace into going out with him. But he seems to be Grace's match. I miss Phil.

[Bastet]

Are we seriously, on this of all shows, going to do some asinine storyline where a man acts like a total asshole, refuses to take no for an answer, and the woman finds it charming?

I know I'm supposed to be torn about what choice Frankie would make, but to me it's a no-brainer to stay where she is; leaving an entire support system, a lifetime of relationships that will never end, a business, etc. to follow one person with whom she's been in a relationship for about five minutes in the grand scheme of things, and which is quite likely to end at some point? 

Who’s running Brianna’s company while she hides her belly under a blanket and tries to sleep with a guy with whom she has no future?

I’m surprised it took Frankie this long to embark on a crusade to rid her life of processed food.

Grumbling about this episode aside, this was another great season and I hope for another one (at least).

[zxy556575]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

I’m surprised it took Frankie this long to embark on a crusade to rid her life of processed food.

Right? Frankie been a junk food addict is another sitcom-y odd couple difference between her and Grace, but it doesn't really jibe with her vegetarian, holistic earth philosophies.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Lord Donia

[EarlGreyTea]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

Are we seriously, on this of all shows, going to do some asinine storyline where a man acts like a total asshole, refuses to take no for an answer, and the woman finds it charming?

Thank you, I couldn't articulate it as well as you did. I'm rather surprised Fonda agreed to this storyline, frankly. Blackmailing her into dating him so he won't sue and serving her papers just to see her again? Naw son, that's disgusting. What I DID like was their banter about the terms of the date. That was some nice give and take. Had he been introduced differently, I would have been onboard.

Edited March 26, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[Wings]

5 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Thank you, I couldn't articulate it as well as you did. I'm rather surprised Fonda agreed to this storyline, frankly. Blackmailing her into dating him so he won't sue and serving her papers just to see her again? Naw son, that's disgusting. What I DID like was their banter about the terms of the date. That was some nice give and take. Had he been introduced differently, I would have been onboard.

Grace was playing him because she wanted him to drop the law suit.   That is good business. In business you use whatever you have and do what it takes to get what you want.  In this case it was saving her business.  If you were a man you might get him an escort to sweeten the pot.  

19 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

 

Yeah, June Diane Raphael was the one who was pregnant the whole season.

 

I didn't know she was pregnant but I did notice she was heavier.  When I watch again I will pay attention. 

20 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

Wow, I didn't expect to binge the whole season, but one thing led to another...

The trouble with that is that commenting is harder, because the lines blur as to where specific incidents happened.

 

I watched in two sittings and I knew I would!  It is hard to comment in the episode threads because I now see everything as a whole movie. 

I loved the changes they made.  Jane's hair (wigs) well done.  One was styled casually for the scenes where she was not doing business and adorable.  Her clothes have relaxed, too.  I don't see the point of 

Robert is looking more comfortable and Sol is still Sol.  

The scenes with the kids were very good, I love their bond.  The drinking game at the art show was a highlight. I Thought the scene with Bud the strawberries and sex was stupid and not believable or even funny, that was a thumbs down.   I fail to see the point of Malory having twins, one would have done it.  There must be a plot line reason for two.

They telegraphed Malory and Coyote getting back together for awhile anyway.  His being so good with the kids will suck her in.  Looking waaay ahead, it won't last. 

Bud's girl said she was pregnant but I don't see that happening.  She is crazy and probably lying or has convinced herself she is and will have an hysterical pregnancy.  

I knew Frankie was not going to Santa Fe.  That was a plot device to get Jacob off and out of her life to leave her open to new love interests.

I loved Frankie bemoaning the fact she was out of jelly beans for her pancakes and at Grace's suggestion of gummy bears, "who eats gummy bears on their pancakes."

I adored how sweet and playful Robert and Grace were with each other. Very sweet and satisfying! 

Those are the thoughts on top right now.  I loved this season, flaws and all.  With any scripted show you have to suspend reality and just go with it.  I can easily do that with this show. 

[EarlGreyTea]

17 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Grace was playing him because she wanted him to drop the law suit.   That is good business. In business you use whatever you have and do what it takes to get what you want.  In this case it was saving her business.  If you were a man you might get him an escort to sweeten the pot. 

I mean, I see what you're saying. I get why it's a good deal on HER part. She definitely is playing the cards she's dealt by going out with him. I just would rather not have him become a long term love interest, because it's insanely skeevy on HIS part. Go out with him to get him to drop the lawsuit, fine. Keeping him around a la Phil or Jacob? I hope they don't.

I know it's a romantic staple to use your wealth to get someone to go out with you, I just don't like it. I miss Phil.

Edited March 26, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[Wings]

I don't think Grace has any plan to keep him around, at all! 

[EarlGreyTea]

3 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I don't think Grace has any plan to keep him around, at all! 

I hope he's a one and done character, but you don't hire an actor of his caliber for just one episode (well, you do, but I have a feeling he's sticking around).  I think the issue for me is that we're supposed to see him as totally charming. We're supposed to see him as a viable love interest for Grace. We're supposed to handwave the blackmail. And the kicker is that he COULD have been a great love interest, had he been introduced differently. 

I think I'm projecting a lot. I'm really tired of the 50 Shades phenomenon where a man acts like an asshole, throws his wealth around, and I'm supposed to find it attractive.

On another note, I didn't like Jane's wigs this season, the ones with the waves. I preferred the straighter look she had last season. Her clothes remain flawless, though.

[Clanstarling]

11 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I'm really tired of the 50 Shades phenomenon where a man acts like an asshole, throws his wealth around, and I'm supposed to find it attractive.

Me too. Though I think this mindset was around a long time before 50 Shades. One of the reasons I don't read romances. As you said, too bad, because they do seem to have some chemistry, and now that he's graying, Peter's eyebrows don't take over his whole face - so he's more attractive (to me anyway) than he used to be.

Still, the best scene for me was Grace and Frankie in the hot air balloon. I couldn't decide how much was real, and how much was special effects, but I loved the excitement/fear/joy on their faces.

I don't pay a lot of attention to Grace's hair. To me it pretty much always looks like rich woman blond. I'm always just so impressed with Frankie's - and how beautiful Lily is at this age. Maybe not classically, but she shines.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Wings]

53 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Still, the best scene for me was Grace and Frankie in the hot air balloon. I couldn't decide how much was real, and how much was special effects, but I loved the excitement/fear/joy on their faces.

It was filmed in front of a green screen.  You can tell by how faint the background was compared to the color of them in the basket. 

1 hour ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I hope he's a one and done character, but you don't hire an actor of his caliber for just one episode (well, you do, but I have a feeling he's sticking around). 

Grace made the deal, he backed off and she borrowed his ride!   That was the point of ascending in the balloon.  They are having a new beginning.  The business is safe and Frankie is staying. Good finale!

Edited March 26, 2017 by wings707

[zxy556575]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't pay a lot of attention to Grace's hair. To me it pretty much always looks like rich woman blond. I'm always just so impressed with Frankie's - and how beautiful Lily is at this age

From my thinning, visible scalp perspective, I'm so freaking jealous of Lily's hair!

[EarlGreyTea]

Just now, Lord Donia said:

From my thinning, visible scalp perspective, I'm so freaking jealous of Lily's hair!

I think she's wearing a wig too, honestly. Saw some pics of her from the premiere and it's shoulder length. She also had shoulder length hair for her most recent movie, Grandma (GREAT movie). Not to say she can't have grown it out, but it seems like a wig or a weave. Either way it looks so gorgeous.

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Me too. Though I think this mindset was around a long time before 50 Shades. One of the reasons I don't read romances. As you said, too bad, because they do seem to have some chemistry, and now that he's graying, Peter's eyebrows don't take over his whole face - so he's more attractive (to me anyway) than he used to be.

Never found Peter attractive until this show. Either he thinned his brows or did something else, but he is looking mighty fine. Also it's damn refreshing that for once a female actress gets to play opposite a younger man as her love interest, and 20 years her junior at that. You usually see the other way around.

[debraran]

On 3/26/2017 at 2:56 AM, Bastet said:

Are we seriously, on this of all shows, going to do some asinine storyline where a man acts like a total asshole, refuses to take no for an answer, and the woman finds it charming?

I know I'm supposed to be torn about what choice Frankie would make, but to me it's a no-brainer to stay where she is; leaving an entire support system, a lifetime of relationships that will never end, a business, etc. to follow one person with whom she's been in a relationship for about five minutes in the grand scheme of things, and which is quite likely to end at some point? 

 

Do you think they want to write him off and that's why the decision came so early to move to Sante Fe?  I remember when I watched Golden Girls years ago, you knew any guy relationship, even close to  marriage wasn't going to last because the dynamic would end with the ladies. Of course, when they decided to end the show, they married Dorothy off. I wonder with Grace and Frankie, if they will leave them together or have them both have someone (not as realistic) maybe Jacob gets back in touch and Frankie gets her balloons and Phil's wife dies and Grace reads about it....kind of contrived so I hope not.

Edited March 27, 2017 by debraran

[NaughtyKitty]

I wonder how the Brianna actress felt being pregnant and reciting lines about how much she dislikes children.  That's gotta be weird.

I loved Frankie's hair also.  So thick and wavy.

I really enjoyed this season.  Watched it all in 1 day.  Looking forward to another one

[Wings]

Frankie wears extensions for the show.  It is obvious seeing the bottom of her hair brownish.  When they did a round of TV interviews last season, Lily's hair is shoulder length and pretty thick.  She may wear clip in extensions when doing public appearances though.  

Jane wears a wig.  The scene where that was obvious was when they were lying on the floor.  We will never see what her real hair looks like though!  She is 79 and unlikely that thick. 

[Wings]

7 hours ago, debraran said:

Do you think they want to write him off and that's why the decision came so early to move to Sante Fe?  I remember when I watched Golden Girls years ago, you knew any guy relationship, even close to  marriage wasn't going to last because the dynamic would end with the ladies. Of course, when they decided to end the show, they married Dorothy off. I wonder with Grace and Frankie, if they will leave them together or have them both have someone (not as realistic) maybe Jacob gets back in touch and Frankie gets her balloons and Phil's wife dies and Grace reads about it....kind of contrived so I hope not.

I will miss Jacob, I like him but he would limit Frankie's role if he stuck around.  They will both have men in and out and I expect to see Phil show up after his wife dies, absolutely!  This show is all about the two of them and nothing is going to derail that. 

[debraran]

4 hours ago, wings707 said:

Frankie wears extensions for the show.  It is obvious seeing the bottom of her hair brownish.  When they did a round of TV interviews last season, Lily's hair is shoulder length and pretty thick.  She may wear clip in extensions when doing public appearances though.  

Jane wears a wig.  The scene where that was obvious was when they were lying on the floor.  We will never see what her real hair looks like though!  She is 79 and unlikely that thick. 

I know she sells wigs, but her stylist wont tell. ; ) Here she says how she uses a razor cut . http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fash-track/jane-fondas-glam-team-spills-424912

I've seen women her age with good hair at 70, not many but there are some with a good stylist. Wigs help when you just don't want to bother but a full wig never really hugs the face the same way.

[Wings]

4 minutes ago, debraran said:

I know she sells wigs, but her stylist wont tell. ; ) Here she says how she uses a razor cut . http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fash-track/jane-fondas-glam-team-spills-424912

I've seen women her age with good hair at 70, not many but there are some with a good stylist. Wigs help when you just don't want to bother but a full wig never really hugs the face the same way.

Yes some do have thick hair, like the Kennedys, that lasts a life time and Jane may be one of those.  She does wear a wig on the show though.  I think Lily does, too.  Her front hairline is the give away.  She has a decent head of hair but not in the style that works for Frankie.  

[debraran]

On 3/26/2017 at 7:07 PM, wings707 said:

It was filmed in front of a green screen.  You can tell by how faint the background was compared to the color of them in the basket. 

Grace made the deal, he backed off and she borrowed his ride!   That was the point of ascending in the balloon.  They are having a new beginning.  The business is safe and Frankie is staying. Good finale!

I really liked the last show, but I was in denial...I kept wanting Netflix to start the next one and then realized that was it. : (   I guess I just wanted one more. ; )

I loved the ending, kudos to the writers for making it subtle and moving.  The friendship almost made me tear up because it's one many women (maybe even Jane and Lily) wish they could have.

So how long under season 4?

I found this, but at their ages, I wish Netflix would make an exception.  Hope to see everyone back.

https://www.bustle.com/p/will-grace-frankie-return-for-season-4-the-stars-want-more-episodes-right-away-45889

Edited March 28, 2017 by debraran

[debraran]

It's very short, but if you want more of Jane and Lily, they were on Stephen Colbert's show yesterday, I watched it today. Both looked great, but not enough time.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

It's very short, but if you want more of Jane and Lily, they were on Stephen Colbert's show yesterday, I watched it today. Both looked great, but not enough time.

I loved that they seemed genuinely disappointed not to be spending more time on the show. I don't think I'd seen any guest look that disappointed before.

[hnygrl]

I'm sorry y'all, but there is no way in hell Frankie's going ANYWHERE. ESPECIALLY when she discovers she's about to be a GRANDMOTHER. No freaking way she's moving. Just. Not. Happening. Besides, the show is called GRACE AND FRANKIE, not Grace, the smarmy asshole she's dating, Frankie, and Jacob. She's not going anywhere.

I hate this season is over already. I hope they hurry up and film another one...well...after the Brianna Character has her baby so we don't have to watch her grovel to a man who has zero respect left for her. I want better for her than that so hurry up Girl! 

This season, like all the others, the Robert/Sol storylines kinda sucked.  Not "I hate watching this" suck, but..well...you just don't "believe" them as a 70-something been in love for 20 years gay couple. Just...no...

Kinda saw the separation coming. She wasn't happy with him. At all. All three seasons, he was just another thing she had to do and not a partner, lover, best friend, etc. and that's not good. Knew they were breaking up. Sol was not ready to retire and I will forever resent these people forcing retirement on a man who was blatantly NOT READY for it.

I can't believe it's over! Let's watch it again!

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I loved that they seemed genuinely disappointed not to be spending more time on the show. I don't think I'd seen any guest look that disappointed before.

I do too..what's wrong with the producers? Stephen had Jane on alone twice (who can forget the kiss?) and it seemed much longer. No mention of SAG award, how much fans love Grace and Frankie and how it helped some older people feel validated. I think the world of Colbert, he's a great guy but I don't think he's watched G&F and it showed.

This is old, 2015, but I'd love to listen to this when I have time, a Ted talk about the two of them and friendship.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_fonda_and_lily_tomlin_a_hilarious_celebration_of_lifelong_female_friendship

Edited March 29, 2017 by debraran

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I'm sorry y'all, but there is no way in hell Frankie's going ANYWHERE. ESPECIALLY when she discovers she's about to be a GRANDMOTHER. No freaking way she's moving. Just. Not. Happening. Besides, the show is called GRACE AND FRANKIE, not Grace, the smarmy asshole she's dating, Frankie, and Jacob. She's not going anywhere.

I hate this season is over already. I hope they hurry up and film another one...well...after the Brianna Character has her baby so we don't have to watch her grovel to a man who has zero respect left for her. I want better for her than that so hurry up Girl! 

This season, like all the others, the Robert/Sol storylines kinda sucked.  Not "I hate watching this" suck, but..well...you just don't "believe" them as a 70-something been in love for 20 years gay couple. Just...no...

Kinda saw the separation coming. She wasn't happy with him. At all. All three seasons, he was just another thing she had to do and not a partner, lover, best friend, etc. and that's not good. Knew they were breaking up. Sol was not ready to retire and I will forever resent these people forcing retirement on a man who was blatantly NOT READY for it.

I can't believe it's over! Let's watch it again!

Did I miss something? I didn't think Brianna (the character) was pregnant. My take was that the actress is pregnant (which is why she was sitting, covered by a blanket).

[hnygrl]

Yeah, that's what I meant. The actress is pregnant so they have this B.S. storyline for her. Sitting on her ass, waiting for a man to want her again.

That's so not Brianna, and I hate that this is the best they could come up with for her being off-site! 

[Wings]

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I loved that they seemed genuinely disappointed not to be spending more time on the show. I don't think I'd seen any guest look that disappointed before.

Yes.  They have been doing the circuit and go over the same thing every time.  You expect that on a morning show but on a nighttime talk show I would hope they would get into their relationship and the workings of the show much more.  Jane tried to go there.  I want to hear more about production and their friendship. 

On TODAY the interview was very funny.  Jane, immediately bored with Savannah tip toeing around their vibrator business saying they had to keep this PG because kids are eating their breakfast, just stepped in and talked about it in detail.  Starting with the kids are in school.  Loved it!  

32 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Yeah, that's what I meant. The actress is pregnant so they have this B.S. storyline for her. Sitting on her ass, waiting for a man to want her again.

That's so not Brianna, and I hate that this is the best they could come up with for her being off-site! 

I saw that as showing another side of her.  The one that really does want one person to love.  She is not a one dimensional character.  

Edited March 29, 2017 by wings707

[Wings]

This is excellent!  Thanks @debraran.  I listened to this when it came out and enjoyed it again.  

[Bastet]

37 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I saw that as showing another side of her.  The one that really does want one person to love.

Oh yeah, she's clearly open to that, since she was happy with Barry.  She just doesn't want to marry that one person, so that was this nicely resolved thing -- Barry wants it, she doesn't, he leaves, Frankie assures her if it isn't right for her, it isn't right, Brianna is comforted, and we've moved on.  Then all of a sudden she's stalking him, trying to get him to cheat on his girlfriend with her.

[Wings]

38 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Oh yeah, she's clearly open to that, since she was happy with Barry.  She just doesn't want to marry that one person, so that was this nicely resolved thing -- Barry wants it, she doesn't, he leaves, Frankie assures her if it isn't right for her, it isn't right, Brianna is comforted, and we've moved on.  Then all of a sudden she's stalking him, trying to get him to cheat on his girlfriend with her.

This was a guess I had knowing the writing is pretty tight and circumstances tent to lead to something else.  They could have put her anywhere, she owns a business.  They chose this for a reason, is my guess. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by wings707

[hnygrl]

I just hate it that a strong, accomplished, successful, beautiful woman is lowered to stalking a man who walked away from her and is clearly over her. It's so lowering and humiliating. She's just sitting there (literally!) waiting for him to either cheat on his girlfriend with her or "choose" her.

Girl. No. If my kid or any female friend I know did that? We'd have to have a talk. That's just so humiliating and wrong. 

Sure, she discovered she wants what he wants. Now. And fully expected him to just drop everything and take her back. When that didn't happen, she should have gone home. It hurts. A lot. But we don't always get second chances. Sometimes you screw up and miss your shot.

That's a better message to that demographic than her sitting there, not running her business, just...waiting...for him to "choose" her. Ugh. This has to have been written my men. Can't imagine women writers sitting still for this. It's just freaking wrong and unrealistic.

[Wings]

Maybe the message is strong women want to love and be loved, too.  You can be strong and independent yet still have a man in your life.  Perhaps Brianna has been vocal about not wanting a relationship to punctuate her strength, thinking that is a symbol of it,  or she fears being left.  Fonda, the epitome of strong woman, has been married 4 times.   She is the creator and producer and works closely with the writers.  I trust her wisdom. 

[PaulaO]

As much as I loved this season, it pisses me off that it had to end with the tritest of cliches, the unexpected pregnancy.  That is so anti what this show is to me.

[Wings]

Alison is nuts so I expect her pregnancy to be as fake as her allergies!   

For me this show is witty, poignant at times and an enjoyable window into lives in this unique family.   I don't expect it represent some higher ground.  Though it sometimes does.  We are all flawed and we are seeing this reflected in the cast.  

The diverse personalities are doing their lives as we all are.  The all experience failures and successes.  And  they are as diverse as we see in society.  A strong woman who is adamant about not being in a relationship, but maybe really wanting one after all.   Bud not seeing his girlfriends flaws that are evident to everyone else.  This happens all the time. 

I love this show.  I am not fond of Sol and Robert, they don't do gay well, but I am rolling with it.  :^)

[OtterMommy]

Wow, this got heavy towards the end.  Or, at least heavier.  I was a bit squicked out over Peter Gallagher's character--threatening to sue someone for a date is not only unbelievable, but rather stalky.

Add me to the list who believes that Frankie isn't going anywhere.  No one is more enmeshed with their family (and their best friend's family, which is also now her ex-husband's family) than Frankie. In fact, it really all sort of seems like a false build-up to me.

[debraran]

I agree, the "you have to date me" was a little creepy especially with so much of that going on today with men and women with boundary issues. You never saw the date end, which I think was better.

The same way they never would really break up the Golden Girls until the end, I doubt Grace and Frankie have to worry yet. If someone does leave, they would be close by to visit often.

[PaulaO]

I dunno, if Ernie Hudson asked me to go to Santa Fe with him, I may well do it.  But that would ruin the show.  To me, the point of the show is that Grace and Frankie (and everyone!) can have their lives without having to have a love interest.  I'm 59, been divorced for 15 years, and have embraced this.  Brianna doesn't need a man to make her life complete.  Frankie doesn't.  I'm just so tired of the mindset "you have to have a man/woman" and truthfully, I expect more from Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. 

I did love the final scene of the two of them in the balloon wit the arms around each other.  I could see how much love there in that relationship.

[Wings]

6 minutes ago, PaulaO said:

I dunno, if Ernie Hudson asked me to go to Santa Fe with him, I may well do it.  But that would ruin the show.  To me, the point of the show is that Grace and Frankie (and everyone!) can have their lives without having to have a love interest.  I'm 59, been divorced for 15 years, and have embraced this.  Brianna doesn't need a man to make her life complete.  Frankie doesn't.  I'm just so tired of the mindset "you have to have a man/woman" and truthfully, I expect more from Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. 

I did love the final scene of the two of them in the balloon wit the arms around each other.  I could see how much love there in that relationship.

Fonda and Tomlin are reflecting exactly what you are saying!  They are illustrating that women don't need a man.  That does not exclude a brief relationship for a little sex (Jacob and Phil) but we don't see either of them staying with a man for very long.  The premise of this show is girlfriends are the most important thing.  They say this in interviews when talking about their own lives.  

[PaulaO]

@wings707, I hope you are right.  What I'm seeing is Brianna thinks she's not complete without a man, Bud and Allison are together (and she's goofy as all get out and he could do so much better and why could she not have an abortion?), and Robert and Sol have twue love.  That all overshadows (IMHO) the important message which is, as you say, girlfriends are the most important.

I do love the show though.

[Wings]

25 minutes ago, PaulaO said:

@wings707, I hope you are right.  What I'm seeing is Brianna thinks she's not complete without a man, Bud and Allison are together (and she's goofy as all get out and he could do so much better and why could she not have an abortion?), and Robert and Sol have twue love.  That all overshadows (IMHO) the important message which is, as you say, girlfriends are the most important.

I do love the show though.

These are all exaggerated characters in a comedy.  This show is not a drama aiming to show a possible real life scenario.   Nor does it preach or claim to show good role modeling.   It is for fun!  

We don't know what is going to happen with Alison next season.  My guess is she is faking the pregnancy or has talked herself into the fact without a doctors exam.  She is nuts!  

Re bold.  There is no important message here.  They are showing what a good and valuable relationship between 2 women can be.  Lily and Jane talked (interview) about how valuable their women friends are in their lives.  

I tried to post a link and it didn't work thus the big blank space.  Google Fonda and Tomlin interview on ted.com

Edited March 30, 2017 by wings707

[UsernameFatigue]

I watched the last few episodes back to back so do not remember what conversation happened in which one, but from what I remember the first conversation about Jacob moving was that is would happen sometime in the future as he was getting tired of running the farm. In fact Frankie did not even know he had a home in Santa Fe. Then it moves (I thought) to Frankie going with Jacob for a visit to Santa Fe for a weekend. Then all of a sudden they are moving there? I thought the whole thing was way too rushed, and almost like there were different writers for each epi not paying attention to what was written in the previous episode(s).

I also did not for a minute believe that Jacob would be pressuring Frankie to move after she has just had a mini stroke and found out she had had a previous one. She has enough to deal with lifestyle changes and getting used to her new reality, so I do not believe that if he really loves Frankie he would add that stress to her life. Nor do I think, as he has been written so far, that he would be mad a Grace and blame her for changing Frankie's mind. (Other than he was a jerk when he was honing in on their business meetings which was inappropriate). Just sloppy writing in my opinion and not believable at all. 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, PaulaO said:

@wings707, I hope you are right.  What I'm seeing is Brianna thinks she's not complete without a man, Bud and Allison are together (and she's goofy as all get out and he could do so much better and why could she not have an abortion?), and Robert and Sol have twue love.  That all overshadows (IMHO) the important message which is, as you say, girlfriends are the most important.

I do love the show though.

My take isn't that Brianna thinks she's not complete without a man, but that she's realized she wants more than she's allowed herself to want.

To me, they seem to be addressing the very messy business of relationships on a number of different levels. Every character on the show has a different challenge/desire when it comes to relationships, whether it's romantic, familial, or friendships. I, personally, like that being explored.

[zxy556575]

22 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Add me to the list who believes that Frankie isn't going anywhere.  No one is more enmeshed with their family (and their best friend's family, which is also now her ex-husband's family) than Frankie. In fact, it really all sort of seems like a false build-up to me.

I understand the dramatic possibilities inherent in Frankie leaving -- and having her and Grace grapple with the emotional aspects is an interesting storyline -- but come on. Maybe Kelly & [fill in the co-host] can get away with it, but this shows needs both of its named stars. I just hope the writers don't take the chickenshit way out and have Jacob die. I'd also prefer not to see Frankie leave and after a week, sitcommily realize she misses everyone and come right back.

[MaiSoCalled]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

My take isn't that Brianna thinks she's not complete without a man, but that she's realized she wants more than she's allowed herself to want.

To me, they seem to be addressing the very messy business of relationships on a number of different levels. Every character on the show has a different challenge/desire when it comes to relationships, whether it's romantic, familial, or friendships. I, personally, like that being explored.

I agree. I think it's less that Brianna wants a man, and more that she found someone who makes her happy. She's learning that there's more to life than work, and that is a beautiful lesson. Maybe she won't get married. Maybe the relationship will crash and burn within a week. But I think in the end, we will find a warmer Brianna. Someone who truly will be the Frankie to Mallory's children, not only as a bad influence, but also with some of Frankie's kindness. 

I'm not remotely invested in Barry, but I'm very invested in Brianna learning that it's okay to feel and love. 

On the flip side of the coin, Mallory learned that she is happier without a man. Considering that before this season, the character has been entirely about her family, I think that's huge. 

[Clanstarling]

25 minutes ago, MaiSoCalled said:

I agree. I think it's less that Brianna wants a man, and more that she found someone who makes her happy. She's learning that there's more to life than work, and that is a beautiful lesson. Maybe she won't get married. Maybe the relationship will crash and burn within a week. But I think in the end, we will find a warmer Brianna. Someone who truly will be the Frankie to Mallory's children, not only as a bad influence, but also with some of Frankie's kindness. 

I'm not remotely invested in Barry, but I'm very invested in Brianna learning that it's okay to feel and love. 

On the flip side of the coin, Mallory learned that she is happier without a man. Considering that before this season, the character has been entirely about her family, I think that's huge. 

Yes, this is what I was struggling to say. Much clearer and to the point than my post. I agree about Mallory as well.

[halleygee]

On 3/30/2017 at 2:48 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

I watched the last few episodes back to back so do not remember what conversation happened in which one, but from what I remember the first conversation about Jacob moving was that is would happen sometime in the future as he was getting tired of running the farm. In fact Frankie did not even know he had a home in Santa Fe. Then it moves (I thought) to Frankie going with Jacob for a visit to Santa Fe for a weekend. Then all of a sudden they are moving there? I thought the whole thing was way too rushed, and almost like there were different writers for each epi not paying attention to what was written in the previous episode(s).

I also did not for a minute believe that Jacob would be pressuring Frankie to move after she has just had a mini stroke and found out she had had a previous one. She has enough to deal with lifestyle changes and getting used to her new reality, so I do not believe that if he really loves Frankie he would add that stress to her life. Nor do I think, as he has been written so far, that he would be mad a Grace and blame her for changing Frankie's mind. (Other than he was a jerk when he was honing in on their business meetings which was inappropriate). Just sloppy writing in my opinion and not believable at all. 

I was going to say all of this! Agree that it moved from him casually saying he's moving and hadn't even told Frankie he had a place there to it being these big plans that Grace ruined. Completely out of character for Jacob and even Frankie, though this happened throughout the season. The writing was very sloppy throughout and characters became inconsistent, which was disappointing. 

[Wings]

I think we will see more love interests come and go quickly.  Grace and Frankie will remain together for however long this lasts.  To create some interesting plot lines they have to bring in more characters to interact with them.  This would turn into a sitcom otherwise. 

I am able to roll with most of the plot devices that move the story along. 

[tenativelyyours]

After last season and now this one, I can honestly say that I would love if season four cut down on Saul and Robert considerably.  I really only find them interesting as part of the overall family dynamic or how their relationships with Grace and Frankie continue to evolve.  I found the play plotline tedious.  Whereas the plot with Robert's mother worked because it tied into how he treated Grace in the past and how he had changed in the present.

I do like the kids and wish they were featured a bit more.  Bud is my favorite character of them all because he is not "normal" but yet is the closest to being a greek chorus in some ways.  Diane comes close at times, but like a comet she swings in and then flies out and wobbles.  Mallory's marital woes are a bit trite and a bit way too long in coming -- I think I saw (and agreed) that the potential for her husband to be cheating on her from the first time he was on was there and at the least their marriage was not a strong one (in contrast to the flash back episode with him and Coyote being friends at the holiday weekend which I thought was such a rich and interesting element that never got fully explored -- i.e. what made Mallory fall in love with the guy and how at a point in the past he was a full member of the family).   I thought the story with Diane and the male whore was actually well done but it didn't quite fit in this show.  They do that each season though.  Have a sort of intricate subplot that gets explored well but never seems the right fit for the overall show itself.  At least in my opinion.

 

I liked the introduction of the Peter Gallagher character and didn't think I would.  I wouldn't mind if he was brought back for another season though I would be fine if he was nothing more than a past reference.  I do want to see Bud has a Baby as a story line.  I think because he, like Diane, seems to have a stronger tie with both Grace and Frankie in a way.  The elevator scene and how Jane Fonda as Grace interacts with 'Bud' was so well done and spoke of how despite the friction between Grace and Frankie in their past, there was also some great fondness and appreciation that simply wasn't realized in the time and makes the current situation as this weird off kilter extended family work.   And not reduce the bond between the two women as something trite to sell greeting cards or flavored coffee.

[iMonrey]

The thing with Frankie and Jacob makes me nuts because they have it backwards. It's not Frankie who has to decide what to do, it's Jacob. Frankie has already made a commitment to Grace and to their business; she hasn't made any commitment to Jacob. Jacob is the one who wants to change the dynamics of their relationship by moving away. That's his choice and it's fine but he's the one who needs to decide if he wants to be with Frankie, or if he wants to move. Instead he put this all on Frankie like she has to make a choice between him and Grace and that's not how it should work.

In that regard I agree with the complaints that the story seems to be veering into "women must have men to be complete" or "women must choose between love and friendship" because they're creating a conflict here that's very old-school. Should Frankie choose love? Well, it shouldn't be a choice for her - it's a choice for Jacob. He's the one who wants to move. 

Overall I enjoyed the season but I didn't like where it went in the end and the stroke thing was also a real downer.