S05.E04: What's the Matter with Kansas?

[Umbelina]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigy_(online_service)

Being online in Feb 1984, this was what I wondered about....

Quote

Subscribers were charged a flat monthly fee that provided unlimited access. Initially, a monthly rate was charged for an unlimited usage time and 30 personal messages. Subscribers could purchase additional messages for a fee. Later, Prodigy would divide its service into "Core" and "Plus" sections. Core section usage remained unlimited, but Plus sections were limited by usage time. Subscribers were given a monthly allotment of Plus time and if that time was exceeded, the subscriber would incur additional charges based on usage time. Subscribers could easily tell what type of section they were in by looking at a blue indicator in the bottom-right corner of the screen.

Quote

Two of Prodigy's most popular services turned out to be its message boards and email. Because Prodigy's business model depended on rapidly growing advertising and online shopping revenue, email was developed primarily to aid shopping, not for general communication between users, which in practice is what it became. The message boards resulted in users being connected to the service far longer than projected. This resulted in higher than expected expenses, adversely affecting the service's cash flow and profitability.

My guess is that if Henry was communicating with others through computers, he would have begun with liking the games, then possibly be a geek with coding, then been one of the first with figuring out how to game the system for messages etc.

Anyway.

I STILL think Stan was covering his own butt with the blackmail "I killed a guy" stuff.  Oleg has as much damaging information on Stan as Stan has on him.  As soon as it happened on screen I thought, and even "said" in my head, "Wow!  BRILLIANT move Stan!" thinking he was sneakier and more savvy than we thought.  I realize now I could be wrong, and I'm not saying a part of that move was to aid Oleg, but to me?  It was a side effect not a goal. 

The funny thing is though?  Oleg is not the only one with that information.  Arkady knew it all, Nina probably confessed it all in the prison as well, Arkady reported it to the KGB every step of the way...lots of people in Russia know about Stan.  He'd be in their system

Stan didn't have to make that tape to burn Oleg, that was his braggy self showing his bosses what he could do.  All he had to do is say Oleg told him about the scientist/biotoxin, and he wasn't wired.  He made that choice, even while admiring Oleg for doing the right thing. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Stan didn't have to make that tape to burn Oleg, that was his braggy self showing his bosses what he could do.  All he had to do is say Oleg told him about the scientist/biotoxin, and he wasn't wired.  He made that choice, even while admiring Oleg for doing the right thing. 

I don't think he did make a tape of that, actually. The tape Oleg wasn't listening to was the one he made of him and Oleg talking about Zanaida back in the day. He was hoping to use that tape to get Oleg I think.

Although I guess it's weird that the FBI didn't try to get Oleg before this. Oh wait, I think how it worked was that Stan played the tape for the FBI to prove that his secret plan with Oleg was awesome, because he was going to burn Oleg and also get Nina traded for Zinaida. Instead the FBI traded for somebody they actually wanted. Stan, having already formed a relationship with Oleg, was presumed to be still working him.

So Stan just didn't think that the tape he made would be used. But really they only used it because Stan himself wouldn't get involved with Oleg in Moscow. Because if it was Stan leaning on him Oleg might not need a tape to know he was in trouble.  I think.

Sort of reminds me of on Mad Men when

Spoiler

Burt Cooper brushes off revelations about Don to Don's relief, only to have Burt later on bring it up to make Don do what he wants. Don and Stan both think that once the damning info is used once and doesn't have a big effect, it's no longer in play. But of course they're wrong.

I would also think, going back to Stan trying to protect himself, that Oleg might now go after Stan the way he hadn't been considering before. He thinks Stan's using him, he might try to use what he knows against him. He might even go to Arkady or help--he's in Moscow too, even if we haven't seen him, and it would actually make perfect sense for the two of them to get together as former colleagues who both still work in the biz. I don't know if Oleg would confess what was going on to Arkady, but he's got good reason to trust the guy. In fact, it would be a nice reflection of all the fathers and sons this season, since Arkady has been a father figure to Oleg. One who even let him down when Oleg felt he wasn't sufficiently caring about Nina.

[shura]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I STILL think Stan was covering his own butt with the blackmail "I killed a guy" stuff.  Oleg has as much damaging information on Stan as Stan has on him.  As soon as it happened on screen I thought, and even "said" in my head, "Wow!  BRILLIANT move Stan!" thinking he was sneakier and more savvy than we thought.  I realize now I could be wrong, and I'm not saying a part of that move was to aid Oleg, but to me?  It was a side effect not a goal.

Whatever his goal, how is Stan expecting this to be successful? His play is "I committed a crime, and if you don't do what I want, I will tell everybody that I committed a crime." If that were to work, then any federal employee in a sensitive area would pretty much get impunity the minute they were hired, and would be free to not only commit crimes, but also help themselves to whatever they could think to extract from their bosses via this "blackmail." At some point (or right off the bat?) this would become a bigger problem than an embarrassing but harmless international scandal.

As it stands, what's there to stop the Deputy AG from saying "Thank you, Stan, let me call someone to take you to jail now", then call the Russian embassy and go "Hey, good news! We've caught the criminal who shot Vlad Kosygin! Terrible, terrible tragedy..."? And then proceed to let the CIA do whatever they want with Oleg?

[Cosmosgravitation]

49 minutes ago, shura said:

Whatever his goal, how is Stan expecting this to be successful? His play is "I committed a crime, and if you don't do what I want, I will tell everybody that I committed a crime."

Stan claimed there was a group of FBI agents in on the kidnapping and murder.  If it were just a lone agent most people would write that off as one bad apple, but if a large group really had murdered Vlad and covered it up it'd be a huge scandal.  Important to note that Stan is lying and acted alone.

I'm not convinced his play will work long-term, we'll have to wait and see.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Cosmosgravitation
typo

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

Important to note that Stan is lying and acted alone.

I think he might have said that there were multiple agents in on the kidnapping (they were trying for Arkady), which was true. He said that he was the only person involved in the murder of Vlad.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, shura said:

Whatever his goal, how is Stan expecting this to be successful? His play is "I committed a crime, and if you don't do what I want, I will tell everybody that I committed a crime." If that were to work, then any federal employee in a sensitive area would pretty much get impunity the minute they were hired, and would be free to not only commit crimes, but also help themselves to whatever they could think to extract from their bosses via this "blackmail." At some point (or right off the bat?) this would become a bigger problem than an embarrassing but harmless international scandal.

As it stands, what's there to stop the Deputy AG from saying "Thank you, Stan, let me call someone to take you to jail now", then call the Russian embassy and go "Hey, good news! We've caught the criminal who shot Vlad Kosygin! Terrible, terrible tragedy..."? And then proceed to let the CIA do whatever they want with Oleg?

Stan killed a guy with diplomatic immunity without authorization.  The original plan was to kill Arkady but because it was extrajudicial Stan had backed out of it originally.   It was only when Amador got killed that he even agreed to be a part of the plan.  Then they kidnapped the wrong guy and Stan shot him in the back of the head.

If Stan publicly states any of this it could cause major problems especially if the Soviet Union wants to make a case of it.  The Soviet Union could more then claim Stan didn't act on his own and murdered a Russian citizen on American soil with the Presidents approval.  

If the Deputy AG gives over Stan to the Russians how long would it take before they have him publically confessing That the whole plan was directly approved by Reagan himself?

Edited April 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[shura]

Oh, they certainly wouldn't give Stan up to the Russians. I wonder if they could lock him up and conduct a closed trial? And present his testimony as delusional (I mean, what normal law enforcement agent shoots a diplomat in cold blood?) if it reaches the public?

The fact of the matter is, he murdered someone, can they really let him go free? And if they can because they are corrupt like that and really need to cover it up, the cover-up will have to involve removing Stan from the equation anyhow. You just can't let this ticking time bomb keep ticking out in the open, he always may go public with this thing unless he is locked up or worse. 

Of course, Stan probably got Pastor Tim's lawyer's number and sent him his own tape already, so the government is kind of screwed there. Yeah, they've got to hush him up and discredit the hell out of him before anything has a chance to go public.

[Umbelina]

That's why I really think blondie is KGB.  Just like the CIA is trying to use Oleg because they have information on him, why wouldn't the KGB try to blackmail or use Stan as well?  They both screwed up.

No way would Arkady go out on a limb for Oleg like that, if he hears about treason, he'd report it, especially if he's still back in the USSR.

1985 was the year of the USA traitorous spies though, and it really began in '84.  I wonder if they are going to play that end of history a bit using Stan?

We do know he just wanted them to stop trying to use Oleg, I just thought at the time it was to cover his own ass, since Oleg knows a bunch of stuff about Stan, but perhaps it was just to help Oleg.  I'm sure we'll find out.  I just can't picture Stan risking life in prison for a KGB agent that was fucking his girlfriend, or throwing away his career for Oleg.  I doubt he'd do that for anyone, let alone for the KGB. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That's why I really think blondie is KGB.  Just like the CIA is trying to use Oleg because they have information on him, why wouldn't the KGB try to blackmail or use Stan as well?  They both screwed up.

Why would they need blondie for that? It seems like if they've already got dirt on him--like with Oleg--they don't need to introduce a fake person into his life to pump him for more info. Just start leveraging what they've got. Nina was reporting on him for most of their affair when she was working with the FBI with him.

Btw, I liked that someone elsewhere, in imagining Renee as KGB, described the KGB as sending a "parade" or KGB agents into this guy's life to surround him and it was pretty accurate. Gaad got two guys who seemed like the C-team at best. Stan had Nina, Oleg, Elizabeth and Philip so far, and now maybe another one.

[Umbelina]

Why not?  They already know Stan is very easy to honey trap, susceptible to that kind of approach...

I'm sure the file on him is massive.

[Erin9]

9 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Stan willing to sacrifice himself to protect Oleg was the one point of interest in this whole episode for me.  

I can totally relate to Philip getting bored with all of this at this point.  Use nice person as a mark and gain their trust, get the info you need and possibly ruin their life in the fallout, feel kinda bad about it but move on to the next job ... lather, rinse, repeat ...      As a viewer, I'm starting to lose interest myself!

Other than the Pastor Tim and Alice stuff, this season seems almost completely disconnected from last season.  Losing Martha, Gad, William, and Nina (even if her story was depressing and silo-ed from the rest of the show) really messed with the continuity.  Also, dropping the infectious diseases stuff and moving right onto grain and pests ... 

I'm starting to get impatient for Stan to get suspicious of Philip and Elizabeth already.  Or for Paige to really fuck up and blow their cover.  

 I don't much care about Stan finding out. He can find out in the last 15 minutes of the show as far as I'm concerned. His reaction would be interesting don't get me wrong, but I'm not dying for him to find out. There are plenty of other things I'm interested in right now anyway.

Part of it is probably that I generally find the Jennings more likeable than Stan. He's done a lot that I didn't care for and couldn't sympathize with- treatment of his wife and son, how he recruited Nina, how he put no real effort into saving his marriage until after Nina was gone, revenge murder of Vlad- still one of the worst things I've seen any character do, even his blow up at Philip when he thought he was having an affair and  the way he handled the apology, etc. Stan's a good agent, an okay guy- I guess. But I don't really root for him that often- though I hope he can help Oleg. 

If Stan really wonders about them, all he has to do is do a quick record check like he did for William and the 2 illegals murdered by their son. It wouldn't take any time at all. There is another season after this one after all. It shouldn't be time consuming. I guess it could be, but it shouldn't. 

Paige has screwed up enough already. Any more would be redundant imo. Same goes for Henry. But, who knows what the writers have in mind. 

It was time to move on from the infectious disease story imo. They got the samples Moscow wanted. William is dead. Time to move on. What I like about the food plot is how deeply personal it is. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Erin9

[SWLinPHX]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:50 PM, J-Man said:

Philip's Kansas "target" was played by Clea Lewis, whose most memorable role (for me anyway) was as Ellen's giggly, always-in-pink friend Audrey Penny on "Ellen."

On 3/30/2017 at 2:14 AM, AllyB said:

She was in her 20s and early 30s on Ellen and is in her 50s now, she was also physically exerting herself on the bike. If anything she's aged really well.

I loved Audrey.  The episode where the character was first introduced was the best.  I think it was the first season when "Ellen" was still called "These Friends Of Mine".  The episode explored some of the issues with Call Waiting and how if you didn't hold the hang-up button long enough it would not switch over and stay on the first caller.  Audrey mistakenly hears Ellen (who thinks she's talking to the first caller) say how annoying Audrey is and how she hates talking to her, and is understandably hurt and hangs up.

Later, wracked with guilt and to make up for it Ellen tries to befriend Audrey and takes her to dinner.  She tries to make small talk and bring up generic topics but is wary because Audrey has a way of always making it negative or finding fault with everything, even something as innocuous as the Secretary-General of the United Nations:

ELLEN:  I was just reading about Boutros Boutros-Ghali's speech at the U.N.

AUDREY: Oh, I can't stand Boutros Boutros-Ghali!  And what's with the name "Boutros Boutros"??  It's like "hello, we heard you the first time!"

Edited April 2, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[SWLinPHX]

On 3/31/2017 at 0:42 PM, Clanstarling said:

What do you mean about rolling fingers?

The little trick with the fingertips Philip and Elizabeth showed Paige to keep from opening up or revealing too much.

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, shura said:

You just can't let this ticking time bomb keep ticking out in the open, he always may go public with this thing unless he is locked up or worse. 

I have no clue what Stan does next. That confession took me by surprise. That's why I like this description of him as a "ticking time bomb."

A lot of strange stuff has happened since Stan joined the counterintelligence unit. If his superiors have finally taken notice, perhaps they, too, are wondering about his next move. That's why I suspect that Renee is an FBI agent keeping an eye on Stan.

[ThoughtAFool]

On 3/30/2017 at 1:45 AM, Bretton said:

But I don't think she's FBI, nor KGB. My first bet would be a third party (neither Soviet nor American) - perhaps Israeli. 

That  was my thought, too.  Any agency would look at "lonely divorced guy" Stan as a pretty obvious target for the honeytrap even if they don't know he's fallen for it already...  And if P&E and the KGB can compromise her, they could then use threat of exposing her to get their share of her intel themselves.

From the writers' standpoint, I imagine there are also possibilities for tension from suspicion of her even if it's unjustified, as well.  Or drama on the Soviet end if there's an KGB (or communist satellite) operation that is unknowingly running up against P&E's turf.  (With no window into the Soviet embassy right now, that's less appealing story-wise, though I suppose it could be a battle for Gabriel/Claudia).

[ThoughtAFool]

I'm looking at the "sons" plots as potentially squeezing Phillip and Elizabeth on their ideological motivations.  

Some of Tuan's more extreme comments about Pasha's family's ingratitude have drawn a bit of a side-eye even from the more ideological Elizabeth, and may have given her something to differentiate herself from. She sounded a little labored in having to remind herself about the "trying to starve millions of people" to convince herself not to like GorpGuy.  

The Misha plot-line risks bringing in a son who has more information about the shortfalls of the "Workers' Paradise" to the already ideologically wobbly Phillip (who is also hearing corroborating info from the defector...) just as he and Elizabeth are both dealing with hiding from Paige some of the more morally questionable things they're doing in service of the cause.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

If Stan really wonders about them, all he has to do is do a quick record check like he did for William and the 2 illegals murdered by their son. It wouldn't take any time at all.

To be fair, in 1984 it would take a lot of time. The only reason they got William so quickly (but with multiple agents involved) is that they had clues from Oleg. Otherwise, as they showed when they looked for Phillip's fake id as Martha's husband - they'd have to cast a wide net to find death certificates, which takes a lot of effort involving agencies around the country. It is unlikely that Stan, on his own, could do that.

Plus, in his mind, Stan has already confirmed they were okay - based on his suspicions in the premiere episode, when he did check by breaking into their house, and examined the car (which was the reason he was suspicious, as it matched the car in the operation P&E had in the beginning of the episode.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Clanstarling

[SlovakPrincess]

Quote

 

 I don't much care about Stan finding out. He can find out in the last 15 minutes of the show as far as I'm concerned. His reaction would be interesting don't get me wrong, but I'm not dying for him to find out. There are plenty of other things I'm interested in right now anyway.

Part of it is probably that I generally find the Jennings more likeable than Stan. He's done a lot that I didn't care for and couldn't sympathize with- treatment of his wife and son, how he recruited Nina, how he put no real effort into saving his marriage until after Nina was gone, revenge murder of Vlad- still one of the worst things I've seen any character do, even his blow up at Philip when he thought he was having an affair and  the way he handled the apology, etc. Stan's a good agent, an okay guy- I guess. But I don't really root for him that often- though I hope he can help Oleg.

 

I don't necessarily root for Stan, since he deserves to be in jail for Vlad (as do the Jennings for all the people they've killed to advance or hide their plots).  But all this hand-wringing by the Jennings that Paige shouldn't be with Matthew too much, and the ending scenes of last season that hinted Stan might be suspicious ... and then that tension is going nowhere right now.  What's the point of the spies living next to the FBI agent if it doesn't go somewhere after all this time?   

The show has a limited number of seasons, so they need to start moving that part of the show - an undercurrent since the pilot - forward at some point.  I'll be pretty pissed if Stan just finds out in the series finale or something.  

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

To be fair, in 1984 it would take a lot of time. The only reason they got William so quickly (but with multiple agents involved) is that they had clues from Oleg. Otherwise, as they showed when they looked for Phillip's fake id as Martha's husband - they'd have to cast a wide net to find death certificates, which takes a lot of effort involving agencies around the country. It is unlikely that Stan, on his own, could do that.

Plus, in his mind, Stan has already confirmed they were okay - based on his suspicions in the premiere episode, when he did check by breaking into their house, and examined the car (which was the reason he was suspicious, as it matched the car in the operation P&E had in the beginning of the episode.

But if he started to suspectPhilip and Elizabeth, he'd have their names as starting point to check the records. William took more effort because they had to figure out who was the illegal. If he suspects the Jennings, he already has names at least. Seems like it would be easier, even if it was a solo investigation. 

I have to admit, I never did buy Stan's suspicions in the pilot. Seemed flimsy. He liked Philip, but something seemed off. Seemed based on nothing really- unlike Martha and  Zinaidia. It felt more like a way to start the show with a bang than anything organic, even if Stan was just coming off his own undercover op. 

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

But if he started to suspectPhilip and Elizabeth, he'd have their names as starting point to check the records. William took more effort because they had to figure out who was the illegal. If he suspects the Jennings, he already has names at least. Seems like it would be easier, even if it was a solo investigation. 

I have to admit, I never did buy Stan's suspicions in the pilot. Seemed flimsy. He liked Philip, but something seemed off. Seemed based on nothing really- unlike Martha and  Zinaidia. It felt more like a way to start the show with a bang than anything organic, even if Stan was just coming off his own undercover op. 

You are right that he'd  have their names. They had Clark's name, and they still required the FBI bureaus from all around the country to comb through the death records for a likely contender. So for a one man operation, it would be, in my opinion, pretty well impossible for him to find the death records that would prove they had false identities.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I don't necessarily root for Stan, since he deserves to be in jail for Vlad (as do the Jennings for all the people they've killed to advance or hide their plots).  But all this hand-wringing by the Jennings that Paige shouldn't be with Matthew too much, and the ending scenes of last season that hinted Stan might be suspicious ... and then that tension is going nowhere right now.  What's the point of the spies living next to the FBI agent if it doesn't go somewhere after all this time?   

The show has a limited number of seasons, so they need to start moving that part of the show - an undercurrent since the pilot - forward at some point.  I'll be pretty pissed if Stan just finds out in the series finale or something.  

To me, Stan and now Matthew are just a source of continual tension and stress on them more than anything. They always worry about it. Part of the Matthew question though  is-not just will Paige screw up, but  through that relationship, who will Paige become? She could wind up more like her parents in the end.  All the hand wringing over Pastor Tim has yet to be much more than a lot of stress. And that mess kicked in at the end of season 3. 

 I want Stan to find out, but I'm just generally not in a big hurry. Then what? Seems like game over to me. I know it's coming eventually. Regardless of how this plays out, I do trust the writers to make it interesting. I'm really enjoying the now too much anyway to care about when Stan gets suspicious  - I'm interested in how their marriage develops, how mischa will factor in, how Paige and Henry develop, how Henry finds out the truth, the truth about Stan's girlfriend, what happens to Oleg, the food plot endgame, Philip's past......

There was no hint that Stan was suspicious at the end of season 4 that I saw. Philip and Elizabeth were worried that he might be- that William talked- but Stan's giddiness over the kids dating pretty much quelled any concerns. Stan still isn't suspicious best I can tell. And to be fair, he's had no reason to be. And even if weird things happen- it's a pretty big leap to- oh they're the spies I've been looking for. It would take something big, I would think. 

But, then, I also don't care to see an end where they're dead or in prison. That's when I ask- what was the point? To me, this is more of a show about family and marriage with the backdrop being the dangerous, high stakes spy world. I don't know my idea of a perfect ending, but I know what it isn't. 

13 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

You are right that he'd  have their names. They had Clark's name, and they still required the FBI bureaus from all around the country to comb through the death records for a likely contender. So for a one man operation, it would be, in my opinion, pretty well impossible for him to find the death records that would prove they had false identities.

Maybe solo would be difficult, but I still think the record checking would be do-able. And easier than a lot of his other options to catch them. 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It was time to move on from the infectious disease story imo. They got the samples Moscow wanted. William is dead. Time to move on. What I like about the food plot is how deeply personal it is. 

Yes, I do think it's cool that they're finally getting into Philip's past using this. Elizabeth's past has been connected to the main stories in the past--in the first season and the third season Elizabeth was dealing with putting the Cause above her family and her flashbacks were basically about that. I love the idea that a season about famine would finally dig into Philip's past in a personal way because it's always seemed like he had some background of deprivation and loss.

4 hours ago, ThoughtAFool said:

That  was my thought, too.  Any agency would look at "lonely divorced guy" Stan as a pretty obvious target for the honeytrap even if they don't know he's fallen for it already...  And if P&E and the KGB can compromise her, they could then use threat of exposing her to get their share of her intel themselves.

Though they couldn't do it themselves because then they'd be revealing themselves to her, so she could blackmail them too.

 

3 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I don't necessarily root for Stan, since he deserves to be in jail for Vlad (as do the Jennings for all the people they've killed to advance or hide their plots).  But all this hand-wringing by the Jennings that Paige shouldn't be with Matthew too much, and the ending scenes of last season that hinted Stan might be suspicious ... and then that tension is going nowhere right now.  What's the point of the spies living next to the FBI agent if it doesn't go somewhere after all this time?   

I don't think there was any hint Stan was suspicious at the end of season 4--the opposite, really. I've liked that they haven't really made it a source of tension at all. They're good at their job, Stan has nothing to be suspicious of--yet.

47 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

You are right that he'd  have their names. They had Clark's name, and they still required the FBI bureaus from all around the country to comb through the death records for a likely contender. So for a one man operation, it would be, in my opinion, pretty well impossible for him to find the death records that would prove they had false identities.

With Clark they had to check how many Clark Westerfields existed. With Philip and Elizabeth it would be easy as pie to just find their social security numbers since they know which ones they're talking about. Then you check and see if there's a death record connected to it. It would be even faster than William. If Stan starts to get suspicious he'd have to be suspicious of something else--like be on the wrong track--to drag it out at all.

I want to get more into the relationships between the Jennings and their kids in these last episodes. Not just Paige slowly asking questions about what they do, but more understanding who they are as people and why they would do what they do. I like it when she hits on something where it's explained to her that they just didn't think the way she does. Like when Elizabeth was asked if she was afraid to take this job, and Philip was asked if he liked where he grew up.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

With Philip and Elizabeth it would be easy as pie to just find their social security numbers since they know which ones they're talking about. Then you check and see if there's a death record connected to it.

I think the KGB would have anticipated this possibility and given Philip and Elizabeth credentials that check out on more than just a cursory level. I don't think discovering that they're illegals would be easy, even for the FBI.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the KGB would have anticipated this possibility and given Philip and Elizabeth credentials that check out on more than just a cursory level. I don't think discovering that they're illegals would be easy, even for the FBI.

We've seen that's exactly how easy it is. They've done it four times. There's just nothing the KGB can do about it. Stealing a social security number from a real person is a smart thing to do, and it does check out on more than jut a cursory level because when people look up those numbers they just check to see that the person exists. If they were trying to do any of the normal things they'd do, or establish an identity, it works.

But if the FBI suspects a person is an illegal, then they ask specifically if the person with that number died, and that's when they discover that the person is using a false ID. So if an Illegal was applying for a job with that number, it would check out. It's only when the FBI suspects they're faking their identity that it falls apart. They did it with Clark, Leanne, Emmett and William. If Stan suspected P&E of being Illegals, it would not be hard for him to verify that they are using dead peoples' identities. The trick is in him suspecting them enough to check it.

[dubbel zout]

Never mind; makes no sense.

Edited April 2, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Ellaria]

5 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I don't necessarily root for Stan, since he deserves to be in jail for Vlad (as do the Jennings for all the people they've killed to advance or hide their plots).  But all this hand-wringing by the Jennings that Paige shouldn't be with Matthew too much ... and then that tension is going nowhere right now.  What's the point of the spies living next to the FBI agent if it doesn't go somewhere after all this time?   

The show has a limited number of seasons, so they need to start moving that part of the show - an undercurrent since the pilot - forward at some point.  I'll be pretty pissed if Stan just finds out in the series finale or something.  

It will go somewhere; its just a matter of when. And I think that they are establishing the framework for it now: the eager girlfriend, his confession, Oleg's predicament, Paige and Matthew's relationship, P&E's increasing paranoia. I want to see this storyline moved forward but its important that it happen in a reasonable - and appropriately dramatic - way. After all, this is "the other shoe" that has been poised to drop since the first episode.

I don't particularly care how Stan finds out about P&E. I am much more interested in what he does after he finds out. Of course, how he finds out will influence his next steps. And some of it depends whether the show runners view this reveal as part of Stan's character arc or if he has become a plot device. I don't think that show has been consistent with Stan.

[gwhh]

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But it's not really a theory, is it? They're two characters on the same show who've never been anywhere near each other. (People used to say Kimmie would wind up going to Pastor Tim's church and meet Paige, who was the same age.) There's no reason to think they're interacting now. I mean, they could run into each other, but Henry could just as easily run into Pasha or Tuan or Charles Deluth.

Who Charles Delith?  

[Clanstarling]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

We've seen that's exactly how easy it is. They've done it four times. There's just nothing the KGB can do about it. Stealing a social security number from a real person is a smart thing to do, and it does check out on more than jut a cursory level because when people look up those numbers they just check to see that the person exists. If they were trying to do any of the normal things they'd do, or establish an identity, it works.

But if the FBI suspects a person is an illegal, then they ask specifically if the person with that number died, and that's when they discover that the person is using a false ID. So if an Illegal was applying for a job with that number, it would check out. It's only when the FBI suspects they're faking their identity that it falls apart. They did it with Clark, Leanne, Emmett and William. If Stan suspected P&E of being Illegals, it would not be hard for him to verify that they are using dead peoples' identities. The trick is in him suspecting them enough to check it.

Except, when Phillip and Elizabeth's credentials were created in the 60's, children weren't assigned social security numbers right out of the gate like they are today. They didn't steal a real person's social security number, they stole a dead child's name and birthday, and probably place of origin. The two data points (death certificate and social security number) wouldn't have been tied together in a single database like they are now.

Yes they've done it four times, but it wasn't easy any of those times, it required a lot of people and resources. So my original point was always it would be extremely difficult for Stan to do it on his own, not that it could not be done at all.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Clanstarling

[gwhh]

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the KGB would have anticipated this possibility and given Philip and Elizabeth credentials that check out on more than just a cursory level. I don't think discovering that they're illegals would be easy, even for the FBI.

For illegals.  The KGB had a whole department.  How only job was to make sure all the paperwork was right. There American cover story was 100% solid.  It could past any test. How you think William got his job at super secret lab after his background check. 

 

An an intense background check means going from birth to current when P&E.  when no one remembers going to school with them from K-12.   the jig would be up.  

 

See this his book for more info on the subject:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Protocol

Edited April 3, 2017 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

Who Charles Delith?  

Philip's agent who's the reporter.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Yes they've done it four times, but it wasn't easy any of those times, it required a lot of people and resources. So my original point was always it would be extremely difficult for Stan to do it on his own, not that it could not be done at all.

Oh yes, then I agree. I was assuming that Stan was still an FBI agent with access like he is now. In those cases we just see him say he asked people to check it out and it happened off-screen, like it was just the verification of what he thought. Or else they tracked down the right fake identity, like finding the right employee at the lab (William) or the right Clark.

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

For illegals.  The KGB had a whole department.  How only job was to make sure all the paperwork was right. There American cover story was 100% solid.  It could past any test. How you think William got his job at super secret lab after his background check. 

Right, but he was also burned quickly once they started looking at him from the other end.

Btw, William was at a private lab, right? I assume he wasn't at a government lab for the same reason the KGB wants a second generation program, because William actually wouldn't have stood up to a more intense background check.

[Erin9]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I do think it's cool that they're finally getting into Philip's past using this. Elizabeth's past has been connected to the main stories in the past--in the first season and the third season Elizabeth was dealing with putting the Cause above her family and her flashbacks were basically about that. I love the idea that a season about famine would finally dig into Philip's past in a personal way because it's always seemed like he had some background of deprivation and loss.

I want to get more into the relationships between the Jennings and their kids in these last episodes. Not just Paige slowly asking questions about what they do, but more understanding who they are as people and why they would do what they do. I like it when she hits on something where it's explained to her that they just didn't think the way she does. Like when Elizabeth was asked if she was afraid to take this job, and Philip was asked if he liked where he grew up.

 

This is what really interests me, too. It's time-arguably past time- to dig into Philip's past. I just hope they make it worth the wait. Waiting over 4 seasons to really get into his background is a long time.  

The relationships in this show are what really interests me, too. Like you, I'd like to see Paige try to understand her parents better- how it is that their Russian upbringing has left them with such a different way of looking at the world and life. The spy questions are relevant, I get, but who Philip and Elizabeth are is far more interesting imo . Especially since we already know exactly what they do. Through that, we'll get a better understanding of them. It looks like Henry will get a bit more focus. Hopefully, when he finds out, he'll take a different approach than Paige- ie less of a desire to HAVE to share. Of course, he'll have Paige. 

Another thing I'd like to see is Elizabeth tell Philip she loves him. I know she does. But, I'd like to hear her say it. Elizabeth mentioned waaay back in S2 to Lisa that she'd like to be there for Philip the way he'd been there for her. That's something else I'd like to see. 

[gwhh]

Does E know Philip sexual actions with irina?   I don't remember that coming up between them.  Wait unti E founds that out. .  I feel Mischa junior will be a footnote to that info coming out.  Good thing he got all that airborne training  

 

http://theamericans.wikia.com/wiki/Irina

Edited April 3, 2017 by gwhh

[Domestic Assassin]

Yes, Elizabeth knows what happened between Philip & Irina in NY.  It's what led to their separation in the first season.

[kokapetl]

On 02/04/2017 at 6:12 AM, Sarah 103 said:

 

That's what I thought. If Henry is pretending to be a few years older than he is and hanging out with high school students, than it's not impossible for him to cross path's with Kimmy. It's a stretch, but I think it's a solid fan theory. 

I think Oleg and Philip are both growing disillusioned with thier jobs and the Soviet system. It would be amazing to get the two of them in a room together for an off the record conversation. I know it's impossible and will never happen, but it would be amazing. 

 

That's what I thought too. The only reason they were interested in her was that she could lead them to next link in the chain. They are after much bigger fish. 

There was Arpanet. The military, major defense contractors and large universities had the early form of the internet during the late 1970s and through the early 1980s. If memory serves correct, parts of WarGames from 1983 (the idea of being hack into a company's system to access the games) were accurate. I think there were also a few primitive chatrooms at this point. Assuming Henry could get online and all was able to do was play the games AOL had, I think he'd be happy (unless the games totally sucked).

Philip "downloaded" Arpanet in the episode Arpanet. 

9 hours ago, gwhh said:

Does E know Philip banged irina?   I don't remember that coming up between them.  Wait unti E founds out he banged his old love.  I feel Mischa junior will be a footnote to that info coming out.  Good thing he got all that airborne training  

 

http://theamericans.wikia.com/wiki/Irina

I think she does. That's why the Jennings split up in the first season. 

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I don't particularly care how Stan finds out about P&E. I am much more interested in what he does after he finds out. Of course, how he finds out will influence his next steps. And some of it depends whether the show runners view this reveal as part of Stan's character arc or if he has become a plot device. 

This is an interesting point I hadn't considered before this moment. I'd always been so concerned with how, I never considered what would come after. 

[kokapetl]

Stan's attempt to blackmail the deputy AG could be the beginning of the end of his FBI career and a start to him becoming a communist. 

[Clanstarling]

45 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

This is an interesting point I hadn't considered before this moment. I'd always been so concerned with how, I never considered what would come after. 

For me, how Stan finds out has always been more or less irrelevant, it's his reaction and what comes after that has always been of interest to me. We all have so many different ways of looking at the characters, stories, and possible developments. It is yet another aspect of these forums that I enjoy.

[Clanstarling]

49 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Stan's attempt to blackmail the deputy AG could be the beginning of the end of his FBI career and a start to him becoming a communist. 

I agree that it could be, and likely is, the end of his FBI career. But I can't see Stan becoming a communist, ever. Having empathy for a fellow human being and being upset at a fairly predictable (though unwanted) action by your country's agencies is a far cry from turning away from everything you believe in.

Though, it would have a nice symmetry if the opposite happens to Elizabeth and Phillip after Glasnost.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Clanstarling

[gwhh]

7 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip "downloaded" Arpanet in the episode Arpanet. 

I think she does. That's why the Jennings split up in the first season. 

I though E was just mad in general about him seeing her.  I don't remember Phillip telling her that.  I will go back and watch that again. All it took for them to get back together was E taking a near fatal FBI bullet.  Hopefully, it will take less for mischa jr to be accepted by E.   

Edited April 3, 2017 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, gwhh said:

I though E was just mad in general about him seeing her.  I don't remember Phillip telling her that.  I will go back and watch that again. All it took for them to get back together was E taking a near fatal FBI bullet.  Hopefully, it will take less for mischa jr to be accepted by E.   

Yes, that was the whole reason for the separation. She couldn't object to him seeing her since that was his job. Claudia then told her that he'd slept with her after Philip told her nothing happened, so Elizabeth announced they were going back to being fake married and Philip called her bluff and said if she didn't want to be married they didn't have to be. Elizabeth kicked him out.

Elizabeth even referenced it in their fight in David Copperfield. She yelled at him that she'd taken him back after he slept with the woman that was the mother of his son.

She's already basically accepted Mischa Jr. in that she knows about him and asked Gabriel to protect him.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Stan's attempt to blackmail the deputy AG could be the beginning of the end of his FBI career and a start to him becoming a communist. 

It certainly should have career implications.  I can't see how he essentially gets away with blackmailing the deputy AG and trying to dictate CIA ops. That won't win him friends. And, much as I want Oleg saved, they shouldn't. Where does his dictating US policy end? They should assume if he'll do it once, he'll do it again next time he disagrees with policy. 

If they look at Stan's record, they see an agent with good instincts (Martha and Zinaida), but one who also has a tendency to do what he wants  and has always gotten away with it. 

I can't see Stan as a communist though. 

[dubbel zout]

Stan would never become a communist. He's still a believer in democracy. What he doesn't like is how the FBI shows no nuance with its assets and then burns them when they aren't giving them what they want. 

[Dev F]

On 4/1/2017 at 5:48 PM, Umbelina said:

I STILL think Stan was covering his own butt with the blackmail "I killed a guy" stuff.  Oleg has as much damaging information on Stan as Stan has on him.  As soon as it happened on screen I thought, and even "said" in my head, "Wow!  BRILLIANT move Stan!" thinking he was sneakier and more savvy than we thought.  I realize now I could be wrong, and I'm not saying a part of that move was to aid Oleg, but to me?  It was a side effect not a goal.

If that were the case, wouldn't the previous scenes in which Stan fretted about the CIA's blackmail scheme have focused on his fear of being compromised -- or at least mentioned it as a concern? Instead, those scenes were all about his shame over having facilitated the downfall of a decent man. It doesn't seem likely to me that the writers would go to the trouble of setting up one emotional arc only to pivot to a completely different one for the payoff.

While we're on the subject of Stan's blackmail, the more I think about it, the more I wonder how it's actually supposed to work. If someone threatens to expose you if he finds out you fucked with his buddy, isn't the easy solution to not let him find out? He only knew about the plan in the first place because the bureau briefed him on it; if they just never mention the operation again, he has no way of knowing whether they moved ahead with it or not.

[shura]

Clearly, Stan is now going to control the whole government and they will do what he says. Because if they don't, he is going to go public and cause an apparently absolutely unacceptable diplomatic scandal. It's foolproof, how have people not thought of a thing like that before?

[MaryPatShelby]

Hopefully this hasn't been mentioned (I had to skim the last couple pages), but E and her hiker friend used "right?" several times in a 2017 way, and it just jangled for me, because that was just not a thing in the 80's. For example, one was when Paige said something like "That's not a name we've heard in awhile" and Elizabeth said "Right?" 

[Milburn Stone]

On 3/29/2017 at 9:50 AM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I liked how they put a couple of instances of food waste in this episode.  The toast and also the carob at the health food store.  

Your observation makes me wonder if Elizabeth eating the carob off the floor was a kind of "tell." No American (or very few Americans, anyway) would eat food that had been on the floor for as long as the carob had. But a Russian raised in starvation instinctively would.

[Milburn Stone]

On 3/29/2017 at 3:00 PM, SWLinPHX said:

In the back of my head I'm still disturbed by the two evil, unexpected and off-the-cuff murders of Hans and the lab director. Partly because I liked their characters/personalities and partly because I can't sympathize with or think of Philip and Elizabeth in a good light.  It seems to go against how we are supposed to think of them, as basically decent people who are misguided and in a tough spot, and who believe they're doing all this for the greater good.

I see those murders (and many of the other murders P & E have committed) as the essence of the show, because they are evidence that in the end both P & E will "do what needs to be done" even when they have moral qualms. The moral conflict--do you commit an immoral act against one person in order to save millions, or don't you?--is what the show is all about.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Your observation makes me wonder if Elizabeth eating the carob off the floor was a kind of "tell." No American (or very few Americans, anyway) would eat food that had been on the floor for as long as the carob had. But a Russian raised in starvation instinctively would.

I think you're just wrong there. Sure an American would eat it in that situation--Ben's a real American and he was the one who encouraged it.

[pavlovsbell]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Your observation makes me wonder if Elizabeth eating the carob off the floor was a kind of "tell." No American (or very few Americans, anyway) would eat food that had been on the floor for as long as the carob had. But a Russian raised in starvation instinctively would.

Elizabeth ate the carob that had fallen in the bag, not any of the pieces that fell on the floor. You can see them in the bag before she bends down. 

[Macbeth]

It took me 2 weeks finish this episode.  I am having a hard time getting invested in this season.  I never had this problem.  I really miss Martha and Nina.  I think those were the stories I liked the best.