Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[MostlyC]

Do you know that we've been given Thor's Hammer?   And we're not afraid to use it.

 

Let's stay respectful of others and graciously agree to disagree. 

 

 

Otherwise....Thor.  And his Hammer.  Also, Hulk's short temper.

[BkWurm1]

I think an argument could be made that Felicity's association with Oliver is not good for her cause, yes, she's been hurting a lot this year, but It's not abuse.   Felicity would say and has said on multiple occasions that she regrets none of it.  That includes the emotional pain and the danger this line of work puts her in at times.

 

I don't want to get into the whole question of what is abuse and what isn't.  I will just say that while people who are not abused will say that they regret none of it, so will people who are abused, they will justify and explain until they finally get out.  Which, according to the research, is on average the eighth time they try to leave.

 

I expected this issue to be brought up when I was writing what I wrote, lol.   Denial is a big part of the package in abuse, absolutely, and yes, there are different levels of it but I think one clear delineator between Felicity's situation and a woman in an abusive relationship is she's always been free to make her own choices and while Oliver hasn't been perfect about not dangling maybe's, he slipped up because he does love her and wants what those maybe could give.  Otherwise, he's been supportive in anything she has decided to do.    

 

While I do think an argument could be made that Felicity's association with Oliver has not been good for her because she has experienced pain, an equally strong argument can be made that her association with Oliver HAS been good for her because not only has it made allowed her to become a hero in her own right, but it's pushed her to go after more in her life which led to her VP job at Palmer Tech, which led to her getting the whole company and on top of that opened up her heart in a way she didn't know was possible. 

 

I feel like equating the pain she's gone through in her relationship with Oliver in a way is like saying having children is abusive to the parents.   There is a lot of pain involved but it can also be the most rewarding thing ever.   There are a lot of really bumpy parts in relationships but that doesn't automatically equate to abuse even if there is an ongoing pain.  

 

It is my hope/expectation that by the end of the season we will see Felicity finally get to the purely good stuff that comes with a loving relationship...at least for a while. 

[annaharris]

I still feel like the fact Malcolm orchestrated Sara's murder has been glossed over, and is barely remembered by anyone anymore.

I feel like this too. I hate how Oliver is working with him for this reason...Malcolm killed Sara. Malcolm is the very reason he's in this position. My primary problem with the season is that the impetus of everything happening--namely, Sara's death--has not reached a satisfying conclusion because the guy who killed her is now getting a stupid redemption arc. I'm actually on Team Laurel on this. If she killed him, I'd cheer for her for the first time ever.

[annaharris]

 

Felicity asked Oliver to stop dangling maybes and so let her move on. He refused to. He told her "and you know how I feel about her", he told her he loved her as he went off to die because it made him feel better to keep telling her he loved her, not because it was better for her.  He told her when he got back that he knew she had been dreaming about being with him but he shut that right down and said he was going to work with Malcolm Merlyn.  Then he shut her out of the Team Arrow planning sessions,

 

It's just as stupid as Roy leaving Thea because he doesn't want her to be on the run from the police, and leaving her his suit so that she can get hurt by bad guys and run from the police.

 

Oliver thinking he's doing it out of love is no excuse, or rather it's the justification many people have given for hurting people they say they love. At some point, it's just pure selfishness.  Ever since Thea told him when he got back that he needs to let her in, he's been pushing away people who end up getting hurt because they love him.

When did Oliver shut Felicity out of Team Arrow planning sessions? If it's him working with Malcolm, the whole thing is dumb, but he shut everyone out of that.

 

Oliver wasn't going to lie to Felicity when she said "tell me you never loved me." So he told her the truth: he loves her. That's not the issue. The issue is that he doesn't think he can be with her, and I get that because I've lived it. Maybe not with a vigilante archer, but with a man who really believed being in a relationship with me would hurt me. 

 

You see everything Oliver did as him being selfish, but I see it as him being honest. He doesn't ever try to hide how he feels about Felicity--and he kept letting her know despite the fact that until 2 episodes ago, she had never said "I love you" to him. You assume he is completely aware of how Felicity feels about him, and I've read so much fanfiction and created so many head canons that I have my own assumptions, but on the show, the canon is that she doesn't tell him until two episodes ago. The first time he kisses her, SHE is the one who walks away. She is the one who says "I won't wait with you" when he says he's going to die there. She is the one who ignores him when he says "You know how I feel about her." She is the one who stood in silence when he was leaving, possibly to die, after he said he loved her. Then he returns, and she tells him she doesn't want to be a woman he loved before finally moving on with someone else. I did not watch a season where Felicity is pining over Oliver. I watched one where Oliver is okay with loving Felicity from afar, and he's okay with never learning how she feels about him. 

 

I also think we have different interpretation of why Roy left Thea his suit. I think there is a difference between running from the police because of something Roy has done, and making a choice about whether she wants the vigilante life, in which case she would be running because of something she CHOSE TO DO. 

 

Clearly, this is not something we are going to agree with so this is all I have left to say about this. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by annaharris

[Morena]

 

murdockandlance asked:

Do you honestly not see why ppl might get the idea that you're writing for fan service? Considering how you've ret-conned or deleted, for time wink wink nudge nudge, important character/relationship developments for Laurel, Oliver & Thea all while spending most of the season rehashing the same Olicity angst every 5 minutes? Considering how you've answered more questions about the love fern/red pen than any character not named Felicity? Your answer says one thing but the proof is in the pudding.

I get the sense that there’s no answer I could provide that would satisfy you.  I’m sorry that we’re not pursuing a romantic storyline for Oliver and Laurel.  But that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been a ton of story for Laurel this season – her evolution to Black Canary, lying to her father, the subsequent rift between the two of them, etc.

[AyChihuahua]

I came up with a show-based wank that helped me maybe not hate Oliver for the poison gas trick.  (Because I did hate him; I think that's a sick thing to do.)  He was "killed" by Yao Fei on the island, as in really thought Yao Fei was killing him, no tricks.  Then he woke up, and basically got over it pretty quickly and still wanted to help Yao Fei.  So, his own history gave him reason to believe that his team would get past it, too.  It's not perfect, because his team trusted and believed in him for three years, whereas he barely knew Yao Fei, but I think it's a reasonable fanwank.  Of course, I very much doubt the writers were thinking of that when they wrote the poison gas scene, but whatever.

[BkWurm1]

When did Oliver shut Felicity out of Team Arrow planning sessions? If it's him working with Malcolm, the whole thing is dumb, but he shut everyone out of that.

 

When the League took Malcolm back to Nanda Parbat (when Thea turned him in).   Felicity helped Oliver track him to the helicopter, but when he was whisked away, Oliver announced he needed to go to NP and bring him back.  Felicity barely expressed a "that's crazy" when Diggle for the second time in the episode asked EVERYONE else to leave so he could talk to Oliver.   In the past, Felicity would have been a part of that team meeting to discuss what was going to be done, but nope, she was sent away and the men decided to go and get captured (cause did they really think they could break in and get Malcolm out?) 

 

I hated it because it pretty much set up Felicity washing her hands of Oliver and instead she focused on trying to save Ray from himself which led to her admiring Old Masters and then sex juicing Ray's brain so he could make his suit fly (and then keep that a secret for weeks but still throwing  in Felicity's face the notion that he never kept any secrets from her while she was such a weak minded female she didn't realize how awful it was that she didn't spill the secret identity of the Arrow to a guy she was two weeks into a relationship with - I sound more bitter about that than I actually am.  It's all good Ray.  You figured out she's not Anna, got some jello and gave Felicity your company - we're square.  Look forward to seeing you in LoT) 

 

The thing is, while I agree that Felicity was being cut out of a discussion she's normally included in (probably be calling) but it wasn't really Oliver that cut her out.   It was Diggle.  

Edited May 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[olicityfan25]

It's funny he's answering questions from butthurt Lauliver fans. They throw in a Thea in there just to make it look like they actually care, but it's quite obvious what they are saying.

[BkWurm1]

It's funny he's answering questions from butthurt Lauliver fans. They throw in a Thea in there just to make it look like they actually care, but it's quite obvious what they are saying.

I was reading the comments (on his Tumblr account) and there was some hue and cry about the question having nothing to do with Lauliver but the mention of something retconned IMO really only applies to the second seasons when suddenly it was Sara that was the victim of Laurel so yeah, that very much implies IMO Lauliver was at the heart of the complaint but I do agree that it's been odd that Laurel hasn't had more interaction with Thea.

 

Still, it's not like she hasn't had any and while an argument could be made that she should have been there comforting Thea after Oliver left, Laurel instead was needed to bond with Nyssa.  The episode didn't have time for both.  Other comments complained about her not being there at the hospital when Thea was injured or allowed to go with to Nanda Parbat.  In the end though, it's not like Laurel and Thea have ever had a real close relationship.  If she'd been in an ordinary accident I don't thing anyone would expect Laurel to rush down to the hospital and while Laurel and Oliver share some big secrets, they aren't personally close anymore. 

 

The other complaint I read was about all her cut scenes, but that's the problem with a character written to have her own plot most of the time.  When heavy stuff goes down for the other characters, her addition isn't needed to tell the story.   They do include her now in the business side of heroing, (like blowing up jets in NP) just not the personal stuff.  

 

There is still a complaint about the leading lady being sidelined too often.  Personally I feel like she got plenty of character specific screen time (unlike Felicity who's screen time often wasn't about her story but propelling Ray's) but I do wish the show could make a flat out statement about it's actors.   Stephen Amell is clearly the lead but can't we just classify EVERYONE else as supporting characters and stop pretending KC is a co-lead?  I have a feeling she has a contract that says otherwise but it creates odd expectations in an ensemble show.  

Edited May 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[olicityfan25]

KC is not co-lead. When you have scenes being cut, EBR is getting more screen time based on minutes. When articles and reviewers flat out state that EBR is the leading lady than you know who is really running things.

[nksarmi]

I came up with a show-based wank that helped me maybe not hate Oliver for the poison gas trick.  (Because I did hate him; I think that's a sick thing to do.)  He was "killed" by Yao Fei on the island, as in really thought Yao Fei was killing him, no tricks.  Then he woke up, and basically got over it pretty quickly and still wanted to help Yao Fei.  So, his own history gave him reason to believe that his team would get past it, too.  It's not perfect, because his team trusted and believed in him for three years, whereas he barely knew Yao Fei, but I think it's a reasonable fanwank.  Of course, I very much doubt the writers were thinking of that when they wrote the poison gas scene, but whatever.

Ok I have hesitated to comment on the actually poison gas fake out because I think the bigger picture was him not wrapping his team in to begin with.  I don't actually think the poison gas thing is the end of the world because he had already gotten himself into a position where he couldn't give them a head's up without getting busted or even more likely, getting their heads cut off. My problem is that he got himself to this point needlessly.

 

Ignoring the fact that he really could have avoided all the conflicts with the LoA this season if he had just chopped off Merlyn's head and handed it to Nyssa on a platter.  Let's just take this particular problem into consideration....

 

1. He failed to tell Diggle from the start what was going down with the plan to dismantle the LoA from the inside (huge mistake and it tells me a lot of people don't think as much of Diggle as I do that they could defend Oliver's choice here.  Diggle is a pro, a soldier who has had Oliver's back even when he didn't agree with him.  He could have trusted Diggle with this).

 

2. He failed to have Merlyn tell them before they went to NP that at some point it might have to look like Oliver was doing seriously bad stuff to them, but at every point Oliver or Merlyn would do everything they could to protect them.  (I would rather believe that Felicity and Laurel were overacting but had full faith in Oliver than them questioning rather or not he was going to let them die).

 

3. He failed to give them any code phrasing that might have indicated everything was going to be ok. Now I know Diggle and Lyla have known each other a lot longer than Team Arrow has been working together.  But given that the CW is spoiling the fact that everyone in that cell made it out alive seconds after the show ended, couldn't the writers have just thrown fans a bone and had Oliver say something like "Felicity, I leave you with the same message Oliver Queen did when he left to meet his destiny and combat Ra's the first time." Then when Ra's asked him what that was - say something like "Everything will happen as it is fated to happen" but show the clip of Oliver saying "I know two thing...."  Or have Oliver make some reference to when he had to put her in danger to defeat Slade. Or he could have said something that would have had meaning to Diggle instead.  Just some line that Ra's would have been clueless to, but would have been a tipoff to TA. 

 

But I feel like the writers are doing this plot for the greatest possible manpain for Oliver and angst for Team Arrow and it just feels like enough is enough already.  Just stop.  Someone needs to smack these writers across the face and say, people can endure 2 hours of a depressing movie and swear they will never watch it again - you can't keep people coming back for 23 hours of television if you don't mix it up a bit.  Crap, I got so sick of Daredevil getting the snot beat out of him for 12 episodes that I'm not 100% sure how I feel about a season two of that show and that was only half the run of Arrow.

[NumberCruncher]

The other complaint I read was about all her cut scenes, but that's the problem with a character written to have her own plot most of the time.  When heavy stuff goes down for the other characters, her addition isn't needed to tell the story.   They do include her now in the business side of heroing, (like blowing up jets in NP) just not the personal stuff.

Integration into the main A plot (i.e. interaction with Oliver) is the main reason why any character could potentially suffer in terms of screentime (except in Felicity's case where she ended up servicing DC's new superhero boy toy whom they clearly needed to get his own spinoff). That integration was Laurel's problem in S2 as well as this season and has absolutely nothing to do with Felicity or Olicity. It seems to me that the showrunners still struggle trying to find ways to put Oliver and Laurel together in any non-superhero capacity and not make it seem forced and confrontational. Put them in a romantic scene together and we're right back to S1 levels of chemistry black hole. Create a scene together discussing hard things and they end up snidely bitching at each other reminiscent of S2. The only other option then is involving her in crimefighting with Team Arrow...and isn't that exactly what we got most of this season? S3 has seen the most screentime for KC since early S1 and it's largely centered around her assuming the Black Canary identity--we watched her mourning her sister, training to fight, donning the costume, getting the cry, fighting her dad's objections--so TBH I'm kind of scratching my head over here as to what all of the vitriol is about other than fans being mad that she's not Oliver's love interest.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Ok I have hesitated to comment on the actually poison gas fake out because I think the bigger picture was him not wrapping his team in to begin with.  I don't actually think the poison gas thing is the end of the world because he had already gotten himself into a position where he couldn't give them a head's up without getting busted or even more likely, getting their heads cut off. My problem is that he got himself to this point needlessly.

I basically agree, except that I think the poison gas thing is a big deal.  IRL there would be pretty serious psychological problems for at least the non-military/non-Malcolm people in that group after that.  But yes, he totally gets everyone into these terrible situations through his horrible decision-making/secret-keeping behavior, so at that point there may be no better way, but there were numerous better ways in all the moments leading up to that point.

[nksarmi]

I basically agree, except that I think the poison gas thing is a big deal.  IRL there would be pretty serious psychological problems for at least the non-military/non-Malcolm people in that group after that.  But yes, he totally gets everyone into these terrible situations through his horrible decision-making/secret-keeping behavior, so at that point there may be no better way, but there were numerous better ways in all the moments leading up to that point.

Yea I just feel like if they could have written it so that Oliver really didn't have ANY way to tip them off (three weeks ago, once Malcolm asked them to go to NP, or even when he talked to Diggle in NP - don't lead with "Is everyone ok?" lead with "I know you're pissed and you can hit me later but right now if things start looking bad just know that I or Malcolm will get you out it" or you know something in code ala Diggle to Lyla just two episodes ago) without getting him and them killed - I would have given him a pass on it.  But I just don't feel like that's what they showed us.

 

Of course I also have to hand wave that Ra's chose to use the A/O virus on Oliver Queen's friends and just walk away and then what? Does he just leave NP without having anyone check on the bodies?  I mean this Ra's is really weak sauce.  To date, his evilness is summed up as the implication that he raped Nyssa's mother and his forcing her to marry a man and presumably he plans to somehow force her to bare a child.  If he wanted to break Oliver Queen and see if he was really loyal wouldn't he have, I don't know, tried to chop someone's head off?

Edited May 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[ostentatious]

Well, thing is, there is a Loliver relationship shown onscreen. It just isn't one in which either of them like the other very much, feel inclined to keep the other posted about their life, feel particularly pressed when the other doesn't inform them of things, care to conjure up any intimacy, care to reminisce about their relationship from a decade ago, etc.

He didn't say goodbye to Laurel? I don't say goodbye to guys I used to date, either.

Laurel didn't get to say goodbye to Roy? Neither Laurel nor Roy seemed to think this was an oversight.

Laurel didn't get invited to spend time with Thea? Neither Laurel nor Thea seem to think this is an oversight. Also once you aren't dating someone your friendship with their little sister almost without fail ends. It takes a real singular closeness for it to survive without making the sister really uncomfortable, like the ex is trying to get to the guy through the sister.

Does anyone remember how Laurel sidled up to both Sara and Oliver this time last year trying to talk to them about their relationship? A thing that would be fine if she had never dated Oliver or even if she hadn't just five minutes before had a HUGE explosion at both of them over their relationship. It was super creepy and inappropriate. IRL in this situation, Thea would be wary about this woman that she has seen infrequently since before the boat suddenly pushing into her life now that Oliver is clearly committed to another woman in a way he's never committed before.

Sure, a relationship could've been established between Laurel and Thea all along the way that would make that work out but it wasn't.

These fans want the show to give them indications that Laurel's place in Oliver's life hasn't changed. That she is still the most important person. That Felicity is just a blip. And they're not going to get that because that is not the story.

I was thrilled Marc answered the question they were really asking instead of their smokescreen questions.

[Guest]

I disagree that Thea and Laurel can't have a relationship or that Thea would think it was weird. I know it's not been shown to everyone's tastes this season, but they still had scenes together which showed there's a history there that won't really go away, even if Oliver is in love with someone else. But IMO, there was no time for it to be explored in depth this season.

 

While Thea and Felicity finally had some scenes together (only took like three years but whatever), Laurel was training and spending time with Nyssa. You can't want Laurel to continue training and have her with Thea all at the same time. Something has to give and considering it was beyond time to give Thea and Felicity some connection, that's what happened. Not to mention I think Thea might still feel uncomfortable about things with Laurel considering she did kill her sister, even if the intent wasn't there. It still happened. That has to have some effect on things. But I don't ever envisage Laurel's relationship with Thea (or Oliver) being forgotten completely. It's just this season there was A LOT going on. 

[BkWurm1]

don't lead with "Is everyone ok?" lead with "I know you're pissed and you can hit me later but right now if things start looking bad just know that I or Malcolm will get you out it"

 

This only works if he has control of the situation.  Oliver is not one make empty promises.  He needed help, called in his team and he got played by Ra's.   There was no If.  Things were looking bad and we do not know that he at that moment had a way to get them out alive.   Seems to me he was still winging it.  After all, why would he think Ra's would waste the virus he wanted to use on Starling City (that he had saved for that purpose) on a handful of prisoners that could have been easily dispatched by a sword. 

[tarotx]

I think Laurel and Thea's relationship was also because of Tommy. Which could have been put to use this season and I guess can still work. Laurel had a relationship with Tommy while he was dealing with the hell that Melcolm causes...

[nksarmi]

I can't explain how Oliver would anticipate that because I really can't figure out why Ra's didn't threaten someone with a sword other than the really had no way to write the characters out of that.

 

Someone in some thread said that it feels like they are writing backwards this year and it feels like that is true.  So they go for the scene they want, rather its TA passed out in the cell while Oliver is marrying Nyssa or the big combat scene on the beach and they just write to get the characters to that point.  It feels like proper characterization gets bypassed a lot while they do this.  And frankly, I have ALWAYS thought issues could be solved much faster on this show if Oliver just said the right thing at the right moment.  I swear, I have literally said to my TV "why didn't he just say x, y, and z" countless times during commercial breaks even in seasons one and two.

 

 

  After all, why would he think Ra's would waste the virus he wanted to use on Starling City (that he had saved for that purpose) on a handful of prisoners that could have been easily dispatched by a sword. 

[kismet]

When did Oliver shut Felicity out of Team Arrow planning sessions? If it's him working with Malcolm, the whole thing is dumb, but he shut everyone out of that.

Oliver wasn't going to lie to Felicity when she said "tell me you never loved me." So he told her the truth: he loves her. That's not the issue. The issue is that he doesn't think he can be with her, and I get that because I've lived it. Maybe not with a vigilante archer, but with a man who really believed being in a relationship with me would hurt me.

You see everything Oliver did as him being selfish, but I see it as him being honest. He doesn't ever try to hide how he feels about Felicity--and he kept letting her know despite the fact that until 2 episodes ago, she had never said "I love you" to him. You assume he is completely aware of how Felicity feels about him, and I've read so much fanfiction and created so many head canons that I have my own assumptions, but on the show, the canon is that she doesn't tell him until two episodes ago. The first time he kisses her, SHE is the one who walks away. She is the one who says "I won't wait with you" when he says he's going to die there. She is the one who ignores him when he says "You know how I feel about her." She is the one who stood in silence when he was leaving, possibly to die, after he said he loved her. Then he returns, and she tells him she doesn't want to be a woman he loved before finally moving on with someone else. I did not watch a season where Felicity is pining over Oliver. I watched one where Oliver is okay with loving Felicity from afar, and he's okay with never learning how she feels about him.

Thanks! Your analysis is sorta how I saw a lot of the season. We can all talk about o&f reasons or rationales. But you stated the facts and those are what they are regardless of the whys. Edited May 10, 2015 by kismet

[wingster55]

But IMO, there was no time for it to be explored in depth this season.

 

They should make time. 

[Guest]

They should make time.

They should have made time for a lot of things. My previous comment already covered that.

[wingster55]

They should have made time for a lot of things. My previous comment already covered that.

 

True enough. 

[TanyaKay]

These fans want the show to give them indications that Laurel's place in Oliver's life hasn't changed. That she is still the most important person. That Felicity is just a blip. And they're not going to get that because that is not the story.

I was thrilled Marc answered the question they were really asking instead of their smokescreen questions.

This sums it up perfectly. Those fans always reminisce about good old season one but the truth is that after 1x12, the show deliberately reduced Laurel and Oliver interaction even back in season 1, more so after Felicity was formally inducted in the team. There were episodes where they only interacted in flashbacks (1x14) or in just one scene (1x18) or not at all (1x16), so really, the thing they are genuinely missing is LL being Oliver's love interest. Too bad the show is not gonna go there, esp if Stephen Amell has any say in it. Edited May 10, 2015 by TanyaKay

[Genki]

I think ditching Carly as the LI for Diggle was another sign that Lauriver is over. I LOVE Lyla and AMA has much more chemistry with DR (IMO), but Carly wasn't horrible and they had AJ to parallel the Oliver's lovechild that is apparently out there.

 

Diggle and Lyla align to Oliver & Felicity better than the Brother swapping with Carly and making her his ex-wife meant that they could speed up towards Diggle with a family and married to a BAMF with them balanced in a partnership. They have always indicated Diggle was Oliver's road map or a version of Oliver past all the trauma so for me this was another sign of Producer's intent.

[kismet]

The sibling swapping does get to be a little much in this show. They can branch out a little more. Its not like its long running soap where basically everyone is related. This was a brand new show that willingly chose the sibling swap route. I hope they are done with exploring those angles. No offense, but thats one of the reasons I hope they keep Nyssa & laurel platonic. Give them other LI.

[lizonthefritz]

them not being together was in my mind almost a mutual decision. They verbalized it differently, but she was part of that decision as well.

 

I don't really see that. I mean, Oliver said no, what was Felicity supposed to do? Force him? I think she tried to keep the peace in order to be able to stay on Team Arrow (if TA wasn't a factor, I think she would have gone away for a long time to lick her wounds before she was able to face Oliver again, making all the times he refused to allow her the space to move on moot).

 

 

The first time he kisses her, SHE is the one who walks away. She is the one who says "I won't wait with you" when he says he's going to die there. She is the one who ignores him when he says "You know how I feel about her." She is the one who stood in silence when he was leaving, possibly to die, after he said he loved her. Then he returns, and she tells him she doesn't want to be a woman he loved before finally moving on with someone else. I did not watch a season where Felicity is pining over Oliver. I watched one where Oliver is okay with loving Felicity from afar, and he's okay with never learning how she feels about him. 

 

I agree, I didn't watch a season of Felicity pining over Oliver, I watched a season of Felicity doing everything to get over him and him not allowing her to. The only way for her to escape the torture of hearing him declare his love with one breath and reaffirming that they can't be together with the next would have been to leave Team Arrow. And I think that's a pretty assholeish thing to do to someone you love - take from them a mission that they're committed to just because you feel that a declaration of your feelings is more important than their emotional well-being.

 

Of course, that's if I'm thinking of it from a real world perspective. On the show? I still kind of love that Oliver loves her so much that he can't help but tell her so at every turn. *shrug*

[Ang]

It is my hope/expectation that by the end of the season we will see Felicity finally get to the purely good stuff that comes with a loving relationship...at least for a while. 

 

I just bet we will! Right up until the opening credits for 4x01. Ha.

 

[....]

 

Ignoring the fact that he really could have avoided all the conflicts with the LoA this season if he had just chopped off Merlyn's head and handed it to Nyssa on a platter.  [....]

 

But I feel like the writers are doing this plot for the greatest possible manpain for Oliver and angst for Team Arrow and it just feels like enough is enough already.  Just stop.  Someone needs to smack these writers across the face and say, people can endure 2 hours of a depressing movie and swear they will never watch it again - you can't keep people coming back for 23 hours of television if you don't mix it up a bit.  Crap, I got so sick of Daredevil getting the snot beat out of him for 12 episodes that I'm not 100% sure how I feel about a season two of that show and that was only half the run of Arrow.

1) Must we? It's such a relevant fact. Do we think the show is presenting it as a mistake on Oliver's part, or are we really supposed to believe that it would have gone even more poorly for Thea if he'd taken out Malcolm when he should have? I liked and agreed with the points you made, though.

 

2) THIS. Maybe I'm just an old lady now and kids these days dig the depressing stuff, but...I LIKE fun shows! I like hints of optimism, and winning against the odds, and plucky heroes on a hero's journey. And I think that even "dark, gritty, realistic," Nolan-wannabe shows benefit from having veins of these things running through them. 

 

I'm fighting the urge to speculate and discuss relationships in the context of spoilers (although I'm avoiding most spoilers for the finale) but I will say that they've definitely got a lot of interesting relationship dynamics to explore next season, if they're up for it. With Oliver and Felicity-as-love-interest, I'm curious to see if we'll see long-term effects of the trust roller coaster, or if Felicity will Mary Sue-it up and fill the "always believed in the hero" role.

[BkWurm1]

I think ditching Carly as the LI for Diggle was another sign that Lauriver is over. I LOVE Lyla and AMA has much more chemistry with DR (IMO), but Carly wasn't horrible and they had AJ to parallel the Oliver's lovechild that is apparently out there.

 

Diggle and Lyla align to Oliver & Felicity better than the Brother swapping with Carly and making her his ex-wife meant that they could speed up towards Diggle with a family and married to a BAMF with them balanced in a partnership. They have always indicated Diggle was Oliver's road map or a version of Oliver past all the trauma so for me this was another sign of Producer's intent.

 

You know, I'd always wondered why they dropped Carly. I dismissed it as they needed to downsize a set (Goodbye Big Belly Burger) but they could have very easily moved her to Verdant or Queen Consolidated had they wanted.  I think your observation about the parallels between Oliver and Diggle's relationships are spot on.  Love the insight!

I don't really see that. I mean, Oliver said no, what was Felicity supposed to do? Force him? I think she tried to keep the peace in order to be able to stay on Team Arrow (if TA wasn't a factor, I think she would have gone away for a long time to lick her wounds before she was able to face Oliver again, making all the times he refused to allow her the space to move on moot).

 

 

 

I agree, I didn't watch a season of Felicity pining over Oliver, I watched a season of Felicity doing everything to get over him and him not allowing her to. The only way for her to escape the torture of hearing him declare his love with one breath and reaffirming that they can't be together with the next would have been to leave Team Arrow. And I think that's a pretty assholeish thing to do to someone you love - take from them a mission that they're committed to just because you feel that a declaration of your feelings is more important than their emotional well-being.

 

Of course, that's if I'm thinking of it from a real world perspective. On the show? I still kind of love that Oliver loves her so much that he can't help but tell her so at every turn. *shrug*

Even from a real world perspective it's not so cut and dried.  Intention has a lot to do IMO with level of assholery.  He wasn't trying to yank her heart around but like you said, he loves her so much that sometimes he couldn't help it. 

 

 I think in the past I've heard Olive's "I love but can't be with you" compared to a married man with other responsibilities but  I don't think that works because he being with her isn't actually a betrayal of any kind. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't really see how Oliver's danger is vastly different from a dedicated cop in SC (because it's pretty much the crime capital of the world), or a Navy SEAL, or an SC mayor.  They all face death and danger every day and have to do the job, but it's fine for them to have families.  Oliver's just a big of a melodramatic martyr.

[statsgirl]

Oliver's identity crises hasn't made much sense this season other than as a plot contrivance.  He managed to be Oliver Queen with everyone but Felicity.

 

 

When did Oliver shut Felicity out of Team Arrow planning sessions? If it's him working with Malcolm, the whole thing is dumb, but he shut everyone out of that.

Oliver shut both Felicity and Diggle out of decision-making when he should have let them in.  They may have signed on to help save Starling City, but they didn't sign on to have the LoA against them because Oliver decided that they were going to keep Malcolm Merlyn from the punishment the League owed him. 

 

Diggle and Felicity both made the decision while Oliver was gone that they were going to refuse to work with Merlyn but when Oliver came back, boom! they were forced to either work with MM or quit the Team, and Oliver refused to listen to any arguments to the contrary.  For all Oliver calls Diggle and Felicity his partners, he doesn't treat them that way.

 

The pushing away of Felicity from the team was even more apparent when Diggle gave in and said he would go to Nanda Parbat with Oliver, not because he believed that Oliver was doing the right thing but because the idea that he had failed to protect Oliver hurt so much when they thought Oliver was dead that he was willing to do whatever Oliver wanted to protect him.  In that episode, Diggle twice told Felicity to leave along with Laurel and Roy so that Diggle and Oliver could talk alone..  Diggle had regained some importance to Oliver because he gave in but Felicity was still being shut out.  This is a huge issue and why I think Olicity might be broken for me.

 

 

Oliver wasn't going to lie to Felicity when she said "tell me you never loved me." So he told her the truth: he loves her. That's not the issue. The issue is that he doesn't think he can be with her, and I get that because I've lived it. Maybe not with a vigilante archer, but with a man who really believed being in a relationship with me would hurt me.

 

I have a different issue -- that Oliver has decided on his own that he can't be with Felicity without talking to her about it, and yet he won't let her go. "Tell me you never loved me" means "let me go back to thinking this thing between us isn't real so I can find someone else".  That's what she needed to live her life in the sunshine rather than in the lair waiting for Oliver to die.  He wouldn't though, and whether it's called honesty or selfishness, the end result is that Felicity gets hurt again and again.. 

 

You see everything Oliver did as him being selfish, but I see it as him being honest. He doesn't ever try to hide how he feels about Felicity--and he kept letting her know despite the fact that until 2 episodes ago, she had never said "I love you" to him. You assume he is completely aware of how Felicity feels about him, and I've read so much fanfiction and created so many head canons that I have my own assumptions, but on the show, the canon is that she doesn't tell him until two episodes ago. The first time he kisses her, SHE is the one who walks away.

But Felicity isn't okay with Oliver loving her from afar.  She told him "Don't dangle maybes" and yet he keeps doing it, both indirectly ("And you know how I feel about her") and directly ("I love you").  When Carrie Cutler keeps telling Oliver she loves him, it's clear that's stalking. But Oliver continuing to tell Felicity he loves her when he asked him not to is on the same continuum.

 

Honesty is selfish when you know it's going to hurt the person you're being honest to.  Oliver has to be a complete idiot if he didn't know in The Calm that Felicity cared about him, even if she hadn't said she loves him.  She walked away from their first kiss because he had already said it was a good-bye kiss.  No discussion.  And that would have been okay if he hadn't kept telling her he loves her and hurting her with it each time because it was always accompanied by "but I refuse to be with you."  What she went through when she though he was dead was bad enough but when he returned and shut her out completely?  I don't know  how she managed to go back to the lair the next day.  And Oliver was aware of how she felt because he man 'slpained that the reason Felicity was so upset was because he still wouldn't be with her.

 

Roy leaving Thea I see as another example of this show writing the man making decisions for a woman he says he cares about.  Malcolm and Oliver have been doing it to Thea all season, Ray did it to Felicity when he kept secrets from her, and now Roy is unilaterally making the decision that Thea should not be on the run with him.

 

Even from a real world perspective it's not so cut and dried.  Intention has a lot to do IMO with level of assholery.  He wasn't trying to yank her heart around but like you said, he loves her so much that sometimes he couldn't help it.

I think that comes down to which side affects each of us more.  That's the perspective from Oliver's side, that he loves her so much he needs to keep telling her that he loves her. From Felicity's side, this is the man she loves so desperately that she will be happy if he's just in her life but he refuses to be with or even to talk about them being together and she's trying to move and have a good life without him. But he keeps pulling the strings so she's pulled back in.  This is Oliver Queen, the man who is so controlled that he can fool a lie detector, so controlled that he appears as The Hood to scare his own mother. I have a hard time believing that he couldn't stop dangling maybes if he really wanted to.

 

One of those decisions is the healthy one (as AK has said) and I don't think it's fair to Felicity that Oliver keeps doing things that prevent her from being able to do it.  It's not fair that she's trying to move on and he wouldn't let her.

[AyChihuahua]

"I don't know  how she managed to go back to the lair the next day."

 

If the show was at all realistic, she almost certainly would have quit after that.  Obviously that couldn't happen, because it's a show.

 

I'm really bummed that, IMO, Ray was such a colossal, creepy, no-chemistry fail.  Because I've read fics in which Felicity has relationships with Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, or Captain America, and I end up wanting her with them.  Because even Bruce Wayne is emotionally healthier than Oliver, BUT, those guys have some of the verve and hero-y stuff that Oliver used to have.  For me they just really failed with the writing and casting for Ray, and also really failed in making Felicity still Felicity around him. 

[statsgirl]

I think the reason Ray was a fail was because they tried too hard to make it work. And because they didn't really want it to work because they wanted Olicity to be the underlying relationship this season.  Writing with their hand tied behind their back.

 

I like Ray's scenes with Felicity when they're not trying to push the ship.

[tarotx]

They tried to force everyone and Fecility to work this season and alot of the scenes didn't feel exactly right. I think it's one of the reasons people are annoyed with Felicity and Olicity. Some think it was done to solidify that she was the love interest. Some of it was that as well as EBR's fan support. Either way, moving forward, the creative team needs to make every relationship on the show more organic.

[BkWurm1]

I think that comes down to which side affects each of us more.  That's the perspective from Oliver's side, that he loves her so much he needs to keep telling her that he loves her. From Felicity's side, this is the man she loves so desperately that she will be happy if he's just in her life but he refuses to be with or even to talk about them being together and she's trying to move and have a good life without him. But he keeps pulling the strings so she's pulled back in.  This is Oliver Queen, the man who is so controlled that he can fool a lie detector, so controlled that he appears as The Hood to scare his own mother. I have a hard time believing that he couldn't stop dangling maybes if he really wanted to.

 

 

Sure he could.  The problem is that he WANTS the maybes because he does want to be with Felicity but for inexplicable reasons he's got it in his head he's not allowed to be with her but even as he is pushing her away, he's still dreaming of a future when something changes.  

 

Felicity has said she won't put her life on hold and I agree that is for the best since it's not like enabling his irrationalities is going to lead to any quicker changes.  And that's important to remember too, while Felicity has asked him to stop dangling maybe's and that she's not going to wait around, she wants him to get past his issues and actually be with her.  And even when she thought she got to a point where she had put distance between them and she had moved on, she still clung to their relationship in the same way that Oliver had.

 

She flat out told Oliver that he was the reason why they weren't together and that she needed him in her life to be happy.   She's not putting any more distance between she and Oliver than he was which is why I can't get too upset about Oliver keeping on dangling his maybes.  They both want the same thing and it would be great If they ever sat down and talked out his issues but that's not the show we're getting. 

 

 

One of those decisions is the healthy one (as AK has said) and I don't think it's fair to Felicity that Oliver keeps doing things that prevent her from being able to do it.  It's not fair that she's trying to move on and he wouldn't let her.

 

By the time she was with Palmer, I think it was she that wouldn't let her move on.  She's the one that again reached out to him and when he actually started talking to her, then she felt it safe to be close to him again, something she wants (as does he).  She tried to split her relationships one romantic with Ray and one just friendship with Oliver but her heart got in the way and no matter what she did, she couldn't stop loving Oliver any more than Oliver could stop loving her.

 

It could be argued that she was the one that wouldn't allow Oliver to put a distance between them after she started dating Ray.  We saw that it hurt Oliver and if she hadn't taken steps to regain their closeness, it might have been easier for Oliver to do what was needed to let her go ...but in the end that's not what either of them wanted ....which is why I can't get too mad at Oliver or Felicity.

It really does depend on how they get Oliver/Felicity together, but right now i just don't buy it because Oliver (again imo) has done nothing to show or prove that he's changed from the premiere.

 

He is going to have to prove to me that next season he's in this relationship for good (assuming we end on a happy note) because I will not be able to take it if he pulls this same crap next season when he inevitably puts the hood back on.  I have a lot of hope though because there is a big difference in thinking you have to sacrifice something and having everything important stripped from you in life. Priorities get reevaluated and right now I'm optimistic that Oliver has figured out that the very thing that he fears as a distraction is what he needs in order to be a force for good in his city.  He's done PURE ARROW with Ra's and I don't see Oliver willing ever to go back to that.  That means to me that he will have gotten his head out of his ass for good...at least about this one subject. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Lady Calypso]

Roy leaving Thea I see as another example of this show writing the man making decisions for a woman he says he cares about.  Malcolm and Oliver have been doing it to Thea all season, Ray did it to Felicity when he kept secrets from her, and now Roy is unilaterally making the decision that Thea should not be on the run with him.

 

 

I wanted to address this part more so because for me, I don't see anything wrong in this. I think that in this case, Roy is right in leaving Thea to run on his own. The thing about Roy/Thea is that he always knows exactly when something is wrong. He's so intuitive with Thea that I can see and understand why he made this choice to leave her. He knows she is running away from something and that unlike him, she can go back and fix it. He may not know the entire context (and that is Thea leaving out the fine detail about her dying and being resurrected; that is a choice she made in not telling him to perhaps protect him) but he gets her, and that is a rare thing for a young couple. It's what makes me love them and realize they are the healthiest couple on the show, and look at where they're at right now! He left her because he knew it wasn't the right thing to do for Thea. I am absolutely positive he would like nothing more than to have her with him as he ran. They're deeply in love and I can see them getting married down the line, when this is all over.

 

However, he also knows he has to let her go back and figure out her own life. Now, the other males making choices for females is nothing new. This show has also demonstrated the reversal, especially when it has come to Oliver this season (and with legitimate good reasons, as Oliver makes the worst choices most of the time). But the difference is that Roy was thinking about Thea; in fact, he was being pretty selfless. If he was being selfish, he would have let her run with him because that is what would have made him happy. He does care about Thea, more than anyone would ever know. He's the one who has consistently wanted to tell Thea about Oliver but it was never his secret to tell. He has almost always been honest with Thea and has never tried to intentionally hurt her or hide things from her. I probably could go into a whole rant about why these two are my favourite couple on this show, even more so than Oliver and Felicity at times, but I'll leave that for another time.

 

The point for me is that Roy made this choice because he loves Thea so much and because he wants the best for her. He knows her coming with him isn't the best for her, and he knows something has happened with her and he knows her staying in Starling, especially to help fight, is going to be better for her in the long run. It's because he knows her, and she knows him, that there is trust and respect built between them. They got to share an actual goodbye at least, and Roy knows he will see Thea again. But for now, the best thing for Thea is not coming with him and he made his own choice to leave her and let her deal with her own stuff on her own. It couldn't have been an easy decision for him, because I know Roy would want to be there to help her. But he can't, and she can't come with him to figure this out. And he knows that. So Roy/Thea does not bother me in this sense, because of these other contributing factors that make it less black and white.

 

One of those decisions is the healthy one (as AK has said) and I don't think it's fair to Felicity that Oliver keeps doing things that prevent her from being able to do it.  It's not fair that she's trying to move on and he wouldn't let her.

 

 

You make some interesting points, and some of them I do agree with. But I don't think it's as simple as him not letting her move on, or him wanting to hurt Felicity and emotionally abuse her over and over. Oliver's interests or goals have never been to harm Felicity. In fact, the one thing he has consistently said is that he wants her to be happy. Oliver's a damaged individual, I think we can all agree on that. He has deep seeded emotional and mental issues that he hasn't worked through, so I think that he needs to heal himself before he can be in a committed and healthy relationship with Felicity. Yes, she deserves someone who is more stable and someone who would be committed to her. But I think it's difficult because she is in love with Oliver, flaws and all, as is Oliver with Felicity. 

 

Oliver clearly wants to be with Felicity, and she does with him. The thing is, Oliver sees things a lot differently than Felicity does when it comes to love. Felicity's more stable, so she sees things as a little more grey scaled. She doesn't want the maybes because she knows how complex that can get. She wants to be with Oliver, and she can only partially understand why he's pushing her away. Of course she deserves a more decisive guy who will be with her, risks and all. But Oliver? He sees things in a more blurred context. He's the guy who has seen death and destruction everywhere for years. Starting with his father's death to save him, it has broken him bit by bit, turning him into a completely different man, one who wants to save and protect the people he cares about but every time he tries, something bad happens. Whether it's Tommy, his mother, Sara or even Thea, he has seen his happiness be destroyed through the harm of his loved ones. Every time he tries to go for true happiness, something happens. 

 

He tries to protect the people he loves, but yes, I agree that it only pushes them away farther. But, from how I see things, it's because Oliver may not truly believe he deserves an ounce of happiness. Again, he's damaged and that is not his fault. He does not mean to hurt Felicity every time he pushes and pulls her back in. He wants to be her friend, but with every passing day and every little moment they share, he can't help but savour those moments of happiness because he thinks that's all he's going to get. He shares a different relationship with Diggle, but even he hasn't shared a lot of his issues. I don't think he wants to burden them, but he needs to burden somebody with them. But although he puts more trust in Diggle regarding his past, he still only shares the bare minimum, and he's finally began sharing more to Felicity herself, which goes to show he's starting to really trust her too...or he feels more comfortable with telling her his deepest darkest secrets. It's unhealthy, but he does this with everybody. So I don't think it's a matter of him withholding from Felicity, because he's done it with everybody. But it's nice to see him put some trust in somebody like Diggle.

 

Oliver Queen is an idiot, I can say that with confidence. He doesn't make the smartest moves, he can be emotional and spontaneous at times. But he does have one of the biggest hearts on this show. He may go about it in the wrong ways, but he isn't a bad guy. He's just someone who needs help and yes, I think that Felicity can only be with Oliver when he starts getting this help. But I also think that him being with her, and realizing that the world isn't ending, will help him on the road to recovery. I don't think Olicity is broken, just damaged. Just like Oliver, it's not permanently damaged and it can absolutely be fixed but it'll take a lot on Oliver's end to do so. But Felicity trusts him because she knows, deep down, that Oliver is a good guy and he's only doing this because of his traumas and that is why she still supports him and trusts him. Of course he doesn't get that Felicity is being hurt by Oliver pushing and pulling, because he doesn't think like her. I do think Oliver means well and he is a good guy who is not meaning to hurt Felicity. 

 

To be honest, he's definitely taken two steps back from last season, when he was more on equal levels with Diggle and Felicity. This season has just been a mess for Team Arrow because last season, he wouldn't have withheld so much. He was more trusting of them last season, which is why it's disappointing. 

[ostentatious]

I've always been of the opinion that Oliver trusts the Arrow with Felicity, but he doesn't trust Oliver Queen with Felicity. It's Oliver whose decisions have led to a whole lot of pain and destruction for the women in his life. It's Oliver who has never been in a successful relationship before. The Arrow hasn't failed at that because he hasn't tried to have any. Oliver is the one who could break her heart.

This is how I've reconciled his nonsense since 206. I mean, if dude is afraid of her being hurt, then he needs to disband Team Arrow. But from the moment she joined...Diggle questions it, and Oliver says "We can protect her." He isn't pushing her away to keep her from being physically hurt, he's pushing her away to keep her (and himself) from emotional hurt. This is his way of keeping her where he needs her - with him 18 hours a day minimum - without, he thinks, causing damage.

And Moira shooting him just accelerated his timetable. He was going to bring her in soon, regardless. Because if there is one thing rewatching season one shows you, it's that he cannot. stay. away. from that girl.

[Ceylon5]

I think that it's completely accidental on the parts of the writers, because the writing has, in every respect, been so breathtakingly awful this season that I find it hard to believe that anyone thought this through carefully, but they might have hit upon a very real truth which the Oliver/Felicity sweetness of earlier seasons might have somewhat obscured, and that is that Oliver, with all the damage he has sustained, is going to find a full-scale romantic relationship incredibly difficult to navigate successfully (and that's not even taking into account the fact that the pre-island Oliver was equally incapable, because that's not as relevant at this point).  We, as an audience, would undoubtedly have preferred the relationship to have the same easiness to it as their friendship had, because that's fun to watch, but changing the intimacy of a relationship vastly changes the stakes.  It's a change that tends to bring out the best and the worst in people, and to shine a light on problems that weren't as noticeable before.  So the moment Oliver's relationship with Felicity went from the relative safety of friendship to the intensity of a romance, he couldn't cope.  It was extremely tiresome to watch, and was undoubtedly written simply as a standard TV ship-stall, but there is an element of reality about it (foreign as such a concept is on this show) that I reluctantly recognise.

 

I think that because Felicity is in love with him, she's having to grapple with a very complex response within herself as a result of his incapacity.  On the one hand she can look at his decision not to be with her as a choice, and a really, really dumb, nonsensical, hurtful one at that.  On the other hand, she can consider everything Oliver has experienced up to this point and realise that he has some very real emotional limitations.  He's damaged, possibly even broken, and the last few years have done nothing to improve the situation.  Felicity, I think, understands that enough for it to temper her own hurt and frustration to a degree.  She fell in love and understandably wanted the fairy-tale 'happily ever after', but came face to face with the realities of PTSD instead.  She's trying to figure out a way to cope with this broken man she loves without letting his brokenness consume them both, and she's not really sure how to go about it, especially when he holds her at arm's length and keeps making increasingly terrible and dangerous decisions.  They're both in a predicament, because they want each other, even need each other, but have some very real emotional obstacles they have to work around to be together.

 

The first obstacle is just for Oliver to be able to commit to a relationship with Felicity without freaking out and bailing.  But even once he's done that, I think he's going to find it very scary being in a proper relationship with someone he's really in love with and with whom he wants to make it work in the long term.  Oliver's spent the last 8 years unable to plan for the future, just trying to survive in the present.  He hasn't allowed himself to think of a future for himself because, as he said after Sara died, he doesn't think he has a future.  Being with Felicity is an act of optimism.  It says that he can have happiness, he can plan a future, he wants to have a life, rather than just an existence.  He's choosing sunlight over the basement at night.  That's a huge thing, a fundamental shift in his whole mindset, and might not be as easy or simple as it sounds.  Oliver has a massive, realistic fear of the people he loves dying (usually in a horrible, violent way in front of him).  It's going to be really difficult for him to function in a romantic relationship without that fear becoming problematic for both of them.  He's also going to need to learn to do regular people stuff - watch TV, read books, hang out and talk nonsense, even (gasp!) get a job - and to not take responsibility for lots of things that aren't his concern in an attempt to assuage his guilt over the things he's done.  In other words, he going to have to learn to let go and chill.  Felicity's going to need to be really patient with him, I think.  I hope she suggests (strongly) that he gets some therapy.  Or, at the very least, talks to her about the things that have happened to him.

 

However, I think this is putting more thought into the matter than it deserves.  These writers seem largely uninterested in their characters, treating them as incidental to the plot.  And given that the plot, if it can even be called that, is nonsensical and annoying, this has proven to be an extremely poor decision.  At this stage, I think this show is running solely on the charms of its actors, because it has little else to recommend it.

[kismet]

We were talking about OQ leading with his head v. his heart in the OQ thread, as well as "equal" partnerships. I've always seen partnerships as more of a see-saw where there is a constant shifting & balancing out of responsibility. In my opinion it is always fluctuating depending on circumstances and situations. Both partners are equal, but how they balance the responsibilities varies on some many other intrinsic & extrinsic factors. I think OQ sees Dig & FS as equal partners, but that does not mean that everything will be 50/50 split all the time.

 

I think its always a balancing act for him, just like it is for most of us. There are very few times IRL that I think a relationship is always 50/50 for all decisions & responsibilities. There are going to be times where situations demand responsibility fall more on one party (even if its only 60/40, however because this is Arrow the numbers are generally not that close). But because of the equal partnership, eventually it will hopefully balance out again. Generally, I think this is where Trust plays a role in relationships. If you are partners with someone, you learn that you must trust that they will make up the difference when there is an imbalance. Trust is one of the intrinsic elements that balances the see-saw out to counterbalance the extrinsic factors impacting the decisions/choices.

 

Its one the reasons, I think it will be easier for FS to forgive him, because in the show (esp s2 finale) their trust and partnership has been tested more so than OQ/Dig. So experience has shown them that they can trust each other, that their partnership can sustain it because of how strong it & their love for each other is. He risked her life with Slade & she trusted that it would work out. OQ kidnapping Lyla was really the first time I can think OQ really forced Dig into a trust situation. Yes in the field, they trust each other constantly ~ but OQ has never had to really had to do anything that willingly placed Dig in a possibly compromising Trust situation. He's never been forced to rely on their trust & partnership to counterbalance some of the decisions he had to make. So in OQ mind's I wonder if he saw the Lyla situation as another Slade situation. He assumed that his partnership/love with Dig would be strong enough to overcome the risks of kidnapping Lyla. He trusted that Dig would understand the risk/benefit analysis just as FS had in s2. Clearly, it turned out differently from Dig's perspective.

 

Eventually, Dig will likely forgive OQ because of their deep partnership/love, but its gonna take time which I think is reasonable & realistic. They are brothers, but they very different types of people & with different personalities that will not always see eye to eye on many issues. For as different people FS & OQ appear on the surface, I actually think deep down they are more alike than they seem, especially in core elements that are fundamental to relationships. They appear to have different personalities, but in the end their similarities bridge any gaps easier because they are more alike than they are different on the stuff that matters.

Edited May 12, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

I think it's easier to forgive someone for hurting you than it is to forgive someone for hurting someone you love. Particularly your spouse, and sort of your child too. Risking your child, at least. So I do think that Felicity will forgive more easily. It makes sense that Dig would take much, much longer.

I wish I could marry Ceylon5's entire post. We've talked about Oliver's self-imposed celibacy (no half measures with this boy) but I don't think that's how he thought of it. I think if he examined it, he'd think of himself not as celibate, but as faithful and monogamous in a relationship without sex. He really has been in a relationship with her all year.

I wonder, though...if we end this season with the two of them together, when exactly did Oliver decide he could do this? Was it only in 320, when she said ILU? Or was it seeing her with Ray and processing the idea of being a partner to her in all ways as a possible thing that one could actually accomplish in this world? Was it "dying," if Felicity hadn't come out with that "I don't want to be a woman you love" thing, what was he about to say it her about them being together? Was he about to put her off again, or was he about to tell her he'd had an epiphany?

Or maybe a cascade of all these things? Idk.

Edited May 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[Genki]

I wonder, though...if we end this season with the two of them together, when exactly did Oliver decide he could do this? Was it only in 320, when she said ILU? Or was it seeing her with Ray and processing the idea of being a partner to her in all ways as a possible thing that one could actually accomplish in this world? Was it "dying," if Felicity hadn't come out with that "I don't want to be a woman you love" thing, what was he about to say it her about them being together? Was he about to put her off again, or was he about to tell her he'd had an epiphany?

Or maybe a cascade of all these things? Idk.

 

I think it was Ra's stripping him of everything. Slade just wanted Oliver to suffer, Ra's wanted Oliver/The Arrow/People he loves/values gone. When Oliver can choose again for himself what he wants, I think it will be Felicity and I hope it will also be Oliver Queen.

 

ETA: Actually I think the turning point came after THE SEX. 

 

I think Oliver heard everything Felicity said but I don't think he believed it possible for himself, until he was finally with Felicity. He was actually hopeful for once. Also I think there is a difference between knowing you want something intellectually but denying yourself vs. finally experiencing it and cutting yourself off again.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Genki

[Chaser]

I feel like the extra 2 and half minutes in the final needs to be Oliver summarizing his choices and emotional turning points. 

[ostentatious]

I never want to ask Stephen (or any show people) anything but I really want him to explain to me:

 

1. When Oliver fell in love.

2. When Oliver knew he was in love.

3. When Oliver made the choice to be with her. 

 

Because 1 & 2 just make me happy and there are so many choices, but 3 confuses me. It really feels like he's ready to be with her because it's the end of the season. =(

[Carrie Ann]

It really feels like he's ready to be with her because it's the end of the season. =(

 

My feeling has been that Oliver realized he could have been with her all along somewhere around...oh say...316, when he saw her with Ray.* It wasn't when he returned in 312 (although he did seem to have those kinds of feelings while he was recovering, until Tatsu convinced him he would need to sacrifice everything precious to him in order to beat Ra's). And O/F were pretty cold to each other from that point until after she got with Ray. 316 is when he pouts to Dig about Felicity moving on and how he's going to die alone and Ra's was right about everything!!! 

 

I think the gravity of the Ra's situation kind of put things into perspective, and I don't know if the realization was immediate or gradual, but I basically feel like if Felicity had broken up with Palmer at any point from 316 on and approached Oliver, he wouldn't have been able to fight it anymore. He probably would have tried some "I can't do this to you because of Ra's" ish, but then would have been happy when she shut that down. I mean, his face when she almost says "the man that I love" in 319...that's not the face of a man who was going to keep pushing her away.

 

So I think by the time he came to this realization, it was no longer his choice to make. The ball was no longer in his court. And in the finale, I think/hope that Oliver is still going to feel like it's Felicity's choice, because of the damage he's done since 321.

 

(*We'll never know what he was going to say to her when he came to the office in 307, but it seems impossible that he was going to ask her to be with him then, based on everything that came after. (That scene makes me eyeroll for just that reason--because it's not logical that he really had anything new to say to her, so the only purpose was to make Oliver feel more pain.))

Edited May 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[blixie]

 

I don't really see how Oliver's danger is vastly different from a dedicated cop in SC (because it's pretty much the crime capital of the world), or a Navy SEAL, or an SC mayor.

 

Hmm I think he has more in common with the Mayor than a cop or a Navy SEAL, who aren't likely to be individually targeted and represent an entire institutional group, the Mayor is in danger because he's a political and public figure, but ideally he's not antagonizing specific criminals, where as The Arrow is public figure AND an antagonist of criminals. But at base, my issue with Oliver's bla blah blah I martyr bullshit is that, Felicity is his PARTNER, as are Diggle, and now SIGH Laurel/BC, respect their fucking autonomy, they accept the risks, they accept the challenges, you don't get to decide where. when. why, or how they Hero.

 

 

She's not putting any more distance between she and Oliver than he was which is why I can't get too upset about Oliver keeping on dangling his maybes.

 

This continues to be a huge piece of why this entire season's Olicity arc was so jacked for me.  In the Calm, the lack of relationship is laid at the feet of being 'distracted' by feelings for Felicty, but he's still working with her, and still loving her, and constantly unburdening his feels to her. Now God knows I didn't want to see TA apart, but if you gonna go there FFS GO THERE, there should have been actual physical distance between them, and it's why I'll always wish that Ray had been used differently, that they were investigating each other, which necessarily meant Felicity would be out of the lair, and away from Oliver, and would have reason to cozy up to Ray That would have given them time apart without her actually abandoning the team/mission. 

 

And as much as I've slammed Oliver for regressing in terms of understanding he functions best with a team, family, and friends, but I do think there was a way to address how intra-team romance might create problems both in the field AND in the relationship, and not have it be enraging and stupid. For some reason it may seem semantic line, but I think Oliver (and honestly Felicity too) saying something like "I don't know HOW this will work, or if I can do this without fucking up both the mission and my relationship with you" seems hugely different to me than him unilaterally saying/deciding , this is impossible, this is hopeless, it can NOT be done!!! Because I'm horrible person who horribles.

 

It's also why I wanted Felicity to be the instigator of the breakup based on those exact reasons, because SHE was worried how a romantic relationship might compromise the team's effectiveness. That way I'd have had to deal with fuck ton less crying from Felicity, she could have been chirping and chipping away at project Ray/The ATOM, and he could be dealing with Ras/Malcolm/Sara, they both could have realized what they were pushing away for good reasons, but not good ENOUGH reasons.

 

But y'know that story would have ascribed Felicity some agency in the relationship instead of using her as emotional strangled ping pong ball between Ray and Oliver.

 

 

I've always been of the opinion that Oliver trusts the Arrow with Felicity, but he doesn't trust Oliver Queen with Felicity.

 

I think that's what Stephen sells absolutely, but the canonical narrative?  No, S2 in particular continually hit the self sacrificing martyr beat, and I never felt he was making some identity cleave there: both Oliver and The Arrow were not meant for love, both Oliver and The Arrow sacrifice love for The Mission. That never seemed about Oliver v. The Arrow, not to me. It's not like it was just Felicity who was sacrificed for that, his relationships with Moira and Thea were too. And how many times has Diggle had to pimpslap this fool for this behavior with him too? Dear MG, we are all *very* OVER IT, and have been for years. STAHP.

 

 

It really feels like he's ready to be with her because it's the end of the season. =(

 

Sorry, pretty sure that is exactly it. It was time for him to embrace "Oliver Queen" and stop being that dick, The Arrow.

[tv echo]

I think it was when Oliver was stabbed, falling off the cliff, and his dying thought was of those he loved, including Felicity, that he realized he was wrong to have rejected a relationship with Felicity.  But then Tatsu told him he would have to give up what he most treasured in order to defeat Ra's.  So while his giving up a relationship with Felicity was voluntary in 3A, it was not his choice in 3B but necessitated by his need to beat Ra's, work with Malcolm, save Thea, etc.

Edited May 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

I've seen 316/317 as the start of Oliver realizing what a dumb fool he's been for keeping away from Felicity - because all his talk of ending up alone means he has hope that he doesn't. Ray was very much his mirror at this point. He had everything he wanted and he was out there trying to be a hero. That probably shook the foundations of Oliver's very shaky argument for keeping his distance. 

 

And I think the situation with Ra's stripping away everything he's held onto as reasons for not being with Felicity maybe put it into more perspective. For a moment in 319/320, he lost absolutely everything - only to realize that he still has the woman he loves and she loves him no matter what identity he wears.

 

Sure, I wish some (many) things had happened differently but it's still believable to me that he'll end up with Felicity by seasons' end.

[Pothunter]

Love every single word of this post, especially the part in bold. Good god, the possibilities of hijinks, and drama without tragic crying.

 

I was expecting growth for Felicity through her own story, but no such luck :( Even teh sex does not make up for the absolute mess this season has been.

 

It'll be over soon, so there's that.

 

Hmm I think he has more in common with the Mayor than a cop or a Navy SEAL, who aren't likely to be individually targeted and represent an entire institutional group, the Mayor is in danger because he's a political and public figure, but ideally he's not antagonizing specific criminals, where as The Arrow is public figure AND an antagonist of criminals. But at base, my issue with Oliver's bla blah blah I martyr bullshit is that, Felicity is his PARTNER, as are Diggle, and now SIGH Laurel/BC, respect their fucking autonomy, they accept the risks, they accept the challenges, you don't get to decide where. when. why, or how they Hero.

 

 

This continues to be a huge piece of why this entire season's Olicity arc was so jacked for me.  In the Calm, the lack of relationship is laid at the feet of being 'distracted' by feelings for Felicty, but he's still working with her, and still loving her, and constantly unburdening his feels to her. Now God knows I didn't want to see TA apart, but if you gonna go there FFS GO THERE, there should have been actual physical distance between them, and it's why I'll always wish that Ray had been used differently, that they were investigating each other, which necessarily meant Felicity would be out of the lair, and away from Oliver, and would have reason to cozy up to Ray That would have given them time apart without her actually abandoning the team/mission. 

 

And as much as I've slammed Oliver for regressing in terms of understanding he functions best with a team, family, and friends, but I do think there was a way to address how intra-team romance might create problems both in the field AND in the relationship, and not have it be enraging and stupid. For some reason it may seem semantic line, but I think Oliver (and honestly Felicity too) saying something like "I don't know HOW this will work, or if I can do this without fucking up both the mission and my relationship with you" seems hugely different to me than him unilaterally saying/deciding , this is impossible, this is hopeless, it can NOT be done!!! Because I'm horrible person who horribles.

 

It's also why I wanted Felicity to be the instigator of the breakup based on those exact reasons, because SHE was worried how a romantic relationship might compromise the team's effectiveness. That way I'd have had to deal with fuck ton less crying from Felicity, she could have been chirping and chipping away at project Ray/The ATOM, and he could be dealing with Ras/Malcolm/Sara, they both could have realized what they were pushing away for good reasons, but not good ENOUGH reasons.

 

But y'know that story would have ascribed Felicity some agency in the relationship instead of using her as emotional strangled ping pong ball between Ray and Oliver.

 

 

I think that's what Stephen sells absolutely, but the canonical narrative?  No, S2 in particular continually hit the self sacrificing martyr beat, and I never felt he was making some identity cleave there: both Oliver and The Arrow were not meant for love, both Oliver and The Arrow sacrifice love for The Mission. That never seemed about Oliver v. The Arrow, not to me. It's not like it was just Felicity who was sacrificed for that, his relationships with Moira and Thea were too. And how many times has Diggle had to pimpslap this fool for this behavior with him too? Dear MG, we are all *very* OVER IT, and have been for years. STAHP.

 

 

Sorry, pretty sure that is exactly it. It was time for him to embrace "Oliver Queen" and stop being that dick, The Arrow.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think it's easier to forgive someone for hurting you than it is to forgive someone for hurting someone you love. Particularly your spouse, and sort of your child too. Risking your child, at least. So I do think that Felicity will forgive more easily. It makes sense that Dig would take much, much longer.

I wish I could marry Ceylon5's entire post. We've talked about Oliver's self-imposed celibacy (no half measures with this boy) but I don't think that's how he thought of it. I think if he examined it, he'd think of himself not as celibate, but as faithful and monogamous in a relationship without sex. He really has been in a relationship with her all year.

I wonder, though...if we end this season with the two of them together, when exactly did Oliver decide he could do this? Was it only in 320, when she said ILU? Or was it seeing her with Ray and processing the idea of being a partner to her in all ways as a possible thing that one could actually accomplish in this world? Was it "dying," if Felicity hadn't come out with that "I don't want to be a woman you love" thing, what was he about to say it her about them being together? Was he about to put her off again, or was he about to tell her he'd had an epiphany?

Or maybe a cascade of all these things? Idk.

 

I was thinking about these questions after reading one of Robert Dougherty's opinion pieces about Olicity. I really think almost dying was the start of Oliver changing his mind about a relationship with Felicity. She was his last thought before dying, then he dreams about their last moment together. That dream was quite telling because in that dream he decides to stay and be with Felicity, his subconscious showing he regrets leaving her. But then he returns to the land of the living and the first thing he does is team up with Malcolm, a decision that absolutely doesn't sit well with Felicity, leading to the "woman that you love line" and her walking away.

 

I saw more of this change in Oliver in "The Offer." When Ra's tells him he is destined to be alone, that he is on love with a woman that he cannot have, Oliver responds quite forcefully with "You do not know me." Why challenge Ra's statement when it's pretty much the same thing he'd been telling himself for months? Unless something HAD changed. I don't know that it's a full-blown "I can have a relationship with Felicity" as much as it was "Not being with her hurts a lot more." Of course, he comes back and finds Felicity had moved on. Again, his arguments to Dig about why he's actually considering taking on Ra's mantle are telling. There was his falling out with Quentin, which he equates with losing his city. And then there's Felicity. Again, why should it matter that Felicity is involved with somebody else? Unless Oliver is actually thinking of being with her.

 

I think seeing Felicity with Ray also made Oliver re-examine his whole "I just want you to be happy" schtick. I believe Oliver does want Felicity to be happy, but man, it must hurt quite a bit seeing her all smiles with another man. And yes, that fight where Felicity tells him she deserves to be with someone who isn't happy is a major turning point. When Felicity tells him about Ray wanting Felicity to be a true partner in work and life, you could actually see Oliver's frustration because that's exactly what he wants with Felicity (I'm in the minority here, I know, but I loved that fight between them; it's the first actual fight about their relationship).

 

This season has been so uneven, but I think a rewatch will help make things make more sense. I definitely felt that when I got the chance to see the post-return episodes. I saw things I didn't quite pick up on watching it week to week. I think the development of Olicity, particularly Oliver's growth will be more evident when everything is in.

[WaitandHope]

For what it's worth, I think Oliver was at war with himself most of the season - head vs. heart, but still keeping her at arms length and not letting her "in" for *reasons*.  He slipped up a few times and almost gave in to his feelings (god, he's such a dummy). 

 

I think he decided to start letting her in at the end of 3.19 - "I need to learn to let people help me."  (I wonder what he would have done about it - if not for Thea's near-death?)  And then as tragic and dire as the circumstances were in 3.20, I think Oliver decided to let her in and emotionally open up to her on the plane in 3.20.  This is SA's favorite scene and he is an Olicity shipper, after all.

 

I just don't think he could tell her that yet because he still had to execute his bone-headed plan.  We will see what he does tomorrow night, I suppose.  But SA has said 3.20 is the episode where Oliver starts doing things "differently."  Almost like Felicity had fantasized about when he was gone after 3.9...  Of course, he then reverts in 3.21 and 3.22 to shutting-people-out Oliver (I got nothing for where this stupidity fits in), BUT I think 3.20 is when he decides to be with her and is with her - it's just short-lived.  

 

And of course, in the love scene that I have watched repeated for science, he never hesitates...