Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[catrox14]

 

he Felicity/Oliver relationship is about due for the "Felicity is or appears to be badly hurt as opposed to just picking up a bullet scar like it's a tattoo, allowing Oliver to realize the depths of his feelings for her" beat, true.  If that happens, I'll be interested in seeing the contrast (if any) to the moment when Oliver found out that Laurel was in the hospital (poisoning) and visited her there - concerned, definitely, and he headed right over, but not necessarily desperate or broken.

 

That did play out already in "State v Queen" (which IMO is a vastly underrated episode, it's my 3rd favorite of the season. Funny thing that two of my favorite episodes have Moira front and center. /cries).  He left his mother's trial to save Felicity. Call comes in and BOOM. Gone. No question, no hesitation. When the Count was busy threatening her to inject her with Vertigo, Felicity is pleading with Oliver not to kill again, even for her("Quiet please, I'm threatening". what a great line!) The second the Count made the move to inject her, BOOM, three arrows into the Count's chest. No questions. No hesitation. After it was over Felicity was apologizing for making him have to make the choice to kill again, Oliver told her "Felicity, he was going to kill you. There was no choice to make".(with the little hand squeeze just like in the scene of the New Lair)  IMO if Felicity is kidnapped or injured so badly that she is on the verge of death, Oliver will be there in a flash (no pun intended) barring his own captivity. 

 

IMO, Oliver loves Felicity like no one else and I don't mean that in a shippy way.  I think Diggle and Felicity are Oliver's "persons" for lack of a better word.  They just get him. They understand him, he understands them. He's honest and can be the wound up unrelenting hero or the confused not sure what the hell to do now Arrow. He even gets to be a little goofy around Felicity and Diggle. It's a beautiful triad and those are the people that KNOW  Oliver Queen, the Arrow.  Not even Moira who knew he was the Arrow really understood him like Felicity and Diggle.  And in that moment in Seeing Red, I think Oliver at last, felt like the world was off his shoulders because his mother knew and was proud of him.  I think her loss is the one that will compel him to the most action once he gets over grieving her and blaming himself for her death. 

 

I almost think that Laurel's speech to Oliver was what Moira would have said to him and it would have made sense coming out of Moira's mouth as a mother.  She can say she knows him in his bones, and she knows him like she knows her own name, because it's her flesh and blood.  She knew he had a child out there and she was going to protect him in her own way.  She might not have known everything about his time on the island but she knew her douchey son, she knew him as a kid being whatever way he was as a kid and as a stupid douchebro getting someone pregnant. And now she knew him as The Arrow, not necessarily the actions but the man behind the actions.  Fuck, what a waste to kill Moira :(.

Edited May 6, 2014 by catrox14

[quarks]

State vs. Queen was the "Felicity's life is in danger" beat, not the "Felicity is badly wounded/dying or seems to be badly wounded/dying" beat - they're similar but slightly different. The first usually lets the hero know that he/she would do anything for the other person; the second usually lets the hero that he/she can't live without the other person.  Some superhero arcs do one, or the other; some do both, some do neither.

 

Laurel's had the first beat as well, but as others have pointed out, Oliver didn't break his no kill rule to rescue her, in contrast to Felicity.

 

I have to admit that I've been wondering ever since Blind Spot if some of the scenes we've gotten between Laurel/Oliver have been in reaction to a "Wait, Felicity got that!" reaction.  After all, Felicity got to swing around on ropes with Oliver three times before finally, in a Laurel-centric episode (Blind Spot), Laurel got to swing on a rope with him.  Felicity and Sara have both fled the scene/explosion clutching Oliver's hand; finally in this episode Laurel got to do that. Or maybe not.

[JenMD]

You can add Laurel got to hit a bad guy over the head to save Oliver like Felicity did in the S2 premiere. 

[quarks]

I forgot that one, but yes!  Especially since that one has gotten several gifs. 

[catrox14]

 

Felicity and Sara have both fled the scene/explosion clutching Oliver's hand; finally in this episode Laurel got to do that. Or maybe not.

 

Sara clutching Oliver's hand was so dumb.  Why would Sara do that? And why would Oliver even grab her hand? He doesn't need to escort her out of anywhere, unless she's wounded.

 

Holy crap. I just had a thought.  I was joking before about Laurel being slow-dosed with Mirakuru, but you know what....I'm thinking I might not be wrong.  Taking this to the speculation thread...

[Actionmage]

What I think would be cool in the new season, is if Team Arrow realize that they have to think a bit more about what they tell Sin, Roy, or Thea as what was said obviously gets to the other two. Teen Arrow (tm some brill TWoPer) work almost as well as Team Arrow (detecting-wise, I love the trio's chemistry.) Then we can start to have in actuality the titular City of Heroes that was touted for this season.  A true mentoring kind of relationship would be cool to see between Roy and Oliver. Roy wanted to earn Oliver's respect so so much, only to find the idol is human. And a douche at times. Maybe they can start over again, with Diggle, and broaden how he thinks in a fight. If Roy loses (unspoiled, so wishful thinking on my part) the Mirikuru, he can't just keep wading into a scrum of Bad Guys. 

 

To see John and Sara mentor Felicity and Sin (not exclusively John/Felicity, Sara/Sin) would be nice as well. What I liked about Leverage was that as the seasons progressed, each specialist could do what the other three could do. (Very rarely did anyone but Nate "get" to be The Mastermind.) Not in the exact way as the specialist, but competently. Again, this is Team/Teen Arrow and select parties only. (No Laurels allowed.)

[writersblock51]

 

Are they desperately trying to sell a lemon so they're attributing things to the character that aren't in the script/episode to tell/convince the audience that she's awesome?

 

I believe this is exactly what they are doing.  This is the Tell Don't Show experience, remember?

[catrox14]

LOL seen on Tumblr. I'll leave the link without comment except to say LOLOLOLOL

 

http://iknowwhatcanhelpyou.tumblr.com/post/84808959130/whoever-he-is-hes-willing-to-sacrifice-an-awful

[catrox14]

I mean seriously. If fans can figure out the problem via a tumblr gifset, how the fuck do the writers and showrunners not get this?

/head desk

[pawneeranger]

*raises hand* I've been lurking the past few weeks, I recently have been catching up, but...

 

 

I know you Oliver like I know my own name.

 

Maybe all the focus on how she knows Oliver is misdirection. Wouldn't it be interesting if the writers tried to remedy all their Black Cat/Laurel issues by making Katie Cassidy's character realize SHE isn't who she thought she was?

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Maybe all the focus on how she knows Oliver is misdirection. Wouldn't it be interesting if the writers tried to remedy all their Black Cat/Laurel issues by making Katie Cassidy's character realize SHE isn't who she thought she was?

 

We can only dream but I think the EPs are way to obsessed with KC to think something creative like this.

[quarks]

In Cassidy's most recent interview, released today, she expressed some things that sounded like major frustration to me (I don't think she likes the way Laurel gets kidnapped all the time either) but she also had an interesting comment relative to this discussion:

 

"She loves him so much for [being Arrow], because he is doing good, and she’s a good-doer."

 

As that gifset notes, that has not always been Laurel's attitude towards Oliver. Though, if we take Alibelle's analysis, this response from Laurel does make sense: she didn't necessarily trust or want the vigilante around while he was just a vigilante, although she didn't hesitate to use him when needed, but now that she knows the vigilante is really billionaire Oliver Queen (because apparently she still doesn't know he's out of money) she's all GO ARROW GO!

 

But the other issue, regarding relationships, is that once again, this suggests that Laurel loves or is falling in love not with Oliver, but with what she thinks Oliver represents. 

 

Compare for a second to Game of Thrones, where Cersei loves Joffrey because the little monster is her kid and she can't help it - but remains aware of what he is.  

 

This also seems an attempt once again to suggest that Oliver and Laurel are similar people focused on doing good.  That does present an interesting contrast to the bond between Oliver and Sara, who are similar people because they are both traumatized, but different in their focus: Oliver on trying (and often failing) to be a hero; Sara taking the pragmatic approach. So Laurel wins on this one. However, the long term romantic rivalry seems to be between Laurel and Felicity, and here the issue is that Felicity is also focused on doing good - in fact, in this last episode, while Laurel was focused on going after Blood, Felicity was focused on finding another way - and also noting the issue with dumping walls on people, Mirakurued or not.

 

I'm also not sure why there's any insistence that Oliver and Laurel are alike. From what we've seen, although they may share some of the same values, they really aren't, pre island or currently.  He grew up insanely wealthy and not really seeming to understand the value of money or why people might not have change for a hundred on them; she grew up solidly middle class. The Lance house in the flashbacks was nice enough but ordinary.  She takes office work so seriously that losing a job that frankly treated her like crap made her even more depressed; he's like, wait, I have to answer phone messages? Are you kidding me? I mean, yes, he was distracted, but to give Laurel her due, she continued to work while distracted.  We've often seen Laurel reading a book, and she seems fairly intellectual; Oliver got all excited when he finally remembered one book.  She likes to plan her life; he's still working his out. And you know, this is fine - television does the "opposites attract" all the time, and there's no real reason that you have to be that much like your romantic partner on television.  Arguably part of the draw of the Felicity/Oliver romance is that they aren't alike either. Laurel and Oliver have much larger issues than these differences.

Edited May 7, 2014 by quarks

[BkWurm1]

Arguably part of the draw of the Felicity/Oliver romance is that they aren't alike either. Laurel and Oliver have much larger issues than these differences.

 

The thing about Felicity and Oliver is that though they are very different people on the surface, at their core, they share many of the same beliefs and goals.  

 

Oliver is committed now to save the city.  Felicity along with Diggle is his partner in this goal.    Their whole lives revolve around the choice they made because something in each of them says it's the right thing to do.  Both Oliver and Felicity are people that don't give up easily and they find a way to get back up if their faith is shaken.  They aren't blind to the dangers in the world but they don't let them hold them back from doing what's important.  They both are at a place where they don't want to cross that line over to killing but have come to understand sometimes there are no other options. 

 

They are people who are wiling to make the sacrifices, willing to do what is necessary.  Oliver and Felicity are different but their differences are floating over a solid foundation and in the end it's the differences that when put together makes them stronger.

[writersblock51]

 

But the other issue, regarding relationships, is that once again, this suggests that Laurel loves or is falling in love not with Oliver, but with what she thinks Oliver represents.

 

I had the same response to KC's recently published interview.  And I love that gifset because it highlights the ridiculousness of her argument, IMO.

 

If KC truly believes the BS that's pouring out of her mouth, then I have concerns about her ability to do her job well. I  don't think she's a good fit for the role anyway, but this just emphasizes the glaring disconnect between intent and what's presented.

 

I also agree that Laurel and Oliver have very little in common.  That's not necessarily a problem except when she tries to push the idea that she knows him better than anyone else (when she clearly doesn't have 2 clues to rub together) and that, in KC's interview, they are meant to be together. 

 

On the other hand, Sara and Oliver have far more in common with each other, truly know each other better than most, and yet, their pain and history presents real challenges that lean towards them being better as friends than lovers.

 

Then there's Felicity and Oliver.  A lot has been said about their relationship and, for me, I'm not sure he's 'as good' for her (at this point) as she is for him.  So - if they ultimately figure out how to make a intimate, long term relationship happen between them - I'm fine with them NOT rushing into anything right now.  He's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hurt, damaged, angry and raw to be able to let himself relax and be loved.  I'm not saying that Sara and he were horrible for each other in this recent get together - I think they helped each other.  But there's still so much hurt, pain and trauma between them (and individually) that they would be better off, I think, with people who can empathize but not wholly relate.

 

Felicity knows him as he is now, and she's still learning about who he was.  I imagine her reaction to his child (S3) will be different than those of Sara and Laurel, since he was involved with both of them at the time the child was conceived. (eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww)    Felicity didn't know him then, and she's more than aware of the many mistakes and character short comings he had 6+ years ago.  And, as things stand today, I think the blinders have been off for some time in terms of how she sees him now.

But it's worth noting that she'd still stick by him (along with Diggle, who has yet another perspective into Oliver).  They know, better than anyone else, the risks he's taken, the costs he suffered and the reasons he keeps at it.  They knew why he'd want to sacrifice himself, even if they didn't agree.  One thing (beyond what's already been commented on with the scene in the new lair) about his conversation with Felicity and Diggle that stuck with me - is how he focused on her, then Diggle, and listened to every word.  His attention was sad but rapt.  When he listened to Laurel's speech, his expression was angry and he didn't seem to listen with the same intensity until she mentioned Blood's name.

 

And the hug, eeeeck.  He looked annoyed.

 

Laurel and Oliver will never work for me beyond friendship.  He's never loved her the way a boyfriend would.  He's disrespected her countless times.  She loves the idea of being in love with him, and her hero worship of him, now, is hard to stomach. 

 

Plus, the whole sister swapping thing is disgusting.  Why the EPs think it's entertaining is beyond me.  It's actually disturbing that they don't seem the least bit bothered by it.

Edited May 7, 2014 by writersblock51

[BkWurm1]

I've watched the scene in the new lair between Oliver and Felicity several times over the course of the last week and there is a moment after Felicity and Diggle,have tried to talk him out of turning himself into Slade when Oliver is holding Felicity's hand and silently gazing into her eyes. He looks at her with what seems like such regret. Each time I watch I feel like Oliver is imagining the life and love he is sacrificing to keep everyone safe. I blamed some wishful thinking on my part but each time I watch, I read the same message on SA face.

I can't reconcile the lovely build of emotions we've seen between Oliver and Felicity and the random lies that prop up,Laurel.

[writersblock51]

Well, if you've seen KC's interview (just published, I don't have the link), she gushes on about how  Laurel is more deeply in love with Oliver than ever, is very forgiving of his mistakes (seems confident Laurel will be oh so understanding about the child, too), and they have the same goals.

 

Good God, either she's drunk or the show is seriously tanking.

[icandigit]

 

Oliver is holding Felicity's hand and silently gazing into her eyes. He looks at her with what seems like such regret. Each time I watch I feel like Oliver is imagining the life and love he is sacrificing to keep everyone safe. I blamed some wishful thinking on my part but each time I watch, I read the same message on SA face.

I was getting that from the scene too. Maybe i'm not so crazy after all.

 

I was never really into Oliver and Laurel, but in the beginning it was tolerable because it was  the usual superhero setup I'm used to. I just accepted it as part of the genre. I don't think I'll ever be into them but the writiers could help alot by admitting that she's a bitch and that she doesn't know Oliver. I'm ok with Oliver beiing infatuated with someone who's not nice.  I think its a more interesting story if she knew him, but doesn't know him anymore but has to restablish a relationship with a damaged jerk. I remember wanting so much more from their ice cream scene. I was kinda interested in seeing people who were previously in love try to reconnect.

[calliope1975]

SA is really going to have to step it up with KC to sell any type of romance, because he looks like he can't stand her half the time. Versus with EBR/Felicity who he looks at like he either wants to spend the rest of his life with her and/or bang her against the nearest surface. 

 

I know he's a busy guy, but he and KC need to either rehearse or work out some back story or something as to why O/L would want to be in the same room together let alone some grand love. Or he needs to dial it back with EBR which I think he did do these past several episodes. Of course, that was followed up with the 5 minute hand holding stare of regret and lost opportunities.

Edited May 7, 2014 by calliope1975

[Alibelle]

The thing is, I started watching this show expecting to like Laurel better than Oliver.  I usually like the female characters best in action shows, and the pilot had these hints that Laurel had her own action arc that we were going to build on, I went online and heard about the Black Canary, and I was totally prepared to get on board, and looking forward to where they were going to go with her.  And it's truly not that important to me that Katie Cassidy doesn't look like she can beat up people on her own, so long as they are smooth about the transition to the stunt double.  I mean, I happily accepted that Sarah Michelle Gellar could kick major butt for years, and she's even more slender and petite than Cassidy. Heck, I was even fully willing to believe that Juliet Landau was a serious physical menace.  Because their job was to act as though they were, and they did, and I was sold.  I'm even generous enough to go along for the ride when actors are maybe not as great as I would wish, but they're serviceable enough to get the point across, and that's all I really require out of them.  (And KC's early action scenes were fine here.  Impressive?  Not really.  Good enough for me to accept?  Yes, fine.)  And I even liked Katie Cassidy in Monte Carlo, so I wanted her to do well.

 

But then Oliver and Laurel's first scene together was filled with SERIOUS venom on her part.  There was no warmth there.  There was no curiosity or interest in how he had survived.  She was downright vicious.  So that shook me a little, but I was willing to let it go because she did have a truly excellent reason to hate him.  No reason that I knew of to ever see him in a romantic light ever again, but to hate him, yes.  And honestly, I was still willing to give Laurel the benefit of the doubt, since Oliver's actions were seriously shitty, so the choice of going fully hateful over hurt/confused/conflicted made sense.  So I took it to mean that the show wasn't particularly interested in exploring the romance stuff any time soon, which isn't exactly surprising on a show that has been marketed this heavily towards a male demographic, so I was willing to put it off for a very long time too, as Oliver and Laurel grew to get to know each other again, as the new people that they are.  Okay, that's fine.  Then they made it clear that Tommy liked her, and I was basically like: UGH. NO. TRIANGLES SUCK. DO NOT WANT. DO NOT WANT!!!

 

Then they had the scene where Laurel took his shirt off and they started making out, and I was like, okay, I guess we are doing this.  It is, weirdly, not as sexy as when Thea was examining him shirtless, but what can you do?  And honestly, based on the first Queen sibling hug, I was pretty much waiting for the moment when they'd fill us in that Thea was adopted or something, since there was some serious sparkage there before we ever even met Laurel.  Once we did meet Laurel, I assumed that the Thea/Oliver was accidental, and we were meant to ignore it.  Which, fine, whatever.  And I figured they did the sexy shirt discovering thing with Laurel, since it was so sparky with Thea, surely it would be extra sparky with a love interest!  Not so much.  Live and learn.  Oh well.

 

Then we meet Felicity, and I fell in love with Felicity, as it seems like everyone else did as well, from Oliver to network execs.  And they started to back off of Oliver and Laurel, and really pursue Tommy and Laurel, and I thought that they had recognized their mistake, and were going to make it so that Tommy and Laurel ended up as Oliver's friends, friends who support and rely on each other, and basically take the romance out, like the Scooby gang of Buffy, Willow, and Xander.  Bedrock friends, with Tommy and Laurel standing in for Willow and Xander (where Tommy is OBVIOUSLY Willow because...come on, cutie-pie supportive BFF who occasionally struggles with an inferiority complex and has the potential to go villain?).  But, uh, not so much.  It appears as though there's still no real love lost between Laurel and Oliver, and while Tommy and Oliver are obviously still friends, there's insecurity that there that strains that friendship.  Which is too bad.  And the super friends group quickly enough solidifies into Oliver/Diggle/Felicity, and though there's still the slow simmer of Oliver/Felicity in the background, it's not an urgent relationship that needs pursuing yet, as Oliver has a number of things to work through.  So Oliver hooks up with Helena (which made sense, and I actually really really liked this mini-arc), then later Makenna (which was fine, but relatively boring, and I was pretty indifferent to it.  There were literally no stakes in this relationship, nothing in common, nothing particularly funny, no interesting insights.  It was just there.  And again, whatever, Oliver was on the island for a long time, it was nice to see him put on some training wheels and get back on the dating horse or whatever that was. Because basically it was practice dating before the big test where you try to date someone you care about), as things slowly start to get more emotionally tangled with Felicity--again, though, this is only the super duper beginnings of stuff with her, that neither one of them even really realized yet.

 

Then, out of left field, suddenly Oliver and Laurel is trying to become a viable thing again. For who knows why.  Oliver has barely seen her since he came home, he seemed like a HUGE Tommy/Laurel fangirl, and literally the only moment of even mildly friendly interaction between them seemed to be in the episode where he helped her out with the Firefly firestarter mystery guy, which was ages ago.  WHY is this a thing??  And so I pretty much just figured that Oliver had to get it out of his system, since he had been harboring a lot of fantasies on the island about what his life was going to be like when he got back home, and Laurel, or at least the idea of her, had featured heavily in those, and he wasn't quite willing to let the idea of that go yet.  Then the undertaking happened, Tommy died, everything went to shit, and Oliver/Laurel seemed to realize their mutual mistake and break up.

 

I ended season one feeling fairly indifferent and bored by Laurel mostly, with the occasional moments of irritation and annoyance, as judgy self-righteous damsels in distress are not my fave thing, but whatever. I didn't totally hate her. They could still fix her.

 

Then, during season two, Laurel basically wandered around either disliking Oliver or being impatient with him, hating the Arrow, and then later being super ragey (and apparently drunk?) and hating everyone, so she was rude to Felicity on multiple occasions, rude to Thea, mean to her father, and hated her sister. She was also not a fan of doors, Sebastian Blood, the letter of the law, or her old friend Joanna.  She tried to get Moira life in prison.  She semi-dated(?) her hot boss ADA Donner but was bored and rude to him too.  And I was just searching for something, anything, going on with her that would allow me to root for her.  So she figured out Blood wasn't as awesome as he seemed, and I was like, yay, finally, something!  And that went nowhere.  And I was like...okay.  [bTW, was I the only one that hoped that Felicity would contact Laurel about Blood and how she may have been onto something around the time that Officer Daley died?  Then they could have teamed up and started out sort of prickly, but worked together and ended up semi-friendly as they brought down Blood together?  I could have seriously rooted for that.]  Then she realized that Oliver and Sara were back together, and she got super pissed, and I was like, yes!  That is a completely justified and logical reaction!  It was SUPER RUDE of Sara to bring Oliver to her sister's house, unannounced, when this very relationship was such a key element in the damage that was done to their family.  And I was angry at Oliver and Sara, and I was seriously rooting for Laurel to lose it on them.  Dude, she had been having a rough year, get that self-respect back! Kick them out of your apartment!  Be grossed out by their relationship, and hurt about it.  Be angry at your mom for knowing about it, and letting Sara get on the boat anyway.  Don't be angry at your dad, as he doesn't really deserve it.  Or if you do get angry at him, get angry at him for falling apart with alcoholism when you were the one who wanted to fall apart when you found out your sister ran off with your boyfriend and the only reason you found out was because they both died.  That is a legit complaint.  A kind one?  No.  An honest one?  Hells, yes, and I would've been interested to see it.

 

But then we had Laurel apologize to Sara, not for being angry that she was still alive really, but for being so beautiful and together.  Which...record scratch, what?  That left me, once again, so confused about how to relate to Laurel.

 

And then we had Laurel giving Oliver and Sara encouraging relationship advice.  Just gross.  What's next, sex tips?  Just stop it.  I don't want to see this.

 

And so now, suddenly, to be told that Laurel is super in love with Oliver, and that the two of them are a forever romance and they know each other so well,  just leave me basically like, you know what?  I'm done.  I do not understand.  I keep TRYING to understand.  I wanted to understand.  But these two characters are barely acquaintances.  And they're not good for each other, from what we've seen in their every interaction.  And I'm pretty much just totally out of patience with it.  And I don't think I've disliked a character this intensely since Riley Finn, and Marti Noxon's super irritating/tone deaf interviews about his specialness.

 

I'm not actually anxious about how they try and include her in things because so far they have not done a great job of including her in anything whatsoever, and they're fickle about having her stay with any sort of plot, so even if she is in the Arrow cave for now, she likely won't be for long.  And I've honestly yet to see a romantic moment between her and Oliver.  The bonding over Russian, loneliness, and vodka that Isabel and Oliver had was more romantic than anything I've seen with Laurel/Oliver, so whatever.  I'm losing my will to parse out her character motivations because I think I'm trying too hard to make them make sense.  And instead I'll just go on quietly enjoying this epic Oliver/Felicity romance that I think they are writing by accident, if the interviews are anything to go by. 

[writersblock51]

Alibelle, your post - once again - is a perfect summation of the problems I also have with the Laurel character and the Oliver/Laurel relationship.  Well done! 

[TwistedandBored]

I just love Felicity/Diggle and Walter/Thea relationship ships. They are a pleasure to watch whenever they are on-screen. 

[KirkB]

The thing about so many people having problems with Oliver and Laurel, quite frankly, is Amell and Cassidy. You can't MAKE chemistry happen. Regardless of how good the actors are, or how many romantic scenes you put them in together, if the actors don't click nothing else matters. Audiences generally can't connect with two actors who don't work well together, and will rarely accept the relationship. When that happens the showrunners either have to throw everything they can at the screen and hope something develops or abandon the whole thing and try something different. Since Oliver and Laurel aren't really considered a OTP they do have a little bit of leeway here but I'd hope they would let Oliver figure out who he is and what he's trying to accomplish before he decides who he wants to try and spend the rest of his life with.

[BkWurm1]

Bringing over a copy of an entry I posted at TWoP. --

A big piece of contention have with City of Fire is the announcement that whoever Slade takes is the person Oliver loves the most. Why did they have to make this a competition? How would Slade even realistically know? Plus if it isn't Thea, it makes dOliver into a jerk and since Slade has had Thea twice and let her go, I'm pretty sure he's not after Thea.

The show could have Slade drop a line about family not counting, after all Slade is all revengy because of romantic love not filial love.

So then Sara, Laurel, or Felicity cause Oliver couldn't possibly have some love of his life that moved away or something. It's just again, how would Slade REALLY know? I wish they had expanded a bit on Slade bugging them. Has it just been the past couple months? I'd expect more from Slade. I'd also expect Felicity to notice their phone being bugged but that is another subject.

Sara remains the most reasonable target of Slade's hate since she's the one Oliver supposedly chose over Shado but then Oliver had spent plenty of time mooning over Laurels picture and she was the one he was officially dating...six years ago. After all that had happened why would Slade think Laurel would have anything to do with Oliver. If he'd been watching, Slade wouldn't have seen anything that resembled a close relationship.

Then there is Felicity. Friends, partners, someone he trusts and someone who absolutely believes in him. That's Diggle too though. Why would he connote those very strong emotions into a non plutonic love? Is he a shipper, cause I get it, there's all this potential but if neither party has admitted to what is stirring below the surface, would he even realize her importance to himself?

This is why Bloods claim that Slade will kill the one Oliver loves the most is a terrible way to frame what is to come.

Unless the show runners want to end any speculation as to what endgame is. But that surely would alienate a passionate chunk of viewers no matter who they pick. Why then bother giving weight to all three ships in this episode? In this season? Shakes head.

[quarks]

I really don't think that Slade's choice will end the speculation. I mean, he sorta has a reason to kidnap any of the three: he saw Oliver moping over Laurel's picture for months; he probably knows that Oliver started dating Sara when Sara returned and may or may not know that they broke up; and he's been tapping Oliver and Felicity's phones, so who knows what his nutcase mind concluded from that. Also, Isabel seemed pretty angry and jealous about Felicity, and might have said something to Slade. 

 

At the same time, this is Slade choosing, and although the guy is great about assembling massive armies of superpowered criminals and letting them loose on the city, he's not all there. So none of his choices would really mean all that much:

 

Slade kidnaps Laurel?  Oh, well, the whole thing that Slade saw with Oliver staring at Laurel's picture was six years ago. Slade's not up to date on what's happening now.

 

Slade kidnaps Sara? Oh, well, Slade apparently didn't hear about their breakup.

 

Slade kidnaps Felicity? Oh, well, he got his info from Isabel, who has some inexplicable thing against Felicity - remember when Isabel said she wanted to shoot Felicity's smug face?  So that doesn't mean anything.

 

And I don't think anyone would argue that Oliver wouldn't try to save all three regardless of whether or not they are his Twu Wuvs. We've seen that in the show. I may not be shipping Oliver and Laurel, but if Slade kidnaps Laurel and Oliver doesn't try to save her, I will call shenanigans because that's completely against everything we've seen so far. Same for Sara and Felicity.

 

That's the real problem here. If this were set up to let Oliver choose who he loves most, then, sure, I'd say that it would give a pretty strong indication of the final endgame. But since this is Slade's choice, sure, it might let various shippers squee a bit, and I'm sure I'll be bringing it up in later posts, but I don't see why or even how it could end the debate. Give some indication, maybe, but that's it.

[Sakura12]

Slade kidnaps Sara? Oh, well, Slade apparently didn't hear about their breakup

 

Just because you break up someone doesn't mean you suddenly stop loving them. What Slade knows is that Oliver choose Sara over his girlfriend Laurel and Oliver choose Sara over his girlfriend Shado. That looks like Oliver always chooses Sara. So that's who Slade should choose. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sakura12

[quarks]

Sakura12, I agree that there's nothing on the show to suggest that Oliver has stopped caring for Sara - kinda the opposite; the show just showed them kissing in the flashback.  I'm just saying that even if Slade kidnaps Sara, fans of the other two ships can and probably handwave that by saying, "Oh, Slade didn't know they broke up." 

 

Out of the three, I'd agree that Sara's the most logical choice for Slade - especially because even if Slade knows they broke up (and that's a huge, huge, if) Sara dumped Oliver, not the other way around, and as you correctly point out, Oliver has chosen Sara at least twice that Slade knows about (although I wish they'd drop that "Shado died because I chose to save Sara" crap, because Shado died because Ivo was a sick bastard.)  But this show is not always logical.

[BkWurm1]

But since this is Slade's choice, sure, it might let various shippers squee a bit, and I'm sure I'll be bringing it up in later posts, but I don't see why or even how it could end the debate. Give some indication, maybe, but that's it.

 

In the episode it will be Slade's choice and yes, the characters in the show will wave away all that Blood said about Slade going after the person Oliver loves the most for all the reasons that were mentioned but it really isn't Slade choosing the one Oliver loves the most, it is the show runners.

 

It's the show runners that went from a vague "someone close to Oliver's heart" to a verrrrry specific the one "you love MOST".  It's the meta meaning about the choice that has me confused as to why they would go there.  Why bother setting it up as a definitive choice unless they want to telegraph to the audience who Oliver loves the most?  And unless it is Thea (or himself) that knocks down a very passionate set of fans.

[statsgirl]

It's a tease. I hope it won't turn out badly for us.

 

If Oliver knew he had a son, I'd vote for that because parents often love their children with a fierceness no partner can match. Look at Moira.  But even if Slade knew about the son, Oliver doesn't.

 

Right now, there is no stand-out candidate for "the one Oliver loves the most".  He loves Thea, Laurel and Sara in different ways. He probably knows that he cares for Felicity in 'a good friend' kind of way, as he does Diggle. I think it would be really stupid for the show to say at this point "this is the person Oliver loves the most" unless it's his sister although I personally wouldn't mind some hint of romantic feelings for Felicity.

 

You know, maybe Slade does tell Oliver that he has a son, and then tries to kill him.  (Doesn't succeed though because that would be cutting off a lot of good storylines.)
 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't really have a prediction for Slade's plans, but taking Felicity makes the most sense to me from a season-long arc perspective. We know he's been watching the team for months, planting cameras and tapping their phones and comms. We had a whole episode devoted to how riled up Oliver got when Felicity wasn't around as much as he was used to. We had another episode that established that it's really Felicity whose value to the team is immeasurable, because while Sara, Dig, Roy, and Oliver are all strong and trained, no one else can do what Felicity does.

 

Did Slade see all of that? Has he noticed her value? Killing Laurel or Sara might be more satisfying to Slade personally, but killing Felicity would do more damage to The Arrow (and Oliver, in my opinion, but I'm not sure Slade is THAT perceptive). Kidnapping Felicity and forcing her to do work for him would be even better.

[bravelittletoaster]

But Slade harps (on and on) at every fucking opportunity about Oliver choosing Sara over Shado. Wouldn't that suggest she's the one he a: assumes Oliver loves and b: would like to deliver payback to himself? Not that I at all want that to happen. It's just what I'm afraid is the most logical answer.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, like I said, I think Sara (or Laurel, to a lesser extent) might be the more natural and satisfying choice from Slade's perspective. But the smarter move would be Felicity, and it would be more interesting to me if Slade really was that smart.

[Alibelle]

The fact that Slade really didn't care about Ivo at all, and instead focused all his rage on Oliver, shows that his thinking is more lateral than logical. And, honestly, Blood didn't really know anything, so he just assumed the person would be whomever Oliver loved most (which is torturous for Oliver because if they've been persistent in establishing one thing, it's that Oliver has a lot of love to go around). Even Isabel has no idea who Shado is, so clearly she's not particularly in the loop with Slade either. Plus, she was looking for Felicity in order to kill her, so if Slade had had her as a particular target in mind, it seems like he didn't communicate it to his #2. Because we know that Slade does take Felicity, according to the promo. 

 

So maybe by "close to his heart" they meant literally. Because Felicity is only yea tall, and stands next to Oliver a lot.

[ArctisTor]

But Slade harps (on and on) at every fucking opportunity about Oliver choosing Sara over Shado. Wouldn't that suggest she's the one he a: assumes Oliver loves and b: would like to deliver payback to himself? Not that I at all want that to happen. It's just what I'm afraid is the most logical answer.

I think one way or another, Slade is going to kill Sara.  Simply for her being alive while Shado's dead.  Though the thing with that, because she's tied with the League of Assassins like Malcolm Merlyn and Merlyn's whole, "There are parts of the world where death is an illusion"?  I don't know if "Arrow's" League has Lazarus Pits, but I wouldn't be shocked they have some equivalent thanks to the existence of a plot device like Mirakuru the magic juice around.  Slade wouldn't know the League has anything like this, so just assumes whatever he does, Sara is dead.  Maybe everyone else assumes it too, but Nyssa gets her back to Nanda Parbat and manages to save her in the nick of time.  Though probably with Sara beholden to the League for the rest of her days, if she isn't already calling them into Starling City for help based on this Wednesday's promo.

 

Basically what I think goes down is Slade intends to wipe out everyone - specifically all the women - who could qualify as Oliver's remaining most loved, Thea, Felicity, Laurel and Sara.  Though I think of those four, only Sara will (appear to) die.  Malcolm successfully protects Thea (and maybe he dies in the process because there's no last minute salvation for him).  Sara tries to protect Laurel, but I think Slade potentially has nearly the whole of his army surrounding Laurel... this is specifically intending Sara to die, knowing or baiting Sara to rescue her sister.  Though Slade has just enough respect for Sara to allow Sara to go down fighting.  Though what Slade doesn't know is the League has some kind of magic juice of their own, so Sara is saved in the nick of time, just likely sequestered at Nanda Parbat for the foreseeable future (maybe with Sara making guest appearances later on).

 

Slade takes Felicity and Oliver goes to rescue her.  This would seem to classify Felicity as Oliver's most beloved.  Which I do think she is, at least these days.  Though I fully admit I'm all for Oliver/Felicity happening, I don't necessarily need them "endgame" to enjoy the relationship/romance arc.  I tend to think they won't be "endgame".  I certainly could be wrong and would be glad to own it if I turn out to be, but the way I've always seen post-island Oliver is he's a survivor and he's adapted this kind of Love The One You're With mentality as directly tied to that intensely honed survival instinct.  I'm not sure he has conscious awareness he's doing this, but because I think his close relationship to Felicity is tied to that survival instinct and I feel he trusts her in a way he trusts very few others with the exception of Diggle, even Sara (who I feel has sort of been tainted, so to speak, by her association to the League even if Oliver didn't entirely or openly acknowledge this and as much as Oliver trusts Sara personally, I don't think he's ever trusting the likes of the LoA)?  He loves Felicity and loves her most of the women close to him, again, at least these days.  That could change, if Felicity does or has done something that betrays his trust in a critical way somehow and/or, Oliver's head being what it is, even if it's something maybe not entirely or not at all her fault (like who her father is or turns out to be, for example).  I don't think Oliver trusts remotely easily, not even his friends entirely.  I think he trusts Diggle and Felicity the most (they're "the only ones that matter") as they know the most about the person he is now, but that deep wariness is really hard for him to shake-off.  I'm not sure he ever will and maybe he shouldn't considering how he spends his nights.  Though I do think something happens in the finale where he finally reveals more to them and potentially Thea he's ever done before.  Maybe it's full disclosure time finally for his team or as close to it as we're getting for now.  Hopefully in parallel to this, we start getting more information about Felicity.  I could be giving the writers more credit than they deserve, but I could see the irony there of how she's one of the closest characters to the main character/hero, that this distrustful, survivalist hero is potentially in love with her, and she talks so much, yet her background remains so elusive.  How Felicity at once appears this open book, yet has this whole background story we only barely know about.  Maybe there are things there Oliver could wish (and maybe we wish) he didn't know.

[KirkB]

If all Slade wants is to kill the people (or women) closest to Oliver, why wouldn't he have done it already? And why would he need the Strokes? He's had plenty of opportunities to take out Sara, Laurel and Thea. Even Felicity, once or twice. Crazy as he is he must have some kind of a plan beyond just "Oliver's people must die like Shado." Of course, I know the real answer. If Slade was as efficient as he could be the season would be like an episode or two long. I'm trying to come up with an in universe answer, and the best thing I can come up with is he just wants to mess with Oliver first. Torment his friends, trash his city, and just when Oliver is at his lowest put an arrow through his eye.

[apinknightmare]

 

the best thing I can come up with is he just wants to mess with Oliver first. Torment his friends, trash his city, and just when Oliver is at his lowest put an arrow through his eye.

 

Yeah, I think this is it. Where's the pleasure in just ending it for him? When you're out-of-your-mind batshit, you want to make the object of your hatred panic a little, run scared, doubt himself. Then, like you said, kill him when he's at his lowest.

 

If I'm Slade and I've been stewing on this for years and years? I'd let myself have some fun at Oliver's expense first.

[statsgirl]

Absolutely. Slade's been planning this revenge for 5+ years now, he's going to make it as awful for Oliver as he can.

 

 

the way I've always seen post-island Oliver is he's a survivor and he's adapted this kind of Love The One You're With mentality as directly tied to that intensely honed survival instinct.

I think Oliver's journey back from the island has also been about the walls he put himself behind on the island, and the coming down of those walls starting with Diggle reaching out to him.  But there are still walls there, although not as thick as before.  That's why he was okay with saying to Sara "we need to get a place" but not okay when she put it into the context of moving in together.

 

He's also been slow to let Diggle and Felicity in even though they are the people who know the most about him right now.  He didn't talk about Slade till he came into town, nor about Shado until he had to.  In City of Blood, in both the Diggle & Felicity and Laurel scenes he was open about needing to sacrifice himself but still holding back.  With Felicity in the clock tower, he opened up more than I've ever seen him to with a post-island person, he talked about the mistakes he'd made and his disappointment in himself as usual but it seemed more genuine and real rather than something he was monitoring to see what would be okay to say. Maybe at that point he had finally let someone in because in their next scenes, he was more open than I've seen him in Starling City before.  I'll be interested to see if it carries over into the next episode.

[GirlWednesday]

For a couple of episodes, he has been "closed" off from the team. Distracted with all else going on, since Felicity telling him about his mom. Can anyone confirm? I cannot bring myself to go rewatch season 2.5. Maybe this was the writers intention - the distance between the arrow triad, lack of screen presence highlighting this aspect. Oliver realizing he needs them to be three again.

Nah.. They are just making it up as they go.

[KirkB]

So, you are positing the idea that it was Laurel who 'died' on the boat with Oliver and Sara who was left behind in Starling? And asking whether or not the vocal Tumblr people would still be as supportive of KC's Sara? Well, I don't spend any real time on Tumblr so I can't speak to that aspect of it, but I imagine the comic purists want Oliver with Laurel. Regardless of who is playing her. For the rabid Tumblr folks, KC's character (regardless of her name) is the one Oliver was shown to have been pining for, at least until the island scenes kept showing us his feelings for CL's character and for Shado. The people who jump down your throat whenever you dare to question Oliver and Laurel though, are probably more drawn to the actors chemistry. SA and KC are as much if not more of the draw as Oliver and Laurel, so in answer to your question if they switched the names I don't think it would matter much to a lot of the Tumblrs.

[quarks]

To be fair, the show spent an entire season attempting to convince us, chemistry or no chemistry, history or no history, that Oliver and Laurel were in love/still in love. Oliver carried her picture around on the island and kept staring at it and when he finally got a hold of a phone, instead of calling his mother who could have gotten him OFF the island and also thought he was dead, he called Laurel and then didn't even say anything.  Laurel, meanwhile, was so in love that she couldn't stay angry at him when he showed up to her doorstep with ice cream even though earlier in the episode she had said she should never talk to him, and felt drawn to the Hood when not hating the Hood (sigh) and showing an interest in Oliver even with another cute billionaire around.  And the second she was free, she and Oliver got together, only to be separated again by Tommy's death (sigh.)  I may not have been convinced by any of this, but it was definitely in the script.  It was even strong enough that many people gave this as their major reason for not believing in Sara/Oliver this season, shared island past or no shared island past. 

 

So, after all that, I can understand people assuming that the show is going to go in this direction - and even should.  Why else would we have been subjected to all of that if there wasn't going to be a payoff? 

 

That, by the way, is now going to be the problem in the other direction if the show does go back to Laurel/Oliver after Sara/Oliver and Felicity/Oliver, because the show went to equal if not more lengths to establish Felicity/Oliver and to establish that Sara/Oliver spent several months running around an evil island together, giving them more of a history than Laurel/Oliver.  And indeed, that's exactly why I'm wondering if the show is or even can go back to Laurel/Oliver: sure, this show spent a season trying to build them up - but then spent most of the next season pulling them down.

 

Interestingly, that ice cream moment keeps getting brought up by a lot of Laurel/Oliver fans - I say interestingly, because that happened in the second episode of the season, which in turn suggests that there haven't been that many moments since. 

 

2. Some people have said that they do love angsty/dramatic/opposites attract/star-crossed relationships with huge, huge barriers that have to be overcome. It's kinda the classic romance formula going all the way back at least to the Odyssey (I mean, seriously, how many times did Odysseus cheat on poor Penelope during that twenty year period? With goddesses and princesses no less....huh. I'm starting to realize why Oliver liked that book. Moving on.) I'm sappy enough to love that sort of stuff in my fiction, too, so I can see that.

 

3. And there's the comic book purist aspect, although the comic book fans I know really seem to like Sara as the Black Canary and are hoping she doesn't die. 

[Sakura12]

Most of the time I see it's just because of the characters names and how they were together in the comics. I don't see many people talking about the amazing chemistry between the actors. If they had amazing chemistry it would've helped immensely. 

 

They don't even have a friendship chemistry. When Laurel and Oliver are in a room together, that's all it is two people in a room. Sara and Oliver didn't have much of a romantic chemistry but I could see they care about one another. 

 

I actually think the names should've been switched. Caity should be playing Dinah Lance who went on the boat with Oliver, then came back as the Black Canary. Cassidy's Sara could've been the disapproving older sister that never liked Oliver and blamed him for the death of her sister. She could've then seen how much his experiences had changed him. She could've developed feelings for him then Dinah returned from the dead and Oliver went back to her. It still would've been sister swapping but in a completely different context. They both thought Dinah died, but Oliver never stopped loving her so when she came back he couldn't deny his feelings for her. They also could've realized that they were both too damaged to be in a relationship and decided to just be crime fighting partners.

 

The best plus side would be no one would have to worry all season about Dinah dying so someone less deserving can take her place. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

I'd go a step further and agree with those who say Stephen and Katie have an almost anti-chemistry. When they are in scenes along with other people it's one thing but when it's just the two of them they suck all the air and energy out of the scene. I generally can't wait for Oliver/Laurel scenes to end. On the other hand Stephen seems to click really well with David, Manu, Susanna, Paul and Colin, and has impressive chemistry with Caity, Emily and even Willa. I know it's not Katie's acting because I liked her on Supernatural and I think she does fine in scenes with Paul.

 

What it comes down to, for me, is that the showrunners seem to believe (or at least want us to believe) that Oliver and Laurel have some big, epic love but they've done very little on the show to earn such a position. Hell, most of the time they don't even seem to like one another very much. And for the life of me I can't figure out what either sees in the other.

[GirlWednesday]

I interpreted the obsession of Laurel's pic as a lightening rod grounding Oliver in his first year and as his regret. Like his father, he had to right his wrongs. He regretted the crappyperson he was and he had to get back to Starling so he could make amends for his behaviour. Atone for his treatment of people in his life that he took for granted. If he had a picture of his family, he would have obsessed about that too, I would expect. In my interpretation of the show, I think Oliver stopped focussing on 'getting back to Starling' melancholy and started to really learn to survive with Slade/Shado. I never saw Laurel/Oliver as star-crossed anything.

If you want to apply star crossed doomed lovers, that would apply to Sarah/Oliver, no? Big sister took her crush away before she had a chance, got her chance with her crush, boat accident, remeet on the island, torn away over and over. Finally meet up with Oliver in starling but too many ghosts that haunt them both. If I look at Sarah/Oliver that way, I'm okay with the desperate grab and hookup and immediate relationship. Being Olicity fan and a Sarah fan, I'd even champion a triangle between S/O/F.

Edited May 13, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[Sakura12]

That's how I looked at Sara/Oliver, they were drawn together because of their shared darkness, shared pain, they felt safe with each other because they didn't have to hide. Long term wise it wouldn't work, but I took it as they both thought they were too damaged to be with anyone good so they got with someone just like them. We also have to take into account Sara's last relationship, which was with the daughter of her assassin master that's like an extreme version of dating your boss's kid. To me it looks like her and Oliver are just trying to find somewhere to belong. It made sense that they thought it was with each other. 

[Alibelle]

Well, since "star-crossed" literally means thwarted by bad luck, then the only couple it really applies to is Sara/Oliver.  Their relationship is the definition of terrible luck. For some reason, the term is usually treated as though it means "epic, fated, larger than life," but it really just means unlucky/doesn't work out in the end.  Which isn't Laurel/Oliver.  They didn't work out because Oliver was a really terrible boyfriend who was then physically absent.  That's not unlucky, that's just being a crappy person.

 

Felicity and Oliver, in contrast, aren't star-crossed either, they're pretty much just sweetness and honesty, with a bedrock of deep friendship.

 

I know which relationship I prefer, especially on a show that is otherwise pretty dark and angsty.

[catrox14]

I would go with the Joey Tribbiani school of if they have no chemistry on screen they are doing it offscreen but Amell is married with a baby, so I don't think that's true.  :)

 

For whatever reasons, these two just have nothing to give each other as characters or actors. Mileage varies and all that.

[quarks]

If you want to apply star crossed doomed lovers, that would apply to Sarah/Oliver, no?

 

 

Absolutely. It's even one of the major reasons why I think it's going to be so hard for the show to go back to Laurel/Oliver - because the one thing that Laurel/Oliver had was that "star-crossed lovers, true love is hard/difficultand angsty and various things keep you apart" thing that Once Upon a Time is milking for all it's worth over on ABC. Unfortunately for Laurel/Oliver, Sara/Oliver has the same thing, with a stronger shared history. It's one reason I can still see Sara/Oliver as an endgame and I'd be ok with it, even though I'm not so secretly rooting for Felicity/Oliver.

 

Regarding the chemistry - it's subjective, yes, but I can't help thinking that if Amell and Cassidy had the same chemistry as Amell and Bett-Rickards, or even Amell and Lotz, we would be having a very different conversation.

Edited May 13, 2014 by quarks

[Sakura12]

I don't think it's that Cassidy doesn't get along with the cast but that she doesn't get along with them that well. Everyone else seem to like each other and have fun hanging out even when they aren't shooting episodes. (at least it appears that way from the pics and vids they post with each other). The pics with Cassidy (that just started towards the end of the season) are only when they are on set.

 

I'm not saying every cast needs to be besties but the one's that are also show on screen. 

[BkWurm1]

I honestly think the disconnect I see on screen between KC and SA comes from two things. The major one is IMO a vastly different style of acting. KC talked in those Calgary Expo interviews about needing to fill out her characters reasoning and backstory and how Paul Blackstone was the same way and now I've just talked myself out of my own theory since Paul Blackstone has amazing chemistry with everyone. Hmm, maybe it's that he's more experienced and has learned to slip in and out of character easier.

KC spoke of how SA knew not to tease or play practical jokes on her this season since basically he knew she was taking Laurel to emotional places and that she stayed in character (I assume she meant between takes). If she had been method also in the first year and SA had teased and joked and played pranks, I imagine KC would have been frustrated since it would have likely knocked her out of character. I think that might be where the coolness and distance comes from. There could be a very cordial relationship but if the other person confuses them or they don't know how to treat them without worrying about stepping on toes, that can create a real negative and uncomfortable vibe.

The other thing that I was thinking came to play when it came to what I see as the anti-chemistry between Amell and Cassidy was how she spoke of Amell being married. She mentioned basically that it grossed her out to be kissing this married guy with a kid. I kind of liked her better for feeling that way. I wondered if she has an extra healthy respect of boundaries for off limit people (for reasons) that might make acting with them harder.

[Sakura12]

That's the point of acting though. Stephen is married with a kid, Oliver is not. She's supposed to be Laurel and he's Oliver. Acting on feelings outside of the show is what is wrong. When you are acting you are playing different people, if she can't do that she's in the wrong business. That also explains why her "acting" is so off. She is pretty much saying she can't do her job.

 

All the other actresses that have worked with Stephen are able to work with a fictional character and create the chemistry needed to show their characters wanting to kiss Oliver. Caity Lotz talked about how her and Stephen have become good friends and it was weird having to kiss him. She was talking about the kiss in ep 13. Even though it came out of nowhere, I thought it was a pretty hot kiss. She's new to acting was able to get over the hurdle of kissing a married guy she's friends with, because it's called ACTING. They were not Caity and Stephen kissing, they were Sara and Oliver kissing. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

Eh, I think KC is in some spin control speak at that con. I'm trying to figure out how Cassidy survived working on Supernatural for 2 seasons if pranks took her out of character.  My understanding is that entire set was/is a bunch of pranksters and they mess with each other during takes etc especially Padalecki. Ruby was never written as a straightforward character with clear motives and intentions other than being an interloper/villainous ally to the Winchesters.

 

None of those things seemed to affect Cassidy's characterization of Ruby which IMO was pretty consistent despite Ruby's motives and actions being sketchy the entire time. Did Cassidy just assume Ruby was a bitch and would always be a bitch so that was all she needed to go on to play her in a convincing manner?  She had a fantastic scene in the finale of s2 where she had to basically become a new character in the blink of an eye. She was GREAT doing that. I find it hard to believe that was solely from a director although to be fair Kim Manners directed most of those episodes early on and he was as a directing genius. But even her ability to emote was always present as Ruby and that seems to have gone missing here. Was the writing that much better in the early seasons of SPN than Arrow? Apples and oranges to a degree because different types of shows.

 

I think there is more to this than a lack of chemistry with Amell.  If  kissing a married co-star in the show skeeves her out, I don't really see how long she'll last as an actor in this world.  It's part and parcel of her job.

Edited May 13, 2014 by catrox14