Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't think the writers thought "Oliver and Laurel at this point had an off screen conversation where they both apologized for their behavior and moved on." I think they wanted some big dramatic moment to start pushing Laurel towards the way of being fine again because they were done with the darkest part of that story and they had it with Oliver because he is the lead character. I don't think they stopped to think that what he said and going to the dinner with Sara might have looked bad. From a character perspective I don't even think it made sense for Sara to ask Oliver to go to the dinner at Laurel's apartment..she isn't stupid and it was beyond obvious it was a stupid idea. But if they wrote the characters as reasonable people there wouldn't be drama and they loooove the drama.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, theOAfc said:

And thats exactly my point in this whole convo. As a writer you dont write such a heavy scene between two main characters only to ignore the aftermath and leave viewers assume it was lowkey resolved off screen. You unintentionally make it look like Oliver doesnt care for her when the scene you wrote gave the opportunity to highlight exactly the opposite. But in the show there was no pay off to such a big scene and the dynamic was eventually tainted even more despite the actors doing some decent job in the scene because the later interactions of the characters during the rest of the season were meh and Oliver wasnt shown to struggle at all with their big fight. I get that it wasnt his first priority but the show had enough time to show him sleep with Sara so im sure there was time to show him a little bit concerned with how he talked to Laurel. The way this played out,it just seemed like he didnt care at all and was only just done with her which many fans believed and hated Laurel even more after that scene. I never liked Laurel but im just saying,the dynamic was tainted a lot and every time a nice opportunity was given to highlight their care or love for each other(the so called tough love some fans claim that existed)it all fell flat because after their ugly scenes there was no pay off at all and zero struggle shown. You think there was really tough love there? Honestly.

Except Arrow DOES write heavy conversations and then ignore them, at least until they want to deal with that subject again.  Oliver and Felicity, we were told had all the important conversations they needed off screen over the summer hiatus...until they decided to do a flashback episode instead.  Oliver and Laurel pretty much were friendly-ish for years but it wasn't until after Laurel raised Sara from the dead and misplaced her that Laurel ever addressed how Oliver treated her and what she wanted from him.  

The only reason why I assume that Oliver and Laurel had some kind of a moment where they traded sorry's and moved on is that Oliver isn't avoiding her when we next see her around him.  They are already talking and fine.  There's no lingering hostility or awkwardness.  No, he's not really showing a lot of concern for her but he's not hating on her either.  

Their dynamic was mostly reset back to normal, but with Oliver no longer beating himself up over her.  (I also assume she said "I'm sorry" because that would be part of her AA steps, so even if it only happened for that reason, I assume it did happen since she was active in the program)

The reason there was no "payoff" is because the payoff was never about Oliver and Laurel becoming better friends at that point.  It was about Laurel getting her head out of her arse, lol.  And she did that when she went to Sara and asked for her forgiveness, and granted, it seemed backward for her to be apologizing to Sara when she felt Sara had done her wrong, but Sara deserved to be apologized to for Laurel wishing she was still dead so I got over it quickly.  

It also was about Oliver firmly putting Laurel in his past.  It was a turning point for him to decide he wouldn't be running after her anymore.  And that was something we saw in the writing going forward, that Oliver no longer got unhinged or made irrational choices when it came to Laurel.  He didn't stop caring, but she'd lost that hold over him, at least until she up and died and became Saint Laurel, sigh, this show.  

Quote

You think there was really tough love there? Honestly.

I think tough love probably means different things to different people.  It's tough love in that Oliver's behavior previously hadn't been healthy for either of them and by ending that unhealthy pattern, they both were free to move forward.  It wasn't Oliver making a calculated choice to act a certain way out of love in the hopes that she'd seek help, but it was IMO him realizing that what he had been doing wasn't working.  And he took himself out of the equation.  He was I'm sure happy when she did take personal responsibility after their argument and we saw in season three that he still cared very much and wanted her safe, but he was done babying her or mincing his words around her.  

If she hadn't responded and sought help, he might still have kept to his word and not chased after her, leaving it to her family to reach her or for Laurel to eventually to hit rock bottom on her own, but that still doesn't mean that he didn't care.  Tough love can be just setting up boundaries and not giving in to emotional blackmail.  It isn't always in ones control whether someone will respond positively, but it doesn't mean you suddenly hate the person if they don't.  Sometimes it takes a lot of time for someone to respond and make corrections, but sticking to your principles or beliefs about what you are doing doesn't mean there's no love behind the actions.  Proof of the "love" is that he kept her in his life even if he wasn't that enthusiastic about it, lol.  She was in a way, more family at that point, than friend.  And we don't always really like our family even when we love them.  

Edited June 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

...  Oliver and Laurel pretty much were friendly-ish for years but it wasn't until after Laurel raised Sara from the dead and misplaced her that Laurel ever addressed how Oliver treated her and what she wanted from him.  

Classic O/L scene from 4x05 (Haunted) -
Oliver: "Laurel, come with me." (He and Laurel exit hospital room.)
Laurel: "Is Thea okay?"
Oliver: "No. Not only is Thea hospitalized, but she has Merlyn influencing her to kill people."
Laurel: "What are you talking about?"
Oliver: "Oh, just another thing that happened on your secret trip to Nanda Parbat."
Laurel: "Hey! I didn't tell you that I took my sister to Nanda Parbat because I knew that you wouldn't approve."
Oliver: "Why didn't you tell me you took Thea?"
Laurel: "What does that have to do with anything?! It's the hypocrisy that I can't stand!"
Oliver: "What?"
Laurel: "It's okay for you to do whatever you have to for your sister, but it's not okay for me to do the same to mine?"
Oliver: "Sara was dead. Thea wasn't."
Laurel: "Then why didn't you tell me about Thea seven months ago? Because you don't see me as an equal."
Oliver: "What? Oh, come on. Laurel, of course I see you as an equal."
Laurel: "No, you don't! You never have. You never told me that you were the Arrow -"
Oliver: "Keep your voice down!"
Laurel: "- becoming the Black Canary. And you never would have told me that there's a way to save my sister. My sister, she's out of her mind right now. Because of something that I did. A decision that I made. Did you ever just stop and think for one second about what I might be going through? I'm sorry about what happened to Thea. I really am. I love your family - I always have. I just wish that sometimes you would give a damn about mine."

Edited June 8, 2017 by tv echo

[tangerine95]

I think that scene might just be the most awful,selfish and self centered that Laurel ever was,that whole storyline basically.Thea is in the hospital,Sara is crazy and killing people and it's her fault but Laurel wants Oliver to think about her feelings lol.

Idk how they considered this a moment of Laurel calling him out,she sounds so immature and pathetic.The stuff she's saying literally makes no sense.I'll never get how Oliver taking Thea to the LP,a thing that had nothing to do with Laurel  is the same as Laurel using his traumatized sister to gain access to the LP and putting Thea in danger by doing that.Nothing Oliver did with the LP put Laurel or anyone she loves in danger,the most it did was make her upset about being out of the loop but he has no obligation to tell her.She put his only family in danger and didn't tell him because he would have been against it. He had every right to blame her,nothing about it was hypocritical imo.

And the funniest part is her accusing him of not telling her he's the arrow and Oliver having to tell her to keep her voice down.Like they even give us an example of why she shouldn't been told,she'll yell about it in public lol

Edited June 8, 2017 by tangerine95

[ladylaw99]

Gosh another scene that once again shows me why I hated these two together and why her love of my life bs was so left wing. I am an intelligent person but I swear this relationship/friendship, whatever you want to call it makes me feel dumber than rocks.

[statsgirl]

That scene was just the cherry on the top of the awfulness that had been the Oliver/Laurel relationship for four seasons.  It was Laurel being Me! Me! Me! and blaming him for not caring about her enough when she had used his sister to get what she wanted.   And loudly proclaiming their secret identities in the middle of the hospital while complaining he didn't tell her his secrets.

Ironically, I read a lot of comments saying that Oliver very  much deserved the put-down because he hadn't been treating Laurel right and good for her because now he will accept her as his equal.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think tough love probably means different things to different people.  It's tough love in that Oliver's behavior previously hadn't been healthy for either of them and by ending that unhealthy pattern, they both were free to move forward.  It wasn't Oliver making a calculated choice to act a certain way out of love in the hopes that she'd seek help, but it was IMO him realizing that what he had been doing wasn't working.  And he took himself out of the equation.  He was I'm sure happy when she did take personal responsibility after their argument and we saw in season three that he still cared very much and wanted her safe, but he was done babying her or mincing his words around her.

Yeah.  It was Oliver realizing that all the worrying and protecting of Laurel that he thought he was doing wasn't really helping her and really he didn't know how to help her.  He did what he did to save himself but it also gave her the push to start saving herself.

We complain a lot about how this show doesn't do enough to show the POVs of people other than Oliver and in this case they could have done more with Laurel's but didn't.  We spent 14 episodes on her addiction, and then suddenly it was turned around and she and Oliver talked offscreen.

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Sure, Ra's removed her.  He wanted her out of the line of fire.  My overall take on Ra's is that he was a guy with incomplete information fighting for his daughter's life against Time itself.

He stopped Nyssa from avenging Sara because he knew she'd be back.

I think overall that Season Two Sara, whether she thought she was using Nyssa or not, is still the person who invited Oliver Queen to a private family dinner to let slip to Laurel "Hey guys, Oliver and I are fucking again."

We see Ra's so differently.  I saw him as stopping Nyssa from avenging Sara because he barely tolerated their relationship and was glad to have the opportunity for Nyssa to stop being so weak.  Ra's thought that affection was a weakness -- he forced Nyssa's mother to be his concubine and while he originally joined the League to save his family, he was fine with killing his entire village later.  Nyssa in a relationship with Sara was even worse.

Talia said Ra's was never going to let a woman take over and so she left to start her own league. I agree with @BkWurm1 that Ra's was only using Nyssa as bait to catch the man he wanted to be the real one to take over after him.

I don't think that Sara took Oliver to the family dinner to rub Laurel's nose in the fact that she was sleeping with him.  I think she took him for a kind of protection, a sympathetic friend during a difficult family dinner.  Laurel had always been the dominant one in their relationship and when last seen, was so angry at Sara for being alive that she was throwing glasses of wine around.  It may seem strange that a skilled assassin would want a friend around but with families, people often get thrust back into their childhood roles and Sara was emotionally vulnerable already.  (And the real reason was For Plot so that Oliver and Laurel could have that hallway scene.

[leopardprint]

Oliver should never have gone to a reconciliation dinner, regardless of his intentions, for a family where he was the catalyst for a lot of the damage. It goes to show that Oliver + any other women but Felicity makes terrible decisions. Though, I choose to believe that he only went to that dinner because Felicity kicked him out of the lair.

In conclusion, Oliver needs to work on his judgement versus doing whatever his current GF or babymama wants him to do, unless it's Felicity, then he should definitely listen to her. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Oliver should never have gone to a reconciliation dinner, regardless of his intentions, for a family where he was the catalyst for a lot of the damage. It goes to show that Oliver + any other women but Felicity makes terrible decisions. Though, I choose to believe that he only went to that dinner because Felicity kicked him out of the lair.

In conclusion, Oliver needs to work on his judgement versus doing whatever his current GF or babymama wants him to do, unless it's Felicity, then he should definitely listen to her. 

Oliver should just always ask Felicity what he should do. 

I kid, but only mostly. 

[statsgirl]

But he did ask, indirectly.  He was almost desperate for Felicity to give him a reason why he had to skip the dinner. She was too caught up in her feelings of insecurity about both Sara and the Clockmaker to pick up on it.

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

But he did ask, indirectly.  He was almost desperate for Felicity to give him a reason why he had to skip the dinner. She was too caught up in her feelings of insecurity about both Sara and the Clockmaker to pick up on it.

Sigh, yep, bad things happen with mom and dad are not on the same page.  

[EmilyBettFan]

When I started watching Arrow I could tell that those two were not meant for each other just by the looks she was giving him. She just had a constant stank bitchy face towards him and his team.

[tennisgurl]

The most I ever got from Laurel and Oliver was friendship and a certain amount of "What could have been" wistfulness. Even when they were being set up as the shows OTP, they seemed to not really like being around each other. Like, ever. Oliver felt guilty whenever he saw Laurel, and Laurel was clearly still pissed off at Oliver. As the show went on, they went from being rather "meh" on each other, to Laurel hating Oliver (he never really had bad feelings for her, even when he probably should have) to the two of them becoming friends and comrades at arms. I think at their nicest moments, they had some warm memories of their romance, but I never felt like they were each others One. That's why Laurel announcing that Oliver was the love of her life was so random. I just never got that vibe from them, even in flashbacks when they were together, or when they were on Team Arrow and getting along. If anything, I thought Laurel was always rather hung up on Tommy, and pre-Felicity, Sara was Oliver's One that Got Away*. Even in the flashbacks, wasn't it implied that Laurel hooked up with Oliver at first to spite Sara? At least somewhat?

*I mean that she was his One that Got Away before she came back to Star City after her League time, and they hooked up again. These days, they're just really good friends who really understand each other on a gut level. I cant ever imagine them becoming a romantic thing again.

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

But he did ask, indirectly.  He was almost desperate for Felicity to give him a reason why he had to skip the dinner. She was too caught up in her feelings of insecurity about both Sara and the Clockmaker to pick up on it.

It isn't Felicity's job to protect him from his terrible romantic decisions even if she would probably do a better job than him. Also, Oliver was super jerky in that episode so I'm not sure he deserved her help at that time. 

If he needs someone to tell him not to attend his girlfriend's family dinner shortly after revealing she's back from the dead to her sister, who he was dating at the time of said death caused by inviting her on an illicit sex cruise which then caused the breakup of her parent's marriage then maybe he has always been as dumb as portrayed in S5. ?

Edited June 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

We complain a lot about how this show doesn't do enough to show the POVs of people other than Oliver and in this case they could have done more with Laurel's but didn't. 

To be completely honest, personally I am extremely grateful we didn't. I was sick of Laurel by that point and her me-me-me attitude for almost 40 episodes until that point, and I'm happy to have been spared of sitting through more of her.

[Hiveminder]

8 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

It isn't Felicity's job to protect him from his terrible romantic decisions even if she would probably do a better job than him. Also, Oliver was super jerky in that episode so I'm not sure he deserved her help at that time. 

If he needs someone to tell him not to attend his girlfriend's family dinner shortly after revealing she's back from the dead to her sister, who he was dating at the time of said death caused by inviting her on an illicit sex cruise which then caused the breakup of her parent's marriage then maybe he has always been as dumb as portrayed in S5. ?

I think Oliver was pretty clearly looking for an excuse to not go, not asking Felicity if he should. I'm pretty sure Oliver knew it wasn't a great idea, but he went because Sara asked. He should have told her it was a bad idea and he wasn't going, but Oliver does a lot of things he shouldn't because of women. That's basically the show. 

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I think Oliver was pretty clearly looking for an excuse to not go, not asking Felicity if he should.

Sorry, it wasn't clear, I don't think he should have looked to Felicity to provide him a reason. He could have outright told Sara it was a horrible idea but Sara, even moreso, should have known not to bring Oliver to that dinner as well. But yes, Oliver doing stupid things because of some woman he's with or was with is consistent across all 5 seasons except Felicity who gets to be the victim of said stupid things. 

Sara and Oliver were just unusually jerky that whole episode. 

[statsgirl]

9 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Sara and Oliver were just unusually jerky that whole episode. 

Yeah, they were, especially Oliver.  I could fanwank it that they were so worried about Slade but he hadn't revealed himself yet.  At least Diggle was aware of what was going on.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Sara and Oliver were just unusually jerky that whole episode. 

I still lean toward stupid and thoughtless than any purposely intended jerky behavior during dinner.  Both seemed to think they could pretend nothing else was going on and while awkward, Oliver crashing family dinner as a friend was accepted.  If they'd maintained their cover, only Laurel would have been the jerk, mocking her father's feelings and dreams.

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

At least Diggle was aware of what was going on.

Yep. Remember when Felicity and Diggle were friends on-screen? 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

We see Ra's so differently.  I saw him as stopping Nyssa from avenging Sara because he barely tolerated their relationship and was glad to have the opportunity for Nyssa to stop being so weak.  Ra's thought that affection was a weakness -- he forced Nyssa's mother to be his concubine and while he originally joined the League to save his family, he was fine with killing his entire village later.  Nyssa in a relationship with Sara was even worse.

Talia said Ra's was never going to let a woman take over and so she left to start her own league. I agree with @BkWurm1 that Ra's was only using Nyssa as bait to catch the man he wanted to be the real one to take over after him.

I don't think that Sara took Oliver to the family dinner to rub Laurel's nose in the fact that she was sleeping with him.  I think she took him for a kind of protection, a sympathetic friend during a difficult family dinner.  Laurel had always been the dominant one in their relationship and when last seen, was so angry at Sara for being alive that she was throwing glasses of wine around.  It may seem strange that a skilled assassin would want a friend around but with families, people often get thrust back into their childhood roles and Sara was emotionally vulnerable already.  (And the real reason was For Plot so that Oliver and Laurel could have that hallway scene.

I suppose part of it is that with the LoT episode they saved the best version of Ra's for last.  I never saw Ra's believing that affection was a weakness.  He had no problem showering it on his two daughters as children and, in different, but still non-romantic way, on Sara in the 60s.  I believe he did consider affection and love as points of vulnerability, but one worth tolerating for the sake of happiness.  His point of view could likely be summed up with "Guard your heart carefully and do not give it someone unworthy of you."  That viewpoint was also shown in his talk with Felicity in 320 where he urged her to take the time to give and receive a proper farewell from the one who loved her.  That doesn't strike me as someone one holds love and affection in contempt.  Aside from which Nyssa held the title of Heir to the Demon during her relationship with Sara.  I have no trouble believing that Ra's loved Nyssa wholeheartedly and accepted her, including her sexual preference completely.  His decision to strip her of being the Heir and forcing her to marry Oliver where his way of saving her life.

Now, that all said, I don't believe that Ra's was ever one of "the good guys" even a little bit.  Even if he was trying to save Nyssa, he was still willing to murder an entire city full of other people's children.  He was obsessed with his plan to get his way, whether that was saving Nyssa or recruiting Oliver and was willfully blind to all other possibilities.  Ra's wanted what he wanted the way he wanted and even his daughter's wishes were irrelevant to him in the face of that.  Recognizing that Ra's was capable of compassion, love, honor and decency doesn't make what he did better.  It makes it worse.  The fact that there were better angels in his nature means he ultimately chose to reject those better qualities to pursue a path of evil and destruction.  It makes Ra's not simply villainous but truly tragic.

As far as Talia is concerned, maybe it wasn't that Ra's wouldn't let a woman lead the League so much as he didn't want her to lead the League.  After all, Talia did ultimately give herself over to be an instrument of Adrian Chase (extremely convoluted) revenge plan.  I suspect that if the situations were reversed and Oliver had slain Talia with Ra's left alive, Ra's would eventually have tracked Oliver down, challenged him and killed him or been killed in the process.  Assuming Chase had found Ra's prior to that and put forth his plan of vengeance, Ra's would likely have recognized Chase's obsessive psychopathy for what it was and summarily executed him, thus fulfilling the League's stated mandate of making the world better by ridding it of evildoers, which Chase certainly was.

Edited June 8, 2017 by johntfs

[BkWurm1]

31 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I suppose part of it is that with the LoT episode they saved the best version of Ra's for last.  I never saw Ra's believing that affection was a weakness.  He had no problem showering it on his two daughters as children and, in different, but still non-romantic way, on Sara in the 60s.  I believe he did consider affection and love as points of vulnerability, but one worth tolerating for the sake of happiness.  His point of view could likely be summed up with "Guard your heart carefully and do not give it someone unworthy of you."  That viewpoint was also shown in his talk with Felicity in 320 where he urged her to take the time to give and receive a proper farewell from the one who loved her.  That doesn't strike me as someone one holds love and affection in contempt.  Aside from which Nyssa held the title of Heir to the Demon during her relationship with Sara.  I have no trouble believing that Ra's loved Nyssa wholeheartedly and accepted her, including her sexual preference completely.  His decision to strip her of being the Heir and forcing her to marry Oliver where his way of saving her life.

Now, that all said, I don't believe that Ra's was ever one of "the good guys" even a little bit.  Even if he was trying to save Nyssa, he was still willing to murder an entire city full of other people's children.  He was obsessed with his plan to get his way, whether that was saving Nyssa or recruiting Oliver and was willfully blind to all other possibilities.  Ra's wanted what he wanted the way he wanted and even his daughter's wishes were irrelevant to him in the face of that.  Recognizing that Ra's was capable of compassion, love, honor and decency doesn't make what he did better.  It makes it worse.  The fact that there were better angels in his nature means he ultimately chose to reject those better qualities to pursue a path of evil and destruction.  It makes Ra's not simply villainous but truly tragic.

As far as Talia is concerned, maybe it wasn't that Ra's wouldn't let a woman lead the League so much as he didn't want her to lead the League.  After all, Talia did ultimately give herself over to be an instrument of Adrian Chase (extremely convoluted) revenge plan.  I suspect that if the situations were reversed and Oliver had slain Talia with Ra's left alive, Ra's would eventually have tracked Oliver down, challenged him and killed him or been killed in the process.  Assuming Chase had found Ra's prior to that and put forth his plan of vengeance, Ra's would likely have recognized Chase's obsessive psychopathy for what it was and summarily executed him, thus fulfilling the League's stated mandate of making the world better by ridding it of evildoers, which Chase certainly was.

I'm bowing out.  Agree to disagree about everything except Ra's never being a good guy.  

Edited June 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ladylaw99]

I'm sorry but there is no way you can convince me that a father makes his daughter marry someone she doesn't want to and imply she will bare his child whether she likes it or not is love.  That is a piece of property that you feel you have the right to do with it as you please, not the love of a father.

[leopardprint]

55 minutes ago, johntfs said:

His decision to strip her of being the Heir and forcing her to marry Oliver where his way of saving her life.

Do you happen to remember in which episode he says this? 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, leopardprint said:

Do you happen to remember in which episode he says this? 

It's been quite some time, so no, but I figure it almost has to be 320 or 321, with maybe 322, though I think Oliver had throw off the pretense by then.

[leopardprint]

In 321 doesn't RAG send Oliver to drag Nyssa back to Nanda Parbat to kill her but then Oliver doesn't so RAG says they'll get married regardless of Nyssa's wishes, she says she'd rather die. 

In 322, he says if she can't be happy as wife, she'll be happy as a mother and that her job is to bend to his will, when again she says she would rather die than marry Oliver. 

In 323, he leaves her to die in a crashing plane.

I can't find any Arrow contextual evidence that RAG was forcing Nyssa to marry Oliver to save her life since he was the primary one who wanted to kill her. Perhaps comic RAG had a similar story? 

Though Arrow does love to talk about how much terrible fathers who treat their daughters terribly are so awesome, so maybe I just can't find it. 

I am 100% certain that Nyssa was forced to marry Oliver so the EPs could continue to make gross haha lesbian married a heterosexual jokes. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

Episode 321:

Quote

 

Ra's:  You know, as a young child, Nyssa displayed the panache of a thief. Always stealing extra atayef at her meals and then stowing them away in her quarters. She would grow to learn that there is nothing she can hide from me. Her exploits of late... seem to have clouded that memory.

Nyssa:  I will remember you as the warrior you once were and not as this shell that stands before me. All my life, I've lived in fear of you. But now, as I stand before you ready to leave this earth, I want you to know-- I am not afraid.

Ra's:  Do what needs to be done, my heir. And take with it the satisfaction that your reign will be unchallenged. I can see now, you do not require a culling to solidify your reign. You have broken your rival, Al Sah-him. Something I was unable to do as an heir. Spilling her blood now would only serve as gluttony. Now, perhaps... her blood could be of another purpose. As a means to unite our families. You as husband... and you as wife.

Nyssa:  I would rather die than become his betrothed.

Ra's:  Well, your wishes were no longer my concern from the moment you betrayed me. So you will marry Al Sah-him. And you will become bride of the Demon.

 

That sounds to me not like Ra's was trying to save Nyssa but that he was ready to kill her, or have Al Sah-him kill her.

Episode 322:

Quote

 

Ra's :  You speak to me as though I'm a monster. I'm your father, Nyssa.

Nyssa:  Then why do you ask me to marry someone I do not love?

Ra's:  When I was in a desert tending to some affairs, I crossed paths with a woman. She was breathtaking in her visage and fortitude. Her name was Ameena Raatko. I had taken other lovers before, but she was different. She had a wit and a fire about her that I found myself I could not live without. So she became my concubine and the mother of my child. This was my gift to her in honor of you. A gift that she gave me. And so I kept it in the hopes that one day, you would wear it on your wedding day.

Nysssa:  You expect me to marry Al Sah-him because of some trinket?

Ra's:  I expect you to marry Al Sah-him because it is my will. You defy that, and I will see you suffer the pain of a thousand deaths.

......

Ra's:  You will marry my daughter, and you will ascend to Ra's al Ghul, and then you will fly to Starling City carrying death itself.

There is talk in eps 320 - 322 about before you ascend to Ra's, you have to kill your rivals.  That's why Nyssa went to Starling City, because with Al Sah-him as heir, he was going to kill her.

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by statsgirl

[Mellowyellow]

Soooo I just watched 320 and 520 and had a revelation.

Is the one leg lift/monkey climb during the sex scenes their thing now? It's sooo cute!!!!!!!!!

[ladylaw99]

That and SA grabbing EBR ass. Ha!

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

That and SA grabbing EBR ass. Ha!

To be fair he stops halfway both times! It's like he suddenly realises "Oh yeah, probably shouldn't grab her ass."

[ladylaw99]

Maybe now with 9:00 pm time slot he will go all the way. Let's face it he likes her ass, I wish I had her ass.

[Mellowyellow]

Her ass is very nice but her tummy is amazing! So smooth and flat without the muscle lumps. Those tight pants in 520 without even a hint of a muffin top! 

[ladylaw99]

Agree on the tummy.  She really does have a great body but she also puts a lot of work into it. So can we really blame SA?

[tv echo]

Flashback Monday - here are the two O/F scenes from 1x03 that gave birth to the Olicity ship (videos courtesy of Olicity Queen)...

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I watched the Magic scene before bed last night after seeing these two scenes.

I was too grumpy to enjoy it when it aired but now *swooooooooon*

Ha I liked that the writers are now implying he's always had a thing for Felicity.

[lemotomato]

I think Stephen had a thing for Felicity the character before Oliver ever did. If you watch the late season 1 interviews he talked her up all the time. 

I love those 1x03 scenes. It's really hard to believe now that Felicity was meant to be just a guest star/Easter egg reference.

[statsgirl]

8 hours ago, Spin85 said:

Have yet to watch Season 5. Got busy with work. Reading the previous posts made me realize that I really have to start watching it again. 

Keep your expectations low for the first half of the season.  Lots of good stuff by 5x19 though.

 

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I think Stephen had a thing for Felicity the character before Oliver ever did. If you watch the late season 1 interviews he talked her up all the time. 

I love those 1x03 scenes. It's really hard to believe now that Felicity was meant to be just a guest star/Easter egg reference.

Maybe he was excited to have her as Oliver's love interest.

This blog argues that while Felicity was an easter egg, she was also an audition for an Oliver OTP after they realized Laurel wasn't going to work, just as Helena and McKenna were..  She makes a lot of sense.

Quote

They knew. They knew before anyone else. That’s why so many contingency LIs were written and cast. Because they knew they had a problem…they just weren’t quite sure what the solution was, but the ball was rolling and they didn’t have the time and money to reshoot the pilot, plus CW wasn’t ready to blame KC yet. But they also didn’t have the time to launch a really careful rework and chem test numerous actresses with Stephen to try to find the right one.  [snip]

And isn’t it lucky for the prods that without even TRYING, they cast a young woman who as it turns out can play the type (warm, kind, the sort who actually would sustain a man during five years in hell) Oliver’s LI was supposed to be? And wow, without even INTENDING to they totally wrote one of the five greatest romantic comedy meet-cute scenes in tv history for this “one off” character who happened to get cast with a funny, dazzling actress of great warmth and ridiculous beauty? And OMG! The third ep! Their FIRST TRY, they hit on EBR! [snip]

Bullshit they only created Felicity because focus groups criticized the tech gap. Bullshit their casting notice and discussions with Rappaport didn’t indicate potential LI for Oliver. Bullshit Stephen didn’t know he was working with a potential LI. And bullshit that they didn’t know EXACTLY what they had with them the moment they saw it.

The three EPs are the writers of 103. They wrote that meet-cute as a meet-cute. They picked Emily from a tape as the best potential LOVE INTEREST. 

Am I saying they had already made their choice? No. Helena and McKenna were both in the works, also contingencies. But absolutely by the time they put together 108, they knew where they were going. 103 aired 24 October. Pre-prod on Vertigo began 5 November. 103 airing meant critics and audiences confirmed for them what they already knew. It gave them the final word they needed to make that very meaningful cut from Diggle’s “right fit” speech to Felicity.

[lemotomato]

It's a plausible theory. I just find it hard to believe that they'd hire a newbie actress as a potential love interest without chem testing her with SA first, since they'd already made that mistake with KC. I definitely believe that they decided EBR/Felicity was going to be a potential love interest after seeing the dailies of that scene (which might as well be considered an unofficial chem test between EBR and SA) 

[statsgirl]

Yeah, that seems like a likely scenario.  They may not have had time to chem test her with SA in a formal chem test because they were busy shooting the show (SA may not have had time to fly down for a chem test) so they thought they would use those two small scenes as an on-screen chem test on Rappaport's recommendation that she was a possible.  After all, he'd got SA for them, and DR.  Also makes sense in terms of telling EBR that the character was potentially recurring.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think that theory's been debunked by folks on this forum who are in the know. 

[insomniadreams88]

I wonder if they were testing the "meet cute" scenario for a LI for Oliver. They just so happened to succeed with both the scene and the actress. 

[LeighAn]

I use to think 1x03 was written as a meet cute intentionally but the way the 1x03 scene was written had Felicity playing the fawning fan girl while Oliver was written to be Oliver playing a role of the dazzling billionaire. Based on that I can see it as them writing the scene intending to be a one off. The way Stephen and Emily played the scene was very different and made it a meet cute which I think lead them from then on to write Olicitys scenes intentionally as a series of meet cutes bordering on flirty to develop a romantic bond down the line.

[statsgirl]

I can easily believe that AK and MB thought that the girl calling Oliver on his lies but still utterly smitten by playboy Oliver was a meet cute.  They've made missteps like that often.  Look at the hot/cold with Laurel in the pilot episode.

EBR and SA just made the scene better than what was written on the page, as they have been doing ever since.

[Featherhat]

Hmm, I've read that post before and whilst it's persuasive, I can't buy it completely.  I do think they knew they had a problem with L/O on their hands in the pilot but I'm not sure I believe they also brought Felicity on before 1.03 was shot with the intention of positioning her as replacement LI. I definitely think they knew they might have something immediately *after* it was shot and the way SA plays the scene he definitely knows they've got something there, in direct contrast to LL. But a day player with little experience who didn't have a chem test isn't usually what they'd hang their hat on as a replacement, except that it really worked, once in a blue moon those stories do happen (similar thing happened with David Nykl who plays Anatoly with Stargate Atlantis).

I definitely think Helena was part of an attempt to search around for a possible replacement, but although I think she's entertainingly crazy and moves plot along, she didn't have exactly amazing chemistry with SA in her first episode either (by her last they'd established a rapport, albeit they still wouldn't work longterm). In some ways Helena is actually a prototype for Sara, someone whom he was desperate to save, feels guilty about and wants to prove that it means he himself can change. Except he and Sara had a much more complex history. I like McKenna fine but I doubt she was ever more than a temp love interest, they liked each other and had fun but there wasn't much more than that and she was a cop who was on the anti Vigilante task force.

It's definitely interesting to read again though.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Featherhat

[statsgirl]

I agree that Helena and McKenna were more directed attempts to find a new LI for Oliver.  Both of those characters were written for multi-episode arcs and played by actresses with more credits than EBR had.  Helena was tailored so that she could be redeemed over the season, and McKenna was written so that she could be against The Hood for much of the season and gradually brought into the fold should either one click with Oliver.

But I can see that Felicity as a character was a potential LI in a'"spaghetti thrown at the wall' just in case she stuck. And she did, so the arcs for the other two were tied up and ended.

If Felicity/EBR hadn't made the connection she did, I imagine that either the EPs would have kept auditioning other random female characters or settled on either Helena or McKenna.

[Hiveminder]

I think it's entirely possible that they were paying attention to every female character in hopes that one would be their new LI. 

[johntfs]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But I can see that Felicity as a character was a potential LI in a'"spaghetti thrown at the wall' just in case she stuck. And she did, so the arcs for the other two were tied up and ended.

If Felicity/EBR hadn't made the connection she did, I imagine that either the EPs would have kept auditioning other random female characters or settled on either Helena or McKenna.

I think Emily Bett Rickards was still accidental spaghetti that happened to stick to the wall.  I don't know, but I suspect that they reshot the first part of the first scene to give Felicity an actual name.  Probably the initial dialogue was something like Oliver:  Hi, I'm Oliver, I called about my computer...  Then, after the scene was shot and everybody realized something interesting was happening, they decided to give "Cute IT girl" an actual name.

For me the best part was the way Emily conveyed the idea of "You're BSing me about this computer.  I know that you're BSing me about this computer.  However, as long as you know that I know you're BSing me, and because you're the boss's kid, I'll deal with your computer without busting your balls over it."  That was likely different than the hero-worshipping fangirl they figured, but since she was a day-player anyway, they probably didn't give a huge amount of attention to directing her in the scene, so she had a little more freedom to define her character, such as it was at that point.

Once the showrunners and executives realized they possibly had something, figure they decided to bring her back again, probably to see if it was a fluke.  It wasn't.  So they dropped her into a mini-arc with Walter, figuring if something soured or otherwise stopped working, she could easily be killed off.  Emily kept delivering so they put her in as a "temporary" member of Team Arrow (remember, initially Felicity was only going along with the "Hood" stuff until they rescued Walter).  Ultimately, they fully accepted that they'd struck character gold and the rest is history.

[Starfish35]

Yeah I totally believe it was completely a happy accident.  I'm not sure I believe that she didn't have a name - I can totally believe they'd throw in "Felicity Smoak" as an Easter Egg for the comics.  Kind of like they had Laurel give a throwaway reference to "Ray and Jean" in that flashback scene where she's trying to talk Oliver into them getting a place together.

[lemotomato]

"Felicity Smoak" was named in the script, but it's true that as written, Oliver doesn't actually say her name out loud. From the way the scene played out, it could have been added via ADR after it was shot, or ad libbed by SA if they did a couple different takes of the scene. Considering the glowing way he describes filming the scene with EBR, it's likely he knew right then that there was potential to keep Felicity around or expand her role.

Edited June 21, 2017 by lemotomato

[johntfs]

It's interesting to see the shooting script and the way the scene slightly diverges from it.  While she does babble some, Felicity doesn't really come off as a social misfit.  She also doesn't come off as smitten, either.  I stand by my earlier idea that Felicity's thinking.  "Yes, you're a modern Adonis, but you're BSing me.  I know you're BSing.  Hopefully you know that I know you're BSing.  But it'll be easier to do this thing for you that try to dig out whatever it is you're BSing me about."

[Morrigan2575]

I think that scene, as written would have sucked. I like that EBR and SA played the scene the way they did, that's where the happy accident/chemistry comes into play.