Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

The fact that they almost got married doesn't bother me because lots of people almost get married and walk away in time but SA, EBR and the writers really sold they were each other's everything, from the end of s3 until 5x09.    If they don't intend to have Oliciy endgame, that was a huge mistake because no other relationship for either of them will be as effective.

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I was looking for an Olicity scene on YouTube so I looked up OlicityQueens account and its shocking looking at the view counts. After the break up, they started decreasing until they just fall off dramatically. Esp between S4 and S5. I can't help but think Arrow shot themselves in the foot. IMO they convinced the fandom that this isn't your normal TV ship. Cause normal TV ships don't have the hero fall in love slowly with the unexpected fan-favorite (destorying their set endgame in the progress). Don't have the hero make this realization and remain in love and celibate for a season. Don't have the couple get together and be perfect - communicate, work thru their problems and be sexy and fun and healthy.  Don't have them get engaged and be prepared to walk down the aisle. Sure, they introduced the lie and the kid but they also set them up to get thru it. But they didn't. They went for the standard They-got-break-up-at-least-once in the worst way possible. In a way that twisted characterization and insulted everything they set up. 

I think the problem is that it turned out the way Olicity was written in 4A was the exception, rather than the rule. Everything before and after that string of episodes was the same tropes a typical TV ship went through. At this point, season 5 looks like it's rehashing the major romantic beats of season 3, just with Oliver and Felicity switching places. Of course it's insulting and frustrating to have to watch it all over again, especially since I hated it the first time around, and now it's even worse after we saw how great Olicity could be in 4A. But it's also why I don't think the ship is dead on the show. I don't even think they'll finish the season without a reconciliation of some sort. 

Olicity fandom, though, is never going to be as it was before this season started. I don't think There's anything the show can do now that will convince a significant part of fandom to give them another chance after burning them so badly this season.

[insomniadreams88]

Honestly? I think I might just be grateful they didn't decide to use Flashpoint to erase Olicity's relationship. They easily could have. And I'm going to take it as a positive sign that they didn't. 

[MaisyDaisy]

I would love to know if the person who gave the order for the change in direction, writing away from Olicity, new LI, 5a having Felicity in her comic relief box and the pushing of Saint LL, is facing the fact that the show rather spectacularly fell in ratings since that happened.

i wonder if the reddit crowd have conversations about how crap the ratings are now they have a show they love?

I know lots of LL stans have left reddit in disgust over how DD was accepted positively.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I know lots of LL stans have left reddit in disgust over how DD was accepted positively.

LOL, I have no clue re how they're surprised. Poor Apple. Always, always, always failing to understand the popular zeitgeist.

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Honestly? I think I might just be grateful they didn't decide to use Flashpoint to erase Olicity's relationship. They easily could have. And I'm going to take it as a positive sign that they didn't. 

I personally would not ascribe that level of planning to them.

[kismet]

I would have hated Flashpoint erasing Olicity. But I actually think I might have preferred it to what they did. Because instead of becoming apathetic to their interactions through their actual interactions, I would be looking at the breadcrumbs to lead to their destined reunion. It would have been like s3, where I hung on every little bit of hope that they would get together. Because even if timeline accidentally erased the relationship, it didn't erase their connection. Instead, the writers basically have erased the relationship. I can't even blame it on Barry. I'm watching them act like polite strangers and robots around each other. And even worse there is rando LIs to dull any momentum I actually may feel. Because for every breadcrumb there is the big clump of Mayo & reporter.

Sidenote - I think erasing Olicity would have been a better choice than erasing Sara Diggle. FTR, both are horrible decisions. But erasing Sara Diggle was a seriously wrong decision.

[lemotomato]

23 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

i wonder if the reddit crowd have conversations about how crap the ratings are now they have a show they love?

They're blaming season 3-4 for the low ratings now. 

[Mellowyellow]

35 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

They're blaming season 3-4 for the low ratings now. 

Didn't S3 get really good ratings?

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Didn't S3 get really good ratings?

It did. As did most of season 4. I don't understand their logic, but, that's reddit for you.

[kismet]

Alternative facts are real to some people.

[AyChihuahua]

40 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Didn't S3 get really good ratings?

YES, and I know this because I hated loathed and despised S3, and could not understand why ratings remained stable. 

But...THEY DID.

[statsgirl]

11 hours ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I would love to know if the person who gave the order for the change in direction, writing away from Olicity, new LI, 5a having Felicity in her comic relief box and the pushing of Saint LL, is facing the fact that the show rather spectacularly fell in ratings since that happened.

i wonder if the reddit crowd have conversations about how crap the ratings are now they have a show they love?

I'd say they're looking at the fact that it's a five year old show and that all of the Arrowverse shows are down, and ascribing it to that. There may be niggling doubts or even conversations between one or two people but nothing in writing or said loudly.  And GB is probably too busy with his many shows to notice

I don't think that those reddit posters have the level of analytic complexity to actually analyze why ratings are lower as opposed to complaining and just taking it for granted that they are right.

11 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Honestly? I think I might just be grateful they didn't decide to use Flashpoint to erase Olicity's relationship. They easily could have. And I'm going to take it as a positive sign that they didn't. 

I don't think they would have erased it entirely because it's too important a part of the show, just as Oliver's feelings for Laurel are, but they could have downplayed it into a lesser old dating relationship rather than have Oliver spend 5 episodes hoping to get back together with her. So I'm going to take it as a positive sign too.

Edited February 12, 2017 by statsgirl

[theOAfc]

17 hours ago, kismet said:

They have done a pretty good job on the dismantling part. And not having enough time to properly do something has never stopped them before. And I do believe there is a good chance that OQ may die at the end of the series. So who he ends up with may not even matter.

Your point is valid if the writers care about quality and execution. 5 seasons of "for plot" TV has proven that they don't always care about that. I want your point to be accurate, because I want a better show. I just accept that at face value some things are more important to the writers than quality storytelling.

I agree with everything and i also think Oliver dies at the end. I think they are gonna do the OQ/DD romance even if it happens towards the end of s6 or start of s7. They can have them be together and still ship bait Olicity fans,or put Olicity scenes that may indicate they still have feelings for each other. Eventually like you said,him dying means he ends up with noone and that way comic purists can have their "epic" comic canon romance while Olicity fans can stick to their Olicity is the real endgame perception. CW shows often ship bait.

[theOAfc]

12 hours ago, Chaser said:

I was looking for an Olicity scene on YouTube so I looked up OlicityQueens account and its shocking looking at the view counts. After the break up, they started decreasing until they just fall off dramatically. Esp between S4 and S5. I can't help but think Arrow shot themselves in the foot. 

Well i know i lost plenty of interest after 4x15 to the point that i forced myself to watch the s4 finale just so i could say i finished the season. I didnt get mad,i just felt like it was a huge turn off, to the point that left me apathetic towards something i was passionately rooting for,just episodes ago.

[theOAfc]

13 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Yeah, I fundamentally cannot continue believing they are each other's one true loves when they're so chill about it all. I broke up my my fiance years ago and I could barely stand to email with him afterwards bc of all the feelings, and he was an asshole. These two are so unbelievably casual with each other that it makes me kind of sick. One true love is simply not compatible with "meh." Apathy is the true opposite of love, and they have embraced apathy.

Totally. One of the arrow writers tried to defend them getting new LIs in such a short time by saying that he has a friend who broke up with her fiance and got happily married months later to someone else. The difference here is that Oliver and Felicity talk to each other like they werent almost married,they act as if they never even got romantically involved and at the same time they are completely chill about it to the point that i find it extremely fake forced and unbelievable. While i bet his friend doesnt even talk or mention her ex anymore.

Either Oliver and Felicity should had stopped interacting or be completely awkward with each other or they should have intense fights and actual talks about solving what happened betwen them or trying to somehow normally move on. We never saw the struggle. Instead we got a lame 5x05 stiff scene in which oliver talked to felicity as if he was the popular hot boy of the class politely turning down the nerd girl that has a crush on him. It was awful. And dont even get me started on felicity being so chill about the whole break up and even consolling him about his manpain as if he didnt break her heart just months ago. 

 

Say whatever you want about Felicity trying to be funny or cool in order to hide her feelings but unless the show presents her struggling when she is alone or not in the same room as Oliver,it just falls flat and shows her being completely over him . Also yikes at her comment about him and the new canary. Awful writing.

Edited February 12, 2017 by theOAfc

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Totally. One of the arrow writers tried to defend them getting new LIs in such a short time by saying that he has a friend who broke up with her fiance and got happily married months later to someone else.

I remember that. It's really such a bizarre analogy in many ways, including that that would indicate O/F are not each other's true loves, bc apparently they'd happily marry other people. 

[Featherhat]

12 hours ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I would love to know if the person who gave the order for the change in direction, writing away from Olicity, new LI, 5a having Felicity in her comic relief box and the pushing of Saint LL, is facing the fact that the show rather spectacularly fell in ratings since that happened.

i wonder if the reddit crowd have conversations about how crap the ratings are now they have a show they love?

I know lots of LL stans have left reddit in disgust over how DD was accepted positively.

I'm sure a lot will be back in a few weeks and claiming like the rest of Reddit that at least she isn't FS and bitching that the show is still "FnF" if Felicity is given more than 2 lines of dialogue and/or does anything that is more than quippy tech geek, although Diggle used to call Oliver out a lot when he was actually on the show and he and LL had an antagonistic relationship for the best part of 4 seasons before she died and became a saint.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I remember that. It's really such a bizarre analogy in many ways, including that that would indicate O/F are not each other's true loves, bc apparently they'd happily marry other people. 

Yes, that's what I get from that analogy as well. People marrying other people so soon after a broken engagement, generally means that the first engagement was probably not going to work out in the first place. The first engagement is not a love of your life engagement.

Then again, perhaps that writer was trying to tell us that s/he does not see O/F as true love of your life loves. Which honestly sometimes I could see them justifying if they don't get them back together. They could justify the world wind romance as just that a world wind romance. They got swept up in each other, rushed to an engagement. Life threw some curveballs, they broke up and realized they love each other but are not in love with each other.

They could do it. It wouldn't take much retconning or rewriting. But a few well worded moments and some solid new relationships and that's the gameball. Their official relationship was less than a year long. It was squeezed between two semi-serious relationships for FS. And OQ, well him diving head first into a relationship after a death scare and getting in over his head is just par for the course. It wouldn't take much. It's a bad choice, but the writers don't always make good choices.

I don't agree with that estimation or description of the O/F relationship. Honestly, I believe that the chemistry SA & EBR is conducive to a once in a lifetime love of your life. I think the way they set-up the relationship in s1-4a was written towards that. Then they went with BMD, a badly written break-up and double-downed on them being just work colleagues with a few pointed conversations. And I know that there are ship-stalls and BTS manipulations. I'm not a naive TV viewer. Just saying, it wouldn't take much for them to write O/F as a one-time past thing and not an ongoing love of your life relationship. I don't agree or want it. However, I could see the writers doing it without much effort or consternation on their part. They lose a block of fans and write a crap story, though I don't think they would be bothered by it. And they've already done it before, so precedent is set.

[Hiveminder]

They could do that, but it would be wasteful. Then again, they've already sort of wasted the opportunity the chemistry between EBR and SA gave them. They could have written the kind of relationship we rarely get to see on TV. Instead, someone was to blind or too scared, and they went with the same games they play with all TV relationships. 

[rtalive]

On 1/27/2017 at 6:48 PM, ComicFan777 said:

I don't think Felicity cared about Billy as much as you would think.  She cares about him probably as much as she cares about any of her friends.  I mean, she even had trouble calling him her boyfriend.  Billy was just a distraction from dealing with everything she has gone through.  

I think his death was simply the straw that broke the camel's back after a long string of bad things that happened to her because of villain manipulation.  

So Billy was just a casual sex for her, a distraction? Why she kept it a secret then? And isn't it unfair for him that she started dating him while she was emotionally unavailable? I still think that she was falling for him, but didn't want to admit it. The other confusing thing for me is - was Felicity jealous from fake Laurel? Does this mean she still have feelings for Oliver? Or she simply doesn't want him back, but does not want him to move on from her?

[insomniadreams88]

Am I the only one who finds it odd how Oliver and Felicity sleeping with their LIs has been portrayed this season? We had that 5x05 Felicity/Billy scene and then Oliver talking about sleeping with the reporter whose job is to cover his office in his office at City Hall and then that post-sex scene at the end of 5x12. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

12 minutes ago, rtalive said:

So Billy was just a casual sex for her, a distraction? Why she kept it a secret then? And isn't it unfair for him that she started dating him while she was emotionally unavailable? I still think that she was falling for him, but didn't want to admit it. The other confusing thing for me is - was Felicity jealous from fake Laurel? Does this mean she still have feelings for Oliver? Or she simply doesn't want him back, but does not want him to move on from her?

Why do you think she was jealous of fake Laurel? The problem there was that a villain was pretending to be their dead friend to kill them all and Oliver thought he could save her only because she looked like Laurel putting them all in danger in the process. She was mad at a villain for trying to use their feelings for their dead friend against them, not jealous of her.

About Billy I'm pretty sure he knew that their relationship wasn't that significant since she couldn't even call him her boyfriend in public and didn't want him to meet her friends. He didn't seem that dense to me. If he kept being with her either he thought with time she was going to be ready to take their relationship forward or it was fine for him too what they had. Not all men want to be in a committed relationship. Actually I'm pretty sure most men would be happy to just fool around for the time being.

[ComicFan777]

I think what Felicity had with Billy was basically friends with benefits.  She had trouble calling him her boyfriend.  She didn't even tell any of her friends about him.  He complained about not having met any of her friends.  She didn't really let him into her life.  Sure, she let him know that she worked with the Arrow so that she can stop lying to him, but that in itself isn't enough for me to think that she was remotely close to falling for him when she couldn't even call him her boyfriend.

I don't think that Felicity was jealous of fake Laurel.  I also think that Felicity was frustrated/irritated with Oliver having blinders on, especially right after Evelyn betrayed the team and Prometheus manipulated Oliver into killing Billy.

I think the writers have been trying to write barely-there romance for both Oliver and Felicity's LIs, so that the audience doesn't complain about Arrow being all soapy - they just show enough so that we know how the relationships have progressed.

Edited February 15, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah there really isn't anything romantic in Felicity's or Oliver's new relationships..I laughed when TVline wrote that Oliver and Susan "consummated their...whatever" but they have a point. They can call them boyfriend or girlfriend but in real life those relationships would be more casual dating/hook ups.

[catrox14]

On 2/12/2017 at 8:09 AM, statsgirl said:

I'd say they're looking at the fact that it's a five year old show and that all of the Arrowverse shows are down, and ascribing it to that. There may be niggling doubts or even conversations between one or two people but nothing in writing or said loudly.  And GB is probably too busy with his many shows to notice

I don't think that those reddit posters have the level of analytic complexity to actually analyze why ratings are lower as opposed to complaining and just taking it for granted that they are right.

I don't think they would have erased it entirely because it's too important a part of the show, just as Oliver's feelings for Laurel are, but they could have downplayed it into a lesser old dating relationship rather than have Oliver spend 5 episodes hoping to get back together with her. So I'm going to take it as a positive sign too.

Not even a Flashpoint erasure of Olicity could alter the chemistry between SA and EBR. It's too strong. Even before they became formal Olicity, those two idiots were making hearteyes at each other. Nothing can over come that.  Heh.  I wouldn't even particularly mind that erasure if it served to reconnect Oliver and Felicity and to have them end up together again anyway. #Destiny#OTP 

[DrSpaceman10]

In my opinion, Felicity was dating Billy 90% so Oliver could date other people and not look as bad, and 10% so Oliver could kill him. Despite what WM says, they didn't need DTH to kickstart Felicity's dark arc, the show's barely even referenced the guy since he died. Really, Diggle's arrest was what made her start down the dark path in the first place. 

If the show was staying true to the characters (ha), I don't think Oliver or Felicity would have dated anyone this season. Especially not Billy and Susan, one of whom was bland as fork and the other who is kind of evil. 

[thegirlsleuth]

At the time, I wondered if they downplayed Felicity's relationship with Detective Tiny Hands because they didn't want Felicity to be THAT upset when Oliver killed him.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

At the time, I wondered if they downplayed Felicity's relationship with Detective Tiny Hands because they didn't want Felicity to be THAT upset when Oliver killed him.

Yes. 

He had to be someone she cared enough about to feel guilty that he got in the crosshairs (even though he likely would've anyway-it seems as if he was targeted not as a cop, but as Felicity's boyfriend), but not enough that Oliver killing him would be an issue for the two of them. 

[Cleanqueen]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah there really isn't anything romantic in Felicity's or Oliver's new relationships..I laughed when TVline wrote that Oliver and Susan "consummated their...whatever" but they have a point. They can call them boyfriend or girlfriend but in real life those relationships would be more casual dating/hook ups.

Add to the fact that the characters themselves refused to call them their gf/bf. 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

In my opinion, Felicity was dating Billy 90% so Oliver could date other people and not look as bad, and 10% so Oliver could kill him. Despite what WM says, they didn't need DTH to kickstart Felicity's dark arc, the show's barely even referenced the guy since he died. Really, Diggle's arrest was what made her start down the dark path in the first place. 

If the show was staying true to the characters (ha), I don't think Oliver or Felicity would have dated anyone this season. Especially not Billy and Susan, one of whom was bland as fork and the other who is kind of evil. 

I don't think that Diggle's arrest was enough to start her down the dark path because there has been a ton of bad things in the past four years, including Havenrock, so it feels like Digg's arrest would have been just another thing so she really needed to care for Billy but yeah, Felicity was dating Billy so that Oliver could bang new women.

If I was going to fanwank it, Felicity was trying to move on from the broken engagement to the love of her life with a good guy but she couldn't.  She was trying, waiting to see if what she had with Billy was "real" i.e. she was trying to move on from Oliver in a real relationship but she couldn't. 

But at least Billy was a good guy.  Oliver looks like he's desperate for a relationship to trust Susan.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver looks like he's desperate for a relationship to trust Susan.

He really does. And it really seems to come down to HT telling him, "Hey, this woman's interested." Considering Oliver never seemed to see anything wrong with dating a reporter and forgot what she did to his sister I guess the moment episode 503 ended, would he have had the same reaction to any woman HT presented as an option? The way Oliver's written this season, HT maybe could've been like, "So, this Cupid got out of prison and seems interested..." Maybe Oliver would've drawn the line then?

[Chaser]

Human Target had to tell Oliver to date her. She had to stalk him. She had to tell him to sleep with her.

He is clearly into this relationship.

[Midnight Lullaby]

More than desperate for a relationship Oliver seems without any will to make decisions about his personal life. He moves forward because he has to, not because he wants to make a life for himself. She even had to push him to have sex and he is a guy! That's what gives me the doubt that he is faking it because I see no emotion whatsoever. Not even attraction that could justify dating casually because if he felt a significant physical attraction to her he would have wanted to have sex.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I can somewhat justify and understand Felicity dating Billy. I can see it as her trying to move on and distract herself from all the horrible stuff that happened and choosing someone normal and not complicated. Tho I still don't think a relationship would be what Felicity would chose to use as a distraction, using work seems more like her thing. They did imply that's what she did after Cooper faked his death. 

Oliver is the one I don't get at all. Like all I see as his reason for dating at all but especially dating Susan is him being lazy. She made every step in the relationship and she basically threw herself at him so it was zero effort I guess. Oliver in general seems like he's trying to deal with things differently but he's forcing it so it comes across fake and kinda desperate. Like wanting to find the good in everyone and trying to be optimistic by trying to redeem BS against all reason. Or trying to move on after the break up instead of believing he has to be alone but doing that with Susan even tho she's clearly shady, its an unprofessional relationship to be in, his sister hates her and he doesn't even seem to care much either. That would actually be interesting imo if that was what they were trying to do with Oliver but most likely it all comes down to he's doing it because plot. 

[AyChihuahua]

16 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

 Or trying to move on after the break up instead of believing he has to be alone... 

Oliver can be SO melodramatic. Going undercover  to take down the LOA becomes "I MUST SELL MY SOUL," and maybe staying single for awhile until he gets his shit together and gets the whole mayoring thing down becomes "IF I DO NOT DATE THIS WOMAN I WILL BE CHOOSING TO BE ALONE FOREVER."

[statsgirl]

39 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

He really does. And it really seems to come down to HT telling him, "Hey, this woman's interested." Considering Oliver never seemed to see anything wrong with dating a reporter and forgot what she did to his sister I guess the moment episode 503 ended, would he have had the same reaction to any woman HT presented as an option? The way Oliver's written this season, HT maybe could've been like, "So, this Cupid got out of prison and seems interested..." Maybe Oliver would've drawn the line then?

I'd go for Oliver/Cupid.  It would make more sense than Oliver/Susan because at least Cupid (thinks she) has genuine feelings for him.  And he's probably forgotten by now the people she killed last season.

Edited February 15, 2017 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'd go for Oliver/Cupid.  It would make more sense than Oliver/Susan because at least Cupid (thinks she) has genuine feelings for him.  And he's probably forgotten by now the people she killed last season.

All those hits to the head take a toll.

[kismet]

6 hours ago, rtalive said:

So Billy was just a casual sex for her, a distraction? Why she kept it a secret then? And isn't it unfair for him that she started dating him while she was emotionally unavailable? I still think that she was falling for him, but didn't want to admit it.

Relationships/hook ups like this happen all the time in real life. I was accidentally part of one of them before I let the guy go, after I figured it out. Sometimes people move on in different ways. Not everyone is emotionally available when they are in relationships and sleeping with people. I really think Billy was a casual relationship for her. I think he was a good friend, but the other aspects of a serious relationship were just not present, not on the show, not in the plot, not in the characterizations of F or B and not in the subtext. I don't think he would be considered her boyfriend, by her or other people. They were dating and sleeping with each other, people do that all time with or without emotional availability. Dating does not equal an actual legitimate "relationship".

4 hours ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

If the show was staying true to the characters (ha), I don't think Oliver or Felicity would have dated anyone this season. Especially not Billy and Susan, one of whom was bland as fork and the other who is kind of evil. 

A fork at least has pointy ends... I'm going with more of a spoon.

[statsgirl]

From the Starling Times thread:

27 minutes ago, Proteus said:

It's been a lot of things. For one I didn't like in season 3 how they went about the Ray/Felicity/Oliver mess. It felt like they wanted to turn the audience against Oliver and rub Felicity having a new relationship in his face just because he didn't reciprocate her feelings at first. The more the show pushed the bad Oliver angle to prop Ray and Felicity the more it made me turn against them.

Felicitys constant crossovers to Flash season 1 made me grow tired of her. Flash has a team of scientists yet Felicty always came on and was presented as better than them all.

I didn't like Felicitys attitude towards Oliver in season 3 when he decided he had to work with Merlin for the better good.

Then season 4 and the kid story happened. Once again they tried to make Oliver the bad guy. When a show so blatantly tries to turn me against one character to prop another, it has the opposite effect for me.

The wheel chair scene of walking out on him was the last straw for me. It was so over the top bad.

 

22 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Im pretty sure the script tried to make Oliver look like the poor guy instead of the bad guy in all those cases you described. Instead, it made him look like the dumb guy. He still got the "poor Ollie" treatment though by both script and fans.

BTW im gonna stop here cause i realise its the wrong thread. 

Yeah, I"m on the "poor poor Oliver plots" rather than trying to make him look like the bad guy.  Oliver was the one who said I love you, in episodes 3x01 and 3x09 long before Felicity said it in 3x20.  Poor Oliver loved Felicity so, so much but he just couldn't be with her because he had to be the Green  Arrow.  He even told her that he loved her but could never be with her in a cheap remake of a bad Western before he rode out to do battle with the railway man  Ra's.  So instead of being a good little woman and waiting for Oliver forever in case at some time he would change his mind,   Felicity moved on.  The fact that Ray recognized her abilities and gave her a job at her double MSc level rather than as the secretary Oliver had did make Oliver look like more of a jerk but that's on the writers who though they were so clever making Felicity Oliver's EA and never addressing how it must have been for her.

The Malcolm Merlyn thing also made Felicity look worse than Oliver.   When he got back, she swore to the team up and down that he would never work with someone as bad and dishonest as Malcolm, the man who brainwashed Thea to kill Sara and then arranged for Oliver to go to a fight-to-the-death with Ra's that he ended up losing, but the first words out of Oliver's mouth to her were not "I'm glad to see you; yes, I remember I said that I love you just before I left, I'm sorry you went through such a bad time thinking I was dead" but "I'm working with Malcolm, end of discussion".

I still think working with Malcolm was a stupid thing to do so I can't blame Felicity for giving up on him.  In the end, Oliver didn't even need Malcolm' training since he got all he needed from the LoA.  But the upshot of Oliver's decision was to make Felicity look like a traitor to him while Good John Diggle was there by his side all the way.

The Baby Mama Drama was terrible but I'm sure we were supposed to side with Poor Oliver, forced by his One Night Stand to lie to his fiance and thus lose her.  Thea even said it in the episode, that Oliver was right to lie to Felicity.  And then Horrible Felicity walked out on him after because she's such a bitch and wants to control him.  Poor, poor, Oliver.

Quote

Then season 4 and the kid story happened. Once again they tried to make Oliver the bad guy. When a show so blatantly tries to turn me against one character to prop another, it has the opposite effect for me.

I don't think the show ever tried to turn the audience against one character to prop another, not even with Susan this season, but the writing was so bad they ended up turning a lot of people against Felicity.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, the show never tried to paint Oliver as the bad guy - that's why everyone went along with his idiotic lie that didn't pass any kind of a logic test for keeping William safe once Malcolm freaking Merlyn found out about his existence and told Oliver he knew about it, LOL. In fact, they went out of their way to make sure no one thought he was the bad guy.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

Then season 4 and the kid story happened. Once again they tried to make Oliver the bad guy. When a show so blatantly tries to turn me against one character to prop another, it has the opposite effect for me.

I wasn't going to respond, because it's really obvious we have different ways of viewing the show and there's no point in arguing, but this just really stood out to me.  Why did you perceive the show was making Oliver out to be the bad guy when it literally had everyone-- Diggle, Thea, Vixen-- take his side and agree with him that he did the right thing? He was lying to his girlfriend, and then his wheelchair-bound fiancee about something that would make a huge impact on both their lives, and no one told him he was wrong except for Felicity, the person he lied to. And then she still helped him when his lies and secret-keeping came back to bite him in the ass and put his son in danger. But that ruined Felicity's character for you? 

Edited February 20, 2017 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

I don't think the show ever tried to turn the audience against one character to prop another, not even with Susan this season, but the writing was so bad they ended up turning a lot of people against Felicity.

Agree with you on the hideous writing but I will never understand why people turned against Felicity because of the writing.

Imo I feel like these people were pre disposed to disliking her already and only wanted to see her in a certain capacity just like I'm pre disposed to loving and defending her. I reckon a lot of it also depends on the viewers personality in real life as well. 

Personally I thought Felicity handled BMD with a bit too much class which made me extra indignant and pissed off on her behalf. That is the only time I was vaguely annoyed at Felicity, that she didn't scream and burn his sh#t but I understand that's not in her character show wise. It made me extra protective of her though so I'm going to stop now before I launch into a rant listing Oliver’s crimes against her. 

Hubby watch s3 and throughout it he was like "That Oliver is a twit I would have run off and married Ray long ago." Really interesting to see that some people were pissed at her for trying to move on. 

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

From the Starling Times thread:

 

Yeah, I"m on the "poor poor Oliver plots" rather than trying to make him look like the bad guy.  Oliver was the one who said I love you, in episodes 3x01 and 3x09 long before Felicity said it in 3x20.  Poor Oliver loved Felicity so, so much but he just couldn't be with her because he had to be the Green  Arrow.  He even told her that he loved her but could never be with her in a cheap remake of a bad Western before he rode out to do battle with the railway man  Ra's.  So instead of being a good little woman and waiting for Oliver forever in case at some time he would change his mind,   Felicity moved on.  The fact that Ray recognized her abilities and gave her a job at her double MSc level rather than as the secretary Oliver had did make Oliver look like more of a jerk but that's on the writers who though they were so clever making Felicity Oliver's EA and never addressing how it must have been for her.

The Malcolm Merlyn thing also made Felicity look worse than Oliver.   When he got back, she swore to the team up and down that he would never work with someone as bad and dishonest as Malcolm, the man who brainwashed Thea to kill Sara and then arranged for Oliver to go to a fight-to-the-death with Ra's that he ended up losing, but the first words out of Oliver's mouth to her were not "I'm glad to see you; yes, I remember I said that I love you just before I left, I'm sorry you went through such a bad time thinking I was dead" but "I'm working with Malcolm, end of discussion".

I still think working with Malcolm was a stupid thing to do so I can't blame Felicity for giving up on him.  In the end, Oliver didn't even need Malcolm' training since he got all he needed from the LoA.  But the upshot of Oliver's decision was to make Felicity look like a traitor to him while Good John Diggle was there by his side all the way.

The Baby Mama Drama was terrible but I'm sure we were supposed to side with Poor Oliver, forced by his One Night Stand to lie to his fiance and thus lose her.  Thea even said it in the episode, that Oliver was right to lie to Felicity.  And then Horrible Felicity walked out on him after because she's such a bitch and wants to control him.  Poor, poor, Oliver.

I don't think the show ever tried to turn the audience against one character to prop another, not even with Susan this season, but the writing was so bad they ended up turning a lot of people against Felicity.

I've just never really liked how Felicity has treated Oliver since they started pursuing a relationship. I came away wondering if she really loved him or just the idea of him since she always had a problem with anything he did. 

It just seemed to me the show always wanted to show how strong Felicity is at Oliver's expense.

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I wasn't going to respond, because it's really obvious we have different ways of viewing the show and there's no point in arguing, but this just really stood out to me.  Why did you perceive the show was making Oliver out to be the bad guy when it literally had everyone-- Diggle, Thea, Vixen-- take his side and agree with him that he did the right thing? He was lying to his girlfriend, and then his wheelchair-bound fiancee about something that would make a huge impact on both their lives, and no one told him he was wrong except for Felicity, the person he lied to. And then she still helped him when his lies and secret-keeping came back to bite him in the ass and put his son in danger. But that ruined Felicity's character for you? 

For me it did. It was just the last straw for me. I thought being angry with him was justified but ending things I felt went too far.

[LeighAn]

Wow 

[EmilyBettFan]

I can't for the life of me see how anyone can hate/dislike Felicity in the whole baby mama drama mess, when it was a mess Oliver and Samantha created.

If Felicity knew about it before anyone else. If Oliver was truthful with her, she's could have found a way to make them disappear with Oliver still being able to see them. 

Yet Felicity is seen as a bitch for walking out on Oliver after he constantly lied to her and left her while she was paralyzed to go see William. Yeah that makes total sense as to why Felicity's character is ruined for people. Lmfao I just can't. 

Yes Oliver is the hero of the show but damn don't be so blind as to not see his short comings in all of this. He has shown to be really inconsiderate to Diggle and Felicity on numerous occasions. Undermining and not being there for Diggle when they could've taken down deadshot long ass time ago is just one for Diggle. Also in season 2 time of death he was so wrapped up in Sara that he couldn't see a friend was distressed about her place on the team and ended up almost dying for that same character Oliver was all of a sudden boning.

Felicity has risked her friendship to Oliver with telling the truth about Thea is season 2 even with the threats from Moira.

Yeah Felicity who has been by his side and stayed while everyone else left is such a bad person.

[EmilyBettFan]

11 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I've just never really liked how Felicity has treated Oliver since they started pursuing a relationship. I came away wondering if she really loved him or just the idea of him since she always had a problem with anything he did. 

It just seemed to me the show always wanted to show how strong Felicity is at Oliver's expense.

For me it did. It was just the last straw for me. I thought being angry with him was justified but ending things I felt went too far.

So you see none of his short comings? 

How would you feel if the person you were about to marry and had been your fiancé lied to you countless times about a secret child? A child that if you ended up marrying that person and you were the bread winner of the union, you would essentially have to give away your money to?

Not only that but your hypothetical fiancé left you while paralyzed to go see that child? Everyone was on his side and you don't see how ridiculous that looks in the show yet you're here acting like Felicity is the villain.

See in the show it makes no sense and it wouldn't In real life either. 

For some reason men get away with so much and are shown so much empathy compared to a woman who is lied to in shows. 

This is exactly the reason I stopped watching The Flash. Because while Barry was applauded for crying and showing emotion in every damn episode, Felicity was shown as a pathetic woman who dared to shed a tear.

[Mellowyellow]

I don't think there's logic in this and you can't logically convince someone otherwise. 

Certain people have views on how "a good woman" is supposed to behave and as gross as that is to us it's their view. Just like they probably think we are a bunch of aggressive shrews for thinking Felicity should burn Oliver’s stuff on his lawn and shave off his eyebrows for the BMD drama (well ok only I think she should have done that). 

I don't understand how people can blame Felicity but I accept that there's a class of people who apparently do hate her for reasons! 

[Starfish35]

It's interesting how people can watch something and come away with two totally different interpretations.  To me, the show worked so hard to keep Oliver from being the bad guy that they inadvertently made Felicity the "bad guy".   I don't think they intended it that way, but in spite of everything, they put in too many people defending Oliver's viewpoint, and Felicity's viewpoint was never allowed to be defended, or even expressed for that matter.  So she ended up coming across as harsh and unreasonable.  

I mean, to me, I'm on her side.  I see her viewpoint anyway.  But I think because the show never allowed for a defense of her viewpoint - it only ever looked at the situation from Oliver's POV - she came off looking like the "bad guy" in the breakup.  And frankly I put  that squarely on the writers.

I also think they cut the legs out from under her (no pun intended, really) by not allowing her to get mad about the lying.  They were so intent on justifying his lying that they took away her strongest reason for walking away.  But then they still had to force the breakup, so they threw in that "not including me in your decisions" bit.  Which...yes, I can understand it if I think about it a little, but it would have been much more effective if they'd simply let her get mad about the lying, about asking her to move up the wedding after Malcolm found out, about seemingly everyone knowing but her.  But they couldn't do that without making Oliver look in the wrong. :(

Edited February 20, 2017 by Starfish35

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

thinking Felicity should burn Oliver’s stuff on his lawn 

And instead she apparently packed up his stuff for him since that scene was so confusing and no one thought Felicity was the one staying in the loft even though that ended up being the case.

[EmilyBettFan]

Well at least most reviewers knew how to respond and said Oliver was the wrong one and Samantha.