Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[KirkB]

Over the course of the season I went from hoping for an emotional Lance family reunion to wishing for a sitcom called "Cooking With Fire" starring Quentin as a cop/chef, Sara as a bounty hunter, her unofficially adopted snarky kid sister Sin, and her on-again/off-again mysterious girlfriend Nyssa who her dad disapproved of to hilarious results.

 

   I would watch the hell out of that show.

[statsgirl]

Really, that show needs to be pitched to Greg Berlanti.  I can see it on NBC.

[Danny Franks]

The trick is to just not make the show all about the romantic relationship.  Look at Tony Stark and Pepper Potts in the Iron Man and Avengers movies.

 

Very few TV writers I've ever seen seemed to even understand this idea, let alone find a way of implementing it. I think it's a big issue, in that a 'ship becomes so all-consuming in the writers room, as they keep coming up with way after way of holding it off, until they've just exhausted themselves and have no ideas left. So they throw the characters together, but by then they've lost all perspective on what the show is about apart from that 'ship.

 

I've seen shows turn relationships into train wrecks to try and keep some 'spark' or 'drama'. I've seen shows put characters together then almost completely ignore the relationship, in some effort to try to carry on as normal. Neither method works, in my view.

 

I think the Moonlighting Curse is a BS excuse for writers who don't have the balls and imagination to stray from the accepted path. But I do accept that, with the way most relationships on TV are written, it often becomes a self-fulfilling curse. I'd hate to see that happen on Arrow, but I also don't really want to sit and watch years of pointless 'ship teasing that slowly eats the show alive until nothing is left but tribute videos on youtube.

[foreverevolving]

Basically there's a disconnect between what the writers WANT Laurel to be and what Laurel's character NEEDS to be in order to be liked by the audience. There's no disputing why Laurel is more unlikable when she's around Oliver. This is because in order for Laurel to be seen as a strong and confident woman, she needs to let go of the baggage she's been holding onto for so long. Oliver was terrible to her, and the fact that she still cares about him romantically (though I haven't seen it on screen, I've heard KC say it), it makes her look spineless and idiotic. No self respecting woman would ever take a man like Oliver back no matter what. And if the reason why she still loves him is because she found out that he's a hero then she's a spineless, shallow idiot.

 

not defending the LaurelxOliver ship- because it doesn't work (and i'm way too invested in Olicity to say that a LxO ship exist anymore); but i would like to point out that on a more realistic TV show: ER. in it Julianna Margulies character, carol, did take back the cheating ex, Doug, played by George Clooney. with that being said i have to point out that both character went through some major personal growth in the three seasons leading to them getting back together- and even after that they had some issues (especially trust issues coming from carol) that made the first year of that relationship slightly rocky; but the major difference was that straight from the pilot the actors had mad- off the charts chemistry, and it was obvious that at the very least they both still had strong feeling towards each other- in addition the ER writer literally used those three seasons to built up a strong friendship foundation between them.

which cannot be said for Oliver and Laurel- at this point felicity embodies all those things that Laurel should have been.

 

just saying.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I had no intention of venturing over here from TWOP. However, I did to see what the temperature for season 3 is and then I read through this thread. I registered to throw my two cents in.

 

Disclaimer - these are all my thoughts and opinions. I speak for no one else.

 

In the world of Arrow, Felicity is akin to the lesser of evils. It's like voting for President. Sometimes you don't always get to pick the person you want for the job, but when you have to choose you pick the one you can live with. In the world of Arrow, I adore Felicity. She brought life to an otherwise dull show already with a DNR on life support. Without her presence in the Arrow Cave and QC, I don't see Arrow being entertaining. I don't believe Oliver is good for her all the time, but I do think most of the time he'd be the right man for her. I don't think she's the wrong match for him just because her last name isn't Lance.

 

If I have to choose between Sara, Laurel, and Felicity; I'm going Smoak every time. The sister-swapping is disgusting. The most adult moment on Arrow was when Sara was staying at the Queen mansion and she and Oliver briefly spoke about Laurel. I saw two adults addressing the past and accepting the history for what it was. I did a fist pump when I thought we were avoiding Oliver screwing another Lance in less than a year. Sadly I believe the writers shot that to hell simply to put a speed bump in between Oliver and Felicity. Oliver and Sara hooking up did nothing to further the narrative between Oliver and Sara or Oliver and Laurel. As a matter of fact you'd have to argue emphatically for me to believe it didn't harm future story lines for all three. If they were hoping it would show growth for either Lance sister, I can't imagine how dysfunctional their real life relationships are.

 

Time of Death seems to be an OOC set-up for the Oliver and Felicity fake out. The entire episode was a WTF moment. I think the writers sampled Felicity's painkillers. Regardless there is serious on screen chemistry between Oliver and Felicity. The WTFery of the Russian indecent proposal was also I believe to further the fake out. In both these cases they used an anvil when a simple mallet would have sufficed. The beauty of Oliver and Felicity is they don't need over-the-top or epic moments.

 

Oliver and Felicity work for me because Felicity is everything Laurel wishes to be through her dialogue. I'm going off a spotty memory here because I haven't seen more than a couple of episodes twice. Felicity is the one who knows Oliver. She knows his secrets. She knows the dark parts of him. She also knows his potential. As part of the team she's his conscious, cheerleader, confidante, and friend. Diggle is more comrade-in-arms, but the three of them are a great team. They each bring something to the table. Laurel creates discord in the Cave. I don't see Laurel fitting in the Arrow Cave easily unless they do a 180 with her character. I think in order to do that she needs a real crucible. Nothing she has been through has shown any growth.

 

As a viewer I have to remember Felicity is knowledgeable about Oliver's past, but she hasn't lived it. I agree pre-island Oliver isn't worthy of Felicity, I believe (with the exception of some major WTF moments) post-island Oliver is a man worthy of Felicity's love. He'll never be the perfect man for her. Life isn't about waiting though until we are worthy of love. Love is about accepting the other person as they are. Which is something Oliver and Laurel aren't capable of doing. I don't see why Felicity can't date Oliver now. I think she's ready. She's already shown she is committed, loyal, cares for him, and accepts him. Nothing says they have to get married in season 3. However, watching Digg and Roy walk in the Cave while Oliver's tongue is down Felicity's throat could be fun.

 

In the hands of capable writers, Oliver and Felicity slipping into a relationship could be handled well. I don't see it needing to be awkward. Actually I can see some cute Olicity moments. Oliver leaning in for a kiss in the Cave and Felicity stammering because she has no desire to make Roy and Digg uncomfortable. It doesn't all need to be relationship angst. I don't see Felicity backing down from disagreeing with Oliver just because she's getting some Queen loving on a king bed. There is still opportunity for growth without it being all about Oliver's dick.

 

I personally would like to see Arrow move away from the Magic Wand of Oliver. This show's strengths (as they are) is the villain of the week. Hook Oliver and Felicity up. Let it be them holding hands as they leave at the end of the night. Have Roy knock on Felicity's door and hoping he's not interrupting anything. Oliver and Felicity can be the anti-drama Arrow was becoming with the Lance sisters. 

If the writers are going Oliver and Felicity, I'd rather they do it sooner rather than later. It'll be harder to believe Oliver is really committed if he friend zones her for three plus years. I also don't see why in the last episode of the final season, Felicity would want him if he's been sister-swapping again.

 

If the writers are committed to Oliver and Laurel, I hope they show us early on. I'm not hanging around for that mess. It is a MESS. You can't fix what is shattered. It isn't cracked it is billions of pieces. I'm not believing anything these writers are telling me about them being a OTP when everything I am seeing is WTFery.

 

I also don't want to see multiple new women brought on for Oliver. I know Oliver Queen is supposed to be a playboy billionaire who doesn't go four hours without getting between a woman's legs. I also see on Arrow he isn't the Oliver of the comics. I'm glad. Quite honestly I'd have a hard time cheering for him.

 

ETA: I can't remember which thread I read it in. I'm throwing this in here though. Apparently Cassidy has said she can't conjure up chemistry with Amell because he's married? I get sex scenes being uncomfortable, but she freakin' rode Chris Gorham who is married and a father of multiple children (5?) for Harper's Island. I think the only reason they cut the scene was it was too much for network TV. It wasn't her first sex scene with him either. The only thing I can come up with is Amell's wife is jealous and is on set daily to make sure her man stays faithful or Amell and Cassidy don't get along. If you can't create chemistry with a man who looks like Amell  you are definitely not cut out to be an actress.

Edited June 28, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Sunshine]

I said this elsewhere but I wondered if the hallway scene in 2.14 Time of Death was supposed to be the death of the old Oliver/Laurel relationship and the beginning of a new one. Since then we have seen Laurel 1) giving Oliver relationship advice, 2) hugging him at a low moment (Verdant & O w/picture of family), 3)lifting him out of his darkest moments of despair with speeches, 4)following him into danger because she wants to help, and then 5)sending him off to save the city without her because she knows she's in the way. As bad as the execution (portrayal) has been, the EPs are building a friendship at a minimum. As much as I would like to say O/L are over (and I loathe them)this is why O/L shippers think they are still endgame. Okay I'm depressed now.

[wingster55]

The only thing I can come up with is Amell's wife is jealous and is on set daily to make sure her man stays faithful or Amell and Cassidy don't get along. If you can't create chemistry with a man who looks like Amell  you are definitely not cut out to be an actress.

 

I really don't think Amell has much romantic chemistry with anyone..for whatever reason..Katie,Emily,Caity...or Willa. (the latter because I've heard of the inappropriate chemistry..just never really saw it)

[wingster55]

hey had to fix Laurel, they had to slow THE HELL out of Felicity/Oliver

 

Possibly because it was very rushed in s2-A. 

Team Arrow was downplayed in the second half but mostly through Diggle. We never had a sense of Dig's importance and what he brings that others can't..whilst he still had moments and speeches from Felicity.

A big reason why I fear Olicity happening. I could support them if the writing was better and didn't sideline Diggle amongst others (Thea).

[statsgirl]

I'd like to see some subtle changes in Felicity's behavior that her partners notice.

Diggle will notice.  Oliver? Pfft!  that boy doesn't notice anything unless it's written in flashing neon lights.Worse if he's made up his mind about you, like Felicity works on computers not works out, Laurel is helpless, and Thea must be protected from the truth.

 

But it would be interesting to see Diggle or Lyla try to help Felicity through the kind of thing that tears pieces off you, as Diggle told Oliver when he signed on.

[Starfish35]

I really don't think Amell has much romantic chemistry with anyone..for whatever reason..Katie,Emily,Caity...or Willa. (the latter because I've heard of the inappropriate chemistry..just never really saw it)

*shrugs* I think he has chemistry with everyone, except Katie Cassidy. That's why I've always said that, as far as shipping with Oliver, I'm pretty much on the "anyone but Laurel" boat. My Arrow OTP is pretty much locked onto Oliver/not!Laurel.

[BkWurm1]

In many ways if they just went ahead and did full on Olicity it would allow focus to shift back to other things. Let the relationship become a given like Felicity working on computers. Include it, but stop making a lot of fuss about it.

[Luckylyn]

I wanted to share this article The Problem of Felicity Smoak which dissects Oliver and Felicity's first scene and Oliver and Laurel's first scene.  She really does a great analysis of why Felicity works so well.

[scarynikki12]

 

The only thing I can come up with is Amell's wife is jealous and is on set daily to make sure her man stays faithful or Amell and Cassidy don't get along.

I doubt Amell's wife has anything to do with Cassidy's failures on the show.  I think that she was miscast and unable to elevate the writing and knows it.  But she can't say that, so instead she looks for ways to blame the negative reactions to her and her character on an external force.  Thus, claiming that she can't do a kissing/love scene because Amell is married.  If Cassidy and Laurel had worked I don't think we'd ever read anything about how "uncomfortable" she is shooting love scenes with her married co-star.  If the subject were brought up there'd be mention that it's their jobs and not at all romantic (which is easily proven by anyone who has been on set for these scenes as no one would ever confuse them with being romantic.  She'd have more of a case if the show were on HBO and she was doing nude scenes, as there are plenty of actors who require closed sets when shooting, but she's not).  Plus, as mentioned above, she was very effective with her kissing and love scenes on Harper's Island so we know she has pulled it off before.

[wingster55]

Include it, but stop making a lot of fuss about it.

 

That would be ideal..but this is the CW.

[KirkB]

Oliver's reaction to Felicty's training session was just weird anyway. Felicity obviously isn't going to be hopping across rooftops and fighting crime, but in a city that seems to be heading in the criminal/corruption direction of Gotham why on Earth wouldn't he want her to be able to defend herself? And even if for some reason he does have a problem with it, so what? Last time I checked Felicity is a grown woman. If she wants to learn self defense or whatever, and Diggle is willing to teach her, Oliver can just sit in the corner and sulk.

Edited June 28, 2014 by KirkB

[Password]

I find Oliver's reaction concerning Barry's lies just as confusing. The way he confronted Barry in front of Felicity in so hostile a manner was strange. Was he trying to convince Felicity of something? Look at this adorable little scientist he's a liar and you should stay away from him?

[KirkB]

I haven't seen the episode in a while. but wasn't Barry actually lying about why he was there at first?

[Password]

He was but Oliver was strange in the way he handled that confrontation.

[calliope1975]

He was but Oliver was strange in the way he handled that confrontation.

 

I think it would make sense if Oliver was feeling jealous, even if he didn't realize that was the emotion. But since everyone was tripping over themselves after those episodes to say Oliver wasn't jealous, I have nothing. 

[Password]

What I don't understand is SA saying pretty much that Oliver was jealous, then saying nah it's just curiosity. Then Diggle also implies jealousy in ep 10. Oliver's reaction baffled me, he even said he overreacted.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Orion]

Oh there is no doubt in my mind that Oliver was jealous of Felicity and Barry. I think SA started give those "he wasn't jealous, he was just wondering who Barry is" interviews right around the time that Heir to the Demon was written and he realized that he couldn't be jealous over Felicity while hooking back up with his ex-girlfriend's back from the dead sister (I just gave myself a headache typing that) .  Even Diggle calls him on with, "I don't think you had a problem with Felicity's performance until Barry Allen came along."

 

Now an argument, at least in my mind, can be made that Oliver was jealous of Felicity and Barry working closely together and the partnership they were forming (fun and flirty) was what Oliver wishes he could have with her or whether he was romantically jealous of Barry. I tend to side that is was both of those because we had Oliver grumpy face while she was working with Barry and we also had it when they were just flirting together.

 

But I think SA attempting to explain that away was him trying to save the curveball story that writers threw at them with going back to Sara.  The story full stopped and jumped the tracks at that point to make Sara and Oliver a thing.

[dtissagirl]

Bringing this over from the Felicity thread.

What I don't understand is SA saying pretty much that Oliver was jealous, then saying nah it's just curiosity. Then Diggle also implies jealousy in ep 10. Oliver's reaction baffled me, he even said he overreacted.

I'm only guessing, but the pre-Barry hype on the chemistry between Gustin and EBR, and the post-Barry denial that Oliver was ever jealous [sCOFF. Diggle implied he was, so he was, Dig never lies] makes me think TPTB were aware that Felicity/Oliver had taken a life of its own even WHILE they were trying to slow it down.

My guess is they underestimated the level of media AND fandom explosion the "because of the life that I lead" scene, and the whole deal with The Count, would have. All of this stuff was filmed before S2 even premiered, and what happened was the F/O moments piled on and on in an actual crescendo from 201 to 207 [cue media and fandom explosion], so by the time Barry arrived it was too late, really. And then they had to do damage control in post-episode interviews, especially since they were filming the Oliver/Sara arc when they were giving out those answers.

[Password]

And also cue Felicity and Oliver barely interacting. They really annoyed me with the Sara-gate but mostly because of the raw deal Laurel got. Sara was not a barrier for Olicity, it was an impenetrable wall for Lauriver.

Sigh. I wish Barry returned because I really enjoyed his and Felicity's interaction. Then we could've seen what Oliver felt when they worked together again

Edited June 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[dtissagirl]

Oh yeah. It was so clunky. I mean. I've made my peace with Sara/Oliver thanks to hindsight. It served its multiple purposes of setting up everything for the finale, being an obstacle to F/O, and triggering Laurel's dramarama, but it was some of the worst story-arc planning I've ever seen. It even made Oliver look super douchey for a while, which I REALLY don't think they planned. I only got over that when it was clear to me that S/O REALLY wasn't a real relationship, it was a plot device.

 

And it didn't help that all of a sudden the showrunners and Amell were everywhere spinning an insane amount of BS while that arc was going on. I stopped watching the show live after 213 and only came back for the finale. And I know a whole bunch of folks who did the same.

Edited June 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Password]

I still haven't made peace with Sara and Oliver. I thought I would understand their sudden relationship with the help of the flashbacks but all they served to do was make me think there's a disconnect between the feelings on the island and what I was being shown in the present. It was like they were in a steady 2 year relationship immediately in the present.

You're probably right, it was a plot device, and ironically my favourite scene between them was when they were at odds about killing Roy. But the way the show handled it just made me dislike Oliver, which is unforgivable.

It gave me whiplash and just proved to annoy me.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Danny Franks]

I thought the jealousy that Oliver showed towards Barry was so much less than it was made out to be. In fact, it seemed to amount to little more than irritation that this kid was hanging around, making things a bit difficult for him.

 

Oliver was preoccupied with the threat of Mirakuru, or something similar, from the moment he saw Grundy on the CCTV. He barely had time to even think about Barry making eyes at Felicity. And honestly, I think it's one of the few times I've been annoyed by Diggle, because I think he was actually off base when he was insinuating that it was what was bothering Oliver.

 

As much as people tried to spin Oliver's overreaction to Barry lying as being about him being jealous, it was also tied to his fears of what might be about to threaten the city. He did think Barry might be involved with it, and with good reason, until Barry told him the truth.

 

If Oliver had time to stop and think about it all, I do agree that he would have been jealous. But he didn't have that time, and seemed to react instinctively to Barry from the moment he turned up, before he even showed interest in Felicity. And this does fit Oliver's character, given how we saw him compartmentalise his feelings for Laurel, and his feelings about Laurel/Tommy in the first season.

 

So, sadly, I think the 'jealousy and miscommunication fueled angst' section of Olicity is yet to be endured. And it's looming on the horizon like an iceberg (particularly appropriate simile, I feel).

[statsgirl]

Barry was lying because he wasn't really sent by Central City CSI, nor was he one of their field agents but wasn't he telling the truth that he came because there was a similar incident in Central City (namely his mother?)

 

The way he confronted Barry in front of Felicity in so hostile a manner was strange. Was he trying to convince Felicity of something? Look at this adorable little scientist he's a liar and you should stay away from him?

Oliver is very protective of his secrets, and the only one allowed to reveal them is Oliver himself.   That also extends to his team and Barry was getting too close to Felicity, who Oliver seemed to regard as his property (e.g. forcing her to be his PA) rather than a self-determining member of his team.  In Three Ghosts, it seemed to me more possessiveness rather than jealousy, and when it was pointed out to him that he had behaved badly with respect to Felicity and Barry, he invited Barry to Moira's party for Felicity.  (Hey, a party he actually stayed at, but few other people did.)   But by the next episode, when she was spending a lot of time sitting by Barry's bedside, it seems like some jealousy had crept in there, although he never admitted to it.

Felicity obviously isn't going to be hopping across rooftops and fighting crime, but in a city that seems to be heading in the criminal/corruption direction of Gotham why on Earth wouldn't he want her to be able to defend herself?

Ironically, this was EBR's reaction when asked if Diggle and Oliver were going to be training Felicity more now.  'Aren't they already?  My mother put me in self-defense classes when I was three.'

Edited June 28, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

Diggle will notice.  Oliver? Pfft!  that boy doesn't notice anything unless it's written in flashing neon lights.Worse if he's made up his mind about you, like Felicity works on computers not works out, Laurel is helpless, and Thea must be protected from the truth.

 

But it would be interesting to see Diggle or Lyla try to help Felicity through the kind of thing that tears pieces off you, as Diggle told Oliver when he signed on.

 

Depends on whether he's supposed to notice for storyline purposes, really.

 

He noticed that she was behaving strangely pretty damned quickly in Heir to the Demon, based on little other than her being a bit preoccupied and being glanced at by Moira. That's not really a problem, because I think it's realistic that he'd be more perceptive at some times than he is at others. But it does become a problem on TV, because the trope is always that characters become utterly oblivious to the feelings and moods of one another in order to heighten romantic misunderstandings.

 

The way he confronted Barry in front of Felicity in so hostile a manner was strange. Was he trying to convince Felicity of something? Look at this adorable little scientist he's a liar and you should stay away from him?

 

 

I think it was mainly that he just wanted to confront Barry right away. I doubt he'd have called Felicity in to listen if she hadn't already been there. But because she was, it gave him the opportunity to deal with Barry, and to deal with any arguments Felicity might later make, having not been privy to their conversation. It didn't work out like that, because Barry had a good story that resonated with both of them.

 

The jealousy factor, as I said in the Relationships thread, was massively overplayed prior to the episode, in my view.

[dtissagirl]

I didn't see that much jealousy from Oliver in either The Scientist or Three Ghosts. A little territorial? For sure. Felicity had never made eyes at anyone but him, so I can buy him not liking that, on top of the fact that he IS territorial about the vigilante stuff. And here's Barry suddenly barging into QC, and the Arrowcave, and Felicity's interests.

 

But the way he reacted to Felicity going to Central City to visit coma!Barry? That I saw as jealousy. I don't think he realises he's jealous [not even after Diggle pointed it out], but the level of harshness and anger he felt for Felicity going to visit a friend who was seriously injured? If all of that is just about the work, then he's left territorial and gone into crazy possessive actually SCARY creeper. So, yeah. Jealousy works for me.

Edited June 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

Yeah, I'm sure that the jealousy and miscommunication fueled angst' is coming 

especially with 'Daniel' coming next season.

How can a show's writier's resist?  They've already done it multiple times with Oliver and Laurel.

 

But about Barry, I don't think Oliver was jealous in The Scientist and Three Ghosts so much as he was possessive of Felicity's attention and didn't like Barry taking Felicity's attention away.  It was in the next episode when she wasn't around and paying more attention to Barry than to Oliver that he started to think about it.  (Or what dancingnancy said as I was typing.)

 

From the Felicity thread:

 

He noticed that she was behaving strangely pretty damned quickly in Heir to the Demon, based on little other than her being a bit preoccupied and being glanced at by Moira. That's not really a problem, because I think it's realistic that he'd be more perceptive at some times than he is at others. But it does become a problem on TV, because the trope is always that characters become utterly oblivious to the feelings and moods of one another in order to heighten romantic misunderstandings.

 More than a bit preoccupied  ... he was talking to her and instead of jumping to attention and handling it immediately, she was staring off into space.

 

I agree about the TV trope of more perceptive at some times than others but Oliver in particular tends to put people into little boxes.  He pays attention to Diggle because Diggle commanded his attention.  Until the last few episodes, he treated Felicity more like a pet puppy than a partner.  Laurel for the longest time was in the box of "woman I love but can't have because I'm not good for her" until her addiction arc and how she treated Sara opened his eyes (yay addiction arc).  Thea was 12 years old all through s1, and it took a long time for Diggle to convince him that Moira was not on the side of the innocent..  Even  Sara, who can more than take care of herself, he wanted to keep protected when Slade was in town. Did he really think that Slade had no beef with Sara, who was the one who lived while Shado died?

 

Usually it takes something of cataclysmic proportions to move Oliver out of his minds. I think we're supposed to take that he was jealous of Felicity spending so much time with Barry because Diggle told us he was, irrespective of whether Oliver got it or not.

 

Part of me wanted more of Oliver/Sara because we never really got to how they worked as a couple other than disagreeing about Roy and whether Oliver should go for Thea, and part of me wanted less because Sara was taking front and centre in both the present day and the flashbacks and Felicity and Diggle got lost in the background.

 

I wanted to share this article The Problem of Felicity Smoak which dissects Oliver and Felicity's first scene and Oliver and Laurel's first scene.  She really does a great analysis of why Felicity works so well.

She does good analyses of what works and what doesn't.  I like her thoughts on first meets (Laurel vs Felicity) too.  http://www.arghink.com/2014/01/20/writing-the-first-meet-scene-arrow/

 

I enjoyed reading her reviews of Arrow.  It's too bad she gave up on the show during the second part of s2 (surprise, surprise).

Edited June 28, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

Perhaps we can perfectly surmise it as Oliver was just being a d**k. His reactions were strange, possessive, territorial but not jealous? Diggle points it out but he's wrong?

If anything to me he was hurt that Felicity went and told Barry without his permission because telling is his thing. He didn't trust Barry and his partner told him. He was only a little irrational because the alternative would have left him deep-sixed. That I understand.

Everything else I contribute to Oliver being a douche.

[Danny Franks]

 

But the way he reacted to Felicity going to Central City to visit coma!Barry? That I saw as jealousy. I don't think he realises he's jealous [not even after Diggle pointed it out], but the level of harshness and anger he felt for Felicity going to visit a friend who was seriously injured? If all of that is just about the work, then he's left territorial and gone into crazy possessive actually SCARY creeper. So, yeah. Jealousy works for me.

 

Again, I didn't really see it as jealousy. At least not primarily. To me, it was more that Oliver's life was being inconvenienced by not having Felicity there when he wanted her. And I do think that he wants her there for more than just her tech knowhow, for sure. I think he knows, on a more conscious level than he's ever let on, that he has feelings for her and that he really, really enjoys being around her. But I just don't think her being with Barry was more annoying to him than her being gone, period.

 

I agree about the TV trope of more perceptive at some times than others but Oliver in particular tends to put people into little boxes.  He pays attention to Diggle because Diggle commanded his attention.  Until the last few episodes, he treated Felicity more like a pet puppy than a partner.  Laurel for the longest time was in the box of "woman I love but can't have because I'm not good for her" until her addiction arc and how she treated Sara opened his eyes (yay addiction arc).  Thea was 12 years old all through s1, and it took a long time for Diggle to convince him that Moira was not on the side of the innocent..  Even  Sara, who can more than take care of herself, he wanted to keep protected when Slade was in town. Did he really think that Slade had no beef with Sara, who was the one who lived while Shado died?

 

 

I agree that he likes to keep people (and pretty much all his emotions) in little boxes, so he knows where to find them, and knows what to expect from them. I've said before that his ability to compartmentalise was one of the most striking things about him in season 1. Where most heroes in that sort of love triangle situation would be tortured and frustrated, upset about how his secret life was stopping him from being with Laurel, Oliver never really was. He just accepted, 'this is the way it has to be' and got on with things. Admirable.

 

I wouldn't say he treated Felicity like a puppy, though. Certainly she was a curiosity to him at first. You could see that he was drawn to her from the off, but it was more like, 'this girl is weird and I like that' than it was, 'this girl is someone I can be friends with'. But Oliver is so standoffish by nature that I think his stillness and silence, which Felicity bounces off very well, can make him seem like he's just tolerant of her, rather than actively enjoying her company.

 

As for the Sara thing, it might be daft that Oliver thought Slade would leave her alone but... he did. Slade never really showed any interest in Sara after that glorious reaction at the Queen Mansion. I'd blame that on the writing, and the lack of follow up to Sara being chosen over Shado, than on anything going on in Oliver's mind.

 

Perhaps we can perfectly surmise it as Oliver was just being a d**k. His reactions were strange, possessive, territorial but not jealous? Diggle points it out but he's wrong?

 

 

He's an alpha male with a sense of destiny, entitlement and an obsession with secrecy that borders on paranoia. He's absolutely a possessive, territorial dick at times. He wants things his way, and that's the end of it. Going back to the box analogy, I think his mind just works that way, and he has trouble considering alternatives once his path is set. When people surprise him by forcing him to go in a different direction, he reacts badly. He did to Diggle, and to Felicity, and to Moira. If he'd had time, he'd probably have been pissed as hell at Laurel for finding out his secret too.

 

But I think all that makes him more interesting, and makes his journey to being a better man more captivating. He can't become a better man if he's not got some big flaws to overcome.

[icandigit]

Part of me wanted more of Oliver/Sara because we never really got to how they worked as a couple other than disagreeing about Roy and whether Oliver should go for Thea, and part of me wanted less because Sara was taking front and centre in both the present day and the flashbacks and Felicity and Diggle got lost in the background.

 

Yes. This is how I felt too. I thought it really was a story to be explored and that SA/CL played off each other well. And I really liked how they worked so well together in the field.

[Password]

They worked really well in the field. It's everywhere else I didn't understand. I wasn't interested in their personal relationship because it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Seeing any more of Sara would have been that for me. It felt far too much like the Sara and Oliver show at one point.

Perhaps some would have liked that but it's not what I signed up for.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Danny Franks]

They worked really well in the field. It's everywhere else I didn't understand. I wasn't interested in their personal relationship because it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Seeing any more of Sara would have been that for me. It felt far too much like the Sara and Oliver show at one point.

Perhaps some would have liked that but it's not what I signed up for.

 

The problem I had with it (well, apart from the fact that I still think it came out of nowhere and felt strange) was that it didn't inform me at all as to what Oliver was like in a relationship, or how he was dealing with being with someone he cared about, or what difficulties he and Sara had in communicating or understanding one another. What did they want from the relationship? Anything of interest was only mentioned in passing, if at all. It felt more like the writers just wanted the two hot-bodied kids to be boning (and there's nothing wrong with that). Because I don't recall much that would have needed to be different if they'd just been friends.

 

Even Laurel's jealousy and bitchiness would have worked if Oliver and Sara were just shown to be close, platonic friends. Because there would still be an implied emotional intimacy that Laurel lacked with Oliver (even if she does know him like she knows her own name. It's... Laura, right? Lily? Something with an L anyway).

[Password]

I think herein lies the problem, they didn't spend enough time either building it up or helping us understand what was sustaining it. From my POV, they tried to sell it as a deep emotional bond but what came across was they sleep with each other and that's it. The moral issue was interesting and the way Sara was gung ho about killing Roy bothered me. But I understood it. That's pretty much the only thing they talked about, and had sex. Oh and how to protect their family.

Perhaps that was the point the writers wanted to make? As much as they had a past and shared experiences they were ultimately too different for a "real", sharing, lean on one another relationship.

I think being in a sexual relationship just rubbed salt into a wound with Laurel. It just made me go again?? Really. I don't know why they decided an unromantic romantic relationship was the way to go with Sara and Oliver. Shock value? Who knows.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[statsgirl]

 

t didn't inform me at all as to what Oliver was like in a relationship, or how he was dealing with being with someone he cared about, or what difficulties he and Sara had in communicating or understanding one another.What did they want from the relationship? Anything of interest was only mentioned in passing, if at all. It felt more like the writers just wanted the two hot-bodied kids to be boning (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Oliver with Sara was basically the same Oliver that he was without Sara -- uncommunicative, expecting her to go along with what he wanted, shutting down discussion of what's the best tactic to take.  On the show, you know Oliver is valuing the other person when he lets his mind be changed (e.g. Diggle on going after all criminals and Moira's dangerousness, Felicity with respect to not killing).

 

I don't know if it was lazy writing or deliberate to show us that Oliver wasn't deeply involved in the relationship.  He did listen to Sara about letting her stay with him when he was worried about Slade.

 

 

What did they want from the relationship? Anything of interest was only mentioned in passing, if at all. It felt more like the writers just wanted the two hot-bodied kids to be boning (and there's nothing wrong with that).

There is that, because given Oliver's libido pre-island and the first 1 1/2 seasons, it would have been strange having him celibate for that long.  It seemed to me more as parking Oliver while they set up everything for the finale.  In terms of 'what was Oliver thinking?', apparently now much. Sara was there, she was available, it was a stressful time and more comforting than macaroni and cheese. 

 

Although in terms of the shock to Laurel, I think it was worse realizing that Oliver and Sara were sleeping together than if they had just been close friends.  Laurel's possessiveness makes Oliver look like St. Francis of Assisi. 

 

 

Again, I didn't really see it as jealousy.

Probably the reaction of many people, that's why they had Diggle define it as jealousy, so we could be on the same page as the writers.

[Velocity23]

What Gail Simone said about the relationship between GA/BC in the comics: I hope the writers learn something cuz we have the same issue with Laurel in the show. 

 

 

 

Well, sadly, and I mean this with NO disrespect to the talented writers, I think it weakened BOTH characters.

I think it was done more as a stunt than an organic process. And it felt like it. I was asked to be involved, but I felt the idea damaged Black Canary’s character, and did nothing for Green Arrow.

I stress that this had NOTHING to do with the idea of the characters being married, I love married superheroes. It was more the nature of the characters…we had spent years building the Canary into a force of nature, a wild, untamed chick with a motorcycle and the moves of a master martial artist.  In GA/BC, despite the best efforts of everyone, she seemed to end up as a hostage, or a wet blanket fairly often.

Green Arrow wasn’t really helped by the pairing…he has always worked best when he is driven, when he’s doing the Robin Hood thing. Adding Canary sort of unbalanced him a little.

I thought there were a lot of things that worked, the stuff with Mia could be absolutely wonderful at times.

I know people will disagree but both books suffered, it just didn’t work, and sales went down on GA considerably and pretty soon it all had to be undone.

When you do these things, they can be wonderful but they have to be done with care, there has to be a vision that works. There was a lot of good stuff in the series but I don’t think we ever saw a reason why these two were married and what it brought to the stories.

Just my feeling!

http://tanya-posts.tumblr.com/post/90192148908/what-did-you-think-of-the-green-arrow-black-canary

Edited June 29, 2014 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show only info.

[Starfish35]

It may be heartless of me, but I could not care one tiny bit what Sara and Oliver's relationship did to Laurel. I hate her that much. After the glass throwing incident, any sympathy I might have had vanished. That was, I think, the point where I went from disliking Laurel to unmitigated loathing.

Even then, however, I had a smidgen of sympathy for her in the dinner scene (while I didn't care if Sara and Oliver were together, him coming to the dinner was just not smart). But any sympathy I had vanished when she turned on Quentin and proceeded to humiliate him. From then on, my only regret about the hallway scene was that Oliver wasn't harder on her.

As for Sara and Oliver together, I never minded that, ever. I just didn't understand how they went from the hook-up at the end of Heir to the Demon to "established couple" and we never saw any in-between steps. They just were, and, yeah, that felt weird. Like we'd missed a whole section of the story somehow. Obviously in retrospect it was never more than a plot point, and I guess they didn't want to bother putting the development into it. :(

[dtissagirl]

Oh, for crying out loud. Now I feel guilty for digging up that Gail Simone post FROM YEARS AGO to prove a point about Kreisberg, because people are reblogging it on Tumblr like wildfire. And the very last thing I wanted was for Simone to get notifs from a super old post about a subject that is definitely not her favorite, with people dissing a version of Black Canary that she HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH. UGH. This is why I hate Tumblr.

[formerlyfreedom]

This topic is for the discussion of the dynamic of Team Arrow - Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity.

 

If you want to bring in discussion of potential additions, please take the conversation to one of these alternatives as appropriate:

 

• Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)
• Heartaches, Bromances, and True Love: the Relationships Thread (formerly Arrow Through The Heart)
• Target Practice: Poison Arrow (The Bitterness Thread) (formerly That Arrow Was Poisoned)

[Password]

@statsgirl if that were the intention through Diggle then why swear up and down he wasn't jealous? I can easily ignore SA and say nope that was jealousy because this that and the other. But why do that.

[statsgirl]

ArrowLimbo, I think the interview where SA said that Oliver wasn't jealous was post-Three Ghosts and during the winter hiatus.  The jealousy came later in Blast Radius when she was spending so much time with Barry in Central City, probably exacerbated by Oliver's inability to find out anything more about the super soldier

[HighHopes]

@statsgirl I think the "it wasn't jealousy" interview was this one from February 25? So it was after Blast Radius and actually Heir to the Demon (which aired February 5th. So the "not jealous" might have also been said to explain the S/O hook up better?)

TVLINE | A reader wanted to ask, “How are we going to see the Felicity/Oliver relationship evolve over the rest of the season?”
When we introduced Barry [Allen] in Episode 8 and 9, we saw a lot of people saying, “Oh, Oliver’s jealous.” I don’t know how it came across, but that certainly wasn’t the way that I was playing it. It was more curiosity about this guy and their interaction. But jealousy? Not so much. We have this Oliver/Sara thing happening now, and the immediate reaction is, “Oh, Felicity’s going to be jealous.” But Felicity’s way stronger than that. Felicity is much more interested in the overall goal of this team than the fact that Oliver and Sara might be together, and we see that in this next episode. We see Diggle say, “This must be difficult,” and her say, “Yeah, OK. Leave me alone. I’m working.” So, I think that we will see Oliver and Felicity’s relationship really solidified as partners and equals.

 

 

 

Which is weird because two months earlier, AK said it was (possibly) jealousy. 

"Oliver isn't quite sure what he feels," executive producer Andrew Kreisberg says. "He knows he feels something for her, but can't quite define it. He's surprised in [the midseason finale] when Dig [David Ramsey] points out to him that what [he's] feeling right now might actually be termed jealousy.

 

I think there was also an interview with Stephen Amell who said it was jealousy too (something about you not realizing you like your friend until someone else likes them), but my google skills are failing me tonight. 

Edited June 29, 2014 by HighHopes

[Password]

So...damage control. Best answer I can think of.

[quarks]

A big reason why I fear Olicity happening. I could support them if the writing was better and didn't sideline Diggle amongst others (Thea).

 

 

I'm all for more Diggle and don't want him sidelined. That said, if you go back to the first season, Felicity doesn't sideline Diggle. She sidelines Laurel. Laurel goes from 15 to 20 minutes of screentime in the first few episodes (more than anyone else except Oliver, and far more than Diggle) to about 3 minutes of screentime after Felicity's role started to increase in Year's End. Laurel only comes back in "Burned," - an episode where Felicity doesn't appear.  Indeed, as Felicity's screentime increases in the first season, so does Diggle's/

 

This generally continues in the second season, except here it's Laurel and Sara sidelining Diggle, Felicity and very certainly Thea; Thea has screentime and even some meaty plots (investigating Blood) in the first half of the second season until the story goes back to focusing on Laurel/Sara.  "Heir to the Demon," where Thea doesn't even get a chance to speak, is a Sara episode, even if it has a Felicity moment, for instance. 

 

There are a few exceptions: "State vs. Queen," (where Diggle is definitely sidelined early on and Felicity gets the major scenes); "Streets of Fire," (where Felicity, not Diggle, gets the major speech - but then again Diggle, not Felicity, joins Oliver in facing down Blood); and "Unthinkable," (where, to be fair, Felicity and Oliver are the major plot point - but where Diggle also gets to head out to ARGUS and learn he's about to be a father.)  But there are also some episodes where Diggle gets more screentime than Felicity does.

 

But when did Diggle really get sidelined? During episodes 11 through 17, aka the Lance Family Drama episodes, which can hardly be called Felicity centric episodes, even if she did have some major moments in "Heir to the Demon" and screentime in "Time of Death," (to counter that, Diggle had some major moments in "Suicide Squad" and screentime in "The Promise.") In a couple of them (The Promise, Tremors) Felicity's barely on screen. 

 

Post episode 17, Felicity and Diggle have equivalent amounts of screentime - and Diggle is there and participating in some of the Felicity/Oliver moments - the end of "The Man Under the Hood," is a Team Arrow moment, not a Felicity/Oliver moment, and Diggle's the one to say "You're not alone,"; Diggle is there for Felicity's big speech in "Seeing Red," and adds to it; and he and Felicity are both kicked out by Laurel for her speech. Afterwards, the show shifts to set up the fakeout, which can only work if Oliver and Felicity do have some alone time together - and as much fun as it would have been to have Oliver stare deeply into Diggle's eyes, say, "Slade took the wrong person - I love YOU! Do you understand?" I feel that the show was not really geared to go into that direction. In any case, as noted, even in those episodes, Diggle still got screentime, his own little plot, and character development.

 

Interestingly enough, during this sidelining, Diggle still got a Diggle-focused episode - something Felicity still hasn't had - and about the equivalent amount of screentime (she gets more in Heir to the Demon, he gets more in The Promise.) And Diggle got an episode that showed him working without Oliver - not to mention a love story and a backstory. Again, these are things that really haven't happened to Felicity since she's joined Team Arrow - in fact, that's a legitimate argument made by Laurel fans claiming that Laurel is the more developed character, since we have seen Laurel have friends and a career separate from Oliver's. 

 

I'm not saying that an increased focus on Felicity and Oliver won't take away screentime/focus on Diggle. It very well might. But so far, outside of the last two episodes and "State vs. Queen," that hasn't been the pattern. It's been more that as Felicity's screentime has increased, Laurel's character development, such as it isn't, has plummeted along with her screentime, and this season, whenever the show focuses on Laurel and Sara, Felicity and Diggle's screentime jointly plummets. 

Edited June 30, 2014 by quarks

[Password]

@quarks I also thought Olicity may well sideline Diggle but now it seems that isn't true. It's just those Oliver and Felicity moments are emphasised because well we love them. You're right, Dig did get a Diggle-centric episode in suicide squad that had nothing to do with Oliver (although obviously Oliver has ties to A.R.G.U.S)

 

Felicity is the only character that I feel has been least developed (along with maybe Roy) because we know a hand full of things about her, which are just random facts. Actually no, I think we have a general feel for Roy more than Felicity. I really hope s3 changes that because I want to know about her past and how it made her so strong.

Edited June 29, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[wingster55]

I agree about season 1 and back then I had no problem with it. In s2 I felt while Diggle had screentime, Felicity still had more focus in moments with Oliver.

I feel Diggle had his centric episodes to compensate for the sidelining.

Even when the season became Lance focuesd, Felicity still had her major moments with Oliver..I really haven't seen that with Diggle. In my mind he should be the more important one to Oliver...obviously not from a romantic standpoint but I've always enjoyed friendships on tv shows anyways. 

[doesntworkonwood]

Replied to in the Hopes and Fears thread

[dtissagirl]

Even when the season became Lance focuesd, Felicity still had her major moments with Oliver..I really haven't seen that with Diggle. In my mind he should be the more important one to Oliver...obviously not from a romantic standpoint but I've always enjoyed friendships on tv shows anyways. 

 

I had a different take on Diggle during the Lance Sisters drama, and really, the single thing I appreciated about those episodes is that even when they sidelined Felicity and Diggle almost completely, the two of them really stuck together through it all. Maybe it's because my focus while watching isn't primarily focused on Oliver , but since he was stuck with the A-plot in the Laurel and Sara focused-episodes, I really really liked it that they still gave us Diggle worried about Felicity's feelings in Time of Death, and him sitting on his car in front of her house after Slade showed up. The bonds of their friendship and trust in each other -- related to, but also outside of their relationship with Oliver -- felt like a gift to me in S2.

Edited June 29, 2014 by dancingnancy