Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[catrox14]

 

She was not raped, I think it was hinted Dr Ivo saved her from such a fate, hence maybe explain why she developed a "stockholm syndrome" with the guy. The show being the show it is, seems to gloss over issues like these really and wont go there, this happens across the board.

 

The "no woman should suffer at the hands of men", and "I don't like that word" when Bronze Tiger called her a bitch, etc points to some kind of sexual abuse//rape/threat of rape was used as torture/coercion against Sara.

[Danny Franks]

Bringing this from the Spoiler thread:

 

We have disagreed about Isabel back from when she first appeared.  Isabel didn't insult Felicity openly when she first appeared but she did insult Oliver and I do think that affects Felicity who is both loyal to and protective of Oliver, as Isabel would have seen. 

Isabel resented Felicity for interrupting her meeting with Oliver even though as his PA, she had every right to and it was up to Oliver to tell her he would get to "Mr. Harper" later, not Felicity's call.  At the time they arrived in Russia, I thought Isabel was being an absolute bitch to Felicity, which included the nasty comments about the length of her skirts, to the extent that Felicity, who never dislikes anyone, begged to be let out of a cab ride with her.  She was spreading the rumor that Felicity got her job because she was sleeping with Oliver (which anyone who worked with Felicity for 5 minutes would have known is not true because of how efficient she is) and any woman who has worked in business would know that's complete death to your career to get the reputation that you slept your way into the job. By giving the rumor credence, Isabel was attacking Felicity who had done nothing to hurt her.

Felicity did ask Oliver not to sleep with Isabel because he deserved better but he ignored her. (I've heard that there was a scene written where Oliver got to Isabel's to sleep with her again but Summer Glau wasn't available.)  Part of that 'better' is being a nice person to other people, especially those who work for you, which Isabel wasn't.  It says a lot that Felicity was completely supportive of Oliver's relationship with Sara later.

The thing to me is that Oliver saw how badly Isabel was treating Felicity and he didn't do a damn thing.  If he had cared about Felicity's feelings, he would have told Isabel to shut up about Felicity and that if he hears that she's says another bad word about Felicity she'd have him to deal with. But he didn't. Loyalty is a two-way street.  So as long as it isn't Slade or Malcolm Merlyn that she's sleeping with, I say "Go, Felicity".

 

 

All of this is a pretty big stretch, in my view. Isabel never insulted Felicity openly until she was revealed as Slade's lackey. Isabel making a couple of unpleasant comments about Felicity in one episode really does not amount to some sort of noteworthy dislike that Oliver should have smacked her down for. Isabel is a bitch. That was established and they all knew it. She was a bitch to everyone, and her reputation was built on that. Oliver tolerated her behaviour because it was easier than getting into shouting matches. If she had ever actually said or done anything to Felicity then Oliver might have spoken out. But she didn't. It would have felt hugely over the top, to me, if Oliver had threatened Isabel over the remarks she did make. 

 

Isabel was spreading the rumour that Oliver and Felicity were sleeping together? How? When? All she did was suggest to Oliver that it was the case. The writers never went back to the idea again, to show that the rest of the company thought so, or why they might think so. How could Isabel damage Felicity's reputation when the only person we saw her talk to about it was Oliver, who was the one person who wouldn't care about Felicity's actions? Yeah, you can speculate that she snuck around the offices, whispering it in everyone's ear. But they never showed that, they never said that happened. So it's just as valid to say that Isabel never said a word to anyone, because she didn't really care that much. Anything either way is fan supposition.

 

But in Isabel's view, Felicity was doing things to hurt her. She was obstructive when Isabel wanted to know what Oliver was up to, she ran interference for him and got him out of meetings for reasons Isabel wasn't privy to. In Isabel's eyes, those would be hostile acts. And it doesn't really matter whether we sympathise with Isabel or not, she still had valid reasons for being annoyed by Felicity. Just like I think Laurel has had valid reasons for being annoyed by her. Doesn't mean I like Felicity any less, I can just understand why others might not be so keen. And it doesn't boil down to, 'because they're evil and/or bitches'.

 

As for a scene written where Oliver disregarded Felicity's advice? Again, it didn't happen. Doesn't matter if it was written, because most scripts (for anything at all) have pages and pages excised from them before they're ever finalised. Like the much talked about Oliver/Felicity kiss in the finale. That wasn't in the episode, and it wasn't referred to as having happened. So it didn't.

[ostentatious]

I actually thought that part of Oliver's motivation for sleeping with Isabel was to throw her off that scent. I mean, not the ONLY motivation, but they were on a mission, that mission had a tight timeline, and issues on that mission could've cost Diggle his life. I don't think Oliver would've chosen right then to join Isabel for a drink, let her get a little tipsy, and then end up in bed with her, if he had no ulterior motive, and if the whole thing wasn't, in its way, a mission too.

 

I don't think it was like, some traumatic experience for Oliver, nor was it something he would've been opposed to doing under other circumstances, but right that minute? No. As soon as he got Isabel loosened up a little, he asked her for clarification on the apparent rumors about him and Felicity. He was there to get information from her, at that point. Then the opportunity to have sex with her was there, and it was something he would enjoy, and could've paid off by at least indicating he wasn't in a *romantic* relationship with Felicity, or else not anything meaningful enough to preclude him sleeping with a colleague while they were all out of the country together.

[statsgirl]

I think Oliver slept with Isabel because it was a 'no strings attached' sort of thing and Oliver had been celibate since Laurel six months before. If he'd been thinking with the head on his shoulders, he would have realized that getting into bed with Isabel, in any sense, was more dangerous than it was worth.

 

But that fact that he did sleep with her after she was so nasty about Felicity is what I find hard to forgive because I do think he owed Felicity some loyalty for being his friend and partner.  Even as Isabel was leaving, she threw out another remark implying that the only reason he kept Felicity around was for sex. I don't let people talk like that about people I care about and especially not to their face, and that's why 

if Felicity wants to date or even sleep with this new guy, I'm all for it.  Oliver didn't give her the barest loyalty with Isabel so unless he's out to destroy Oliver (because Felicity should have higher standards than Oliver does) I don't see why she should factor Oliver's feelings into it.

 

 

Isabel never insulted Felicity openly until she was revealed as Slade's lackey. Isabel making a couple of unpleasant comments about Felicity in one episode really does not amount to some sort of noteworthy dislike that Oliver should have smacked her down for.

We saw very little of Isabel interacting with Felicity until Keep Your Enemies Close so we're left to extrapolate from that episode.  When they arrived in Russia very early in the episode, Felicity asked not to be left alone with Isabel, which I think is telling about how Isabel treated her because she wouldn't have said that about Moira or even Laurel.

 

 

Isabel was spreading the rumour that Oliver and Felicity were sleeping together? How? When? All she did was suggest to Oliver that it was the case.

She did spread it to Oliver when she told him.  And she also implied that the only reason Felicity was his PA was because of the length of her skirts, not for her brains or her competency. It's been said that Isabel couldn't have known how competent Felicity was which A) I find hard to believe because she'd been working with Oliver and Felicity for several weeks by then and it would have been impossible to think Felicity wasn't competent and B) then why even say that she'd only been hired because Oliver was sexually attracted to her?

 

If Isabel had told Oliver in a "you better squash this rumor" kind of way, that would have been different. But she implied that it was true, and if she told Oliver she probably talked to other people about it too.  The 'sleeping your way into your job' hits a particular nerve with me because early in my working career, that was the rumor about the woman who had had my job before me and had been promoted to a junior executive position. I don't know if she did get it by sleeping with one of the bosses (the rumor was he was sleeping around with a number of women) but I do know that even though she was very professional and competent (more so than most of the men who had been promoted ahead of her), her career at that agency was toast because of the rumor.  It's not just gossip, it's a career-killer, as Isabel would have been well aware.  Was it petty of Isabel? Yes but that's the kind of person she was.  But since it affected Felicity's future career, Oliver was responsible and should have quashed it when he knew.

 

 

But in Isabel's view, Felicity was doing things to hurt her. She was obstructive when Isabel wanted to know what Oliver was up to, she ran interference for him and got him out of meetings for reasons Isabel wasn't privy to. In Isabel's eyes, those would be hostile acts. And it doesn't really matter whether we sympathise with Isabel or not, she still had valid reasons for being annoyed by Felicity.

That was Felicity doing her job.  She protected her boss's privacy and his time, she ran interference for him and she told him information that he used to get out of meetings.  That was Felicity's job, and not a cause for Isabel to be annoyed with her. Be annoyed with Oliver for refusing to let her get closer to him and work with him, and for running out of their meetings, but not Felicity who was doing what her boss told her to do. If Isabel had any knowledge of how business works, she should have known that.

 

 

As for a scene written where Oliver disregarded Felicity's advice? Again, it didn't happen.

We do know he disregarded Moira's advice, who told him not to trust Isabel.

 

We can't be sure if he stopped sleeping with Isabel or not because Isabel disappeared till the end of the season when she took over QC and it was revealed that she was working for Slade. But we also didn't see Oliver tell Felicity "you're right, I do deserve better than her and I won't be sleeping with her again" so again, it's what each of us extrapolates from that episode. 

 

ETA:  Oliver was the only reason people at QC were saying that Felicity used sex to get her job. I find it really awful of him, disloyal, to not protect her from hurtful gossip that arose only because she was doing something that he asked her to do.  If nothing else, he should have stopped Isabel from continuing to imply Felicity was sleeping with him.

Edited June 24, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

That was Felicity doing her job.  She protected her boss's privacy and his time, she ran interference for him and she told him information that he used to get out of meetings.  That was Felicity's job, and not a cause for Isabel to be annoyed with her. Be annoyed with Oliver for refusing to let her get closer to him and work with him, and for running out of their meetings, but not Felicity who was doing what her boss told her to do. If Isabel had any knowledge of how business works, she should have known that.

 

I agree. Isabel got annoyed at Felicity for interrupting but Oliver easily could've said "No Felicity this is important" though he didn't. Oliver sleeping with Isabel just doesn't sit well with me either because it seems like such a meat head thing to do. This woman is trying to steal your company, and you think sleeping with her is smart? Whether or not it was to put her off Felicity's scent or because he hadn't had sex in a while or both, the whole thing just screams "dumbass" to me.

 

Oliver never seems to take Felicity's feelings into account when he sleeps with people so I don't see how her getting together with Daniel is a problem. Unless she's deciding to sleep with a villain or deserting Oliver concerning team Arrow, Oliver shouldn't have much say in anything she does in her personal life. Felicity's loyalty to Oliver has never been in question so I doubt a love interest will change that. I don't think the show will head in that direction because it would violate the character we know Felicity to have now. And how will that further Oliver's character development? He starts crying because Felicity isn't at his beck and call anymore? Although that did already happen.

[statsgirl]

It's interesting that Oliver set himself a task of protecting those who couldn't protect themselves, and then he totally missed the boat when it came to Isabel and Felicity.

[Password]

Oliver doesn't quite understand what emotional protection is. He can physically protect people but, he decides getting back together with Sara is a good idea then attends a Lance dinner with Laurel, he continually doesn't tell Thea the truth though she begs for it, he tells Roy to break up with Thea though he's in a relationship with Sara, Felicity's feelings are surely hurt after Oliver explicitly says "I can't be with someone I care about" then he is.

 

Boy doesn't understand that the physical protection is of non effect if personally he's hurting people even more.

[BkWurm1]

he's in a relationship with Sara, Felicity's feelings are surely hurt after Oliver explicitly says "I can't be with someone I care about" then he is.

 

I'm still not so certain that Felicity ever directly applied what Oliver said to her so I don't think that she would have been hurt by Oliver being with Sara.  I think she would have thought Oliver got better than Isabel when he got together with Sara. 

 

How healthy their relationship really was didn't seem to be something Felicity dwelt on and for all we know, maybe she saw Oliver and Sara as just a few steps up from Oliver having a meaningless affair with Isabel. 

[Danny Franks]

We can't be sure if he stopped sleeping with Isabel or not because Isabel disappeared till the end of the season when she took over QC and it was revealed that she was working for Slade. But we also didn't see Oliver tell Felicity "you're right, I do deserve better than her and I won't be sleeping with her again" so again, it's what each of us extrapolates from that episode.

 

 

So you're blaming Oliver for what you think he might have done offscreen and unmentioned? In that case, I don't think there's any point continuing this discussion.

 

I'm still not so certain that Felicity ever directly applied what Oliver said to her so I don't think that she would have been hurt by Oliver being with Sara.  I think she would have thought Oliver got better than Isabel when he got together with Sara.

 

 

I'm pretty sure she didn't. The subtext of the scene played like she just wanted him to be happy, and thought he deserved it, while she never seemed to suggest that she was better than Isabel. But I believed from the first time I saw it that Oliver clearly had Felicity in mind as the someone he could really care about, and that's definitely the way SA played it. He seemed unusually careful in explaining to her why he chose to do what he did, and perhaps by extension why he wouldn't pursue Felicity.

[statsgirl]

 

So you're blaming Oliver for what you think he might have done offscreen and unmentioned? I

No, I'm blaming Oliver for what he didn't do on-screen, which is to stop Isabel from talking trash about Felicity because the only reason anyone thought she was sleeping her way up the job ladder is because Oliver wanted her as his PA.  

 

It speaks to how much loyalty he has shown her in the past, and how much she owes him in the future with respect to Daniel.

Edited June 24, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

Why didn't anyone tell me about these Laurel and Oliver deleted scenes. I love them. This one was funny in light of what we found out about Oliver this season. These two people should avoid each other at all cost.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2JMJpmYmRg

[Sakura12]

These two people should avoid each other at all cost.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2JMJpmYmRg

 

There is also the fact that they never bothered to tell us why Laurel and Oliver were together in the first place. What they did give us, was Oliver cheating on Laurel with multiple women and Laurel telling their parents on her younger sister so she could go after the guy Sara had a crush on.  That's a way to tell a star crossed love story, by showing us that neither of them were that into the relationship from the start. 

[Password]

Does anyone think it's ironic she said she doesn't handle paternity suits? Come on, someone!!! Laurel is very cold to Oliver, and it's not even in a funny way. It's in a "this is just sad" way.

[TanyaKay]

Hahahaha I'm so done with "cause, you know, Laurel by then will be able to hold her own in a fight because Black Canary." That is such epic reasoning I'm sure the writers are following it.

 

If Felicity betrayed Oliver I would defend her up and down and find a way to blame Oliver. Such is the magnitude of not only my love for her character but my dislike for Oliver.

 

You are not the only one. Felicity has some fierce loyal fans :)

[scarynikki12]

Is it weird that I actually like Laurel more in that deleted scene?  She's snotty and rude, but intentionally so, and it's completely understandable and relatable.  If only the show kept her like this all the time and dumped the Team Arrow nonsense.  

[statsgirl]

That seems to be the whole problem with Laurel -- that she's most likable when she's being snotty and rude but they keep wanting to make her into a good guy and Team Arrow member and all it does is backfire on them.

[wonderwall]

Basically there's a disconnect between what the writers WANT Laurel to be and what Laurel's character NEEDS to be in order to be liked by the audience. There's no disputing why Laurel is more unlikable when she's around Oliver. This is because in order for Laurel to be seen as a strong and confident woman, she needs to let go of the baggage she's been holding onto for so long. Oliver was terrible to her, and the fact that she still cares about him romantically (though I haven't seen it on screen, I've heard KC say it), it makes her look spineless and idiotic. No self respecting woman would ever take a man like Oliver back no matter what. And if the reason why she still loves him is because she found out that he's a hero then she's a spineless, shallow idiot.

 

I'm 99.99% sure that the reason for this disconnect is because of the fact that 'Dinah' is in her name. The comics are really screwing with her character and what's expected of her character. Not even that, the EPs are just so stuck on their original plan for Laurel that they'd rather put other characters down to push her up and that's not good writing. If the EPs weren't so blinded by the comics I doubt we'd be having this problem tbqh.  

[ArctisTor]

 

There is also the fact that they never bothered to tell us why Laurel and Oliver were together in the first place.

Of course, that's a huge problem right there, isn't it?  The difference between what they're telling us Laurel and Oliver were/are/will be vs. what they're showing us?

 

They're telling us Oliver and Laurel are this Epic Love Story.  While what I've ever perpetually seen between them is two sad adults who acted way more like dumb teenagers than mid-20-somethings, two people who didn't seem to know what love or real relationships are about.  And now, much older and since gone through some very traumatic stuff, they're STILL drinking their own Kool-Aid believing they had some Epic Love Story when, with what I believe they've shown, was more akin to 90210 than Casablanca.  Little more than an embarrassing, painful learning experience both adults should have long since moved on from.  Yet it feels like they never got the reality check of the toxicity and immaturity of their past relationship, just keep trying to convince themselves they had Casablanca when it was more like 90210.  Problem is, the writers don't seem to get they've written Lauriver into this tedious, maudlin 90210-meets-Puer aeternus corner from the start, so it'll probably never get better.

 

This - aside from a lack of romantic (or about any other kind of) chemistry - is why I just don't care at all for these two together most of the time.  Almost every time we get these florid platitudes from Laurel how she knows him best of all or Oliver going on how much he loves her the most, it's getting repeatedly slammed in the face of the huge discrepancy between tell vs. show.  Two characters we're supposed to see as mature adults in this epic love story doing epic, heroic things instead come off like those sad, annoying people who can't stop talking about their high school days and still fighting realities of adulthood (and both coming off a lot less mature and a lot less pleasant for it).  I don't like being around people like that in real life, much less watching them in my escapist entertainment.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ArctisTor

[dtissagirl]

Bringing this over from the Felicity thread because it pertains to the Trio --
 

I think you have to look at these scenes/episodes as sort of a trilogy or beginning/middle/end of a single story/book. If you take 201, 209 and 223 as just one long story, I don't see how you can call it fan pandering or out of place. It was exactly in place for the theme of the season.

This is so true. The more I look back at season 2 as a whole, the more I realize they really halted the overall themes -- 1. Oliver becoming a hero, and 2. Oliver, Felicity and Dig solidifying their trust in each other, and the importance Team Arrow had for the three of them -- in mid-season. They had to fix Laurel, they had to slow THE HELL out of Felicity/Oliver [and Sara here served the multiple purpose of pushing Laurel's downward spiral AND as the obstacle to F/O], they had to set up Slade's arc, they had to bring in all the extra DC characters they needed for the finale mega fight to work.

 

Oliver was still front and center of everything because the show is called Arrow, but Felicity and Diggle really got the shaft big time, because the writers decided to ditch the season's themes for a while there so they could advance plot to get to those last 3 episodes.

But if you watch 201-210, then skip to 218-223, the character development, and the relationship developments are right there wrt to the Trio.

Edited June 26, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

 

This is because in order for Laurel to be seen as a strong and confident woman, she needs to let go of the baggage she's been holding onto for so long. Oliver was terrible to her, and the fact that she still cares about him romantically (though I haven't seen it on screen, I've heard KC say it), it makes her look spineless and idiotic.

After numerous times that she's told him they're not good for each other, they can't be together, even in season 2's League of Assassins, she assumes that walking her to her door after dinner means he wants to sleep with her.

 

 

Two characters we're supposed to see as mature adults in this epic love story doing epic, heroic things instead come off like those sad, annoying people who can't stop talking about their high school days and still fighting realities of adulthood (and both coming off a lot less mature and a lot less pleasant for it).

That would explain the love for Diggle and Felicity, who actually are acting like mature adults doing epic, heroic things.  Followed by Quentin and even Thea.

 

More unforgivable than Laurel and Oliver together bringing each other down as people, they're bringing each other down as characters.

[Password]

Yes if I do a rewatch I would pretty much skip ep 11-17. Sowi Lances.

[Sakura12]

Laurel and Oliver seemed to only be together for shallow reasons. Laurel wanted a rich husband and status and Oliver wanted a clueless girl that he could parade in front of adults while he cheats on her with every other woman that crosses his path. 

[Password]

Yes they're going to have an almighty difficult time selling that relationship. Unless Laurel decides to forgive Oliver for his past and recent past (mph sleeping with Sara again) and also the baby mama and baby thing, then I don't see how it would ever work. Mostly I as a viewer don't forgive Oliver so if Laurel did I'd be bitter.

[Morrigan2575]

Wait a minute. ..didn't he use that same line regarding Olicity? I'm almost positive there's a similar quote floating around out there about Moonlighting and chemistry and stuff

[Sunshine]

There is a similar line regarding Olicity and the Moonlighting curse, chemistry and stuff.  Not sure where though.  I don't think anything was said though about bringing them together and pulling them apart though.  I fear Oliver/Laurel is still the long-term couple even though they seem to have backed off that for now.  My fear since the emmy-worthy hallway scene (sarcasm) in Time of Death is that it was meant to kill their old relationship so they could build a new one.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Sunshine

[Starfish35]

Wait a minute. ..didn't he use that same line regarding Olicity? I'm almost positive there's a similar quote floating around out there about Moonlighting and chemistry and stuff

I think that one's here - January 15, 2014 - Hollywood Reporter. It's not allowing me to copy and paste the quote, but here's the link:

http://m.hollywoodreporter.com/entry/view/id/24723

edited to fix link.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sunshine]

As for the BC in BOP, there was also an article right before the show aired on Helena bonding with someone in that episode.   Might have been the same one talking about Huntress, BC and Felicity possibly doing a BOP episode in Season 3.  Huntress and BC had fight scenes only.  Huntress and Laurel "bonded" over dead love ones. If there is a BOP episode in Season 3 it seems like Laurel would have to become BC early in the season. 

[calliope1975]

Gah, TIIC have to stop harping on the Moonlighting thing. Maybe that was a train wreck because the actors simply hated each other. (Off-topic - the Nerdist podcast where Curtis Armstrong talks about how horrible it was to work on Moonlighting because of the tension and vitriol between Bruce and and Cybill was highly entertaining and informative.) Maybe the writing was bad. I watched the show but was young enough to have the romance stuff go over my head.

 

But seriously, get over it. It is entirely possible to write two leads in a romance without it sucking or losing chemistry. Be creative. It's only your job.

Edited June 26, 2014 by calliope1975

[statsgirl]

you've got two people together who are star-crossed lovers and they're destined to be together,

You say "star-crossed", I say "stupid".

 

the little magic trick that we have to do with Oliver and Laurel is, keep bringing them together and pulling them apart, bringing them together and pulling them apart.

Aaaaaargh!

 

What makes it worse is that this thinking has written all over it the intention to ruin any other relationship either of them get into. Is that why Tommy had to die? So that they could tease Laurel with Oliver again?

 

Guggenheim in the THR interview:

Laurel, in her storyline, really begins to collide with the meta story of the season and the mythology of the season. That's something that's a lot of fun for us and something we didn't get to do with Laurel last year. Katie Cassidy, we've put a lot on her shoulders in these episodes coming back and she's really knocked the ball out of the park. She's been outstanding.

Which park was that she knocked it out of?

 

and he said about Olicity 

The burgeoning relationship between Felicity and Barry Allen from episodes eight and nine, that gets addressed from the Oliver side of things very directly in episode 10. For sure anyone who wants Oliver and Felicity to romantically hook up, Barry is a serious impediment to that. Then we'll be throwing another impediment in their path in a reasonably short order. Part of the fun of seeing Oliver and Felicity together is their relationship is so messy. They're both friends, they're very different people, they're co-workers in the oddest set of circumstances but at the same time, they're drawn to each other with an obvious chemistry. Their relationship, lowercase "R," is really fraught and that's what creates the fun and the drama for us, of watching these two very different people dance around each other.

1. It didn't get addressed by Oliver directly. There was a line about jealousy from Diggle but Oliver never replied.

2. Barry was no impediment because Oliver wasn't making any moves.

3. The good thing about Oliver and Felicity's relationship "lowercase "R"" is that it's not messy at all.

 

I'd ask what show he's watching except, except... he's the one writing it.

 

Thanks for all the research, starfish35.

Edited June 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

As for the BC in BOP, there was also an article right before the show aired on Helena bonding with someone in that episode. Might have been the same one talking about Huntress, BC and Felicity possibly doing a BOP episode in Season 3. Huntress and BC had fight scenes only. Huntress and Laurel "bonded" over dead love ones. If there is a BOP episode in Season 3 it seems like Laurel would have to become BC early in the season.

I remember them talking about doing a season three BoP episode. At the time I was optimistic that it meant Sara was staying as Black Canary. Now....*facepalm* apparently it means Laurel, Helena, and Felicity. I'm sorry, but this feels like a train wreck.

[Velocity23]

Ehhh why would Felicity go near those two trainwrecks 

[Sunshine]

No clue why Felicity would go near them.  I don't think I'm watching the same show the EPs are.

[Velocity23]

I would understand if Sara asked Felicity to help her but anything with F,H and L together for me is unthinkable. 

[Sunshine]

I agree.  Sarah as BC would make sense.  Felicity doesn't know L as anything other than the woman O loved and she definitely doesn't think much of  Huntress.  I don't see how they could reasonably pull that off in Season 3 but that's just me.  I think at the time everyone assumed it meant Sarah but other than fighting I don't remember any interaction. Not to mention the magical jacket hand-off.  

[Password]

In particular Helena because you know, she's crazy.

[quarks]

From the Laurel thread, since it's more of a relationship thing:

Here it is: July 2, 2013 -

http://www.comicbook...rticle&id=46389

QUOTE
On balancing the will they/won't they aspect of Oliver and Laurel's relationship on "Arrow": I think any time you do a TV show, and you've got two people together who are star-crossed lovers and they're destined to be together, but you don't want them together because you run into the "Moonlighting" problem of your two main characters, once they actually end up together, in a committed relationship, then it seems to lose all of its sexual spark.The little magic trick that we have to do with Oliver and Laurel is, keep bringing them together and pulling them apart, bringing them together and pulling them apart.

Yeah, I think a lot of people, including myself, were horrified by that quote.

 

 

I'm not going to defend the quote, since it annoys me, but it is from summer 2013. So I don't necessarily think it indicates that the showrunners still plan to put Oliver/Laurel together at the end of the show.

 

What more worries me is the implications here for Oliver/Felicity.  If the showrunners really think that they will lose their spark if they are together, and that the only way to handle this is to pull them apart and put them together, then AUUUUUGH.  I may not have been totally clear there. AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH. The last thing I want is an on again, off again relationship between them. 

[Velocity23]

F and Diggle were one of the biggest cheerleaders for Sara to kick Helena's ass. And i believe Diggle would strongly disagree with that kind of alliance. 

[Password]

 

Part of the fun of seeing Oliver and Felicity together is their relationship is so messy.

 

This is what makes me think that the EPs are watching a different show to me. Felicity and Oliver have the least complicated relationship you can get. It's what made me like them as a pair in the first place, they're new and uncomplicated. There's no lies, no disloyalty and they're partners. The fact that they work together can be a hindrance or a blessing. They never have to run out on each other from dates, because they go to the same place.

 

The only potential problem is basically what happened in ep 10 when Oliver threw a hissy fit at Felicity and there was tension in the Arrowcave.

[Sunshine]

If they put Oliver and Felicity together, I don't think it will be an on again, off again relationship which is why I would expect them to go slowly even on a show that likes to do things sooner rather than later. I could also see them putting them together and then having them both decide that they are really better off as friends/teammates. I guess I just think the only door that has been closed in Oliver's love life is Sarah and that's because she handed him off to her sister just as carelessly as she did the magical jacket.

[statsgirl]

Even with the jacket hand-off, I still Sara as a more viable love interest for Oliver than Laurel.

 

The only potential problem is basically what happened in ep 10 when Oliver threw a hissy fit at Felicity and there was tension in the Arrowcave.

 

But there was (could be?) development from that because Oliver recognized what he was doing and he apologized to Felicity.  Other than his constant apologizing for his bad behaviour with the sister-swapping pre-island and his keeping secrets, isn't this the only time the apology-phobic Oliver has actually told someone he was sorry?  He's told Diggle "you were right" a few times but he's never actually apologized.  Once again, Oliver grew.  As long as they don't become the Bickersons in the lair, I don't mind the occasional conflict, just as there was the conflict in s1 with Diggle when Oliver went to save Laurel's case (sigh) instead of backing up Diggle as he said he would.

 

I guess I can't see the show putting Oliver and Felicity together and then deciding they'd be better off as friends. There seems to be too much fan and critical support for both Felicity and Oliver-when-he's-around-Felicity.  They would have to come up with a more solid way to end them than that, and short of EBR leaving the show, I can't think of one.  On the other hand, on-again, off-again would be even worse.

 

I thought after Castle, Bones and a number of other current shows, that old Moonlighting chestnut would be long dead, not that it ever really applied.  What killed Moonlight, among other things, was the bad writing that tore them apart after they got together.

[TanyaKay]

Laurel and Oliver seemed to only be together for shallow reasons. Laurel wanted a rich husband and status and Oliver wanted a clueless girl that he could parade in front of adults while he cheats on her with every other woman that crosses his path. 

 

This sums up, rather nicely, the epicness of the train wreck called Oliver Laurel romance

[KirkB]

I thought after Castle, Bones and a number of other current shows, that old Moonlighting chestnut would be long dead, not that it ever really applied.  What killed Moonlight, among other things, was the bad writing that tore them apart after they got together.

 

That's always what I figured. Moonlighting was a funny show before David and Maddie got together, but the majority of the writing for the episodes was built around the will they won't they thing. It was literally the foundation of the show. Then they got together and the writers suddenly realized they hadn't given any thought to what they were going to do next. Coupled with what I have read since was tension between Bruce and Cybill the bad writing that followed was what killed the show. Why producers and directors (notice it's almost never the actual writers) pull out this chestnut is beyond me. Good enough writing can compensate for almost any problem and thinking ahead about your plotlines helps too.

[statsgirl]

Unfortunately, in this case it's one of the head writers, Marc Guggenheim, who is pulling out the chestnut.  I think every show needs a writer who can write romantic relationships, just as there needs to be ones who can do platonic relationships and action sequences, and they should be given the responsibility of writing the romance. Sadly, this almost never happens.

 

 I wish I had more faith that either MG or AK could write a relationship and make it work.  The best ones on the show were Tommy/Laurel, Roy/Thea and Moira/Walter and all three of those broke up.

 

Laurel wanted a rich husband and status

 

Let's be fair to Laurel though, Oliver was handsome and fun,(although maybe too selfish to be good in bed). So, bonus. 

[Password]

As long as they don't rob me like Bones, Oliver and Felicity as a couple shouldn't be that much of a problem. Pfft they essentially were one pre Sara-gate. I love that Booth and Brennan are a happy family now, there are so many conflicts and happiness couples go through that it must be just laziness to think the fizz goes away.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[BkWurm1]

problem of your two main characters, once they actually end up together, in a committed relationship, then it seems to lose all of its sexual spark

 

Well at least losing the spark between Oliver and Laurel wouldn't be a problem.  Can't lose what was never there. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

The trick is to just not make the show all about the romantic relationship.  Look at Tony Stark and Pepper Potts in the Iron Man and Avengers movies.

Edited June 27, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

And also Leverage. The romance was practically a C plot but still very good.

[dtissagirl]

I actually wouldn't mind it if they kept throwing obstacles of the rom-com trope kind at Oliver/Felicity for another season or two, just to keep them apart until the characters are ready to be together. The problem is these writers' idea of obstacles to romance so far are cheating, sister-swapping, and secret children stashed away. And reading the EPs saying Oliver and Felicity's relationship is "messy" just gives me whiplash, because that really is NOT the relationship I'm seeing onscreen.

Edited June 27, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Password]

Yes I don't mind characters staying away from each other until they're both ready for it. But with the way they handle Oliver and Laurel I fear for Olicity.

I just don't want to be turned off the relationship by the time they're there.

[JayKay]

Guggenheim in the THR interview:

Laurel, in her storyline, really begins to collide with the meta story of the season and the mythology of the season. That's something that's a lot of fun for us and something we didn't get to do with Laurel last year. Katie Cassidy, we've put a lot on her shoulders in these episodes coming back and she's really knocked the ball out of the park. She's been outstanding.

Which park was that she knocked it out of?

Maybe he accidentally said "ball" instead of "car" and "out of the park" instead of "out of park, injuring dozens. She's been getting outstanding fines." /mean

 

During season two I was really looking forward to Sara being the one person who could get Laurel to straighten up her act and start behaving like a non-toxic human being again, but things only got worse. If Laurel's reaction to Sara being alive had been joyous, or even conflicted but with some actual consideration of anyone else's feelings I think I could have forgiven a lot of her behavior.

 

Sara was a character who brought an opportunity to see a new side of Laurel. Even watching villains care about each other can make you care about them, and Laurel's not even a villain. So I thought that it was a colossal waste for the writers to have her strike out at yet another person who cared about her. Watching Quentin suffer as he tried to help her was hard enough. But viciously rejecting her little sister who was miraculously back from the dead finally forced me to realize that deep down, Laurel was a bad egg and hard-hearted. I never got to see a close sisterly relationship between the two Lance girls, and I probably never will. It's disappointing.

 

And I'll never stop being heart broken by Laurel's hateful "I'm hungry" in response to Quentin's plea that she get help. He was trying to be a good dad and was only met with dead air. Over the course of the season I went from hoping for an emotional Lance family reunion to wishing for a sitcom called "Cooking With Fire" starring Quentin as a cop/chef, Sara as a bounty hunter, her unofficially adopted snarky kid sister Sin, and her on-again/off-again mysterious girlfriend Nyssa who her dad disapproved of to hilarious results.