Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[bijoux]

Ah. Thanks.

[manbearpig]

Heh, I thought of Maria and Michael from Roswell season three and that whole brief music business weirdness.

[bijoux]

Footloose was right, music is evil!

[lemotomato]

I kept rooting for those couples even after all that. I'm a terrible person, hahah.

 

I don't think you're a terrible person, because I kept rooting for those couples too. (Well, not Ross and Rachel, I didn't even like them when they were together.) That's why I picked them-- endgame couples that went through a lot worse than Olicity and still had fan support.

Who's the last couple?

Nathan and Haley from One Tree Hill.

[kismet]

I think that Thea was fine with Malcolm getting killed off last season.  However, this season, she has been working towards reconciling with him.  They've had some heart-to-heart talks and she has begun calling him dad.  I can understand why Oliver would be hesitant to be the one to actually take that away from Thea.  Also, Malcolm is Tommy's dad. In the final scene with Tommy and Oliver, even though Tommy knew that his dad did all those bad things, some of his last words conveyed that he still didn't want Oliver to kill Malcolm.  Given the importance of Tommy and Thea, it would definitely be difficult for him.

 

I don't think that the team should force Oliver to kill him if he doesn't want to - it should be everyone's responsibility not just Oliver's to save the city.  I would say the rest of the team should work with Nyssa to kill Malcolm or have Nyssa wait until she is strong enough to kill Malcolm herself.

II tend to agree with you. People tend to love their parents, no matter how messed up they are or their relationship is. And the show for better or for worse has shown us the TQ is starting to see if not only read sees MM as a father figure. From the minute she got into that limo is s2, almost stayed in Corto Maltese in s3, and now is calling him Dad in s4. TQ has declared that MM is her evil father, but he is her Dad. We as the audience may disagree but the one thing the show has shown us is that TQ believes MM to be her father. It’s also shown us that MM is probably one of the worst fathers ever, and the his children & the world are better off without him.

 

But per ARROW logic, he is her father so he must be allowed to stay alive. Besides RQ, all the other parents in this show were killed by villains. If OQ kills MM without just cause (which he didn't have in 413) or extenuating circumstances, then he becomes a villain and not a Hero. The show has given weak evidence, but it has tried to show us that MM is trying to make amends for what he did in the Undertaking (that ep in s3). Also it felt like at times MM’s believed his role as Ras was bringing about justice, which in his mind probably also helps absolve some of this guilt in his previous actions.

 

So I understand why OQ does not want to be responsible for taking MM or her “Dad” away from MM. It does sort of make sense from what the show is telling me. MM is a horrible man, but he still is her parent. OQ might have everyone’s permission to kill MM, but unless he has TQ’s permission I don’t think he ever will kill him. TQ did send MM off to be killed ins3, but since that time she has seemed to regret that decision. Unfortunately, every time there is a good moment or reason to kill MM, TQ is incapacitated and unable to give her opinion. What the show really needs to do is have TQ & OQ sit down and really discuss their relationships and how TQ actual feels. They need to discuss just exactly what MM has really done to them and how much he is not really a father to either of them by his actions. But that would resolve the issue and this is a TV show, so I don’t expect a resolution anytime soon.

 

It’s messed up in so many ways, but I actually understand why OQ does not want to be the person to kill MM. If you notice, he had no problem with the thought of Nyssa killing MM at the start of the show. That’s a progression from last year.  It wasn’t until the Lotus became a factor that OQ felt the need to negotiate between the two. He only stepped into fight when he realized that Nyssa may die (because for some plot related reasons, the show has decided Nyssa can’t beat MM or OQ). I think it was twofold. I don’t think he wanted Nyssa to die, I also don’t think he wanted to lose access to the Lotus, which might have happened with Nyssa’s death. 

 

There are two reasons that MM is alive by OQ’s interference. The first is that he did not want his sister to be responsible for his death, because the guilt would haunt her. Valid reason considering this show and his experiences being indirectly related or at least connected to the reason both of his parents died. The second is that he does not want to responsible for his death without TQ’s permission, because it would compromise their relationship.  For me, those are the in-show reasons why OQ is not going to kill MM anytime soon. MM may do very bad things in the near future to OQ, but until he does or TQ/OQ have a conversation about MM – I don’t see OQ volunteering to be the one to kill MM.

 

In the end, it comes down to the fact that the show wants us to believe that OQ relationship with his sister is more important to him than him killing MM. TQ has begun to see MM as her "Dad", so that relationship has become important to her. She pursued & maintained a relationship with him. It was TQ's choice to become MM's daughter. With the one exception of sending him to NP, which she regretted - TQ has actively maintained her paternal relationship with MM despite the fact that she has called him "evil". So until she reveals to OQ that she is okay with her "Dad" being killed (esp by his hand, no pun intended), I think we will see OQ fight to preserve the relationship he has with TQ, but preserving the life of MM. Now why the show can't have TQ come to realize that MM is not her real father is a whole other conversation. Because once we eliminate that father connection than it does become "ok" for the Queens & the show to get justice for MM's victims and hold him accountable for the seriously bad things that deserve punishment.

Edited February 12, 2016 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

I think I've in general put my finger on what is Arrow's problem with handling it's ensemble cast. On LoT the team pairings mix and match. For example so far we've seen Sara with Cap Cold and Heatwave, Sara with Jax and Stein, Sara with Rip, Sara with Kendra. It wasn't as pronounced but she is also the one that gave Ray the pep talk he needed to continue on with the team. LoT lets all the characters have relationships with all the characters. Who is the "A" story changes so even just four episodes into the series, it already feels far more balanced.

 

Arrow, on the other hand, has very strict rules as to who is allowed to talk to who. Oliver of course can speak to everyone and those on Team Arrow are allowed to address the group in general or speak in front of everyone but they have rules they follow about one on one exchanges.

 

Most of us have noticed this with Felicity Felicity gets to talk to Oliver, Curtis and her mom. Ray was left over from last year as well. Everyone else has been limited to maybe one or two sentences (at most) for the whole year.  

 

It finally occurred to me that this is a problem for EVERYONE. 

Let me break who the rest of the characters are allowed to talk to as well. Just assume Oliver is on everyone's list.

 

Laurel: Thea, Diggle, Quentin, Sara Nyssa. She also had one episode where she was allowed to talk to Malcolm but not since then.

 

Quentin: Laurel, DD. Donna Didn't even get to say goodbye to Sara.

 

Thea: Laurel, Alex, Malcolm

 

Diggle: Laurel, Lyla, Andy. Early in the season he also had Thea but once Oliver was back, that stopped.

Thirteen episodes and maybe couple minuscule exceptions each, otherwise Laurel never has stories with Felicity and Felicity can't have one with Thea and Diggle is never to talk to Donna or Curtis and Cutis can't meet Thea and Thea can't question Nyssa about the LP's power and no one but Oliver, Curtis and Donna is allowed to go to Palmer Tech. It's ridiculous!  They need to color outside of the lines and mix and match.  It feels unbalanced because everyone is locked into only their part of the show.

 

 

Kind of a related side note.  I noticed after breaking down who each character got to regularly interact with and I noticed something that disturbed me.  There is one character that is allowed to talk to nearly everyone.  

 

Laurel. 

 

The only regular Laurel doesn't normally talk to is Felicity otherwise Laurel's been handed as "her" people Quentin of course but also Thea and Diggle in addition to the one everyone talks to, Oliver.  Everyone but Felicity and some part timers have been made a part of her circle.  She's still barely been of any use IMO on the show but I still don't like that while everyone else has an embargo, she's allowed almost complete access.  DO NOT LIKE. 

[wonderwall]

Kind of a related side note.  I noticed after breaking down who each character got to regularly interact with and I noticed something that disturbed me.  There is one character that is allowed to talk to nearly everyone.  

 

Laurel. 

 

The only regular Laurel doesn't normally talk to is Felicity otherwise Laurel's been handed as "her" people Quentin of course but also Thea and Diggle in addition to the one everyone talks to, Oliver.  Everyone but Felicity and some part timers have been made a part of her circle.  She's still barely been of any use IMO on the show but I still don't like that while everyone else has an embargo, she's allowed almost complete access.  DO NOT LIKE. 

 

I've always thought that Laurel is the barrier that the writers put up between characters like Digg/Thea/Felicity/Quentin, hell, Laurel's even talked to Oliver more than Thea has this season... I think it's because the writers are desperate to integrate her into the team and show that she's a team player, but in the end it doesn't work out because that just stops Diggle/Thea/Felicity from ever really interacting. And it's also a problem because whenever she has those moments between Thea/Digg/Oliver, it always goes through my mind that those moments would've been more powerful with a different pairing. Examples:

 

• Laurel comforting Diggle in 407 would've been more powerful if he confided in Felicity, a woman who he views as family (or supposedly does), a woman who he's gone through a lot with. 
• Laurel talking to Oliver in 411 would've been better if it was Thea talking to her. It's rare to see Thea/Oliver have normal conversations about their lives and because Oliver/Thea love each other so much it would've been perfect to see Oliver finally opening up to Thea
• Laurel's scene with Thea when she was talking about her blood lust would've been much better with Oliver or even Felicity. While Laurel brushed it under the rug, Felicity nor Oliver would've done that. Not to mention the writers REALLY need to work on building Thea/Felicity's friendship because that's been non-existent. 

 

It's annoying and a reason why I want the show to kill Laurel. I want to see that barrier taken down so the characters can interact more often.

Edited February 14, 2016 by wonderwall

[looptab]

I noticed that, too after watching LoT. It's just been 4 episodes but it seems already way more balanced (assuming they don't screw it up over the rest of the season). Honestly, it's not like Laurel and Diggle had that many scenes together, still, it's more than Felicity/Diggle had, or Felicity/Thea had. I get mixing up the pairings and develop Laurel's relationships with other characters, but that should go for everyone, and that's not the case. 

[theacostov]

I think the problem is that for all their talk of an ensemble show, it's still Oliver's story. If it's not pertinent to his story they're not going to spend time on it.

Also with Laurel, because of her lack of actual storyline, they've decided the only way she can have screen time is if she is the sounding board for whichever character needs to tell the audience something. Hence why she has these chats regardless of whether it's organic.

There's a cynical part of me that thinks that the reason Felicity isn't allowed scenes with Diggle and Thea (especially Diggle) is because they know the chemistry with Felicity is volumes above that with Laurel. That 10 second Delicity scene in 4x11 eclipsed any other scene he's had with Thea or Laurel this season. There was so much natural warmth there. I really hope the back half of the season allows for some Delicity. With an Olicity blow up I need other parts of OTA to step up.

[dtissagirl]

Also with Laurel, because of her lack of actual storyline, they've decided the only way she can have screen time is if she is the sounding board for whichever character needs to tell the audience something. Hence why she has these chats regardless of whether it's organic.

I'm pretty sure this is it EXACTLY.

[kismet]

LL really has become that hanger-onner at a party hasn't she? She's omnipresent, yet invisible at the same time.

[statsgirl]

I was listening to an interview with Jeff Hancock, communications prof at Stanford, and he was saying that people lie to a partner for three reasons:  to protect themselves, to protect the other person, to protect the relationship.  I had always assumed that Oliver lied to protect himself but it occurs to me now that he also lied to protect the relationship, even though by lying what he's really doing is hurting it even worse.

 

I've always thought that Laurel is the barrier that the writers put up between characters like Digg/Thea/Felicity/Quentin, hell, Laurel's even talked to Oliver more than Thea has this season... I think it's because the writers are desperate to integrate her into the team and show that she's a team player, but in the end it doesn't work out because that just stops Diggle/Thea/Felicity from ever really interacting. And it's also a problem because whenever she has those moments between Thea/Digg/Oliver, it always goes through my mind that those moments would've been more powerful with a different pairing.

I don't think they're doing it on purpose to isolate Felicity from Diggle and Thea or Oliver from Thea but it's an artifact from giving Laurel conversations that would have gone to other characters a season or two ago.

[wonderwall]

I don't think they're doing it on purpose to isolate Felicity from Diggle and Thea or Oliver from Thea but it's an artifact from giving Laurel conversations that would have gone to other characters a season or two ago.

 

I definitely don't think that it's intentional. I think it's symptomatic of the writers not knowing what to do with Laurel and trying really hard to integrate her into the team even though it seems rather contrived at times. I guess the writers just need to give Laurel something to do...

[BkWurm1]

I don't think they are keeping Felicity from talking with Diggle out of fear that she'll outshine Laurel but I do think they are purposely not letting her regularly interacting with those outside of her approved list of people for what reason I really don't know.

[wonderwall]

I don't think they are keeping Felicity from talking with Diggle out of fear that she'll outshine Laurel but I do think they are purposely not letting her regularly interacting with those outside of her approved list of people for what reason I really don't know.

 

I don't think it's because the writers are afraid that Felicity would outshine Laurel... Again, it's the case of the writers not knowing what to do with Laurel and trying to integrate her into the team more whereas Felicity has her own thing going on and is already fully integrated into the team so maybe those scenes may be less necessary. So be cause Laurel is a newbie, I think the writers wanted to put Felicity on the sideline in regards to her Team relationship because they think they can afford it? IDK

[looptab]

I think it's also a byproduct of having guest characters to interact with. Felicity has Donna and Curtis, Thea has Alex. Laurel has no one outside the regulars, so they need to insert her somewhere.

Edited February 15, 2016 by looptab

[statsgirl]

The irony is that Laurel also has her own thing to do ... it's called Being A Lawyer.  It's ironic that on a superhero vs villains show, they can barely find a place to incorporate her day job as a lawyer.

[wingster55]

They can't bothered to. It's not "exciting" which is a massive storytelling fail. Like Iris on Flash...those worlds can be compelling if the writers gave a damn. 

[kismet]

taking to LL thread

Edited February 16, 2016 by kismet

[way2interested]

 

 

I'm not saying they aren't going to break up. I think they will. I just don't think we will see that anger that we saw from Felicity in 4x08. I'm expecting more hurt and her trying to understand.

 

The vibe in the limo scene is up for interpretation. I didn't see Felicity directing any anger at Oliver, it all seemed to be at the 'Him.' To me, it looked like two former very close people who just experienced a traumatic event and don't know how to act around each other.

Bringing my reply to this from the 414 episode thread since I'm mostly talking about Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

 

It's strange, this episode, for all of its heavy anvils for the secret to come out, also continued to have the sprinklings of the strength of the love that Oliver and Felicity have for each other, like many of the episodes throughout s4. 414, 413, and that part in 408 that have really touched on the idea of Oliver and Felicity having potential problems that would cause them to break-up (ie, the secrets anvils, Felicity and Donna's convo about people not changing in 413, the fight in 408). Meanwhile, you've got 401,402, 406, 409, 410, 411, and even 414 at least that tell and show that Oliver and Felicity are ready and willing to fight anything to support their relationship. For all of the setup that they have for Oliver and Felicity breaking up, they seem to have a bunch of setup for them to stay together in the future as well (or at least get back together).

 

It's one of the reasons why them breaking up always felt strange to me. Not because of the reasoning, the drama/secrets/lies is enough to end the relationship, but because of the entire setup of Oliver and Felicity's relationship that's been happening from 401 to this very moment. Oliver and Felicity have faced domesticity, returning to their old lives, embracing their new identities and responsibilities, facing new enemies, facing returning friends thought lost forever, fights between each other, mortal peril, life-altering injuries, insecurity, and an upcoming marriage together and have got closer because of it, with their only moments of instability being based on personal insecurity rather than based on their ability to function as a couple. Then, almost suddenly, one moment-one lie/secret- being built up is coming out of nowhere to shatter that security?

 

It does only take one moment to break trust, but then the entire build-up and moments from s4 would have been for nothing if they don't eventually reach a loving moment of understanding and reconciliation. They've set up the feelings of distance between Oliver and Felicity within 413-414, and they will definitely break-up per the flash forward, but the set-up to me more focuses on hurt and distance followed by an eventual return to support, trust, and understanding. 

 

Sorry to take off kind of tangentially from the quote, it's just something that I've been noticing.

[dtissagirl]

I think no matter what kind of breakup they give O/F, it will feel as artificial, and contrived, and written against the natural flow of what the characters are about, as this entire pile of poo of a storyline has been.

 

They clearly made pre-determined choices about the romantic arc this season, and one of the beats was gonna be that O/F would breakup sometime during February sweeps. So, hi, 99.9% chance that next week, they're breaking up, because it's the last episode of sweeps.

 

I actually kinda hope that the death happens in 418 or 419 at the latest, and that O/F get back together in 420, because I know IN MY BONES that the episodes in-between breakup and reconciliation are gonna be the TV equivalent of having a Dementor living in my house. So the quicker this can be over, the more appreciative I'll be of the fact that Arrow hasn't found a plot yet that they couldn't rush through.

[thegirlsleuth]

They clearly made pre-determined choices about the romantic arc this season, and one of the beats was gonna be that O/F would breakup sometime during February sweeps. So, hi, 99.9% chance that next week, they're breaking up, because it's the last episode of sweeps.

I really do think they gave them the Laurel/Oliver season four storyline, but because there was no organic way that Felicity would get angry that Oliver would have had a 10-year-old child--Laurel could have had some justifiable anger--they shoved an Oliver/Felicity square peg into a Laurel/Oliver round hole.

[statsgirl]

I think all these nice moments between Oliver and Felicity are to have us root for them to get back together after they break up.  Oliver is a not only a liar but a dimwit who thinks that Malcolm and Thea knowing but not Felicity is going to be okay, but I'm anticipating Felicity getting a lot of hate when she breaks up with Oliver.  I'm anticipating that they will be angry at her for not accepting Oliver's child, and calls for Oliver to get back to his true love, the Black Canary, and the lying part will just be skipped over.

 

I know they planned out this beat when they started planning season 4 but I wish the reasoning were better.

 

Felicity's paralysis arc took 4 episodes (410 - 414 when Curtis came up with the cure).  That was long enough to examine her feelings and its effects but not too long.  I want Oliver and Felicity back together 0n roughly the same time frame because if season 3 taught me anything, it's that I enjoy this show when Team Original Arrow are together.

[dtissagirl]

but I'm anticipating Felicity getting a lot of hate when she breaks up with Oliver.  I'm anticipating that they will be angry at her for not accepting Oliver's child, and calls for Oliver to get back to his true love, the Black Canary, and the lying part will just be skipped over.

 

I have no doubt these type of reactions will happen in fandom, because it's fandom. Haters gonna hate, or something.

 

However, I don't think there's any possible way these reaction can affect change on the show itself. I truly don't think anyone in the writers rooms are gonna go "oh noes, people in the internets have turned against Felicity, now we have to cater to them haterz". I'm pretty certain that the point in time when O/F gets back together has also already been decided. If they get back together this season, then they already know which episode it's gonna be.

[statsgirl]

If it's this season, they know which episode.  If it's next season, it will be in the premier or close to it because that 100th episode is coming up.

 

I agree the fan reaction isn't going to affect anything.  I was just proposing that all these nice moments with Oliver and Felicity are put in to help buffer the reactions to the break up when it comes as well as making the split more shocking.

[Password]

If it's this season, they know which episode. If it's next season, it will be in the premier or close to it because that 100th episode is coming up.

I agree the fan reaction isn't going to affect anything. I was just proposing that all these nice moments with Oliver and Felicity are put in to help buffer the reactions to the break up when it comes as well as making the split more shocking.

All of these nice moments actually make me sick because I know what's coming up. The cute togetherness is a lie. They make Oliver look absolutely terrible and I would be glad if they allow this to run longer than a few episodes of Felicity being hurt. This is a massive breach of trust.

[tv echo]

The strength of the Olicity moments just makes it all the more jarring and perplexing that Oliver would choose to lie to Felicity about something so important in his life - and it is a lie, not an omission.  (Remember his trips to Central City?)

 

I realize that MG's argument in support of Oliver's secret-keeping is that Oliver must honor his promise to Samantha (not to tell anyone about William) in order to have any kind of relationship with his son and to keep his son safe.  That sounds good on the surface.  However, there are a ton of flaws with this argument (summarized):

 

1.  Samantha had no right to lie and keep his son a secret from Oliver for 10 years, and Oliver seemed minimally upset by that fact.

2.  Samantha had no right to demand such an unreasonable promise from Oliver, and Oliver barely argued with her.

3.  Oliver has legal rights to see his son - rights that he could easily have gotten in court.  (Yes, this would've exposed William's paternity to the world, but see other points.)

4.  Oliver and Samantha are not being good parents by allowing William to have play dates with, and become emotionally attached to, someone who's essentially a stranger to him.

5.  Oliver has an obligation to be truthful with his fiance, as well as his friends and team mates, who all put their lives on the line for and alongside him (esp. given what Oliver did in S3).

6.  Oliver could've have told Felicity (and even Thea and Diggle) about his son and sworn them to secrecy, without Samantha ever finding out. 

7.  Honoring his promise to Samantha meant and means lying repeatedly to his fiance and friends/team mates, when trust is the foundation for both a marriage and working together as Team Arrow.

8.  Oliver had the choice between lying to Samantha or lying to his loved ones, and he chose to lie to his loved ones.

9.  Oliver chose to give priority to Samantha's wishes and feelings (and also his own wishes and feelings) over Felicity's wishes and feelings.

10.  While keeping William a secret from the general public is justifiable for his safety, keeping him a secret from his fiance (or even his fellow Team Arrow members) is not justifiable because Oliver knows they can keep a secret.

11.  If being able to see William and develop a relationship with him was Oliver's primary concern, then Oliver had and has legal rights as his father (as stated above).

12.  If William's safety was Oliver's primary concern, then telling Felicity (and even Thea and Diggle) would not have jeopardized that safety.  

13.  Given his vigilante lifestyle and enemies, Oliver's making repeated trips to visit William was more risky than telling Felicity about his son.

14.   After learning that Malcolm knew about William, and esp. after betraying Malcolm and cutting off his hand, Oliver should've told Felicity and Team Arrow immediately so that they could help him protect William.  He also should've taken steps to inform Samantha of the potential danger.  (Once again, Malcolm knows something about Oliver that Felicity/Diggle don't know.)

15.  After learning how Thea tracked down Samantha and William and learned his secret, Oliver should've told Felicity so that she could use her hacker skills to erase electronically any eivdence of Moira's $1M check to Samantha and any trace of their college connection.

16.  Certainly, after Barry, Malcolm and Thea all found out about his son, Oliver should've immediately told Felicity (and probably Diggle as well, since his rebuilt trust with Diggle is only a few months old).

 

Bottom Line:  In making his decision, Oliver was only thinking of himself and what he wanted.  He was not thinking about what's best for William, and he certainly wasn't thinking of Felicity.

 

ETA: Samantha complained about Oliver's pre-island spoiled, womanizing persona and then demanded a promise from Oliver that would force Oliver to become that lying asshole again to his loved ones. When Oliver told her that he isn't that person anymore, she replied "I know" and yet she still forced him to become like that person again and made his life harder on purpose.  So tell me again, how is Samantha a good person?

Edited February 19, 2016 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

The strength of the Olicity moments just makes it all the more jarring and perplexing that Oliver would choose to lie to Felicity about something so important in his life - and it is a lie, not an omission.

 

It's not a lie, it's a promise he made to the mother of his child!!!

[Midnight Lullaby]

Bottom Line:  In making his decision, Oliver was only thinking of himself and what he wanted.  He was not thinking about what's best for William, and he certainly wasn't thinking of Felicity.

 

ETA: Samantha complained about Oliver's pre-island spoiled, womanizing persona and then demanded a promise from Oliver that would force Oliver to become that lying asshole again to his loved ones.  So tell me again, how is Samantha a good person?

Yup. And that makes what Thea said even more ridiculous because how is having a stranger coming to play with a kid once in a while what's best for him? The best for him would be to have a dad, not to associate men he doesn't know with play dates.

Also when she complained about that Oliver told her he isn't that person anymore and she answered "I know." So why asking him to lie? To make his life harder on purpose for no real reason?

[tv echo]

Midnight Lullaby, good points.  I'm going to add them to my summary above in the interests of completeness.

 

Samantha, as a character, would make a lot more sense if she was supposed to be a bad person - someone who is seeking revenge on Oliver and deliberately trying to sabotage his present-day life and relationships.  But, no, the EPs apparently are presenting her as a good mother and a good person.

Edited February 19, 2016 by tv echo

[lexicon]

It's not a lie, it's a promise he made to the mother of his child!!!

 

It was at this point in the ep, where Thea started to spout the same dumb line of reasoning that MG used in his tumblr responses/interviews post-4.08 ALMOST VERBATIM that I started to laugh.

 

Strangely that made me feel better because my ability to be amused by the blatant BTS reasons for what was being said and my willingness to handwave Thea's BS were actually eye opening. If I could be amused by Thea being forced to behave in such an OOC way in order to advance a SL that the EPs seem hell bent on doing, common sense and character motivation be damned, then why couldn't I use the same reasoning for Oliver's level of dumb post William reveal?

 

There's no reason why I couldn't because both characters are being forced to act in ways that are frankly stupid as they behave as though THE ONLY POSSIBLE OPTION to have both William and Felicity in Oliver's life while keeping William safe is to keep William's existence a secret from Felicity. 

 

I may have finally achieved a level of zen with this storyline and figured out a way for my love of Oliver Queen to continue unharmed by the blatant stupidity of his actions necessitated by it. I'm certainly not bothered by Thea's actions and don't feel as though her character has been irreparably harmed by it, since I could so clearly see the BTS reasoning behind it. I'm going to try to extend Oliver the same courtesy because it may be the only way for me to survive this story sanity intact.

[Guest]

I feel like maybe I'm in a minority because I still love Olicity and I enjoy all of their scenes together, even those that feel a little heavy handed. (That scene in 414 where Felicity thinks her first meeting with Oliver was romantic was just too much for me and didn't feel like Felicity AT ALL but I understand that they're trying to spotlight O/F's relationship before it blows up.)

 

And I absolutely think there's a way back from their inevitable break-up. I know many have wondered how they could ever repair it or come back from it but I think that Oliver has been forgiven for worse things. In this case he felt he had no choice. It's total garbage, of course, and I place the blame on the garbage human named Samantha for her unreasonable demand that you would never do to another woman if you were a decent woman yourself, but it's not like Oliver is doing this intentionally to hurt Felicity. 

 

I know Oliver mentioned that he's lying to keep William safe, which is partly true, but I also feel like there's the undercurrent of lying to ensure he doesn't lose Felicity. Barry did simplify their 408 argument into 'Tell Felicity the truth and you'll lose her.' So I do see it as him trying to have his cake and eat it right now. In his mind he thinks he's keeping his son safe while also keeping Felicity in his life. He's such a dummy.

 

I also don't think Thea's actions are irreparable. They just used the wrong character as their writer stand-in. She was OOC for the writing/plot and that's happened to every character on this show so I can let it pass. 

[bijoux]

I still enjoy them as well. I've just grown blase about the lie storyline. I want it to blow up in the open so I can laugh and point, but I am so far from mad that I can't even see it in my rear view mirror. This way I am left to fully appreciate moments like this and imagine how lame their future kid will find them when they're dropping him/her off at school for the first time.

 

 

Oh yeah, that's mom and dad over there. Synchronized wavers. God, I wished they let Aunt Thea take me.

[Delphi]

I as well have no problem enjoying the Olicity. This stupid plot is just a pothole for me. Bump in the road. I don't see it lasting long so I can mostly ignore it.

Same with Thea. Marc can use her as his advocate all he wants, I'm still going to enjoy Thea.

I think what really helps is that the actors don't seem to keen on it either. Similar to last season on OUaT with JMO flat out refusing to say she sacrificed herself for Regina. If the actors are like, "Yeah, this makes no sense." Then I can just agree with them and enjoy what I get.

[looptab]

I feel like maybe I'm in a minority because I still love Olicity and I enjoy all of their scenes together, even those that feel a little heavy handed. (That scene in 414 where Felicity thinks her first meeting with Oliver was romantic was just too much for me and didn't feel like Felicity AT ALL but I understand that they're trying to spotlight O/F's relationship before it blows up.)

 

Is that what she was saying? I thought she meant that him asking her to pull data off the laptop now, as in their first meeting, was romantic, not the first meeting itself. 

[apinknightmare]

Is that what she was saying? I thought she meant that him asking her to pull data off the laptop now, as in their first meeting, was romantic, not the first meeting itself. 

 

Yeah, I think it was a, "We met over a broken laptop, and you're still bringing them to me years later, how sweet" kind of thing. 

[looptab]

I'm kinda disappointed they referenced the first meeting now, instead of during the eventual reconciliation, haha.

[Chaser]

That was her first memory of him, maybe they will use his first memory of her next time. If he exactly remembers seeing her of course (at the moment I don't think he does, but you know these writers).

[Ann Mack]

This is the 2nd time Marc or whomever has used Thea to be the mouthpiece to justify a plot or try to convince the audience they didn't see what they saw or didn't hear what they heard! Remember she also said Captain Lance had been there especially after Moira died. Hmmm not sure how she came to that conclusion when Lance personally orchestrated the man-hunt to take down Oliver and taunted her when Roy went to prison as the Arrow allowing Oliver to be released from Lance's petty clutch. .

 

Wow that Lazarus Pit - not only do you come back with parts of other people's soul (or whatever Malcolm said) once you get dipped in it but you also come back with selective amnesia! 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ann Mack

[bijoux]

This is the 2nd time Marc or whomever has used Thea to be the mouthpiece to justify a plot or try to convince the audience they didn't see what they saw

 

She's still in the distand third place after Felicity and Dig. Maybe it's actually complimentary to how Thea is received? The collective we have assumed that Felicity and Dig caught stinkers because they were liked well enough for it to not reflect too badly on them.

[Guest]

Is that what she was saying? I thought she meant that him asking her to pull data off the laptop now, as in their first meeting, was romantic, not the first meeting itself.

I don't know. Could have been either way tbh. But I still thought it was OTT and not really Felicity.

[Midnight Lullaby]

She's still in the distand third place after Felicity and Dig. Maybe it's actually complimentary to how Thea is received? The collective we have assumed that Felicity and Dig caught stinkers because they were liked well enough for it to not reflect too badly on them.

I think yes and no. Meaning people don't mind her but aren't passionate about her in a positive or negative way. If LL or Lance would have validated the lie people would have been mad at them because the Lances aren't particularly loved. If it was Donna or Dig people would have been furious with the writers because they care about those characters and especially in this case regarding their relationship with Felicity. Thea was a safe choice because even if any sane person was annoyed by that utter hypocrisy still it got a less outraged reaction that other characters would have gotten.

[theacostov]

And the way Thea did not seem to give a damn about Felicity (who is now paralysed only because of her association with Oliver) being lied to for months (and am I just imagining things, or was there a slight contempt on Thea's part for Felicity in this episode?) seemed to indicate that when all this comes out, and Felicity gets rightfully angry, she's going to be made to look unreasonable.

Whilst I'm sure Thea likes Felicity (we know she was keeping tabs on Felicity during her surgery) we've never been shown that they're particularly close so maybe thats why she didn't even think about it from Felicity's perspective?

However the part where you said you read some contempt from Thea reminded me of a scene earlier in the season when Thea blew up at Oliver for leaving over the summer (can't remember the episode, can't check) and maybe Thea does have some resentment towards Felicity? Maybe it's even unconscious. Felicity is the one Oliver confided in years before he did Thea and he left her behind to be with Felicity after she was almost killed.

By not really establishing a relationship between Thea and Felicity they've left some things open for interpretation. I think it helped on this occasion because I didn't feel like it was a betrayal from Thea for not encouraging Oliver to tell Felicity (just incredibly stupid) which is what I would have felt if I thought they were good friends.

Edited February 21, 2016 by theacostov

[AyChihuahua]

I think yes and no. Meaning people don't mind her but aren't passionate about her in a positive or negative way. If LL or Lance would have validated the lie people would have been mad at them because the Lances aren't particularly loved. If it was Donna or Dig people would have been furious with the writers because they care about those characters and especially in this case regarding their relationship with Felicity. Thea was a safe choice because even if any sane person was annoyed by that utter hypocrisy still it got a less outraged reaction that other characters would have gotten.

I'm extremely glad it wasn't Digg or Donna. Like really super glad. In fact, if Digg and Donna destroy Oliver, the lying hag, and Thea over this, I'll tell Guggie "Good show!"

 

Okay, not Guggie, because I Good Wife hate him, but maybe Mericle.

[Password]

Tbh I don't think you need experience in a marriage to know lying to your spouse is bad regardless of the reasons. Thea was mad at Roy even though she knew he "cheated" on her because he was keeping secrets. The writing is at complete odds with Thea's past and shows a lack of maturity on her part if she really believes keeping this secret from Felicity is for the best.

I've seen quite a few reviews/people say Thea acted in a mature way and I'm just thinking "what? We didn't watch the same scene did we?" It may have shown growth that she didn't throw her toys out of the pram but it didn't show maturity because now she thinks lying is OK under certain circumstances.

Personally, I think the only reason she did it is because the writers need someone to validate Oliver's idiocy for whatever reason. Even though she's not seen as being close to Felicity, the show is betraying any sort of integrity to her character.

[Carrie Ann]

I would have hated the Thea/Oliver scene no matter what because it was such an obvious MG Sockpuppet situation, but it would have worked slightly better for me if Thea had actually made reference to her past intolerance for secrets/lies and how she's come to understand why people keep secrets to protect others, herself included. That still wouldn't actually apply to the Oliver/Felicity situation, but it at least wouldn't have made WM and OB seem so completely ignorant of Thea's entire history and characterization.

[looptab]

Let's not forget, Thea was the one who got all up in arms - and started making up stories about Captain Lance taking care of them after Moira's death - about Oliver  considering distancing himself from Laurel  for a political angle. But she was all self-righteous that he shouldn't act that way, because it was bad, bad, no good. 

I give up.

Edited February 21, 2016 by looptab

[kes0704]

I think I'm finding it hard to have any empathy for BM because the writers made her have such stupid demands to create this mess of a story in the first place. Though I guess that is part of the problem in that MG thinks the demands are entirely reasonable, whereas I think it was an awful way to introduce the character.

I get that her storyline is merely the mechanism being used to manufacture needless drama but I'm pretty sure they didn't want me to completely dislike her.

[dtissagirl]

Hilariously, after Oliver and Felicity break up, both BM and demons spawn lose their usefulness to the narrative. They stop being plot devices and become, well, nothing.

 

Then I remember Laurel doesn't have a narrative role and still exists, and I wanna cry for storytelling.

[Morrigan2575]

Hilariously, after Oliver and Felicity break up, both BM and demons spawn lose their usefulness to the narrative. They stop being plot devices and become, well, nothing.

Then I remember Laurel doesn't have a narrative role and still exists, and I wanna cry for storytelling.

I know people are hoping that the end result of kidnapped William and crazy demands Samantha is that they go off into ARGUS Witness protection never to be seen again. However, I can't help but feel that the writers will keep them around in the background. Just to pop them in and out of the story when convenient and then forget all about them until the next time.