Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, look, I don't hate Oliver as much as you, haha. But I understand your reasons for disliking him. He was an idiot for most of s3 and he made dumb questionable choices. I feel like everyone has a valid reason for the anger at him. I just didn't appreciate how it was expressed. 

I feel like I'm overall pretty objective about most of the characters, like even though I'm really pissed at Oliver I can still recognize and admit what he has actually done wrong v. what he has not.  But yeah, asking him back and then snotting at him about his pretty standard and non-ahole instructions was dumb.  

[statsgirl]

I think what I found super annoying about Team Arrow-less in 4x01 other than they basically ignored Felicity's existence even though she had been helping them for months, is that they said they needed Oliver's help and then when he tries to give it to them, they stomp him down.  You know, there's a reason the Hood/Arrow was so successful for three years and it wasn't just because he could shoot arrows.  The Team already has enough muscle without experience in Laurel and Thea, given how difficult the ghosts are, what they really needed was Oliver's brain power and that's what they were rejecting.

 

That Cisco comment was kind of typical and heavy handed. Loves BLACK Canary but doesn't like GREEN Arrow. Okay, AK. Okay.

AK also loves the Black Canary.

 

Between that remark and telling Jay he could keep the Sand Demon name because it was cool but don't try naming anything else, I just wanted to smack Cisco. Hard.  I guess I just hate arrogance and Cisco crossed the line from cute to arrogant sometime last season.

[dtissagirl]

They built a story structure that made sure Team Arrowless couldn't have done it without Oliver and Felicity, because they needed to give the two of them a solid reason to decide to stay in town at the end of the episode. If Team Arrowless were great at the job, OR if Oliver and Felicity's help was either temporary or superfluous, that's it -- O/F could have gone back to Stepford Creepers.

 

I don't have any problem with Team Arrowless fumbling and bumbling, so I accept that premise from the start. The idea of watching Team Arrowless for more than the 5 minutes we got gives me the yawns.

 

And the way they went about getting O/F back -- by having Laurel and Thea go behind Diggle's back to ask Oliver for help -- pretty much made it so that they had to be RIGHT in the decision to betray Diggle's trust like that. If they brought Oliver back, and it turned out all they needed from him was minimal peripheral help, then Thea and Laurel went against Diggle for nothing.

 

And this particular plot point is about setting up Diggle's story, and the Dig-Oliver rift. I mean, Dig's 100% right in being pissed at Oliver. But he's wrong if they are in way over their heads, and he's letting his [super legitimate] personal grievances get in the way of the mission.

 

Considering they also made it a plot point that Dig is hiding the stuff he knows about HIVE from the others, they WERE setting Dig up to be wrong here. Maybe his pride is getting in his way, I don't know. It's too early to tell. But all of that made complete sense to me.

Edited October 14, 2015 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

I noticed (and bristled at first) too the rest of the team basically never speaking to Felicity, but I chalked that up to the fact that, since she was already helping them, they didn't have much convincing to do. Sure, for the sake of appearances they could have said we need you both back, but whatever, I can overlook it. Just this time.

[AyChihuahua]

For the record, although I am 100% on Digg's side in being pissed as hell at Oliver over Oliver's S3 BS, I do think the "You can't love" comment was ridiculous.  Not because it was too far, because as far as I'm concerned nothing other than letting Oliver die/be injured is too far after what Oliver did, but because it was inaccurate and made Digg seem silly.  He really should have stuck to the trust thing.  Or, you know, for perfect accuracy, just called Oliver a moronic controlling ahole.

[statsgirl]

Considering they also made it a plot point that Dig is hiding the stuff he knows about HIVE from the others, they WERE setting Dig up to be wrong here. Maybe his pride is getting in his way, I don't know. It's too early to tell. But all of that made complete sense to me.

I like the opportunity for both Diggle and Quentin to learn what it's like to be in Oliver's shoes for a change, with Diggle in keeping secrets that get you in trouble with your friends and for Quentin to lose the moral high ground he's so invested in standing on.

 

But I wish they hadn't made Laurel and even Thea ungrateful snots to Oliver in the process.

[KirkB]

The whole "you can't love thing" makes Diggle seem petty, especially when you consider The and Laurel basically had to drag Oliver kicking and screaming from his love nest with Felicity. Diggle has every reason to be pissed at Oliver. What Oliver did isn't the kind of thing you can just get over easily, regardless of the reasons, and there should be tension between them for a while.

 

But I disagree with some people who had issues with Team Arrowlesses cold response to Oliver after he came back at their request. They wanted his help with logistics and tactics, which Diggle was probably trying to provide but was being mostly ignored by Thea and Laurel. What they didn't want was for him to walk in and start barking orders. He wasn't their leader anymore, Diggle was. They wanted a consultant. To his credit, Oliver very quickly recognized this and backed off but I do understand why the others reacted how they did.

Edited October 14, 2015 by KirkB

[Guest]

AK also loves the Black Canary.

 

I know. That's why it was so obvious and heavy handed. Doing all these things is not going to make me like BC any quicker so just stop. It'll actually have the opposite effect. It's like I said yesterday, stop telling me these things and show me, let her actions speak for themselves. 

 

 

I like the opportunity for both Diggle and Quentin to learn what it's like to be in Oliver's shoes for a change, with Diggle in keeping secrets that get you in trouble with your friends and for Quentin to lose the moral high ground he's so invested in standing on.

 

But I wish they hadn't made Laurel and even Thea ungrateful snots to Oliver in the process.

 

I am all for Diggle and Quentin having to make tough decisions. And I am still on Diggle's side. He has every reason to be mad. But his one comment of 'You don't trust, you don't love' was absolutely ridiculous, untrue and too far. I do accept that he was lashing out and trying to be hurtful, at least that's how I've hand waved it. I do wonder if that wasn't their intent but whatever. That's how I'm viewing it. I don't believe Diggle really believes that.

 

But Thea and Laurel, on the other hand, were the ones who discussed bringing Oliver back and then acted like pissy bratty a-holes when they got exactly what they wanted - Oliver's help. I can understand Laurel, to an extent, but when everything Oliver did last season was basically to help save Thea, I bristle at her behavior tbh. I'm chalking it up to the LP right now. We'll see how it goes.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Guest

[Carrie Ann]

But I disagree with some people who had issues with Team Arrowlesses cold response to Oliver after he came back at their request. They wanted his help with logistics and tactics, which Diggle was probably trying to provide but was being mostly ignored by Thea and Laurel. What they didn't want was for him to walk in and start barking orders. He wasn't their leader anymore, Diggle was. They wanted a consultant. To his credit, Oliver very quickly recognized this and backed off but I do understand why the others reacted how they did.

 

I kind of disagree that they wanted a consultant. They knew Dig wouldn't want to work with him, so if they DID really see John as the leader, they wouldn't have brought Oliver in. I think they wanted Oliver, specifically, for his tactical, leadership, and fighting abilities. That (apparently) doesn't mean that they wanted him back in his old role as head of his own team.

 

But I do think that barking orders/incredulous stares scene was poorly thought-out. It does appear that they are bristling at Oliver coming in and doing the exact thing they begged him to do for them. If all they were reacting to was his tone, or his immediate assumption of leadership, it would have been better to play the scene as is (except maybe some of the snottiness could be left out of L & T's reaction shots), but then have Laurel and Thea laugh a little after he apologizes, and affirm that his immediate plan is good (which it apparently is, given that they turn around and enact it). That makes everyone seem better--Oliver's already apologized for any possible stepping on toes, and they've acknowledged that they needed him for exactly this, and everyone is friendlier and not so shitty to OQ.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

But I disagree with some people who had issues with Team Arrowlesses cold response to Oliver after he came back at their request. They wanted his help with logistics and tactics, which Diggle was probably trying to provide but was being mostly ignored by Thea and Laurel. What they didn't want was for him to walk in and start barking orders. He wasn't their leader anymore, Diggle was. They wanted a consultant. To his credit, Oliver very quickly recognized this and backed off but I do understand why the others reacted how they did.

They asked for his help, period, because they couldn't get the job done on their own. There weren't any conditions on it. I think it's a stupid response on Laurel and Thea's part, but my initial complaint about it was that it was allegedly set up to show that the "team" is a democracy now, but then had Laurel look to Digg for approval (which he gave her). So it didn't seem like a democracy so much as a transfer of power. There were better ways to show that they don't need or want a leader anymore.

Edited October 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I thought Thea's reaction to Oliver's orders was fine. Laurel and Dig looked pissed, but while Thea crossed her arms exactly like Laurel and Dig, I didn't get HOW DARE YOU?! vibes from her. And then after the other two leave, she tells Oliver "they'll come around", which means she accepts his presence.

 

She was a brat to him in the train station, though.

[statsgirl]

This show really likes to punish Oliver, or maybe MG does, and I saw the scene as punishing Oliver for leaving, just as they punished him for "leaving" when he got stabbed by Ra's al Ghul up on the mountain.  "You left us Oliver and so you've lost your place as leader of the team".  Remember everyone telling Oliver he's not the boss of them in Canaries?

 

I think the writers did mean it to be a democracy now but of course that's ridiculous because Laurel and Thea have barely any experience so after their democratic move (2 vs 1) behind Diggle's back of getting Oliver back, Laurel has to ask Digg for his approval of the move.

 

Anyone interested in taking bets how long it's going to last before Oliver is running the show again?  Not only because it's his name on the title but because he's got not only the experience and physical skills but because he's got the out-of-the-box thinking necessary to beat DD.  I'd say it's going to take just until Diggle gets in over his head with HIVE, but we'll have Oliver and Diggle co-leading within the next couple of episodes.

[tangerine95]

My guess is until Oliver and Diggle are on decent terms at least so maybe after episode 3.After Cannaries the next episode was Oliver back to being the leader.The whole team is equal thing just isn't something that can last,someone needs to give the orders.They don't have time for a team vote over every little thing.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Thea's reaction to Oliver's orders was fine. Laurel and Dig looked pissed, but while Thea crossed her arms exactly like Laurel and Dig, I didn't get HOW DARE YOU?! vibes from her. And then after the other two leave, she tells Oliver "they'll come around", which means she accepts his presence.

 

She was a brat to him in the train station, though.

She was a brat to Oliver in the train station but I'm pretty sure that was done for a reason.  She sounded angry but also deflecting, it came across to me as a defense mechanism 

[Primal Slayer]

I was fine with Laurel and Diggles reaction to Oliver since to them it felt like Oliver was trying to be the boss again when that's not why Laurel/Thea asked him back and of course Diggle wasn't going to have it. Oliver just came across to them wrong.

And Diggle was the team leader but Laurel/Thea all stood on equal ground with him from the looks of it. Of course we weren't really shown it that much but they seemed to go with what ever the best option was for depending on the situation. Diggle instructed them in the beginning then Laurel rallied them when the council was being targeted.

My guess is until Oliver and Diggle are on decent terms at least so maybe after episode 3.After Cannaries the next episode was Oliver back to being the leader.The whole team is equal thing just isn't something that can last,someone needs to give the orders.They don't have time for a team vote over every little thing.

They can be equals and still have a leader. Just people would have more say in the day2day operations and voice their objections when they have time. They aren't going to go into battle and Oliver tells them "to your left!" But they are going to their right just to spite him.

[Guest]

Yeah, I should clarify, I only thought Thea was a brat at the train station and I'm pretty sure that's because of the LP. But it was still crappy considering everything Oliver did in s3 was for her, even if he made the dumbest decisions ever.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

She was a brat to Oliver in the train station but I'm pretty sure that was done for a reason.  She sounded angry but also deflecting, it came across to me as a defense mechanism 

 

Yeah. What I can't decide is if Thea's been actively hiding the violent bursts from Dig and Laurel, or if she's so loopy that she can't see there's something wrong, so she took Oliver's words as over-protecting/coddling.

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah, I should clarify, I only thought Thea was a brat at the train station and I'm pretty sure that's because of the LP. But it was still crappy considering everything Oliver did in s3 was for her, even if he made the dumbest decisions ever.

I just chalked it up siblings will be siblings. Oliver will always try to do what he thinks is best for his little sister and his little sister will not want to hear it since she wants to be treated as an adult and an equal.

[lemotomato]

And Diggle was the team leader but Laurel/Thea all stood on equal ground with him from the looks of it.

But why should Laurel and Thea be on equal ground with Diggle? They don't have his tactical and strategic experience. He's been crime fighting for 3 years on top of his military tours and I'm supposed to accept that Laurel and Thea are his equals? Nope!

[apinknightmare]

And Diggle was the team leader but Laurel/Thea all stood on equal ground with him from the looks of it. Of course we weren't really shown it that much but they seemed to go with what ever the best option was for depending on the situation. Diggle instructed them in the beginning then Laurel rallied them when the council was being targeted.

And then Thea/Laurel went behind Digg's back to get Oliver's help, since they disagreed about them being able to handle things themselves. Seems like a mess to me-hopefully they tighten that up throughout the season.

[Guest]

I just chalked it up siblings will be siblings. Oliver will always try to do what he thinks is best for his little sister and his little sister will not want to hear it since she wants to be treated as an adult and an equal.

 

Yeah, they're siblings and of course they're gonna act like that. But it would have been better if Thea had said something like 'I appreciate your concern' or 'I know you're just looking out for me' and yet she accused him of lecturing her. It didn't sit well with me.

[Primal Slayer]

But why should Laurel and Thea be on equal ground with Diggle? They don't have his tactical and strategic experience. He's been crime fighting for 3 years on top of his military tours and I'm supposed to accept that Laurel and Thea are his equals? Nope!

To each their own. Laurel/Thea let Diggle take lead in the battlefield but outside of it they are (i assume) are able to discuss the best way to do things. Laurel/Thea didn't agree with Diggle about needing help and they got help, he wasn't happy about it but he probably respects their decision to do so.

[tangerine95]

I just don't know when Oliver was a dictator that he's being presented as.Diggle and Felicity always voiced their opinion and got a say in how things were done.He called them his partners and they stood up to him all the time.So I don't see what needs to change other then IMO Oliver should stop thinking the solution to every problem is sacrificing himself and he should allow people to help him more.

But they didn't present that as the problem.The team had a problem with him telling them to do things like call Lance or patrol the streets which are orders that make sense and someone has to give them.Since they couldn't solve the problem on their own and called Oliver it makes sense he tells them where to start.He wasn't even being rude about it,they were the ones treating him like crap after asking for his help.

[Primal Slayer]

And then Thea/Laurel went behind Digg's back to get Oliver's help, since they disagreed about them being able to handle things themselves. Seems like a mess to me-hopefully they tighten that up throughout the season.

There will always be disagreements when it is more then 1 person but 1 person does not control the team anymore and group majority will win out.

[apinknightmare]

There will always be disagreements when it is more then 1 person but 1 person does not control the team anymore and group majority will win out.

And this episode showed none of that? It showed Thea and Laurel going behind Diggle's back when they didn't agree with him-instead of hashing it out- which does not a good/successful team make. Which was the point of my comment-I hope they work on that as the season goes on.

[kismet]

Even if they wanted OQ as only a consultant, they still failed at that. He came in asking to see what intel they had collected. I think he would have been fine being a consultant. But they literally had nothing to give him, which is why he defaulted into leadership mode. If you are asking for help, at least have some concrete or even a plan that he can help out with. But they had NOTHING! And then gave him attitude when he accidentally slipped into old habits to get the job done.

 

It reminded me of a situation at work a few weeks ago. Someone was transferred from an outside hospital because they felt it was out of their expertise, which was appropriate. What was inappropriate and frustrating was that they sent the patient with absolutely no information about what they had done. No scans, images, reports, notes - nada. All they sent was the patient and a 1 page undetailed summary. The patient wound up having a serious complication from a major surgery he had had in the other hospital the week prior, that they had forgotten to tell us about. When the patient became symptomatic and we were calling the other hospital, they started to get all pissy & judgemental, and claimed they couldn't send the information because it was after hours. All the sudden, we were being too demanding. It's ludacris, they asked for help, didn't provide the necessary information and then acted like we were overstepping. So it happens in other fields too, even when it might be only a second opinion or consulting work.

 

I get it they didn't want OQ the leader, but then have some information for him to work with. Have a plan in place. They had nothing, and the few leads they had came from FS, so yeah I find it a litte obnoxious that they writers tried to paint OQ as overstepping. And if the new Team Arrow had an issue with it, there are ways to handle it other than making pissy faces & comments. Nevermind, OQ immediately apologized. I agree with the others that said they could have laughed off his response. I really don't know what the writers intention was to make the new TA seem like incompetant jerks or OQ the overbearing consultant. It was a poor writing choice either way.

[Guest]

I just don't know when Oliver was a dictator that he's being presented as.Diggle and Felicity always voiced their opinion and got a say in how things were done.He called them his partners and they stood up to him all the time.So I don't see what needs to change other then IMO Oliver should stop thinking the solution to every problem is sacrificing himself and he should allow people to help him more.

 

I wouldn't say Oliver was a dictator but there were times when he only gave Felicity and Diggle information on a need-to-know basis and only when he was ready which perhaps wasn't best for the team. They needed to know all the information if they were gonna work out a plan of action and Oliver keeping things close to his chest didn't always work. Often Diggle would ask "Oliver, when are you gonna tell me….blah blah blah" and Oliver would sometimes just walk away. I especially remember that in 208 and he hadn't yet told them he'd dealt with Mirakuru soldiers.

 

Before the mess of s3 he did get better and he respected Diggle and Felicity as partners eventually but Oliver has always needed to become a better team player. But I still think he should be the team leader, and when he's not it should be Diggle. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah I agree he has trust issues but a lot of that was also plot reason.They wouldn't reveal something in the present until they got there in the flashbacks.Like in this episode with him saying he dealt with magic or something before but not explaining probably until they can get there in the flashbacks or its the right time for the plot.

He does need to be a better team player but he still has the most skill and experience so he makes sense as a leader.Thea and Laurel with their less then a year of crime fighting make no sense as equals to Oliver or Diggle.

[dtissagirl]

It was specially hilarious to have Diggle go all "BAH HUMBUG typical Oliver hiding crap from us" in THIS EPISODE re: mystical things, and then he goes and stands there having a flashback* to Deadshot telling him about HIVE, and goes "oh, nevermind me, I was standing here zoning out for nothing, haha I know nothing, BYE!"

 

 

*During which I'm assuming Oliver was waving a hand in front of his face, while everyone else was calling "DIGGLE! DIGGLE! ARE YOU OKAY? You're frozen in place doing nothing for many many seconds!"... and possibly calling 911 to report their friend might have been having a seizure.

[Primal Slayer]

And this episode showed none of that? It showed Thea and Laurel going behind Diggle's back when they didn't agree with him-instead of hashing it out- which does not a good/successful team make. Which was the point of my comment-I hope they work on that as the season goes on.

Of course, i just try to see the reasoning behind it. I would love if they fully explored that and actually show it to us but im so used to filling in the blanks now that i learn to turn a blind eye to it.

[statsgirl]

But I disagree with some people who had issues with Team Arrowlesses cold response to Oliver after he came back at their request. They wanted his help with logistics and tactics, which Diggle was probably trying to provide but was being mostly ignored by Thea and Laurel. What they didn't want was for him to walk in and start barking orders.

 

What exactly did they think a consultant does?  Did they expect Oliver to raise his hand for permission to speak?

A consultant comes in and starts telling what information they need and then what to do and how to do it.  The option then is to take the advice or not take it but Team Arrowless was stuck and had no information and Oliver, while barking orders in a way they didn't like, was doing what they needed to do to unstuck them.

 

If you're stuck and you call in a guy who knows more than you do to help, it's stupid to get angry at him for telling you what he knows.

 

I will give Diggle a partial pass for stupidity in thinking he could handle this without Oliver because of last season, and I will give Thea a partial pass for typical younger sibling behaviour, but what's Laurel's excuse?

 

I just don't know when Oliver was a dictator that he's being presented as.Diggle and Felicity always voiced their opinion and got a say in how things were done.He called them his partners and they stood up to him all the time.So I don't see what needs to change other then IMO Oliver should stop thinking the solution to every problem is sacrificing himself and he should allow people to help him more.

Exactly.  One of the things that made Oliver a good leader is that he always listened when one of his partners had a different idea, even back when Diggle got him to pay for the medical costs of the cop who was shot by the Royal Flush Gang or Felicity suggesting they go after someone else as soon as she joined.

 

Thea and Laurel have a lot to learn about working with an alpha-male.

Edited October 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

What exactly did they think a consultant does?  Did they expect Oliver to raise his hand for permission to speak?

A consultant comes in and starts telling what information they need and then what to do and how to do it.  The option then is to take the advice or not take it but Team Arrowless was stuck and had no information and Oliver, while barking orders in a way they didn't like, was doing what they needed to do to unstuck them.

If you're stuck and you call in a guy who knows more than you do to help, it's stupid to get angry at him for telling you what he knows.

 

I agree with you. The thing is, I don't think Thea and Laurel were angry with him for doing what they asked him to, since they went ahead and did it. I think they were more surprised that he just jumped into giving them orders like he expected them to obey. Diggle is another matter. His anger toward Oliver was more obvious and justified, not to mention he was probably upset with Laurel and Thea for going behind his back. If there had been a scene where the three of them were talking, with Thea and Laurel on the same side saying "we need him" and Diggle disagreeing, then making a point of him being outvoted before they show up at the love shack, rather than apparently sneaking out and dropping Oliver in his lap like the worst Christmas present ever, it might have gone better.

Edited October 14, 2015 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

Diggle is the one person whose actions I understood since 1. he was still angry at Oliver for the Lyla affair; 2. he had tactical and vigilante experience and 3. he had already told Thea and Laurel they didn't need Oliver.

 

I had a problem with Laurel and Thea's "You aren't the boss of me" attitude when Oliver started telling everyone what to do.  I understand the writers wanted to make the point that the Team was now a democracy since Oliver had left and he's going to have to adapt but it was very clumsy.

[bijoux]

I wouldn't say Oliver was a dictator but there were times when he only gave Felicity and Diggle information on a need-to-know basis and only when he was ready which perhaps wasn't best for the team. They needed to know all the information if they were gonna work out a plan of action and Oliver keeping things close to his chest didn't always work. Often Diggle would ask "Oliver, when are you gonna tell me….blah blah blah" and Oliver would sometimes just walk away. I especially remember that in 208 and he hadn't yet told them he'd dealt with Mirakuru soldiers.

 

 

Yeah I agree he has trust issues but a lot of that was also plot reason.They wouldn't reveal something in the present until they got there in the flashbacks.Like in this episode with him saying he dealt with magic or something before but not explaining probably until they can get there in the flashbacks or its the right time for the plot.

 

This is exactly what I thought. Here we have Nu!Oliver who doesn't want to step on anyone's toes by taking lead, but hello, here's Old!Oliver who doesn't tell the team crucial information. And I get that it's because of the flashbacks but couldn't it have been played like him saying, "Yes, here's what I know. I don't know if it will help, but here we go," and cutting away. So the team would know at least something but we the audience wouldn't.

 

I will give Diggle a partial pass for stupidity in thinking he could handle this without Oliver because of last season, and I will give Thea a partial pass for typical younger sibling behaviour, but what's Laurel's excuse?

She's Laurel, it's her MO. I got tired of thinking about the reasons behind it.

[dtissagirl]

Here we have Nu!Oliver

 

I apologize for derailing, and for being a 12 year old boy, but "nu" = naked in Portuguese. I can do nuMetal and nu52, but nu!People just mean naked people.

 

SORRY.

 

:)

[Chaser]

Hehe...NakedOliver

[bijoux]

Okay, I can roll with that.

[Chaser]

Okay, I can roll with that.

That's what Felicity said.

[dtissagirl]

I <3 you guys.

[dtissagirl]

Which is weird because Oliver probably already had strong feelings for Felicity at this point, although I don't think he fully realized or acknowledged it to himself.

I really think he was already gone, yes. And I agree he wasn't acknowledging it to himself at all... and then Felicity was disappointed in him for sleeping with Isabel, and he had to think about it, haha. He's in love with a girl he thinks is unattainable for several reasons. He doesn't even know how to have actual relationships. That flight back from Russia must have been AWESOME for his head space.

 

And for me as a viewer, the moment he stopped denying it WAS the "because of the life that I lead" line. That scene is all miscommunication and what wasn't said. What Oliver is really saying is "I can't be with you for [somewhat valid reasons]". Which Felicity not only didn't get, because at that point she had no idea he had feelings for her, but when she told him "you could do better", Oliver was actively faced with the reality that he could, and it was right in front of him, but he wasn't gonna do anything about it for [reasons].

 

And then HE KILLED THE COUNT FOR FELICITY. Except then, in the very next episode, ooops, Felicity was all about Barry.  And then Felicity keeps being all about Barry, and tells Oliver to his face, hahahaha that she gets ONE guy interest and he's in a coma, and Oliver is there all "WHAT AM I, CHOPPED LIVER?" But instead he says "Maybe he's dreaming about you". Talk about projecting there, dude. But he gives up even the dream right then.

 

I just really really love the set up? I mean, it was dumb that they had to stall the development of their relationship for THIRTY EPISODES because these writers are the worst, but at least for me, they set it all up brilliantly in 2A.

 

Tl,dr: Stephen even said at some con that 2x06 is when Oliver cops to his feelings for Felicity, and since that gels with my head canon, I accept it.

[Guest]

I agree. Actually reading it all written out like that makes me love their original development even more. I love that gifset of O/F going around with the P&P quote "I was in the middle before I knew that I had begun" because it's just so accurate for Oliver's feelings. He was totally gone before he even knew about it and only when he stopped to think that he was like 'Oh…huh.'

 

His face when Felicity saw Isabel leave his hotel room in 206 just said it all to me. You're not upset or annoyed that a friend has seen your 'one night stand' leave if that person is just a friend. Why would he care otherwise?

 

Aaaaaaah. I love them so much.

[dtissagirl]

I really truly love the MTV staff's love for Oliver and Felicity:

 

http://www.mtv.com/news/2350638/oliver-queen-arrow-felicity-fern/?xrs=_s.tw_news

[Password]

My favourite part about that exchange is the "who are you?"

Felicity's voice goes deep from the high and excited pitch about being CEO.

[statsgirl]

I love that that MTV article was written by a guy.

 

From the Felicity thread:

Like @bijoux said, I think it was primarily a turned on thing that he covered with a defense mechanism or his bad communication skills. It did not seem to be about protection or concern thing that she was going to want to go out in the field. Because he had no problem with her doing field work before in certain situations. It also to me didn't seem like he was trying to keep her in "her role" because of some machismo or anything like that. He was just surprised by what she was wearing, since he was starting to pay a lot more attention to what she was wearing.

 

Perhaps he was partially concerned though about having another newbie in the field. He cared about Roy the newbie and was concerned that he could get hurt. So maybe a part of him was concerned that she would want to be a fighter, and that could lead to her getting get hurt. Also losing her tech skills would put the team at a disadvantage. Her behind a computer is where her skills made the most tactical sense for success, and OQ is a tactical strategist. But now she might as well go in the field, since inexperience and lack of tactical planning is all the new rage on democratic TA.

 

If he was starting to have deep feelings for her, it would make sense that he would not want her in the field if she was not properly trained and could be a liability to herself or others. Nobody wants their loved ones to be in danger, if they can prevent it. But he has taken her out in the field multiple times in s1&2, and never really questioned or yelled at her for going out by herself in the field. The exception being the Tockman incident & even then it was not that she went into the field, it was that she didn't tell him, so it became a plan/team liability thing. But in the end, he told her she was always his girl - she as a person is his priority and concern, not her skill set. However, if she had demanded more training for whatever reason, even to possibly go into the field, I'm sure he would have provided the training. Because let's face it, he generally does whatever she asks. Which is why she will definitely get a code name.

It would be lovely to think that this was true.  But I can't.

 

If you look at s1, there were times when Oliver was downright mean to Felicity.  Not "I'm trying to push you away because of my feelings" mean but "I don't think of you as a person" mean.  Look at the "codebreaker" scene in 1x16.  Felicity figures out that the phone call was to a Chinese restaurant they identify as part of the mob.  Oliver tells her to get him reservations for two, as if she's his secretary, and leaves, telling her to hurry up and get that code broken.  No thanks, no "I'll bring back some food for you".  Granted there were reasons (severe PTSD, fixation on Laurel) but still.

 

I hate the "You'll always be my girl" line because it feel like he's talking down to her. The guy didn't even realize she was upset. Diggle had to point it out to him.  Felicity is so completely off his radar in that episode except when she's stepping out of the box he's put her in, it's not even funny.  With all due respect to SA, Oliver may have realized that he had feelings for Felicity in 2x06 but in 2x13 she was at best sixth on his list of priorities, after Sara, Laurel, Tockman, Arrow work and QC.

[Guest]

If you look at s1, there were times when Oliver was downright mean to Felicity.  Not "I'm trying to push you away because of my feelings" mean but "I don't think of you as a person" mean.  Look at the "codebreaker" scene in 1x16.  Felicity figures out that the phone call was to a Chinese restaurant they identify as part of the mob.  Oliver tells her to get him reservations for two, as if she's his secretary, and leaves, telling her to hurry up and get that code broken.  No thanks, no "I'll bring back some food for you".  Granted there were reasons (severe PTSD, fixation on Laurel) but still.

 

I hate the "You'll always be my girl" line because it feel like he's talking down to her. The guy didn't even realize she was upset. Diggle had to point it out to him.  Felicity is so completely off his radar in that episode except when she's stepping out of the box he's put her in, it's not even funny.  With all due respect to SA, Oliver may have realized that he had feelings for Felicity in 2x06 but in 2x13 she was at best sixth on his list of priorities, after Sara, Laurel, Tockman, Arrow work and QC.

 

I think his behavior was true for s1 but not s2. I do agree that Felicity seemed like an afterthought to Oliver in 214 but that was intentional for the sake of plot. Weren't a lot of people pointing out how weird it was that Oliver didn't notice something was up with Felicity? I remember thinking it was strange and how contrived that felt. I also hand waved it tbh because it gave us some lovely Diggle/Felicity supportive friendship scenes which now seem to be non-existent. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

Weren't a lot of people pointing out how weird it was that Oliver didn't notice something was up with Felicity? I remember thinking it was strange and how contrived that felt.

 

Yup. Especially since in the previous episode, he knew something was up with her, and he insisted she could tell him. "You're not gonna lose me" and all.

 

I can easily handwave 214 because it's the first episode after they hooked up Oliver and Sara, and now they had to sell that Oliver and Felicity were just super platonic friends with no attraction whatsoever, no, really, Oliver is with Sara now, audience! Stop projecting the O/F for the next three months or else the finale gotcha won't getcha.

[Password]

My biggest complaint for this season so far is the lack of Diggle-Felicity relationship. I was CONNED in the second half of season 2 into believing they had a beautiful friendship. Conned.

[Happy Harpy]

My biggest complaint for this season so far is the lack of Diggle-Felicity relationship. I was CONNED in the second half of season 2 into believing they had a beautiful friendship. Conned.

Especially considering that in the worst parts of S2 (imo), like the PodPeople episode, and (from what I hear) of S3, the Diggle/Felicity friendship was the only saving grace. I love when he was looking after her in his car and she went to talk to him in her pajamas. (Edit: OMG, I hope that the D/L car scene in the last episode wasn't supposed to echo that one, because wrong and fail and just no.)

Seriously, why I can't I get a full season of OTA working in perfect harmony? I really didn't have the time to get tired of it, and when I see the good stuff, I just know I'm in for the long haul with them. So WHY?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[wingster55]

To be honest...how often did we see the Diggle-Felicity friendship? I can really list only a handful of times where that was shown. 

[Delphi]

Hmm, they bonded in the Odyssey. The hijinks at Merlyn Global, going out for belly burger. While he was guarding her from slade. To name a few. I'm on mobile so I don't feel like cross referencing for more. I'm sure wonderwall will do it for me soon enough.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Delphi