Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[CabotCove]

I don't know that I see Helena as a healthy, viable partner for Oliver long-term, but I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a reformed Helena. I wasn't a fan of JDG's acting in her S1 appearances or her stint on Dracula, but I really enjoyed that final scene with Oliver in S2 where she was more lost and vulnerable.

 

 I thought  the two actors/characters have strong chemistry in season 1,  but Im not sure how they can come back after all thats happened. They went too far with Helena, but H/O is still  nowhere near the toxicity of Oliver/Laurel, Nyssa/Sara, Roy/Thea, if those can be treated as some epic love then I definately wouldnt mind Oliver/Helena getting another try. I would rather have Helena/Oliver than either of those 3.  But it would have to be, for the benefit of those two characters involved and their story told, not to be an Olicity "love barrier", otherwise really dont do it all. And also with some strong Huntress reform as a character. 

 

I don't think Sara said that Oliver deserves better than her, but she definitely implied that she's just not the right one for him. While a lot of people think that they belong together they're just two broken souls who understand what each other went through, I don't think that, that's what makes a good relationship. Sara just told Oliver that he needs someone who makes him feel less broken, to make him see the good in himself (thus the light). It's not that Sara doesn't deserve Oliver, it's that Sara thinks Oliver deserves to be in a less screwed up relationship.

 

 I dont agree with the assumption that "broken souls" can't have a good relationship, and even be able to heal and find happiness with each other. Im sure in RL it does happen, so why cant that be adapted in fiction. Not every relationship has to be the same, there is no one manual that fits all. And if Oliver needed "the light", then why couldnt Sara have one too, that what Oliver was to her. Now without him offering his support and encouragement she has gone back to a life of darkness. Oliver does not always have to be the one needing the light, he could be the one giving it to someone, he has shown he is capable of it, with Sara, with Helena. Platonically he is also mentoring Roy. The Oliver of season 1 might not necessarily be the Oliver of season 5. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Conell

[Carrie Ann]

I dont agree with the assumption that "broken souls" can't have a good relationship, and even be able to heal and find happiness with each other. Im sure in RL it does happen, so why cant that be adapted in fiction. Not every relationship has to be the same, there is no one manual that fits all. And if Oliver needed "the light", then why couldnt Sara have one too, that what Oliver was to her. Now without him offering his support and encouragement she has gone back to a life of darkness. Oliver does not always have to be the one needing the light, he could be the one giving it to someone, he has shown he is capable of it, with Sara, with Helena. Platonically he is also mentoring Roy. The Oliver of season 1 might not necessarily be the Oliver of season 5. 

I agree, and both the S/O relationship and breakup made sense to me. I think Oliver's not thinking in terms of a normal, stable relationship (moving in together) made Sara realize that probably neither of them were in the right place to be together, in many ways. And I think the reasoning she actually gave him made sense too--it's like two people in the fairly early stages of recovery trying to be together. I think she sees that he's further on the path, and she just isn't, and she didn't want to be something that brought him down. I thought that was awesome. Sara fucking rocks, period.

 

Last season, Oliver was WAY too young in his recovery to try to help Helena with hers, and there were consequences. He's screwed up rather soundly in his mentoring of Roy, which again is an example of trying to put the oxygen mask on someone else before securing his own. I mean, he should help Roy as he can, for sure, but he's still becoming a hero, and is going to make a lot of mistakes along the way.

 

But down the line, I think either of those relationships could be viable, depending on the growth of the characters. I'm personally an Olicity fan, but I can't believe that is the only love story in Oliver's future from now until the end of the series. With that in mind, I like to see the characters in relationships that are compelling and complex, that tell me something about the characters themselves that fits with what is going on with them generally. That's what Helena and then Sara did, for me.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[writersblock51]

 

And I think the reasoning she actually gave him made sense too--it's like two people in the fairly early stages of recovery trying to be together. I think she sees that he's further on the path, and she just isn't, and she didn't want to be something that brought him down. I thought that was awesome. Sara fucking rocks, period.

 

I loved Sara's poise & openness in that scene (and I thought CL did a very good job, too) - I happened to agree with her reasoning, too. 

 

The shame of the finale was that I think her farewells to her father and sister ran counter to what she told Oliver.  When she talked to Oliver, I didn't get the sense that she saw her destiny as purely one of an assassin - merely that she'd been so far down the rabbit hole that she had a longer way to get back.  Flash forward to her going to the LoA and it just bugs the hell out of me.  In a matter of, what?, 2 episodes, she's gone from a profound sense of self-awareness and knowing what's right for both her AND Oliver (at that time) to sliding back to a lifestyle that she tried to commit suicide to avoid.

[Password]

In a matter of, what?, 2 episodes, she's gone from a profound sense of self-awareness and knowing what's right for both her AND Oliver (at that time) to sliding back to a lifestyle that she tried to commit suicide to avoid.

 

It really makes no sense when you think about it because it's like they're telling us she decided she's not cut out for the "normal" life with Oliver. And that being an assassin is a better alternative than trying to become better and be something else because that life wrecked her soul. I guess her returning was the only way they would help, but I didn't see enough reservation from her to show me she particularly hated it. She was so accepting it was frightening.

[doesntworkonwood]

I think everyone saw the Sara/Oliver break up coming from a mile away. From what I saw online, people were speculating that it would be over their different approaches to killing. When I first watched the episode, the 'previously' bit showed Sara talking about it, and I knew that they were going to split up straight away. (Before that episode though, I thought that they might keep the relationship until the finale)

The thing that didn't work for me for both Helena and Sara's relationship with Oliver was that at some point he said that he wanted to 'save' them both. I really don't think that a relationship can work if one of the parties need 'saving' because that sort of means that they're both not on the same level. 

That said, once they both are 'saved', I don't see why Oliver can't give it another go with either of them. (Except the sister swapping kind of grosses me out)

[statsgirl]

The thing that didn't work for me for both Helena and Sara's relationship with Oliver was that at some point he said that he wanted to 'save' them both. I really don't think that a relationship can work if one of the parties need 'saving' because that sort of means that they're both not on the same level. 

For me, moreso with Helena than with Sara.  Sara was someone Oliver really cared about as a person, both before the Queen's Gambit went down and afterwards on the island.  They had a lot in common, party animals before, broken after, but underneath there was the thread of truly seeing who the other person is and caring about her/him.

 

With Helena, it was Oliver being surprised that he could connect to a person again after what he had gone through (it was after Helena that he considered dating McKenna), and later it was because he wanted to save her.  As if it were a project that he could use as a step to regain his humanity again.  He kept trying to save her and she kept rejecting his light.  I can see broken souls saving each other but that was the only thing they really had in common, being broken souls, but he was trying to get better and she was all about revenge.

 

But the biggest problem for me in terms of Oliver/Helena is that there are better, healthier, alternatives for him.  Even healthy, I don't think Helena is the right person for him.  Personally, I think she's always going to be too unstable to be a good relationship.  Sara had the Amazo and the island to warp her; Helena seems like she was warped from the start.  (Yes, her father killed her fiance but most people don't hate their father enough to go to the FBI on him or start killing everyone around him like that.)

 

 

When she talked to Oliver, I didn't get the sense that she saw her destiny as purely one of an assassin - merely that she'd been so far down the rabbit hole that she had a longer way to get back.  Flash forward to her going to the LoA and it just bugs the hell out of me.  In a matter of, what?, 2 episodes, she's gone from a profound sense of self-awareness and knowing what's right for both her AND Oliver (at that time) to sliding back to a lifestyle that she tried to commit suicide to avoid.

They really messed that ending up. It was as if they were thinking so hard about all the other aspects of the finale that they didn't stop to consider what they were doing to Sara.  And it wouldn't have been that hard to fix, have Sara emphasize that this was the price for bringing in the LoA to help, have her somewhat worried but connecting with Nyssa who we know cares about her.

Edited June 3, 2014 by statsgirl

[FurryFury]

And it wouldn't have been that hard to fix, have Sara emphasize that this was the price for bringing in the LoA to help, have her somewhat worried but connecting with Nyssa who we know cares about her.

 

Connecting with the woman who's tried to kill her mother because she "cares about Sara"? Of course, I have no doubt the writers will revisit Nyssa/Sara at some point later, but thankfully, I won't be there to see and mourn Sara's character assassination. That would be like Oliver not only forgiving Slade for Moira's murder, but being friends with him again.

Edited June 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[statsgirl]

True, wanting to kill your beloved's mother to bring her back to you is insanity, rather like Helena's.  Still Nyssa did it out of love rather than Slade and  Helena who did it out of vengeance.

Edited June 3, 2014 by statsgirl

[HighwayFlower]

I saw Oliver and Sara together as two people who just really understood what each other had gone through and were using each other for comfort. I like that they were together briefly, because now it's done and in my perfect world they are friends and partners. I adore Sara, but I don't want her with Oliver. I would like him to eventually be with Felicity, but not till later. Once he is with her I want it to be for good, not a back and forth thing. Laurel should just go away.

[dtissagirl]

They really messed that ending up. It was as if they were thinking so hard about all the other aspects of the finale that they didn't stop to consider what they were doing to Sara.  And it wouldn't have been that hard to fix, have Sara emphasize that this was the price for bringing in the LoA to help, have her somewhat worried but connecting with Nyssa who we know cares about her.

 

Not much in Sara's last scene made sense. I guess I'm good with Sara trying to be positive in front of her family, and I do believe that she believes it's her choice, but she's sacrificing A LOT to go back to the LoA. Everything else in that scene is a mess. Nyssa's little moment of promising Det. Lance she'll take care of Sara rang untrue because of the trying to kill Dinah to get Sara back thing. And then Laurel's giddiness only makes things worse. It's like they decided to go for a happy tone to fool the audience into being OK with Sara leaving, which obviously didn't work.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

Unless they plan on making Ra's al Ghul a good guy, Sara going back to League after deserting them is not going to be fun for her or shouldn't be fun. No matter how much sway Nyssa has. Ra's al Ghul should always be a badass. I'm expecting him to keep Sara at Nanda Parbat unable to contact her family for a good 6 or 7 months, then send her to kill someone in Starling that he knows the Arrow is going after to put in prison to test her loyalty. He's not in love with her so Nyssa's word shouldn't just be enough.

[KirkB]

And it wouldn't have been that hard to fix, have Sara emphasize that this was the price for bringing in the LoA to help, have her somewhat worried but connecting with Nyssa who we know cares about her.

Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention but I thought Sara made it pretty clear her returning to the League WAS the price for their help, and that she wasn't so much happy leaving as she was putting on a brave face for Quentin and Laurel. If there was anything less than miserable about the scene it was because of Nyssa.

 

Connecting with the woman who's tried to kill her mother because she "cares about Sara"? Of course, I have no doubt the writers will revisit Nyssa/Sara at some point later, but thankfully, I won't be there to see and mourn Sara's character assassination. That would be like Oliver not only forgiving Slade for Moira's murder, but being friends with him again.

 

  Not exactly. Oliver, as far as we know, was never in love with Slade. From the sound of it Sara and Nyssa had a pretty serious relationship at one point, and while Nyssa kidnapping her mother and threatening to kill her might put a pretty serious rift between it ever happening again I think it's fairly evident Sara still has some feelings for Nyssa. I will accept the inclination of character assassination though, since it does appear the EP's were going out of their way to get rid of Sara so they could bring Laurel to the forefront.

Edited June 3, 2014 by KirkB

[FurryFury]

Not exactly. Oliver, as far as we know, was never in love with Slade.

 

Yes, but he felt Slade was his friend, and that's why I'm talking about a restoration of friendship, while Sara/Nyssa was a romance, so that's what, I assume, is going to happen between them - a restoration of romance (eventually). It would be nice if it never happened, though. I can believe Sara may still have residual feelings for her, sure, but becoming close againt with a person who both had played a big part in making Sara an assassin (someone she hated being) and threatened her family would feel untrue to the flawed, but ultimately good-hearted and even heroic person Sara has been shown as.

[KirkB]

I can believe Sara may still have residual feelings for her, sure, but becoming close againt with a person who both had played a big part in making Sara an assassin (someone she hated being) and threatened her family would feel untrue to the flawed, but ultimately good-hearted and even heroic person Sara has been shown as.

 

   You're right. I can find no fault in that. Sara went back to the League because she HAD to. Because she's there Nyssa might be expecting Sara to come back to her but given Sara's character development (and the things Nyssa did) it would be hard to accept her going back to her.

[strikera0]

Not much in Sara's last scene made sense. I guess I'm good with Sara trying to be positive in front of her family, and I do believe that she believes it's her choice, but she's sacrificing A LOT to go back to the LoA. Everything else in that scene is a mess. Nyssa's little moment of promising Det. Lance she's take care of Sara rang untrue because of the trying to kill Dinah to get Sara back thing. And then Laurel's giddiness only makes things worse. It's like they decided to go for a happy tone to fool the audience into being OK with Sara leaving, which obviously didn't work.

 

Agreed, and it wasn't just that, either. The way I remember it, after Sara made it clear that she wasn't willing to go back by taking the poison and lay on the floor dying, Oliver told Nyssa that he can still save Sara's life and Nyssa didn't care. Besides that, she probably also would have slaughtered Quentin (on top of Dinah) if Oliver hadn't intervened at the last second.

 

Katrina Law is a beautiful woman and she kicks all kinds of ass, but the character of Nyssa really isn't much more than a cold-blooded murderer/psychopath at this point. Hopefully, the writers will give the character some positive development in future seasons.

Edited June 5, 2014 by strikera0

[icandigit]

I wonder how they will approach Roy/Thea/Sin next season. If Thea's with Malcolm and Roy with team arrow I just wonder where Sin fits into all this. I really need more Sin, but I'm afraid they will only bring her back when Sara comes around. I just really love the episodes with the trio's little capers. They're so fun and adorable.

[KirkB]

Sin started hanging out with Roy, and got close to Thea, without Sara so it's possible they could keep her around. I wouldn't mind. Shows like this are best when there is a wider cast of characters beyond just the main stars.

[strikera0]

I wonder how they will approach Roy/Thea/Sin next season. If Thea's with Malcolm and Roy with team arrow I just wonder where Sin fits into all this. I really need more Sin, but I'm afraid they will only bring her back when Sara comes around. I just really love the episodes with the trio's little capers. They're so fun and adorable.

 

Not that I want it, but the writers could give Sin to Laurel. All that's needed would be a piece of dialogue where Laurel says that Sara told her to look after Sin while she's gone...

[Sakura12]

^ I would hate that so much. That would render the Sara character even more useless. What was the point of showing us a compelling origin story of the Black Canary, throw her in the trash and just hand everything to Laurel without any story? 

[writersblock51]

I think Sin will be in Roy's orbit for the time being - she knows he was injected, she'll find out that he's been 'cured' as well as Thea has left.  I'd hate for Laurel to be involved with Sin.

Laurel really needs to develop her own identity - a clear cut one - rather than have Sara's everything handed to her.  It's worse than hand me downs.

[statsgirl]

 

It's worse than hand me downs.

It's creative bankruptcy.

[KirkB]

If Laurel is meant to be the Black Canary they should have been building to it all this time, developing the character, rather than bringing in a Black Canary that is much cooler and more fun to watch than Laurel could ever be then handing over her hard work.

[icandigit]

I know there's the whole idea out there of Oliver needing to get his self together and not wanting Felicity waiting in the wings. I think for Oliver to get himself together in order to not lose the girl would take a long time. I guess I'm feeling a little defensive of Oliver cause dude is effed up and has done things (some we don't even know about yet) the moral weight of can't be instantly fixed. I wasn't really waiting for him to get his head outta of his arse for Felicity, I kinda respected the fact that he wouldn't go there.I'm curious as to what would happen to really get him to think that it was ok to pursue her.

 

I don't want Felicity waiting in the wings. But, I really never thought she was because I thought the idea of them really  being together for real  for her was unthinkable too, until the beach scene. Oliver loved Laurel end of story. I guess I just don't like the idea that Felicity is being strung along by Oliver, and not that he has a mountain of issues to overcome.

 

And then's there's the question of how whole should you be to be in a relationship with someone? I guess I just think its more complicated than Oliver needing to get his outta his arse. Not saying he doesn't.

Edited June 4, 2014 by icandigit

[calliope1975]

I never saw Felicity pining for Oliver. She had a bit of crush and dude's hot so, yeah, she liked looking at him, but I didn't see her as waiting for him to notice her. Or even thinking that they would ever get together. I think that's why his "I love you" took her by surprise. I do think that after the beach scene she might rethink their relationship, especially because instead of shutting her down, Oliver just stared at her like she was his sun and stars. 

 

And I really hope we don't see her pining for him because girl is way better than that.

[Password]

I don't want Felicity waiting in the wings. But, I really never thought she was because I thought the idea of them really  being together for real  for her was unthinkable too, until the beach scene.

 

I thought that was the point of showing Felicity had an interest in Barry, that she wasn't waiting around for Oliver. The island scene and the ILY probably made her do a double take if anything because it was unthinkable to her and us, the audience. Whilst I don't trust the writers concerning anything romantic (really they thought the sister swap would be ok?) I would think they won't let her pine after him. I'm particularly encouraged by EBR saying Oliver isn't the only guy in the world. I tend to trust the actor's assessment of their character and Felicity saying Barry moved on in his coma tells me she wasn't waiting around for Oliver.

 

Oliver in any sort of relationship right now doesn't sound like a good idea, but I do think it's interesting that every relationship he has been in post island, the woman broke it off with him. Even Isabel was like "no we don't need to talk about the one night stand." He does seem far more committed and unafraid of being "tied down" as it were. The concept of Oliver thinking of Felicity as more than a friend but realising he's either not good enough or it wouldn't work because they're a team is fine as an idea. But the execution of it in the show was poor. No one can tell me that was his motivation for any of what happened in the second half of the season.

[doesntworkonwood]

In terms of Felicty's relationship with Oliver, I really don't see her pining over him. She's never verbalised her feelings for him, other people have verbalised them (Moira, Barry). And I get that she hasn't been shown to have many relationships outside of Team Arrow, and I'd love to see more don't get me wrong, but I don't think that means that she's pining over him. She was really open to a relationship with Barry, and that was after her feelings for Oliver became apparent. I'm sure that she's still open to them and not just waiting on Oliver (who she didn't even think liked her like that).

[icandigit]

 

The concept of Oliver thinking of Felicity as more than a friend but realising he's either not good enough or it wouldn't work because they're a team is fine as an idea. But the execution of it in the show was poor. No one can tell me that was his motivation for any of what happened in the second half of the season.

I didn't see any connection with what he did in the second half of the season having anything to do with Felicity. I'm not sure what his motivation is beyond the because of the life that I lead line. But, I feel like there has been this automatic assumption in the fandom that Oliver and Felicity aren't together because he won't get his head out of his arse and make a move. And I think there is more to it than that. I may be proven wrong,

Edited June 4, 2014 by icandigit

[Password]

Neither did I. If that were the writers' intention I didn't see a clear connect. Perhaps that's why Stephen Amell said whether or not he meant the ILY will be cleared up early in the season.

[HighwayFlower]

The have Sara as a perfect Black Canary, and Felicity as the girl the majority of fans see as the main love interest. There really is no purpose for Laurel and the writers need to just let her character go.

Sara and Felicity are friends with no rivalry over Oliver dispite the Sara/Oliver history. It's refreshing to see, while Laurel is just the typical jealous rival to both. I just don't get the writers attachment to her.

[catrox14]

 

Neither did I. If that were the writers' intention I didn't see a clear connect. Perhaps that's why Stephen Amell said whether or not he meant the ILY will be cleared up early in the season.

 

I swear to Gods, if this turns out to be something like Felicity is Oliver's half-sister, I will quit the show.

[slayer2]

Caity and EBR are always tweeting each other, hanging out and posting pics of each other and their dogs. At the Chile Comic Con, Caity said EBR is coming to LA to hang out with her. I don't really see her doing any of that with KC. They weren't even following each other on Twitter until someone pointed that out to them. Not that Twitter is a prerequisite for friendships, but it does show them talking to each other. So I don't know how close Caity and Katie really are. Sounds like damage control to me. People are upset about Sara being shoved out the way for Laurel so the cast has to promote Cassidy. Which is what everyone is always doing for her. They are telling us that Cassidy has an Emmy worthy scene or we're really going to love Laurel in the next episode or something, but I didn't see any of that on screen. Then outside of Arrow, KC barely talked about Arrow until the last few episodes. And I know her character wasn't doing much, but her whole "drug arc" was supposed to be something big for her acting wise. But she said nothing about it. Roy barely did anything either and kind of got shoved out the way, but Colton would happily talk about the show.

For me liking the actor can help translate over to the character, even if their character is not the most interesting or exciting one. Roy is kind of annoying and Colton is not the greatest actor, but he seems so enthusiastic about the show and he seems like he has a great sense of humor. So in turn I started liking a Roy a little more.

I guess people believe what they want to believe but CL lying for publicity or damage control sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

I agree with those who say that damaged people can be fine together and certainly on a TV show it's par for the course. After a certain amount of seasons on any TV show most anyone becomes damaged on account of all the things they throw at the character. With that in mind I'm still holding out for Huntress/Oliver, that my OTP thus far.

Edited June 4, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

 

I guess people believe what they want to believe but CL lying for publicity or damage control sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

 

I think it's true that CL said she was closest to KC and EBR on set, which doesn't necessarily mean that they are pals away from the set either. Although in the case of EBR and CL they appear to be as well. For PR purposes, it's important that the show has their actors present a united front. It would be great if KC could do more of this re her relationships with other cast members. 

[quarks]

I don't want to sound cynical. But with the caveat that I have absolutely no information about what Caity Lotz or the rest of the actors really thinks about Arrow, the notion that someone in Hollywood would lie for publicity or damage control is not only not at all far fetched, but happens all the time. That is kinda the nature of the business.

 

Which is not to say that Lotz or anyone else is lying - it's very possible that she and Cassidy are best friends. I don't think Twitter is a guideline either way, especially given that many actors hire people to tweet/Facebook for them. What I can say is that talking badly about your fellow actors, production staff, writers, or anyone while the show is still on is a major, major Hollywood no-no and a convention panel no-no unless you are much higher up than anyone on Arrow with the very arguable exception of Berlanti, if you want to continue working in Hollywood.  As a result, every single genre show, while it's on, is always "Wow! This is the best place to work! The cast is just like a family!"  And you know, I'm sure sometimes this is actually true. But I would hesitate to describe it as always true.

 

To swing this back to relationships, I do think the show has left the possibility of Helena/Oliver open, deliberately so - whenever the showrunners list the women in Oliver's life, she's usually listed, though that's also probably because Helena episodes have had decent ratings - Birds of Prey was one of the better rated episodes in the second half of the season - suggesting that viewers like her. 

[dtissagirl]

I didn't see any connection with what he did in the second half of the season having anything to do with Felicity. I'm not sure what his motivation is beyond the because of the life that I lead line. But, I feel like there has been this automatic assumption in the fandom that Oliver and Felicity aren't together because he won't get his head out of his arse and make a move. And I think there is more to it than that. I may be proven wrong,

 

I've been trying to look at S2 as rationally as I can to try to understand [fanwank] all the filler episodes from mid-season, and while I don't think the writers get how much the show came to a halt between Time of Death and Deathstroke, I believe at least part of it was that they had to slow the heck out of Felicity/Oliver. It was happening too fast, and audience/media were reacting to their relationship A LOT more than they probably anticipated. Or wanted, possibly. It's a super-hero action show with kickass stunts and shocking twists and turns, but what does the internet mostly talk about? Will Oliver and Felicity ever kiss. Team Arrow goes to Russia in a Diggle-centric episode, what does the internet do? GIFs of Oliver and Felicity being all angst-y.

 

I think that around 208-209 [i.e. around the time Barry showed up] yeah, the ONLY thing stopping F/O from jumping each other was "because of the life that I lead". Remember how much they hyped Grant's chemistry with EBR? Barry wasn't brought in solely as a stopgap to F/O, obviously, but making him interested in Felicity definitely was.

 

And if they decided by episode 213 that the finale resolution would come from the ILY fake-out, then that explains Sara/Oliver -- if not from the narrative standpoint, but as a barrier to F/O that also happened to affect Laurel during her addiction storyline. And as an unfortunate result, they ended up making Oliver look kind of like a jerk, and turning the show into a bad soap-opera for those 5 or 6 episodes, until the action picked up again by 218.

Edited June 4, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

Damage control is par for the course with acting. I'm not saying that Caity was lying about being friends with Cassidy, it just doesn't seem like they are that close. She seems much closer to EBR. Plus Caity seems like a friendly outgoing person so she probably tries to make friends with the people she works with. She still hangs out with her the girls from her German girl group. 

 

Whether they plan on hooking up Oliver/Felicity or not, there will always be obstacles. I just hope they start giving Felicity some. I'm tired of her seeing orbit around Oliver and his life. I want her to have her own. 

[Password]

I've been trying to look at S2 as rationally as I can to try to understand [fanwank] all the filler episodes from mid-season, and while I don't think the writers get how much the show came to a halt between Time of Death and Deathstroke, I believe at least part of it was that they had to slow the heck out of Felicity/Oliver. It was happening too fast, and audience/media were reacting to their relationship A LOT more than they probably anticipated. Or wanted, possibly. It's a super-hero action show with kickass stunts and shocking twists and turns, but what does the internet mostly talk about? Will Oliver and Felicity ever kiss. Team Arrow goes to Russia in a Diggle-centric episode, what does the internet do? GIFs of Oliver and Felicity being all angst-y.

 

And also the finale, most reviewers talked about the massive ILY moment, but I guess that's what the EPs wanted. Oh and also how Laurel has become a usurper but never mind that. I don't know how they saw that scene with Sara as anything but usurpery (Laurel Lance gets her own word). I still don't think they thought the whole Sara and Oliver thing through properly. It made both the characters douchey and Sara is just forever on my no fly zone list. I wish they came up with a different barrier (strangely I didn't see Barry as one). Everything about Oliver post ep 13 made me ill so I guess it was par for the course.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I agree that Oliver and Sara hooking up made both of them look pretty douchey -- that whole Lance family dinner thing? Trying to scrub it from my mind forever.

 

And maybe I'm a cynic, but I also can't help but wonder whether the studio mandates it that Oliver Queen must have x romantic trysts per season [this is The CW after all], and since the showrunners themselves admit that they're going for the "slow burn" with F/O, Sara's character had to be sacrificed for the sake of a network note or two.

[Password]

Who knows what goes on behind doors. But I do wonder if the EPs saw Felicity as a problem or an opportunity. I saw her as an opportunity at first but now I don't see how anyone could fit into that slot of endgame better. Depending on what they do with what Oliver meant by the ILY, we'll see whether or not my stance changes.

[calliope1975]

Depending on what they do with what Oliver meant by the ILY, we'll see whether or not my stance changes.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see what SA means by we'll find out if Oliver meant it or not. If he didn't, he should have been more clear with Felicity on the beach. Or said anything, really, other than staring dreamily. If he did, I think most of us are in the consensus that Oliver is miles away from being ready for a relationship. And the goodwill and connection that EBR/Felicity has made with the audience will make it very difficult to dick around with the character. I don't want her used as a stumbling block in the Lance Sister Swapping Bowl-a-Rama. Actually, those types of shenanigans would make me quit this show. 

 

I suppose it could be Oliver acknowledging to himself or Digg that he meant it but keeping that info to himself until whatever catalyst (be it in S3 or beyond) forces him to make a move. 

[Password]

Diggle wasn't particularly stealth with his letting them talk at the beach. I guess Felicity must have told him she wanted a moment or even what Oliver said to her. Diggle is the guy who doesn't talk a lot but when he does, everyone listens. If he says something, like he did when Oliver had a hissy over Barry Allen, I'd be so glad.

[Carrie Ann]

It'll be interesting to see what SA means by we'll find out if Oliver meant it or not. If he didn't, he should have been more clear with Felicity on the beach. Or said anything, really, other than staring dreamily. If he did, I think most of us are in the consensus that Oliver is miles away from being ready for a relationship. 

 

Based on the way SA always says, "Was it?" when people ask it being a ruse, I think it's pretty obvious that Oliver did mean it, in some form. Now the question is: how will they show that? I suspect it will be some sort of obvious pining, but I'd love it if Oliver talked to Diggle about it instead.

 

Especially because Dig broached the subject with each of them this season, but in a way that still leaves it sort of below the surface. First with Oliver, when he said, "I think you didn't have a problem with Felicity's performance until she met Barry Allen," and Oliver just stewed on it until the end of the episode when he indicated to Dig that he wanted to be alone with her. Then with Felicity when she was insecure about Sara being on the team, Dig said, "I know we haven't talked about this, but it can't be easy seeing them together." She quickly said it wasn't about that, but neither of them denied what Dig was implying.

 

So they sort of both have an understanding with him about it, but it's still kinda subtext. It'd be nice to have it become text. And I think Dig would be a good arbiter for how to handle it, for Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

I suppose it could be Oliver acknowledging to himself or Digg that he meant it but keeping that info to himself until whatever catalyst (be it in S3 or beyond) forces him to make a move.

 

Or he hints about it and Felicity is the one that shoots him down basically saying that their life is complicated enough and something about being committed to what they are doing and not in a place to risk it.  It would be a way of choosing friendship over love as its been hinted at. 

 

Nyssa's little moment of promising Det. Lance she's take care of Sara rang untrue because of the trying to kill Dinah to get Sara back thing

 

I have a different take on it.  I did think that Nyssa was very sincere in her promise to look after Sara.  I just think that Nyssa's way of showing love is more than a little messed up. 

 

Obviously she didn't take rejection very well, hence her luring Sara back by poisoning Laurel (but not killing her) and then kidnapping her mother (but admitting she didn't want to kill her)  I think in Nyssa's mind she thought she just needed to make Sara seriously examine the idea of coming back and she would want to anyway or end up coming to accept it was the right thing to do.  When Sara shows up poisoned Nyssa looks truly horrified and hurt.  

 

I think Nyssa as a trained assassin was swamped with this pain that Sara would rather die than come back to her and she in that instant transferred her anger/pain into blaming her parents for Sara's actions hence her first instinct trying to kill them too.  Oliver stopped her and it made perfect sense to me that she would fall back on training and express her pain by fighting a clear cut adversary.

 

There is a point where Oliver says he can still save Sara and Nyssa doesn't say let her die but tells Oliver he should be more concerned about his own health.  I got the feeling that the Pit Viper Venom in high enough dosages was not supposed to be curable and that even though Quentin called for an ambulance, in Nyssa's mind, Sara was already dead so all she could do was react. 

 

The break through to Nyssa came when Sara rushed over and stopped Oliver from killing her.  I think all it took was Sara showing she still cared about Nyssa and that her choice wasn't to get away from Nyssa but really was about the killing - that's the moment that all the fight went out of Nyssa. That's when Oliver had the chance to pull out his miracle herbs (which I again don't think Nyssa believed would have worked) and Sara came back alive. 

 

It was then that Nyssa choose to release Sara from the League.  Why?  Because Sara was alive and I think Nyssa in her own twisted way really did love Sara and would rather have Sara alive and not with her than risk Sara's life again.  I think it just took Sara taking the poison to make Nyssa realize Sara was serious about giving up both the assassin's life and her relationship with Nyssa.  Had Nyssa not truly loved Sara, I don't think it would have mattered how deeply Sara felt about not killing anymore.  Somehow I just don't think personal conviction made much of an impact on the LoA employment policies. 

 

Which is why I did think Nyssa's promise to look after Sara rang true.  Does that promise extend to looking after Sara's soul?  It's hard to know.  I think Nyssa sees killing at least in some circumstances as the more moral choice so yes Sara will be back to killing but who knows how much Nyssa has shielded Sara from her father and who knows how much she can still shield her from but I truly believe that even if Nyssa and Sara don't rekindle a romance, there is a level of trust and real love between them.  Nyssa will do her best to keep Sara alive. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by BkWurm1

[writersblock51]

When it comes to Oliver and Felicity this season, I think Diggle acts as much of the viewing audience.

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if they'll keep showing Dig/Lyla as a healthy adult relationship that shows you can live a dangerous vigilante/secret agent life and still be in love and have a family, or if they'll go the angst route with them just to prove Oliver's "because of the life that I lead" speech right. REALLY hoping for the former.

[quarks]

Well, interestingly enough, Oliver's "Because of the life that you lead" speech to Roy led to complete disaster. So, can we hope that Oliver has learned something from this?  And not just that he is the last person on the planet who should be giving Roy dating advice?

[wonderwall]

I actually want Oliver to have an honest conversation with Digg and ask him how he does it. How he can stand having a child and a relationship with Lyla when they can be put into danger at any moment just because Digg is associated with the Arrow... And I want Digg to make Oliver see sense because that's what he does. Digg helps Oliver think rationally.

[BkWurm1]

Connecting with the woman who's tried to kill her mother because she "cares about Sara"? Of course, I have no doubt the writers will revisit Nyssa/Sara at some point later, but thankfully, I won't be there to see and mourn Sara's character assassination. That would be like Oliver not only forgiving Slade for Moira's murder, but being friends with him again.

 

Is it the same thing though?  I don't mean friendship vs romantic love but that Slade went mad and became a different person while Nyssa was always the same person who presumably has always lived her life surrounded by black and white choices made from the greyest places ever. 

 

What I mean is that for Nyssa she could be intent on killing someone but it's not personal so would she see poisoning Laurel (but not killing her) and kidnapping Sara's mother and threatening to kill her (but not doing it) as a deal breaker in her relationship with Sara?  It seems clear to me that Nyssa thought Sara would come back to her and the past would be in the past and more so, should not inform the future. 

 

Sara said she loved Nyssa and from that I infer that she knew who Nyssa was and how Nyssa thought.  Based on that, I don't see it completely unlikely that Sara could go back to Nyssa, accepting and trusting Nyssa by the standards that Nyssa lived by.  It wouldn't be IMO a complete trust but it might resemble pretty closely what they'd had before since Nyssa would still have been the same person who was perfectly capable of thinking the way to her girlfriend's heart was poisoning her sister and kidnapping her mother. 

 

I'm not saying that I think Sara should get back together with Nyssa, just that I can't judge her by normal standards and I don't think Sara would either which leaves IMO a believable opening for them in the future.  Preferably after Nyssa figures out the whole poisoning and kidnapping thing isn't a good idea. 

[statsgirl]

David Ramsey himself has said in an interview that Oliver isn't ready to be in a relationship with Felicity at this time, and after the finale Stephen Amell said that the ILU came from an honest place, whatever that means. But if we find out that Oliver didn't mean it, the EPs and WB (who retweeted MG's tweet with a #Olicity) are in for a world of hurt IMO.

 

I think we'll find out if it was real or not through Diggle talking to Oliver since Sara's gone now and there is no one else left that Oliver is close to, possibly coming out of a conversation about Diggle's baby.  Anything other than the words wouldn't be definitive.  

while I don't think the writers get how much the show came to a halt between Time of Death and Deathstroke, I believe at least part of it was that they had to slow the heck out of Felicity/Oliver.

I think I'll have a better understanding when I see the episodes closer together but there was an awful lot of set-up material to get through to set up the big finale episodes and I don't think they realized, maybe don't even realize now, how the stop-start way they did it slowed the show down. Having Roy get mirakuru'd and then dropping him to do the Lance Family Drama made it seem like Roy's story wasn't important when it was, and we got too little of seeing Oliver and Sara in a relationship because all they could talk about was Laurel and Slade.  Maybe that's why Felicity dropped off of Oliver's radar, because having set up the UST with the Barry episodes, they thought it was just ready and waiting to be picked up later, not realizing that you occasionally have to stir the pot while the ingredients cook.

 

This show really doesn't plot well.

I do think the show has left the possibility of Helena/Oliver open, deliberately so - whenever the showrunners list the women in Oliver's life, she's usually listed, though that's also probably because Helena episodes have had decent ratings

That's interesting. greenarrowtv.com is doing their annual survey for s2 and I was flipping through last year's winners. Helena was the most disliked character (Laurel came second) and The Huntress Returns worst episode.  (Surprisingly Malcolm Merlyn was most liked character followed by Felicity and then Oliver, and Oliver/Felicity best relationship.)

 

I wonder if they include Helena to keep Oliver's options open because really, the only one completely closed at this point is Shado.

 

Well, interestingly enough, Oliver's "Because of the life that you lead" speech to Roy led to complete disaster.

Well, maybe not complete disaster.  Roy did try to choke Thea a few episodes later.

I did think that Nyssa was very sincere in her promise to look after Sara.  I just think that Nyssa's way of showing love is more than a little messed up.

Nyssa is an al Ghul after all so her values would tend to be rather screwed up. But I did believe that Nyssa truly loved Sara, even if her way of showing to wasn't what one would hope for.

Edited June 5, 2014 by statsgirl

[abhi]

I think the Diggle/Lyla relationship cannot be a example setter for Oliver/Felicity relationship. If anyone remembers, Amell had said in an interview that Oliver can be with Sara because she can take care of herself which is not the case with Felicity. Both Diggle and Lyla are soldiers and equal to each other and they know that the other one can take care of themselves. As a matter of fact the Diggle/Lyla relationship is very similar to Oliver/Sara relationship or god forbid the Oliver/Laurel relationship if Laurel becomes the Black canary.

[BkWurm1]

The upcoming baby makes DIgs and Lyla's prowess as a fighters moot.  The child will be vulnerable for years and years.  Do they not have a relationship with it because it would put the baby at risk?  Maybe,  but I think it equalizes the question between Oliver and Diggle.