Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[jay741982]

Oliver is so measured and careful with Felicity. You can tell this is something different and new and special to him and he's trying really hard not to fuck it up while simultaneously fucking it alllllllll the way up.

Very well said though When olicity is finally sailing I hope they start with a slow make out which turns into Oliver throwing her up aganst a wall

[Carrie Ann]

(Bringing this over from the Felicity thread because I'm mostly talking about her relationships.)

 

I am one of the people who saw two moments in 311 between Ray and Felicity that I felt were flirtatious, though I don't think that word is entirely accurate. I just don't think there is a word...maybe encouragingly intimate? Though I think that sounds worse, it's actually closer to what I mean.

 

And if Felicity was showing that she is open and interested in his romantic attentions, I'm not saying there's anything morally wrong with that. But a week after Oliver's death, it does undercut that connection, for me personally. Like, I can in no way see the same thing happening on Oliver's side, at this point. And I think it's funny how SA used that language this summer to shoot down the idea of Oliver getting with Sara or Laurel again--that after what he says in The Calm, getting with other women would undersell/undercut that emotion. But the writers ignored that concern when it came to Felicity--and I'm NOT talking about her wanting to date someone else when Oliver shut her down. That's not the problem for me. The problem for me lies in where and how the development of that relationship has intersected with her relationship with Oliver. I'm talking about scenes like the one where they had Felicity beam up at Ray as he announced the erasure of the Queen family name from that company (particularly when we have no concrete reason to believe that Oliver and Felicity had a conversation about this in advance), for one example.

 

Now, I think there is time to right the ship in this regard, once we start hearing from Felicity herself. Fingers and toes crossed SO HARD for 312, guys. And for the sake of the relationship feeling balanced when it ultimately happens, I'd like there to be a little bit of give on both of their sides. I don't want it to be Oliver 100% in the wrong and the only one who needs to change. The fact is that neither of them have tried for this since the first episode. They both shut it down. Yes, Oliver was the one who initiated that shutdown and I don't put the onus on Felicity to fix it by any means. He pushed her away, but she ran, too. She could have fought him on it at any point, and she chose not to. A very believable choice, and not one I judge, but like SA said w/r/t Oliver: "If we're not taking risks with our heart, then what are we even doing here?" I'd like that to be acknowledged in the end, I guess, just so that it doesn't feel like Oliver's the sad puppy at the door begging to be let in. Again--not my favorite ship dynamic, personally.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

Like, I can in no way see the same thing happening on Oliver's side, at this point. And I think it's funny how SA used that language this summer to shoot down the idea of Oliver getting with Sara or Laurel again--that after what he says in The Calm, getting with other women would undersell/undercut that emotion. 

 

Well, for Oliver, getting involved with someone else really would undersell what they're doing, regardless of declarations of love and what have you, because the whole reason Oliver isn't with Felicity is because he says he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow at the same time. If he was saying that to her and then opening himself up to someone else, we know that he's either a) a shitbag b) a liar or c) a nasty combination of the two who just wanted to string Felicity along. Not getting into the Felicity side of things because I really don't know how I feel about it. As I wrote over in her thread, I don't think she's done anything wrong, but that scene with Ray made me uncomfortable, even though I didn't think she was flirting. I can't put a fine point on why it made me feel...off. But I too hope we get her actual feelings in 3x12, not an outburst that's a lie to push Oliver away/deny how she feels/some other kind of drama. I just want her to own it so we know. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

Well, for Oliver, getting involved with someone else really would undersell what they're doing, regardless of declarations of love and what have you, because the whole reason Oliver isn't with Felicity is because he says he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow at the same time. If he was saying that to her and then opening himself up to someone else, we know that he's either a) a shitbag b) a liar or c) a nasty combination of the two who just wanted to string Felicity along.

 

Yeah, I should have been more clear: I can see the story/motivation reasons why it would undersell and be illogical for Oliver to get with another woman. And those story reasons aren't there for Felicity at all, which is why I was rooting for her to date someone else after The Calm. I just meant that on an emotional resonance level, the same thing is happening for me on Felicity's side, so far. They're undercutting what they're trying to sell as a great love by not allowing her character to express those emotions, and by having her act in ways that feel counter to it, sometimes. Or maybe they're not trying to sell it that way. Maybe they really do want people to be guessing as to her feelings at this point, until she finally expresses them in a big scene and all is revealed. I'm counting on the latter part happening, at least.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Genki]

Well, for Oliver, getting involved with someone else really would undersell what they're doing, regardless of declarations of love and what have you, because the whole reason Oliver isn't with Felicity is because he says he can't be Oliver Queen and the Arrow at the same time. If he was saying that to her and then opening himself up to someone else, we know that he's either a) a shitbag b) a liar or c) a nasty combination of the two who just wanted to string Felicity along. Not getting into the Felicity side of things because I really don't know how I feel about it. As I wrote over in her thread, I don't think she's done anything wrong, but that scene with Ray made me uncomfortable, even though I didn't think she was flirting. I can't put a fine point on why it made me feel...off. But I too hope we get her actual feelings in 3x12, not an outburst that's a lie to push Oliver away/deny how she feels/some other kind of drama. I just want her to own it so we know. 

 

I think what make me uncomfortable with the scene was the fact that Felicity didn't shut Ray down and it is an ongoing trend. Whether or not Felicity had romantic feelings for Oliver her friend just died after the loss of another friend and he knows this. 

 

Ray continues to be inappropriate with Felicity and she keeps letting him. As a viewer I'm puzzled because this does not gel with the Felicity from 1.15, who stood up to Oliver's intimidation tactic and quit. So I keep waiting for Felicity to call him out but she doesn't.

 

Things that are mostly right but slightly wrong bug me more than things that are flagrantly wrong. This little bit of discord keeps irritating me and that's how I feel abut Felicity this season, she is mostly right, but then there are things she is doing that doesn't seem right. Also it is frustrating that it is only either with Laurel or Ray.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from, and I agree. 

 

I understand why Felicity needed to move on, both in the story and for the narrative. It would've been OOC for her to wait around for him to change his mind. And Oliver got all comfortable in her being around all the time - he could still be "with" her without actually being with her. Someone needed to change the status quo to give him the kick in the ass he needs to learn that he can only have good things in his life if he takes the chance to grab them, even if it's scary. I was excited for her to get another love interest, but it's not been handled well. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

At. All.

I think I'm still in shock they want to even try Raylicity after ep 10. I was convinced they put the kibosh on that.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Limbo

[BkWurm1]

Very well said though When olicity is finally sailing I hope they start with a slow make out which turns into Oliver throwing her up aganst a wall

Can I vote for Felicity throwing him up against the wall?  ;D  Or at the very least, climb him like he was a wall.  Hee!

Edited February 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Can I vote for Felicity throwing him up against the wall?  ;D  Or at the very least, climb him like he was a wall.  Hee!

You climb him,Felicity! Climb him like he climbs the Salmon Ladder (S and L are in caps because respect needs to be shown dammit!) 

[jay741982]

Can I vote for Felicity throwing him up against the wall?  ;D  Or at the very least, climb him like he was a wall.  Hee!

Hey I'm down with that too! It would surprise Oliver but he would LOVE It. I want both of them to be eithef ripping their clothes off each other and do it all slow sensual and Hot lol

You climb him,Felicity! Climb him like he climbs the Salmon Ladder (S and L are in caps because respect needs to be shown dammit!)

Sally does need respect!!

[kismet]

I'll take a wall anyday, but plz no climbing just yet. Im getting negative flashbacks to the whole LL hook-up in S1 when she just jumped on him... Actually as I was rewatching parts of S1, it made me think that they really are trying to rewrite F&O as the star-crossed lovers that they screwed up on S1 w/ O&L. I want F&O to have their own origin story and not just repeat the beats that failed in S1. For example, in S1 when O realized that if he stopped the earthquake machine he might be able to end this whole hood thing and went after/slept with L, I dont want that here again in s3 w/ F. His choice to be a hero or not should not revolve around being with his girl or not. It should not be a mutually exclusive decision. I know they set-up parallels with the 2 hallway finale scenes - but I want the parallels to stop, please. They are 2 different & distinct love stories, and so they should be shown/written as. If O&F are meant to be together, then I think they should be able to overcome anything. I don't think the ARROW should come between them. What I always loved about superhero OTPs, is that they loved the person for the whole person, the man & the superhero. OQ needs to learn that he can have Felicity's love as both Arrow & OQ. Likewise, Felicity needs to admit (& yes finally reveal/tell) that she loves all of him, not just OQ or Arrow. They both need to embrace the duality for it to really work out in the long run as endgame.

 

Back to the make-out scene. For inspiration I recommend the newer version of Nikita (formally on the CW). In it Michael finally comes to realization of the lies he had been told and comes to Nikita to apologize. That scene between was so amazingly hot, in character for both, a game-changer and just all around YES, FINALLY, CANT WAIT for more scene. Shane West & Maggie Q nailed it out of the park with that scene, highly recommend a youTube viewing of that scene. That is what I want for Oliver & Felicity. Also great thing about that scene & relationship is that they always saw each other as equal partners, even though it developed from a boss/mentee relationship.

Edited February 2, 2015 by kismet

[jay741982]

I'll take a wall anyday, but plz no climbing just yet. Im getting negative flashbacks to the whole LL hook-up in S1 when she just jumped on him... Actually as I was rewatching parts of S1, it made me think that they really are trying to rewrite F&O as the star-crossed lovers that they screwed up on S1 w/ O&L. I want F&O to have their own origin story and not just repeat the beats that failed in S1. For example, in S1 when O realized that if he stopped the earthquake machine he might be able to end this whole hood thing and went after/slept with L, I dont want that here again in s3 w/ F. His choice to be a hero or not should not revolve around being with his girl or not. It should not be a mutually exclusive decision. I know they set-up parallels with the 2 hallway finale scenes - but I want the parallels to stop, please. They are 2 different & distinct love stories, and so they should be shown/written as. If O&F are meant to be together, then I think they should be able to overcome anything. I don't think the ARROW should come between them. What I always loved about superhero OTPs, is that they loved the person for the whole person, the man & the superhero. OQ needs to learn that he can have Felicity's love as both Arrow & OQ. Likewise, Felicity needs to admit (& yes finally reveal/tell) that she loves all of him, not just OQ or Arrow. They both need to embrace the duality for it to really work out in the long run as endgame.

 

Back to the make-out scene. For inspiration I recommend the newer version of Nikita (formally on the CW). In it Michael finally comes to realization of the lies he had been told and comes to Nikita to apologize. That scene between was so amazingly hot, in character for both, a game-changer and just all around YES, FINALLY, CANT WAIT for more scene. Shane West & Maggie Q nailed it out of the park with that scene, highly recommend a youTube viewing of that scene. That is what I want for Oliver & Felicity. Also great thing about that scene & relationship is that they always saw each other as equal partners, even though it developed from a boss/mentee relationship.

I definitely agree that Olicity needs to remain a different love story. This couple has the makings of an Epic love story and it needs to be separate from Laureliver. And when they finally get together I want a different scene than Laureliver in Season 1. I'm suggesting a HOT sensual make out with someone being thrown up the wall then it goes from there lol

[Ariah]

Actually, I want Felicity to say that she loves both Oliver and the Arrow, that to her they are not seperate entities, but a unity. (but that's for the sweeps, I guess)

 

I fully agree with Kismet on the Nikita relationship - up till this day it's one of my favourite tv relationships: there was no love triangle (some may argue, but I believe both characters never had another love in mind, just obligation and friendship), there was mutual respect and there was a lot of chemistry. Plus funny banter. And great stunts.

 

I need the Arrow writers to sit down, watch the whole Nikita and take notes. (hey, there's even a baby storyline. Not badly done, in the long run).

[jay741982]

Actually, I want Felicity to say that she loves both Oliver and the Arrow, that to her they are not seperate entities, but a unity. (but that's for the sweeps, I guess)

 

I fully agree with Kismet on the Nikita relationship - up till this day it's one of my favourite tv relationships: there was no love triangle (some may argue, but I believe both characters never had another love in mind, just obligation and friendship), there was mutual respect and there was a lot of chemistry. Plus funny banter. And great stunts.

 

I need the Arrow writers to sit down, watch the whole Nikita and take notes. (hey, there's even a baby storyline. Not badly done, in the long run).

I want her to say she loves both as well. I believe Someone on here even said she should kiss him when he has his Arrow gear on

[kismet]

Actually, I want Felicity to say that she loves both Oliver and the Arrow, that to her they are not seperate entities, but a unity. (but that's for the sweeps, I guess)

 

I fully agree with Kismet on the Nikita relationship - up till this day it's one of my favourite tv relationships: there was no love triangle (some may argue, but I believe both characters never had another love in mind, just obligation and friendship), there was mutual respect and there was a lot of chemistry. Plus funny banter. And great stunts.

 

I need the Arrow writers to sit down, watch the whole Nikita and take notes. (hey, there's even a baby storyline. Not badly done, in the long run).

It'll probably be sweeps... frustrating being a TV viewer at times. The more I think about it, you're right they should take notes on how to do relationships from that show. Maggie Q is similar to ERB in that she had chemistry with all the leading men they put her with, you got why everyone would fall for her. But you also understood that Michael really was the one. They also should take notes on how to write strong female characters without needing to make them props or one-dimensional plot movers. The ladies on that show kicked ass physically, emotionally and psychologically. Not once did I feel the characters were written into cliche tropes or sidelined because of their gender. The healthy female relationships were at the core of the show. As was a healthy male to female relationship dynamic, it was about more then making/finding love interests. Also most of the characters were emotionally damaged in some way, yet somehow found a way to eek out a few moments of happiness.

[Password]

I'm just crying. It's OK.

[tv echo]

Apparently there's this Laurel=Buffy and Oliver=Angel comparison going around (I don't recall MG ever making this comparison, though)...

Jen @jbuffyangel  ·  11h 11 hours ago
Buffy & Laurel - Anonymous said: Were you also happy when Marc basically confirmed that Laurel as Black Canary might be inspired by Buffy and that he was happy Buffy’s fans were glad? :) It’s also fun to watch Laurel and her lack of actual technique because it totally reminds me of Buffy.  http://tmblr.co/ZaI5Ln1cOi_IG

https://twitter.com/jbuffyangel

Anonymous asked:
You do realize Laurel's Arrow's Buffy and Oliver's Arrow's Angel, right?

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/100049727103/you-do-realize-laurels-arrows-buffy-and-olivers

 

If we're going to go with that comparison (no matter how ludicrous), then this old 2013 article compares Felicity to Cordelia (you know, the one Angel ends up loving and has ”kyrumption"):

 

THE BURDEN OF CANON: CAN WE TALK ABOUT ARROW’S OLIVER, LAUREL & FELICITY PROBLEM?
http://weminoredinfilm.com/2013/05/15/the-burden-of-canon-can-we-talk-about-arrows-laurel-oliver-problem/

 

Incidentally, that article is worth reading, even though it's old, just from a historical perspective.  Also, special credit for digging up this photo of Smallville's Black Canary played by Alaina Huffman (Sin, anyone?):

 

Edited February 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

The only time I have ever heard MG reference Buffy is in one of his asks. He said Buffy and Angel were some of has inspirations (I'm paraphrasing). I'm not sure if he was talking about the two shows or the two characters or the romance. He didn't get into details and he didn't compare any characters on Arrow. IMO none of the characters nor their relationships are good comparisons. 

 

And just because I'm a huge fan, I wouldn't say that Angel ends up with Cordy. They have their moments, and certainly a will-they-won't-they storyline, but they never get together. Angel actually has a casual girlfriend at the end of series, but he breaks up with her before the series finale. And Cordy dies mid-season 5.

Edited February 3, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Morrigan2575]

If I understand this correctly, MG said that Buffy and Angel as TV shows were the inspiration for Arrow which, uh Duh they only talk about Buffy, Angel and Whedon all the freaking time.  But someone twisted that to mean Buffy/Angel are the inspirations for Laurel/Oliver so uh, soulmates/OTP?

 

OK so, it's sort of BS since the Obvious inspiration for O/L and Arrow S1 was 100% Batman Begins/The Dark Knight Trilogy...I mean FFS just go read the pilot script and then watch Batman Begins (especially the Bruce/Rachel stuff)...beware falling anvils.

 

ETA: 

The only time I have ever heard MG reference Buffy is in one of his asks. He said Buffy and Angel were some of has inspirations (I'm paraphrasing). I'm not sure if he was talking about the two shows or the two characters or the romance. He didn't get into details and he didn't compare any characters on Arrow. IMO none of the characters nor their relationships are good comparisons.

 

It's the shows, not the characters they've been abundantly clear on that, any reference to Buffy and Angel has been to things that happened in the show or the way the show was handled.  They've talked about having only one Big Bad per season, just like Buffy, they've talked game changing characters like Faith.  

Edited February 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[blixie]

 

Maybe they really do want people to be guessing as to her feelings at this point, until she finally expresses them in a big scene and all is revealed. I'm counting on the latter part happening, at least.

 

I think they do, want people guessing, I think in her own way Felicity is as locked down emotionally as Oliver, and is just as unwilling to risk her heart. Abandonment issues with her dad, and the college boyfriend disaster, have made her reluctant to put herself out there, and even though I think her heart belongs to Oliver, she's never allowed herself to commit to that, to invest in that future, whether it's because she wasn't sure he reciprocated, or a relationship w/in the dynamic of Team Arrow was just impossible (which hello Dyla) or whatever.

 

I think my issue is I think Felicity has *very good reasons* to not want to risk her heart on Oliver, that have zero do to with being the Arrow. Oliver conversely in my opinion has EVERY REASON to risk his heart in general and specifically on Felicity, that's his growth and his lesson: fighting for the city is well and good, but he has to be fighting for his own life and happiness too, precisely because this life we live is so tenuous, and Team Arrow's more than most.

 

I guess I disagree with the idea that Felicity hasn't "fought" for Olicity this season. I think she has communicated pretty clearly what she needs and what she wants, what she gets is Oliver twinkling his little eyes at her, claiming he loves her and WALKING AWAY. Repeatedly, stoking all those old issues, and making her even more determined not to make that leap with him specifically. 

 

Some people have argued that Ray isn't a believable choice, but I think he is from her perspective, he's every thing Oliver isn't: unambiguosly committed, and Lord knows he's not walking away from her. So yeah I can see how that plays on those issues and makes her *trust* Ray in way she can not trust Oliver, and her lack of real emotional feeling for him at this point, is also good because than any subsequent loss wouldn't sting nearly as much.

 

Having said that I think that's the story they've tried to tell and fucked up at every opportunity, because they continually write to plot, and plot says: No Olicity until 3.23, so while IMO we should  have cycled through all this character story in 3A instead it lurched form plot point to plot point, without connecting any of the dots. It says a lot that my favorite Olicity interactions happened on The Flash. What I've seen on Arrow, is Felicity talking past Oliver, and Oliver talking past Felicity without them ever really connecting and talking to each other. Ray should have been an Olicity motivator, it should have accelerated their union instead of delaying it interminably. I wish I was excited about anything coming up for them, but I'm really really not. 

 

I actually find myself more excited about Roy and Laurel really happening than anything with Olicity, but of course these tools have already veered away from it (according to Colton) before it has a chance to go anyway. SIGH.

[lemotomato]

On a much sappier note, now that Oliver's back in Starling, he can once again do that thing where he says Felicity's name while he's talking to her (twice in tonight's episode). I think he's done it in every episode that has a conversation between them. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

Interesting interpretation...

olicitylovers asked:
Dear God please answer me (MG = Olicity God lol) There's a debate going on at home. Oliver said 'I love you' to felicity but he hasn't shown 'love' correct, just words? Felicity shows love but hasn't said the words? At least answer one, please!

I put this under the category of a fair interpretation of the show.  I try to avoid telling our audience how to interpret a given scene or character dynamic.  I’d rather leave it up for debate/discussion.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 6, 2015 by tv echo

[jay741982]

Interesting interpretation...

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

I'd like to think the second half of the season will have Oliver show his love as well as say it. While Felicity who has shown it will say it. She has kinda said it a back handed way when she told Oliver that she fantasized about him coming back and things being different in the last episode

[Luckylyn]

I think it will be both I hate that I'd rather see Felicity single than be with Ray! He's just gross and I'm so sick of endless Pain for Olicity they have awesome Insane chemistry I just don't get why you don't put them together and Backburn the relationship!! It's not hard look at Dyla! Of course these showrunners are assholes and keep putting more misery on the screen so Dyla will be probably be screwed up too.

I grabbed this quote from the Clocktower thread.

I really think the writers should have handled Felicity/Oliver like Parks and Rec handled Ben and Leslie.  There were no lame triangles and that they loved each other was always clear.  The big obstacles came from outside them through their career issues because their romance had the potential to get them fired and Lesile lose her election.  There were some bumps between them as well when Ben wanted Leslie to stop doing pushing so hard to hold on to their friendship during a brief period when they broke up because being around her hurt him.     And after they were married there was some tension because as City Manager Ben had to be more neutral and sometimes had to reject Leslie's plans and she was frustrated he wasn't automatically on her side in all work issues.  They were a loving couple that had growing pains that were understandable based on who the characters are and interesting to watch.   Oliver and Felicity could be that sort of couple.

 

It would have been better not to let Oliver/Felicity go on the date or have Oliver declare his feelings while simultaneously reject Felicity.  The unnecessary one step forward ten steps back isn't interesting to watch.   It's just frustrating.  Contrived angst doesn't make me root for a couple but lose interest.   There's a reason I preferred Chandler/Monica on Friends over constant breakup/makeup Ross and Rachel.  If the writers don't have the creativity to just let Oliver/Felicity get together and let the drama and angst stem from other things then they should have kept them on a friends who flirt sort of dynamic having a major slow burn until the writers are ready to get them together.  Why not just let Oliver/Felicity be a secure couple who at times have fundamental disagreements on the right course of action and the usual tension when two people are combing their lives?  Mix joy and angst so it's not so miserable all the time.   Parks and Rec, The Office, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman etc.. have managed to have couples be together and still be interesting.  Only lazy writers buy into an "if a couple gets together it's boring" mentality and write a bunch of cliche angst.  

[jay741982]

I grabbed this quote from the Clocktower thread.

I really think the writers should have handled Felicity/Oliver like Parks and Rec handled Ben and Leslie.  There were no lame triangles and that they loved each other was always clear.  The big obstacles came from outside them through their career issues because their romance had the potential to get them fired and Lesile lose her election.  There were some bumps between them as well when Ben wanted Leslie to stop doing pushing so hard to hold on to their friendship during a brief period when they broke up because being around her hurt him.     And after they were married there was some tension because as City Manager Ben had to be more neutral and sometimes had to reject Leslie's plans and she was frustrated he wasn't automatically on her side in all work issues.  They were a loving couple that had growing pains that were understandable based on who the characters are and interesting to watch.   Oliver and Felicity could be that sort of couple.

 

It would have been better not to let Oliver/Felicity go on the date or have Oliver declare his feelings while simultaneously reject Felicity.  The unnecessary one step forward ten steps back isn't interesting to watch.   It's just frustrating.  Contrived angst doesn't make me root for a couple but lose interest.   There's a reason I preferred Chandler/Monica on Friends over constant breakup/makeup Ross and Rachel.  If the writers don't have the creativity to just let Oliver/Felicity get together and let the drama and angst stem from other things then they should have kept them on a friends who flirt sort of dynamic having a major slow burn until the writers are ready to get them together.  Why not just let Oliver/Felicity be a secure couple who at times have fundamental disagreements on the right course of action and the usual tension when two people are combing their lives?  Mix joy and angst so it's not so miserable all the time.   Parks and Rec, The Office, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman etc.. have managed to have couples be together and still be interesting.  Only lazy writers buy into an "if a couple gets together it's boring" mentality and write a bunch of cliche angst.

I agree with you regarding Olicity and why it's stupid that they can't be together. To cite another show to got its main couple together and made it work Chuck was another example.

[lemotomato]

I grabbed this quote from the Clocktower thread.

I really think the writers should have handled Felicity/Oliver like Parks and Rec handled Ben and Leslie.  There were no lame triangles and that they loved each other was always clear.  The big obstacles came from outside them through their career issues because their romance had the potential to get them fired and Lesile lose her election.  There were some bumps between them as well when Ben wanted Leslie to stop doing pushing so hard to hold on to their friendship during a brief period when they broke up because being around her hurt him.     And after they were married there was some tension because as City Manager Ben had to be more neutral and sometimes had to reject Leslie's plans and she was frustrated he wasn't automatically on her side in all work issues.  They were a loving couple that had growing pains that were understandable based on who the characters are and interesting to watch.   Oliver and Felicity could be that sort of couple.

 

It would have been better not to let Oliver/Felicity go on the date or have Oliver declare his feelings while simultaneously reject Felicity.  The unnecessary one step forward ten steps back isn't interesting to watch.   It's just frustrating.  Contrived angst doesn't make me root for a couple but lose interest.   There's a reason I preferred Chandler/Monica on Friends over constant breakup/makeup Ross and Rachel.  If the writers don't have the creativity to just let Oliver/Felicity get together and let the drama and angst stem from other things then they should have kept them on a friends who flirt sort of dynamic having a major slow burn until the writers are ready to get them together.  Why not just let Oliver/Felicity be a secure couple who at times have fundamental disagreements on the right course of action and the usual tension when two people are combing their lives?  Mix joy and angst so it's not so miserable all the time.   Parks and Rec, The Office, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman etc.. have managed to have couples be together and still be interesting.  Only lazy writers buy into an "if a couple gets together it's boring" mentality and write a bunch of cliche angst.  

This exactly. The showrunners (and even EBR) have kept insisting that putting together Olicity would make them less interesting, but there are tons of examples of other shows that have done it well. Friday Night Lights' Coach/Tammy is another example in addition to the ones you listed. The problem is, the Arrow writers are kind of creatively bankrupt and unoriginal, as this season can attest. 

 

I've seen comments from people who don't like Olicity that say they just don't like romantic drama in their superhero action show. If the showrunners would just put Oliver in a stable relationship (I prefer Olicity), and then let it just happen in the background, they'd probably make most of their audience happier than what's going on now. But this is a show on the CW, so that will never happen. 

[Luckylyn]

I've seen comments from people who don't like Olicity that say they just don't like romantic drama in their superhero action show. If the showrunners would just put Oliver in a stable relationship (I prefer Olicity), and then let it just happen in the background, they'd probably make most of their audience happier than what's going on now.

Exactly it's the contrived relationship angst that turns people off.  Just put them together and just have a splash of romance here and there.  Let saving the city be the focal point.

[jay741982]

This exactly. The showrunners (and even EBR) have kept insisting that putting together Olicity would make them less interesting, but there are tons of examples of other shows that have done it well. Friday Night Lights' Coach/Tammy is another example in addition to the ones you listed. The problem is, the Arrow writers are kind of creatively bankrupt and unoriginal, as this season can attest. 

 

I've seen comments from people who don't like Olicity that say they just don't like romantic drama in their superhero action show. If the showrunners would just put Oliver in a stable relationship (I prefer Olicity), and then let it just happen in the background, they'd probably make most of their audience happier than what's going on now. But this is a show on the CW, so that will never happen.

Well shit I'm very disappointed that EBR said that. That's so depressing

Well since EBR apparently likes this bullshit angst why even root for them to get together if Even Felicity herself thinks angst is the way to go. Does she not see the fans of Olicity who are tired of the bullshit

[MsSchadenfreude]

Actually Felicity does not think angst is the way to go.  Felicity is a fictional character.  The actress who plays her has her own opinion about this relationship and just because that opinion may not be yours doesn't mean it's bullshit.  Maybe EBR prefers playing emotional scenes instead of quirky, funny scenes.  As for her not seeing Olicity fans are tired of this bullshit, maybe it is because she understands that not all Olicity fans think the same way..

[kismet]

There was no way to put them back together in 312, if you had him chose to work with MM the way he chose to. He completely cut Felicity, Diggle and other people out of that decision making process. There is no way to move a relationship forward if your first decision upon returning from the dead is to make a unilateral decision with long term repercussions without discussing with those people that would be most hurt by the repercussions. His decision to align himself with MM changed not only his relationship to Felicity, but all his other relationships to Diggle, Roy, Laurel & Thea. The writers made the decision to take Oliver down a path, from which there is no immediate return. It was a good story/plot move. Its not even that angsty, because it is in line with what Oliver does. Oliver reacts to situations. He has good intentions, but questionable decision making abilities. Just like the woman u love line made no sense to me when it was spoiled, the Diggle convo about leadership also made no sense until the end of 312. Of course, Diggle is gonna try to shine some truth on the reality of what it takes to be a member of a team and the leader of a team. It is about more than just who is the alpha male or best fighter. Can Oliver really accept that the team is growing & evolving outside of just what he envisioned for them? Oliver spent the last 2.5 seasons building relationships of trust, loyalty, friendship & love with all the members of TA, new & old. And in on one conversation over tea, he discarded all that he had built aside and just went with the most reactionary choice. He reverted back to the S1 lone vigilante, making a unilateral choice, without considering his partners. Loving someone is about more than protecting them. I just don't think Oliver understands that just yet. He's still growing & emotionally recovering from the island/HK, so he's not quite learned that there are more ways to show/prove your love. He needs to start learning from his mistakes. He lied to Thea to protect her from the truth out of love, and look where it got her & him now? He tried to sideline Diggle & Roy out of love, but both times it had dire consequences. He pushed Felicity away multiple times out of love, and he finally lost her... Maybe the 3rd time is the charm. Maybe this time he'll begin to internally process what he is losing, not because of who he is, but because of the decisions he makes. It will take time, but I hope Felicity's convo stirs in him the beginnings of this internal journey. I hope his decision to finally include Thea into Arrow world stems from his desire to let her in and find another way to try to love/protect her. Eventually, he will come to realize that his original version of protection is not always the best way to protect or love, but that moment was not gonna happen in 312, and likely not for many eps. That's the big kahuna of realizations. Thats the one that takes him from arrow to Green Arrow, I don't know when the writers are gonna drop it on us, but its not gonna be for a little while, so we should all sit tight. I'm just glad that all the promoted angst last night was in character & hope that future episodes keeps that tone in mind.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm confused...did people get the feeling that Oliver came back wanting to pursue a relationship with Felicity, and that if she hadn't blown up at him, something else would have happened? Because I definitely did not get that feeling. The way the conversation went in the alley made it pretty clear to me that Oliver had no intention of doing "things differently" with Felicity. The shifty eyes when she recalled the "I love you," the sadness with which he acknowledged that she was referring to things between them. He didn't deny, or protest, or in any way indicate that he had hoped or planned to fix things. He is in the exact same mindset he was in 301 apparently. So in my eyes, that's just kind of double the reason for her to be like, "I don't really get what 'love' means to you, but whatever it is, I don't want it." (I HATE that this experience changed nothing about Oliver, btw. Cool character arc, MG.)

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, what I got from that conversation was that Felicity hoped that he'd come back with a new fervor for life, not wanting to waste a second of it, knowing how short and how valuable it was after being given another fresh start, and was disappointed because, nah. He wasn't having any of that, and not only was he not having it, he was setting himself up to get right back into the same position considering Malcolm's the one who engineered the circumstances under which he went off to his death in the first place. And I think her reaction was just, you know, you claim to love Thea and you claimed you loved Sara, but how much could you love them if you're working with the dude who brainwashed one to kill the other? If that's what love is then it doesn't mean much, she doesn't want any part of it, and she wouldn't want him making any such alliance for her.

[Password]

It's funny I didn't even take into consideration what Oliver's action meant long term because I was so busy enjoying the scene. I want Olicity together but I also want them healthy. It's easy to forget that Oliver isn't in a good position to be with someone yet, because he was so sweet adorable with his ILY. But the writers have done exactly what I didn't want: Oliver in vigilante mode. Only this time it's 20 times worse because he wants to work with MERLYN.

I decided to have patience with Olicity this season, but after that performance I have buckets of patience. I just really want to see it play out. What will make him realise what he's doing is...uninformed? Will Thea knock sense into him? Will Diggle throw tree loads of shade at him, or will he just realise how extremely lonely it is to be without the warmth family and love can bring? Where will it leave Felicity? What kind of decisions will she make? (I'm ignoring Ray because I can)

Bring. It.

[lemotomato]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Olicity this season because I feel like most of the stuff keeping them apart has been really contrived, EXCEPT for his decision to work with Merlyn. Disagreeing on whether the ends justify the means? That's good angst, as opposed to the miscommunication/lack of communication hijinks in 3x07.

 

I'd feel better about Olicity's chances if I didn't already know that Felicity is

going to date Ray until at least 3x17

. I'm starting to doubt that they're even going to resolve any of their issues by the end of the season because how can they have time for emotional beats when there are so many "epic" and "unbelievable" plot twists (per MG) planned?

[Danny Franks]

It's funny I didn't even take into consideration what Oliver's action meant long term because I was so busy enjoying the scene. I want Olicity together but I also want them healthy. It's easy to forget that Oliver isn't in a good position to be with someone yet, because he was so sweet adorable with his ILY. But the writers have done exactly what I didn't want: Oliver in vigilante mode. Only this time it's 20 times worse because he wants to work with MERLYN.

I decided to have patience with Olicity this season, but after that performance I have buckets of patience. I just really want to see it play out. What will make him realise what he's doing is...uninformed? Will Thea knock sense into him? Will Diggle throw tree loads of shade at him, or will he just realise how extremely lonely it is to be without the warmth family and love can bring? Where will it leave Felicity? What kind of decisions will she make? (I'm ignoring Ray because I can)

Bring. It.

 

How is it still up to Oliver? Felicity shut him down and told him she didn't want to be a woman he loves. Unless she changes her mind, that's the end of the story. If Oliver tries to force the issue, he'd risk looking as creepy as 50 Shades. And given that these writers seem to love shitting all over Oliver Queen, they'd probably actually have everyone in the show talk about how creepy and desperate and sad Oliver was being. And he'd look like a colossal tool if he started the season shutting her down, then as soon as she was moving on, he started pursuing her. Of course, that's love triangles all over, really. At least one, if not all three of the people involved, has to be a colossal tool for them to work as a plot device.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Danny Franks

[apinknightmare]

How is it still up to Oliver? Felicity shut him down and told him she didn't want to be a woman he loves. Unless she changes her mind, that's the end of the story. If Oliver tries to force the issue, he'd risk looking as creepy as 50 Shades. And given that these writers seem to love shitting all over Oliver Queen, they'd probably actually have everyone in the show talk about how creepy and desperate and sad Oliver was being. And he'd look like a colossal tool if he started the season shutting her down, then as soon as she was moving on, he started pursuing her. Of course, that's love triangles all over, really. At least one, if not all three of the people involved, has to be a colossal tool for them to work as a plot device.

 

Well, I imagine it would be as simple as saying that he understands that he's fucked up a few times and then he gives her some space and actually shows her that he loves her instead of saying the words and then repeatedly pulling away. He doesn't have to pursue her to do that. Then it's on her to come around if she wants to. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Olicity this season because I feel like most of the stuff keeping them apart has been really contrived, EXCEPT for his decision to work with Merlyn. Disagreeing on whether the ends justify the means? That's good angst, as opposed to the miscommunication/lack of communication hijinks in 3x07.

 

I'd feel better about Olicity's chances if I didn't already know that Felicity is

going to date Ray until at least 3x17

. I'm starting to doubt that they're even going to resolve any of their issues by the end of the season because how can they have time for emotional beats when there are so many "epic" and "unbelievable" plot twists (per MG) planned?

This show burns through twists and story right.? At this point he probably feels he's beaten down Olicity fans enough that we would consider them finally getting together in the last few episodes "Epic" and "Unbelievable". Of course this is the guy who's trying to tell us Ray is a viable option and capable of destroying what Oliver and Felicity have and that's he awesome by Felicity Propping him as well as "Doing his Best!" To Keep ol creepy eyes 50 shades around

[Password]

How is it still up to Oliver? Felicity shut him down and told him she didn't want to be a woman he loves. Unless she changes her mind, that's the end of the story. If Oliver tries to force the issue, he'd risk looking as creepy as 50 Shades. And given that these writers seem to love shitting all over Oliver Queen, they'd probably actually have everyone in the show talk about how creepy and desperate and sad Oliver was being. And he'd look like a colossal tool if he started the season shutting her down, then as soon as she was moving on, he started pursuing her. Of course, that's love triangles all over, really. At least one, if not all three of the people involved, has to be a colossal tool for them to work as a plot device.

She did shut him down, but that's why I'm interested to see how it's resolved. This is Oliver's biggest f-up concerning Felicity. (Concerning everything really) I want to see what they have him do. I want to see what Felicity does as a consequence. I'm still ignoring Ray but I do think it'll allow Felicity to get some perspective. If she's so resolutely shut him down, what choice will she have to make? Oliver obviously will have done or said something to make her change her mind.

I'm with you about love triangles though. They inevitably make me dislike the person in the middle of it, but up until now it hasn't seemed like a triangle. I'll write again when the triangulation happens, but right now Oliver getting himself out of this colossol idiocy is more important.

[blixie]

 

I HATE that this experience changed nothing about Oliver, btw.

 

Yes I love that Oliver has the same learning curve as Wild E. Coyote.

[BumpSetSpike]

Oliver is just not ready for an emotional, intimate relationship with someone.  I feel like people keep forgetting just HOW damaged Oliver is, and a lot of his stupid decisions regarding Felicity and being "in love" are scarred by the hell he has lived through and the things he has done.   I'm not saying that his decisions are the right ones or make sense, I just feel like people are expecting Oliver to make rational decisions regarding his love life when he isn't capable of it.

 

As for Felicity, I feel her pain.  She is somewhat more rational when it comes to love, and her expectations on what type of relationship she could have with Oliver are just not the reality.  Her 'fantasizing" of what could be when he was gone was really not fair to him because his near-death experience wouldn't instantly heal all of Oliver's inner wounds.  His near-death experience, rightfully so, pushed him even farther away from her because he has become even more damaged, yet again, because of what he will do for love.

 

Oliver doesn't show love by being romantic or being supportive - he protects, and even fights to the death (literally), for the ones he does love.  It is all he seems to know how to do.

Edited February 6, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[apinknightmare]

As for Felicity, I feel her pain.  She is somewhat more rational when it comes to love, and her expectations on what type of relationship she could have with Oliver are just not the reality.  Her 'fantasizing" of what could be when he was gone was really not fair to him because his near-death experience wouldn't instantly heal all of Oliver's inner wounds.  His near-death experience, rightfully so, pushed him even farther away from her because he has become even more damaged, yet again, because of what he will do for love.

 

I really don't think Felicity was talking about fantasizing that Oliver would come back and want to be with her. That might've been a small part of her dreams, but I think she was talking about a general differentness that she was expecting from him as far as his life is concerned. Oliver's the one who assumed she was talking about a relationship - she never said as much. He came back and all she sees is him making unilateral, stupid decisions and still in full-on mission mode. Last she knew he told her he thought he was going to die for that mission - I think she was hoping that would've changed (she doesn't know he told Diggle he didn't want to die down in the foundry), but instead he just jumped right back into the same deadly situation with both feet. She mentioned not wanting to be a woman he loved, but I don't even think she was talking about that from a relationship standpoint - he's teaming up with a man who drugged and manipulated one woman he loves to kill another that he also supposedly loved. If that's what love is to him, then I can see where she'd be hurt and not want to be a part of it. So I think she meant she didn't want to be a woman he loves with regards to what love means to him/makes him do, not that she didn't want him to love her because she doesn't want to be in a relationship with him.

[Carrie Ann]

I really don't think Felicity was talking about fantasizing that Oliver would come back and want to be with her. That might've been a small part of her dreams, but I think she was talking about a general differentness that she was expecting from him as far as his life is concerned. Oliver's the one who assumed she was talking about a relationship - she never said as much. He came back and all she sees is him making unilateral, stupid decisions and still in full-on mission mode. Last she knew he told her he thought he was going to die for that mission - I think she was hoping that would've changed (she doesn't know he told Diggle he didn't want to die down in the foundry), but instead he just jumped right back into the same deadly situation with both feet. She mentioned not wanting to be a woman he loved, but I don't even think she was talking about that from a relationship standpoint - he's teaming up with a man who drugged and manipulated one woman he loves to kill another that he also supposedly loved. If that's what love is to him, then I can see where she'd be hurt and not want to be a part of it. So I think she meant she didn't want to be a woman he loves with regards to what love means to him/makes him do, not that she didn't want him to love her because she doesn't want to be in a relationship with him.

 

I agree with your last point, but I do think she was talking about "things" being different both for Oliver generally, and for them possibly being together, when she referred to her "fantasizing." That she imagined he might, like you say, have gained a new perspective and appreciation for life, and also about what that would mean for them, since those two things are intertwined for Oliver. You're right that he's the one who says "you mean things between us," but she doesn't deny it or scoff at it or brush it aside. Her response is to say that before he left, the last thing he said was that he loved her. So I think it was sort of a tacit acknowledgment that, yes, she did partially mean that. But the next thing she says is that he came back talking about not only going back out on the same suicide mission, but this time to first train with this monster, and that told her that nothing has changed.

 

Maybe part of the reason I think she was talking about their non-relationship is that this is when MG said we would be hearing from Felicity about her feelings. And that is so annoying, because we heard nothing about her feelings, and we're still not really clear what she was hoping for. All we know is that she now wants nothing to do with Oliver romantically. And also, MG can keep patting himself on the back for that terrible line of dialogue, but it apparently wasn't clear enough because there is a substantial portion of the audience misinterpreting it to mean that Felicity doesn't want to be a woman Oliver loves because terrible things have happened to those women, rather than to mean that if this is how he honors those women or shows his love, then she doesn't want that.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

I agree with your last point, but I do think she was talking about "things" being different both for Oliver generally, and for them possibly being together, when she referred to her "fantasizing." That she imagined he might, like you say, have gained a new perspective and appreciation for life, and also about what that would mean for them, since those two things are intertwined for Oliver. You're right that he's the one who says "you mean things between us," but she doesn't deny it or scoff at it or brush it aside. Her response is to say that before he left, the last thing he said was that he loved her. So I think it was sort of a tacit acknowledgment that, yes, she did partially mean that. But the next thing she says is that he came back talking about not only going back out on the same suicide mission, but this time to first train with this monster, and that told her that nothing has changed.

 

Maybe part of the reason I think she was talking about their non-relationship is that this is when MG said we would be hearing from Felicity about her feelings. And that is so annoying, because we heard nothing about her feelings, and we're still not really clear what she was hoping for. All we know is that she now wants nothing to do with Oliver romantically. 

 

Yeah, I do think that the fantasizing about him coming back did include thinking that they could possibly be together, I just don't think that her disappointment in him and that conversation they had was because she was upset about them not being in a relationship - Oliver's the one who seemed to think that it was. He even tried to tell her she wasn't really upset that he was teaming up with Malcolm, but that she was upset because he didn't come back ready to go into a relationship with her (hello, Ray!). When she mentioned that the last thing he told her was that he loved her, my interpretation of that wasn't so much that she was acknowledging his assertion that she was upset about them not being together, but that she was actually shooting that down, because she followed it up with basically, 'You say that you love me, but this is what you for love. You team up with this dude who hurt the women you claim to love, and I don't want any part of that.'

Edited February 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[CabotCove]

That being said, a good reason im ok with how they handled it is that they haven't bumbled or mishandled the olicity arc, as they have with pretty much every other arc they have going this season

I honestly think they are ruining and mishandling the Olicity arc, its one of the most negatively affected storylines for me this season, if not the most. Im not their shipper but in the previous seasons, I almost couldn't find a reason to be against them, they were almost too healthy, but now I have tons of reasons. Now they are in danger of becoming the most unhealthy and toxic relationship in show, that's no small fit with the likes of Lauriver around. Ok maybe its not possible to get that bad. Its not just because of drama, thats almost a given in any show, its because their drama is becoming that of the worst kind. Weak reasoning and too contrived. And they are not even really together yet, how bad can it get when they finally are together.

The show had really two good options for them, either continue doing a slow burn or put them together and stay together, but they chose to go this ridiculous route. Whatever that is.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Conell

[Ang]

Yes I love that Oliver has the same learning curve as Wild E. Coyote.

Ha! This.

I am amazed that Felicity still has plausible deniability wrt her feelings for Oliver. It's been all looks, smiles, "embarrassing" double entendres, statements that maybe she's just applying to other people, and a lack of denials when other people tell her how she feels. (How many people have commented how many times? Moira, Barry, Diggle, Merlin, Oliver, I think even a couple randos? And each time, Felicity responds with what *might* be a tacit acknowledgment but also might be a polite redirection, "thanks for trying to reduce me to a stereotype, but I do have actual opinions about things beyond Oliver's abs, here.") I assume they're just saving it so Oliver (and the theoretical young males in their target demographic) can get a big payoff if/when she actually SAYS how she feels.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Ang

[jay741982]

Ha! This.

I am amazed that Felicity still has plausible deniability wrt her feelings for Oliver. It's been all looks, smiles, "embarrassing" double entendres, statements that maybe she's just applying to other people, and a lack of denials when other people tell her how she feels. (How many people have commented how many times? Moira, Barry, Diggle, Merlin, Oliver, I think even a couple randos? And each time, Felicity responds with what *might* be a tacit acknowledgment but also might be a polite redirection, "thanks for trying to reduce me to a stereotype, but I do have actual opinions about things beyond Oliver's abs, here.") I assume they're just saving it so Oliver (and the theoretical young males in their target demographic) can get a big payoff if/when she actually SAYS how she feels.

I think it's all leading to a payoff around May sweeps where they have the Big scene where she says it

[statsgirl]

I'm not sure where to put this.  It's about Oliver so I was going to put it there, but it's also about his relationships so I'm trying it here. Let me know, mods, if it should be elsewhere.

 

From the Felicity Smoak thread:

I suspect that she will start shining a little brighter but I'm not crediting Ray with that.  I see it as part of her reclaiming her life.  She claimed not to be waiting around for Oliver but while she was trying to move forward, she was still very much emotionally tethered to him.  I don't thinks she's stopped feeling what she's felt for him all along but by him completely disillusioning her as to who he is and what he stands for, I think she now feels like there is noting for her to be waiting around for no matter what she feels.  I also think that thought process is spurred on by an awful lot of hurt and anger, not to mention a good dose of fear, but that cocktail has been brewed strong enough to keep her not looking back for quite some time. 

We hear a lot about the people Oliver loves --  Robert, Moira, Thea, Laurel, Sara, Felicity.  I think Oliver believes he loves them but I don't think that what he feels for them is love.

 

With Robert, he admired him, he was shocked at what his father did, and he vowed to make up for Robert's mistakes.  But that's fairly easy to decide to do, there are no grey areas especially for the killer that Oliver became. With Moira, it was harder because he was angry at her although in the end, when they bonded over Thea being missing and she revealed that she knew he was the Arrow and was proud of him, they reached an equilibrium.

 

Frat boy Oliver thought that buying Laurel things and sexing her up was love.  Lying and cheating was just part of that for him. He liked Sara and enjoyed her love of life, and after the Queen's Gambit went down, he felt responsible for her and in a sense loved her but not the romantic love we think of in connection with the world.

 

With Thea and Felicity, he says he loves them but he's making decisions for both and refusing them their own autonomy, with Thea in going to fight Ra's for her while refusing to tell her what Malcolm has been doing to her and letting her make her own decisions, and with Felicity in completely controlling all the aspects of their relationship and not allowing her any say.  Maybe Felicity dropping a truth bomb and walking away may cause him to reconsider but I'm not putting any money on it.

 

I think Oliver loved Tommy, enough that he's willing to change himself for him (something he won't do for anyone else). I think he comes close to loving Diggle.  (Bros forever)  I also think Oliver loves Starling City.  But in terms of Thea, Laurel, Sara and even Felicity, even now I don't think he knows what real love is.

[BkWurm1]

Now they are in danger of becoming the most unhealthy and toxic relationship in show, that's no small fit with the likes of Lauriver around. Ok maybe its not possible to get that bad. Its not just because of drama, thats almost a given in any show, its because their drama is becoming that of the worst kind. Weak reasoning and too contrived. And they are not even really together yet, how bad can it get when they finally are together.

 

I hate the constant pain and angst and darkness and grief and the distance and all the other reasons that keep them apart but I as much as I miss their old dynamic, I don't really think at the core their issues are completely contrived.  I think Oliver has been an idiot but he's very convinced and I haven't had any trouble believing he thinks he can't be in a all in kind of relationship and then this latest conflict feels perfectly justified.  I can be frustrated and tried of this relentless dark path but I can't put a toxic label on it because their two big issues feel real to the characters. 

 

That the show runners won't pull back for more than a second to let these characters breath or have more than one "happy" episode is different than the reasons why Felicity and Oliver aren't together.  I do think it's totally contrived that Oliver didn't come back wanting more but that's an issue apart from relationship angst IMO.    

[BkWurm1]

I think Oliver loved Tommy, enough that he's willing to change himself for him (something he won't do for anyone else). I think he comes close to loving Diggle.  (Bros forever)  I also think Oliver loves Starling City.  But in terms of Thea, Laurel, Sara and even Felicity, even now I don't think he knows what real love is.

 

I think Oliver does know that what he feels for Felicity is different than what he'd called love before.  She has his trust.  They were friends and partners long before he realized he was in love but I think it if fair to say that he doesn't know how to express love or how to put faith in it. 

 

He was getting it from Felicity when neither of them put a label on it and he was thriving.  He was just soaking up the smiles, the jokes, the caring.  He was letting himself rely on others.  He listened to Felicity. 

 

Since the date that really wasn't, he's rejected even the small slice he was basking in during the normal day to day stuff.  He's stopped listening to others.  He's only relying on himself.  He's not just bad as showing love, but he won't let it reach him anymore and he sure as hell won't let himself partake of it anymore.  Felicity was allowed to hug him, but did it really feel like he was hugging her back?

 

He's so incredibly isolated, maybe as much as he ever was.  He didn't just reject a future possible relationship, but he cut off the current one he'd been letting himself have.  

 

And now I'm making myself rather sad. 

 

There had better be some profound payoffs coming our way. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

Agree with @BkWurm1. As much as the angst between Oliver and Felicity is wearing on me a little because it's such a big change from their relationship of the last two seasons, I could never ever label them as toxic or anything like Lauriver. They're attempting to move their relationship beyond what it was and that was always going to cause problems, especially with someone with issues like Oliver. The miscommunication and lack of conversations between them does feel a little contrived but their conflicts are character driven, for the most part. Plus their relationship is based on loyalty and trust and a solid friendship rather than a history of constant cheating and lies. There's just no comparison.