Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[KenyaJ]

Like Felicity would never touch his cheek before.

 

Unless she would.

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by KenyaJ

[ban1o]

 

 

I think I read so much hiatus fanfiction that their progression to flirty-flirt and being a couple was seamless to me.

Haha I don't really read fan fiction at all so maybe that's why the progression felt a little unnatural. They were cute though! 

Unless she would.

can't see that picture. I assume it's a picture of Felicity touching his cheek? :P 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[SonofaBiscuit]

Just because Oliver and Felicity's relationship are in the process of hitting several thousand road bumps doesn't discount how much they feel for one another. I think that we will see development between them regardless of who she's dating. But more importantly, I think we'll see individual development in regards to their relationship. Oliver will learn to find his humanity (most likely through Felicity), and Felicity will become a stronger more independent woman.

 

 

Pulled this over from the Bitterness thread.  The EPs are in a tough spot because they know (IMO) that Olicity is a big draw for the show, so they're going to want to keep developing that relationship.  But how do they go about doing it without making Oliver look like a giant douche?  Oliver just told Felicity "maybe not now, maybe not ever."  He closed to door on anything more right now, so if he continues to flirt, make eyes at Felicity, touch her, etc. won't that look like he's giving her false hope, thus reflecting badly on him?

[KenyaJ]

Yes, from "The Crucible. " Felicity and Oliver are physically comfortable with each other, and the plant exchange (and Diggle and Roy's reaction to it) indicates they spent a lot of the hiatus openly flirting with each other. Based on all their previous touchy-feelings with each other (e.g., the way Oliver caresses Felicity's arm when she pulls him away to talk at the party in "The Scientist" and the way she returns the favor when she and Barry leave the lair in "Three Ghosts," I have no problem believing that they became more demonstrative in their physical interaction with each other over the missing five months.

I would've liked to have seen the progression, but it felt natural to me. Probably because I will buy whatever Stephen and Emily are selling together.

Edited October 13, 2014 by KenyaJ

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yes, from "The Crucible. " Felicity and Oliver are physically comfortable with each other, and the plant exchange (and Diggle and Roy's reaction to it) indicates they spent a lot of the hiatus openly flirting with each other. Based on all their previous touchy-feelings with each other (e.g., the way Oliver caresses Felicity's arm when she pulls him away to talk at the party in "The Scientist" and the way she returns the favor when she and Barry leave the lair in "Three Ghosts," I have no problem believing that they became more demonstrative in their physical interaction with each other over the missing five months.

I would've liked to have seen the progression, but it felt natural to me. Probably because I will buy whatever Stephen and Emily are selling together.

 

I really like Olicity and it is one of the main reasons I watch the show (the other being Original Team Arrow trio).  It's easy for me to believe that Felicity would have become even more comfortable touching Oliver because she was already initiating hugs and other types of touches.  I would have liked to have seen Oliver's progression, though, because last we left him, he was still on the shoulder touch and intense eye sex level of the spectrum.  Now he's smiling, and hugging, and holding Felicity's face, and initiating the kiss.  Like I said, I need some flashbacks to the five months we missed...for what others have referred to as "scientific reasons."

[blixie]

 

But how do they go about doing it without making Oliver look like a giant douche?

 

I've heard a lot people stick up for Oliver's pushing Felicity away, he's not ready, blah blah blah. I just can't even with that, it's S3 and essentially what they are telling me is that this mofo has REGRESSED in over two years, because in S1, he was CEO of QC, and dating half the female population of Starling City. Brilliant take  your hero on journey where he is more emotionally stunted than when he began.

 

We supposedly had him learning that he does need others (Felicity, Diggle, Sara, Roy)  to be a better man and a better hero, and that he learned that shallow (Isabel) and toxic (Helena, Laurel) romantic relationships weren't going to work out well, that instead of avoiding someone he really cares about, that he should be making a *concerted effort* to be with someone he really cares about. Yet at the very first indication that heh guess what your life it includes the DANGERS he's back to this is MY crusade I can't do anything but one thing because I have the emotional maturity and focus of 12 year old on Jolt.

 

Repetition of theme is important but there is only so many times they can step on the exact same beat before I want to kick them in the nads. I reached that in The Calm, it was one step forward (being honest about being a chickenshit), 15 steps back AFAIC. Like I wish that Felicity had actually kicked Oliver in the nads, like Buffy did to Angelus, because he's practically at that level of mind fuck. I'd like John Crichton to call Oliver and tell him to kiss his ass and that of Aeryn Sun and Baby D'Argo.

 

So yeah my patience for Oliver to *get the hell over it* is only going to last to mid-season.

[Guest]

Pulled this over from the Bitterness thread.  The EPs are in a tough spot because they know (IMO) that Olicity is a big draw for the show, so they're going to want to keep developing that relationship.  But how do they go about doing it without making Oliver look like a giant douche?  Oliver just told Felicity "maybe not now, maybe not ever."  He closed to door on anything more right now, so if he continues to flirt, make eyes at Felicity, touch her, etc. won't that look like he's giving her false hope, thus reflecting badly on him?

 

I think it depends on how they handle it. With Oliver shutting things down right now, I don't see him openly flirting with Felicity like the way he did in 301. But I do think they should show him longing for her in subtle ways. A few looks here and there, that kind of thing. Just because he doesn't think he can be with her right now doesn't mean he's going to fall out of love with her and I think it's important that they show that, at least to the audience. Showing Felicity is a different matter. The kiss and the backwards way of telling her he loved her was one thing. That was a heightened emotional moment and he was desperate and couldn't lie to her. But if he continued to do that while she's trying to move on, then yeah. He's a douche. 

 

Yes, from "The Crucible. " Felicity and Oliver are physically comfortable with each other, and the plant exchange (and Diggle and Roy's reaction to it) indicates they spent a lot of the hiatus openly flirting with each other. Based on all their previous touchy-feelings with each other (e.g., the way Oliver caresses Felicity's arm when she pulls him away to talk at the party in "The Scientist" and the way she returns the favor when she and Barry leave the lair in "Three Ghosts," I have no problem believing that they became more demonstrative in their physical interaction with each other over the missing five months.

I would've liked to have seen the progression, but it felt natural to me. Probably because I will buy whatever Stephen and Emily are selling together.

 

Same. I thought their progression was natural. I believed that they had reached this point in their relationship but I won't lie. I would have preferred to see it. Seeing hints of it in the 2.5 comics is not really good enough and this is where the time jump is a disservice. But it's really not as if their feelings came out of nowhere. I guess some find it hard to read romantic subtext. And the big fat "I love you" in the s2 finale. 

 

So yeah my patience for Oliver to *get the hell over it* is only going to last to mid-season.

 

 

I agree. But I feel like it might work out that way. I think perhaps Oliver will slowly come to his senses by episode 10 or 11 but that's when Felicity will probably be dating Ray, that is if that storyline is as predictable as they are suggesting. But I really hope Oliver doesn't continue too long on his 'I can't be with the woman I care about' routine because he has seriously been saying the same thing since s1 and it does grow a little tiresome.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Guest

[Kymmi]

Man, what kills me in that kiss scene is the way Oliver says "oh Felicity" just before he kisses her. It's so full of love and desperation and remorse for hurting her and sadness for both of them. just beautiful work from SA there. MY ♥

 

This moment keeps breaking my heart (because I keep watching it, apparently).  Oliver has made the decision that he can’t be Oliver Queen and the Arrow, and to be the Arrow he needs to give up Felicity.  But when she pushes him to make it forever and suggests he tells her he never loved her so she could move on, he broke.  I think for him, lying that he never loved her (as opposed to dancing around it on the island), takes it away from him.  And I think for him, that glimpse of humanity that he had, however fleeting, is very important.  The idea of rejecting that it ever happened was too much and the vulnerability that moment brought leads to the kiss.  And the face holding.  And I’m just going to be over in the corner weeping.  Quietly.

[Nanrad]

The kiss and manifestation of love just showed how unwilling he was to lie to her. I don't think he wanted her to think that he doesn't love her because it couldn't be further from the truth. Did he have to say he loves her? Nope. Didn't have to silence her "Nevers" with a kiss either but this is television and we need drama. He could've just allowed her closure and said nope, never going to happen but what would be the point.

 

That makes me think of Laurel and how he always lied to her, but she's supposed to be his true love and who knows him the best, yet; Oliver can't bring himself to lie to Felicity about his feelings and she calls him out on his crap. Love isn't just saying the words, it's your behavior as well. And, maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but I honestly believe that loves transforms a person. We are supposed to believe that Oliver is/was in love with Laurel, but he constantly lied to her, hurt her, and just couldn't be a better person. Even when he came back from the island, it was still lying and hurting others (Tommy). Now, with Felicity, even though he doesn't believe he can be with her, he's honest (to a point of selfishness some would argue) and refuses to lie about his feelings. He doesn't want her to ever believe that he doesn't love her because that's just flat out wrong and he kisses her to drive home the point. 

 

The date scene and the hospital scene is where we see two instances of Oliver's transformation--clearly, it wasn't complete since he still believe he can't date and be Arrow, but it's enough that he's stopped lying; he's open and honest. He doesn't want to misled. We see honest reaction like happiness at having someone to confide in and telling the truth. We see heartbreak for these same reasons. The conversation came off as very mature. With Laurel, it would've something overdramatic. But, with Felicity it was subtle.

[ban1o]

Do you mean on her own accord? Because she actually has touched his face before. The wiping of the "blood" scene from his face in front of Isabel.

lol okay that's different than patting his cheek out of affection. But its nbd lol. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ban1o

[Password]

I know many see Oliver's action at the hospital as selfish but I won't lie, I get a kick out of the two of them always being honest with each other. They never lie and that is so rare and refreshing I can't fault him for not having the strength to let go. Felicity got some stick for telling him about Moira's lies and I also found myself somewhat annoyed because I don't like people interfering with others family business. But when you think it through, the episode before Oliver was saying Slade found out from Ivo about Shado instead of him. She didn't want Oliver to find out from somewhere else that she knew because their relationship is built on trust and honesty. It's sticking to narrative and I love it.

[foreverevolving]

I've heard a lot people stick up for Oliver's pushing Felicity away, he's not ready, blah blah blah. I just can't even with that, it's S3 and essentially what they are telling me is that this mofo has REGRESSED in over two years, because in S1, he was CEO of QC, and dating half the female population of Starling City. Brilliant take  your hero on journey where he is more emotionally stunted than when he began.

 

We supposedly had him learning that he does need others (Felicity, Diggle, Sara, Roy)  to be a better man and a better hero, and that he learned that shallow (Isabel) and toxic (Helena, Laurel) romantic relationships weren't going to work out well, that instead of avoiding someone he really cares about, that he should be making a *concerted effort* to be with someone he really cares about. Yet at the very first indication that heh guess what your life it includes the DANGERS he's back to this is MY crusade I can't do anything but one thing because I have the emotional maturity and focus of 12 year old on Jolt.

 

Repetition of theme is important but there is only so many times they can step on the exact same beat before I want to kick them in the nads. I reached that in The Calm, it was one step forward (being honest about being a chickenshit), 15 steps back AFAIC. Like I wish that Felicity had actually kicked Oliver in the nads, like Buffy did to Angelus, because he's practically at that level of mind fuck. I'd like John Crichton to call Oliver and tell him to kiss his ass and that of Aeryn Sun and Baby D'Argo.

 

So yeah my patience for Oliver to *get the hell over it* is only going to last to mid-season.

 

I have a huge issue with your point of view, regarding Oliver progression. Mainly because- as i have stated, either in this thread or a different one- that I know someone who was a war prisoner, I know people who were in active combat. In some ways, Oliver was a war prisoner. he has an obvious case of PTSD, survivors guilt and a boat-load of other emotional and physiological issues. He lived 5 years of his life with none or very little happiness, constantly fighting for to survive. In the last two years he has lost both his pseudo brother and his mother- among others. and that's just the physical lost, learning your mother was also part of the plan to level the city.. well, I... you know, that's.. yea.

 

Saying that Oliver relationships in the last two years showed that he was progressing is false. well okay maybe not false but... *sigh* you don't just get over issues like the ones i stated above (if you ever truly get over them), progression with psychological and emotional issues is always one step forward fifty steps back. However! no matter how much we want we can never erase that one step we took, muscle memory- sort of.

 

That is what everything that happened in the premiere was all about. Oliver, for a short time, got a taste of what it can be like to be both Oliver Queen and the Arrow together, merged- fused- cohabiting- in him. And up until that rocket blew his date up, he was loving every second of it. He had Hope- can you imagine having Hope and than seeing it, literally, blowing up in front of you?

The progression comes from the fact that his past relationship in the last two years, while meant something, in reality meant nothing to him. Neither of those women inspired him to want to become a better person- a hero, none gave him actual hope for a normal life; neither of those women, in his eyes, were a person, they were all (one way or another) a means to an end, a threat, a target (even Mckenna to a degree- he was spying on her!! for info about her investigation into the Arrow).

 

So while on the surface Oliver is currently regressing to the familiar and emotional safety of the Arrow, he is in fact actually progressing. The fact that he now knows he wants that everyday normality, he wants to be with Felicity and love her and for her to love him back, Without all those fears and emotional issues getting in the way.

This season is going to be all about him understanding that that little glimpse, that taste he had in the premiere, that co-existing.. It CAN be a lasting reality for him. He CAN be both the Arrow and Oliver Queen. I think the real struggle is going to be next season, when he will start to work on balancing the two identities inside of him. Until he learns how to do that, he will never be able to fully commit to Felicity, no matter how much he wants to and surprisingly he understands that. And that is where the progress is!

 

ETA: That part of the regression we saw in the episode was, as Oliver stated, because he was afraid of Oliver Queen.

And i can see why and how it is affecting his decisions: Oliver doesn't know who Oliver Queen is. while most of us spend our 20's doing some hardcore soul searching (well I am i don't know about the rest of you) Oliver didn't have that luxury, he was busy transforming into the Hood. He knows who Ollie Queen was- a cheating douche, he knows who The Hood was- a killer, he knows who The Arrow is- a raising Hero. but he has no idea who Oliver Queen is. he never had the chance to find out. Which is where this season theme "Identity" is going to factor in his progression. Oliver needs time to search and figure who Oliver Queen is before he embarks on any lasting meaningful romantic relationship with Felicity (because we all agree they're endgame); however, at this moment, this is not something Felicity can have a part in. That is a quest he must take on his own.

 

is any of what i wrote makes any sense to anyone?

Edited October 13, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Password]

This season is going to be all about him understanding that that little glimpse, that taste, he had in the premiere, that co-existing.. It CAN be a lasting reality for him. He CAN be both the Arrow and Oliver Queen. I think the real struggle is going to be next season, when he will start to work on balancing the two identities inside of him. Until he learns how to do that, he will never be able to fully commit to Felicity, no matter how much he wants to - and surprisingly he understands that. And that is where the progress is!

 

I loved that he was that emotionally self aware this episode. I was surprised and comforted at the same time because he's generally dumb about such things. I think this is the season Oliver needs to show emotional growth. As much as we love tortured heroes we don't like regression much particularly when no one calls a spade a spade. I have less issues with regression when the person regressing is called out on it. And Diggle actually did that when he said something like you

can't let this beat you.

 

It has the potential to be a great year for Oliver personally. I'm willing to see where it goes.

 

I agree with @forevervolving that the trauma Oliver has been through isn't something overcome over night. But at the same time, some progression has to be seen. And I was irritated by the whole

this is my crusade

thing when 2 episodes ago he was all "This started with the 3 of us. It's time we got back to that." and not to mention "I need you. You're my partner." But again, I'm willing to see where the story goes.

[statsgirl]

David Ramsey said in an interview that Diggle is about five years ahead of where Oliver is in terms of relationships. That's a good way to put it.

Pulled this over from the Bitterness thread.  The EPs are in a tough spot because they know (IMO) that Olicity is a big draw for the show, so they're going to want to keep developing that relationship.  But how do they go about doing it without making Oliver look like a giant douche?  Oliver just told Felicity "maybe not now, maybe not ever."  He closed to door on anything more right now, so if he continues to flirt, make eyes at Felicity, touch her, etc. won't that look like he's giving her false hope, thus reflecting badly on him?

The way they are making this work for me is that he's not just doing it with Felicity, he's also doing it with Diggle and QC too.  He wanted QC but then, after the explosion, he's all "I need to focus on being the Arrow, Ray Palmer will handle it better".  And he's pushing Diggle away as he is pushing Felicity away, using them for their expertise, his military and her tech, but grounding Diggle and not letting Felicity in in order to keep them both safe.

 

So the way they're writing it, it's not about Oliver and Felicity, it's about Oliver and everything in his life that he loves.  That will hold me for half a season, maybe the whole season.

 

I know many see Oliver's action at the hospital as selfish but I won't lie, I get a kick out of the two of them always being honest with each other. They never lie and that is so rare and refreshing I can't fault him for not having the strength to let go. Felicity got some stick for telling him about Moira's lies and I also found myself somewhat annoyed because I don't like people interfering with others family business. But when you think it through, the episode before Oliver was saying Slade found out from Ivo about Shado instead of him. She didn't want Oliver to find out from somewhere else that she knew because their relationship is built on trust and honesty. It's sticking to narrative and I love it.

I love love that they are always completely honest with each other, at least after Oliver got done with the bad lies that Felicity saw through.  That is one of the true strengths of their relationship.

 

Something that was great in the restaurant scene is that he opened up to her and told her not just facts about his time away but also about his feelings and how it changed him. That was in direct contrast to how he's been with Laurel and later with McKenna, shutting both of them down when they asked about the five  years. Felicity didn't ask; he offered and offered more than he's told anyone else (although Diggle's probably got a good idea of it from his own past).

 

Also, not surprised that Felicity knew he didn't spend all five  years on the island but she didn't ask and she didn't reproach him for not telling her sooner.

[KenyaJ]

The honesty between Oliver and Felicity -- even when it's possibly to their own detriment -- has always been my favorite thing about their relationship, so I also loved Oliver's inability to tell Felicity he didn't love her. I may not have loved it as much if it had swayed Felicity, but since my girl's backbone was firmly in place and she walked away anyway, I loved it even more.

He wanted QC but then, after the explosion, he's all "I need to focus on being the Arrow, Ray Palmer will handle it better".

I'm really glad they had Oliver say that, BTW. I remember this summer, some people were wondering "How can Felicity betray Oliver by accepting a job with his rival?" But the show basically negated that by having Oliver realize it was shortsighted of him to want control of QC back in the first place. I'm excited Felicity can go back to having a great job and the "but what about Oliver?" aspect of it is no longer an issue.

 

I don't know how I'll end up feeling about Ray and Felicity's interaction, but I'm really excited for Ray and Oliver's interaction, and how Ray will push Oliver both personally and professionally.

[Nanrad]

Honestly, I enjoyed that Felicity wasn't surprised he didn't spend all of his time on the island. And this is one of the many reasons why Felicity is filled with win. Some of her detractors try to claim she's a Mary Sue, BUT Felicity is allowed to be smart and piece things together naturally. We've seen her side eye Oliver and his lies and it's completely natural for her to question if he spent all of his time on that island as well. There wasn't anything accusatory about he admitted to it, she she interested to know where else he'd been. The writers may be bad at romance, but they were good with this and the overall build up to what led to them agreeing to go on a date. 

 

We see Felicity piece together Oliver's mindset when he's talking to Diggle--she knows what that means. We see her understand where Oliver is about to say in the hospital and asking for closure, even if it's a lie, so she can move on. And when he refuses to give her that, we see her walking away because this isn't right or fair to her. Whether or not Oliver did the right thing for his own mental health doesn't negate that fact that he put her in a compromising position emotionally. To say that they can't be together, but refuse to deny being in love with her so she can let go. It's a mature response--it's something that Laurel can't pull off. Here's what I mean: I think KC would over or underact it. Emily played it well. Also, I think it would either be overdramatic or some other groan worthy response. 

 

Changing gear: upon further thinking: why would Laurel go back to Oliver? He was a shitty boyfriend and fucked her sister (and dated her on another occasion). The more I think about this relationship, the more problematic it is. We've seen nothing to indicate why they dated in the first place and why they even stayed together and Laurel has even less reason to want to get back with him. They haven't spent enough time together for her to really know the new him and fall in love with Olive again.

[statsgirl]

Changing gear: upon further thinking: why would Laurel go back to Oliver? He was a shitty boyfriend and fucked her sister (and dated her on another occasion). The more I think about this relationship, the more problematic it is. We've seen nothing to indicate why they dated in the first place and why they even stayed together and Laurel has even less reason to want to get back with him. They haven't spent enough time together for her to really know the new him and fall in love with Olive again.

Why else?  Because comics!

 

And because Katie Cassidy that when Laurel found out that Oliver was the Arrow, she loved him even more.  Other than that, no reason I can think of, especially since Felicity understans him so much better, and is a better partner for him.  And that his relationships with Laurel both past and present were a mess of projections and being in love because they want to be in love, not because they love the other person.

 

I think KC would over or underact it

I'm going to have nightmares thinking about that.  I think she would overact it as she did with the break-up with Tommy, tears and begging and temper tantrum.  EBR quietly walked away, wiping away a tear.

Edited October 13, 2014 by statsgirl

[Nanrad]

Someone told me that there were positives in Laurvier. I was like, "Wha..." Whatever positives there were are far outweighed by the negative. What Oliver did to Laurel, most people wouldn't forgive and, if they did, it would take a long time to get there--unless they lacked dignity/pride.

[Chaser]

In terms of Oliver and Laurel, I could get behind it if the bad behavior was in the past. If they acknowledged in the beginning of S1 that these were two different people. If Laurel had got over her angry by mid-season and Oliver was actively just trying to learn how to be a friend again. If Oliver had accepted and never came between Laurel and Tommy. If Oliver had supported her after Tommy's death and nothing romantic had started between them until mid S2. That is ALOT of ifs.

 

The show did the opposite of everything they should have done. End of S1 and the whole of S2 killed any type of romantic relationship between them for me. I can't even see why she would want to be friends with them. They didn't just say its a toxic relationship; they showed exactly why it was.

[KirkB]

Yeah, but people get into and go back to toxic relationships all the time. That's part of the problem.

Edited October 14, 2014 by KirkB

[Tangerine]

Somebody on Tumblr just pointed out that Oliver is wearing basically the same outfit when he kissed Felicity as he did when he first met her. If this couple isn't end game, the writers are pure evil. Which I'm beginning to suspect may very well be the case these days. If you'll excuse me, I'll be in the fetal position for awhile.

[wonderwall]

If you'll excuse me, I'll be in the fetal position for awhile.

Edited October 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[Nanrad]

Yeah, but people get into and go back to toxic relationships all the time. That's part of the problem.

The problem is that the writers wants us to believe that they are good for each other. 

[statsgirl]

Why the writers think they could sell Oliver and Laurel being good for each other in a relationship is beyond me, but I think they think they can.

 

People do go back to toxic relationships but usually there is passion there, no alternative, and often not enough money to live apart.  Oliver and Laurel at this point are just nothing, at least on Oliver's side.  I can't see why Laurel would want him back if she's got an alternative other than he's the Arrow and still high status.

 

It amuses me to no end that Oliver needed scotch and Felicity took Benzos before their dinner.  Even as well as they know each other, this mattered so much to them.

Edited October 14, 2014 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

Somebody on Tumblr just pointed out that Oliver is wearing basically the same outfit when he kissed Felicity as he did when he first met her. If this couple isn't end game, the writers are pure evil. Which I'm beginning to suspect may very well be the case these days. If you'll excuse me, I'll be in the fetal position for awhile.

 

 

I tried to post a screen capture from the (i think) original post but it doesn't seem to be working. The shirts do look similar but the neckline is different, I think. The one from first season is a V neck, while the one from the S3 premiere goes straight before it becomes a V neck. Anyway, here's the link.

Edited October 14, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[apinknightmare]

 

I tried to post a screen capture from the (i think) original post but it doesn't seem to be working. The shirts do look similar but the neckline is different, I think. The one from first season is a V neck, while the one from the S3 premiere goes straight before it becomes a V neck. Anyway, here's the link.

That double v he's got going on is the worst. He needs a woman in his life just to steer him clear of that again.

[Nanrad]

http://leftenantscullbagg.tumblr.com/post/99969029667/red-pen-vs-blue-pen

 

So, what are our thoughts on this. She may have given it more thought than the writers, but maybe not.

[wonderwall]

That double v he's got going on is the worst. He needs a woman in his life just to steer him clear of that again.

...Maybe Felicity will change all that

 

--Diggle (best advice giver, followed by Sara (who incidentally is on a long vacation in Bali with Nyssa))

[wonderwall]

http://leftenantscullbagg.tumblr.com/post/99969029667/red-pen-vs-blue-pen

 

So, what are our thoughts on this. She may have given it more thought than the writers, but maybe not.

ooffffff, this is actually really brilliant! Too brilliant for the writers to ever come up with tbqh. Regardless, I'll bite. I think that this is an accurate representation of what's actually going on. Ray Palmer is the safer choice as of now, not that Felicity actually has a choice. I think that choosing Ray (her second choice) would make Felicity painfully aware that she will never truly be as happy with him as she could with Oliver, however, that's the crappy hand that she's been dealt. But I don't think Felicity's story ends if she ever takes the blue pill considering we know Ray will become the Atom and because I think he'll come to know that Felicity works for the Arrow at some point. 

 

And that red pill? Yeah, I can definitely see that being Oliver. Why? All you have to do is listen to Felicity in episode 2x21 where she says that if it wasn't for Oliver she would be stuck in some boring lowly IT job. Oliver colored Felicity's world just as Felicity colored his. She essentially lives in a different universe when she's with Oliver especially with all the crime fighting. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[foreverevolving]

Okay, you know what i just realized as i was looking at those shirt pics?

besides the obvious he is wearing the same outfit. i was thinking about the symbolism to Oliver character and his retreat back into the comfort zone that is Arrow.

does that make any sense? it's 2:30 my brain is all kinds of fried up by now, but i swear it makes total sense in my head.

 

I may edit this post and elaborate, but my brain needs sleep first.

[Nagevs]

Why the writers think they could sell Oliver and Laurel being good for each other in a relationship is beyond me, but I think they think they can.

 

 

Hubris. These writers have plenty of it, but as far as I'm concerned, one of the most well received character's on the show (Felicity), was in spite of them not because of them.

[Velocity23]

 

Ummm why would they do things like that.

[Password]

When fans do things like this it makes me wonder how aware the writers and EPs are of the comparisons one can make. Perhaps they do it purposefully, but I really don't think so.

[Nanrad]

Can someone post that one tumblr post again where it shows how much Laurel contradicts herself throughout the series?

 

Things I'm tired of: being accused of disliking Laurel/Laurvier because of Felicity/Olicity. Why can't people just admit that not only is/was the relationship bad, it was horribly constructed. Liking a character and a ship, doesn't negate how mishandled the former is/was. Honestly speaking, at best, I see two years after Oliver's return for a relationship to happen--anything less isn't realistically, IMO. I don't think it was realistic for Laurel to sleep with Oliver and be so conflicted about her emotions in the first season. I'm sorry, I just don't see a person getting into a relationship again with someone she didn't know well, who cheated on her with her sister, who "died" in a boat accident with her sister, and who she believed was a man child getting back into a relationship with him so quick. Everything I just said are very valid reasons for being against the relationship and has nothing to do with Olicity or is BS, but that's why I'm constantly accused of. lmfao. Reasons I hear about why it would work, "Everyone is different"/"Oliver has changed." Sure, but the person who is supposably different is more likely an idiot than just really, really forgiving, which Laurel isn't. Oliver HAS changed, but the emotionally trauma he inflicted upon Laurel hasn't. Laurel isn't obligated to give him another chance because he's changed. She most likely wouldn't want to be involved with him either way. 

Velocity, the funny thing about that comparison is it overall high lights their interaction with Oliver. Before Laurel found out Oliver was Arrow, she was unsupportive and ridiculed/insulted him on many occasions about his abilities to be serious and take responsibilities. Felicity, acknowledged that Oliver lacked experience, but that she still believed that he could make a difference and prove people wrong. :-l   I seriously DON'T get the writers. They want us to like Laurel, but Felicity is the one who plays the supportive partner/friend/love interest better than Laurel ever has and could. It's not just the acting, it's the writing as well. They literally write Felicity better. 

[Velocity23]

  

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

  

 

http://iknowwhatcanhelpyou.tumblr.com/post/84808959130/whoever-he-is-hes-willing-to-sacrifice-an-awful

[JJ928]

I disliked Lauriver before Felicity even existed, and I've also been told that I don't like them because of Olicity. Personally, I hated that back-story just like everyone else I know who watches that show. To me, having him cheat on her with her sister was a huge fuck up. I could have maybe gotten over it, if it was just some random woman, hell, maybe even a friend. But it was her sister and that's just gross.

 

On top of the terrible back-story, I didn't really feel any chemistry between the two. I know it's subjective, but when most of reviewers are saying the same thing - you have a problem. The writers were not clueless about this, why else would they spend season 2 retconning Laurel/Oliver? Something they continued in the premier this year, with his confession of Felicity being the first person he saw as a person.

 

The problem is that the one relationship that really did work for Laurel was the one between her and her sister, now she's left with nothing. Yeah, she and her dad have nice moments but you can't compare them. Hopefully she'll click with Ted because I will want to stab my eyes out if her chemistry with him is anything like it was with Oliver.

 

Just a note: I didn't even start shipping Olicity until 1x15, when they were in the foundry & she walked out on him and Diggle.

Edited October 14, 2014 by JJ928

[Velocity23]

So someone link this old KC interview from S1 where she compared Laurel & Oliver to Dawson & Joey!

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/05/08/arrow-katie-cassidy-interview-dawsons-creek/

 

So i guess Laurel is Dawson in that scenario. And thats why all the talk about soulmates!

Edited October 14, 2014 by Velocity23

[dtissagirl]

HAHAHA, KC was a Dawson/Joey 'shipper. THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHINNNNG.

 

[Laurel is obviously Dawson.]

Edited October 14, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Guest]

Wow. That gif set of Laurel is just…wow. I hadn't seen it before but it makes the 'I know you like I know my own name' speech even more ridiculous omg. Do the EP's even watch their own show?!

 

I was the same with L/O. I disliked them instantly. The backstory was enough to put me off even if the two actors had chemistry which, in my opinion, they do not. Nothing could save that pairing for me and nothing ever will, all because he slept with her sister. It's gross.

 

As for Olicity, I didn't actually start shipping it 'full on' until much later in s2, even though I really loved all of their scenes and thought they had amazing chemistry. I had convinced myself that they would never go there so I think I tried to stay away from actively shipping them to save myself the pain! So yeah. My dislike of L/O has NOTHING to do with my love of O/F. But I think that's just a 'clutching at straws' excuse for L/O fans to use tbh. 

[apinknightmare]

HAHAHA, KC was a Dawson/Joey 'shipper. THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHINNNNG.

[Laurel is obviously Dawson.]

And they both have terrible cry faces.

[foreverevolving]

And they both have terrible cry faces.

I don't know, the Dawson crying gif is iconic- for better or worse. can't say the same about ms. soul-mates.

[olicityfan25]

So basically from that one gif of Laurel calling Oliver/TheHood a coward she will be one herself if she becomes BC. Barf in my mouth for having to type that.

[statsgirl]

 

Ummm why would they do things like that.

I really don't think they know they're doing it.  Master of the Universe is a comic book term, isn't it?  Guggenheim was one of the writers on both those episodes so he could have just used a phrase he likes, in the same way the matching island scenes with Felicity doing the same things Oliver did earlier had the same director of photography.  It's stupid if you're building Oliver to be with Laurel but I do think it's a co-incidence.

 

I hated Oliver/Laurel long before Felicity showed up, and it wasn't because of the backstory because I could have got beyond that.  It was the interactions between Oliver and Laurel and how unbelievably nasty Laurel was.  

 

 

 

  

 

That is a scene that killed me.  Okay, she doesn't know he  just got back from fighting to save Walter and his family and curing Diggle but wow, what a bitch. She's so superior. so enjoying being nasty to him. This is beyond anger for what he did with Sara, she's enjoying hurting him. She enjoys hurting other people, whether it's her father, her mother, Oliver or the scene in the trailer for tomorrow's episode.

 

It's not just that we've seen how much Oliver has suffered and later Sara so we feel sorry for them and not Laurel.  We didn't see much of how Quentin or Dinah suffered and wow, I feel sorry for them having a daughter like Laurel.

[Velocity23]

I guess Felicity will have the Matrix choice!

 

[bethy]

OK one more. In the episode where Helena reappears (Return of the Huntress?) there's a great scene in the lair when Oliver is talking to Helena and saying he doesn't know where the FBI is keeping Helena's father. Felicity walks in saying she's always wanted to hack the FBI computers, and Oliver immediately starts yelling (or barking, maybe not full out yelling) "Get out, get out!" Felicity slows and stops, and Diggle comes out from where he was standing/lounging by the computers and gets between Oliver/Helena and Felicity.  His hand is out-stretched to Felicity in what I took as an "It's OK" sort of gesture, like he was trying to soften Oliver's much more brusque reaction to Felicity's presence.  I love that Oliver's reaction is pure emotion - he's terrified that Felicity is there and that Helena has seen her, which makes complete sense given that he'd just seen Helena hurt Tommy. And I love that Diggle's reaction - even disliking Helena as he does and had just said - is much more tempered. Maybe even concerned about how Felicity might feel being yelled at like that.  I also love that Felicity doesn't get mad or flounce out, but is just kind of, "Okaaaaay" as she turns to leave.

 

Oh, AND, that when she's leaving a message on Oliver's phone, Diggle's clearly already filled her in about who Helena is and presumably why Oliver flipped out.  I love that Diffle evidently felt the need to call Felicity to explain.  And refer to Helena as Oliver's psycho ex-girlfriend.  Hee.

 

Plus both of the boys rushing to Felicity's office to save her from Helena.  Aw.

OK one more. In the episode where Helena reappears (Return of the Huntress?) there's a great scene in the lair when Oliver is talking to Helena and saying he doesn't know where the FBI is keeping Helena's father. Felicity walks in saying she's always wanted to hack the FBI computers, and Oliver immediately starts yelling (or barking, maybe not full out yelling) "Get out, get out!" Felicity slows and stops, and Diggle comes out from where he was standing/lounging by the computers and gets between Oliver/Helena and Felicity.  His hand is out-stretched to Felicity in what I took as an "It's OK" sort of gesture, like he was trying to soften Oliver's much more brusque reaction to Felicity's presence.  I love that Oliver's reaction is pure emotion - he's terrified that Felicity is there and that Helena has seen her, which makes complete sense given that he'd just seen Helena hurt Tommy. And I love that Diggle's reaction - even disliking Helena as he does and had just said - is much more tempered. Maybe even concerned about how Felicity might feel being yelled at like that.  I also love that Felicity doesn't get mad or flounce out, but is just kind of, "Okaaaaay" as she turns to leave.

 

Oh, AND, that when she's leaving a message on Oliver's phone, Diggle's clearly already filled her in about who Helena is and presumably why Oliver flipped out.  I love that Diffle evidently felt the need to call Felicity to explain.  And refer to Helena as Oliver's psycho ex-girlfriend.  Hee.

 

Plus both of the boys rushing to Felicity's office to save her from Helena.  Aw.

[foreverevolving]

I guess Felicity will have the Matrix choice!

 

Okay! someone needs to make this into a Arrow related poster. change Morpheus face with Felicity's and place Oliver on the side with the red pill and ray on the one with the blue pill.

Please someone make it happen!

[wonderwall]

I keep reading comments that Oliver/Felicity came out of nowhere and that 3x01 was the result of 'obvious fan pandering'... I guess the hints over the past two seasons were pretty subtle and the people who watch it actually don't pay attention? Or am I getting something wrong here... Here are some of the subtle hints I can think of:

• "I didn't realize you and Oliver were..." - Barry Allen
• "If you ever decide that Oliver isn't the guy for you..." - Barry Allen
• "I think you didn't have a problem with Felicity's performance until she met Barry Allen" - John Diggle
• "I see the way you look at Oliver" - Moira Queen
• "I've imagined this in different circumstances... very platonic circumstances" - Felicity Smoak
• "Does everyone really think Felicity and I are...?" - Oliver Queen
• "...it must be difficult for you seeing Oliver and Sara together" - John Diggle
• "I think you used the corporate jet for a weekend of fun with your assistant" - Isabel Rochev
• "You need someone who can harness the light that's in you" - Sara Lance (then there's that scene where Oliver/Felicity hug)
• "Because of the life that I lead, I don't think I can be with someone I could really care about" - Oliver Queen
• When Oliver basically kills the count in order to save Felicity when he really didn't have to kill the count with 3 arrows. 
• "He had you and he was going to hurt you, there was no choice to make" - Oliver Queen. Yes, there was a choice. 
• "I love you" - Oliver Queen (and he didn't take it back)
• Basically all of the longing looks between them (and there were a lot)
• The non-existence of personal space when it comes to them
• Felicity's entire speech in 2x22 when Oliver is about to give up on himself. 
• Oliver carrying Felicity after the car crash in 2x22 instead of his own bow which he gives to Diggle

Their relationship didn't come out of nowhere. While one could argue that the 'love' part was too rushed, you can't really argue that there was nothing there between the two before 3x01. I just don't get it? 

Edited October 15, 2014 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

It didn't come out of nowhere.  I don't even think the audience needed to be paying close attention either.  It was pretty obvious there were at least some romantic feelings being implied just by the sheer number of gazing-at-each-other-without-even-saying-anything scenes they threw at us.

[dtissagirl]

• Oliver carrying Felicity after the car crash in 2x22 instead of his own bow which he gives to Diggle

 

With a seriously busted knee. Even his knee is in love with Felicity.

Edited October 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

In TVland you aren't in love until you've hit the sheets. So Felicity can't love Oliver and Oliver can't love Felicity. 

 

It doesn't matter that everything between them is founded on trust, friendship, respect, loyalty, acceptance, support. It can't be love.  

 

At least it isn't love on The CW. In the real world it is a great foundation, but on the CW the only requirement for love between two people is how good they look together naked.