Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[TrueMyth]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

Ray's stalker tendencies were off putting, but if I happened to randomly catch a scene between him and Felicity on TV without having any prior knowledge of Arrow or Olicity I would probably think they made sense. In that same situation I'm pretty sure I could plausibly mistake Billy/Felicity as distant cousins. Which is weird because Ray/Felicity have far more similarities. 

The writers actually gave Susan similar treatment to Ray early on.  I think the writers have too much fun with using new characters to introduce conflict and tension (sure, it's writing 201 to make sure there is tension and drama within scenes to move plot).  With Ray, not only did they have the stalker stuff, but they also gave him an ominous end note to an early season three episode when he gets access to the encrypted chip thanks to Felicity and boots up the schematics of all those weapons.  We now know that they are for his suit, and maybe a viewer with comic experience would know that this was the Atom suit (Not sure about that last part), but the direction and music coding was very dark times.  This is just like the bits with Susan meeting with her P.I. source and the slow pan across the Russian vodka.

I think the producers framed them both that way to create interest in Ray and Susan and to and dramatic tension for the audience because we know these new characters are doing things that could be bad for Team Arrow.  The problem is, neither of them are fully paid out later in clear terms.  In both cases, the tension becomes less about what the new character is doing and more about different members of Team Arrow (Felicity vs. Team Arrow, and Thea vs. Oliver) having different opinions about those actions.  We never really see Felicity (in the case of Ray) or Oliver (in the case of Susan) process the down sides of the dirty dealings.  This is confusing for the audience because these are our view point characters for the new guys, so the show's codes tell us: "BAD DEAL," then "naw, it's not a big problem," then "wait other view point characters actually think it's a BAD DEAL."  If we'd had more insight into why Felicity is okay with the suit and why Oliver is okay with Susan's investigation (STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS ONE MYSELF), then the second conflict within Team Arrow makes more sense.

Susan's original storyline going against Thea is similar to Ray's stalking.  I think both are supposed to establish professional competence for Susan and Ray.  Look, Susan is a cutthroat reporter who will manipulate to get what she wants.  Look, Ray is a super hacker, too, who can use technology almost as well as Felicity.  In both cases, the writers focus so much on how "bad ass" these characters are in going up against our team members, are so amused by the drama created in the "worthy adversary" scenarios, that they forget that they have pitted the new characters who we are supposed to LIKE against people that we ALREADY like.  We don't like people messing with Thea or Felicity, no matter how good they are at it.

The only way that these initial adversarial characters really jell well into an established cast is if they soon help our heroes go up against a common conflict so that the audience sees that their expertise is useful and that they "aren't that bad after all."  With Ray, he is kept on "Palmer Island" for a long time before his conflict with Oliver is resolved, and we really don't get an explanation about why Felicity goes from putting fart noises on his phone to being happy to work with him (except for the fact that almost all the steps she takes forward with Ray are a reaction to Oliver pushing her away).  With Susan, we never get a real idea of how her reporting can be "good."  Her positive light comes from Human Target saying "bro, she wants to hit dat" and the fact that Oliver, for whatever reason, never feels personally threatened by her.  So, they ultimately did a better job with Ray, but I think the same structural problems exist.

If they wanted Susan to work as a "good" character, they still could have had her "crush" Thea, but ended with some kind of note that made it clear she had a good reason for doing it.  I honestly don't remember what the first scoop was, but I would have liked her much more if it was something legitimately needed.  I mean, the fact that the mayor is moonlighting as a vigilante and actually killing people... that's BIG.  That's something a good and pure reporter SHOULD want to expose.  If she was written in that light, her relationship with Oliver and the character herself becomes much more interesting and easy to accept as a potential love interest.  They also should have made sure to include her at the big press briefings, too, to make her feel like a real part of the world and also a good political reporter.

[bijoux]

@TrueMyth, I have to honestly say that I've never given it that much thought, but everything you wrote makes perfect sense,

[TrueMyth]

56 minutes ago, bijoux said:

@TrueMyth, I have to honestly say that I've never given it that much thought, but everything you wrote makes perfect sense,

<Stage Whisper> I may or may not be avoiding reading a 60 page textbook on "The Future of English" to prep for a class I'm teaching this fall.  May or MAY NOT. </Stage Whisper>

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, TrueMyth said:

<Stage Whisper> I may or may not be avoiding reading a 60 page textbook on "The Future of English" to prep for a class I'm teaching this fall.  May or MAY NOT. </Stage Whisper>

That actually sounds like a really interesting topic.  I'm jealous.    

[Mellowyellow]

I accidentally stumbled on the deleted S2 kiss again yesterday and it threw me for a loop! Was a good kiss! 

Then I stumbled on Oliver's hallucinating kiss in S3 and it took me ages to work out what it was! Bad shipper! Especially one who loved S3! 

[statsgirl]

On 2017-07-24 at 3:43 PM, TrueMyth said:

With Ray, he is kept on "Palmer Island" for a long time before his conflict with Oliver is resolved, and we really don't get an explanation about why Felicity goes from putting fart noises on his phone to being happy to work with him (except for the fact that almost all the steps she takes forward with Ray are a reaction to Oliver pushing her away).

What I liked about Ray was that he appreciated Felicity's smarts and gave her positions at or above her current level (VP, and later giving her his company).  Oliver had an affection for her but basically he just used her in the way that benefited him the most, first as "internet researcher for Oliver Queen" and later as his EA.  We give him the excuse that he was traumatized from his five years but basically from the time he met Felicity to the end of s3, it was about what was best for Oliver Queen, not what would be good for Felicity.

Ray lost a lot of points with me for not telling Felicity that the suit was working and dismissing her in 3x17 but then he backed down and broke up with her knowing she loved Oliver and even gave her his company so I liked him again.

With Susan, she never did anything to make me like her. Even after she was dating Oliver, she was still looking into him as the Green Arrow presumably to bring him down.

On 2017-07-23 at 4:07 AM, BkWurm1 said:

When it mattered most, he didn't listen or appreciate her base of wisdom enough TO listen.  And it got him killed.  That's the same kind of crappy behavior she got with Ray and Oliver.  And I swear he let her think that he was listening to her, so I count that as a lie.   

I seem to be the only Billy fan here so I'll keep this short.  That was an impossible situation for him.  He was a cop and on the Task Force so he couldn't back down no matter what she said.  It was a case of "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", which was his job to catch a dangerous serial killer. 

Would anyone have respected him if he had failed to do from his job because his girlfriend told him it was too dangerous and her friends would handle it for him?

In terms of not asking what she did all day, it's quite probable that Felicity may have been out looking for work and described whatever else she had been doing all day because she had to be doing something.  Since Oliver was mayor, helping the Green Arrow would have only taken a few hours of each day.

Edited July 30, 2017 by statsgirl

[way2interested]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

What I liked about Ray was that he appreciated Felicity's smarts and gave her positions at or above her current level (VP, and later giving her his company).  Oliver had an affection for her but basically he just used her in the way that benefited him the most, first as "internet researcher for Oliver Queen" and later as his EA.  We give him the excuse that he was traumatized from his five years but basically from the time he met Felicity to the end of s3, it was about what was best for Oliver Queen, not what would be good for Felicity.

To be fair, making her VP was using Felicity in a way that benefited Ray the most (to get her to help him make his ATOM suit). The position itself was a front to get her on his side (like giving her the necklace and the dress for that dinner in 307) and then later he developed feelings for Felicity after working with her. He did give her the appreciation she deserved at the time, but part of it was for his own gain and in the narrative it was only supposed to build Ray up as a legitimate rival/romantic lead compared to Oliver at the time. And the EA stuff is kind of the only situation where I think it could be comparative as showing that Ray showed better appreciation for Felicity than Oliver did. The "internet researcher for Oliver Queen" was way before he ever brought her in (and during a time when he likely never meant to bring her in and only just kept going back to her because she was good at what she did- a form of appreciation- and possibly because he liked visiting her) and during a time where she was indirectly working for him, so I don't really count that. The EA stuff was what was best for Oliver himself and that was why Ray made her a VP, to differentiate him from Oliver in a way that she would feel appreciated more, both in the narrative from the writers as someone in a "love triangle" and in that world as new employee of an employer who really wants her on his team.

Beyond that, I'm more on the side that he gave her the appreciation/attention that she didn't get with Oliver almost throughout s3 (saying "almost" because there are still some moments of Oliver showing appreciation for Felicity like in 305, 316, 317, but not enough because you know, gotta make sure the audience "loves" Ray rather than their main character for some reason). This isn't trying to down Ray as much as it's just me just kind of not seeing Ray as this kind of guy who innocently appreciated Felicity.

56 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I seem to be the only Billy fan here so I'll keep this short.  That was an impossible situation for him.  He was a cop and on the Task Force so he couldn't back down no matter what she said.  It was a case of "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", which was his job to catch a dangerous serial killer. 

Would anyone have respected him if he had failed to do from his job because his girlfriend told him it was too dangerous and her friends would handle it for him?

The way I saw it was through the timeline of how they showed Billy (He's a detective, he's Felicity's bf, he finds out someone is killing cops, to try to stop the cop-killer he helps the Green Arrow, to help more he joins the task force, he finds out that Felicity works with the Green Arrow). He decides that he has to do something in the investigation for Prometheus by checking up on something on his own despite being part of a Task Force (which is what he joined to help out because the Green Arrow didn't fix anything) and being told by Felicity that the Green Arrow was on it (which is what he did first to help out). The argument could then be that all of the other options didn't work so he was taking things into his own hands, and I do see/agree with that argument, but I do also kind of see it as strange that he went on investigation by himself without the task force after his gf (and to a lesser extent, Oliver, who both had slightly more info as to what was really going on, which he likely did know) told him not to, plus the idea of being disrespected vs. being dead, which is kind of what Felicity's thought process was. 

[wonderwall]

34 minutes ago, way2interested said:

To be fair, making her VP was using Felicity in a way that benefited Ray the most (to get her to help him make his ATOM suit). 

And then when Ray finally got his suit to work he didn't even have the decency to wake Felicity up to tell her about it. He abandoned her her in bed after they had sex for the first time and then went on a joy ride with his suit. Felicity should've been told about the breakthrough and should've been there to see it work for the first time because she was integral in helping make the suit. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by wonderwall

[way2interested]

52 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

And then when Ray finally got his suit to work he didn't even have the decency to wake Felicity up to tell her about it. He abandoned her her in bed after they had sex for the first time and then went on a joy ride with his suit. Felicity should've been told about the breakthrough and should've been there to see it work for the first time because she was integral in helping make the suit. 

Yeah, like, he gave her the VP spot, but kept the real reasons a secret and then once he told her the real reason didn't share the fruits of their labor. He was giving her attention in a romantic way, but then didn't believe her/trust her once he found out that Oliver was the Arrow. He's not the worst temp love interest in these shows or anything, but he did have significant flaws that could help to show why Felicity chooses Oliver over him. 

[insomniadreams88]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I seem to be the only Billy fan here so I'll keep this short.  That was an impossible situation for him.  He was a cop and on the Task Force so he couldn't back down no matter what she said.  It was a case of "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", which was his job to catch a dangerous serial killer. 

Would anyone have respected him if he had failed to do from his job because his girlfriend told him it was too dangerous and her friends would handle it for him?

In terms of not asking what she did all day, it's quite probable that Felicity may have been out looking for work and described whatever else she had been doing all day because she had to be doing something.  Since Oliver was mayor, helping the Green Arrow would have only taken a few hours of each day.

I guarantee you that you took more time to type this out than anyone working on the show took to think about Billy as a character because he didn't matter beyond "Felicity's boyfriend killed by Oliver and an excuse for Oliver to date Susan for that (crappy) storyline." 

They never addressed what Felicity told him she did all day or even how they met because those facts didn't matter for the story they were so determined to tell. 

[statsgirl]

Awww, but I like Billy now that he's dead.  Normally I hate intermediate LIs with the passion of a thousand suns but I didn't dislike Billy, just his existence.

I agree though, they only thought about Billy so far as to give Oliver permission to sleep with Susan and to have someone to kill who should make him feel guilty but not so important as to affect the show.

4 hours ago, way2interested said:

To be fair, making her VP was using Felicity in a way that benefited Ray the most (to get her to help him make his ATOM suit).

True but at least it was mutually beneficial, unlike Oliver making Felicity his EA which probably had everyone thinking she earned the position for skills other than office ones.

I didn't mind that Ray didn't wake Felicity up show her that the suit worked. But I'm furious that he waited weeks to tell her though, and that he took her facial imaging software for it and didn't tell her much less ask her for it.

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

True but at least it was mutually beneficial, unlike Oliver making Felicity his EA which probably had everyone thinking she earned the position for skills other than office ones.

I didn't mind that Ray didn't wake Felicity up show her that the suit worked. But I'm furious that he waited weeks to tell her though, and that he took her facial imaging software for it and didn't tell her much less ask her for it.

I agree with that for the EA stuff, but I was just saying that Ray making Felicity his VP wasn't under innocent genuine appreciation terms and therefore doesn't make him this super duper appreciative love interest compared to Oliver. Oliver made her his EA to keep up appearances at the expense of their (mostly Felicity's) reputations, but when she found out he told her the real reason and in the end Felicity didn't quit either job and just kept going. Ray made her his VP to get her to secretly help her with his suit (after going to lengths to almost force her to work for him and using her help in stealing her friend's family company and, at the time, her ticket to her old job), but when she found out he told her the real reason and in the end Felicity didn't quit either job and just kept going. So in the end I kind of don't see too much of a difference (other than the VP stuff ending up better for Felicity because it put her on the CEO path, a significant difference in the EA vs. VP thing, but just ultimately inconsequential to how I'm viewing it because I could just as easily say that Oliver bringing her on to Team Arrow ended up better for Felicity too) because I just kind of focused more on the relationship aspect of Ray because that was his main role in s3 anyway. To me, Oliver and Ray both appreciate her, just at different times in the plot and in different ways and they both have misgivings that don't ultimately make them terrible, just flawed like any human being.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I seem to be the only Billy fan here so I'll keep this short.  That was an impossible situation for him.  He was a cop and on the Task Force so he couldn't back down no matter what she said.  It was a case of "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", which was his job to catch a dangerous serial killer.I seem to be the only Billy fan here so I'll keep this short.  That was an impossible situation for him.  He was a cop and on the Task Force so he couldn't back down no matter what she said.  It was a case of "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", which was his job to catch a dangerous serial killer.

 

5 hours ago, way2interested said:

The way I saw it was through the timeline of how they showed Billy (He's a detective, he's Felicity's bf, he finds out someone is killing cops, to try to stop the cop-killer he helps the Green Arrow, to help more he joins the task force, he finds out that Felicity works with the Green Arrow). He decides that he has to do something in the investigation for Prometheus by checking up on something on his own despite being part of a Task Force (which is what he joined to help out because the Green Arrow didn't fix anything) and being told by Felicity that the Green Arrow was on it (which is what he did first to help out). The argument could then be that all of the other options didn't work so he was taking things into his own hands, and I do see/agree with that argument, but I do also kind of see it as strange that he went on investigation by himself without the task force after his gf (and to a lesser extent, Oliver, who both had slightly more info as to what was really going on, which he likely did know) told him not to, plus the idea of being disrespected vs. being dead, which is kind of what Felicity's thought process was. 

 

Yeah, it's not just that he ignored Felicity when she asked him to stay out of it, it's that he took no precautions even after she warned him of the danger.  But I also don't think that "the man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" is a good reason to go and get yourself killed if there were other options.  He didn't need to check out the lead himself.  He could have handed it off to the GA or gotten at least someone to watch his back.  In the end, him "needing" to keep going and going it alone shows maybe a level of arrogance we hadn't realized before about his character.  His certainty that he needed to be involved had him walking into just the kind of situation I'm sure Felicity was worried about (getting caught off guard, not the Oliver shooting him part, lol) 

[LeighAn]

Wouldn't Felicity have made more as an Executive Assistant to the CEO of a Fortune 500 company then a low level IT person not in management.

I mean in season 1 Felicity said she worked under some one so she wasn't in management role and I'm assuming her job role was that of a company help desk person which the average salary is around $40-$50,000 a year.

An executive assistant to the CEO would be on double that. Good executive assistants can be on like $70-$80,000 a year. 

So in terms of Oliver offering her the position yes it's not in her field but it's not like he was making Felicity the mail girl or something. EA of big companies actually have huge responsibilities and can make a very high wage if they are valued enough and high enough up the food chain. It's not just making coffee and collecting dry cleaning.

[statsgirl]

It's not about the money.  It's about what she wants to do about her life.  Felicity worked hard to get into MIT early and graduated with double masters degrees. That is what she wanted to do with her life, IT, tech, hacking. Even though she was in a job far below her talents, it was still doing what she wanted to do.  Oliver didn't give her a choice.

It's also unfair to those people who go to college to be EAs. It's a profession, not a fallback  Felicity would have got a lot of hate from other QC employees who wanted that job and been angry that someone unqualified got it over them.

This hits home to me because early in my working life, I applied to be a writer at an ad agency.  There were no current openings but they put me in a departmental secretary position, the understanding that the first creative position that came open would be mine.  It didn't again and again and I finally figured out it was because two of the other EAs wanted my position and they didn't want to pick between them. (It wasn't the best run agency.)  A year and a half later I'd had enough and returned to school.  No matter how much money it was, it wasn't what I wanted to do with my life.

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

Ray made her his VP to get her to secretly help her with his suit (after going to lengths to almost force her to work for him and using her help in stealing her friend's family company and, at the time, her ticket to her old job), but when she found out he told her the real reason and in the end Felicity didn't quit either job and just kept going.

IIRC Ray didn't tell her about the ATOM suit until months after she had been working for him.  I believe him when he said that went looking for her because he had heard things about how good she was at tech. She assumed he wanted her as his EA; he wanted her for her IT abilities. By then she'd reconciled with Ray taking over QC.   He made her a VP, he took her to dinner with the guy he wanted to buy the ore from as his date and found out she was good at that kind of corporate work too.  It wasn't until around ep 15 (?) that he told her about the suit and got her help with it.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, it's not just that he ignored Felicity when she asked him to stay out of it, it's that he took no precautions even after she warned him of the danger.  But I also don't think that "the man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" is a good reason to go and get yourself killed if there were other options.  He didn't need to check out the lead himself.  He could have handed it off to the GA or gotten at least someone to watch his back.

He should have taken someone else with him.   But he couldn't have handed it off to the Green Arrow, GA is a vigilante, an occasionally wanted criminal, and he's the police.

Edited July 31, 2017 by statsgirl

[LeighAn]

I guess the argument as I'm reading it is Ray was a better guy because he made Felicity VP while Oliver made her an EA as though being an EA is a demotion when in reality being made an EA to the CEO of that size company would have meant more money and greater responsibility and probably higher ranking in the office food chain then what she was doing in her IT role which came across like a help desk type job. 

 

And also realistically it's not like being Vice President would have been tapping into the technical hacking side of a thrill that Oliver didn't already provide Felicity by welcoming her in on his mission. Being on Team Arrow gave Felicity more personal fullfillment both in using her brains and skills and need to do something more with her life.

 

So I just don't see how Ray giving her a Vice President job makes him a better guy when Oliver also promoted Felicity AND gave her a personal mission that challenges her both personally and intellectually in a way no job she has does. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

It's not about the money.  It's about what she wants to do about her life.  Felicity worked hard to get into MIT early and graduated with double masters degrees. That is what she wanted to do with her life, IT, tech, hacking. Even though she was in a job far below her talents, it was still doing what she wanted to do.  Oliver didn't give her a choice

If Felicity as an EA had gone more than a season I would be more upset about it, but she got to be furious and she was back to being in her field by the next season so it was a temporary thing I could let go of. Plus for Oliver, only the mission mattered so from his standpoint he wasn't making her his EA for his selfish wants, but for the good of the city.

 

23 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

He should have taken someone else with him.   But he couldn't have handed it off to the Green Arrow, GA is a vigilante, an occasionally wanted criminal, and he's the police.

He was the police but had gone out of his way to meet the GA because he believed in him and wanted to work with him.  Knowing when to take a step back and let the GA take the lead should have been part of that.  Even more so IMO when he found out Felicity worked with him.  He should have been more willing to listen and back off but maybe his pride wouldn't let him defer to letting Felicity and the GA handle it.

[Featherhat]

Hmm, I don't think Ray valued Felicity's worth over Oliver at all and he certainly didn't have any altruistic reasons at first. In his first episodes he's entirely focused on what he wants, not what she wants, he just uses different means to get it. When she refuses to work for him he buys out the company she works for so that he will be her "boss" at least as douche-y as Oliver unilaterally making her his EA without asking. He makes her VP with out actually *offering* her the job because the writers wanted that "twist". He's using her expertise to get at the ATOM suit which he is obsessive about (see LOT Aruba;) ) without bringing her in until he needs her and then doesn't tell her it worked. Both he and Oliver are using her skills for what they perceive to be their mission without necessarily considering what she thinks, at least in terms of day job.

Oliver making her his EA without consulting her was certainly bad and unsurprisingly opened her up to all sorts of nasty rumours but I wonder if it would have happened anyway if Oliver consistently called her up to his office for TA stuff or went down to IT or called her manager to second her to him for a few days. Unless anyone knew about TA consistently being requested by Mr Queen or seen often with him in public was only ever going to lead people to one conclusion. Hell probably "working closely" with Ray got the same tongues wagging since it was probably the same staff that had seen her "close" to Oliver.

[TrueMyth]

10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

What I liked about Ray was that he appreciated Felicity's smarts and gave her positions at or above her current level (VP, and later giving her his company).  Oliver had an affection for her but basically he just used her in the way that benefited him the most, first as "internet researcher for Oliver Queen" and later as his EA.  We give him the excuse that he was traumatized from his five years but basically from the time he met Felicity to the end of s3, it was about what was best for Oliver Queen, not what would be good for Felicity.

Ray lost a lot of points with me for not telling Felicity that the suit was working and dismissing her in 3x17 but then he backed down and broke up with her knowing she loved Oliver and even gave her his company so I liked him again.

With Susan, she never did anything to make me like her. Even after she was dating Oliver, she was still looking into him as the Green Arrow presumably to bring him down.

I agree that what the writers did well with Ray was pairing him with a fan favorite in Felicity.  However, he was still relatively isolated from the rest of the cast for vast swaths of his season, as was Susan.  If you DON'T like Felicity, the fact that he treats her well or develops feelings for her doesn't endear you to him.  If you DO like Felicity, there's a chance (a good chance, to judge from this board) that you still don't like him because he takes time from a possible Felicity centric storyline or from OTA or Olicity.  If they had continued Ray's interactions with Oliver (I loved the remote control boxing episode) and/or connected him more with other storylines, then the audience could see him as a more rounded character.

I felt he made a great foil for Oliver.  It was especially interesting seeing Oliver roll his eyes at Ray's dorkiness while he apparently finds Felicity's adorable.  Could Diggle have served as Ray's bodyguard?  Unlike Oliver, Ray could have actually used one.  Oliver could have even set it up as a way of keeping tabs on Ray and the company.  The fact that Oliver seems to give up on Queen Consolidated after 3x01 is honestly a bit sad.

I also wish they had developed Ray's philanthropy a bit further.  I'm left to assume that he mostly intended to help the city with his suit, but I wish that they had worked in a few more charity auctions or construction projects.  Seeing Ray actively giving to Star City would have endeared him to me, made me understand Felicity's softening feelings for him, and fleshed out Star City a bit more.

Ultimately I think they did a better job with Ray than they did with Susan, but it feels like damning with faint praise.  For heaven's sake, they intended to launch him as lead in a new spin-off at the start of the season.  He had a lot more screen time and almost exclusive (with Felicty) use of a large standing set to say nothing of the CGI and rope work for the suit.  Ray was a big investment for the series, but the writers wrote too hard to the "conflict" he caused and forgot to write to what makes him likeable.

I still don't like him that much on LoT, but he is much more tolerable.  I truly appreciate his enthusiasm for most things, and I do think he generally has good intentions and fair dealings.  He simply fails as a romantic lead for me across all shows.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It's not about the money.  It's about what she wants to do about her life.  Felicity worked hard to get into MIT early and graduated with double masters degrees. That is what she wanted to do with her life, IT, tech, hacking. Even though she was in a job far below her talents, it was still doing what she wanted to do.  Oliver didn't give her a choice.

It's also unfair to those people who go to college to be EAs. It's a profession, not a fallback  Felicity would have got a lot of hate from other QC employees who wanted that job and been angry that someone unqualified got it over them.

This hits home to me because early in my working life, I applied to be a writer at an ad agency.  There were no current openings but they put me in a departmental secretary position, the understanding that the first creative position that came open would be mine.  It didn't again and again and I finally figured out it was because two of the other EAs wanted my position and they didn't want to pick between them. (It wasn't the best run agency.)  A year and a half later I'd had enough and returned to school.  No matter how much money it was, it wasn't what I wanted to do with my life.

IIRC Ray didn't tell her about the ATOM suit until months after she had been working for him.  I believe him when he said that went looking for her because he had heard things about how good she was at tech. She assumed he wanted her as his EA; he wanted her for her IT abilities. By then she'd reconciled with Ray taking over QC.   He made her a VP, he took her to dinner with the guy he wanted to buy the ore from as his date and found out she was good at that kind of corporate work too.  It wasn't until around ep 15 (?) that he told her about the suit and got her help with it.

I think Oliver has always appreciated Felicity and her abilities regarding their night job, but for the first seasons that was about it. Until season 3 he didn't care much for the company and didn't think Felicity (or Diggle) could have professional aspirations beyond doing whatever job made it easier for them to discuss their night job if needed.

Becoming a EA was a promotion in terms of perks maybe but Felicity didn't consider it as such since it took her away from the job she was qualified to do and also made people think she was sleeping with the boss.

I think Ray wanted her help with the suit for sure but also understood Felicity's talent and professional aspirations better because they were the same as his..he could relate to her about that and in the end gave her the opportunity of a lifetime..

Oliver appreciated Felicity as CEO when they were together but that came later..in the first seasons he was very focused on himself and his mission..

[LeighAn]

When did Felicity EVER worry about people thinking she slept her way into the job? That sounds like people applying plots they've read in fan fiction onto the show and attributing feelings and concerns on to Felicity that she never had simply to prove Ray a non entity in Felicitys life is better then Oliver an actual entity *shrug*

[Midnight Lullaby]

Felicity was really pissed when Oliver promoted her because she said she went to MIT and she didn't study to be a secretary. I also added that the promotion made people think she slept her way to the top, which we know from what Isabel said, and I don't think it's something any person would appreciate. Normal human reaction. Felicity is happier with Oliver because he is the man she loves, she never loved Ray. Saying promoting Felicity to his EA wasn't that great of Oliver doesn't change that.

OT: Why do you often add *shrug* at the end of your posts? I find it so condescending.

[LeighAn]

Felicity being angry at Oliver was more plot driven for comedic effect to create office banter scenes between Oliver and Felicity, then any long term story point. After that one episode Felicity showed no more outwardly objection to being Olivers EA nor did he value her less as a person or asset. 

 

Isabel mentioned everyone thinking Felicity got the job through sleeping her way into it but given that Isabel had been presented as the office bitch, Olivers rival and a villian I don't know how reliable her word or opinion was. Felicity herself was never aware or concerned by any implied rumours around her position. And again that was a plot point in one episode really meant to set up and drive the Oliver and Isabel hookup to lead into the Felicity catching them and Oliver realising he feels bad that Felicity sees him with other women confronting his feelings moment. 

 

I just dont don't think the writers ever meant it to be taken as all that deep.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Or Felicity had professional ambitions related to her degree..

Edited July 31, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[apinknightmare]

I don't want to project my own feelings on to Felicity, so all I can say about it is that she didn't ultimately seem too bothered by the move considering in the beginning of S3 when Oliver was trying to get QC back she still wanted to go back and work there (and I don't recall him having promised her a different position).

[ComicFan777]

I wouldn't dismiss her feelings about the promotion as banter.  Felicity was clearly upset by Oliver's decision to promote her to EA when she found out.  I think Felicity showed how unhappy she was about being an EA more than once - like when she refused to bring him coffee and broke the coffee maker when Blood came to QC.

Edited July 31, 2017 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

That happened in the same episode as her promotion to EA, which at the end, she got Oliver a cup of coffee, implying she had reluctantly made her peace with her new job. And after that episode, she never mentioned having a problem with it again.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think she decided to put the mission first, not that she realized in the span of an episode that being a EA was the job of her dreams..when she realized Ray's job offer was being VP and not his EA she was so happy..

Edited July 31, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[apinknightmare]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that she suddenly realized that she wanted to be an EA for the rest of her life. Just that there's evidence that she found some benefits to it that she was willing to accept with the bad until the next opportunity came along. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

There was arguing that going from IT to EA was a step up for Felicity and that she wasn't really mad about it, her reaction was to insert a funny moment in the episode. I disagree. That's about it..on that she decided to accept the situation I think we all agree, it's what happened on the show, she didn't leave.

[wonderwall]

I think people here are taking it much more seriously and are more offended than Felicity ever was :p 

Was it wrong for Oliver to not ask? Absolutely. But even if he did ask Felicity would've done it.

She made her choice. If she didn't like it, she's the kind of person who would do everything to get out of it. I mean, her speech to Oliver in 2x21 shows exactly that. If Felicity wasn't happy or thought it was unnecessary she wouldn't have accepted that. She would've fought it like how she fought her way out of becoming a cocktail waitress in Vegas. 

[bijoux]

With the talk of Oliver, Felicity and coffee (among other things), it's pretty funny that I just came across this - And a Cup of Coffee, Too - 8 Times Romance Came with a Dash of Java

Quote

#2 The Flash, Episode 1×08, “Flash v. Arrow”

Arrow’s Oliver and Felicity bring their romantic tension wherever they go, so it was no surprise to find it simmering in Central City. While Felicity may refuse to bring Oliver coffee in the office (seriously, who can blame her?), that doesn’t mean she won’t enjoy a cup of java with him. Who could resist staring at Oliver’s baby blues over the rim of a steaming latte? Not me, no, not me at all. Apparently, Oliver can’t resist Felicity’s baby blues either because this exchange was hot. Hot. HOT. There were two conversations going on here; one out loud and the other with their eyes.  With these two in close proximity, it’s safe to say their coffee was never in danger of getting cold.

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

That happened in the same episode as her promotion to EA, which at the end, she got Oliver a cup of coffee, implying she had reluctantly made her peace with her new job. And after that episode, she never mentioned having a problem with it again.

It wasn't a promotion though, that was my point.  A higher level job doing something you don't want to do, isn't what you trained and doesn't engage your mind in the way you want, isn't a promotion.  Felicity made her peace with the job at the end of the day because she wanted to support Oliver as the Arrow but it wasn't what she wanted for her life.

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think she decided to put the mission first, not that she realized in the span of an episode that being a EA was the job of her dreams..when she realized Ray's job offer was being VP and not his EA she was so happy..

Felicity's happiness at realizing that Ray wanted her to actually do the job she trained for instead of the one she was stuck with was spoke volumes about how much she'd been settling, and possibly had been ground down.

Buying Tech Village to get her to work for him was skeezy of Ray, although she could and did quit that job, but it also showed how much he appreciated her IT abilities as a factor in and of itself, as opposed to Oliver who appreciated them as a tool to use to get his job done.

My head canon is that what happened with Cooper is what caused Felicity to want to hide away in a job that was too low level for her skills or former ambitions.  Oliver pulled her out of it by asking for her help with his crusade but Ray was the one who kicked her into the place she should have been

It's a small plot point and we've given it more thought than the writers did.  The show has long moved on but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited July 31, 2017 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Buying Tech Village to get her to work for him was skeezy of Ray, although she could and did quit that job, but it also showed how much he appreciated her IT abilities as a factor in and of itself, as opposed to Oliver who appreciated them as a tool to use to get his job done.

Was Ray not using Felicity's IT abilities as a tool to use to get his suit built? 

[wonderwall]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It wasn't a promotion though, that was my point.  A higher level job doing something you don't want to do, isn't what you trained and doesn't engage your mind in the way you want, isn't a promotion.  Felicity made her peace with the job at the end of the day because she wanted to support Oliver as the Arrow but it wasn't what she wanted for her life.

It may not have been what Felicity envisioned or wanted - but regardless of how you put it, it IS a promotion because it's a higher position, higher salary, more responsibilities. So it doesn't matter what you say or want, it's a promotion because Oliver raising Felicity to a higher rank is the definition of a promotion.

Edited July 31, 2017 by wonderwall

[ComicFan777]

Is EA a promotion in terms of salary though?  I don't know the specific job title but quick google search for average salaries in the US for:
EA to CEO $59,000
IT specialist $69,000
I think Felicity has multiple degrees and worked at QC in IT for awhile, so her salary might be higher than the average.

Edited July 31, 2017 by ComicFan777

[wonderwall]

29 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Is EA a promotion in terms of salary though?  I don't know the specific job title but quick google search for average salaries in the US for:
EA to CEO $59,000
IT specialist $69,000

Well you have to consider the kind of company she worked for as well as the city. It does no good to look at the national average in this case because it also takes into account smaller companies as well as smaller towns/cities/etc. where the standard of living may not be as high as one in a city.

Based on what we have seen her do she could've been a Senior EA to the CEO working at a large company like QC which could earn between 72-128k in a large city like NYC. 

Whereas an IT Specialist in NYC would be earning 47k-111k

-- this is just looking at glassdoor though.

Edited July 31, 2017 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

Since we're basically speculating here, I imagine Felicity's new job came with a raise. One, because it was Oliver placing her in that position to make his own life easier and for all his faults, I never got the impression he is or ever has been a cheapskate. Two, Felicity got a significant wardrobe overhaul afterwards. I don't think it was a promotion in her eyes when she got it and it was certainly unwanted. But in the end she decided to stick with it, and I believe that position gave her experience that was helpful to her as VP afterwards that she couldn't have got had she stayed on as an IT specialist and did not get promoted to some sort of managing position. Basically, my point is it was unwanted and Oliver had no business springing it on her, but in the end, Felicity ploughed on and the experience was a helpful learning block in her further career.

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly this whole discussion is pointless since their are too many variables. It's a fictional company in a fictional city and, the writers never cared to give details on anything about Felicity's job before or since.

The Arrow tie-in novels (which are suposed to be canon, until the show changes the canon) said she was a manager in the IT world. She was high enough on the food chain that the CEO knew her by name/reputation. I could see her being a Mid-Level Manager or the Technical Equivalent. In my company we have 2 possible career paths, management and technical, the positions/levels are equal pay and bonus wise just different in nature. 

I will say this I absolutely loathed making Felicity an EA. I have no doubt the writers thought it would be funny. I remember a ton of Olicity fans thinking it was awesome. They expected flirty office high jinks/banter and I remember seeing Tony/Pepper comparisons being tossed around, especially by SmoakandArrow.

As much as I hated, hated (and still hate) the whole thing I will say this. Oliver didn't want to come back, he was happy to sulk on Angst Island. He didn't want to come back and be CEO, he didn't want to come back and be the Hood. Felicity and Diggle convinced him to come back and save QC. Felicity/Diggle also encouraged Oliver to put the hood back on, Felicity also redid the lair on her own (or with Diggle). 

So as much as I HATE the EA storyline and how Oliver forced her into a role she didn't want simply because it made his life easier. One could say that Felicty/Diggle did the same to Oliver by bringing him back from Angst Island to be CEO and Arrow, even though he really didn't want either.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[LeighAn]

EA for the type of company and position Felicity was working for are basically required to be Junior CEOs they need to know everything the CEO does. I was reading an article in the Finacial Review and they said most EAs start off on $70-80,000 and can earn up to $150,000 based on skill sets and how valued they are by their employer. So outwardly it would have been a promotion for Felicity based on salary, perks and responsibilities, even if it wasn't providing her as much of an outlet with her computer skills. But then again she got that from her work within Team Arrow.

[LeighAn]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Was Ray not using Felicity's IT abilities as a tool to use to get his suit built? 

Isn't the first job he gave her something to hack that would give him required plans of weapons  that he was going to use on his suit- all without telling her that was what she was doing? 

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Isn't the first job he gave her something to hack that would give him required plans of weapons  that he was going to use on his suit- all without telling her that was what she was doing? 

I don't remember the specifics, but I'm pretty sure he had her doing a lot of stuff for the suit without telling her that's what the endgame was. Like her convincing that guy to give him his dwarf star whatever he needed to shrink.

[statsgirl]

While some of what Ray gave Felicity to do was related to the ATOM suit, many of the initial projects probably were general PT projects (i.e. what Felicity trained for). It was only after Oliver came back from the dead and joined up with Merlyn that Felicity worked on the suit hardcore.

A promotion involves advancement in terms of "salary, job title and a change in the type of job activities".  A demotion involves a "change in rank and job responsibilities." Felicity possibly got more money and benefits since that would have been whatever HR had worked out for the position of the CEO's EA but Felicity herself felt that it was a demotion in terms of job activities and responsibilities.

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

So as much as I HATE the EA storyline and how Oliver forced her into a role she didn't want simply because it made his life easier. One could say that Felicty/Diggle did the same to Oliver by bringing him back from Angst Island to be CEO and Arrow, even though he really didn't want either.

So because Diggle and Felicity pushed Oliver to come back and take the CEO position to save his family's company, it's only fair that Felicity has to take on a position she doesn't want in exchange?  I guess it makes a sort of sense.  Oliver wanted to save QC for his mother and sister and his family's legacy and Felicity in turn helped because of her feelings for Oliver.

Edited August 1, 2017 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

27 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity herself felt that it was a demotion in terms of job activities and responsibilities.

Felicity initially felt it was a demotion when in reality it helped her when Ray hired her at PT. I doubt she's still bitter about the demotion that was clearly a stepping stone to her path to becoming CEO. She likely learned a lot from being Oliver's EA considering she had to help him do his job (the job she and Diggle helped push him to do). 

I'd say Felicity is likely grateful for that experience because otherwise we likely would've seen her fumble harder when she became VP. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by wonderwall

[LeighAn]

The thing is the only jobs we saw Ray give Felicity had to do with his suit so you can't speculate with any certainty that she was given other jobs because they never showed that. All they showed was Ray using Felicity for his Atom project, half the time without her knowing that's what she was doing. I mean he even basically stole facial recognition software she developed for his suit without her knowledge. 

[Featherhat]

Ray gave her the job her did (without telling her and expecting her to be impressed he spent $1 Billion to get her after she repeatedly said NO to his offers) because he needed her brain to get at the ATOM/DS tech and wasn't quick to let her in on his secret until she pushed. In terms of her agency to choose her career that's just as bad as Oliver insisting she be his EA even though it was a better job more suited to her. He didn't know she was a vigilante hacker by night and got very upset when he found out, which is a bit hypocritical. Oliver already knew she was a vigilante hacker by night and if he needed that kind of info or tech all he had to do was ask her in the lair. He felt he needed her as his EA in the same office to facilitate that night job. Two billionaire vigilante/wannabe vigilantes coming at the same issue from different angles, neither necessarily putting Felicity's feelings/agency first about this particular issue, so I can't give Ray bonus points for that, just because his needs were met with her day job only (until he wanted to date her). Both times she eventually accepted it and grew into the job.

Diggle was also sardonic about his job but unlike Felicity it's what he was doing before Oliver became CEO and wouldn't raise any eyebrows as opposed to the "blonde in the short skirts". In terms of how it looks to the outside world. Yeah they're probably going to think Felicity got the VP job due to her "other skills". She went from "just an IT girl" paraphrasing her words, to VP then CEO of a Fortune 500 company in 3 years. With both young good looking billionaire CEOs taking a special interest in "working closely" with her, which would only get worse when she publically started dating Ray and he signed his company over to her after his "death". That's definitely not fair and I'm glad they didn't really focus on that apart from Isabel's comments. We didn't actually see much of either of them in the office together except for Isabel hijinks in the end really, it didn't affect the season much unlike Felicity as VP/CEO at PT so much as I very much dislike how it happened and that Oliver didn't even apologise because it was all about the mission, I can't see it as a huge deal.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah, I guess bringing Oliver back to SC with the (hidden) purpose of being the Arrow again set all those events in motion so the jobs he gave to Felicity and Diggle were a consequence of their own actions..

We can't know what would have happened if Oliver didn't mess with Felicity's day job..she was a brilliant young girl that the previous CEO already knew by name and singled out for important tasks..by the time Ray took over the company she could have progressed her career and be noticed anyway..also because what he noticed was her degree from MIT, he didn't care about her experience as a EA..the only thing we know for sure is that Felicity was pissed about the job change and considered it a demotion because she studied at MIT, not to become a secretary.

[Mellowyellow]

@johntfs do you ship?

How did you feel about Raylicity?

[johntfs]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

@johntfs do you ship?

How did you feel about Raylicity?

I didn't dislike it, exactly, though I really didn't like the initially stalker/controlling way he hired Felicity.  I appreciate that he wanted her in a position more suited to her abilities, even if he had a hidden, if basically noble, agenda.  I think the writers made a few missteps with Ray by trying to write him as a true romantic/professional rival to Oliver.  For my part I never expected Ray and Felicity to last.  For one thing, I was slightly spoiled because I'd seen a couple of Season Four episodes (I got Arrow Season One for Christmas, burned through that and then grabbed Season Two and Three along with Season One of The Flash) and knew that Felicity was engaged to Oliver.  I also felt that Ray was "courting" Felicity a lot more intensely than she was returning his affection.  I think Ray saw her as a likely replacement for his dead fiance' and Felicity was pretty much "If you're not with the one you love, love the one you're with."

[Mellowyellow]

@johntfs thanks for answering! 

I knew they weren't going to last but I had seen an episode or two of Legends and LOVED Ray so I was MEGA excited that he was the temp LI for season 3. The S3 love triangle was like Christmas for me. I only wished they had resolved it a bit more gently on Ray somehow because I adored the boy but alas. My Raylicity heart rears it's head sometimes =P