Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Orion]

One of the reason they needed Laurel/Oliver to work from the start was that she was suppose to be one of the key elements in the hero's journey. The romantic pairing is one of the reason the hero moves forward, it  needs to supports its story weight. I always get a good laugh out of people who claim they don't want romance in their hero stories, it has been and always will be, one of the main elements in those stories. 

 

Oliver returned home a broken/different man than he left. His one constant was his love for Laurel Lance. Oliver had miles to go in rebuilding his life and righting his father's wrongs but at the end of the long journey, Laurel was suppose to be his reward. He's been lonely, hurt, and broken but when he climbs his way out of the abyss she will be there waiting for him. It is a keystone of the journey; the heart of the woman he loves.  This is a great list that you can apply to every hero story ever told from Homer's Iliad. to Star Wars, to Indiana Jones, to Thor,... to Arrow.  http://home.rmi.net/~seifert/id22.html

 

 

 

The protagonist meets an ideal (in ancient myths a goddess; in modern stories a soul mate) and sees the possibilities of his/her journey. This supernatural, human, or symbolic ideal encourages him/her forward.

 

The problem Arrow ran into with the Oliver/Laurel chemistry was that it couldn't support the weight of the hero's journey and the role it needed to play in it, let alone the weight that the writers added to it with all the toxic back story. Star crossed lovers is a tough thing to act towards because the love they feel for each other has to be buried enough that audience understands that the love is there but can't be acted on. You have to believe that underneath everything (destiny, mistakes, feelings) these two characters love each other beyond reason. Amell and Cassidy for whatever reason couldn't sell that, at all. They barely looked like two people who had bumped into each other in crowd, let alone, a love for all ages. I was reading TWOP through way back machine (because I wasn't involved in the fandom at that and point and was curious as to what people's opinions were at the beginning) the majority of people started out excited for KC and not sold on Amell (he was the less known of the two and quite a lot of people wanted Justin, Oliver from Smallville to play this OQ). The anti-chemistry comments started after the second episode. That these two were just not selling it together. Viewers want to feel warm fuzzies when watching a couple find/re-find love, they don't want to feel like they walked into between mom and dad fighting.  Cries to get them as far away from each other as possible started after the kiss. It wasn't just a matter of not sparking but being painful and uncomfortable to watch together. She didn't bring out the best in him, inspire him to be more, lighten him up or any other positives that people look for in a love interest (it's unfair to point just to KC/LL but the story is about Oliver Queen so she is there to further his plot, therefore the complaints fell to her rightly or wrongly)  If the viewers can't see the love beneath the surface,  the entire journey dies. Oliver can't become the hero he needs to be because one of the essential elements is missing; a romantic love.  And no one wants to watch two actors who look like they are doing their taxes in their mind rather than expressing a deep need to be together; their souls calling out to each other.

 

That's not to say that all the mistakes were with the chemistry the two have, Laurel was so involved with being angry at Oliver, she couldn't help guide him to where he needed to go. When she was shown his scars, she wasn't interested in learning how he got them, IIRC her line was I don't need to know (the writers were trying for she accepts him with the scars but how he got those scars is how he became the man he is today. Yes, Laurel you need to know). Oliver came to her in 1X15 wanting to open up and talk and she turned her back and walked away. When Oliver and Laurel share a moment of truth in the Queen mansion entrance way in the finale (1X23) he says that he hasn't changed, that the island stripped away all the things he wasn't and revealed who he always was; the person she saw.  Those were hero beats that were so obviously not true as to be painful. And those mistakes fall at the writers feet.

 

Compare those to Felicity and Oliver who sparked when they were on screen together (subjective I know, but since the media and critics also point to the first meet of those two characters as a show changing moment, I'm going to assume most felt that way).  Oliver smiled. Not for the first time but for the first time it felt natural; not an expression he was choosing. A natural, I can't stop this from happening smile. Felicity is the first to suggest he find another way. Felicity is the person who apologizes for making him break his "no kill" vow. She's given the speech in 2X22 where Oliver admits he's a different person that he was five years ago (something the audience knew was true from the beginning so it rang true when he said it).  She's also the person, when everyone else says kill, she says, no. There is no anger from the weight of a poorly thought out backstory. There is acceptance.  That is romance that can withstand the weight of hero's journey. It serves the purpose of the plot, "Be better, dear hero, so you earn my love."

 

People who theorize that Arrow, the show, might not be heading into it's third season if the writers didn't decide to replace Laurel/Oliver with Felicity/Oliver might not be that far off. If the house the writers are building has a toxic, chemistry-less, painful to watch relationship at it's foundation, the journey for the hero is bound to fail and collapse taking with it every other element (no matter how well it's done).  The writers options were limited, replace the actress (since they would never replace the hero), recon the story (they had gone to far to turn back then), or find someone else to be the love interest.  They chose the easiest route. The way to fix the chemistry problem and the way to fix the backstory problem. Leave everything in place with that couple but start building the hero with the more favorable love interest. An awkward friendship with an ex is not going to derail Oliver becoming the Green Arrow, but a love story with no heart could.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Orion

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the link, it's a interesting chart.

[wingster55]

Oliver smiled. Not for the first time but for the first time it felt natural; not an expression he was choosing. A natural, I can't stop this from happening smile. 

 

Which, as Amell has said, was exactly what it was. A natural, unscripted smile from Stephen. 

I do wonder what would have had happened if he hadn't broke. 

[poetgirl925]

Honestly? We probably wouldn't have seen EBR again if they hadn't sparked in that scene. Haven't they all said she was only supposed to be in one episode? But then Amell told producers she should come back, they agreed based on the dailies, the network apparently also loved her, and she went from recurring character to regular. I think it was MG who said the network president called at some point to make sure they were going to see more of the IT girl, and MG told him they were way ahead of him. Chemistry apparently made a huge difference there. I know it got my attention - I wasn't shipping them right away, but she was a standout in that episode for me. But I also think that if the Laurel/Oliver story had been working back in S1 that Olicity wouldn't have taken off the way it did. There might still have been shippers, but it probably wouldn't be so one-sided. Even a lot of Laurel fans hate the L/O pairing. So the fact that a one-off character was able to take off like that and take the romantic lead implies there was a void there already.

[dtissagirl]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

My actual OH SHIT I WANT THIS was the "I feel like I can trust you, why is that?" "I have one of those faces." *Felicity frown* "Sorry. Yes, you can trust me." scene in Vertigo. And then I got mad at myself for getting emotionally attached to a pairing I didn't think was ever gonna happen. *g*

And then "because the life that I lead" changed my mind, and convinced me it WAS gonna happen, and it was only a matter of time.

How about you guys?

[foreverevolving]

Which, as Amell has said, was exactly what it was. A natural, unscripted smile from Stephen. 

I do wonder what would have had happened if he hadn't broke. 

Would that even be possible?

in all honesty, from the second that scene started. Although to be honest, i feel like their EBR and SA pre shooting bonding may have helped. there truly was something different in Amell's behavior, an "aura" of sorts, even before he opens his mouth, there was just something lighter that was radiating off of him.

in terms of Oliver, perhaps it was that she wasn't anyone he met before or would ever meet again, everyone he interacted before was a character with whom he had some sort of baggage.

(ETA: because it was so awkwardly written it needed to be edited, can't believe it took several hours to realize it).

 

oh man. i actually remember i wrote a post about me officially jumping on the Olicity train at some point near the end of season 1; and a quick search of my Facebook timeline shows it happened on March 28th 2013. :-) Salvation aired the night before, so i was probably catching up on that. i think it was the scene at the end. the one where Oliver tells Felicity that if she ever needs to tell someone about her day she can talk to him. but the truth is i was already intrigued by their interaction, i was just holding back because i knew ArrowxBlackCanary, i didn't want to get invested in a ship i knew wouldn't happen. but.. yea they sucked me in. I literally wrote "screw black canary" at the end of the post, apparently i already really disliked Laurel back then.

Edited August 12, 2014 by foreverevolving

[poetgirl925]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

My actual OH SHIT I WANT THIS was the "I feel like I can trust you, why is that?" "I have one of those faces." *Felicity frown* "Sorry. Yes, you can trust me." scene in Vertigo. And then I got mad at myself for getting emotionally attached to a pairing I didn't think was ever gonna happen. *g*

And then "because the life that I lead" changed my mind, and convinced me it WAS gonna happen, and it was only a matter of time.

How about you guys?

The "Can I trust you?" scene was definitely a moment for me, so for me it probably started building from there. In one of EBR's interviews she said they shot that scene several times and the final product was a lot more intimate than it had started out being, which I think is interesting. I know I was actively resisting shipping on Arrow up until the latter part of S1, though. I don't like getting too attached to pairings on shows, especially if I think it won't happen, but the buildup between Oliver and Felicity just sucked me in against my will. Then in S2 the tone of their scenes became so much more personal that by the time the Russia episode rolled around, I was pretty sure the show was acknowledging they were a thing.

[NumberCruncher]

For me it was a very gradual process.  I always found their S1 interactions immensely enjoyable--especially when Felicity would blurt out her unintentional innuendos--but I didn't think that was the direction the writers/producers were going to go given the whole comic book canon thing so I didn't give a serious relationship that much thought.  When S2 rolled around I definitely noticed things were progressing but it wasn't until episode 6 that it hit me just how much I was shipping them.  It took me off guard because I wasn't actively looking for Oliver to have a relationship with anyone, TBH.  I think it was also the "because of the life that I lead" moment when I realized what the two of them meant to one another (i.e. it went beyond just physical lusting on her part and her being just a good friend on his part).  That being said, I never thought the show would really go there--especially due to the EPs' comments re: Oliver/Laurel/canon and the on-screen Oliver/Sara hook-up. 

[Password]

Ironically the first time I saw Felicity Smoak I thought she would be a barrier between Oliver and Laurel. Before I knew better.

I absolutely loved her the moment I saw her, which was episode 4 and 5 with Walter. She was fun and intriguing. The first time I thought Oliver and Felicity should get together was after that disastrous double date between Oliver/Helena and Tommy/Laurel. I remember just completely giving up on Laurel and Oliver and going "Oliver just go out with Felicity. She's awesome."

But I never thought they could have a serious end game type relationship because for reasons unknown Oliver was hung up on Laurel and vice versa. I always thought if they do happen it'll be a way for Oliver to become better at relationships before ending up with Laurel. Then Oliver got back together with Sara and it was the nail in the coffin for me on Lauriver but I thought the writers would still want them endgame.

Since then I just grew progressively more annoyed because Olicity kept hitting romantic beats, and I knew they couldn't be endgame. Hopefully, things can change.

[icandigit]

 

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

I'm not sure. I only started watching the show this spring. So binge watching and then live watching has my brain all twisted. I know the scene in S1 when Oliver goes to find Felicity after the Huntress tied her up probably started me thinking about it. I think the Russia episode added a little more. But, I know the 3 ghosts episode is where pretty much lost my sanity and started shipping at levels I didn't know were possible. Even with Barry right there, it felt like they were at home with each other.

[Angel12d]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

My actual OH SHIT I WANT THIS was the "I feel like I can trust you, why is that?" "I have one of those faces." *Felicity frown* "Sorry. Yes, you can trust me." scene in Vertigo. And then I got mad at myself for getting emotionally attached to a pairing I didn't think was ever gonna happen. *g*

And then "because the life that I lead" changed my mind, and convinced me it WAS gonna happen, and it was only a matter of time.

How about you guys?

 

The first scene you describe when Felicity asks if she can trust Oliver was when I thought 'OH NO, I'm liking these two.' There was something quite atmospheric about that whole scene, maybe it was the rain and the lighting and the way they were with each other but I saw something in Oliver there that I liked and I hadn't really felt that way up until that point. 

 

I wouldn't say I shipped them full-on from that moment because I honestly assumed that the show would continue on the toxic path towards L/O as endgame, but Olicity were never far from my mind. Every moment between them just made me love them more. I think I officially started shipping them in 201 when Oliver hurriedly swept Felicity's hair away from her face after they had just crashed through the window and it was the way he exhaled in relief that she was ok that really got to me. My shipping grew when he gave Felicity the 'because of the life I lead' speech (and maybe slightly before that when Oliver seemed upset that she found out he had slept with Isabel) in 206 and then I was 100% done for when he killed the Count in 207. I was blown away by the implications of that scene alone. So powerful, even more so now when you realize that it was his one and only kill of the whole season. 

 

So yeah. It was a combination of all scenes really but I liked them pretty much from the start. Their growing love story has been such a treat. I'm so excited to see them develop further, hopefully! 

[BkWurm1]

When Oliver and Laurel share a moment of truth in the Queen mansion entrance way in the finale (1X23) he says that he hasn't changed, that the island stripped away all the things he wasn't and revealed who he always was; the person she saw.  Those were hero beats that were so obviously not true as to be painful. And those mistakes fall at the writers feet.

 

I read an essay about this scene compared with when Laurel finds Tommy at CNRI.  Maybe someone else remembers where to find it but it pointed out that while the Laurel/Oliver moment had all the beats of a heroic moment, yeah, it fell short.  They kiss but there's not epic confessions of love and even the things they say to each other don't ring true.  Cut to the Tommy scene where he is there to save her despite the break up, despite what he saw with Oliver.  He loves her and Laurel realizes who the real hero is and instead of Oliver getting the big confession of love, it's left to Tommy and when he says it, we believe him.    It made me wonder if the writers where trying for that or just fell into it?  It feels deliberate since it serves for me as the final end in any possible Oliver / Laurel reconciliation but who knows. 

 

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

 

In a way I started with their first episode in as much as I'd had a number of Arrow episodes backed up on my DVR cause the first couple were that painful.  I came to THE scene and immediately after hit pause and ran to the internet to see if she would ever be in the show again.  At that time she'd already been picked up for the rest of the season so very pleased, I continued watching when I probably was ready to stop.

 

Of course as a Smallville survivor I wouldn't let myself really believe it would happen.  I called myself all kinds of names for tormenting myself but then season two came around and over and over I kept getting the message that this could happen.  It wasn't until the winter hiatus after the Barry episodes that I caved and went to the forums and embraces my inner shipper.  There were some rocky moments in the back half of the season but I'm glad I stuck with it. 

 

I'm still waiting for the other show to drop - but I'm mostly taking a break off from worrying this season. 

then I was 100% done for when he killed the Count in 207. I was blown away by the implications of that scene alone. So powerful, even more so now when you realize that it was his one and only kill of the whole season.

 

So much this scene and the follow up "There was no choice" scene.  I was ready to watch the show til the end at that moment just to fuel what I assumed was going to be some massive fan fiction show fix I was going to have to do to make it all better.  Lol. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by BkWurm1

[KenyaJ]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

 

 

The first time my eyebrow rose and I thought, "Hmmm..." was in Year's End.

 

"Felicity ... you're remarkable."

"Thank you for remarking on it."

 

Loved that scene. But I knew I shipped it for sure in "Vertigo." When Oliver shows up at QC with the syringe and Felicity agrees that she's noticed he's very particular about what he puts in his body, Amell (and I actually think this was more Amell than Oliver) gets ready to say his line, but pauses to laugh. That was the moment I was sold. Felicity made Oliver fun and funny and every time they were in a scene together, it was like a glimpse of who and what Oliver could be one day.

 

The weird thing is, as much as I ship them, I've loved the slow progression of their relationship. They're friends and partners in a way that's not typical of most of the couples I've shipped. I'm really excited that the show isn't going to dance around their feelings this season, but I probably could've been patient for a while longer, because I love their relationship period, even when it's "platonic."

Edited August 12, 2014 by KenyaJ

[BkWurm1]

The weird thing is, as much as I ship them, I've loved the slow progression of their relationship. They're friends and partners in a way that's not typical of most of the couples I've shipped. I'm really excited that the show isn't going to dance around their feelings this season, but I probably could've been patient for a while longer, because I love their relationship period, even when it's "platonic."

 

Here, here!

 

My biggest concerns for the future is that they might separate them from their day to day interaction.  I don't need ravaging love scenes (though if it's on the table...) I just need them to keep being who they are with each other. 

[NumberCruncher]

Loved that scene. But I knew I shipped it for sure in "Vertigo." When Oliver shows up at QC with the syringe and Felicity agrees that she's noticed he's very particular about what he puts in his body, Amell (and I actually think this was more Amell than Oliver) gets ready to say his line, but pauses to laugh. That was the moment I was sold. Felicity made Oliver fun and funny and every time they were in a scene together, it was like a glimpse of who and what Oliver could be one day.

I'm so glad you brought up that particular scene because that moment always been one of my absolute favorite Oliver/Felicity moments. The natural reaction Stephen always has to Emily (i.e. those "breaks in character") really pops the scene. She clearly makes him laugh and I've said it before but that lightness has helped get me though the dark overtones of the show since I've never been a huge fan of the brooding characters of the DC universe of manpain. The fact that Felicity (and Emily) can make Oliver Queen seem a little lighter and happier is a huge plus for me.

Edited August 12, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[KenyaJ]

Here, here!

 

My biggest concerns for the future is that they might separate them from their day to day interaction.  I don't need ravaging love scenes (though if it's on the table...) I just need them to keep being who they are with each other. 

 

This, so much. I just want their normal interactions. Knowing how they really feel about each other will just add another layer to their already beautifully layered relationship.

 

I'm so glad you brought up that particular scene because that moment always been one of my absolute favorite Oliver/Felicity moments. The natural reaction Stephen always has to Emily (i.e. those "breaks in character") really pops the scene. She clearly makes him laugh and I've said it before but that lightness has helped get me though the dark overtones of the show since I've never been a huge fan of the brooding characters of the DC universe of mainpain. The fact that Felicity (and Emily) can make Oliver Queen seem a little lighter and happier is a huge plus for me.

 

I love all of those moments when you can see Stephen reacting to Emily! Another of my favorites is in "Home Invasion" when Felicity is fretting about being sent to Guantanamo after hacking into a federal database. Oliver assures her they don't send blonds to Guantanamo, and she admits she dyes her hair, then reminds him "I keep your secrets." "Oliver" breaks into a tiny smile and then leans over to examine the top of Felicity's head. The first time I watched it, I thought he was leaning over to look at her monitor, but his eyes aren't focused on the monitor at all. It makes me laugh every time I see it. 

[TanyaKay]

I read an essay about this scene compared with when Laurel finds Tommy at CNRI.  Maybe someone else remembers where to find it but it pointed out that while the Laurel/Oliver moment had all the beats of a heroic moment, yeah, it fell short.  They kiss but there's not epic confessions of love and even the things they say to each other don't ring true.  Cut to the Tommy scene where he is there to save her despite the break up, despite what he saw with Oliver.  He loves her and Laurel realizes who the real hero is and instead of Oliver getting the big confession of love, it's left to Tommy and when he says it, we believe him.    It made me wonder if the writers where trying for that or just fell into it?  It feels deliberate since it serves for me as the final end in any possible Oliver / Laurel reconciliation but who knows. 

 

Honestly, in most Oliver/Tommy interactions, Tommy always came out on top - as a better friend/person.

 

It was evident from the first episode when they were cruising the city and Oliver wanted to go see Laurel. Tommy tried to protect him and asked why he wanted to go and see the one person who would not be happy that he is alive. In episode 3, he was willing to get beaten up by Max Fuller's bouncers for Oliver. He looked after his sister when Oliver was away and even when he was back and busy in his vigilante activities. He asked his friend's permission before actually dating Laurel and would never have pursued her if Oliver showed discomfort. Oliver, on the other hand was the douchebag who told him to go after the girl and then bonked her in front of the window without drawing the curtains. But the biggest douche move by Oliver was in episode 19 of season one. Even after the revelation of him being the vigilante and murderer, Tommy was willing to work on their friendship and was working at the club. The scene at the beginning where they were laughing about finding bras and panties in the lost and found box was funny and then he saved Oliver's ass with the whole police search thing as well. What did Oliver do? He actually asked him if he was involved in the sales of Vertigo at the club. Even if he was suspicious, that was not the time.

 

I think one of the reasons why Tommy was killed in season 1 was that his character was turning out to be a lot more likeable than the hero. We saw something similar in the latter part of season 2 when Diggle's role was decreased because he too was getting a lot of positive feedback. You want other characters to be liked but you want the hero to be liked most.

[Orion]

I've never shipped a couple before. I'm much more a passive viewer. If I like a couple or a story I'm in and if I don't I'm out . I like to watch shows dissecting the writing and the character moments, very rarely I think, "oh they would make a cute couple." But I've never felt motivated to go to a forum or twitter or facebook to talk about a couple. Normally my husband listens well enough that I can bend his ear to get thoughts about a TV or movie out.

 

I owe Vertigo and Jennifer Crusie for all my Olicity love. The first episode I tuned back in for was Vertigo with the syringe lie. His reaction to her and her reaction to what she said made me laugh out and loud and kept me watching.  My husband kept assuring me that Laurel and Oliver were the "it" couple because of comics, no matter how many times I would point to a scene and say, "but LOOK!"  The "can I trust you scene" was a big moment but I wrote it off that maybe the writers would let them be a "fling" but then I would talk myself down and try to just appreciate Felicity alone as a character. When State vs Queen aired I gave up trying to stop myself from hoping. The way he looked when he heard the Count over the phone, the way he cradled her face and gripped her hand, I was all in. But I shipped them silently  still trying to hold on to my expectations. And trying to prepare myself for the show doing something dumb like killing her off.  After Blast Radius where jealous Oliver yelled at Felicity and her response was "sure right after you get your head out of your ass." I opened my laptop and went online. Determined to find out if I was the only one seeing this. That's when I read Jennifer Crusie's, an author that I love, reviews of the first meet and the problem with Laurel; I think I literally did a happy dance that their were other people like me out there. I've been happily and not so happily (2b) shipping them ever since.

 

@BkWurm1 I would love to read others analysis of that scene if you or anyone else finds it again.  Thanks for mentioning it so I can keep my eyes open for it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Orion

[TanyaKay]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

How about you guys?

 

Oh I took notice of Felicity in the first scene (probably because I had bought a similar pink shirt back then which my friend thought was little too pink for work and I remember texting her that this cute girl is wearing the same shirt) but I actually thought she was a viable romantic option in The Huntress Returns. First Helena Bartenelli referred to her as one of Oliver's girlfriends (the show never went there before) then Oliver who still wanted to help Helena after she twisted Tommy's wrist and threatened his mom and sister in a very subtle way by going to see them. But the minute she went after Felicity, he changed his tune and was so much in the fighter mode that he almost attacked Diggle who followed him to QC to save Felicity.

Then "Salvation" happened. Felicity talked about not seeing someone with whom she can talk about her day and how it is better that she is all by herself, what does Oliver do? He goes and presents himself as an option to talk about days like that. I mean I loved Emily from the moment she appeared on my screen but I was holding myself back. Episode 1x18 gave me hope that they may happen sometime but what totally sold me is the episode 2x02 where Felicity (despite being demoted as the EA) gave him her piece of mind - repeatedly - and he took it all and in the end, when she brought him coffee and he looked at her longingly for 4 seconds longer that necessary (Stephen Amell's words, not mine) that sold it for me.

Edited August 12, 2014 by TanyaKay

[catrox14]

I can't say I ever fully shipped them until State Vs Queen,  but every time Felicity called Oliver on his ridiculous lies and that he didn't get angry with her for calling him out, I thought....Hmmm these two have a spark.  

Edited August 12, 2014 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

Great comment, Orion.

Which, as Amell has said, was exactly what it was. A natural, unscripted smile from Stephen. 

I do wonder what would have had happened if he hadn't broke. 

I assume Felicity Smoak would have been the counter to the nameless hacker guy who worked for the poilce department. We saw him in four or so episodes  (he's the one going over the stairwell tape with Lance) and then one of Slade's army killed him because he was expendable.

 

Stephen Amell said that one of the reasons they kept Felicity is that she brought out a side of Oliver that no other character did.  So even without the romantic chemistry, and just for the fun and lightness, they might have kept her.

 

Felicity was the reason I kept watching this show.  When I saw her first scenes in 1x3, I thought "Hey, this is interesting.  Maybe I should give this show another chance."  And then I'd watch the credits to see if her name came up.  If it did, I'd sit and watch. If it didn't, it was background.

 

One scene that I love that hasn't been mentioned yet is in The Dodger when she says locks the door on him and she made a mistake and quits. Oliver is leaning over her, menancingly, all 6 foot plus of solid build, physically intimidating her, and she still gets up and walks out because she needs to to do right thing.

[JenMD]

When Oliver shows up at QC with the syringe and Felicity agrees that she's noticed he's very particular about what he puts in his body, Amell (and I actually think this was more Amell than Oliver) gets ready to say his line, but pauses to laugh. That was the moment I was sold. Felicity made Oliver fun and funny and every time they were in a scene together, it was like a glimpse of who and what Oliver could be one day.

I adore that scene So. Much.  My sister and I just finished a rewatch of S1 and when we got to that scene my finger might have accidentally (or not) hit the rewind button.  Yeah, it's just that whole pause-laugh Oliver does and the look on his face, like he can't help it and the whole thing is capped by Diggle just walking away, like he just can't anymore.  I never saw that as SA reacting, though (as himself, as opposed to how Oliver would react (it's late, does that even make sense?).  It's always struck me as Oliver trying so hard to keep it together and just get through the conversation, but being defenseless against Felicity in his drugged state.  Oh, I sinceriously adore that scene.

[poetgirl925]

I loved that scene in The Dodger episode. Felicity had spunk even though he was intimidating, and she wasn't going to be pushed around. Then later the funny expression on his face when he saw her in the gold dress - she really did bring out a lighter side to Oliver that was badly needed. His angst dragged the show down at times, and then when Laurel was added to the scene, it was 100 times worse. As much as I love a good comic origin story, I'm not sure I'd have kept watching without Felicity. I did love Digg/Oliver time in S1, but Diggle wasn't there to lighten Oliver up (though he did help me like Oliver more.) Tommy sometimes had that effect on Oliver, but boy did that go south in the back half of the season. Felicity added something that was necessary IMO, even aside from her being a love interest. I can't imagine what we'd be watching by now if they hadn't signed EBR on. I'm also glad it was a happy accident because if they'd gone looking to cast a new love interest, we probably wouldn't have EBR. They might have gone with someone older with more experience.

[ohjoy]

.... I was 100% done for when he killed the Count in 207. I was blown away by the implications of that scene alone. So powerful, even more so now when you realize that it was his one and only kill of the whole season.

This is the scene that I was constantly drawn back to, even as I assured myself that (1) I was not really all that invested because I absolutely knew that (2) TPTB were just baiting those of us who we're not fans of Laurel until they decided to force Lauriver on the audience once again. Then, given the producers glowing recommendation of KC/Laurel in the back half of S2, I began preparing myself for the worst.

Then Oliver tried to leave Felicity at the Queen mansion. In the middle of half-gasping, half-screaming at my TV when the ILY slipped out, I suddenly became acutely aware that I was WAY more invested in Olicity than I'd been willing to admit. I was definitely in the camp of "I didn't know how bad I wanted it until one brief shining moment when I thought I had it" (which honestly was immediately followed by "Oh no! It's too soon!").

I was relieved it was a ruse, but now I am REALLY looking forward to the moment when it's not.

[wonderwall]

The first time I actually found myself rooting for Oliver/Felicity was the first episode of season 2. Felicity (who's afraid of heights) jumped off a plane for him, made him smile on the island (when she asked for a coconut), convinced Oliver to come back to Starling, pushed Oliver to not give up on being the vigilante yet still kept her space so he could figure things out on his own, upgraded the lair and had a custom made bow for Oliver, oh and did I mention Felicity totally saved Oliver's butt when she hit that hood on the head with a statue? 

 

Felicity (and Digg) did so much for Oliver in that episode I realized that Oliver needed someone like her to keep on pushing him. That's when I realized how great they could be together. 

[ohjoy]

I adore that scene So. Much.  My sister and I just finished a rewatch of S1 and when we got to that scene my finger might have accidentally (or not) hit the rewind button.  Yeah, it's just that whole pause-laugh Oliver does and the look on his face, like he can't help it and the whole thing is capped by Diggle just walking away, like he just can't anymore.  I never saw that as SA reacting, though (as himself, as opposed to how Oliver would react (it's late, does that even make sense?).  It's always struck me as Oliver trying so hard to keep it together and just get through the conversation, but being defenseless against Felicity in his drugged state.  Oh, I sinceriously adore that scene.

You and me both. I think that was the scene when I fell in love with Team Arrow as a unit. Every reaction was perfection -- especially Diggle just walking away. I laughed so hard, and then hit the rewind button. Again.

[wingster55]

Felicity (and Digg) did so much for Oliver in that episode I realized that Oliver needed someone like her to keep on pushing him.

 

I forget...what did Diggle do in that ep for Oliver?

[wonderwall]

I think he did more off screen than on. I'm pretty sure that Digg helped Felicity throughout the whole episode. While Felicity may have been the one who had the ideas for the upgrade, I'm pretty sure Digg did all the heavy lifting. He also went to Lian Yu to bring Oliver back, although his reasons may not have been as noble as Felicity's, he still wanted to make a difference in the city and he needed Oliver for that. 

[Ceylon5]

Those of you who 'ship Oliver/Felicity -- when did you start 'shipping them?

 

I was actually only watching the show with half my attention, so I hadn't actually given it any thought other than to simply assume that they were meant to ultimately end up together.  Since I didn't know the show was based on comics, I had no reason to think that the weird unpleasant Laurel/Oliver relationship was ever meant to go anywhere, especially given how quickly and easily Oliver always seemed to get into and out of relationships with every woman he saw other than Felicity.  That meant that Felicity was his special, unique relationship, and was therefore end-game (not that I had actively thought it through, but that was my instinctive assumption based on every other show I've watched).

 

But, then the S2 finale happened.  I was watching it with my sister, snarking away (because it's that kind of show), when suddenly the "He took the wrong woman" thing happened, and boy were we suddenly both paying total attention (my sister actually looked up from her phone!).  It was so very unexpected, because shows always take for-freaking-ever to get the end-game couples together (looking at you, JAG), and I'm not used to TV surprising me any more.  Of course, they half took it back, but by then the genie was out of the bottle - once the words were said, they were suddenly in a new phase of the process and the ship had officially set sail for me. So, yes, now I'm paying attention and am on board the ship, so it had better not founder!  I even went back and rewatched the whole series again, this time paying attention (okay, I still skipped a couple of Laurel scenes, but I did try to watch most of her boring schlock).

 

And even with the knowledge that I've subsequently gained about canaries and what not, I don't for a second believe that Oliver and Felicity are anything other than end-game (barring the actress choosing to leave before the show ends, or something like that).  Whether they'll do a good job with the relationship, though, is the real question...

Edited August 12, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Carrie Ann]

I started shipping it when I saw a reference to Olicity on Twitter around S1E21, I think? Honestly, before then I didn't let myself really consider it because Lauriver seemed like the path, and I tend to avoid non-canon ships because they only make me sad (show canon, not comics canon, to be clear). But suddenly, I saw more media people referring to it and talking about it, and it seemed possible for the first time. During the hiatus, I became more hopeful and S2E6 is when I realized the show was actually going to go there, and I was all in.

[statsgirl]

I avoid shipping non-canon ships too because they're only going to break my heart.  (And on shows where they change direction, it really does hurt.)  I don't know when I actively started shipping Oliver and Felicity as a couple; I just knew that I really liked seeing them in scenes together. 

[BkWurm1]

@Orion

I found it!  I found it!  Absolutely by accident after spending hours trying to track it down on purpose. 

 

This is the link to the article that does a very in depth comparison of the S1 and S2 finales (specific to what I mentioned - goes into detail why maybe Tommy got the big heroic epic moment and not Oliver)

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/91274954628/moments-of-truth-olivers-s1-s2-queen-mansion-love

[Orion]

@BkWurm1 Thank you, that was a great read and I appreciate you finding it!!

 

 It was a really nice analysis of those two Queen Mansion scenes. I missed all the light symbolism. The author of the article makes a very compelling argument contrasting both the words and the staging of the finales. 

[BkWurm1]

Oh you're welcome.  It was funny, until I stated reading the article I'd forgotten about Laurel at the mansion at the end of season 1.  It was as she says, totally forgettable. 

[KirkB]

It was as she says, totally forgettable.

 

Now you've got me wondering. What is the single most memorable thing Laurel has done in two seasons? It should be fairly easy to pick one for Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Quentin, Moira, Thea, Roy, Tommy, even Malcolm, Slade, Blood, Nyssa and Isabel, but has Laurel really DONE anything?

Edited August 14, 2014 by KirkB

[ohjoy]

She took that jacket from her sister. That's pretty much the only thing I remember.

[TanyaKay]

 

 It was a really nice analysis of those two Queen Mansion scenes. I missed all the light symbolism. The author of the article makes a very compelling argument contrasting both the words and the staging of the finales. 

 

I am not sold on light symbolism because every romantic moment in the final episode of season 1 had background lighting. Thea and Roy's kiss in the middle of Glades chaos also had some very bright background lighting. I guess the director/cinematographer for the episode was big on light/romance reference. However, I did notice the bit about Oliver's "I love yous" on the show.

 

Despite dating/sleeping/having feelings for various women, Oliver never said I love you to any of his romantic interests. Apart from the fake/not so fake 'I love you' with Felicity, he has said those words only to the people who're related to him - his mom and his sister.

In 46 episodes, the only woman who got an 'I love you' out of Oliver Queen was Felicity and that was significant as hell. Stephen Amell really sold that with his puppy dog expressions in the last scene at the beach.

 

Now you've got me wondering. What is the single most memorable thing Laurel has done in two seasons? It should be fairly easy to pick one for Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Quentin, Moira, Thea, Roy, Tommy, even Malcolm, Slade, Blood, Nyssa and Isabel, but has Laurel really DONE anything?

 

For me, the most memorable Laurel scene is the one where she threw her wine glass at her sister when she found out that she is back after being dead for 6 years.

Another thing that I remember is that she was a total bitch to her mom when she first visited her in season 1 but yeah, that was about it.

Edited August 14, 2014 by TanyaKay

[KenyaJ]

For me, the most memorable Laurel scene is the one where she threw her wine glass at her sister when she found out that she is back after being dead for 6 years.

 

This was mine too. The second was humiliating Quentin at the dinner from hell.

[foreverevolving]

Now you've got me wondering. What is the single most memorable thing Laurel has done in two seasons? It should be fairly easy to pick one for Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Quentin, Moira, Thea, Roy, Tommy, even Malcolm, Slade, Blood, Nyssa and Isabel, but has Laurel really DONE anything?

Exploding wine glass!

[BkWurm1]

The second was humiliating Quentin at the dinner from hell.

 

This was my first thought. 

 

I can't think of anything really significant in season 1.  I guess there is her running into Oliver at the courthouse and being the ice bitch from hell in front of her client after Oliver had left the courtroom really shaken up by the legal process of no longer being dead.  She just blindsided him. What made it worse was when we'd last seen her in episode one, she had basically set most of her initial rage over what Oliver did to her aside so that her tirade in City Hall felt not like the righteous fire of the wronged so much as the petty tantrum of the woman rebuffed.  (Since when she reached out, Oliver said she was better off staying away from him) 

 

I guess I remember that scene in season one better than I thought. 

This is fun, when we finish discussing Laurel, we should move on to another character and compile a semi-definitive list!

[Ceylon5]

Now you've got me wondering. What is the single most memorable thing Laurel has done in two seasons? It should be fairly easy to pick one for Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Quentin, Moira, Thea, Roy, Tommy, even Malcolm, Slade, Blood, Nyssa and Isabel, but has Laurel really DONE anything?

 

Telling Oliver that she knew him like she knew her own name (not to mention, in her bones).  She's not normally an amusing character, but I found that hysterically funny.  I'm pretty sure she asked Felicity and Diggle to give her privacy to talk to Oliver because she didn't want their hilarious laughter to distract her mid-speech.

 

ETA:  It’s just occurred to me that perhaps the writers were trying to go for a whole The Scarlet Pimpernel thing with Laurel & Oliver (SPOILER ALERT: if you haven’t read this book and don’t want to be spoiled as to the Scarlet Pimpernel’s identity, please don’t read the rest of this post).

 

A refresher on the plot: The dashing, daring hero called the Scarlet Pimpernel, hides under his real identity, Sir Percy Blakeney, who is thought to be “the sleepiest, dullest, most British Britisher that ever set a pretty woman yawning”.  He marries Marguerite St Just, considered to be “the cleverest woman in Europe”, but who does not know his secret.  The crux of the love story is to answer the question of why these two people fell in love and married each other even though they clearly didn’t know each other at all.  And that answer is basically that despite the secrets, they instinctively recognised truths about each other’s essence anyway and that’s what they fell in love with.

 

The trouble with trying to use this approach for Laurel & Oliver is that:

1) Blakeney was never an ass like pre-island Oliver and didn’t need an “island” to become a hero.  He loved Marguerite passionately from the moment he met her and certainly never cheated on her, even when they were basically estranged.

2) Marguerite fell in love with an apparent fool and unexpectedly married him because she had always felt “that behind his apparently slow wits was a certain something, which he kept hidden from all the world, and most especially from her”.  She wasn’t interested in his wealth and title, but was attracted by his passion for her which revealed to her (even if she didn’t realise it at the time) that there was far more to him than met the eye.  She trusted that instinct enough to marry him.  This doesn’t work with Laurel/Oliver because when she first dated him, there wasn’t more to him than met the eye.  And when there was more to him, she didn’t seem to see it at all.  (Felicity, on the other hand…)

3) The love story between them, riddled with misunderstandings, misplaced pride and secrets as it may have been, works because despite all that, neither of them was ever the slightest bit interested in anyone else and both wanted nothing but the other’s love.  No need to expand on the Oliver/Laurel fail in this regard.

4) When she realised who he was, Marguerite’s response was “Her very blindness in not having guessed her husband’s secret seemed now to her another deadly sin.  She ought to have known!”   Not, you know, “I know you like I know my own name.”

 

You can't base a premise as delicate as "loving despite not knowing" on the shifting sands of cheating, sister-swapping, baby-mamas, etc., because those things automatically negate the premise.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Ceylon5

[KirkB]

It's, at best, crappy writing when you have one character tell another "I know you in your bones" and "like I know my own name" when you've gone out of your way to show that character didn't know the other had: 1)cheated on her and fathered a child with someone else   2)cheated on her with her own sister   3)was running around the city in a green outfit shooting people with arrows. Unless the writers are intentionally trying to make Laurel look foolish, or ignorant, or blind, or something, then I have no idea what their thinking process is. I suppose someone could be deliberately character assassinating Laurel for some reason.

Edited August 14, 2014 by KirkB

[Password]

I think (hope) they might address this...soon. If not then they're just foolish in their attempts to make us see Laurel knows Oliver well. Nothing on the show tells us she knows Oliver at all. Maybe this season she'll have her reality check. I can only hope.

[Ceylon5]

It's interesting to note that Oliver never seemed too worried that Laurel would work out who the vigilante was despite him constantly showing up at her home and work; however he never attempted to approach Felicity as the Arrow before the day he showed up bleeding in her car, and on that occasion he immediately told her who he was.  It's like he assumed that Felicity would work out who he was sooner rather than later and that if she ever met the vigilante, she would promptly put 2 and 2 together and get 4.

 

Also, when they each found out, Felicity's response was an immediate light-bulb "Everything about you just became so unbelievably clear" moment.  Granted Laurel's information came from a potentially unreliable source, but still, she had no light-bulb moment and had to do a whole crazy wall to convince herself that it could possibly be true.

 

Random side-queries: how did Oliver know which was Felicity's car (I can't imagine he had the time or opportunity to check the staff records after he got shot, and why would he have before?), and how did he get it open?

[KirkB]

Well, Laurel didn't recognize her own sister when she was face to face with her for most of "Birds of Prey" and he was able to serially cheat on her, so Oliver may very well be aware of how generally oblivious Laurel is. Hell, that could even be part of the reason he was dating her in the first place, because he recognized how easy it would be to get away with things.

 

As for Oliver knowing Felicity's car, he may have done a background check or something on her prior to approaching her in the beginning, which might include which was her parking space and license plate number. Getting into the car, well, I imagine carjacking is something he picked up "on the island". That's presuming he and Tommy didn't steal one another's cars for fun or something in the past.

Edited August 14, 2014 by KirkB

[blixie]

 

to show that character didn't know the other had: 1)cheated on her and fathered a child with someone else   2)cheated on her with her own sister   3)was running around the city in a green outfit shooting people with arrows.

 

Re: the cheating I actually think there is some question of her not knowing he was cheating, and actively deciding she didn't care per that convo with Sara about sleeping with at least 10 other girls. She doesn't deny that Oliver has slept around and/or cheated on her, she merely insists that if Sara had a man who wanted to spend the rest of his life with her she wouldn't ruin it.  Except we know Oliver doesn't even want to live with her much less spend the rest of his life with her, and is actively scamming on Sara at that exact moment!)

 

It's why I can never fully fault Katie Cassidy or lack of chemistry, the failure of Laurel Lance as a character and the failure of her supposed OTP with Oliver , is 100% on the writing. This "great romance" between Oliver/Laurel is never shown on screen, despite flashbacks being an integral aspect of the show. It's all tell, and even what they TOLD us was *terrible*, and by any sane persons stick, a forever DEALBREAKER: fucking your girlfriend's sister, to passive aggressively avoid a live in boyfriend commitment. 

 

The writing never gave Laurel a chance to balance her *wholly justifiable anger* with compassion/understanding for what he might have had to do to survive shipwrecked for five years. Instead they wrote her a lot of snippy, bitchy lines peppered with a few, oh yeah maybe being literally horribly scarred while shipwrecked for five years was kind of a bummer scenes. Meanwhile Oliver decides to play come here -go away with her, which only furthered skewed their dynamic towards unpleasant to watch.

 

My only guess is they were trying to go for this whole severed identity thing where Laurel felt a close (unidentifiable) kinship to/trust in The Hood, but couldn't forgive pre island Oliver who betrayed her, nor post island Oliver who is distant and dickish and pushing her away. Eventually she would make the connection (The Hood IS Oliver) and realize he was finally the man she only pretended he was before. But in the mean time you have completely robbed Laurel of the things that build characters: history, and dimension. She existed to be pissed at Oliver until such time as she would no longer be pissed at Oliver.

Edited August 14, 2014 by blixie

[dtissagirl]

My only guess is they were trying to go for this whole severed identity thing where Laurel felt a close (unidentifiable) kinship to/trust in The Hood, but couldn't forgive pre island Oliver who betrayed her, nor post island Oliver who is distant and dickish and pushing her away. Eventually she would make the connection (The Hood IS Oliver) and realize he was finally the man she only pretended he was before. But in the mean time you have completely robbed Laurel of the things that build characters: history, and dimension. She existed to be pissed at Oliver until such time as she would no longer be pissed at Oliver.

 

For the first half of S1 I legit thought this was their master plan -- Laurel/Oliver in hate vs Laurel/Hood in love until she slowly learned Oliver had repented and one day she'd figure out they were one and the same and ~love wins~. But then they ditched that around mid-season, I'm guessing because that's when they started getting audience response, and it wasn't working.

[SilverLake0315]

Random side-queries: how did Oliver know which was Felicity's car (I can't imagine he had the time or opportunity to check the staff records after he got shot, and why would he have before?), and how did he get it open?

 

I almost replied "He'd been in her car before!  She pointed it out to him at Big Belly Burger when she brought him the book." and "He picked the lock with an instrument he had in his pocket." 

 

This is what's known as a sure sign that I've been reading entirely too many fanfics during hiatus... lol

[foreverevolving]

I almost replied "He'd been in her car before!  She pointed it out to him at Big Belly Burger when she brought him the book." and "He picked the lock with an instrument he had in his pocket." 

 

This is what's known as a sure sign that I've been reading entirely too many fanfics during hiatus... lol

Now i'm dying to know which story it is, cause i can't remember that. either it was one i didn't read, or one that was so bad i didn't continue to read so never reached that part of the fic.

[SilverLake0315]

Now i'm dying to know which story it is, cause i can't remember that. either it was one i didn't read, or one that was so bad i didn't continue to read so never reached that part of the fic.

 

I read the whole thing last night (after telling myself I wouldn't start any new ones that were "in progress" because the waiting kills me!).

 

This Ain't Love (It's Clear To See)  http://archiveofourown.org/works/1745657?view_full_work=true