Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

Sara and Oliver are off the table for me. Too. Much. Baggage. No thank you, the whole reason I like Oliver and Felicity is how simple their relationship is. Oliver has ten thousand things to deal with on his own. Sara does too. Too much for one show? Yep.

Sara getting back together with Oliver already showed me she doesn't care all that much about her relationship with her sister so, all Lance sisters kept far from Oliver Queen sounds good to me. They don't exactly bring out the best in each other.

Edited August 4, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Angel12d]

i think the show is trying to cut down on shipper wars by saying unequivocally that Oliver and Laurel are done for the moment.

 

Stephen Amell said it and a lot of people thought it was just an actor and no need to believe him.  This is the voice of the EPs and WB confirming it.

 

I think stating that O/L are done for now is a good way of stopping all the shipping wars in theory but in reality? Not working. I saw an increase of hate towards Olicity (and then the reactions from Olicity fans) the moment the news came out of SDCC.

 

The fact is Lauriver does have its fans (I am not one of them at all) and I think having harsh tumblr tags on the show's official tumblr page about that ship is just cruel. I'm all for not stringing fans along but there are better ways of doing that. An official tumblr account should be kept neutral. 

 

Saying that, I'm still surprised that the EP's and Stephen Amell even came out with everything they did so I guess neutrality kind of went out of the window. 

[blixie]

Aww, I love Sara/Oliver, I don't see how they can ever go completely out of the other's life given what they've shared, all the bad and good. I didn't love them hooking up again, but I found that pretty believable human, they don't have to do a lot of emotional math when they are together, it's easy and comfortable, quick and uncommitted. They're fondness for one another feels really nice and I'd hate to see them deprive themselves of that friendship, but that is where it needs to stay.

 

Same with Laurel, the Lance sisters as Oliver's friends I can roll with.

 

 

Felicity just not going there due to everything from the Laurel issue to his PTSD to his very focused mission to the very fact that they were a team.

 

Exactly I don't think Felicity is as caught up in her feeling for Oliver as he is with his for her, but she has SO many good reasons to hold herself back that don't have anything to do with being insecure. Their work together, his PTSD, his romantic track record, all of which led her to leave those feelings on the shelf, until he made his confession in Unthinkable, at which point yeah she was like OH so this is like real thing, that is happening, that could happen? Where as I think of Oliver already being at the end of that road, standing outside the Love Shack, with his eyes closed, and his fingers in his ears, going LALALALALA! He doesn't know how to get back to the time before he was totally gobsmacked in love with her, sleeping with other women to forget about her, before he was "dreaming about her" and overkilling Count Vertigo for her. 

[TanyaKay]

Nope they changed the name again, it's Laullie now.

 

must admit, I laughed out loud at that one.

[Password]

I think stating that O/L are done for now is a good way of stopping all the shipping wars in theory but in reality? Not working. I saw an increase of hate towards Olicity (and then the reactions from Olicity fans) the moment the news came out of SDCC.

 

The fact is Lauriver does have its fans (I am not one of them at all) and I think having harsh tumblr tags on the show's official tumblr page about that ship is just cruel. I'm all for not stringing fans along but there are better ways of doing that. An official tumblr account should be kept neutral. 

 

Saying that, I'm still surprised that the EP's and Stephen Amell even came out with everything they did so I guess neutrality kind of went out of the window. 

 

It's so weird that people think the show will turn into the Olicity show. I don't really know why because it's not like Arrow makes the show about romance whenever there is a romantic element. More than Oliver and Felicity getting together the show is about Oliver seeing whether or not having his cake and eating it is possible.

 

I do think it's pretty mean rubbing it into the Lauriver (Laullie is just no) fans already hurting wounds. I actually thought the show would try to rebuild the Oliver-Laurel relationship now that the truth is out. Like they can finally see each other the way they truly are...and then end wonderfully. Just because I saw the relationship as tanked (with Sara, before Sara) doesn't mean they did.

 

Exactly I don't think Felicity is as caught up in her feeling for Oliver as he is with his for her, but she has SO many good reasons to hold herself back that don't have anything to do with being insecure. Their work together, his PTSD, his romantic track record, all of which led her to leave those feelings on the shelf, until he made his confession in Unthinkable, at which point yeah she was like OH so this is like real thing, that is happening, that could happen? Where as I think of Oliver already being at the end of that road, standing outside the Love Shack, with his eyes closed, and his fingers in his ears, going LALALALALA! He doesn't know how to get back to the time before he was totally gobsmacked in love with her, sleeping with other women to forget about her, before he was "dreaming about her" and overkilling Count Vertigo for her. 

 

That is exactly how I saw Oliver pre-ILY confession things. LALALALALALALA I can't hear or see anything to do with my feelings LALALALALA.

 

Oh my word Felicity and insecure don't compute with me. I blatantly ignore ToD because it needs to be ignored. Forever. I don't think she'd be insecure, very surprised yes because I'm pretty sure she shelved her feelings too. Her reaction to the ILY was basically mine. "Oh." And then obviously I fangirled and squealed but no one needs to hear more about that.

Edited August 4, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Angel12d]

It's so weird that people think the show will turn into the Olicity show. I don't really know why because it's not like Arrow makes the show about romance whenever there is a romantic element. More than Oliver and Felicity getting together the show is about Oliver seeing whether or not having his cake and eating it is possible.

 

I do think it's pretty mean rubbing it into the Lauriver (Laullie is just no) fans already hurting wounds. I actually thought the show would try to rebuild the Oliver-Laurel relationship now that the truth is out. Like they can finally see each other the way they truly are...and then end wonderfully. Just because I saw the relationship as tanked (with Sara, before Sara) doesn't mean they did.

 

I know. I don't get how it could turn into the Olicity show either. Their moments combined barely add up to a few minutes each episode. Some episodes they don't even have a 'moment' because it's all Team Arrow go-go-go dynamic. I think they strike the balance really well actually. I can't see that changing. Obviously Olicity will have a bit more time dedicated to it in 301 because it's an important plot of the season but I can actually see us having less Olicity moments this season. I don't know what the problem is. Some people just have to complain.

 

You know, I don't like Lauriver as a romantic pairing, never did and never will, but I'm interested to see how they rebuild their friendship now that the truth is out. There's potential there to right all the wrongs. Just because they shouldn't be romantic doesn't mean they don't care about each other. 

[Ceylon5]

I think it's pretty significant that the only age-appropriate woman who has spent any appreciable time with Oliver whom he hasn't attempted to sleep with so far is Felicity.  Oliver doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has ever friend-zoned an attractive woman; he gets them into bed just on principle.  He even managed to get action on a "deserted" island (with the only woman there at the time), which is pretty impressive by anyone's standards.  Back in the day, he didn't let the fact that he had a girlfriend slow him down either.  And post-island Oliver hasn't wasted any time (of which he has little to spare) getting women, even to the point of unwisely rehashing old broken-beyond-repair relationships.  He hasn't gone so far as to trespass on Diggle's ladies, but he did step all over Tommy's toes in one of his more douche-tastic moments.

 

The fact that he kept his hands off Felicity, despite the fact that he clearly connected with her from the moment they met, and the fact that she spends ALL her time with him and is single and clearly attracted to him, seems to me to say that this is something unique for Oliver; something brand new that he's never experienced before.  I think maybe that's why the relationship is so interesting to watch and why it is capable of becoming a catalyst for Oliver's personal growth in the coming year.  Relationships, particularly romantic ones, are Oliver's Waterloo.  He needs to come to terms with his shortcomings and learn "another way", like he did last season with the no-kill rule, and his confusing and conflicting feelings for Felicity are the crucible in which he will most likely learn to do this.  Without getting to sleep with her first.  And, perhaps as significantly, without sleeping with anyone else in the meantime, either. Should be a pretty interesting journey.  And it's Oliver's journey to make, it's not about romance or even about Felicity herself, it's about an inner brokenness and inadequacy that Oliver needs to come to terms with and then overcome.  Despite always seeming so intense in his relationships, he's always run away from real commitment, so the question is, can he change?  The beginning of the journey is the desire to change; the end of it will hopefully be the capacity to change.

 

As far as Felicity is concerned, the girl is just superhero catnip.  She doesn't even need to go anywhere - they all come and find her.  Seems she's destined for an unusual life, and I think once Oliver realises that she's suffering from an embarrassment of riches in the superhero department, and apparently will never meet anyone normal, he'll figure better him than anyone else.  To me, her dating options (assuming she wants to date) have always actually been really limited, because neither of her available choices is great:

1) date one of the guys on the team - Diggle's taken; Roy's too young and is still hung up on Thea; and Oliver's... well, just a problem on multiple levels; or

2) date someone not on the team, somehow without telling them about her night-time activities (because we know that telling her boyfriend about Arrow would go down like a ton of bricks with Oliver).  So she'd have to lie constantly (not her strong suit), while hardly ever spending any time with him and, well, clearly that wouldn't work out.  Even if the guy was in the know, I imagine he'd be pretty unimpressed with her spending 95% of her free time with Oliver of the Amazing Abs, constantly in danger, breaking the law and whatnot.  So lose-lose.

 

So long as she's a part of the team, I can't see any outside relationship she has working.  Which really just leaves her with Oliver.  Time-wise, that makes the most sense, because she spends so much time with him already, and I think a lack of spare time would be a significant problem for her dating anyone else.  As far as everything else is concerned... well, who knows?  Seems to me she's kind of already chosen Oliver, even if she hasn't consciously realised that.  By aligning herself to his cause, she's basically made that the main drive of her life, and she really doesn't have the resources to get deeply involved with someone else.  There's only so much Felicity to go around.  But maybe she'll have to learn this by trial and error, and that's her journey.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ceylon5

[writersblock51]

I'm still surprised that the EP's and Stephen Amell even came out with everything they did so I guess neutrality kind of went out of the window.

 

I think the show will be better off over all by committing Oliver to a relationship at this poiint instead of having him flit between Lance sisters and flirt/EyeSex with Felicity.  I'm glad they're going with Oliver and Felicity, too, but am also hoping - for reasons that many of you have explained extremely well - that it's done carefully, organically and continues to show growth for both characters (not just Oliver).

Edited August 5, 2014 by Lisin

[Password]

2) date someone not on the team, somehow without telling them about her night-time activities (because we know that telling her boyfriend about Arrow would go down like a ton of bricks with Oliver).  So she'd have to lie constantly (not her strong suit), while hardly ever spending any time with him and, well, clearly that wouldn't work out.  Even if the guy was in the know, I imagine he'd be pretty unimpressed with her spending 95% of her free time with Oliver of the Amazing Abs, constantly in danger, breaking the law and whatnot.  So lose-lose.

 

 

I read a fanfic that is pretty much that exact situation. Unless Mr. Atom bomb is in the know with Oliver and Felicity decides she needs alone time away from the Arrowcave, a proper relationship seems fairly impossible for reasons stated above. The EPs did say Felicity will have to come to terms whether or not she's just a crush or someone more. I'm also glad the EPs have decided a route for now and are working towards that because, even Tony Starc, whom I hear is the ultimate ladies man, had a constant in Pepper in the movies. Things translate differently in comics than TV so yay for the writers and EPs.

 

I really like that it seems this season is focusing on other members of the show, including Felicity and Diggle. Everyone on this show deserves some attention, even Laurel. I stand by the fact that I don't understand why Laurel even wants Oliver in her life, but she's here to stay so more power to her.

[Sunshine]

There are at least 3 relationships they want us to buy into in Season 3.  Oliver has romantic feelings for Felicity.  Laurel is getting a love interest that is not Oliver.  Laurel and Oliver are "business" partners and they are probably building a friendship.  Although the TUMBLR gifs aren't necessarily kind, isn't it kinder to put their cards on the table for S3 than to go through another season of nothing but ship wars in the media?

[dtissagirl]

...What @Ceylon5 said, everything. :)

 

And it's Oliver's journey to make, it's not about romance or even about Felicity herself, it's about an inner brokenness and inadequacy that Oliver needs to come to terms with and then overcome.  Despite always seeming so intense in his relationships, he's always run away from real commitment, so the question is, can he change?  The beginning of the journey is the desire to change; the end of it will hopefully be the capacity to change.

 

This seems to dovetail nicely with what EBR said at the Upfronts, about Oliver figuring out what he wants from life -- that's his deal, and he has to work it out on his own.

 

 

I'm also glad the EPs have decided a route for now and are working towards that because, even Tony Starc, whom I hear is the ultimate ladies man, had a constant in Pepper in the movies. Things translate differently in comics than TV so yay for the writers and EPs.

 

The womanizer playboy thing is never not demeaning to women [come on, mass media, it's 2014!], but I guess it works in the comics because that's a medium with SUPER SLOW character development. And it works for James Bond because he also doesn't develop, it's the exact same character frozen in the same plateau of evolving, forever. But on a show like Arrow, that is telling a story about a guy who is growing into a true hero, there comes a point where he just has to stop being a womanizer.

 

And they might even be able to keep him a douche to women in the flashbacks if they want to, so it's not like the CW has to lose the naked sexytimes appeal completely.

[TanyaKay]

I think it's pretty significant that the only age-appropriate woman who has spent any appreciable time with Oliver whom he hasn't attempted to sleep with so far is Felicity.  Oliver doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has ever friend-zoned an attractive woman; he gets them into bed just on principle.  He even managed to get action on a "deserted" island (with the only woman there at the time), which is pretty impressive by anyone's standards.  Back in the day, he didn't let the fact that he had a girlfriend slow him down either.  And post-island Oliver hasn't wasted any time (of which he has little to spare) getting women, even to the point of unwisely rehashing old broken-beyond-repair relationships.  He hasn't gone so far as to trespass on Diggle's ladies, but he did step all over Tommy's toes in one of his more douche-tastic moments.

 

The fact that he kept his hands off Felicity, despite the fact that he clearly connected with her from the moment they met, and the fact that she spends ALL her time with him and is single and clearly attracted to him, seems to me to say that this is something unique for Oliver; something brand new that he's never experienced before.  I think maybe that's why the relationship is so interesting to watch and why it is capable of becoming a catalyst for Oliver's personal growth in the coming year.  Relationships, particularly romantic ones, are Oliver's Waterloo.  He needs to come to terms with his shortcomings and learn "another way", like he did last season with the no-kill rule, and his confusing and conflicting feelings for Felicity are the crucible in which he will most likely learn to do this.  Without getting to sleep with her first.  And, perhaps as significantly, without sleeping with anyone else in the meantime, either. Should be a pretty interesting journey.  And it's Oliver's journey to make, it's not about romance or even about Felicity herself, it's about an inner brokenness and inadequacy that Oliver needs to come to terms with and then overcome.

 

All valid points, just wanted to add that despite a self destructive streak and getting women in bed on the principle of the thing, Oliver stayed away from Diggle's women because he knew that Diggle would whoop his ass so fast that he would not even know what hit him. Poor Tommy was not spared, but then it was not just Oliver who screwed him over, Tommy's girl friend also did not waste a breath in jumping on Ollie (like actually jumping on him).

I have a feeling that they are hyping up the romantic aspect of the story for the premier, it is not going to be a major part of the story as the season plays out. It may have more time designated (let's say 8 minutes about him figuring out his feelings, asking Felicity out and the date from hell) in the premier but the episodes following that would follow the regular Arrow pattern that would have romance as a C sub plot (like Ep 2x07 where Moira's trial and Count Vertigo were the first and second plots and then Oliver killing for Felicity was a c sub plot) or episodes where there would be no romantic plot at all like the doll maker episode. Even the UST heavy episode like 2x10, the total time that Oliver and Felicity spent interacting with each other was under 4 minutes and Diggle was present for more than half of that interaction. It followed the season long arc of finding the masked man who is producing mirakuru and keeping and eye on mirakuru injected Roy, Sebastian Blood and his shenanigans, the episodic villain Sharpnel and random bombings in the Starling City. Felicity's absence, her arrival, their fight over her spending far too much time in Central City and Oliver's subsequent apology and the weird ass comment about Barry dreaming about Felicity (do grown ass men talk about things like that? I need to know) did not take much time and that is how they are going to keep it in the next season because at the end of the day, it is an action show based on characters developed by DC comics!

Edited August 5, 2014 by TanyaKay

[Angel12d]

I think the show will be better off over all by committing Oliver to a relationship at this poiint instead of having him flit between Lance sisters and flirt/EyeSex with Felicity.  I'm glad they're going with Oliver and Felicity, too, but am also hoping - for reasons that many of you have explained extremely well - that it's done carefully, organically and continues to show growth for both characters (not just Oliver).

 

I agree. I'm glad that Oliver will be all about Felicity from now on and that's not just because I love their relationship but I like who Oliver is when he's with Felicity and vice versa. The whole sister swapping thing has been a major source of discomfort for me and really off-putting at times. I can't root for a hero who thinks that kind of behaviour is ok. And I can't understand two fully grown women who think it's ok either. So I'm really pleased they are going to put Oliver's feelings for Felicity on record. I don't think there's any going back after that.

[Password]

I can't root for a hero who thinks that kind of behaviour is ok. And I can't understand two fully grown women who think it's ok either.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Angel12d]

The fact that he kept his hands off Felicity, despite the fact that he clearly connected with her from the moment they met, and the fact that she spends ALL her time with him and is single and clearly attracted to him, seems to me to say that this is something unique for Oliver; something brand new that he's never experienced before.  I think maybe that's why the relationship is so interesting to watch and why it is capable of becoming a catalyst for Oliver's personal growth in the coming year.  Relationships, particularly romantic ones, are Oliver's Waterloo.  He needs to come to terms with his shortcomings and learn "another way", like he did last season with the no-kill rule, and his confusing and conflicting feelings for Felicity are the crucible in which he will most likely learn to do this.  Without getting to sleep with her first.  And, perhaps as significantly, without sleeping with anyone else in the meantime, either. Should be a pretty interesting journey.  And it's Oliver's journey to make, it's not about romance or even about Felicity herself, it's about an inner brokenness and inadequacy that Oliver needs to come to terms with and then overcome.  Despite always seeming so intense in his relationships, he's always run away from real commitment, so the question is, can he change?  The beginning of the journey is the desire to change; the end of it will hopefully be the capacity to change.

 

So long as she's a part of the team, I can't see any outside relationship she has working.  Which really just leaves her with Oliver.  Time-wise, that makes the most sense, because she spends so much time with him already, and I think a lack of spare time would be a significant problem for her dating anyone else.  As far as everything else is concerned... well, who knows?  Seems to me she's kind of already chosen Oliver, even if she hasn't consciously realised that.  By aligning herself to his cause, she's basically made that the main drive of her life, and she really doesn't have the resources to get deeply involved with someone else.  There's only so much Felicity to go around.  But maybe she'll have to learn this by trial and error, and that's her journey.

 

Just want to highlight two of your points here because I couldn't agree more. I see Oliver's feelings for Felicity as something new and startling for him. I think part of the reason he has kept away is because she is an integral and vital part of his team and he doesn't want to compromise that, but mainly I think he has no guide for how he feels about her and it's confusing for him. I think he's sort of blown away by the depth of what he feels for her - this woman he never expected when he returned to Starling City.

 

Obviously he's going to cross that line in 301 because he's been lulled into a false sense of security but once he puts his feelings for her out there, out loud, there will be no going back from that. The s3 journey will be him coming to terms with that. 

 

Also, I think part of Felicity's journey is learning that even though there are other men out there, Oliver is the one she really wants. I'm sure her time spent in the lair will probably be a bone of contention if she ever has a proper relationship with Ray and that will probably bring things to a head later in the season. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'it's him or me' type conversation happening with Ray at some point.

[manbearpig]

I hope the show fleshes out the Lance sister dynamic next season because I really enjoyed their scenes together. It was slightly mishandled considering it took Sara have a season to even share a scene with Laurel, but when they finally shared screen time I enjoyed their scenes a lot. Cassidy and Lotz had the sisterly dynamic down immediately, and while I enjoyed some of the more toxic scenes they shared (glass throw!), I really enjoyed seeing Laurel open up to her sister about her struggles. They're great together and I hope the show can tell us more about their relationship without having to remind us of their previous involvement with Oliver.

[DrSpaceman10]

 It was slightly mishandled considering it took Sara have a season to even share a scene with Laurel, but when they finally shared screen time I enjoyed their scenes a lot. They're great together and I hope the show can tell us more about their relationship without having to remind us of their previous involvement with Oliver.

 

I agree, it took the show a long time to even have a scene with just the two of them, let alone one where they didn't talk about Oliver (2x22 I think?). I hope they explore more of their sister dynamic outside of Oliver this year. 

[writersblock51]

The sisters haven't passed the Bechdel Test in any of their scenes, have they?  They discuss either Oliver or Quentin.

[manbearpig]

Their scene in 2x22 doesn't specifically mention Quentin. Laurel does tell Sara that she should stay in Starling because her family is there, but the scene definitely isn't about Quentin, even though Laurel uses family as a way to get through to her sister. That counts, right?

 

In any case, I'm hoping the show can explore their relationship further in the future. It honestly became one of my favourite relationships on the show in a short amount of time, and now with my other favourite female relationship on the show gone (Moira/Thea), I'm hoping the show will put some focus on another female relationship with a lot of potential.

[writersblock51]

@manbearpig, that scene would pass, I think. So that's good. 

Sad that 2 sisters can have more than a dozen scenes together and only 1 passes the test, though.  I hope, like you, that there's more sisterly development between them that focuses on them as individuals and sisters, without having anything to do with Oliver (and not always involving Quentin, either). 

[Sakura12]

I'm more interested in Sara and Sin's relationship then Sara and Laurel. But then again I would rather not see Laurel at all, so that could be why I felt nothing for their sister relationship. I also don't think we got enough of them for me to form an opinion either. 

 

They didn't speak to each other for over 14 episodes and when they finally did, all they talked about was Oliver. Then Laurel didn't even care to ask why her sister was all scarred up, she was more interested in telling Oliver she loves because she found out he's a hero. 

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, I'd rather more Sin/Sara, I really enjoyed their interaction in S2.

[Angel12d]

They could have Sara introducing Sin to Laurel. It might give them a chance to make Laurel more likeable maybe.

[Sakura12]

How would Sin make Laurel more likable? Laurel would probably treat Sin like some homeless street trash. And I really don't want them giving Sin to Laurel when and if Sara dies. That would piss me off even more. If they want me to like Laurel they have to make her stand on her own, not get handed all of Sara's storylines.

 

Here's Sara's jacket, here's Sara's friend, here's Sara's bo-staff,  here's Sara's entire life. All super heroes should have origin stories like that. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Sakura12

[writersblock51]

Laurel has already met Sin - when Thea asked Laurel to help find out what happened to Sin and Roy's friend.

 

Laurel was fine in those scenes.  But my take away from that story was that Teen Arrow got dropped in favor of giving yet something else to Laurel that was someone else's to begin with. 

 

I'd rather watch Sarah & Sin's relationship develop, too.  Did Sarah even say good bye to her and explain where she was going and why?  I doubt we'll ever see that addressed, of course.

[Sakura12]

Did she address Sin directly though? Or was she just talking to Thea. 

[writersblock51]

I think she addressed mostly Thea but kind of encompassed all of them.  I don't think she'd be able to recognize Sin from anyone else if she walked up to her in Verdant, though.  And, I don't think she knows about Sin knowing Sara so well. 

[Angel12d]

How would Sin make Laurel more likable? Laurel would probably treat Sin like some homeless street trash. And I really don't want them giving Sin to Laurel when and if Sara dies. That would piss me off even more. If they want me to like Laurel they have to make her stand on her own, not get handed all of Sara's storylines.

 

Here's Sara's jacket, here's Sara's friend, here's Sara's bo-staff,  here's Sara's entire life. All super heroes should have origin stories like that. 

 

lol I have no idea. I'm just thinking of ways where Laurel and Sara could have scenes where it's not talking about sharing Oliver's dick. 

 

I agree, they need to make Laurel stand on her own but I can see them using popular characters to help that along because they already have a long process ahead of them in that regard.

Laurel has already met Sin - when Thea asked Laurel to help find out what happened to Sin and Roy's friend.

 

Laurel was fine in those scenes.  But my take away from that story was that Teen Arrow got dropped in favor of giving yet something else to Laurel that was someone else's to begin with. 

 

lol I forgot about that. I tend to blank on scenes with Laurel. Yikes!

[DrSpaceman10]

Oddly, I think I preferred Sin with Roy and Thea. Sara and Laurel had a cute scene in Verdant in 2x16 but in my opinion it was ruined by Laurel giving Oliver and Sara relationship advice. If Sara and Laurel are both going to be on the show I would like to see their sister dynamic explored more (without Oliver getting in the way).

[pootlus]

Thing is though the show is called "Arrow" and most things will tie back into Oliver which is fine. What the EPs frustratingly don't seem to grasp is that the plot interactions of two women unrelated to Oliver don't have to tie back into his penis. It is only a small part of his body/personality.

[SleepDeprived]

 

It is only a small part of his body/personality.

 

Oh, but I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with this. It is, probably, not small. Or, at least, every fanfic I've ever read tells me it really isn't. Although, sure, size doesn't matter, it's how you use it, yadda, yadda. But it's Oliver Queen. It matters.

 

 

Clearly, my maturity level is at an all-time low this early morning, if this is all I can muster to add to this discussion. I'm so sorry. I'll see myself out.

[wonderwall]

I got asked a question today from a friend whom I'm currently trying to force watch Arrow, and she asked why I liked Oliver and Felicity so much because I've never actively rooted for a couple in a show before... To be honest, I never really articulated it in one coherent thought so I thought I'd do it here and would like to hear your thoughts on this couple or any couple you actively root for. [Disclaimer: This is just my interpretation of what's been going on, on the show. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way]

 

I stopped watching the show mid-season 1 because I couldn't really connect to the characters and while Felicity did make her debut in the third episode, she was used sparingly and I didn't think that the writers would actually expand her role. Felicity and Digg were the only bright spots in season 1 for me, however, the lack of focus on them and the focus on the terrible triangle was what made me give up. However, when I found out that Felicity and Digg were regulars and started to see more news about them, I decided to give it another shot and I'm glad I did. While Felicity and Digg made Oliver human, it was Felicity who made Oliver a better man. It's nothing against Digg, but I thoroughly believe that without Felicity, Oliver would still be murdering people. Some people will say that Tommy was the reason for this, but if it wasn't for Felicity, Oliver would've listened to everyone in the finale and killed Slade. While Tommy was the inspiration for no killing, Felicity helped Oliver maintain that rule (which is tough work). This is what made me stay. The relationship between the three of them. 

 

While I didn't see a romantic connection between Oliver/Felicity in season one, I did see the writers creating a gorgeous foundation for a deep and meaningful relationship (whether it be romantic or platonic). Oliver and Felicity grew in season 1 from strangers to acquaintances to friends. In season 1, Oliver had only two constants in his life, that was his team and his mission. Felicity and Digg both proved their loyalty to be unwavering, but not only this, they proved to be Oliver's real friends by not taking any of his shit. While everyone in Oliver's life (Laurel, Moira, Thea) let Oliver do his thing no matter what and didn't question any of Oliver's choices, Felicity would go toe to toe with him, and it was an interesting dance to see because it made me realize that for once, Oliver doesn't wear the pants in the [romantic] relationship which was a new dynamic on the show. And then season 1 ended with a bang. Not only did Oliver lose one of the people he loved most, he also lost a prospective relationship with Laurel. What does Oliver do though? He runs away leaving Felicity and Digg behind. Did it mean that they didn't mean much to Oliver? I don't think so. I think it was just because Oliver didn't know how to handle such a loss. In the end, I was okay with Oliver running away. 

 

Then in season 2 we see that Felicity and Digg don't accept that. They don't accept running away as a solution and they are the ones who actively look for him. Not Laurel, not Thea, not Walter, but team Arrow. And in the first episode, Felicity's unwavering loyalty is further reinforced by how she jumped out of a plane for him. While some people overlook this moment, I feel as though it's a huge deal that Felicity would risk her life to bring back the man she's learned to care for. It just goes to show just how deep their friendship is and how faithful Felicity is to the Arrow and Oliver. This is when I realized just how great of a couple Oliver/Felicity could be and I wasn't proven wrong for in season two, they grow from being friends to best friends to equal partners. Again, we see Felicity go toe to toe with Oliver, not taking his shit, but all the while silently supporting him and making him a better person by showing him and telling him that there's always another way. However, it was clear that it wasn't just Felicity who made Oliver the best version of himself. Oliver made Felicity better as well and this we saw in the final three episodes.

 

While the second half of the season (bar the last 3 episodes) did drop the ball on their relationship a bit, Felicity was still always there in the background supporting him, thus the lines like 'you will always be my girl' and 'please save Oliver'. While these may have been throwaway lines, I feel like it was put in there because it's to make the audience not forget what Oliver/Felicity have.

 

The final three episodes deserve their own paragraph because it's rich in developing Oliver/Felicity's relationship. It was clear just how much they respected and deeply cared for each other in these episodes. It all started with Felicity telling Oliver not to just accept things and by telling him that he made her better by showing her that she could do more and be more than just an IT girl. So the audience sees here that both Oliver and Felicity benefit from their relationship. Then team Arrow fails when they don't get the cure. Oliver starts to doubt himself again and runs away from his problems by giving  up. He opens up to Felicity in the penultimate episode, Oliver barely opens up to anyone so it was a surprise to see him do so willingly with Felicity. But Felicity doesn't accept defeat because in that moment, she is his strength. She pulls Oliver back up by telling him she believes in him and that he's not alone. It was Felicity's belief in Oliver that kept him going and I thought that, that was a beautiful way to show just how deeply Oliver cares for Felicity and how much she affects him which we've never really seen this explicitly before. Then the final episode was just pure perfection. While it was all just a ruse, the chemistry between the two was so palpable that I didn't accept that Oliver didn't mean it. Because of course he meant it. He looked at her as if she were the moon, and it just made for a beautiful start for a romantic relationship. 

 

What resonated with me about these two was that the relationship between Oliver and Felicity wasn't forced. They realistically developed their relationship at a slow pace and it's clear that they've come a long way since the first season. What makes Oliver and Felicity work is the fact that they're both best friends first. They have an understanding of each other that they don't share with anyone else on the show (other than Digg, but that's not the point). I personally believe that friendship is a foundation to any good relationship. It's something unique to Oliver because I didn't see a sense of deep rooted friendship in any of his relationships. This is why Felicity is different. Felicity has seen Oliver at his worst and at his best and she's always accepted him, and I feel that Oliver would be the same with Felicity if she ever felt as though she'd failed. Isn't that what every relationship should aspire to? This is why I don't understand it when people say, "they're only good as just friends" because to me, friendship (not always) are the basis of strong romantic relationships. 

 

Deep down I think Oliver knows Felicity is different. Oliver understands that if he were to be with Felicity, everything would change and nothing could ever go back. Oliver staying away from Felicity is what makes me buy that Oliver actually truly loves her. When it comes to relationships, Oliver doesn't hold back, nor does mini-oliver, and it's usually straight to bed with his female partners. But Felicity? He asks her out on a date first. He thinks with his head and his heart and not his penis as he has done so many times with other women. This is what makes me believe that Oliver wouldn't be the same cheater as he was when it comes to Felicity. His relationship with Felicity makes me see just how far he has come as a person and just how much she changed him. 

 

And that leads me to the fact that Felicity nor Oliver ever romanticized ever being with each other. They never asked for anything the other couldn't give, nor did they ever try to push the other just as Oliver has with Laurel (his supposed one true love). Felicity and Oliver's relationship grounds the show, it's not as complicated as Oliver makes it seem, and it's easy. This is also what draws me to their relationship because in their complicated world, it's nice to see something simple play out. Their little simple world in a larger chaotic world. 

 

Anyways this post is long, and I think it's mostly me incoherently babbling. For anyone who read this entire post, kudos to you! I applaud your effort and appreciate you reading this :) 

Edited August 5, 2014 by wonderwall

[tv echo]

As far as Felicity is concerned, the girl is just superhero catnip.  She doesn't even need to go anywhere - they all come and find her.

If Felicity is "superhero catnip" (love the term, Ceylon5), I like the fact that it's her brains - not her looks - that first attracts these superheros to her.  Oliver first came to Felicity for IT help.  Barry first bonded with her when they talked science stuff and worked together.  It sounds like Ray Palmer will first become interested in her because of her IT expertise.

Edited August 5, 2014 by tv echo

[Ceylon5]

I've been giving Oliver's total uselessness at relationships a bit more thought and realised that his relationship with Felicity is arguably the only one that isn't either totally messed up and/or hasn't completely broken down at some point:

His mother - first the whole Undertaking/my mother shot me and is probably evil and is partly responsible for my dad's death thing; and then the lying about Thea's paternity debacle

His sister - relationship currently on a break... liars are not welcome in her life any more

His father - his father was (in)conveniently dead when Oliver found out about his affairs, in particular the one with Isabel, but I'm guessing that would have lead to... stuff (aka Oliver being hypocritically judgemental).  And committing murder/suicide in front of your son is just so messed up.  On top of which he expected Oliver to go and fix the messes he'd made.  Father of the Year.

Walter - for quite a while after Oliver first got home he was incredibly rude and hostile to Walter.  I'm glad he got over that.

Tommy - cheated with Tommy's girlfriend, and lied about being the Vigilante.  At the end there, Tommy was not a fan.  Also he sort of (?) killed Tommy's father, but Tommy was dead by this point, and Malcolm is alive again (??), so I won't count that part (too confusing).

Laurel - cheating, sister-swapping, blah, blah, blah

Sara - see Laurel, plus he took her on the Boat of Doom which wouldn't have happened if he weren't a cheating, lying, commitment-phobic ass.

Mr & Mrs Lance - see Laurel/Sara

Slade - murdering Oliver's mother in front of him and Thea about sums up this charming relationship.  Plus he was a serial kidnapper of all the women in Oliver's life, some of them more than once.  Plus he nearly destroyed Starling City.  Slade for the win.

Shado - Perhaps this was the least messed up relationship he had (though he was cheating on Laurel's photo at that point), but one has to wonder about the whole island birth control situation, which has been irritating me (you'd think he'd have vividly learned the lesson of how babies are made by then).  So, magic island herbs?  Also, things were rather awkward after Sara resurfaced (excuse the pun).  And this relationship's horrible ending led to lots of bad stuff, but that's not technically Oliver's fault.  Though keeping it in his pants certainly wouldn't have hurt...

Diggle - breaking his word and bailing on Diggle when he needed him (so he could run after Laurel).  It was only through Felicity's ongoing intervention that this relationship was restored, so the fact that he & Diggle are still friends is partly to her credit.

Helena - well, she's kind of crazy, so 'messed up' is inherent in anything she does.  Also, she kidnapped Felicity.  Not cool, Helena.

McKenna - got shot by Oliver's crazy ex (see Helena), plus the lying about being the Vigilante meant that was never going to work out.

Isabel - stole his company from him and plotted against him with Slade. Also slept with his father.

Blood - part of Slade's crazy plot, nearly destroyed the city he claimed to love & turned out to be the bad guy Oliver had been after all along. Good choice for a friend, Oliver.  Keep trusting those instincts of yours...

Barry - called him a liar and crapped all over everyone for the identity reveal, even though Barry saved his life.  Luckily Barry is a nice guy and took all that in stride.  This relationship only exists because of Felicity, though.

Baby-Mama - got her pregnant and then let his diabolical mother deal with the consequences.

His child - Oliver, you have failed this kid.

Roy - shooting him in the leg, making him break up with Thea, etc. Mentoring isn't really one of Oliver's gifts.

Anatoly - we don't have that full story yet, but the circumstances of their meeting and Oliver becoming part of the Russian Mafia at some as yet undetermined point are not inspiring confidence.  Still, at least they're on good terms.

Raisa - inexplicably missing since the pilot.  I worry about her.

 

Okay, that was exhausting.  All that to point out that only with Felicity does his relationship actually work on an on-going basis.  As others have noted, when Oliver messes up with Felicity (which he does, just like with everyone else), he quickly apologises and the relationship rights itself. This is unusual behaviour for Oliver, who is surprisingly judgemental for such a screw-up.  He's also unexpectedly honest with her.  So, we ask ourselves, why the break in character?  

 

I think it's because Oliver understands on a visceral level that he can't lose Felicity.  That's why he hasn't thoughtlessly entered into a sexual relationship with her, why he fixes his screw-ups with her, and why he tells her the truth.  He needs her, and not just because the Arrow needs her IT expertise.  He just needs her.  Full-stop.  (Or 'period', as you Americans say.)  Plus, she's the glue that helps hold some of his other relationships together when he inevitably mucks those up (Diggle, Barry), because he doesn't apologise to them as readily as he does to her.  Oliver listens to Felicity in a way that is actually unprecedented for him, and because of this, she's able to get him back on track when he screws up (which he does... a lot) or runs away or gives up, and that is what has kept his relationships with her and Diggle going for this long.  I hope it stays that way.  I like that she can bring the normal, nice guy out of the angry, damaged, cocky, judgemental, unforgiving, guilt-ridden, unable to say sorry douche version of himself that he's been perfecting for so long.  Plus she makes him smile, and I like his smile.

 

Stick with Felicity, Oliver.  Her name means happiness.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Morrigan2575]

An odd thought popped into my head the other day, I realized that post-Island Oliver has never ended a relationship on this show. 

 

Helena - went nuts but pretty much called him out on the romantic bs (or lack there of).

McKenna - Left for Coast City, Oliver offered to follow abandoning the mission (very odd)

Laurel - Called it quits in 201 saying they made a mistake in 122.

Sara - Gave the speech about finding someone that brings out Oliver's light and dumped.

 

I wonder if there's a reason for this and if it's something deep or just very shallow (on the part of the writers).  Are they trying to show that even after the Island Oliver isn't emotionally mature enough to deal with relationship issues so he just runs away/ignores them, is willing to stick it out in doomed relationships (McKenna, Sara)?  Is it supposed to tell us that post Island Oliver isn't the cheater he used to be and that he's all in with these relationships, it's not his fault the women keep dumping him?  Is it something really shallow, like they want Oliver to always be the dumpee so they can rack up manpain points?  Or is it something they're not even aware of doing?

[Ceylon5]

An odd thought popped into my head the other day, I realized that post-Island Oliver has never ended a relationship on this show. 

 

Helena - went nuts but pretty much called him out on the romantic bs (or lack there of).

McKenna - Left for Coast City, Oliver offered to follow abandoning the mission (very odd)

Laurel - Called it quits in 201 saying they made a mistake in 122.

Sara - Gave the speech about finding someone that brings out Oliver's light and dumped.

 

I wonder if there's a reason for this and if it's something deep or just very shallow (on the part of the writers).  Are they trying to show that even after the Island Oliver isn't emotionally mature enough to deal with relationship issues so he just runs away/ignores them, is willing to stick it out in doomed relationships (McKenna, Sara)?  Is it supposed to tell us that post Island Oliver isn't the cheater he used to be and that he's all in with these relationships, it's not his fault the women keep dumping him?  Is it something really shallow, like they want Oliver to always be the dumpee so they can rack up manpain points?  Or is it something they're not even aware of doing?

 

I think that's just how Oliver has always rolled.  He never seemed to want to confront situations he didn't like, so he'd find ways to get the other person to do the heavy lifting for him and dump him.  Helena saw that he was still 'involved' with Laurel and didn't want any part of that, which is fair enough.  I think his offer to go to Coast City with McKenna was on a par with telling Laurel they could get a place together - if McKenna hadn't seen through him, he probably would have found a creative way to sabotage the relationship (McKenna was going to stay with her sister, if you recall...).  In Laurel's case, hadn't he vanished for 5 months without a word?  Again, quite aside from the dead, cheated-on Tommy, that was fair enough.  She said the words, but he'd been pretty clear with his actions.  And with Sara, when she read more into his 'get a place together' than he intended, he pulled back from her and she sensed that.

[Password]

An odd thought popped into my head the other day, I realized that post-Island Oliver has never ended a relationship on this show. 

 

Helena - went nuts but pretty much called him out on the romantic bs (or lack there of).

McKenna - Left for Coast City, Oliver offered to follow abandoning the mission (very odd)

Laurel - Called it quits in 201 saying they made a mistake in 122.

Sara - Gave the speech about finding someone that brings out Oliver's light and dumped.

 

I wonder if there's a reason for this and if it's something deep or just very shallow (on the part of the writers).  Are they trying to show that even after the Island Oliver isn't emotionally mature enough to deal with relationship issues so he just runs away/ignores them, is willing to stick it out in doomed relationships (McKenna, Sara)?  Is it supposed to tell us that post Island Oliver isn't the cheater he used to be and that he's all in with these relationships, it's not his fault the women keep dumping him?  Is it something really shallow, like they want Oliver to always be the dumpee so they can rack up manpain points?  Or is it something they're not even aware of doing?

 

I always thought it was meant to show us Oliver isn't just a one night stand man anymore. But now I'm not so sure. It does seem significant that he's never the one to say it's over, or maybe it's just ironic. He didn't tell Laurel about his doubts and fears concerning them moving in together, instead he slept with Sara and a myriad of other women. Felicity will probably be the first woman where he's like "no we can't". That raw conversation really takes up too many of my thoughts because I want to know man.

[wonderwall]

The way I see it is with these relationships (bar Helena), Oliver never really wanted an out. I think that what post-island Oliver wanted was to be in a normal, healthy relationship which is why he never actually broke up with any of the women. It's just that the women in his life either never had the time, didn't want to make an effort, or realized sooner that they weren't a good fit. It's not that Oliver isn't confrontational (he usually has a lot on his mind), it's just that the women are more perceptive than Oliver whilst Oliver is just really desperate for any semblance of normalcy in his life. I'm going to give post-island Oliver the benefit of the doubt because when it comes down to it, he truly doesn't understand what it's like to be in a normal healthy relationship so he never knows when to end something that isn't worth the time. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

The way I see it is with these relationships (bar Helena), Oliver never really wanted an out. I think that what post-island Oliver wanted was to be in a normal, healthy relationship which is why he never actually broke up with any of the women. It's just that the women in his life either never had the time, didn't want to make an effort, or realized sooner that they weren't a good fit. It's not that Oliver isn't confrontational (he usually has a lot on his mind), it's just that the women are more perceptive than Oliver whilst Oliver is just really desperate for any semblance of normalcy in his life. I'm going to give post-island Oliver the benefit of the doubt because when it comes down to it, he truly doesn't understand what it's like to be in a normal healthy relationship so he never knows when to end something that isn't worth the time. 

 

I completely buy this logic.  I have always gotten the impression that post-island Oliver wanted nothing more than to make things right relationship-wise, whether it be romantic or not.  What was the first thing he wanted to do when he got home (after seeing his family)?  He went to see Laurel to apologize.  What did he spend the first couple of episodes doing?  Trying to steer Thea away from going down the same drug/party/casual sex road he did.  The island/Hong Kong trials clearly matured him because they forced him to realize how frivolous he was as Ollie, but just as others have mentioned, post-island Oliver hasn't had enough experience with real, solid relationships so he's making a ton of mistakes along the way.  That's why I can see Felicity being the opportunity for things to finally click for Oliver because they already have established a deep, meaningful friendship prior to bringing in the added complications of a sexual one.

[catrox14]

I don't think it's a matter of Oliver not wanting to deal with ending them or being non-confrontational, I think some of his reticence to end post-island relationships is because he wants to prove to himself he's no longer the douchebag pre-island Ollie coupled with actually being able to value relationships far more than he ever did pre-island.

[calliope1975]

I was thinking the other night about how Oliver becomes irrationally angry when Felicity is threatened which may lead to the

no we can't be together now theory for S3.

 

We've seen Oliver do ridiculous things with arrows and his accuracy is flawless. I totally believe he could have shot the syringe out of Vertigo's hand. Or shot Vertigo's hand. But he didn't. He put 3 fucking arrows in that dude's chest. And then looked almost genuinely shocked that he'd done it. I suppose there was also the wrinkle that Vertigo knew Arrow was Oliver Queen, but I don't know how many people would have believed the criminal who poisoned half the city and was formerly in an insane asylum. 

 

Anyway, in short, as much as I know that ladies can take care of themselves, there's a part of me that really digs on how murderous Oliver gets when Felicity is in danger. (And I will continue to believe that ToD was a pod people episode because it seemed like Oliver wasn't really concerned that Felicity got shot. And there's no way the guy who went all murderous after Huntress threatened Felicity, but was cool when she went after Tommy, wouldn't have had a bigger reaction to that.)

[Password]

I was thinking the other night about how Oliver becomes irrationally angry when Felicity is threatened which may lead to the

no we can't be together now theory for S3.

(And I will continue to believe that ToD was a pod people episode because it seemed like Oliver wasn't really concerned that Felicity got shot. And there's no way the guy who went all murderous after Huntress threatened Felicity, but was cool when she went after Tommy, wouldn't have had a bigger reaction to that.)

Here, here. Pod people indeed.

[Angel12d]

I was thinking the other night about how Oliver becomes irrationally angry when Felicity is threatened which may lead to the

no we can't be together now theory for S3.

 

We've seen Oliver do ridiculous things with arrows and his accuracy is flawless. I totally believe he could have shot the syringe out of Vertigo's hand. Or shot Vertigo's hand. But he didn't. He put 3 fucking arrows in that dude's chest. And then looked almost genuinely shocked that he'd done it. I suppose there was also the wrinkle that Vertigo knew Arrow was Oliver Queen, but I don't know how many people would have believed the criminal who poisoned half the city and was formerly in an insane asylum. 

 

Anyway, in short, as much as I know that ladies can take care of themselves, there's a part of me that really digs on how murderous Oliver gets when Felicity is in danger. (And I will continue to believe that ToD was a pod people episode because it seemed like Oliver wasn't really concerned that Felicity got shot. And there's no way the guy who went all murderous after Huntress threatened Felicity, but was cool when she went after Tommy, wouldn't have had a bigger reaction to that.)

 

Yes, I thought this. There was no need for him to kill the Count. He easily could have just shot him in the arm or even distracted him with an arrow to the leg which would have disarmed him long enough for Felicity to get away. The fact that he killed him just spoke volumes about how he feels about Felicity and what she incites within him.

 

Also, totally agree about the Time of Death episode. Partly because I think Oliver would have had more reaction to her getting shot, like you said, and partly because I don't believe Felicity would feel insecure about her place on the team. She's always been so certain about her abilities that it just rang false to me.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Angel12d

[TanyaKay]

Vertigo brings out a special kind of savage in Oliver Queen. Even though he did not kill the weirdo in the aquarium calling him the victim of Vertigo, the doctor who kept the Count in the hospital and was making Vertigo laced with anti psychotics was shot with three arrows. The Count 1.0 was shot with three arrows because he was threatening to inject Felicity with Vertigo. I think the Count 2.0 will be shot with at least 6 arrows because he actually hurt Felicity while they were on a date.

[DrSpaceman10]

I could never tell if we were supposed to think that Oliver had to kill The Count or if Oliver could have just shot him in the leg or something. When he told Felicity "there was no choice to make" I thought that meant he had to kill him?

Edited August 5, 2014 by drspaceman10

[Password]

The scene where he shot The Count with 3 arrows to save Felicity just spelt overkill to me. I don't really know if he set out to kill The Count or If that was his intention all along, but it certainly touched him because his reaction afterwards was "Ah I can't believe I did that." It was instinctive and he must have felt terrible about it. But there was no choice to make.

[blixie]

Three arrows wasn't necessary, he was half dead and falling out the window of a high rise. It would have been extremely easy to adhere to his no kill rule as was stated. He had no choice because he acted on instinct, fear of Felicity being hurt, and rage at the man who was trying to hurt her. In much the same way he instinctually jumped in front of Sara, the person he knew for far longer than he knew Shado. I really wish Ollie/Shado hadn't had any romantic storyline, it was such a Captain Kirk moment. Even on Hell Island, I Oliver Queen, can not help but score, even when I'm earnest and thick as a brick and kind of whiny with terrible terrible hair.

 

I did love when Sara showed up, Shado's reaction was like REALLY? You've been mooning over a photograph of a girl you CHEATED on with her sister?!  I think she was over him just that fast. We all get blinded by the abs girl. 

[TanyaKay]

I did love when Sara showed up, Shado's reaction was like REALLY? You've been mooning over a photograph of a girl you CHEATED on with her sister?!  I think she was over him just that fast. We all get blinded by the abs girl. 

 

It was one of those rare moments on TV where we see a character fall out of love with another in a heartbeat. Celina Jade was fabulous in the scene. Island Ollie humphed in response.

[KirkB]

Instinct would be firing one arrow. Oliver is good enough to put the Count's eye out (sorry Slade), hit the weapon, impale his leg, whatever. Nocking and aiming three arrows is deliberate, because there is no way that could do anything but kill.

[catrox14]

I loved Vertigo and wish Ollie hadn't killed him, but I fucking LOVED that Oliver didn't hesitate for a minute to kill him for threatening Felicity.  That was when I first realized he loved Felicity on some level IMO because his instinct to kill the person that was threatening to kill the person he loved overrode his No Killing policy.

Edited August 6, 2014 by catrox14