Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

I think SA was great with EBR, CL, girl who played Helena...

I thought he was meh with girl who played McKenna

Terrible with KC

[AyChihuahua]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I think SA was great with EBR, CL, girl who played Helena...

I thought he was meh with girl who played McKenna

Terrible with KC

I thought the Helena actress was not great, but improved, is totally gorgeous, and agreed, they had fine chemistry. He also had fine chemistry with the Isabel actress. Whereas I have always thought KC's chemistry with Colin is massively overrated...it was really only okay in comparison to the anti-chem with SA, and you could pretty much SEE Colin working to get anything. She also had crappy chem with the Blood guy, and the shiny boxer guy (who, tbf, was IMO TERRIBLE...except for the one boxing glove fight scene, that was fun). So overall his average is a lot higher than hers.

He also has good friend chemistry with everyone he's supposed to, good family chemistry with Moira, and even excellent antagonist chemistry with the major villains (except RAG, of course). I can't remember KC having good chemistry with anyone, friend, foe, or family, except for most people, PB (I also find that overrated and forced, but that's just me).

Edited May 16, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[thegirlsleuth]

12 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I thought SA had fine chemistry with all his love interests EXCEPT KC. I'm not saying it was scorching, but overall for me he was fine with every other LI, from Helena through Sara. Also, KC was overall fairly crappy in the role from minute 1, whereas SA was mostly pretty good (I thought he took the wooden thing too far early on, but started improving a lot in 1.3, and he was FANTASTIC at the physical stuff from the start). It was MOSTLY bad writing, but she also played LL as so pissy and snide, but also kind of prim (she did this snotty little superior pursed-lip thing a lot early on), that she was a fail, in both writing and acting, from day 1. Plus, even though she wasn't supposed to be Black Canary until later (even in the original plan), she was always going to suck at that. 

I think Stephen's chemistry was solid with everyone except KC and Poppy, and in those two cases it was a black hole.  For me, Katie's acting isn't bad, but she lacks warmth, and doesn't encourage empathy/sympathy from me.  Caity's Sara was a trained assassin who ran off with her sister's boyfriend, and still I just wanted to feed her soup and tell her things will get better.  

I know you'll appreciate this @AyChihuahua but I thought Katie had really nice chemistry with Brandon Routh. 

[Angel12d]

I'd agree with the sentiments here. I thought SA had pretty good chemistry with most of his love interests. EBR can't be beaten, IMO, but the chemistry with Helena was good too. I thought the kiss/sex scene with Sara/CL was pretty hot but I felt the rest of the time they had more friendship chemistry. Still good though.

Agree with @wonderwall, the whole thing with McKenna was a bit bland but not outright terrible. It's mostly with KC and the actress who plays #Poppy, although I don't think the anti-chemistry with KC can be beaten tbh. Yikes.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Angel12d

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'd agree with the sentiments here. I thought SA had pretty good chemistry with all of his love interests. EBR can't be beaten, IMO, but the chemistry with Helena was good too. I thought the kiss/sex scene with Sara/CL was pretty hot but I felt the rest of the time they had more friendship chemistry. Still good though.

Agree with @wonderwall, the whole thing with McKenna was a bit bland but not outright terrible. It's mostly with KC and the actress who plays #Poppy, although I don't think the anti-chemistry with KC can be beaten tbh. Yikes.

Oh yeah if I were to put it in categories:

Best romantic chemistry: EBR
Best sexual chemistry: CL

In the end, I prefer romantic chemistry over sexual chemistry for my OTPs. Although both couldn't hurt! EBR/SA have a bit of the sexual chemistry, but not as much as SA/CL. 

[AyChihuahua]

11 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think Stephen's chemistry was solid with everyone except KC and Poppy, and in those two cases it was a black hole.  For me, Katie's acting isn't bad, but she lacks warmth, and doesn't encourage empathy/sympathy from me.  Caity's Sara was a trained assassin who ran off with her sister's boyfriend, and still I just wanted to feed her soup and tell her things will get better.  

I know you'll appreciate this @AyChihuahua but I thought Katie had really nice chemistry with Brandon Routh. 

I literally forgot about Poppy. 

I heard KC was surprisingly good with BR. That's in the run of episodes from 3.10-3.22 that I haven't and won't watch.

[Angel12d]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Oh yeah if I were to put it in categories:

Best romantic chemistry: EBR
Best sexual chemistry: CL

In the end, I prefer romantic chemistry over sexual chemistry for my OTPs. Although both couldn't hurt! EBR/SA have a bit of the sexual chemistry, but not as much as SA/CL. 

Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. It totally works with their characters/relationships too because I can see why O/S fell back into a sexual relationship the way they did in s2. And O/F's love scene in s3 was emotional and loving rather than outright sexual because their relationship was so much more. Works for me.

Edit to add: I feel like SA and EBR could have more sexual chemistry if they were given a chance to play on that tension more? There were plenty of times when I noticed their sexual tension so it's definitely there but their relationship went more to the emotional bond than their attraction for each other, which I appreciate more anyway.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Angel12d

[TimetravellingBW]

42 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I thought the Helena actress was not great, but improved, is totally gorgeous, and agreed, they had fine chemistry. He also had fine chemistry with the Isabel actress. Whereas I have always thought KC's chemistry with Colin is massively overrated...it was really only okay in comparison to the anti-chem with SA, and you could pretty much SEE Colin working to get anything. She also had crappy chem with the Blood guy, and the shiny boxer guy (who, tbf, was IMO TERRIBLE...except for the one boxing glove fight scene, that was fun). So overall his average is a lot higher than hers.

 

31 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I think Stephen's chemistry was solid with everyone except KC and Poppy, and in those two cases it was a black hole.  For me, Katie's acting isn't bad, but she lacks warmth, and doesn't encourage empathy/sympathy from me.  Caity's Sara was a trained assassin who ran off with her sister's boyfriend, and still I just wanted to feed her soup and tell her things will get better.  

I know you'll appreciate this @AyChihuahua but I thought Katie had really nice chemistry with Brandon Routh. 

SA has more than proven he has chemistry with most people, so he's definitely not hampered by his failure with KC.

I agree that KC had good chemistry with Brandon Routh and Colin. I think the T/L relationship and chemistry was partly so popular because of the anti-chem of O/L, but imo they were still pretty good on their own merits and one of the only times I actively liked Laurel. Whether that was because Colin worked so hard or KC was putting in more effort back in S1 or they just clicked.  Couldn't see any chemistry with Ted Grant's actor which was bizarre because you think the show would have done a zillion screen tests with KC's potential love interests to make sure they didn't repeat the same mistake twice.

Chemistry aside, I think Laurel worked better with upbeat, outgoing, high-energy characters - like Tommy, Ray and Cisco. They balanced out her haughtiness and softened KC's reserve. Which of course means, Oliver-you-need-a-crowbar-to-break-open-my-feelings Queen was the worst possible dynamic for her.

@AyChihuahua, with you on KC's chemistry with PB being overrated. Their whole relationship was still seeped in bitterness and conflict - like most of Laurel's relationships. (The writers managed to put her at odds with most characters, almost all the time - which was a recipe to make LL unlikable.)  PB was just a strong enough actor to sell his fatherly love for Laurel. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[NumberCruncher]

12 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. It totally works with their characters/relationships too because I can see why O/S fell back into a sexual relationship the way they did in s2. And O/F's love scene in s3 was emotional and loving rather than outright sexual because their relationship was so much more. Works for me.

Edit to add: I feel like SA and EBR could have more sexual chemistry if they were given a chance to play on that tension more? There were plenty of times when I noticed their sexual tension so it's definitely there but their relationship went more to the emotional bond than their attraction for each other, which I appreciate more anyway.

^This.  I don't think SA/EBR lack sexual chemistry because I look back on that S2 scene when Felicity finds the stolen weapons and calls him "Mr. Queen" and it totally looks like Oliver wants to jump her bones, heh.  I just don't think that TPTB saw the Olicity thing as being the same as all of Oliver's other liaisons.  I think that's why MG said long ago that the O/F thing seemed like love, not lust.  I personally love that Oliver had a pure affection for Felicity long before he realized it was something more.  That's what I think sets her apart from every other sexual partner he had (including Sara).  It makes that relationship far richer than all others, IMO.

[Mellowyellow]

Speaking of chemistry when do you think Oliver started seeing Felicity "that way"?

I watched everything knowing what would happen but in season 2, the episode where he gives her "because of the life I live" speech he seemed awfully guilty and upset, like he had cheated on her and was apologising. Awfully fishy for 2 people who are supposed to be friends only. 

I've always found Felicity and Oliver (from season 2 onwards) to have this tense, complicated, unspoken, epic kind of vibe. Then the flip side was that they were supposed to be just friends. It made my little heart squee because it was both tense and joyful at the same time.  Something I imagine they were trying to go for with Laurel in season 1 but that was all kind of icky because of the sister swapping and the fact that she was scowling at him all the time. 

[Angel12d]

9 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

^This.  I don't think SA/EBR lack sexual chemistry because I look back on that S2 scene when Felicity finds the stolen weapons and calls him "Mr. Queen" and it totally looks like Oliver wants to jump her bones, heh.  I just don't think that TPTB saw the Olicity thing as being the same as all of Oliver's other liaisons.  I think that's why MG said long ago that the O/F thing seemed like love, not lust.  I personally love that Oliver had a pure affection for Felicity long before he realized it was something more.  That's what I think sets her apart from every other sexual partner he had (including Sara).  It makes that relationship far richer than all others, IMO.

Yes, that "Mr Queen" scene in particular comes to mind. I thought some of their very early scenes had pretty flirty chemistry, especially when I re-watch now. "Is that your way of saying you miss me?" "No but if it works for you, go with it." I also thought the scene where she tells him to pull his head out of his ass in 210(?) had some sexual chemistry too. So it's definitely there.

But I agree, I think with the way SA and EBR played the characters and how they bounced off each other, it evolved beyond lust and attraction and became something incredibly emotional and loving, probably without even realizing at first, and definitely sets them apart from everyone else. One of the reasons I love them.

 

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Speaking of chemistry when do you think Oliver started seeing Felicity "that way"?

I watched everything knowing what would happen but in season 2, the episode where he gives her "because of the life I live" speech he seemed awfully guilty and upset, like he had cheated on her and was apologising. Awfully fishy for 2 people who are supposed to be friends only. 

I think he was probably always attracted to her. He definitely gave her a 'look' when he first saw her in that gold dress in s1. But IMO their bond strengthened in s2. The way he looked at Felicity when she saw Isabel walking out of his hotel room said it all to me. He was pretty affected by her seeing that and if he didn't have feelings for her already, why would he care what she thought about him having a one night stand? 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Angel12d

[TimetravellingBW]

I think Oliver's 2x06 "because of the life that I lead" speech, was the first time he consciously acknowledged his possible feelings for Felicity - both to himself and to her.

In S1 I think he found her attractive and liked her as a friend, but was burned by Helena/Mckenna and wrapped up in the idea of LL. She was kinda just the tech girl he trusted and had to protect.

In S2, once he'd got over the LL idea, Felicity/Diggle risked everything to get him from the island, they rebuilt Team Arrow together, he actively made her part of his life as his PA - I think that's when genuine romantic feelings began to grow. But they grew very slowly and mostly subconsciously tbh. He totally shoved them down, told himself no and basically went into denial.

But the whole situation with Isabel and how he hurt Felicity forced him to acknowledge that there was something there, and he had to consciously address it and articulate his decision not to get into a meaningful relationship [...that could be with her.] From then on I think he was more aware of his feelings. As seen in the shooting the Count in 2x07.

Urgh, I'm just bummed we missed out on more of that simmering tension stage between S2 and S3 :/

Edited May 16, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Angel12d]

5 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Urgh, I'm just bummed we missed out on more of that simmering tension stage between S2 and S3 :/

One of the biggest mistakes they made was not showing the change between s2 and s3. Think of all the flirting and heart eyes and ugh. 

[thegirlsleuth]

This conversation reminds me of the Jennifer Crusie article from last year on the failure of "The Girl", the one true chosen girlfriend, and how show's adjust the love stories or fix the characters. Interesting, the superficial changes she identifies as not working are on Flash (Iris) and Arrow (Laurel).  It's fun but a bit long, but for me its worth it for the first meme.  It has this great section on Laurel:

"The poster Girl for this failed trope is Arrow’s Laurel Lance, The Girl the Green Arrow was destined to marry except the audience said, “Oh, just no.” Laurel had the added burden of being riddled with bitterness and recrimination, stripping out all the softness and supportive gazes that serve the hero so well, and that pretty much left her not only useless but toxic."

http://arghink.com/2015/11/theres-a-new-girl-in-town/

When people critique the Oliver/Felicity relationship, they often reference how they think she was in love/attracted to him, but he didn't care about her, and the showrunners shouldn't have tried to force the relationship past the nerd girl pining for the hot guy.  I think the exact opposite.  While I think Felicity appreciated the shirtless guy on the salmon ladder and considered Oliver a true friend, the heart eyes all came from Oliver.  He did flirty in season one, and the looks were starting to get adoring as early as 2.1, when she comes to the Island. 

[wonderwall]

33 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Speaking of chemistry when do you think Oliver started seeing Felicity "that way"?

IMO, I think Oliver started seeing Felicity in this scene:

I didn't notice it then (because I started shipping them in 201), but now, it's as clear as day for me. 

[AyChihuahua]

40 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

^This.  I don't think SA/EBR lack sexual chemistry because I look back on that S2 scene when Felicity finds the stolen weapons and calls him "Mr. Queen" and it totally looks like Oliver wants to jump her bones, heh.  

Exactly the scene I always think of. Abounds with sexual chemistry...I don't know whether it was SA or Oliver, but whoever it was wanted to bang the holy hell out of Felicity right then.

[lemotomato]

All this discussion makes me want to go through tumblr looking for season 2A Olicity gifs. Most of my favorite moments are from back then. 

Also, while there may be debate over when Oliver fell in love with Felicity and vice versa, I think the moment the show picked its OTP was when she helped him put his mask on for the first time in 209. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by lemotomato

[TimetravellingBW]

Tbh, the events between s2 and s3 would have made a better story than s3. I don't get why the writers rushed the Oliver/Felicity development, shows and couples can survive years off simmering sexual tension and Will They Or Won't They. (Gilmore Girls, Castle etc. - Although how they handle the couple afterwards is a different matter.) 

Oliver/Felicity throughout S2 were very ambiguous in their feelings: Fans of their relationship could see things building, but it was all complicated with how intense Oliver was about Laurel in S1 and the Oliver/Sara relationship. I remember people weren't sure if the shippy Olicity moments were going anywhere or just throwing fans a bone. Plus would they really deviate from the comics? No one was sure what was going on. Which the writers knew because because the 'I Love You' in the finale was meant to be a shock! 

After S2 the writers should have spent another season or half season, showing Felicity and Oliver unambiguously liking each other, playing on the unresolved sexual tension, flirting, have Oliver slowly confess to Dig/Thea that maybe his ILY was real, have Felicity chat to Dig/Thea that she likes Oliver, have almost-confession moments and win over fans who didn't expect Olicity. Build until fans are screaming "just kiss her already!" You don't need other love interests or drama, just have regular cute Olicity moment s - Oliver's hesitancy and their lifestyle is a built in excuse of why neither of them will make a move. Instead we got twenty minutes of flirting, Oliver and Diggle hand-waving the much debated "ILY" confession with "of course you love her man" and then a date/kiss/love confession that should have come at the middle or end of a season, not the beginning. Then a whole season of angst "we can't be together" that wasn't justified by ship tease way back in the first half of Season 2 and one date.

That's why I don't totally blame fans for saying Olicity lacked build up - to an extent. There were some hints, but the writers kept it ambiguous deliberately and then turned around and went full "they're 100% in love. OBVIOUSLY." It's just dumb. Olicity fans would have enjoyed more flirting and unresolved sexual tension, unsure fans and anti-Olicity would at least have seen the signs and have less justification for saying it came out of nowhere. And if the writers did go down the angsty, Oliver-can't-be-with-her S3 spiel: It would be way more impactful if we'd seen their feelings grow.  E.g. Imagine if Olicity's first kiss had been before he went off to die for Thea in the mid S3 finale.

Olicity was so great during the unresolved sexual tension stage of the first half of Season 2. Why wouldn't the writers do more of that? 

(Also, if the writers waited longer until Oliver/Felicity got together and not jumped to the engagement stage by the beginning of Season 4...maybe they wouldn't have used the horrific BMD to break them up and bring into more tension. I'll take "waiting to get together" over "get together and break up" everytime. But they just did everything too fast for Olicity.)

Edited May 17, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Angel12d]

33 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

When people critique the Oliver/Felicity relationship, they often reference how they think she was in love/attracted to him, but he didn't care about her, and the showrunners shouldn't have tried to force the relationship past the nerd girl pining for the hot guy.  I think the exact opposite.  While I think Felicity appreciated the shirtless guy on the salmon ladder and considered Oliver a true friend, the heart eyes all came from Oliver.  He did flirty in season one, and the looks were starting to get adoring as early as 2.1, when she comes to the Island. 

Agreed. I mean, not that it really matters but I've always thought Oliver fell in love with Felicity first. Oliver loves very easily which is pretty amazing for someone who has been through what he has, although I do think this is the first time Oliver really truly and completely fell in love. Not to say he didn't love anyone else but I think with Felicity it's another level.

Felicity, on the other hand, clearly protects her heart more and has lot of barriers/wariness about letting someone in emotionally because she's been hurt before. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Angel12d

[wonderwall]

11 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

All this discussion makes me want to go through tumblr looking for season 2A Olicity gifs. Most of my favorite moments are from back then. 

OOOOOOH all my favorite moments are in this post that I made awhile back:

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

More specifically:

 

 

 

 

I may have gone overboard. But vintage Olicity is the best

Edited May 17, 2016 by wonderwall

[Angel12d]

Ugh, his face when Felicity tells him he deserves better than Isabel. She just wrecked him. I love it so much.

And that scene where Diggle and Felicity found him after he didn't show up to Moira's funeral, I remember thinking OMG he's gonna kiss her. He so wanted to kiss her.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Angel12d

[catrox14]

Dammit @wonderwall, you got me all floopy now. LOL

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I may have gone overboard. But vintage Olicity is the best

No such thing as going overboard, as far as I'm concerned :) And yes, Vintage Olicity is the best Olicity. Look at those hearteyes!

[TimetravellingBW]

So many hearteyes. Right in the feels :/

[hogwash]

Darn S03 for doing nothing with all that beautiful S02 buildup!

[Angel12d]

And let's not forget how the archer gave his bow to Diggle (the one who can't even use it) just so he could carry Felicity. I mean, what was that?

These two were gold in s2. 

(Sorry I'm stuck staring at those gifs LOL.)

Edited May 17, 2016 by Angel12d

[thegirlsleuth]

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, Wonderwall!  I remember being convinced they were going to kiss in the scene that happened in the alternative Arrow cave right after Moira's funeral.  I always laugh at the scene where he carries her when she's unconcious after the car crash because a) he's got an injured leg, and b) Diggle is carrying the bow. 

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Ugh, his face when Felicity tells him he deserves better than Isabel. She just wrecked him. I love it so much.

My favorite moment in that scene actually happened right before, when she got up and walked behind him after "because of the life I lead":

He looks like he knew he just screwed things up on purpose to push her away and it hurts him. That's when I thought Oliver realized he had actual feelings for Felicity.

[NumberCruncher]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Ugh, his face when Felicity tells him he deserves better than Isabel. She just wrecked him. I love it so much.

I've always picked this as the moment he realized he really did love her so I was especially glad when Stephen identified it as the moment as well because obviously I think he's spot on! :P

[catrox14]

OMG State vs Queen that was when I was 100% convinced Oliver was in love with Felicity. He broke his no kill rule for her. And it wasn't just him being a hero. He put his bow down and the second Vertigo moved he did not hesitate.

HALP Just seeing those scenes....I'm swooning all over again.

Edited May 17, 2016 by catrox14

[Thundercatmary]

You know I may be able to forgive the writers for the baby momma drek if we get to see Oliver/Felicity build up for real in season 4a. I mean I could see Felicity agreeing to try again but take it slow and ofc Oliver has to convince her etc, I could see possibilities for some cute moments.

[Starfish35]

I always thought SA had chemistry with everyone but KC.  And now Poppy.  With Poppy, though, it's just kind of non-existent, but with KC it actually felt like anti-chemistry, if there is such a thing.  Lol.  

KC....it's hard for me to really be sure what I thought about her chemistry with CD, because as others have pointed out, it was being contrasted against the complete lack thereof with SA.  But I've never really thought she had chemistry with most of the rest of the cast.  PB....it depends on the scene.  Some of them are very good, but it's also hard not to contrast their scenes with PB's with CL, which always sparkle.  

I actually think the two people KC had the most chemistry with are CL and KL.  But even there, when she was playing against KL in Restoration, there was just nothing.  I don't know what was going on with her in that episode, but I don't know that I've ever seen her more robot-like.  

About Olicity....State vs Queen was the closest I ever came to shipping them, I think.  There was that moment where he goes and kneels down by her on the floor - I don't know what it was about that moment.  

I've often tried to put my finger on just why it is that I don't ship them (although I'm not anti-Olicity).  I do think, for me personally, skipping over that summer of build up is at least one of the reasons.  It wasn't that I didn't see the tease beforehand, but I guess maybe even until SDCC 2014, I still believed that's all it was.  If they hadn't jumped from date to "breakup" in one episode...even if they had kept that relationship going for awhile in season three before tearing it apart, I think it might have worked better for me personally, that I might have been able to invest in it emotionally before they brought the drama.  *shrug*  I don't know.  Just some idle thoughts.

[Thundercatmary]

Sometimes I do wonder if they purposely skip over some of the relationship stuff in order to placate the people who hate realtionships on the show, I think it's unwise to do that but maybe it's a factor.

[TimetravellingBW]

9 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

About Olicity....State vs Queen was the closest I ever came to shipping them, I think.  There was that moment where he goes and kneels down by her on the floor - I don't know what it was about that moment.  

I've often tried to put my finger on just why it is that I don't ship them (although I'm not anti-Olicity).  I do think, for me personally, skipping over that summer of build up is at least one of the reasons.  It wasn't that I didn't see the tease beforehand, but I guess maybe even until SDCC 2014, I still believed that's all it was.  If they hadn't jumped from date to "breakup" in one episode...even if they had kept that relationship going for awhile in season three before tearing it apart, I think it might have worked better for me personally, that I might have been able to invest in it emotionally before they brought the drama.  *shrug*  I don't know.  Just some idle thoughts.

All of this. Basically exactly where I'm at with Olicity. I lowkey shipped them during Season 2 (those gifs definitely break me) but didn't really believe they'd happen. Or if they did, only as a pit stop to the Laurel/Oliver end game. Then during Season 3, I wanted to ship them but the sudden switch without build up and drama meant I just wasn't invested personally. I think objectively - given SA and EBR's chemistry, that Olicity does have a better backstory than any of Oliver's other love interests and that Felicity will always be around in the lair - Olicity is the best pair for Oliver. But they still could have told it a lot better. And I dislike how Felicity's character is taking the most hits to facilitate the romance. (I'm on her side in the BMD, but the whole anti-Felicity movement really depresses me.)  

I just wish the writers realized Felicity and Olicity aren't indestructible and if they keep writing terrible melodrama, it will come back to bite them. And consider that Olicity was a fan-preferred couple because they were low-key and drama-free, rather than angsty. Sure SA and EBR's chemistry helps a lot, but it can't save everything if the writers are stuck on writing Lauriver 2.0

Edited May 17, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Sometimes I do wonder if they purposely skip over some of the relationship stuff in order to placate the people who hate realtionships on the show, I think it's unwise to do that but maybe it's a factor.

I would think that if romantic relationships were the only things this show was lazy about, but they aren't. 

[NumberCruncher]

21 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Sometimes I do wonder if they purposely skip over some of the relationship stuff in order to placate the people who hate realtionships on the show, I think it's unwise to do that but maybe it's a factor.

I think that's exactly why.  They're trying to keep their male demo.  That's not to say that there aren't men who appreciate relationships on TV but for the most part they don't really go for romantic content.

[TimetravellingBW]

5 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

I think that's exactly why.  They're trying to keep their male demo.  That's not to say that there aren't men who appreciate relationships on TV but for the most part they don't really go for romantic content.

That makes me wonder why they skip the flirty/slow burn stuff and focus on the angst/break up stuff instead. Does their male demo enjoy that? I think it's partly they are trying to downplay the romance and partly Arrow's tendency to rush through all plots and relationships.

[TimetravellingBW]

2 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

When people critique the Oliver/Felicity relationship, they often reference how they think she was in love/attracted to him, but he didn't care about her, and the showrunners shouldn't have tried to force the relationship past the nerd girl pining for the hot guy.  I think the exact opposite.  While I think Felicity appreciated the shirtless guy on the salmon ladder and considered Oliver a true friend, the heart eyes all came from Oliver.  He did flirty in season one, and the looks were starting to get adoring as early as 2.1, when she comes to the Island. 

 

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

Agreed. I mean, not that it really matters but I've always thought Oliver fell in love with Felicity first. Oliver loves very easily which is pretty amazing for someone who has been through what he has, although I do think this is the first time Oliver really truly and completely fell in love. Not to say he didn't love anyone else but I think with Felicity it's another level.

Felicity, on the other hand, clearly protects her heart more and has lot of barriers/wariness about letting someone in emotionally because she's been hurt before. 

Agreed. S1 played a bit with Felicity ogling Oliver when he was working out and her sexual innuendos. But it never read as pining so much as just appreciating some eye candy. The babbling and humor is part of her character. Just because Felicity is characterized as a little awkward and geeky doesn't mean she automatically fits into the "nerd pines for guy out of her league." That's projecting pre-established tropes and expectations onto her. (And kind of urgh, to assume a smart girl must feel inferior to a hot guy.) The only evidence I can think of that supports that view is the S1 exchange with "gorgeous Laurel/oh me I'm no one" and her S2 Barry comment about "a guy finally notices me and now he's in a coma." 

If anything, Felicity has been characterized as refusing to pine and refusing to put up with behavior she doesn't find acceptable. Telling Oliver he can't just make her his PA. Calling him out for sleeping with Isabel not out of bitterness, but because he can do better. Making it clear she was insecure because of Sara's skills not her relationship with Oliver. Telling Oliver "not to dangle maybes." Moving onto Ray when Oliver said no. Breaking up with Oliver because of the BMD. So, nope - pining nerd girl is the last thing Felicity has been. (Also: It's hard to write that list and not compare it with Laurel pining after Oliver for years even after he's treated her so horribly :/ Even though Laurel is viewed as the more "tough, independent woman")

Edited May 17, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[ohjoy]

34 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I just wish the writers were realized Felicity and Olicity aren't indestructible and if they keep writing terrible melodrama, it will come back to bite them. And consider that Olicity was a fan-preferred couple because they were low-key and drama-free, rather than like angsty. Sure SA and EBR's chemistry helps a lot, but it can't save everything if the writers are stuck on writing Lauriver 2.0

THIS, especially the bolded parts. I have only a couple of friends who watch this show, and but since they did not immediately see Felicity and Olicity the way I saw it, they've become increasingly annoyed with the relationship (and Felicity herself) due the increasing amount of manufactured angst where there used to be to be a refreshing reprieve from angst. I've basically had to start avoiding the show as a topic of discussion.

I think the black hole of chemistry between SA/KC somewhat blinded the writers and showrunners to the fact that the manufactured angst they had planned for their main ship was not a good draw, and in fact was a deterrent, especially considering the personality of character they used to replace one of the key players in that plan.

[NumberCruncher]

25 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

That makes me wonder why they skip the flirty/slow burn stuff and focus on the angst/break up stuff instead. Does their male demo enjoy that? I think it's partly they are trying to downplay the romance and partly Arrow's tendency to rush through all plots and relationships.

Because in their minds drama and angst = good TV.  They so love to portray their show as dark so that they can make their little version of pseudo-Batman.  I don't think they throw the angsty stuff in because they think it's lovey-dovey romantic.  They throw it in because it has to fit the "edgy", sad bastard narrative they've been telling for 4 years.

[Thundercatmary]

I do hope they've realize how badly recieved the nby mama drama was and hopefully they remember that going forward.

[lemotomato]

41 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

That makes me wonder why they skip the flirty/slow burn stuff and focus on the angst/break up stuff instead. Does their male demo enjoy that? I think it's partly they are trying to downplay the romance and partly Arrow's tendency to rush through all plots and relationships.

They skipped the flirty/slow burn stuff because once they picked Olicity as the show's OTP (I hate the term "endgame") the Arrow writers started treating Olicity as though it were a comic-based romance. Comic canon romances let the TV writers skip all the steps of establishing the couple on screen because the audience is supposed to know that they're destined to be together (See: Oliver/Laurel and Barry/Iris on Flash). All that's left for the writers to do is to keep throwing problems at them, breaking them up and getting them back together while taking up the least screentime possible.

The problem with this writing method is that it's completely unsuitable for Olicity, because a) No one assumes they will be endgame, since they don't have Because Comics history to fall back on, so they should have gotten more establishing moments before the drama kicked in and b) Felicity isn't the typical superhero love interest, who usually isn't directly involved in his mission. Since she's a part of the day-to-day superhero-ing, any romantic drama affects the main storyline too and is magnified, leading to accusations that "Olicity is taking over the show". It's a problem I'm afraid will not go away, since the writers/EPs seem to be repeating their mistakes from season 3 in 4B. Either they didn't learn their lesson or they're just incapable of writing/planning for a couple that developed organically.

Edited May 17, 2016 by lemotomato

[Angel12d]

I think they skipped the flirty build up because they wanted Oliver in a certain mindset in s3 where he felt he had nothing, and that includes Felicity. He couldn't have been all 'I'm gonna die down here' if he was flirting with Felicity. I get why they did it for their season plan. I wish they hadn't though. I think there could have been better ways to stall Olicity without making them bitter. 

Also, if you remove the baby mama crap, I thought Olicity were great this season. They work best when they're flirty and friends, both supporting each other. They don't work with angst. That's not their dynamic, it's not SA's and EBR's chemistry either. 

[way2interested]

Just now, Thundercatmary said:

I do hope they've realize how badly recieved the nby mama drama was and hopefully they remember that going forward.

Part of me thinks they have in a way, since they have kind of been writing away towards that angst in general since 408. 409-413 barely referenced the kid (although that was probably accidentally, since those episodes were written/shot by then, but at least shows that the general writers' room seemed to not be too eager to set up for that plot). 414, filmed after 408, had a whole scene dedicated to (kind of unsuccessfully) defending Oliver's decision, since the biggest complaint seemed to be how awful and ludicrous his actions were. 415 had Felicity not yell at him at all or sidetrack him from the mission before ultimately breaking things with him, since one other major complaint was how quickly and slightly outlandish Felicity acted in finding out Oliver's secret. 416 was used to immediately remind everyone how much Oliver and Felicity actually loved each other. 417 on (aside from the beginning of the flashforward scene) have actually had Oliver and Felicity on amicable (and even in 420's case, kind of flirty) terms to push the two through their reconciliation phase.

To me, they seem to just want Oliver and Felicity back onto the friendly/almost couple terms as well and that they realize how kind of unfavorable and messy this has been, but the fact remains that they did this in the first place and this gives no confirmation that they wouldn't have done something else just as convoluted to break them up instead. Although I do have to wonder what the network had to say about all of this going forward.   

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I really really hope the network or affiliates or studio or Berlanti or SOMEONE neg the hell out of bringing ANY of that crap back. I don't want the moron kid, I don't want his horrible lying hag of a mother, I don't want a mention of them, I don't want Oliver looking sadly at some presumably non-moronic similarly-aged boy and sighing dramatically. NONE OF IT. Move forward as if none of that ever happened and I will be quite happy.

I really did enjoy that after all that bullshit about how INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT this dumb kid, who Oliver barely even knew, was to Oliver, that he wasn't so much as glimpsed in the sad times montage. Just love that. Now don't put the kid playing with his dollies in the happy times montage, please.

[hogwash]

It's funny that the big death and the big breakup got built up for several episodes and both sucked.

Edited May 17, 2016 by hogwash
missing word

[Password]

Well at least the death was somewhat amusing (to me). The baby mama drama and break up made me want to throw things. 

[MariaHill]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

...some presumably non-moronic similarly-aged boy

Sorry, this just made me laugh. Aside from the story fail, that was some *dreadful* casting. You can't tell me there wasn't at least one cute kid with reasonably animated facial expressions in all of Vancouver? C'mon. 

[looptab]

4 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, Wonderwall!  I remember being convinced they were going to kiss in the scene that happened in the alternative Arrow cave right after Moira's funeral.  

I thought they were going to kiss there, and then in the clocktower after the "You are not alone, and I believe in you" scene. They played me!

4 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I may have gone overboard. But vintage Olicity is the best

These two are probably my favorite scenes, and not just in terms of content, but also the visual, the angst and the heart eyes. I might just like their profiles, haha. Plus the coffee scene. Always the coffee scene. :)

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I've often tried to put my finger on just why it is that I don't ship them (although I'm not anti-Olicity).  

I remember you saying at some point this season, "If they keep writing them like this, I might start shipping them"..and then BMD happened. I won't forgive them if only for that reason! :P

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Now don't put the kid playing with his dollies in the happy times montage, please.

I hadn't even thought about that, but I think you can count on it.It'll be the moment when for some reason the kid started hitting Oliver's hand instead of Captain Cold's action figure.

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, looptab said:

I remember you saying at some point this season, "If they keep writing them like this, I might start shipping them"..and then BMD happened. I won't forgive them if only for that reason! :P

Lol.  I'd forgotten that.  Yeah I'm a sucker for cute non-drama couples.  And they had some cute moments at the beginning of the season (I particularly liked their sort-of-fight about her helping the team).  But I have to be pretty seriously invested in a pairing to put up with the drama.