Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tarotx]

Unfortunately that what if was never a part of the 5 year plan. Although tptb seem so over them as well.

[statsgirl]

But then we wouldn't get those wonder parallels with Oliver/Felicity and Oliver/Poppy!

 

Yeah, Oliver would still have the secret-keeping and trust issues with Laurel. But he would also have the "I lie because I don't want to let you in" ones that he doesn't with Felicity.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I was thinking yesterday that I'm so glad that they show is not on CBS. On shows like NCIS and Criminal Minds, they will tease a couple for years (8 in the case of Tony and Ziva) and never put them together even when one of the characters leaves the show. So yay for Arrow putting Oliver and Felicity together at the end of season 3, instead of waiting seven seasons and then only putting them together because she got pregnant. Or like Sleepy Hollow, which works primarily on the chemistry of the leads and tanked in s2 when they wrote against it, so of course at the end of s3 they put them into new relationships with other characters.

 

The difference between Arrow and shows such as NCIS or Criminal Minds is that any relationship on the latter shows is secondary to the procedural aspect of it. The main thrust of those shows is solving crimes, Arrow is about the evolution of a hero, one that the writers, from the onset, has tied heavily to the love of one woman. So Arrow was definitely going to move the relationship faster than the shows you've mentioned. But yes, I am stunned that we're dealing with weddings in Season 4. Arrow has put Oliver & Felicity together and, despite the breakup, rather definitely in only 3 seasons. It seems entirely possible now that Oliver & Felicity will actually be married sooner rather than later.

[statsgirl]

Oh, I agree that the CBS shows are procedural rather than a hero evolution but that's a choice CBS makes on how they want their shows to be.  I have the sneaking feeling that if Arrow were on CBS, it too would be procedural with VotWs and a season's Big Bad, and any love interest would either be on again/off again or off screen and only hinted at, which is why I'm glad Arrow is on a network known for it's "soap operas"..  Even on Law & Order, Jill Hennessy didn't know that her character was supposed to be in a relationship with Sam Waterston's until the episode in which she died.

[BkWurm1]

Oh, I agree that the CBS shows are procedural rather than a hero evolution but that's a choice CBS makes on how they want their shows to be.  I have the sneaking feeling that if Arrow were on CBS, it too would be procedural with VotWs and a season's Big Bad, and any love interest would either be on again/off again or off screen and only hinted at, which is why I'm glad Arrow is on a network known for it's "soap operas"..  Even on Law & Order, Jill Hennessy didn't know that her character was supposed to be in a relationship with Sam Waterston's until the episode in which she died.

I've learned that I can't handle watching strict procedurals because at the end of each episode they basically want to be able to hit the reset button and keep everything superficially the same.  Take NCIS.  The only thing that ever shakes up the main cast is when and actor decides to leave. Otherwise even if they kill off five girlfriends in a row, the character remains static.  (I am pretty sure I'm exaggerating but if doesn't feel like it)  It's just too fake and sanitary environment for me. 

 

If Arrow had been on CBS, Oliver would only have relationships with guest stars and Felicity would have gotten frumpier and frumpier and then started dating an equally nerdy boy (probably Barry but he'd always be on another show and only referenced occasionally).  William probably would have been handled exactly the same but Oliver would just break up with the woman de jour. 

[tv echo]

In response to a Merlance question posted somewhere above, here's the 2012 interview where KC talked about Tommy taking advantage...

What attracts her to Tommy Merlyn?
CASSIDY: I think Tommy was there for her when Oliver disappeared.  It affected both of them and it was a huge loss and they sort of leaned on each other as a shoulder to lean on.  I think when they grew up together it was the three of them.  He was the best friend.  Once Tommy disappeared, she looked to him and he was there, he took advantage, but he was there.  He’ll never be Oliver to her, nobody will ever be Oliver but Oliver.  I think there were a few nights, maybe they were romantically involved, but for Laurel I don’t think it was ever anything too serious.

Comic-Con: Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy Talk ARROW, Playing a Superhero, and the Possibility of Black Canary
BY CARISSA PAVLICA      JULY 15, 2012
http://collider.com/comic-con-stephen-amell-and-katie-cassidy-talk-arrow-playing-a-superhero-and-the-possibility-of-black-canary/

Edited March 29, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

I think this was partially caused by the fact that people didn't respond to Oliver's "dilemma" in 4.08 the way they thought people would.  I  really think they expected viewers to say "Poor Oliver! Forced to keep a secret to see his son!" when the universal response was "Screw baby mama.  Oliver should tell Felicity.  She can keep a secret."  Since then they have bent over backwards to make Oliver the good guy.  I thought it was telling that they never had Oliver lie on screen about it--he was clearly visiting the child, and would have had to lie to his wheelchair-bound fiance to do it, but other than vague mentions after the fact of "visits to Central City" there was no "Hey Felicity!  I have to go to CC to visit Cisco about suit upgrades!" In addition, having Thea and Diggle endorse his decision puts him in the right.  Finally, Felicity objecting to him cutting her out of decision rather than him lying is a way of her character co-signing the lie as well. 

Sometimes I feel like I have a very unique perspective in this fandom. I understood why he lied to/withheld info from FS. I was sympathetic to his dilemma. In many ways I was the target section of the audience MG was probably hoping to reach. So for me the lie was never what was going to break them up. FS has co-signed a lot of his lies in the past & present. Regardless, the break-up still would have happened because OQ still would have behaved the same way after the kidnapping even if FS was in on the secret. By the end of 415, he could have included FS. He chose not to - it wasn't just the lie that caused the break it was his overall choices regarding secret kid.

 

Also for me, breaking a promise to someone for another person might have removed the lie, but it still would have been a character regression because he should not be making promises he intends to break even if the other person perhaps is not quite as deserving. So I'm glad he did not break his promise to BM, because then he would have had to fix that broken promise and frankly the less I see BM the better.

 

I like FS, but she is not my favorite character. And there are many writers on the team that write her better than others. But sometimes, I do find the way they all write her makes her vulnerable for criticism & attacks. That being said, I feel annoyed that they threw her under the bus and used her as their get out of jail free card when their plot flopped. I feel like she deserved more of a POV. She was sacrificed to make their crappy plot work and that is just frustrating. So I can only imagine what FS lovers & haters are feeling. After OQ sent his son away in 415 without including or even talking to FS, there was no way for the couple to proceed together without some solid time apart. However, multiple episodes ending with FS walking out on OQ and then TA in multiple seasons is not a good look even if I believe that she was 100% right to walk away from OQ in 415 & 416.

 

I also think if you were going to do a fake wedding for plot purposes. As heartbroken as FS was, it would have been better to have her suggest it because it would have been in character. It also would have balanced the team reaction, instead it looked like FS was the problematic one, when in reality OQ was the problem. And then when she left at the end, it would have shown that she is still heroic but its just not a good situation to do her heroic deeds on TA. That she was going to find another way to help people.

Edited March 29, 2016 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I ended up liking it a lot that Oliver was the one who suggested the fake wedding, because it had a larger narrative purpose -- Oliver truly believed this was fixable, so much so that [he listened to the bullcrap Diggle was feeding him, and] he used the opportunity to try and use words to convince Felicity to give him another chance.

 

It's funny that I want Oliver to make a grand gesture later on, but this was already a grand gesture. The fact that he said his real vows, and that he made promises not to lie again -- that was all very grand. But it came from a misinformed place, because of his wrong assumption that he could fix it with words. But he can't, because the fix here is with change in behavior.

 

I also really liked it that they played it like a comedy of errors -- Felicity was wrong to want to go about everything business as usual, Oliver was wrong to assume Felicity would come around, and Diggle was wrong [sO WRONG] in his advice to Oliver. They all had best intentions, but ultimately they all failed. Because they were wrong.

Edited March 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

I think it also failed because they assumed that the problem was either that Oliver lied to Felicity (Oliver) or that it was the shock of his having a son (Diggle).  I think the real reason was because he didn't open up to Felilcity; once again, he acted only on his own, like when he wanted to surrender to Slade, or teamed up with Malcolm last season or went undercover with the LoA.   This has been a with him since season 1 when he bailed on Diggle to be Laurel's hero.

 

When pushed into a corner, Oliver lies but that's secondary to refusing to let other people help him.  (Hey, maybe Laurel could have helped you get visitation with William.)  I think the good news is that this is easier to overcome than the tendency to lie as a default.

[dtissagirl]

Imo, the most important line in the entire episode was when Felicity told Oliver over comms that he should let the others help him. That right there was the crux of the entire situation.

 

But maybe that line might have packed more weight if it had come from someone else? I don't know.

[catrox14]

WAY late to the party but I think part of the reason why some fans are irritated and downright angry with Felicity or think she is being mean is because the WRITERS had her bring up Oliver's time on the island in conjunction with why she can't trust him.  It comes across as a low blow. 

 

I LOVE Felicity and that made me go...'rrrrrrhhhrrrr'. It stripped her of her typical empathy especially over the literal most damaging thing Oliver ever went through. Terrible writing or  writing on purpose to make us side with Oliver for...reasons.

 

If they needed to reference Oliver's time on the island and his PTSD and inability to tell the whole truth they could have been more nuanced in the writing that balanced her valid reasons and Oliver going through something he didn't control. 

 

Something like "I love you Oliver but I'm not sure I'll be able to trust you to trust me because you default to lies and not trusting anyone because of your time on the island. And I KNOW it was  horrible and not your fault,  but this lie on top of other lies is too much for me"  

 

It doesn't invalidate her need or his issues and makes neither of them the villain but reminds that Oliver still needs to work on his issues.

[kismet]

I do think that OQ suggesting the wedding served his narrative purposes... I'm not saying him suggesting it did not work or was not a valid narrative usage. It just was not my personal preference. I also don't think the team agreeing to it was that horrible. It did seem the quickest and safest solution to the problem. Also FS has willing put herself in harms way before physically & emotionally. All things considered, this wedding was not the worst idea. And I honestly do not think Dig or TQ have any idea exactly what caused the break-up or how deeply it is hurting FS. So I'm gonna give them a pass until next week, since I think they were just acting & speaking in shock of the news of the break-up. I hope once they hear more about the facts, their support will balance out and not seem to be all about OQ.

 

I also prefer a little but of balance in my storytelling. And as valid as FS's reasons for leaving were, the impression these back to back episodes give is that it is FS who is giving up on the relationship and not OQ who made some pretty big mistakes. Even though it should be OQ on the receiving end, somehow all the blame seems to be visually placed on her. So for me FS suggesting the wedding would have at least balanced out the situation, instead of giving FS another reason to be at odds with the team or OQ. And FS suggesting the wedding might have served her narrative purpose which might have been nice. Her trying to suggest a mission could have been another attempt for her to get back in the swing of things and keep the team normal. 

[Morrigan2575]

Imo, the most important line in the entire episode was when Felicity told Oliver over comms that he should let the others help him. That right there was the crux of the entire situation.

But maybe that line might have packed more weight if it had come from someone else? I don't know.

That one in particular but, I actually thought quite a few of her 'digs' were important to the overall Olicity situation.

[ComicFan777]

Oliver told Diggle that Felicity broke up with him because he lied about his son, so Diggle knows that it is more than just Oliver having a son.

 

I think that having Felicity bring up the idea of the wedding could make Oliver look even more like the kicked puppy.  It can be seen as if she forced him into doing this wedding right after dumping him.  It could make her look insensitive by dangling the what-could-have-been in a fake wedding, especially since he put his heart out there with his pleading vows, I think it could have made her look even worse to the audience.

[ComicFan777]

Imo, the most important line in the entire episode was when Felicity told Oliver over comms that he should let the others help him. That right there was the crux of the entire situation.

 

But maybe that line might have packed more weight if it had come from someone else? I don't know.

 

I do think that the "Let them help you" line sums up the heart of the problem.  I think the timing was poorly chosen though because Oliver ran off while Diggle was busy checking on Thea after she fell off a car after being rammed into a building.  If Oliver waited, then he would have lost Cupid, and somebody needed to make sure Thea was ok.  It wasn't like he was running head-on into HIVE all by himself.  He was going to fight Cupid, which he should definitely be able to handle alone anyways.

Edited March 30, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

When pushed into a corner, Oliver lies but that's secondary to refusing to let other people help him.  (Hey, maybe Laurel could have helped you get visitation with William.)  I think the good news is that this is easier to overcome than the tendency to lie as a default.

He needs to stop lying AND let people in. I can't take him lying to them anymore. Which really is just another way of keeping ppl out, so I guess functionally fixing one will fix both? I hope.

[BkWurm1]

WAY late to the party but I think part of the reason why some fans are irritated and downright angry with Felicity or think she is being mean is because the WRITERS had her bring up Oliver's time on the island in conjunction with why she can't trust him.  It comes across as a low blow.

 

I've heard that a few times but it's so not how I took the line. The island comment wasn't a twisting of the knife, just a IMO a reference point for what was going on.  It felt like a fact, not a dig.  Why would it be a dig after four years of her not blaming him for what he had to do on the island?  It never occurred to me anyone would take it that way. 

 

 

 

I do think that the "Let them help you" line sums up the heart of the problem.  I think the timing was poorly chosen though because Oliver ran off while Diggle was busy checking on Thea after she fell off a car after being rammed into a building.  If Oliver waited, then he would have lost Cupid, and somebody needed to make sure Thea was ok.  It wasn't like he was running head-on into HIVE all by himself.  He was going to fight Cupid, which he should definitely be able to handle alone anyways.

But Thea had already said she was fine.  It was right for Dig to check on her and it was right for Oliver to go on in, but Oliver made them STAY outside when Thea felt ready to keep going and even if Oliver wasn't comfortable trusting Thea's assessment of herself, he should have trusted her to at least be able to wait outside on her own.  Instead, he sidelined them both and went on in on his own, certain he didn't need or want help. 

[nksarmi]

I took the island comment to be Felicity saying the island changed you - made you rely on yourself and keep everyone out.  That's who you are now and I don't expect you to change that.  I just can't be with you because you will do this again - hurt me again and I can't keep doing it.

 

Remember all of last season he told her he loved her but refused to be with her because he couldn't be the Arrow and be with her.  I think that was emotional hell for Felicity.  Some of that had to carry over into this decision as well.  She thought she could have both Oliver and the Arrow and now she feels like she was wrong - she will only ever have part of him, not ALL of him.

[ComicFan777]

But Thea had already said she was fine.  It was right for Dig to check on her and it was right for Oliver to go on in, but Oliver made them STAY outside when Thea felt ready to keep going and even if Oliver wasn't comfortable trusting Thea's assessment of herself, he should have trusted her to at least be able to wait outside on her own.  Instead, he sidelined them both and went on in on his own, certain he didn't need or want help. 

 

I guess I didn't take it as Oliver deliberately stopping them from coming in later.  It felt more like he was concerned about his sister laying in the middle of the street, wanted Diggle to pick Thea up and make sure she is ok, but he went ahead because he didn't want to lose Cupid either.  It felt more urgent situation rather than decisively cutting them out.  I think if Laurel was there, then either Dig or Laurel would stay with Thea while the other would go with him.

 

Thea gasping, "I'm ok."  She didn't look like she could get up on her own, still laying in the street.

Oliver: "Stay with Speedy."

Felicity: "Let them help you."

Oliver: "I'll get Cupid."

 

It reminded me of the Dollmaker episode where Felicity hit her head (but was ok) and he told Dig to stay with Felicity while he chased down the Dollmaker...maybe Lance was running ahead of him.

 

I think a better set up to really drive her point home would set up a situation similar to what we saw in the first timeline of 4x8 when he deliberately told his entire team to stay behind.  It would be a bigger highlight and more effective message showing he obviously sidelining his team.

Edited March 30, 2016 by ComicFan777

[catrox14]

 

I've heard that a few times but it's so not how I took the line. The island comment wasn't a twisting of the knife, just a IMO a reference point for what was going on.  It felt like a fact, not a dig.  Why would it be a dig after four years of her not blaming him for what he had to do on the island?  It never occurred to me anyone would take it that way.

 

I'm not saying that it was a  petty dig at Oliver from Felicity. It wasn't. 

 

 

Felicity:  You know, no matter how much you love me, there's always gonna be a part of you that defaults to the man who was on the island alone... who came back to save the city alone.  And sooner than we both think, you're going to be stuck in a situation where you have to make a decision that requires you to hide things from me again.

 

I'm not bashing Felicity or her choice to leave him.

 

It's the dialogue I bolded that was overly harsh and it just makes me fucking sad. If she doesn't really believe that about him, then it's just kind of mean thing to say.

 

To me, if she does mean every word and that's what she believes in her heart, then I really can't see how they can reconcile.

 

If Felicity truly believes that Oliver is literally incapable of change because of what the island did to him then yes on some level she is using the thing that he had no control over and that broke him against him. Nor is she giving him an option to prove otherwise because she believes he is that damaged. 

 

Oliver has no way to prove to her that he can or has changed  if she does not see it in action and since she left Team Arrow and she no longer lives with him, she'll never see him faced with that situation to show that he has changed. 

 

It's a nasty double bind the writers put both of them in. 

[statsgirl]

If the problem is that Oliver is relying only on himself, as he does every season at this time, it's an easier fix because all he has to do is demonstrate that he's open to seeking help from others. Maybe that's why they put the part in there when Oliver goes after Cupid by himself instead of getting help from Diggle.  If the problem is that he's a pathological liar, there's no help for that, or at least not within the lifespan of the show.

 

Oliver told Diggle that Felicity broke up with him because he lied about his son, so Diggle knows that it is more than just Oliver having a son.

Oliver did say that but Diggle replied that having a kid, that's a big thing, which sounded like the son was the problem rather than the lie.

 

I think that having Felicity bring up the idea of the wedding could make Oliver look even more like the kicked puppy.  It can be seen as if she forced him into doing this wedding right after dumping him.  It could make her look insensitive by dangling the what-could-have-been in a fake wedding, especially since he put his heart out there with his pleading vows, I think it could have made her look even worse to the audience.

I think the suggestion for the fake wedding had to come from Oliver.  Not only would it have been cruel coming from Felicity, it showed that Oliver was willing to break all the rules (i.e. Felicity expected him to work with her as a team mate) in order to get Felicity back and that is why she had to leave the team.  It was hard on her anyway but Oliver made it impossible for her to work with him.

[Genki]

I'm not saying that it was a  petty dig at Oliver from Felicity. It wasn't. 

 

 

 

I'm not bashing Felicity or her choice to leave him.

 

It's the dialogue I bolded that was overly harsh and it just makes me fucking sad. If she doesn't really believe that about him, then it's just kind of mean thing to say.

 

To me, if she does mean every word and that's what she believes in her heart, then I really can't see how they can reconcile.

 

If Felicity truly believes that Oliver is literally incapable of change because of what the island did to him then yes on some level she is using the thing that he had no control over and that broke him against him. Nor is she giving him an option to prove otherwise because she believes he is that damaged. 

 

Oliver has no way to prove to her that he can or has changed  if she does not see it in action and since she left Team Arrow and she no longer lives with him, she'll never see him faced with that situation to show that he has changed. 

 

It's a nasty double bind the writers put both of them in. 

 

I agree, Felicity's stand is so absolute, it's hard to see a way forward for Olicity to reconcile.

 

Felicity is in the right with her position that Oliver needs to change and he needs to be a full partner to her, which includes leaning on her and allowing her to help bear some of his burdens. Oliver does revert to trusting himself and sacrificing himself to protect loved one, which takes away their choice, but Felicity isn't right in believing Oliver can't change and can't learn form his mistakes.

 

I believe she has this viewpoint because, her father just broke her heart, Cooper was proven to be selfish, and Oliver has done his lone wolf thing many, many times before. Unfortunately we didn't get a her point of view so the show has made it seem like she has taken this hard line and won't budge. 

 

I think in addition to Oliver's grand gesture of proof he can change, something is going to have to make Felicity, change her belief that he can't change and let her give him the chance to demonstrate his ability to change. I hope it's not the death but something else, (although I won't be opposed to YOLO Olicity sex as a reaction to the death). 

This is why I hope the rumours of The Calculator's retire are true, it was so quick and so unresolved and we barely got Felicity's POV.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the comment about the island was harsh but also necessary because that's the crux of the problem and you can't deal with the problem if you don't acknowledge why the problem exists. It's like when Dig in S1 told him he came home but he didn't leave the island. It was hard to hear but it was also true and it made Oliver realize he didn't want to keep going on like that. Oliver would be a completely different person if he didn't experience what he did and he has a hard time relying on other people because he learned the hard way that it's safer for him to rely only on himself. He told her "things can be different, I can be different" and that was heartbreaking for me to hear because it was clear how much he wanted that but on that other hand you don't change in one day because you decide tomorrow you are going to be a different person, it doesn't work that way.

The healthy way to deal with the issue would be IMO for Oliver to go to therapy and open up about everything that happened when he was away for himself first, not just to fix the relationship, that's secondary. I'm fully aware it isn't going to happen btw, LOL

I think in the moment she said that line she believed it, partially because it's a real issue Oliver has and partially because she was hurt and lost hope about lots of things, not just his ability to change. Felicity has always believed he could be the best version of himself and I think she will believe it again but not right after she got her heart broken.

Also I'd like to see the roles be reversed for a change and have Oliver believe in himself and in her while Felicity doubts everything. She is wrong to think he can't change and I really want Oliver to prove that to her.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[Guest]

You know, I do think Felicity was a little harsh with what she said to Oliver but it was true. And the fact is, he wasn't getting it. He was still thinking that she'd come around and that they could get married because that was what they both wanted and they love each other so much. IMO she had to be harsh for him to finally understand that his lies and inability to open himself fully to her, to depend on her as a true partner, was a limit for her. 

 

But it is really a shame that we didn't get more of Felicity's POV, and one that was stated explicitly. Felicity has just been through hell with her injury and then she saw her father again for the first time in nearly 20 years and she wanted so much to hope that he'd changed and he hadn't. He destroyed that hope and disappointed her. Add that to her mom saying that people don't change and Oliver then repeating the same mistakes he's made year after year, is it any wonder she feels like she does? Is it really surprising she now thinks Oliver can't change because of what happened to him on the island? Why should she stick around feeling the way she does?

 

Now, I can say that as a Felicity fan and someone who watches the show intently and talks about it but I wonder if a lot of the audience forgets everything that's happened, which is why they did her a disservice in not giving her the chance to lay out why she feels the way she does.

[GirlvsTV]

Yeah, I don't really get why Felicity is wrong to think Oliver can't change in this respect when he has yet to provide evidence that suggests he can. From her point-of-view, he's 'learned' this lesson several times before, but always defaults to keeping secrets. Why would she believe he can change, at this point?

[apinknightmare]

There is a logical line of reasoning that we can follow to understand why Felicity believes that Oliver isn't ever going to stop the secret keeping. At this point, though, it's total fan wank. After teaming with Malcolm last year, and everything that went down in relation to his secret mission to take down the LoA, she's right to have trust issues, but we haven't ever seen that she does. So, I think, it's easy to forget about, especially if you don't analyze things like we do.

I think it probably would've been pretty easy for them to throw in a line of dialogue after Oliver says, "You can't know that." She could've responded with something like, "I do know that. Last year you were making secret plans to take down the League with Malcolm, and fooling us into thinking you really were Al Sahim. I thought we were past all that, but here you are, hiding things again, and I don't think you'll ever stop." But, people probably would've accused her of throwing his past in his face.

I think the ultimate disservice to this breakup wasn't not giving Felicity a POV, it was basing it around a secret kid. People have such strong, immovable opinions on what lengths a parent could and should go to to protect their child, and what is and is not someone else's business wrt the care and protection of that child. She was not ever, ever going to win here, regardless how plot hole-y and stupid Oliver's reasoning for doing what he did with William was or how much evidence there is in her favor to back up the break up.

Edited March 30, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I think *Oliver* needed to hear that line about the island making him what he is, because throughout this episode, he thought Felicity's issue wasn't as huge as it was. He underestimated the reasons why Felicity broke up with him. And I think this influenced audience reaction too -- since Felicity got a super limited teeny tiny POV during the entire arc, Oliver underestimated her reasons, and so did the audience.

 

What I find interesting, is that Felicity is both right and wrong. She's right to not want to be in a relationship with a guy whose first instinct is to shut everyone out, but she's wrong to think Oliver can't change. And she HAS to be wrong about that, because that's the next narrative beat -- Oliver changing, and sharing, and proving her wrong.

Edited March 30, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

For me Felicity did think Oliver could change and she gave him another chance after he lied to them about what he was doing with Malcolm and the League. Then he did it again. He continues to default to lying and retreating into himself, he hasn't shown her he can change, yet. 

[hogwash]

I was happy that they got a proper breakup but some of the stuff she said reminded me of Diggle's "You don't trust. You don't love" BS. The only thing Oliver's lied about since they've been together is the contrived BM drama. Plus he talked about going undercover with Damien Darhk with Diggle and then talked with Felicity instead of pulling the same crap he pulled with Malcolm and the LOA. So, that "you can't change" stuff doesn't hold up much. But I get the sentiment behind it.

This post went in circles...

[AyChihuahua]

If the problem is that Oliver is relying only on himself, as he does every season at this time, it's an easier fix because all he has to do is demonstrate that he's open to seeking help from others. Maybe that's why they put the part in there when Oliver goes after Cupid by himself instead of getting help from Diggle.  If the problem is that he's a pathological liar, there's no help for that, or at least not within the lifespan of the show.

His first instinct being to lie is really not at all the same as being a pathological liar. The former is pretty fixable, the latter means no one should ever be in any kind of relationship with him. We've watched him for nearly four years now, really nearly eight with flashbacks, and I have seen no evidence that he's a pathological liar.

[tarotx]

Felicity wanting Oliver to change is the problem some are having with her so even if she had a pov a chunk of fans wouldn't be on her side. If she can't accept Oliver as he is, he's better off without her.  They think Oliver has became weak all in the name of love. Before Felicity became part of the team Oliver was a better fighter and a stronger person. 

 

The thing is that all of that was a facade. Oliver felt he had to hide everything in because to fight darkness you had to be darkness. Though that holding everything in was a part of Ollie before the Island. But that isn't what Oliver wanted. He wants to be a good man who people respect and who deserves their respect. Part of the reason Oliver closes off is because he doesn't respect him and believes if he's injured or killed it's an acceptable casualty. Oliver has done a lot of bad stuff. He just can't get into his head that the bad stuff is usually just a consequence of him closing off and not sharing his thoughts, fears and worries. Though I think he learned from his parents that as long as you don't voice the issues, they aren't insurmountable issues. Being on the island just made it worse because Oliver learned to hate himself. Though he needed to for change. Though not as dramatic as the 5 years in hell. 

 

Having Both Felicity and Diggle in his life as well as Tommy's death made Oliver see he had to try and change if they could see a good man under the hood. Oliver wants to be a better person like they deserve as a friend. But Oliver still reverts to the dark place of violence, lies and secrets when under stress. But that is the past coming out in Oliver and not what he wants is his heart.

 

If Oliver can realize that sharing his thoughts, fears and worries, his missions as well as his failures he can grow to be the good man he pretended to be in Ivy.

 

I wish people would take in situations on tv more like I do myself :p I try and place myself into each person's thought process. Felicity's mindset shouldn't have to be stated (other then is should because it makes a more realistic better represented diverse show) when we have 4 seasons worth of motivations. Arrow isn't a procedure show. We know these characters. We know felicity was abandoned by her dad and that having issues with Oliver shunting her out has been an on going issue since season 1. 

 

Right now she has lost all hope. It's not a good place to be in. Especially for someone like Felicity who has fought to be a positive character and a good person. She does get mean when she's angry and that is something she doesn't allow herself. Which is why she left team Arrow. She just couldn't see how picking herself up and being the person she wants to be was going to breathe when Oliver saw her presence on the team as a chance. We know what the team means to her so we know how broken up she was inside. I'm hoping we can get some of this now that Donna's back and Felicity has scenes with Thea.

Edited March 30, 2016 by tarotx

[kismet]

People can change. The problem is that change like most human actions is not completely linear. Some changes are permanent or irreversible and some changes can fluctuate. Also once a person achieves a level of change does not mean that they will never ever make that mistake again. One would hope they would not, but the potential is always there, especially for someone like OQ who had bad tendencies before the island that only got worse there.

So before FS takes him back she is going to have to decide if she wants to be with someone who has the potential to be a lone wolf. He will need to make his grand gestures but they are not a guarantee that for the rest if his life he will never feel pressured, revert to bad choices and make a mistake. That potential is always going to be there. So if she can't deal with the potential than she shouldn't take him back. But we know that will probably not happen because he is learning his lessons just at a glacier pace.

I also think the whole you cannot change had some degree of truth to it but most of it was coming from a really hurt place so it was probably a little over emphasised & dramatized. It was a very real but cliched response to an ex during a break up. Likewise Dig's it will take time also came from a very cliched place. By the end of the episode there were a lot of cliches from everyone but when it comes to breakups the thing about cliches is that they exist because they are true or at least happen with a lot of frequency.

Edited March 30, 2016 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

People have incredibly short memories.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Oliver is a pathological liar. He's used to having do things on his own or thinks he has to do things on his own to protect people. He hasn't learned that, that's not the way to protect people. He's a messed up idiot not a pathological liar. Which can be fixed if he tries hard enough to change his ways. I do think he wants to, he just doesn't know how. Hopefully this break up will teach him the lesson he should've learned the 5000 other times it blew up in his face. 

 

Someone needs to tell Oliver in a way he understands, a fortune cookie saying. "Lies and secrets, they are like a cancer in the soul. They eat away what is good and leave only destruction behind" 

[nksarmi]

I kind of don't even think it was the lie itself that made Felicity walk out - I think it was the lie combined with his decision to send William away while never talking to her about it.

 

I'm not saying Felicity got to make the decisions, but damn - she sure could have helped make sure BM and kid were safe when they did disappear.  I'm not even sure I understand why he didn't talk to Felicity about it.

 

But the bottom line is that he shut her completely out, made unilateral decisions, and kind of made it worse by talking to other people instead of her.  I mean, Thea said "I kind of figured it out" and Felicity is probably pretty sure Oliver didn't tell Malcolm, but still she's smart enough to wonder why he didn't tell her once he knew other people knew.  Did he value his promise to BM more this his promises to her?  Did he think telling her would put the kid in more danger when at least three other people already knew - one of which had just vowed vengeance on him? Or did he just not want to tell her.

 

Then you follow that with an episode where he tells her Diggle's advice without asking what she thought.  He acted on Vixen's advice without asking her what she thought. He showed her unequivocally that they were not a "we".

 

And I don't consider this hypocritical compared to her helping out the team and not telling him for several reasons.  First, I don't believe she ever promised him she wouldn't help the team again if they came to her.  I think he promised her "no more lies" at some point but I forget.  Second, she was helping people do good who really needed her.  He was keeping a promise it made no sense to keep and probably did harm by not suspecting Malcolm earlier.  Third, their relationship had changed between the two events - getting more serious. 

 

But most importantly - when Felicity's lie came out, she talked to him about why she did it and told him how she felt about being part of the team and gave him a chance to accept that.  Whereas when this lie came out, he didn't talk to her about it, ask her what she thought, and address the whole thing going forward as a couple - he continued to act on his own.  That had to really hurt - especially if she had time to think back to after Center City when she asked him to come clean and he said it was over. 

 

So Felicity is in a place of thinking "This is Oliver - he's always going to shut me out about something big - rather its working with Malcolm or hiding a secret kid.  When he thinks I'll disapprove - he will shut me out. I can't deal with it and he won't change."  Sure it looks like it can't be resolved because it's a hard thing to prove you can change on, but hopefully they will write it so that he does something big enough that she gives him another chance - not knowing for sure if he's changed but hoping he has and loving him enough to risk it again.

[ComicFan777]

Does anyone know when Oliver made an actual promise to never lie to Felicity? 

Obviously, it is implied that he should never lie to her, but I didn't remember when he actually promised her.
MG had mentioned: "People can and should debate whether the promise he made to Felicity to always be truthful trumps the promise he made to Samantha."

Edited March 30, 2016 by ComicFan777

[dtissagirl]

Felicity's mindset shouldn't have to be stated (other then is should because it makes a more realistic better represented diverse show) when we have 4 seasons worth of motivations. Arrow isn't a procedure show. We know these characters. We know felicity was abandoned by her dad and that having issues with Oliver shunting her out has been an on going issue since season 1.

 

I agree with this, and I really prefer it when fiction isn't didactic at every turn. But on the other hand, the writing has shortchanged Felicity's POV so many times now, that it makes it really really hard for a fickle audience with perennial memory problems to connect with her motivations.

 

And I mean, I'm with you, I'm comfortable with my understanding of her motivations, but I'm also painfully aware that they could portray it better.

 

[This is part of a bigger issue with Arrow as a whole in that the show has massively failed in portraying side relationships between characters not named Oliver.]

[EmilyBettFan]

I hate to say this but people should be putting some blame on Thea and Diggle. I mean they say go be with her man, but they don't want to dig deep either with Felicity or Oliver. They make Oliver think everything is a-ok and that Felicity will turn back around in no time because it's "what they do."

[dtissagirl]

Does anyone know when Oliver made an actual promise to never lie to Felicity? 

Obviously, it is implied that he should never lie to her, but I didn't remember when he actually promised her.

 

It was part of his vows. "You can ask me to say that I don't love you, but I will never lie to you again." He even said "never" in italics.

[Morrigan2575]

I've decided that this is the compare/contrast between Olicity and Poppy in the Flashbacks.  Right now on the Island Oliver seems to be including Poppy in the decision making, planning, he's not going it alone he's acting as part of a team.  From what I watched and remember from S3, that was pretty much his same mode, he acted in concert with Maseo and Tatsu. 

 

I think we're going to find out that something happens in the past with Poppy that forces Oliver to believe he has to do everything on his own, and that it's better to keep secrets, lie, rely only on himself rather than allowing people in and trusting them openly with everything.  Yes, this is the same stupid lesson Oliver has supposedly learned every season but who knows maybe this time it'll actually stick.

 

As for what happens in the past?  I have no idea, Oliver could discuss a plan with Poppy and she gives him bad advice which leads to her death or everyone else's death?  Or maybe he informs her of a plan and she thinks it's a suicide mission so she goes off and tries to save him which results in her death?  

Edited March 30, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[ComicFan777]

It was part of his vows. "You can ask me to say that I don't love you, but I will never lie to you again." He even said "never" in italics.

 

This article was released in December:

http://www.tvinsider.com/article/59110/arrow-fall-finale-marc-guggenheim-explains-olivers-actions/

From the article, it sounded like he made a promise Felicity at an earlier time, too, and the vows was the second time he made the promise.  I was wondering when was the first time he made the promise to be truthful.

[dtissagirl]

Nope. I think 416 was the first time the show treated the lie as an actual lie, and not as ~the promise Oliver made to the chick he stuck his dick into a decade ago~.

[AyChihuahua]

Nope. I think 416 was the first time the show treated the lie as an actual lie, and not as ~the promise Oliver made to the chick he stuck his dick into a decade ago~.

While being friends with his actual girlfriend, and then lying to him for nine years (minus the time he was gone, fine).

 

You know, if they wanted people not to hate her guts, there would be two super easy fixes. (1) don't actually make her Laurel's friend, and AT LEAST leave it open to interpretation whether she knew he had a girlfriend; and (2) have Moira threaten her, not just bribe her. It could have been a really Moira-esque kind of polite but mostly terrifying threat. Like "I'd hate for something to happen to you because you decided to stay here in Starling City. This city can be very dangerous for young friendless single mothers." Dun dun dun! 

 

Then I wouldn't ABSOLUTELY HATE HER GUTS. Which I do, and always will, which makes me really dislike Oliver for, effectively, choosing her over Felicity.

[Sakura12]

I think making Babymama friends with Laurel shows how much they hate Laurel.

[AyChihuahua]

I think making Babymama friends with Laurel shows how much they hate Laurel.

That's just dumb, though. (I don't mean you.) If their personal feelings towards a character or the actress playing her cause them to make shitty story choices, that's really unprofessional. It pretty much just made me think BM is even worse, and I already despised her.

[Sakura12]

I don't know why else they'd have Laurel's boyfriend cheat on her with her friend and her sister. Star City isn't a small town, Ollie had plenty of women to stick his dick into other than people Laurel knows. I would've even taken some girl that hated Laurel in high school or something. At least that would make sense as to why she was pursing a guy with a girlfriend. 

 

It does make me wonder about the BTS stuff being true. 

[lemotomato]

Making BM friends with Laurel makes me think badly of Ollie and BM, and feel sorry for Laurel. It must suck to realize that everyone you trusted back then-- friends, sister, and boyfriend-- didn't give a shit about you. If I were Laurel I'd be wondering how many of my other female friends from college Ollie had slept with too. 

 

That's why I'm so confused at the thought that O/L would be revived now that O/F broke up. Laurel just found out the he not only cheated on her with her sister, but also impregnated her friend. I mean, seriously. I don't even like Laurel, but I wouldn't want her to go back to someone that had betrayed her so personally so many times.

Edited March 30, 2016 by lemotomato

[nksarmi]

Does anyone know when Oliver made an actual promise to never lie to Felicity? 

Obviously, it is implied that he should never lie to her, but I didn't remember when he actually promised her.

MG had mentioned: "People can and should debate whether the promise he made to Felicity to always be truthful trumps the promise he made to Samantha."

 

I was trying to remember this myself - did he ever actually say "no more lies, I promise" like he did in the last episode?  I mean, yes, Felicity had every reason to expect it, but I'm not sure he promised it.  And I don't want to rewatch any part of season three to see if I can figure it out lol.

[Password]

I'm pretty sure Oliver never promised no more lies to Felicity because that would've been seared into my brain.

But it's almost implied (through Oliver telling Thea repeatedly at the beginning of the season "no more lies") that he and Felicity at the very least had long talks about it and came to a no more lies conclusion.

[nksarmi]

I've decided that this is the compare/contrast between Olicity and Poppy in the Flashbacks.  Right now on the Island Oliver seems to be including Poppy in the decision making, planning, he's not going it alone he's acting as part of a team.  From what I watched and remember from S3, that was pretty much his same mode, he acted in concert with Maseo and Tatsu. 

 

I think we're going to find out that something happens in the past with Poppy that forces Oliver to believe he has to do everything on his own, and that it's better to keep secrets, lie, rely only on himself rather than allowing people in and trusting them openly with everything.  Yes, this is the same stupid lesson Oliver has supposedly learned every season but who knows maybe this time it'll actually stick.

 

As for what happens in the past?  I have no idea, Oliver could discuss a plan with Poppy and she gives him bad advice which leads to her death or everyone else's death?  Or maybe he informs her of a plan and she thinks it's a suicide mission so she goes off and tries to save him which results in her death?  

 

1. I am so impressed that you are paying attention to the flashbacks this season AND trying to make sense out of them.

2. I am also very impressed with your analysis because you are right - all of Oliver's flashbacks to date have involved him working with people and not necessarily being the sole decision maker.  Yet by the time we see him in season one - he is very much of a solo/I'm in charge mindset. 

3. If they do show something in the flashbacks that makes Oliver the way he is now - well bravo them (kind of) and good for you for predicting it.