Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tarotx]

Well Felicity came to Laurel crying so no real info but Oliver's joined the league is believable.

[quarks]

I'm so behind with this thread (trying to catch up-at a snail pace) but there's something that's been bugging me from last episode.

Although it's been nice to have Laurel being useful for a change, there is something about that pep talk she gave Oliver that doesn't seem quite right. Were there that many if any at all instances in which she witnessed Oliver in his 'It's all my fault' state? Because I can't recall any at the moment. Maybe it's because I generally erase her scenes from my mind, but it seemed weird coming from her.

 

Like Bkwurm1, I took it as a callback to the end of the second season. The problem there, of course, is that in that scene, Oliver wasn't so much blaming himself as saying that his only option was to turn himself over to Slade, since he couldn't defeat Slade.  At a couple of points in the third season ("Guilty" and "Canaries") Laurel seemed to think that Oliver was blaming himself for Laurel's decision to defend Ted Grant and become a vigilante, which, whatever, Laurel. And I figure that Laurel and Diggle and Thea spent the summer bonding over all of their complaints about Oliver, so Laurel could have learned more then, too.  But you're right in that on the show, Laurel really hasn't seen Oliver in that many "it's all my fault" states, which is one problem with the scene.

 

The real problem, of course, was that ordinarily this sort of speech would have been given to Diggle (who would have phrased things slightly differently) or Felicity (who did echo parts of it in any case), both of whom have seen Oliver do just this plenty of times, so it's a credible reaction from them. Laurel got the speech because Diggle and Felicity were kidnapped, though, Diggle, at least, seems to have been kidnapped in part so that Laurel could give the speech - and also to give Arrow a reason to put Malcolm into the Green Arrow suit, since otherwise, Diggle would have been part of the rescue team.

 

It's only fair to note that at least some Laurel fans took it as further proof that Laurel knows Oliver better than anyone - knows him down to his bones.

[tv echo]

What I noticed was that Laurel's 'pep talk' to Oliver didn't influence Oliver's thinking or his actions at all...

 

Oliver: "Did you learn anything from the hotline?"

Laurel" "Only how many crazy/bored people there are in the city. Don't go there."
Oliver: "Where?"
Laurel: "Your go-to place. Where you sit there and you say that it's all your fault."
Oliver: "Well, it is my fault. I'm the one who outed Darhk."
Laurel: "I know. I seem to remember us all being there when you did."
Oliver: "I ran for mayor because I can protect myself and I thought that all of you could, too."
Laurel: "And you were right, we can."
Oliver: "I know, but you didn't sign up for this."
Laurel: "Oliver, we can take care of ourselves. And that's including Felicity. You inspired a lot of people."
Oliver: "Well, Thea and John and Felicity - inspiration is not what they need tonight. But somewhere, someplace there is a Ghost that's gonna talk to me."
Laurel: "What if there isn't?"
Oliver: "I'm going to take great pleasure in trying to make them."

 

In that sense, this dialogue could never have been given to Diggle or Felicity because when they speak, Oliver is influenced in some way.  For example, in 409, Oliver & Felicity have this conversation...

 

Oliver: "I have that handled, Felicity. It had to be this way."
Felicity: "Why? 'Cause you think that we're in this situation because of your decisions? Look, I really hate to be the one to break this to you, Oliver, but you are not the boss of me. And I am the one who decides whether I need anyone's protection. But at the Christmas party from hell, you said you were gonna propose and you didn't because you weren't sure our relationship could survive this kind of life."
Oliver: "It was a holiday party. And I had more to say, but we were attacked."
Felicity: "And here we are, fighting. Fighting our way through the danger instead of running away from it. Isn't that the whole point of marriage, to get through the hard times because we are together, not in spite of it?"
Oliver: "Yeah."
Felicity: "Just so you know, if you would have asked me, I would have said yes."

 

And then later, Oliver proposes. 

 

Also remember that last season, Felicity is the one who gave him the "Don't fight to die, fight to live" speech that apparently was pivotal in giving Oliver the victory over Ra's (no matter how unrealistic).  Not to mention her multiple "I believe in you" and "find another way" speeches from past seasons that influenced Oliver's thinking and actions.  There are also examples of Oliver/Diggle conversations from past and current seasons (like the 406 scene when they share a bottle of Tennessee whiskey and Diggle reminds an oddly insecure Oliver that Felicity chose him and not supersmart Ray).

Edited December 13, 2015 by tv echo

[looptab]

Like Bkwurm1, I took it as a callback to the end of the second season. The problem there, of course, is that in that scene, Oliver wasn't so much blaming himself as saying that his only option was to turn himself over to Slade, since he couldn't defeat Slade.  At a couple of points in the third season ("Guilty" and "Canaries") Laurel seemed to think that Oliver was blaming himself for Laurel's decision to defend Ted Grant and become a vigilante, which, whatever, Laurel. And I figure that Laurel and Diggle and Thea spent the summer bonding over all of their complaints about Oliver, so Laurel could have learned more then, too.  But you're right in that on the show, Laurel really hasn't seen Oliver in that many "it's all my fault" states, which is one problem with the scene.

 

The real problem, of course, was that ordinarily this sort of speech would have been given to Diggle (who would have phrased things slightly differently) or Felicity (who did echo parts of it in any case), both of whom have seen Oliver do just this plenty of times, so it's a credible reaction from them. Laurel got the speech because Diggle and Felicity were kidnapped, though, Diggle, at least, seems to have been kidnapped in part so that Laurel could give the speech - and also to give Arrow a reason to put Malcolm into the Green Arrow suit, since otherwise, Diggle would have been part of the rescue team.

 

It's only fair to note that at least some Laurel fans took it as further proof that Laurel knows Oliver better than anyone - knows him down to his bones.

I think that's exactly my problem with this, haha. These "Stop blaming yourself like you always do" speeches make sense when they come from Diggle or Felicity. I'm not begrudging Laurel her pep talk, but the content. She could have still made her point, told Oliver he shouldn't blame himself because they're all grown-ups or whatever, without talking about go-to places and whatnot. 

Unless she really does knows him down to his bonees. Maybe she's a psychich!

[tv echo]

Maybe it's just transference.  In the past, Laurel's go-to place has been to blame Oliver.

[way2interested]

The real problem, of course, was that ordinarily this sort of speech would have been given to Diggle (who would have phrased things slightly differently) or Felicity (who did echo parts of it in any case), both of whom have seen Oliver do just this plenty of times, so it's a credible reaction from them. Laurel got the speech because Diggle and Felicity were kidnapped, though, Diggle, at least, seems to have been kidnapped in part so that Laurel could give the speech - and also to give Arrow a reason to put Malcolm into the Green Arrow suit, since otherwise, Diggle would have been part of the rescue team.

 

It's only fair to note that at least some Laurel fans took it as further proof that Laurel knows Oliver better than anyone - knows him down to his bones.

 

It's one of the things I questioned before going into the episode. I honestly wondered why DD kidnapped all of them when the point could have been made with just Felicity, considering the fact that a major plot point of this episode was their relationship (also it would have made Oliver's concern for Felicity a bit better to accept for some people, since I saw that some people did have problems with the fact that Oliver seemed to have less concern for his best friend and sister). But then I realized that it was to give Laurel this scene to talk to Oliver, which just seemed obligatory rather than internally motivated to me, and to give Laurel and Malcolm the save at the end. If Diggle were still there, he definitely would have given this speech, if Thea were there, she would have probably given Oliver a speech about how the Oliver that she knows wouldn't just give up (call back to her 404 pep talk). However, with Laurel, the writers needed to commit to a side for her to be motivating, either "never give up" (which I think would have worked better since Laurel has shown stubborn tendencies) or "keep the hope" (which they did give her and made her seem less sincere especially when connected to Felicity quoting the exact same piece of dialogue back to Oliver), and they kind of just made the wrong choice.

 

I do think, however, that this scene with Oliver and Laurel was one of the better ones they've had in a while. 

[tarotx]

Oliver's (blood and found) family being there to encourage and inspire him is his source of strength. Them being taken weakens his spirit. He turns violent and doesn't think. It takes Malcolm to get him to think instead of feel. Malcolm is Thea's family and him thinking to save Thea gets Oliver heading right into the danger but a more pro active danger.

[Chaser]

The more I think about the conversation the more interesting I find it.

Felicity was taken for obvious reasons.

Thea was taken because she is Oliver's sister and to bring Malcolm into the fold.

Diggle was taken.....because? Yes they are brothers but not in a super obvious way to the public eye. And why would DD risk taking a special forces solider when the point can be made with Thea and Felicity? The answer sounds like it's more external. They needed that Oliver and Laurel scene.

But that is an interesting scene to choose for the characters. If they wanted a Comic Team Up, why didn't they send Laurel into the field with Oliver (ironically the GA team up was with not-GA)? They could have shown them coming back and talking action things and her reassuring him that they will find them. Then have her get the call about her father.

Instead, they have a scene that a) didn't actually accomplish anything and b) continued the theme of death anvils by paralleling the grave scene.

All of Laurels one on one scenes were death anvils. Interestingly, this episode was written by WM.

ETA: Regardless of what happens, I'm enjoying the hell out of these anvils.

Edited December 13, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[way2interested]

Oliver's (blood and found) family being there to encourage and inspire him is his source of strength. Them being taken weakens his spirit. He turns violent and doesn't think. It takes Malcolm to get him to think instead of feel. Malcolm is Thea's family and him thinking to save Thea gets Oliver heading right into the danger but a more pro active danger.

 

Oh, I definitely get that. That's how I rationalized it once the promos made it clear that the three of them were taken and that Malcolm was wearing the GA suit and fighting DD for some reason. Oliver's known to make questionable decisions without his friends (321-323) and especially without Felicity (304), so I did like the idea that his only logical plan was to refer back to s1 Oliver to get his results because, at that point, s1 Oliver was all he had. My only problem with all three being taken is that it felt off to me for some reason, but I chalk it up to the repeated "we can take care of ourselves" line. Every time it was stated, I kept saying to myself, "Well, obviously, this episode proves otherwise." I get that Laurel, Thea, and Felicity all meant it in more of an emotional sense that a literal physical sense, but knowing that three of the most important characters, two who are really capable fighters, were all taken at once made the line ring slightly false to me. 

 

The only logical explanation I could figure that all three were taken at once were to give Laurel and Malcolm chances to shine rather than actually organically setting up a possible regression for Oliver into the darkness, although I loved the effect all the same

 

All of Laurels one on one scenes were death anvils. Interestingly, this episode was written by WM.

ETA: Regardless of what happens, I'm enjoying the hell out of these anvils.

 

Not to mention the fact that WM even admitted that there were "possible hints" for the grave in 409. I get that she was probably referencing the Felicity-death fake-out, but it still makes me think. It was fun to here these overkill anvil lines said between different characters who we already know care about each other.

Edited December 13, 2015 by way2interested

[calliope1975]

Quarks should add "Things Laurel Doesn't Know" to her episode posts. :p

[bijoux]

Quarks should add "Things Laurel Doesn't Know" to her episode posts. :p

Things Laurel Knows would probably make for a shorter list.

[Ceylon5]

I think the point that Felicity and Laurel were trying to make wasn't so much that they will always be safe and never need help (which is obviously not the case for any of them, including - or even especially - Oliver), but rather that it's their choice to be unsafe.  They are responsible for their own lives and choices, not Oliver or anyone else.  So if they're in a sticky situation, it's because of their own choices.  Yes, they'd like help, but no, they don't want someone else feeling guilty or responsible for the position they're in, nor do they want someone else to give up their life to save theirs.

[quarks]

Things Laurel Knows would probably make for a shorter list.

 

So true. Spare a thought for my poor wrists.

[statsgirl]

I'm still wondering how Felicity and Diggle explained to Laurel why Oliver had turned himself over to the LOA, while leaving out the whole Thea-in-the-Lazarus-Pit thing.  Also why did they leave that part out and tell her some alternative explanation?  Seems pointless.  Or did she just not ask, and they never explained anything at all?  Which meant she must have also not asked how Thea recovered so fast (or did she even know Thea was hurt in the first place?).  Weird.

She knew that Thea had been hurt, Oliver told her that he was transferring Thea to a medical facility in Central City since the hospital in Starling couldn't do any more for her.

 

I think it would have been enough for Laurel to have been told that Ra's would not stop killing in the city unless Oliver signed on so he did.

 

. Laurel got the speech because Diggle and Felicity were kidnapped, though, Diggle, at least, seems to have been kidnapped in part so that Laurel could give the speech - and also to give Arrow a reason to put Malcolm into the Green Arrow suit, since otherwise, Diggle would have been part of the rescue team.

Although to be fair, while he could have been part of the rescue team, I don't think they could have used Diggle as the Green Arrow.  Casting might be colour blind but Damien Darhk is not.

 

eta:  I could forgive Malcolm almost everything for the "bondage outfit" line.

Edited December 13, 2015 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

Oliver telling Laurel about transferring Thea happened in a deleted scene. I'm not sure there was anything in the aired episode to indicate her being informed of anything.

[statsgirl]

I don't think t here was.  But it makes more sense if we keep the deleted scene as canon rather than that Laurel didn't even know that Thea was injured. And she must have known since Thea is still presumably living with her because she got stabbed in her own loft.  Thea or someone must have explained why she didn't want to live there alone any more.

[apinknightmare]

Based on the way Thea explained what happened to her in The Candidate, it didn't seem like Laurel had any idea anything had happened to her at all. Thea wouldn't have had to tell her what happened to her in the loft (she said she didn't say anything because she didn't want to relive it) - she could've just told Laurel she didn't want to live by herself, or wanted some company. Not sure where Laurel thought the whole team went or why, though. She didn't seem to be all that curious about it even in the deleted scene.

[kismet]

I don't see how breaking up with someone who's lied to you about something huge could possibly be vindictive, or why in the world she should have to stay with him to keep up his approval ratings or otherwise she's vindictive.  Is she allowed to break up with him, ever, for anything? 

 

We saw her reaction to his lies in 4.08.  We saw that these writers are incapable of consistency across episodes (Flash 2.08, Felicity brings him peace, Arrow 4.08; lie lie lie to her).  So one line in 4.09 means she won't break up with him for lying to her?  I would imagine, especially given the context, she was thinking more about weathering people attacking them, not Oliver lying to her face about something huge.  And, if she doesn't break up with him, the whole storyline is pointless...it's obviously a stall, so if they just mosey on together, what does it stall? 

 

If she doesn't break up with him, he'll never learn.  He's gotten away with lying to his loved ones again and again and again.  They all just get over it, or tell him they're proud and get over it.  The longest anyone's been mad at him is Digg, and that was a few months, most of which they were on separate continents.  If she just bygones this, he'll keep doing it.  That's in-show.  Out-of-show, what in the world was the point of him lying if there's not a bunch of drama, plus this is still Guggie, it's still everyone from S3.  People seem to think Guggie et al., learned their lessons...what lesson, that melodrama, angst, and stupidity bring great ratings?  Why would he stop that NOW? 

 

Also, if she doesn't massively kick his ass about this, she really is a Mary Sue.  Or a saint or a martyr or a doormat.  "Boy, Oliver, it must have been so hard for you to lie to my face and snuggle my boobs after lying to my face!  Come here and let me give you a big ol' kiss!"  What Oliver is doing is WRONG, and she/the narrative have to make that really clear to him.

I hope that the writers don't make his poll ratings anything to do with them breaking up or not breaking up. I hate the Keeping Appearances excuse used to justify why characters (or even people IRL) accept shitty behavior. And what OQ did was shitty & not right, even if he did it for valid and good reasons in his head. How they handle the "fallout" from this secret keeping is going to be interesting. Because there is a very fragile line between making FS seem like a pushover or doormat and giving her the compassion to forgive to move forward. And these writers sometimes miss the mark when they take out their sledgehammer.

 

I don't necessarily see a break-up, but there is going to be some time apart. She has to at least has to kick his ass verbally at least once. There has to be a least a half of an episode (if not more) where FS has to think about the situation & OQ's actions. The first timeline in 408, I think had her blowing up too soon. If she fully intends to want to be with OQ, which I think she wants to despite his penchant for secret keeping. She really needs time to work out how she can handle him. How she can get him to trust her with his secrets. Because trust is a two-way street, they need to somehow work on it together. And he can't go back now and undo his promise to BM, but he could have approached her before even seeing BM so they could handle the situation as partners. However, that is going to take convincing OQ to be an open partner. And O/F are a great couple together and share a lot, but they do also have a tendency to keep stuff from the other to protect them. So openness is something they need to work out together.

 

I also think they need to make OQ learn from this experience and I'm not sure FS breaking up with him would achieve that. He probably would expect that and therefore is prepared for that outcome. Just like he was perfectly okay with Dig keeping his distance, he was done chasing him. FS does mean more to OQ than Dig, so I do not believe he would give up as easily. But I think to get her back he would promise just about anything. But promising doesn’t change his behavior then or in the future. I don’t think her leaving would have the same effect on him, as it would on other people. It would only confirm his expectations. However, FS & him working together to find a way to get him to not keep secrets would be an unexpected turn of events. It would be their classic finding another way. OQ is an evolving man, but he still is the person that less than 1 year ago needed to be reminded to fight to live. His fatalistic tendencies don't just disappear now that he is living more in the light and trying a new way.

[statsgirl]

I think they are going to milk this for all the drama that they can get.  And while I probably won't enjoy it, it's better than a real split and then 3 years of dating other people which most shows do.

 

I don't think she should stay with him because he's running for mayor and it will affect his approval ratings but I think it could be part of a number of reasons why she wouldn't blow up and kick him out right away.  What I want to see from Oliver and Felicity is how they weather storms and deal with problems, hopefully together, rather than stupid drama for the sake of drama like Felicity in a coma for months or Oliver cheating on her with a campaign worker.

 

I don't know how the William situation is going to play out in the end.  It could be anywhere from Oliver telling Felicity he didn't tell her about William because it's the only way he could stay in William's life and he knows how much not having a father hurt her, at which point Felicity is hurt and maybe even needs time away from him but comes to understand the situation he was in, to outright breaking off the engagement and leaving him (although I think that's wouldn't be in Felicity's nature).;

 

Vindictive would be to tank his mayoralty campaign and his crusade because she's angry at him and wants to hurt him back. I don't see that in Felicity.

 

When she's angry at Oliver, she pulls away, walking out after telling him to get his head out of his ass in s2 in Tremors, going outside to "get some air" in 3x12, and I think in the first fight in 4x08 when she walked away and Barry assumed it was because she broke up with him.  So when she finds out The Secret, I hope she's just walking away to get some air instead of anything more drastic.

[tarotx]

I think Oliver will have a few things in his favor for a Felicity forgiveness. Felicity does know how living without a father affected her and affected her mother. She does know Oliver is a natural born liar so when lying becomes someone else's mandate it's believable for Oliver to go along with lying is the only way. She won't be happy about it and her trust of him to tell her important things will suffer a huge blow. Not just as a future wife but as a partner in every aspect of their lives.

Than there is the fact that Oliver had foreknowledge of Barry's take on Felicity dealing with the secret child news. I think that will at first make her mad that Oliver didn't trust her but also make her understand that a tinge of fear of losing Felicity along with not being able to see William might have hampered Oliver's recovery allowing a setback of the progress he has made the past year. Than there is the fact that Felicity was shot and DD is still a threat. Keeping the fear present.

Felicity will be dealing with Oliver's son drama (and Palmer tech and other stuff) along with dealing with whatever injuries (physically and/or psychological). She really needs a good best friend right now. And not employee Curtis either. I'm sure they will use her mom but her mom (as well as Laurel) really need to step back from Felicity's head and deal with her(their) own emotions that this could bring up. I really hope for some Felicity and Thea scenes where the writers allow the discussion to be true to both. Thea grew up without her father (Robert) at the same time was also Malcolm's secret child. Plus she knows all too well Oliver and The Queens go to of being secret keeping lying liars who lie. I want Thea and Oliver scenes too. This is the time to deal with this family tradition.

Now for Oliver's recovery he needs a therapist. Someone who he can talk to without legal worry. I pray Felicity sets this as a mandate for their relationship to survive. I really really need for Oliver to be present while things are tough. I want him to learn how to be in a relationships when it's good and when it's bad. So his head is always in the game. A time he won't have to worry as much about his work or relationship being affected by his choices (mostly secrets and lies but other bad choices as well) if he keeps his head in the game.

Edited December 18, 2015 by tarotx

[BkWurm1]

In Young Justice the person that acted as the resident therapist was Black Canary.  How set are you on Oliver needing a therapist?

[Password]

Hahahaha hahahaha!

[kismet]

Can u imagine LL as a therapist?!?

[bijoux]

But what about meee?

[Ceylon5]

The discussion about Felicity’s unique importance on Team Arrow made me start to think about the story effects that removing any one of the main “grave contenders” would have.  In order from least effect on the overall story (i.e. fewest substantive writing changes required), here’s how I see it:

 

[Note: SW = Substantive Writing will be necessary; MW = Minimal Writing would be required; SW/MW = they could choose to go either route, but SW is not necessary to resolve the problem (e.g. if Laurel dies, a plot point like Thea taking over Laurel’s lease could be written in one line if they choose to go that route (MW), whereas Thea moving in with Oliver & Felicity, for example, would be a SW choice they could also make, which would have on-going effects on the structure of the story).  In all instances, I’m assuming based on the flash-forward that Oliver (and probably everyone left on the show) will at the very least experience normal levels of sadness and want to get justice/avenge the death.  I’ll therefore exclude that story point for all of them.]

 

1) William:

• The death of his son would have a big effect on Oliver.  It might also affect his relationship with Felicity.  They’re bound to make a Big Deal of this storyline, but maybe we’d get lucky and they’d go the minimalist route. SW/MW

2) BabyMama:

• William will become an issue.  If they choose to send him off somewhere, it might require a substantive write in terms of the effects it has on Oliver and on Oliver & Felicity.  No doubt the writers will milk this for all it’s worth.  Plus he’ll always be out there, looming threateningly.  If they bring him into the story permanently, with Oliver as his full-time parent, it will change the show forever. SW/MW

3) Laurel:

• Her father’s storyline would be affected.  This could require Substantive Writing if they decide to go all out with a 'Lance goes off the rails' storyline; or it could simply be minimised to yet another grieving father story, since this is now his third time at the rodeo.  I’d guess they’d go with the OTT route, though. SW/MW
• Greater Arrowverse Effect: Sara, over on LoT would be affected. SW/MW
• Thea would need to find a new place to live (or take over Laurel’s lease?) SW/MW
• Her job has already become essentially invisible/redundant to the story this season, so I’m not counting that at all.

4) Lance:

• Laurel’s storyline would be affected.  The usual crappy writing would follow, so we’re almost guaranteed a substantive write. SW
• A new connection with the SCPD would need to be found (hire a new actor).  Even with Oliver as mayor, they’d still need a police contact.  Maybe Laurel’s lawyer thing would become more prominent again. SW
• Greater Arrowverse Effect: Sara, over on LoT would be affected. SW/MW
• Felicity’s Mom would be affected. MW

5) Diggle:

• Both Oliver and Felicity would be gutted if Diggle died. SW
• Lyla and Sara’s main reason to still be in the story would be severed.  Whether they keep them around from time to time or ultimately drop them, their stories will be massively affected. SW
• Diggle’s brother’s storyline would be affected, if that’s still a thing at that stage.  SW/MW

6) Thea:

• The death of his sister would gut Oliver.  They’d definitely spend time on that. SW
• Malcolm’s main reason to still be in the story would be severed (along with the LoA’s).  They could still continue to force him into the plot, or they could cut him loose (except maybe for occasional guest spots).  But whatever they decide, he’d definitely first have a huge OTT reaction to the death of his daughter. SW
• The boring sort-of boyfriend would be affected (if he’s even still around then). MW

7) Felicity:

• Oliver’s whole storyline/progress will come to a screeching halt.  If any of the others die, he will still have her to help him survive it.  If she dies, I can only see it setting him back to at least S1 brokenness (again). SW
• Oliver’s living arrangements would almost certainly change (maybe Thea would move in again?). SW/MW
• Oliver’s love life will ultimately have to be dealt with again (Choices: Forever Alone (again)/ Womaniser (again)/ Laurel (again)/ New Love Interest (again) – all boring and rehashed). SW
• Palmer Tech’s CEO/Ownership/bankrolling Team Arrow would have to be dealt with (again). SW
• Team Arrow would need a new computer/tech person. SW
• Diggle would be gutted. SW
• Felicity’s mother (and her relationship with Lance) would probably have to be written out, as it would be weird for her to hang about after Felicity died.  So we’d lose her too. SW
• Curtis – he’s currently there as Felicity’s friend/employee, so whatever happens with him will have to be a substantive change. SW
• Greater Arrowverse Effects: Felicity is close with many characters in the greater Arrowverse, so her death would have ripples far beyond Arrow. SW/MW
• Felicity is acknowledged as the character on the show that lightens things up and brings the humour.  They would need to find a way/ a new character to compensate for her absence or the show will get really dark, really fast and stay that way. SW

 

I’m not counting recurring characters like Felicity’s Mom or Thea’s boyfriend or Roy, because other than the William issue, I don’t think that any non-permanent characters would have a substantial effect on the writing of the overall story, other than to make some characters sad for a while.

 

So basically, the first 3 on the list (William, BM and Laurel) could potentially be written out without any greater effects on the show than some obligatory sadness from affected parties.  They could also go bigger – making Lance lose it or bringing William in as a regular or having Felicity fall pregnant, but they don’t HAVE to go that route.  They could get away with just writing them out and largely never addressing them again except as fond memories.

 

The next 3 (Lance, Thea & Diggle) would all have definite story effects beyond their characters, as they either have story roles which would need to be replaced (Lance as police contact), or have connections to other secondary characters whose stories would be affected by their death (Malcolm, Lyla, etc.).  The writers would have to deal with those effects by either introducing new characters or removing others; or at the very least, changing the way certain story aspects are handled.

 

Felicity, on the other hand, affects almost every aspect of the story.  Everything about Oliver’s storyline would be affected by her death so absolutely everything for him would have to re-thought/re-worked.  Several new characters would have to be introduced and/or characters would have to be shuffled into new roles to compensate for her unique role on Team Arrow, her ownership of Palmer Tech, and her status as the show’s light/comic relief, which would affect nearly every relationship/dynamic on the show.  She also has secondary characters connected to the show mainly through her (Curtis, her Mom, potentially her father) whose roles would be dramatically affected by her death.  Plus, she’s the most interconnected Arrow character in the Arrowverse (more so even than Oliver, IMO).  If they’re wanting to blow the show into a million pieces and then start over in the rubble, killing Felicity would be the way to go.  If they’re wanting to kill someone who will have minimal ripples on the show, while still allowing them a “shocking” death, then William or Laurel would be the way to go.

[hogwash]

That is an amazing rundown. Whoa. It made me realize Oliver only has 3 friends. Barry has his own show. Felicity's all that and more. Diggle is the only character on the show whose main role is being Oliver's friend. That was Tommy's role before but Diggle was already there by that point.

There's no way William can die without Oliver blaming himself. Obviously, they might reshoot or change the grave scene or go OOC with Oliver's reaction. But that might be too OOC for him to be all single manly tear after his son who spent 9 years happy and safe dies within 4ish months of Oliver kinda barging into his life.

[Ceylon5]

There's no way William can die without Oliver blaming himself. Obviously, they might reshoot or change the grave scene or go OOC with Oliver's reaction. But that might be too OOC for him to be all single manly tear after his son who spent 9 years happy and safe dies within 4ish months of Oliver kinda barging into his life.

 

I think Oliver's low-key reaction in the flash forward wouldn't work for Felicity, Thea or Diggle either, so that's either an indication that the person in the grave isn't someone whose death would crush Oliver or that they're going to need to change the scene closer to the time.  Also, in terms of feeling guilty for the death, that would depend on how/why the person died.  Oliver used to blame himself regardless, but the new, improved Oliver can separate things he directly caused from things that he had no control over.  What if Darhk did an experimental mass gassing at some event that Oliver's son coincidentally happened to be at (not in any way connected to Oliver)?  He would still vow to stop Darhk, but he would know that the death was in no way his fault.

[hogwash]

An Akio situation would work. Oliver didn't really blame himself then. He just went after the guy. But we barely know William or the BM. That could change but they're off in Central City happy and safe and they don't mean anything to us. It would be sad for Oliver to lose his son before getting to know him but the audience? Eh. The BM is a bigger eh.

 

With your rundown, I still think a Lance is more likely. Laurel is just muscle and another mask at this point so there's less restructuring if it's her while Lance is the police force and the police set. So I'd keep Lance but the killed a Canary and a Lance last season so...

[Sunshine]

Sorry spoilerphobes.  I was in the wrong thread and didn't realize it.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Sunshine

[Password]

Malcolm is going dark? Was that a spoiler?

[Sunshine]

Wrong thread again. My apologies.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Sunshine

[kismet]

I must admit with

Nyssa

slated to come back, that character shot way up the list. Leap frogged over everyone but a Lance. I would even say its neck and neck between LL &

Nyssa

. Because the character's relationships have been prominent with 3 major characters, has been TA adjacent for 4 seasons and the character's death would tie up a lot of loose strings and still pack an emotional wallop.

[apinknightmare]

Why would Nyssa be buried in a random grave in Star City though?

[dtissagirl]

And why would Barry visit Nyssa's grave?

[hogwash]

Why would Oliver shed a single manly tear for Nyssa?

[Ceylon5]

I'm hopeless with sets - do we know for sure that the graveyard is in Star City?  Is it one we've seen before?

[bijoux]

6) Thea:

 

• Malcolm’s main reason to still be in the story would be severed (along with the LoA’s).  They could still continue to force him into the plot, or they could cut him loose (except maybe for occasional guest spots).  But whatever they decide, he’d definitely first have a huge OTT reaction to the death of his daughter. SW

 

That is an excellent point about Thea link Malcolm, and thus LoA, with the main plot. But you are right, they would contort themselves like crazy to keep Malcolm regardless.

[hogwash]

I'm hopeless with sets - do we know for sure that the graveyard is in Star City?  Is it one we've seen before?

 

We know that SA and GG filmed the scene at some random farmhouse but there's no specifics in the show. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm sticking with Laurel or Lance. The EPs/lawyers/networks are probably making the final decision over Winter break. PB's new romance has raised his profile quite a bit...I'm thinking of going from 50/50 to 55/45 that Laurel is in the grave.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I think the ultimate decision lies more with the money people, than the creatives.

[hogwash]

A Lance is the biggest bang for their buck. 

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, I think the ultimate decision lies more with the money people, than the creatives.

Something I learned way back in my Angel fandom days...always follow the money

[Primal Slayer]

I will laugh to near death if neither Lances dies at the end of the season.

[Chaser]

If it's Lance, I'll roll my eyes.

 

If it's Laurel, I'll cheer and jump online to read the meltdown.

 

If it's Diggle/Felicity, I'll turn off the TV.

 

If it's Thea, I'll be sad and disappointed.

[jay741982]

If it's Lance, I'll roll my eyes.

 

If it's Laurel, I'll cheer and jump online to read the meltdown.

 

If it's Diggle/Felicity, I'll turn off the TV.

 

If it's Thea, I'll be sad and disappointed.

There would be a bigger meltdown with Dig or Felicity I think

[tv echo]

I previously posted how objectionable I found the suggestion that Felicity, after having stood by Oliver during his darkest times and helped to lead him into the light, should then die or drop out, in order to pave the way for an Oliver and Laurel relationship.

 

This idea was recently implied by a TV Overmind writer in a Dec. 15, 2015 roundtable discussion:

Jasef Wisener: I haven’t been a big fan of Felicity since Season 3, and I think that the writers completely destroyed her last season. The first few episodes this season have turned her around in a big way, but I really think the best thing for the show’s story (and the Oliver/Laurel relationship that I’m dying to see) is for Felicity to go away. I actually wouldn’t mind if she lived and just jumped over to help out the Legends of Tomorrow in an Oracle-esque role, but I think we’ve gotten to the point that Felicity has done just about all the good that she can on Arrow. With that said, I think the character is too popular with fans to kill off in that way, so I believe she’ll be sticking around.

 

This idea was outright suggested by Natalie Abrams in an old April 30, 2013 TV Guide article:

Natalie Says: Olicity should happen, but not be the end game. We all know that — unless the producers decide to wildly change the canon — Oliver and Laurel (Katie Cassidy) are the end game. But why watch Oliver pine after his former flame for multiple seasons until they're ready for a real, game-changing relationship? Enter Felicity, who's always harbored a crush on him. The duo could share even the shortest of flings before realizing that they aren't right together, but at least she could facilitate Oliver's growth in the relationship department in order to prepare him for the end game.

 

I really, really hate this suggestion that one woman's only role is to help make the hero into a better man who is then ready for a relationship with another woman.  And I find it incredibly disappointing that a professional media person would welcome the idea of women being used in such a way.

Edited December 20, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

To have Felicity die or leave after dealing with injury because she made Oliver a better man for end game Laurel seems so overly nasty. Laurel had her own chance to make Oliver a better man. He was often worse because of their relationship. I mean Oliver told Tommy to go for Laurel and then Oliver jumps right in bad with her. SO yeah. Laurel can't be the end game for a Felicity made better Oliver. It's just Nasty....

Edited December 20, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

In April 2013 (end of s1), I could see how FS could be used as a transitional relationship to make L/O end game. However, I don't think she needs to be killed to do that. That is demoralizing and cruel to just kill off female characters to make way for your end game. It also doesn't say much about your end game. O/F could have had a casual thing and broken up at the start of s2. TBH it would be realistic that they hook up and break up, but still work TA together considering their histories.

 

But that was in 2013, before there was s2 which profited from O/F chemistry. Before there was s3 that brought out celibate Oliver. And most definitely before s4, that basically had Oliver declaring his undying love for FS to just about everybody. At this point, killing FS to make room for L/O is just desperation and crappy storytelling.

 

Even if they were to kill off FS (which I don't believe is happening in s4 or anytime soon), I truly believe that they would have OQ return to a VERY DARK place where he was not willing to be in a relationship with anyone. He might have sex with people, but he would not be dating anyone. He certainly would not be reconnecting with an ex-girlfriend whom he had the opportunity to date for 3+ years since he returned from the island and chose to date other people including her sister (again). 

 

OQ will never choose LL, it is almost show canon at this point. Anytime in show he was given the chance to choose LL he almost always chose the mission, his city or another woman. If not for trying to make his sister happy, I'm not even sure he would have gone through the effort to say that LL was his friend to Alex. He is choosing to be friends with LL now because of TQ and because he is trying a new way. I don't think LL factors into their friendship at all.

[statsgirl]

That's what  you get for trying to predict from the comics rather than watching the show itself -- Lauriver endgame.

 

To have Felicity die or leave after dealing with injury because she made Oliver a better man for end game Laurel seems so overly nasty. Laurel had her own chance to make Oliver a better man. He was often worse because of their relationship. I mean Oliver told Tommy to go for Laurel and then Oliver jumps right in bad with her. SO yeah. Laurel can't be the end game for a Felicity made better Oliver. It's just Nasty....

It really doesn't fit the Hero's Journey.

 

The Relationship Before The Relationship was Oliver/Sara.  They matched on paper (like Felicity and Barry) and they were good to and for each other but it wasn't The Right One.

 

One thing the show has been consistent on is that Laurel makes Oliver a worse man and Felicity makes him a better one.  Gut feeling, you want the hero with the woman show makes him better.

[way2interested]

Another thing is that they've shown that Oliver and Felicity are not just some sort of surface, stereotypical romance. I mean, yes, they do exhibit some of the Good Girl-Brooding Boyfriend type, but they're still way more than that. The writers have shown that Oliver and Felicity are not perfect and completely loving towards each other 100% of the time, but that they're willing to muddle through problems and forgive each other enough to support their relationship. I'm just mentioning this because I was also focusing on other aspects of that above quote that bothered me. 

 

 

Jasef Wisener: I haven’t been a big fan of Felicity since Season 3, and I think that the writers completely destroyed her last season. The first few episodes this season have turned her around in a big way, but I really think the best thing for the show’s story (and the Oliver/Laurel relationship that I’m dying to see) is for Felicity to go away. I actually wouldn’t mind if she lived and just jumped over to help out the Legends of Tomorrow in an Oracle-esque role, but I think we’ve gotten to the point that Felicity has done just about all the good that she can on Arrow.

 

Like tv echo said, I don't appreciate the idea that Felicity is only there to support Oliver to make him better for another woman or to just make him more like the comic GA and then leave forever. However, one thing that always bothered me is the insinuation that s3 somehow ruined Felicity so much that she cannot possibly be good enough a character to be with Oliver anymore. I forgot where this was said and who said it, but I remember someone here saying that they didn't think any character in s3 were really ruined or acted too far out of character (yes, there were definitely moments of plot-focused writing that created unnecessary misery for the characters, but I didn't find anything that "ruined" a character for me, except for maybe MM), and I agree. I think that the characters were just put through the wringer in a way that makes it impossible to look good. Characters aren't always going to look good all of the time, and, although I didn't appreciate how the writers did it, I at least appreciate their ability to make me see that these aren't perfect people. 

 

Back to relationships though to keep on topic. I don't like some of the comments that I saw that basically stated, "Felicity became too whiney this season, Oliver should be with Laurel because she's stronger," because that, to me, discounts part of what you get when you go into a relationship. I'm not saying that couples should be people that constantly badger each other with their problems (nor am I saying that all of the times that Felicity cried were needed, legitimate, yes, but excessive as well), but taking each other fully, with both good parts and bad, are part of the packaged deal with a long-term relationship. S3 showed to me that Felicity wasn't always going to be an upbeat person in the face of death and destruction all of the time and that Oliver wasn't always going to be a person who thought things through. But, as 320 showed, despite all of this, they love each other anyway. Both characters are ultimately good, human people who want to be with each and are willing to weather the bad parts because, in a way, they already had.

 

These people aren't going to be perfect towards one another, and I think it would be asking too much of them to be. Yes, there is the concept of pushing each other too far (which I think 4b might cover), but ultimately I believe that Oliver and Felicity taking each other flaws and all makes their relationship even more important. Discounting Felicity's flaws as a "bad character" instead of taking her as a character with the good and the bad discounts part of the validity of Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Oliver isn't the only character with flaws, and audiences shouldn't expect him to be with a character who doesn't have any or who will simply agree with him and support him all of the time