Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Password]

I don't see it as bad either, but I feel like Oliver in particular benefits from human interaction after learning habits of not trusting anyone.

[dtissagirl]

I think the main motivation would be character development for Oliver and later Felicity if they do it right... Well, the only way they know how to do character development anyway.

 

Sorry to be all disagreeable :), but I don't see separating O/F now as character development. It see it as going backwards. @Password makes a great point -- keeping O/F apart was their arc last season for like, nineteen episodes, and the point of that was to portray that they're better together. So it would repetitive too.

[lexicon]

I don't even see that as bad.  Maybe it's not sufficiently Batman-ish, but Buffy didn't do well without her support team (personally I always thought the reason she was an unusually long-lived and successful Slayer was, in part, because of her team...Slayers seemed mostly to go it alone from what we saw of others).  Angel was told specifically that if he didn't connect with people he'd just go bad again.  Agents of SHIELD are all about having a team and not going it alone.  We saw Barry in his S2 premiere going it sort of alone and he wasn't doing all that well without his team.  People need people...that's not a bug of humanity, it's a feature. 

 

One of the things that Arrow has managed to communicate successfully is that being a hero is not all fun and games and at times can even be a burden. Having a person/team/people who support and help you shoulder that burden does not make you any less of a hero or your sacrifice any less heroic. Maybe if people looked at it that way, instead of seeing Felicity as a crutch Oliver uses to keep him in hero mode, there wouldn't be so much commentary about the need to see him go it alone. Well, at least not from those whose preference it is, simply to see him 'team up' with someone else.

 

Also kudos on the Buffy reference and analysis, it really struck home with me. Sure Buffy could go it alone but she was undeniably better with the Scoobies, providing, physical, logistical or even moral support. 

[AyChihuahua]

Also kudos on the Buffy reference and analysis, it really struck home with me. Sure Buffy could go it alone but she was undeniably better with the Scoobies, providing, physical, logistical or even moral support. 

I think more about Buffy than is entirely healthy.  I love Buffy Summers more than I have ever loved any other fictional character, in any medium.  And Buffy's connections to her friends and family are probably the #1 reason she was such a great Slayer.

 

We saw the original Slayer (don't know much about her, but she presumably died), Kendra (KIA), the flashback Chinese Slayer (KIA), flashback Principal Wood's mom (KIA), and Faith (went nuts and evil, ended up in a coma, finally redeemed with Angel's and Buffy's help).  All of them seemed, from what we saw, to go it alone.  They presumably each had a Watcher, but we know from Giles being fired for loving Buffy like a father that Watchers usually mostly kept their distance, and none of the other Slayers had any friends that we saw.  Spike, who knew and killed two prior Slayers, always seemed very surprised by Buffy's connections and how they grounded her, and pretty much every year except arguably S2 the whole team was necessary to take out the Big Bad.  (I personally think S4 is underrated, and I particularly loved the final few episodes and the joining together of the hand, the heart, the spirit, and the mind to take out Adam.  I think people just hated Riley.)  We saw, in The Wish, that a Buffy without those connections was dark and ragey, and also, LOST against The Master.  Whereas Buffy with those connections kicked his butt in S1.

 

So basically, like Buffy, Oliver is a better and more effective hero, not just a happier person, with his connections.  We saw how ineffective he was going it alone in S3.  He wasn't just miserable, he LOST.  A lot. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Delphi]

Off topic: nikki wood was Robin's mom. And Buffy herself had almost zero percent to do with Faith's redemption.

On topic: I would really love some more scenes of Thea interacting with people. Her excitement about the nonexistent proposal was a good start. But show her talking to Felicity or dinner at the Diggle's ( which could potentially be a sitcom that I would watch. )

[AyChihuahua]

Off topic: nikki wood was Robin's mom. And Buffy herself had almost zero percent to do with Faith's redemption.

On topic: I would really love some more scenes of Thea interacting with people. Her excitement about the nonexistent proposal was a good start. But show her talking to Felicity or dinner at the Diggle's ( which could potentially be a sitcom that I would watch. )

I don't agree that Buffy had nothing to do with Faith's redemption.  A lot of the reason Faith went bad in the first place was jealousy of Buffy's family and friends, and then when she switched places with Buffy she learned from those connections.  Additionally, Buffy welcomed her back when she returned to Sunnydale from prison.  Buffy would have been well within her rights to tell Faith to screw off, since Faith tried to kill her and pretty much all her loved ones.  Instead Buffy accepted her back pretty much immediately and didn't needle her about all the bad things she'd done.

[Stevie-Dee]

Sorry to be all disagreeable :), but I don't see separating O/F now as character development. It see it as going backwards. @Password makes a great point -- keeping O/F apart was their arc last season for like, nineteen episodes, and the point of that was to portray that they're better together. So it would repetitive too.

No problem! I enjoy reading other people's opinions whether they agree or not. That's the reason I joined this forum, you guys don't always agree but you disagree respectfully.

 

In regards to repetitiveness in this show I think that's already been happening for a long time. Laurel's whole BC arc is a shadow of Oliver's s1-3 storyline. I wouldn't be surprised if the s6 finale has her riding off into the sunset with whoever she ends up with. Tbh I don't know a CW show that doesn't get repetitive or go backwards for the sake of story in later seasons.

 

I'm going to say one more unpopular thing then I promise I'll stop. I don't think the plan is to keep Olicity together until the series ends. Get them together again in the last season yes but not keep them together from now until then. They're going to break up at some point so we are going to see Oliver have to cope on his own somewhere down the line. They went straight in head first and made Olicity more or less the picture of a perfect relationship this season and I honestly don't think it will get better than this. (I am completely open to ideas and theories on how they can keep them together until the end. I just don't have much faith in the writers or the network in this regard.)

 

However if you and @password are right I certainly wouldn't complain. My heart agrees and wants you to be right but my brain just wont cooperate!

[Password]

@Stevie-Dee I speak only for myself, but I think the show and its writers have done a very good job of making us jaded. I think the only thing we can do is look at the positives (of which there are many this season) and continue to enjoy the relationship Oliver and Felicity are in.

If we think too far ahead we'll miss the great thing they have going now. If they do break up we'll roll with the punches.

And come here to complain about the writers.

[dtissagirl]

I don't disagree that they'll break up O/F at some point [probably sometime next season?], I just don't see it turning into a storyarc that keeps Felicity completely separated from the A plot for many episodes, so that Oliver has no contact with her whatsoever. That doesn't make any kind of sense to me -- either from a storytelling or a business standpoint.

 

I mean. Smallville had to do exactly that in S10 with Chloe and Oliver, but that was because Allison Mack was only available for 5 episodes. Chloe had to disappear, and Oliver's storyline was having to deal with that.

 

IF EBR asks for a reduced episode count, then I'll worry about it.

[Stevie-Dee]

@Stevie-Dee I speak only for myself, but I think the show and its writers have done a very good job of making us jaded. I think the only thing we can do is look at the positives (of which there are many this season) and continue to enjoy the relationship Oliver and Felicity are in.

If we think too far ahead we'll miss the great thing they have going now. If they do break up we'll roll with the punches.

And come here to complain about the writers.

Yes there are many positives about Olicity this season...all positives really! 

 

You're right, focus on what's happening now. My whole life revolves around planning for the future so sometimes I forget to turn it off.

 

On that note, I can't think of a better handled TV relationship than Olicity in s4. I don't have much faith in these writers so my expectations were low but they've really surprised me. They're writing their relationship better than I imagined so I give them props for that. Thea's story has been handled well too for the most part. You can really see the change in her from s1+2. 

[statsgirl]

I agree, I've been very pleasantly surprised at how well the Oliver/Felicity relationship has been handled this season.  They've been strongly supportive of each other but it hasn't been "in your face", it's been through offered support and barely noticeable back rubs.

 

I hope they can keep it up. I'm really not looking forward to the episodes where Oliver and Felicity split up for Reasons and worse, start dating other people.

 

 

Man what a wonderful scene where Oliver where Oliver told Thea he was proposing and wanted to use Moira's ring. You know where he asked if she was ok with him using it and they reminisced over their mom. So great.

Oh wait...that wasn't on screen? It was just in my head?

It's there on the "My Head Canon" reel, along with the scenes of  Diggle supporting Felicity in s3 and Laurel and Sara being loving sisters.

 

The only parent of Thea's that matters these days is Malcolm.  Robert who?  Walter who?

[BkWurm1]

I believe I was the one who came up with that scenario when I was playing devil's advocate.  I was in a depressed, distrustful state where I was imagining how the EPs could force a ridiculous plot contrivance.  To clarify, I do not want that to happen at all.

Ha! That's right, now I remember. I did mistakenly repeat your worst case scenario but there were variations of if being suggested elsewhere, though those obviously were so bad that my mind must have chosen to block the details and only rember the horror. ;)

[wonderwall]

More on my previous thoughts about Felicity being so overwhelmed with emotion and pride for Oliver:

 

[lion10]

The thing with Campbell is, well, it's a male-centric approach to heroism. It's pretty sexist. And the woman the hero loves is mostly treated as his reward after the ordeals.

 

[Which is also tied to WHY both damseling, and the use of the women in refrigerator trope are so widespread in all fiction ever -- if the woman is the prize, it means she's also the hero's most cherished possession [because the woman is an object if she's a prize], hence putting her in danger [for later saving] or killing her as the ultimate ordeal the hero has to overcome.

 

A feminist approach to the hero's journey has GOT TO subvert that. The "hero must stand alone" trope is oftentimes used in conjunction with damseling or fridging -- the hero decides to be a #foreveralone hero because he doesn't want his girlfriend in danger, or the girlfriend is injured/killed as a motivator to #foreveralone.

 

Arrow has already subverted those things with Oliver/Felicity, because she's not only the inspiration to his journey -- she's also a mentor, and a partner in the journey itself. The show has also kinda already proved that Oliver is better when he has teammates, so a lone hero stand at this point would be going backwards. Oliver doesn't have to do any of this alone, and more importantly -- he doesn't want to.

 

[Which actually means that killing Felicity is also going backwards in his journey, and even worse -- it's going backwards to Campbell's original sexist take on the woman in the hero's life. She would be once again reduced to an object to be possessed, and lost.]

 

How is the "Hero's Journey" sexist and what would be a female-centric hero's journey?  Based on what I just read it appears fairly gender neutral to me.  And while standing with others is good, there's a certain strength and power in being able to ultimately stand alone when needed.  I of course hate the "fridging" trope to drudge up some manpain as much as the next guy as I find it insulting to the female character in question and lazy writing.  I like Olicity's relationshiip and I like Felicity as her own character but some of the greatest moments in the series have been when Oliver has stood "alone" to face an enemy.  Whether that be Ra'as or Slade or Merlyn.  I do wonder what is it that Oliver gives Felicity that improves her in some way?  I guess he makes her bolder.  Does Tommy's death count as a fridging?

 

1.        THE ORDINARY WORLD.  The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma.  The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history.  Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress.

2.        THE CALL TO ADVENTURE.  Something shakes up the situation, either from external pressures or from something rising up from deep within, so the hero must face the beginnings of change.

3.        REFUSAL OF THE CALL.  The hero feels the fear of the unknown and tries to turn away from the adventure, however briefly.  Alternately, another character may express the uncertainty and danger ahead.

4.        MEETING WITH THE MENTOR.  The hero comes across a seasoned traveler of the worlds who gives him or her training, equipment, or advice that will help on the journey.  Or the hero reaches within to a source of courage and wisdom.

5.        CROSSING THE THRESHOLD.  At the end of Act One, the hero commits to leaving the Ordinary World and entering a new region or condition with unfamiliar rules and values.

6.        TESTS, ALLIES AND ENEMIES.  The hero is tested and sorts out allegiances in the Special World.

7.        APPROACH.  The hero and newfound allies prepare for the major challenge in the Special world.

8.        THE ORDEAL.  Near the middle of the story, the hero enters a central space in the Special World and confronts death or faces his or her greatest fear.  Out of the moment of death comes a new life.

9.        THE REWARD.  The hero takes possession of the treasure won by facing death.  There may be celebration, but there is also danger of losing the treasure again.

10.      THE ROAD BACK.  About three-fourths of the way through the story, the hero is driven to complete the adventure, leaving the Special World to be sure the treasure is brought home.  Often a chase scene signals the urgency and danger of the mission.

11.     THE RESURRECTION.  At the climax, the hero is severely tested once more on the threshold of home.  He or she is purified by a last sacrifice, another moment of death and rebirth, but on a higher and more complete level.  By the hero’s action, the polarities that were in conflict at the beginning are finally resolved.

12.       RETURN WITH THE ELIXIR.  The hero returns home or continues the journey, bearing some element of the treasure that has the power to transform the world as the hero has been transformed.

[wonderwall]

I do wonder what is it that Oliver gives Felicity that improves her in some way?  I guess he makes her bolder.

 

Your post is an interesting POV.

 

But before I go to bed I just wanted to respond to this one bit because it was calling for me :p

 

Without Oliver, Felicity would still be that IT girl who's probably still looking for a purpose in life. Without Oliver, Felicity probably wouldn't have reconciled with her mother because his talk with her regarding Donna is a big reason why she went back to her in the first place. He gave her companionship. Oliver has, in Felicity's words, Opened up her heart in ways she never even imagined and you can see that in the way she supports him and how far she goes for him. Without Oliver Felicity wouldn't have believed that she could do more with her life than just work in the IT department. Without Oliver opening up these opportunities for her, she probably wouldn't have become the strong, confident woman she is today. Oliver gives Felicity happiness, and hopefully we'll see him support her more as the season goes.

 

I don't think that all Oliver did was make Felicity 'bolder'. Oliver gave Felicity so much more than she imagined.

Edited October 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[TyranAmiros]

Dredging up some memories from that course on Arthuriana I did in college, if I remember correctly, most of the antecedents/basis for Cambpell's Hero's Journey involved male protagonists. Often the love interests have little to no agency or choice--they function as quest objects for the male hero. It's been a while, but I remember discussing sexism in the archetypes involved in the Hero's Journey.

Oliver on the Island is a classic hero's journey in many ways:

Season One

1. Oliver as playboy, sister-swapper

2. Father tells him to right his wrongs.

3. Oliver and Fyers

4. Yao Fe/Slade

5. Overcoming Fyers, hooking up with Shado

Season Two

6. The entire season two arc, esp. Shado and Sara, falling out with Slade. Arrival in Hong Kong.

Seasons Three-Four

7. Amanda Waller/ARGUS enter Oliver's life. Oliver is trained to torture. Oliver is sent back to Lian Yu.

8-9. Presumably the flashback story for this season

Season Five

10-11. Presumably the flashback story for this season.

Season One (Real Time)

12. Oliver returns home as vigilante.

Oliver makes Felicity better by giving her something to strive for. Not Oliver himself (though those abs...), but his purpose and cause of making Starling City a better place. He's got focus and direction and he's grounded. He needs help in places she can help him--he's practically begging for a partner with a bit of imagination and insight and he's good at actually considering what she's saying. Knowing that your partner doesn't dismiss you because you didn't go through the same life experience is important. And he can cook.

[thegirlsleuth]

I was just working with the Hero's journey model on writing project recently, which a lot of different people have stripped down and turned into different forms of story modeling. While the writers on this show can make some really cockamamie choices plot and character wise--see season three--they've done a good job of getting Oliver's overarching hero's journey really right, both within the seasons and within the series.  It is one of the reasons I hope that they stick with their 5 - 6 year plan--I can see the frame of what their doing right now, and I really don't want it to turn into a Supernatural/Smallville situation where they stagnate Oliver so they can all collect residuals.  I think you can see where Diggle is his current day mentor (although Oliver is moving into the mentor role at this point) and Felicity is his current day ally/inspiration.  

 

If this show were named "Smoak",  and we had followed her story in more depth, I think we would have seen how Felicity reached for heroism with Cooper only to have it blow up. She would have retreated after that, and then we would watch Oliver bring it out in her again, almost against her will, as she goes from only doing things to save Walter to refusing to leave during the undertaking, whereupon she'd embrace the hero's role.  As much as this is Oliver's story, and I'm fully on board with that, I think they give hints that both Diggle and Felicity started their hero's journey earlier than Oliver, but he helped them embrace their role. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by thegirlsleuth

[dtissagirl]

How is the "Hero's Journey" sexist and what would be a female-centric hero's journey?  Based on what I just read it appears fairly gender neutral to me.

 

I don't think a female-centric hero's journey would apply here, because imo that would make the hero of the journey a woman [-centric = protagonist].

 

What I said is that a feminist approach [completely different thing] to a male-centric hero's journey [which Arrow is, and which is the sum of the majority of all hero's journeys stories ever] needs to treat the female characters as more than just an object to lose, or the prize after conquering the journey. That's Campbell's view. Arrow has been subverting it, pretty awesomely if I say so, with Oliver and Felicity. They've embraced the feminist approach of a hero's journey with these two specific characters.

 

but some of the greatest moments in the series have been when Oliver has stood "alone" to face an enemy.  Whether that be Ra'as or Slade or Merlyn.  I do wonder what is it that Oliver gives Felicity that improves her in some way?  I guess he makes her bolder.  Does Tommy's death count as a fridging?

 

Malcolm not so much, although Dig was there helping, and Felicity was trying to stop the Earthquake machine, but to get Oliver to the point where he was able to fight "alone" against both Slade and Ra's, the show went with a feminist/subversive of Campbell's theory approach as to how to utilize Felicity. She was the one who de-mirakuru'd Slade so that Oliver could have a chance of a fair fight [they lose feminist points for having Laurel damseled for nothing, though]. And it was also Felicity the one who had to give the "fight to live" speech to Oliver [again! Dude never learns!] so he got into the mindset of killing Ra's, AND THEN Felicity had to legit be the hero -- even the symbolism of her wearing a superhero suit is there -- and save Oliver from the fall. Those are all subversions of Campbell's model.

 

Arrow really seems to consistently do it all right with Felicity, and Oliver/Felicity, in how they approach both the character and the relationship within a male-centric hero's journey.

Edited October 30, 2015 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

We now know that Quentin made the conscious choice to save his daughter Laurel over the lives of SC citizens and the future of his city.  But he's getting little criticism for wanting to protect a loved one - only understanding that he was trapped in a desperate situation.

 

Contrast that with last season when Felicity was criticized for wanting to save her loved one, Oliver - and she never even had to make a choice between him or SC citizens.  Instead she first helped save SC citizens and then, when she realized Ray was busy completing the save of SC citizens, she found another way to save Oliver as well.  (Also, as previously discussed, she got more flak than Barry, who did make the conscious decision to time travel back to his mother, even though he knew he was risking the futures and lives of billions of people.)

 

So was Quentin right or wrong in his choice?  When is it justified to choose a loved one over everyone else?

Edited October 30, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I think it's natural to want to save a loved one, and to do what you can to keep them safe and alive, and that if it were easy to just say "Screw 'em, my concern is for the greater good!" that they wouldn't be very interesting or sympathetic people.

I mean, in Felicity's instance, what would've happened if she just let Oliver die? What would people think of Quentin if he said, "Okay Darhk, do what you want to my daughter, my morals are more important." The struggle to protect your loved ones while working for the common good is what makes these stories interesting IMO.

I don't think Felicity was wrong, and I don't blame Quentin for wanting to protect Laurel. I would probably do the same thing in both scenarios.

[Sakura12]

Oliver telling Quentin to stop hiding behind his daughters is rich. Oliver hides behind his thinking he's protecting people all the time. That's what led to his idiotic decisions all last season. And hahahaha at Laurel being to handle herself from Darhk. Sara who was much more trained died. Laurel gets knocked so easily as we saw again in the last episode. 

[lion10]

We now know that Quentin made the conscious choice to save his daughter Laurel over the lives of SC citizens and the future of his city. But he's getting little criticism for wanting to protect a loved one - only understanding that he was trapped in a desperate situation.

Contrast that with last season when Felicity was criticized for wanting to save her loved one, Oliver - and she never even had to make a choice between him or SC citizens. Instead she first helped save SC citizens and then, when she realized Ray was busy completing the save of SC citizens, she found another way to save Oliver as well. (Also, as previously discussed, she got more flak than Barry, who did make the conscious decision to time travel back to his mother, even though he knew he was risking the futures and lives of billions of people.)

So was Quentin right or wrong in his choice? When is it justified to choose a loved one over everyone else?

It's not justified but it is very understandable. I didn't know Felicity was getting criticized for saving Oliver given that she and Ray clearly worked out who would save the city and who would save Oliver beforehand. It's not like she stole the suit and didn't know Ray had finished the miniaturization technology.

Logically, you should be willing to sacrifice someone you love for the greater good, but where does that leave you? Devoid of the person that makes life special for you?

What do you guys think of Oliver proposing to Felicity? Is it too soon or an appropriate time given all the things they've been through? And while it was obvious Felicity wasn't happy in suburbia, do you think Oliver would have been long term?

[tv echo]

I'd prefer that Oliver delay a proposal until the end of the season, but I'm okay if he proposes sooner (assuming that he proposes at all this season). I just don't want it to be a lead-up to something bad happening at the end of the season.

 

As for Oliver remaining content in suburbia, I think that in the long term he would've gotten restless and dissatisfied.  He enjoyed living a 'normal' life for the summer, after having endured 5 years in hell and then another 3 years battling one thing after another and recovering from PTSD, so it's understandable that it would take longer for him to reach that point of discontent. He couldn't just hang out in the house and neighborhood forever.

Edited October 30, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

What do you guys think of Oliver proposing to Felicity? Is it too soon or an appropriate time given all the things they've been through? And while it was obvious Felicity wasn't happy in suburbia, do you think Oliver would have been long term?

FTR - I have been on board with a proposal since before the premiere. Heck, if they had been quickie married over the break I probably would have been okay with that to a certain degree. I feel like long-term OQ would have been happy in suburbia because he adapts to situations. I think he might have missed helping people, but I think he would have found another outlet for that. I also think that FS would have found happiness in suburbia if perhaps they were closer to SC and living a hybrid life of suburbia & heroing. I think Ivy Town was just a little too remote or isolating for her. There's suburbia and then there is suburbia.

[bijoux]

I think a proposal is fine either now or later on. Their relationship had never been about let's give it a go and see how it shakes out. Oliver was near tears seeing Felicity with baby Sara after one date and they started living together as soon as they actually got together. On the other hand, if there is no proposal soon, I won't see it as any reflection on their commitment to one another.

[AyChihuahua]

Do EPs like ship wars?  I mean that as a general question, but also, do THESE EPs like ship wars?  I'm trying to figure out whether they're teasing O/L, or if they're just showing legit GA/BC fighting together stuff.  (To be clear, I do not believe they're actually going to do O/L again, I'm just curious whether they would intentionally tease it.)

[bijoux]

In general I do think EPs like ship wars and see it as a way to generate interest. I don't know about these EPs though.

[lexicon]

Well WM and MG, I'm not sure. AK...I'd say definitely. IMO he goes beyond liking ship wars, to outright ship baiting. This is based on what I see happening on the Flash  though, so I've no idea how much it'll influence Arrow

[kismet]

I think the writers/EPs are in a tough spot. They have two love stories to live up to and at times compete against each other on the screen. O&F are a great TV love story, seriously one for the ages (guest bit to main hero's LI). I don't read the comics, but it seems like the GA/BC love story also has quite the story & a following. So how do you show both in an organic way? Add to that the fact that onscreen chemistry (or lack thereof) are still important factors in making a good TV show. One pairing pleases a portion of the audience, while irritating another portion and vice versa. There is really no easy way to tell both stories, especially not the way they have gone about telling BC/LL's story. Olicity has had little pieces building a solid foundation to a larger and more important whole. Whereas BC's journey on Arrow has been haphazardly thrown together. They've made the choices they made and now they have to live with them. But I can see how they must feel a little caught between a rock & a hard place at times.

Edited October 30, 2015 by kismet

[tangerine95]

I don't think they're ship baiting.Laurel and Oliver barely interact except for doing stunts.I guess I just don't take stunts to mean much,they did them last season too.In interviews they can't stress friendship enough when talking about Oliver and Laurel.Having shipped couples on TVD where there was constant ship baiting,Arrow seems to me like the one of the few shows on the CW that picked a couple and puts all focus on them without teasing other ships.Even Flash ship baits so much it makes me glad AK is gone from Arrow.

[KenyaJ]

I don't think they're ship baiting.Laurel and Oliver barely interact except for doing stunts.I guess I just don't take stunts to mean much,they did them last season too.In interviews they can't stress friendship enough when talking about Oliver and Laurel.Having shipped couples on TVD where there was constant ship baiting,Arrow seems to me like the one of the few shows on the CW that picked a couple and puts all focus on them without teasing other ships.Even Flash ship baits so much it makes me glad AK is gone from Arrow.

ITA with this. I'm actually amazed by how little ship baiting there is by the Arrow writers. I don't think they'll publicly close the door on O/L, because it goes against every TV writer bible and also because you never know what kind of real life events might affect your show. But I've spent a lot of years parsing statements made by writers and EPs, and I've rarely felt as confident in endgame intentions as I do with Oliver and Felicity. It's obvious to me how much the writers enjoy writing Oliver and Felicity as a couple. Other than AK, I've never sensed the same level of enthusiasm from the writers with regard to Oliver and Laurel. And even in his case, I think it's more excitement about the comic versions of GA and BC than enthusiasm about Oliver and Laurel.

Anyway, bottom line, as long as EBR stays on the show, I have zero concern about Oliver and Laurel. And I don't think the writers actually want the headache that would be caused by ship baiting, Which is why I think they don't really engage in it.

Edited October 30, 2015 by KenyaJ

[dtissagirl]

I think Oliver would be happy in suburbia living a boring life, yeah. The only other adult life he really knows is surviving hell, and feeling overwhelmed by darkness.

 

What they haven't done yet on the show is Oliver finding joy in superheroing. I hope it happens this season. Funnily enough, Felicity has found joy in the vigilante stuff.

[AyChihuahua]

Anyway, bottom line, as long as EBR stays on the show, I have zero concern about Oliver and Laurel. And I don't think the writers actually want the headache that would be caused by ship baiting, Which is why I think they don't really engage in it.

I don't think they'd do Oliver and Laurel even if EBR left.  I think they'd bring in someone else.  At this point the anti-chem is so bad that I personally think SA and KC must dislike each other.  And I am entirely sure that SA dislikes LL/LL's stories.  

 

I've never really been much of a shipper, I guess.  Like I love BtVS, but who Buffy dated was not a concern of mine; I just wanted her to be happy.  I watched The Vampire Diaries in S2 and S3, but didn't care that much who she was with (whatshisname brother bored me to tears, but he was mostly a good bf, and Elena and Damon were smoking hot, but Damon was a fairly terrible person, and then I just drifted away after the whole siring thing).  I don't really ship O/F, but they are cute together.  More importantly for me, I anti-ship O/L. 

[KenyaJ]

I don't think they'd do Oliver and Laurel even if EBR left.  I think they'd bring in someone else.  At this point the anti-chem is so bad that I personally think SA and KC must dislike each other.  And I am entirely sure that SA dislikes LL/LL's stories.

Yeah, I should clarify. I don't necessarily think they'd go back to O/L if EBR leaves. But I think it would at least be a consideration, in a way I don't think it is now, at all. And yeah, EBR or no EBR, I don't think SA could ever work up any enthusiasm for Lauriver. I don't attribute that to KC; I've just never sensed he has any affection for that pairing and its impact on Oliver, from a character standpoint.

[Sakura12]

I think if EBR left, they'd go with Oliver/New Character. I would even think they'd go back to Sara/Oliver before Laurel/Oliver. 

[looptab]

If EBR left, they'd go with Oliver/Diggle. :)

[wonderwall]

Here's a fun question. What would be your ideal version of a proposal? 

 

Mine would be when they're just doing something normal or having a quiet moment from all the crazy. Like they're cuddling on the sofa watching the fireplace after a long day and Oliver just asks her out of the blue. 

 

It highlights what I like about them. They're simple, no-nonsense, and normal. Well, as normal as can be. Which I really appreciate because Oliver and Felicity lead noisy, chaotic, abnormal lives.

[TyranAmiros]

Mayor Queen calls up CEO Smoak: I've got a proposal for you regarding the union of our joint interests.

[Guest]

My ideal proposal is just the two of them, alone, somewhere quiet, and I'd love if it was emotional, which probably means it'll be the complete opposite. LOL.

Also my other scenario is Oliver blurts it out over the comms & then asks again back at the lair when they're alone.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Guest

[bijoux]

If EBR left, they'd go with Oliver/Diggle. :)

  

It's only logical.

Mayor Queen calls up CEO Smoak: I've got a proposal for you regarding the union of our joint interests.

Hee.

[EmeraldArcher]

We know Oliver wants to propose, so I'd be thrilled if Felicity beats him to it. That would be unexpected because we're waiting for him now that we've seen the ring and have heard Thea jump to conclusions.

However it happens, I hope it's sweet and intimate during a quiet, private moment. I don't want it to be in reaction to danger or a close call. Given his obvious preparation (ahem, soufflés) for his first planned proposal, I'm guessing when it happens, it will be spur-of-the-moment.

[BkWurm1]

wonderwall, on 30 Oct 2015 - 3:06 PM, said:

Here's a fun question. What would be your ideal version of a proposal?

Mine would be when they're just doing something normal or having a quiet moment from all the crazy. Like they're cuddling on the sofa watching the fireplace after a long day and Oliver just asks her out of the blue.

It highlights what I like about them. They're simple, no-nonsense, and normal. Well, as normal as can be. Which I really appreciate because Oliver and Felicity lead noisy, chaotic, abnormal lives.

 

 

For them, normal would be during a mission or while out doing something.  He's tried the quiet night at home, just the two of them.  Now I think it will just come blurting out some time and that he's been carrying around the ring for weeks.

ITA with this. I'm actually amazed by how little ship baiting there is by the Arrow writers. I don't think they'll publicly close the door on O/L, because it goes against every TV writer bible and also because you never know what kind of real life events might affect your show. But I've spent a lot of years parsing statements made by writers and EPs, and I've rarely felt as confident in endgame intentions as I do with Oliver and Felicity. It's obvious to me how much the writers enjoy writing Oliver and Felicity as a couple. Other than AK, I've never sensed the same level of enthusiasm from the writers with regard to Oliver and Laurel. And even in his case, I think it's more excitement about the comic versions of GA and BC than enthusiasm about Oliver and Laurel.

Anyway, bottom line, as long as EBR stays on the show, I have zero concern about Oliver and Laurel. And I don't think the writers actually want the headache that would be caused by ship baiting, Which is why I think they don't really engage in it.

 

I'm of two minds.  They've made it clear that Oliver is 100% in love with Felicity and I feel the same has been for her, she's willing to be anywhere and live any life as long as he's there too.  They've also with the engagement ring, gone into this relationship, pedal to the metal. 

 

And that makes me a bit uneasy.  They didn't have to hit that emotional beat so fast.  So in bringing it up, it feels like the next natural step is to take it away.  But how?  Would any of us believe that one or the other would fall out of love or that they would start lying or betraying them?  I know I don't.  So since I have no example of any show ever going all in and staying there without at least once pulling them apart after an engagement, that tells me, something is still going to happen. 

 

But if last season was them learning NOT to push the other away or lie or keep secrets to "protect" them, and I believe it was, then what could get in the way?  My list is short.  Mind control, amnesia, death. 

 

Mind control and amnesia would be very hard to endure, but survivable.  So if either of those pop up, yep, I'd say Olicity is endgame.

 

BUT there is the slight chance that TIIC do want to do a BC / GA romance. Clearly Oliver and Laurel was/is a bust, but have they figured out that BC and GA are also thus off the table?  I'm not 100% sure.  Does it make a lick of sense for this show?  Absolutely not, but there is a part of me that gets nervous by how all in Oliver is with Felicity.  The clues we have into his feelings says to me that the only way he would not end up with Felicity is if she was dead.  Anything else would be an obstacle to overcome.  So while I feel any attempt to do a BC/GA romance would be a disaster, do they know it? 

 

It all comes down to what way they want to end the show.  If it is their show and they want to make the best one they can, I feel like Olicity has to be endgame.  IF they intend to align to some version of comics, then there is a possibility that they have been both writing to honor what we've seen on screen (hence the epic love) but always with the plan to take it all away from Oliver and make him settle with BC.  It's not something we can really predict based on what we see on screen and thus I still have this tiny percent of ongoing concern.  Because at this point, about the only way they could destroy Oliver and Felicity is for Felicity to die.    

Edited October 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

He tries several times but keeps getting interrupted so Oliver finally grabs his bow and fires an arrow across the room with the ring on it. It's one of those USB arrows from the first season and turns on the computer and the words WILL YOU MARRY ME? light up on the screen.

[Chaser]

It's amusing and rather annoying that this week is going kind of how I imagined it would. Talk of big Oliver and Laurel scenes. Suddenly they could be doing this and they could be doing that. 

 

I don't see the GA and BC stunts as anything more than a mixture of narrative (teammates) and the literal definition of fan service. I could look at that and think about the comics and the fanboys and drive myself crazy. Or I can think about MG saying they weren't doing a romantic relationship, KC's change of tone, SA talking about Olicity being together and the importance of establishing platonic relationships, SpeedWeed tweets clearly friendzoning Oliver and Laurel, etc., etc., etc... so much etc.

 

But sure, nothing is set in stone and anything could happen and GA and BC could be the end game. I would consider it the most bizarre storytelling I have ever seen. Say that in S2 they decided to go for Olicity for the next couple seasons but eventually go back to Oliver and Laurel in the end. They would have had to look at their show's most popular character and decide to screw her over. Oliver would have to be the one to end the relationship so no one would think he was settling for Laurel. Or they could decide that the audience wouldn't want to watch Oliver break up with her so they decide to kill off Felicity. I can't imagine that pitch would go over well.

 

It's not that much different now. Say they decided they could get away with going back to Oliver and Laurel. It would still require screwing over Felicity, who is still registering as a fan favorite. And instead of going with the break up, they go with the kill? But prior to that they talk rings and marriage and trust it enough to give it a lot of promotion (the media latches onto anything proposal)....only to kill her off and have him get back with the ex. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

 

I think a lot of people treat a possible Felicity death like a Olicity v Oliver and Laurel thing (mostly because that seems to be the only reason people think they would kill her for). But Felicity is more than that ship. You would also be killing OTA. That dynamic can't be replaced. There are a lot of fans who don't care about Olicity, who may even dislike the ship, but who love OTA. There is a vibe that is unique to EBR and Felicity, that's outside of any ship. 

 

Sidenote: I go back and forth on the proposal. I like her asking, I like him asking, I like private, I like over the comms. All is good.

Edited October 31, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

 

BUT there is the slight chance that TIIC do want to do a BC / GA romance. Clearly Oliver and Laurel was/is a bust, but have they figured out that BC and GA are also thus off the table?

I don't really understand how they get GA/BC together successfully.  GA is still Oliver and BC is [we're being told] still Laurel.  Oliver is still SA and Laurel is still KC.  They've done that, in S1, and it was a disaster.  I mean, would they always be in costume, to try to cover up the anti-chem?  (That hasn't really worked so far in just their friendly action scenes.)  I really don't understand how that would work.

 

 

But sure, nothing is set in stone and anything could happen and GA and BC could be the end game.

For me it's not an end game question.  I don't believe they'll get O/L together again, and I don't believe they'll kill Felicity for that or any reason.  I do think ship-baiting is obnoxious and childish.  And most importantly, I simply dislike O/L scenes, and Laurel scenes in general.  At this point, while I don't hate Laurel nearly as much as I hate Ray, I certainly dislike her, and I strongly dislike O/L scenes.  The next episode has a lot of O/L scenes, and more Teflon Laurel, and Lance family drama, and I can't take it anymore.  Any of it.  So as much as I was looking forward to Constantine's episode, I am not watching it.  I'll youtube any good scenes, I guess, or watch it on Hulu long after my viewing could contribute to any ratings (I don't know how Hulu Plus viewings contribute, but I would guess they're tracked in some way), with my FF button handy.  

Edited October 31, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[thegirlsleuth]

I think that Oliver's botched attempts at proposals will continue through the first half of the season until everyone, up to and including Thea, Diggle, Laurel, Lance, Donna Smoak, Ray, Barry Allen, and very probably Damien Darhk know he's trying to pop the question.  He'll have a big thing planned at Christmas in episode 3.09, probably in a Christmas ornament despite the fact that Felicity is Jewish because the man is a sentimental fool.  After that's disrupted--I hope by a kidnapping!--he'll end up shouting at her during a big rescue in episode 3.10.

 

Here's where I get worried.  I don't think the wedding will happen until episode 100 as part of a big crossover extravaganza--masks everywhere!--which means a long delay.  When Oliver was the delay in season three people became really annoyed by their relationship.  If Felicity is the holdup, I worry she will be the target of people's anger.  I can't figure out why she would except for the ever popular SECRETS reason, and people will resent the melodrama.

 

 

I don't really understand how they get GA/BC together successfully.  GA is still Oliver and BC is [we're being told] still Laurel.  Oliver is still SA and Laurel is still KC.

 

As a person who only watches The Flash when forced to by crossovers, I keep hearing about multiverse stuff with multiple Flashes.  Is there any chance they would bring in another Black Canary from another universe--essentially replacing Katie Cassidy and solving the Amell/Cassidy problem--and hook her up with Oliver?  Please don't mistake this as a suggestion on my part.  I find myself amazed at the breathless degree to which I ship Oliver and Felicity.

Edited October 31, 2015 by thegirlsleuth

[kismet]

I don't want to hypothesize what the proposal is going to be like. But I love so many of everyone's suggestions. It's rare for me to not want to, but I just want it to be surprised. I also want it to be intimate & reflective of their relationship. There are so many good ways to do it... Please do not drop the ball writers!!

 

I do not think the writers will have another failed attempt. I think the next one will happen without a glitch, at most they might have 1 glitch/delay but then fix it within the same episode - but it is not going to drag onto another episode.

 

If they get engaged by winter and then married in the 2016 Fall crossover I think that is a realistic time frame. I do not think the audience will freak out. A typical engagement is usually a few months to 1.5 yrs. It might actually be perfect timing. There are believable ways (that are not the fault of either person) to delay a wedding that will not trigger the wrath of the audience, even though I doubt a delay will even be needed. The audience was mad in s3 because OQ refused to be with FS when it became obvious that they were only being kept apart for angst. But I think as long as the writers feed a few tidbits of wedding prep over the in between months the appetite for the general audience & fans will be satiated.

 

As for GA & BC getting back together later in the series - never say never, but it's not a good bet right now. It's always on the table, but that's a pretty big table with many other options that they are probably more likely pursue first (esp if KC remains on as LL).

Edited October 31, 2015 by kismet

[quarks]

Here's where I get worried.  I don't think the wedding will happen until episode 100 as part of a big crossover extravaganza--masks everywhere!--which means a long delay.  When Oliver was the delay in season three people became really annoyed by their relationship.  If Felicity is the holdup, I worry she will be the target of people's anger.  I can't figure out why she would except for the ever popular SECRETS reason, and people will resent the melodrama.

 

 

As a person who only watches The Flash when forced to by crossovers, I keep hearing about multiverse stuff with multiple Flashes.  Is there any chance they would bring in another Black Canary from another universe--essentially replacing Katie Cassidy and solving the Amell/Cassidy problem--and hook her up with Oliver?  Please don't mistake this as a suggestion on my part.  I find myself amazed at the breathless degree to which I ship Oliver and Felicity.

 

I've known several couples who went a year or two between the official engagement and the wedding, usually so they'd have enough time to plan the wedding or, in one case, because they were on a wait list for a spot at a very specific location (a castle).  And a year between engagement and wedding also happens on a lot of TV shows. The only reason why it might be a bit odd on Arrow is that this show loves to go zip zip zip through plot, so for once, going at a more normal pace might seem a bit odd, but it's not really odd in real life.

 

Regarding an alternate Black Canary from another universe - so far, over on Flash, the people who have appeared from Earth-2 look exactly like their Earth-1 counterparts, so if another Black Canary popped over from Earth-2, this Black Canary could look just like Laurel Lance or Sara Lance, not really changing things. BUT HOWEVER BUT Flash also said that on Earth-2 people follow different destinies, which is why the person who got super-speed on that planet is Jay Garrick, not Barry Allen, so it's possible that whoever became the Black Canary over on Earth-2 is a completely different person as well. It would not be completely out of the question for Arrow to pull something like this, especially since at least so far Flash fans seem happy with Earth-2 (ratings/viewers have remained pretty steady) but since Arrow ended its previous attempt to bring in an alternative Black Canary by first killing her off, and now, shipping her off to another show, I don't see it happening at any time soon. Maybe in season 8 or something if Arrow continues for that long. Maybe.

[tv echo]

Now all this talk of alternate universes has me thinking of Stargate SG-1, where in an alternate reality O'Neill and Carter were a couple (which they weren't in our reality).

[dtissagirl]

Now all this talk of alternate universes has me thinking of Stargate SG-1, where in an alternate reality O'Neill and Carter were a couple (which they weren't in our reality).

 

They were a couple in every other reality ever, but the US Air Force wouldn't let them do it in the main timeline.