Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

quarks · April 24, 2014

Starting this thread because I figured we needed one given the hints of upcoming Oliver/Laurel (auugh) and Oliver/Felicity, requiring jumps between threads. So here I go:

1. Couple I am now seriously shipping: Thea and Sin! Ok, granted, in show Thea's been presented as straight, and we've had one hint about Sin that wasn't really spelled out and could mean anything. However, that kinda major thing aside, who was the only person to tell Thea the truth this episode? Sin! (Yes, yes, Moira was interrupted by a car crash but MY POINT REMAINS.) Who was the person Sin turned to for help? Thea! And when Sin saw Sara threaten the love of Thea's life with a gun, what did Sin do? She willingly put herself in front of a gun to make Thea happy!

(Ok, that is not actually what happened in that scene, but that's the interpretation that I have in my little brain and I'm sticking to it.)

And now that they have both lost mother/sister figures and need comfort, this ship writes itself!

2. Couple I just started kinda shipping but feel kinda bad about: Thea and Diggle! Yes, yes, the age difference. Yes, yes, the not so small fact that they've never shown any onscreen interest in each other. Yes, yes, the not so small fact that they are both in love with other people in show canon. However! Diggle was the one person to try to actually talk to Thea this episode and almost seemed to be breaking through. Granted that's more because he's Diggle and less because of any shipping possibilities but still.

3. Couple I'm less seriously shipping: Oliver/Felicity. Yes, I ship them, but as I noted over in the Felicity thread, I really can't think of any fictional character less ready for a relationship right now than Oliver Queen except maybe Fitz in Scandal who needs to die alone, miserable and in severe pain, also slowly. Ok, maybe Theon in Game of Thrones.

But I'd have no problems with getting them together at some point next season - and getting them together permanently, so that this show can move on from "Who will Oliver Queen sleep with next" and stay with "Intrigue! Action! Motorcycle stunts!"

4. Couple I am absolutely, completely, not shipping at all: Oliver/Laurel.

I know there's been hints that the show is going to go back to exploring this in the next three episodes. In which case, why offer yet another scene that torpedoes this relationship and makes it look terrible. Now, to add to all of the other huge, huge barriers between them, we have the fact that Oliver cheated on her and got another girl pregnant and didn't tell Laurel about this. I mean, yes, I understand why he didn't, but the fact that Laurel could only figure out that Oliver was kinda down and mopey and not that, wow, Oliver was facing something pretty major, does not bode well for this relationship at all. It's especially bad since we just saw that yes, Oliver Queen is perfectly capable of staying faithful to someone, even if he only dated that someone for about three months, and that someone knows him a lot better than Laurel ever did. I'd even say it's very plausible that Sara knows all about the girl and the pregnancy, if not that the kid is alive; I know Laurel doesn't. That's a big problem right there.

Seriously, writers, this is one of the most toxic relationships on television right now. These characters are at a place where I am having difficulty understanding why they are even talking to each other - wishing each other well, sure, but that's it. But my real issue isn't that the relationship is so toxic - I mean, I watched Scandal this season and I'm watching Game of Thrones. I can deal with toxic relationships. It's that the show or the showrunners appear to be under the impression that this can be overcome. Scandal and GOT know better.

I hope I'm wrong, and that the showrunners do realize that Laurel/Oliver isn't working. But I don't have a lot of confidence.

5. Couple I'm shipping for all the wrong reasons: Zombie Merlyn and Zombie Moira! Come on - it could happen! For all we know, Merlyn was watching the whole thing and was just waiting for Oliver and Thea to stand up and walk away before swooping in, stealing Moira's body and rushing off with her to the Special Magical Pool of Reanimating Characters where Moira is now making plans for the next Christmas party and trying to find a gown that will completely hide her sword scars.

Happy Harpy · April 24, 2014

I agree that Oliver isn't ready for a relationship. Imo, he was never ready for a relationship to start with, although for different reasons. Not when he was a douche playboy, not when he was on Hell Island, and not since his return. Proof in hand: every single one of his relationships has been a disaster. Helena turned into a psycho, Isabel was already a psycho, McKenna got hurt, Shado got dead.

None of the Lance sisters is an option for me because incestuous swapping yuck yada, yada. Plus, the romantic chemistry is below zero imo with each of them, although Oliver/Sara do have some as friends and badass fighters.

Felicity is an option, actually she's the best option that I currently see. She really knows Oliver (I don't need the EPs to tell me that, I see it onscreen) qualities and flaws alike. There's trust between them, they respect each other, they're proud of each other. All this, I like. I see chemistry between them that could turn romantic. The moments that can be seen as romantic between them were imo flowing naturally with the show and well integrated.

Nevertheless, I'm terrified that the writers will go there because Felicity is part of Team Arrow, and for me it's the core of the show. If they botch the relationship, Team Arrow is sunk and so is the show in my eyes. I'm afraid that if it turns romantic, they'll change the nature of the relationship to make it toxic in the way Laurel/Oliver is imo, to do some clichéd will they-won't they as they did during the Russian episode. She has to stay his friend, someone he likes and respects and can rely on; plus the writers would need to be extra-careful to keep the balance in Team Arrow with Diggle.

So I'm not against them growing closer little by little, but certainly not now because it would be a disaster as long as Oliver isn't ready and fully "detoxed".

And for the record, if Felicity is Robert Queen's daughter, I will stop watching and not come back. I'll take it as a lack of respect for the viewers. There were sexual innuendos and Felicity admitted candidly ogling at Oliver's body on the salmon ladder. There's so much incestuous undertone I can take.

I see what you mean with Diggle and Thea, the chemistry they had was different than the very brotherly -imo- Felicity/Diggle. The age difference is still a problem for me, though. I found that D.Ramsey has good chemistry with C.Lotz, too.

They got me with Thea/Roy. I ship them. I want them back together. I love the Thea/Roy/Sin friendship and hope that no love triangle will come and ruin it.

I like Diggle and Lyla very much.

I'm interested in Nyssa/Sara, too, especially since the latter insisted that she stayed because she loved Nyssa, not because she had to.

Where do I sign for Zombie Merlyn and Zombie Moira? They were such great, great partners and foes. I hope I'll see them in the flashbacks.

At one point, I would have liked to see Quentin and Moira thread around a relationship.

Finally, I ship Laurel with the Grim Reaper, or with a galaxy far, far away.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Happy Harpy

BkWurm1 · April 24, 2014

I'm not at active shipping stage but instead of Thea/Sin I wondered if the show would try a Roy/Sin pairing somewhere down the road. Sin was pretty awesome last night in Seeing Red. Also a little heartbreaking. Her faith that Sara wasn't a killer was painfully poignant.

I've always maintained Sara and Oliver were a bad fit in the long term but I want to ship Sara with someone. She deserves to be loved first, above all else, and by someone who can help Sara into her own light. Not sure who that is yet. Nyssa would need to undergo some dramatic changes in her life before she would qualify and so far there is no other option. I was glad to see the break up but hated to see Sara so alone.

I do ship Olicity but as an end game. I agree, getting them together now would not work but I'd be happy if Oliver just shied away from all romance and concentrated on building himself up and in the process if the Olicity friendship strengthened, that's all good. :) I actually welcome shippy little anvil-licious moments but only if they are not given out to every possible relationship iteration available to Oliver. I do not like being played for a fool which of course with comic cannon hanging overhead very well might be happening. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Sigh.

Based on some producer interview comments, I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of end of the world kiss is slipped in only for both to agree it was a bad idea and go back to being friends. This gives me mixed feelings. On most any other show the two steps forward, one step back is part of the dance to bring characters together, but when there are multiple love interests it can be a meaningless tease which will only piss me off. See my thoughts on playing the fool again.

Edited April 24, 2014 by BkWurm1

Zalyn · April 24, 2014

Yay new thread! Hopefully it's okay to talk about non-romantic/non-sexual relationships a bit?

I also noticed some good Sin and Thea interactions, and I see some good potential for an interesting relationship-friendship between them. They have some background in common, but are contrasting enough to where there are great opportunities for fun dialogue. Also, they can keep momentum going on Roy's story since they're both concerned about his well-being.

"Seeing Red" confirmed to me that Diggle, like chocolate, goes with everyone. He just makes everyone better; but I worry that he'll just be used as a sounding board and won't get to develop himself independently. I'll just keep crossing my fingers and hope there.

I definitely love the chemistry between Felicity and Oliver as people, but I agree that this is just not a good time for them (or any romance, frankly). In fact, I'm beginning to think this show is anti-romance; so many relationships end up in the most cynical sort of place. And while Thea and Roy had some good potential in terms of being in a place of mutual attraction, I really don't see anyone else there because everything, not just Oliver, is toxic right now, as has been mentioned.

I admit, I'm a slo-mance type who likes to see a relationship be earned and built over time together.

icandigit · April 24, 2014

I guess I still have the residue from cheesy 80's sticoms but I really like the stuff with Ollie and Speedy. I'm supposed to be freaked out by Slade this season, but my main concern was when the Merlin secret was gonna drop. I keep hoping there will come a time when they can come to some understanding. Okay, i really just want her to know he's the Arrow, because I think she can be a support for Oliver and be the annoying sister that gets in the way.

The other relationship I'm embarrased about liking is Laurel and Detective Lance. While I generally hate-watch most scenes with Laurel, I have enjoyed some of their scenes. Maybe I'm just a sucker for father daughter relationships. I still really miss Tommy, I like seeing Oliver and Tommy trying to be friends like they were, but both haveing grown up over years. You could tell Oliver was trying to connect to who he used to be.

millahnna · April 24, 2014

I would love to see platonic Thea and Sin developed. I like what we saw of their Roy connected bond and they are in a similar age group. Not that age is one of my strictest thingies for desire to see a friendship explored or anything it just sort of dawned on me that there weren't many years between them.

BkWurm1 · April 25, 2014

From the Felicity thread:

I think Felicity has to be the long term romantic partner for Oliver, what with the way the writers seem to protect their relationship from any of the angst and drama, and the way that the idea of Oliver needing someone "better" and who can "bring light". No one else fits that bill,

I absolutely see this but what I worry about is if the show runners understand that the lack of angst is a good thing. I half expect them to think the more crap they throw at the Laurel/Oliver ship (oh, little things like sister swapping, perennial cheating, trying to kill him, dating his best friend, being each others blind spots aka not knowing each other better than anyone) the more invested the viewers will be in a payoff.

I get obstacles delaying a pairing but they need to be organic and grounded in character like Oliver needing to get to a better place before he is capable of being in a stable relationship. The reasons why he shouldn't be in a relationship with Laurel goes so far beyond his current instability. Two years of reasons why they shouldn't be together has already made it a toxic ship IMO and any future hook up and break ups will only make it worse.

I guess what I ultimately fear is that the show will spend years showing us that Felicity represents the brightness in his life only for Oliver to one day say to Laurel, "You are the light in my darkness." and cue the showrunners patting themselves on the back for being so clever to line it up like that. Cause, you know, the name.

I want to be in this thread pointing out all the little moments that show the growth and progress of the Felicity/Oliver relationship. Like how two episodes back when Oliver was at his lowest (well, as of then) Felicity (and Diggle but I just don't see him swinging that way) not only knew where he'd be but made sure she was there to give hope back to the hopeless. Hell, he even used her plan. I want to again say how adorable I found that scene where Oliver bounded down the stairs full speed, never doubting Felicity was going to be there to catch him and that he actually leaned on her, knowing she could bear the heavy weight. I want to go all gooey but every time I start letting my mind go there, I remember I'm probably fooling myself and get all pissy.

The other relationship I'm embarrased about liking is Laurel and Detective Lance. While I generally hate-watch most scenes with Laurel, I have enjoyed some of their scenes. Maybe I'm just a sucker for father daughter relationships.

I'm at the stage where I actively wish any scene Laurel has with Quentin could be swapped out for Sara but yeah, I'm with you, KC and PB have pulled off some great scenes. She's almost like a different character with her dad. I buy into the caring and worry and complicated history between them. Like when he thought he and Dinah might get back together and he wanted to woo her with his chicken and Laurel not only agreed to the family dinner but to host it as well. There was real love portrayed there. Right up until she drunkenly (though she didn't seem drunk at all- so I am holding a grudge) humiliated him.

CabotCove · April 26, 2014

Im glad Sara is out of a relationship with Oliver, but not for the reasons some may think the "I'm a killer, you deserve someone better" crap thats just character regressive nonsense Imo. Between the Oliver/Laurel OTP delusion, Oliver/Felicity pandering, possibly upcoming baby mama drama and whatever else love interest will show up next season, Sara deserves better than to be buried in all this mess. She just needs to be far far away from Oliver and his bed, his current state of life is a mess, the writing also seems to be with all the ship baiting. I vote for a road trip for her and Sin, going around the country kicking ass and taking names.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Conell

BkWurm1 · April 26, 2014

Im glad Sara is out of a relationship with Oliver, but not for the reasons some may think the "I'm a killer, you deserve someone better" crap thats just character regressive nonsense Imo.

I tend to think too that Sara was using the "I'm a killer, you should be with someone not dragging you back down into the darkness" as an excuse she latched on to substitute for something she found a bigger problem. I do think she felt there was a disconnect between she and Oliver's way of thinking but I think it was just a sign of a bigger disconnect between them. They were together but all we've seen them do is disagree. Their disagreements were all very civil and reasonable to have but I think it showed that they weren't on the same page. Their degree of patience with Roy's situation was just another symptom of Oliver and Sara not being quite the right fit.

I think Oliver clearly cares a lot for Sara and she's important to him and he doesn't want to see her disappear from his life again which is kind of what I think his suggestion they get an apartment together was about. He wants her around and he thinks it makes sense but even though he was making these plans, I found it interesting that when Sara asked him if he was asking her to move in together, something the show treated as a big meaningful step (at least to Laurel and meaningful enough to Oliver that he deliberately sabotaged it) Oliver couldn't seem to bring himself to actually say it and it looked to me like Sara was very disappointed.

I think what we were supposed to see was that Sara at that point already realized that Oliver wasn't in Love with her, that he was with her because of their past and convenience, not because they were good for each other. I think the Roy issue was just a final symptom of the whole bigger issue and Sara decided to end things rather than indulge an old crush that would only lead to heartbreak. She gave him an excuse that was easier to say than you don't love me. I do think she recognizes in herself that she needs to heal and leave behind her knee jerk reaction to solve a problem with killing and I do think she was disappointed that she couldn't really live up to Sin's expectations but I don't think she broke up with Oliver only because he's more of an optimist than her.

Edited April 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

quarks · April 26, 2014

Although overall I'd say that the Oliver/Sara relationship could be best described as "undeveloped," I will say the show did an adequate lead up to the breakup, and I don't think it had much to do with varying levels of optimism, either.

As I noted elsewhere, the show pretty much went out of its way to not have them in scenes alone together. That this was even more deliberate than I thought came up in this last episode when Oliver said that the two of them were finally alone and in a bed. I'm not sure exactly when Oliver moved out of the mansion and into the cot in the Foundry, and I can readily understand that they didn't want to sleep together at Laurel's even if Sara was staying there, but Oliver only lost his fortune a couple of weeks ago and could have afforded a hotel up to that point. Even at this stage it looks like getting a hotel room isn't a problem. And when they were together they rarely physically touched each other and weren't particularly affectionate.

And when they did talk, they were often disagreeing. That in itself doesn't mean much - everyone disagrees with Oliver because the guy is so often really wrong - but where others (aside, understandably, from Thea in recent episodes) have all also been emotionally supportive - Laurel with her hug (sigh); Diggle and Felicity and Moira verbally - Sara rarely seemed to. And there's the issue that while Sara makes a great fighting partner for Oliver, she doesn't necessarily make him a better person. Since in theory at least he's on a hero's journey (and I'm pretty sure the show still intends that route for him, despite the teasing of "is Oliver a hero or not?" for the finale) that doesn't make her the best romantic partner for Oliver.

I do wish this relationship had actually been explored, though, rather than getting a couple of boring and depressing beats back in Suicide Squad and three short scenes in this episode, instead of getting treated as the Romantic Rival/Roadblock. This could have been a really fascinating relationship, and I think Sara as a character deserved better than this.

thuganomics85 · May 2, 2014

After yesterday's episode, had a few thoughts. First, the positive ones:

I really do love the relationship between Thea and Walter. Even though he was only her stepfather for a few years, you really do get the sense that Walt truly loves and care for Thea, and would do anything for her. In turn, I also really think that Thea loves Walt back, and looks up to him. I remember enjoying their relationship a lot in S1 (and how freaked out and upset Thea was when he disappeared), and I'm glad we briefly saw it again. Willa Holland and Colin Salmon really work well together.

With Ollie being a brooding mess, I liked that we got more Felicity/Diggle, and I really enjoy the bond they have. Both seem to know each other's strengths and weaknesses, and trust each other completely.

Unfortunately, since I sadly think the writers have decided to go back to Ollie/Laurel, can I just say that I don't think I will ever buy it. Even if Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy somehow managed to spark any kind of chemistry (right now, it feels like Amell goes through all of their scenes like he's powering through them and really wants to go to his next stunt scene or his next Felicity/Diggle scene, while I don't know what Cassidy is doing over half of the time), I think Ollie/Laurel's history is too fucked up. I know rocky relationships have been done before, but this is just ridiculous. Here we have Ollie, who has cheated on her multiple times when they were together. And, not with just one woman either. At the very least, there was two, including one he knocked up and another who was Laurel's freaking sister. With TV, I can maybe handwave someone forgiving an one-time fling or falling back into a relationship with an ex, but I never got the sense Ollie ever respected Laurel back then, and I really doubt his time over on the Island, would change things for the better.

But, while I give Ollie 95% of the grief for this, it still doesn't set right for me that the relationship was formed, only after Laurel saw Sara flirting with Ollie, removed Sara as competition, by calling the cops at a party, getting Sara grounded, and then making her move. It's just kind of a shady way to kick off a relationship. Don't get me wrong; Ollie and his serial cheating is my biggest issue, but Laurel's deceit just makes me feel like that relationship will never be healthy, no matter how long this show goes for.

KirkB · May 2, 2014

I agree that Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy have little to no chemistry. I've thought that since the pilot. Weirdly, he had way more chemistry with Willa Holland. Putting aside the comics, which I don't know nearly enough about to comment, I never saw Oliver and Laurel as a OTP. Not in the same way as Lois and Clark, for example. On the show, I can't understand what the hell Laurel saw in Oliver back in the day. Now? I could understand it. He's brave and actually seems to have a purpose. But now Oliver has more important things to deal with than deciding which Lance daughter to bang. Laurel should have a character arc outside of Oliver if they want to find a reason for her to be on the show, because right now she just seems to be spiraling back toward Oliver's bed and I really don't see the point.

Edited May 2, 2014 by KirkB

Sakura12 · May 2, 2014

They gave Laurel an arc outside of Oliver and it was boring and not many people care for it. Despite all the praise the producers give her they can't.seem to or don't care to write an actual storyline for Laurel so they should just cut their loss and get rid of her.

I found it interesting that when Sara asked him if he was asking her to move in together, something the show treated as a big meaningful step (at least to Laurel and meaningful enough to Oliver that he deliberately sabotaged it) Oliver couldn't seem to bring himself to actually say it and it looked to me like Sara was very disappointed.

I saw that scene differently. I didn't see Sara as disappointed, I saw it has her being uncomfortable because she's not at the stage right now. She cares about Oliver deeply like he does for her (they are bonded by something that no one else will ever understand) but she's not ready to settle down and unlike pre-island Oliver she made the better choice to end the relationship. Or maybe she realized she's still in love with Nyssa.

BkWurm1 · May 2, 2014

I saw that scene differently. I didn't see Sara as disappointed, I saw it has her being uncomfortable because she's not at the stage right now. She cares about Oliver deeply like he does for her (they are bonded by something that no one else will ever understand) but she's not ready to settle down and unlike pre-island Oliver she made the better choice to end the relationship

I can see how that scene could be read that way. She clearly goes still when Oliver mentions getting a place of their own. I was thinking she thought he was moving to fast until she tried to get him to specifically and directly ask her to move in with him, which Oliver wouldn't do. That request for him to say the words and his evasion are what led me to believe it was deeper than just Sara not being ready for a bigger commitment.

In the end, it doesn't matter if she wanted something more from Oliver or decided they were moving too fast, she still made the smart and hard choice to end things rather than drag everything out.

I think Ollie/Laurel's history is too fucked up. I know rocky relationships have been done before, but this is just ridiculous. Here we have Ollie, who has cheated on her multiple times when they were together. And, not with just one woman either. At the very least, there was two, including one he knocked up and another who was Laurel's freaking sister.

This goes along with Laurel's claim to know him soooo super well despite not having know his secret identity. I wouldn't hold not knowing Oliver was the GA against Laurel in terms of really knowing him if the show gave me any reason to think they even talked on the phone more than half a dozen times in the last 6 going on 7 years. A handful of dinners, a quick boff, a few chats at the coffee shop...this is the summation of their time together in the last 24 months since Oliver came back from the dead. There is nothing we've seen on television that suggests they are currently close or that they know each other. All they have is left over history from the past.

Yes, I can believe that they would always care for the other since they had in college what they considered a significant relationship. But over and over and over the show tells us Laurel was clueless as to who Oliver was before he went to the island and there is zero indication she has a clue as to what makes him tick right now. It's not about her not guessing he was the vigilante, it's about her not knowing the real man, then or now.

Her clams to the contrary are so at odds with what the show keeps showing as to break any suspension of disbelief. I shouted at my TV more than once during her speech in the cave. She claims to know him and know him better than anyone else. That is a boldfaced lie. I just can't tell if Laurel is telling it to herself or if the Producers are trying o sell that load of shit to me as a viewer.

I fear I know the answer but I'll leave my head buried in the ground at least through the end of this season.

+

Edited May 2, 2014 by BkWurm1

Morrigan2575 · May 2, 2014

It seems that disconnect isn't just the fans, I've seen reviewers commenting on that as well.

The other thing I find hysterical is that just about every review out there, talks about the Ra-Ra speech that Laurel gave and most actually point out that Laurel appealing to Oliver on an emotional level had no impact he didn't get into the fight because of her, he got back into fighting mode because she mentioned the connection between Slade/Blood and he finally realized that it's bigger than just him (FFS! some hero).

It's the same thing that happened when Laurel decided not to tell Oliver she knew he wasn't the Arrow...AK made is sound like it was this great emotional decision on Laurel's part that we'd all love her for it. Odd since it was actually Quentin who had the Commissioner Gordon speech, the wonderful, enlightening, emotional reason that we'd all love...wasn't hers.

I just don't get it, either there's a huge disconnect with what the EPs/Audience or they're just desperate to try and keep this character around (for whatever reason) and keep trying to force something. Maybe they figure that they can convince us to love her if they just keep lying about her/overselling her?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Morrigan2575

Danny Franks · May 2, 2014

I just don't get it, either there's a huge disconnect with what the EPs/Audience or they're just desperate to try and keep this character around (for whatever reason) and keep trying to force something. Maybe they figure that they can convince us to love her if they just keep lying about her/overselling her?

I don't get it either. Because they're the ones writing her. If they wanted her to have the big, decisive moments that show Laurel's strength and her understanding of Oliver... why didn't they give her those moments? They're the only ones who can. Yet she just tags along on the heels of other people, and yet we're told she's important.

'Disconnect' is the only appropriate description for it, because I just do not understand where the interviews and the actual writing intersect at all. As has been pointed out, the things Laurel does say are not true or credible, especially when it comes to Oliver. They have her give this, "I know you, Oliver" speech, after a season that has demonstrated just how little she truly does know and understand him, and how little she ever understood him. And also how little Oliver may have known about her, with the revelations of how she connived to keep him and Sara apart, and her drinking and lying about it.

Sara understood Oliver in ways no one else could, and Felicity has seen more of the post-Island Oliver than anyone else, without having pre-Island Oliver memories clouding her judgement. These two can lay claim to far, far greater understanding of Oliver Queen than Laurel can, and yet I still get the feeling that the writers wanted me to believe that speech from Laurel. And I don't know why.....

quarks · May 2, 2014

I'm not sure that an Oliver/Laurel relationship would ever work for me, but I can think of a few things that might at least help:

1. An explanation for why they got together in the first place. Any explanation. Do they have something in common? So far, if I recall correctly, we've learned that they both like ice cream. Otherwise, I'm at a loss. Did they like the same movies? The same sports? Was Oliver ever charming to her? In the flashbacks he keeps coming across as a complete jerk.

I can understand why Oliver and Sara got together - they both liked to drink and party. With Oliver and Laurel it sometimes seems as if Oliver got together with Laurel because he knew he could easily cheat on her and Laurel - thought he was cute?

2. Oliver being charming/nice to her in the present. I get that Laurel is all over him now because she's realized he's all brave and stuff with the Arrow. I also get that Oliver has also yelled at Felicity and Sara because Oliver yells at everyone. But he's also been nice/charming to them this season and seemed physically comfortable with both. He may not have touched Sara very much on screen while they were dating, but he rarely seemed physically stiff and uncomfortable in her presence.

With Laurel, Oliver has yelled at her, walked off from her, and seems to be stiff and uncomfortable every time she's in his presence. In just this last episode he snapped at her twice, and she had to to initiate what seemed to me to be a very one sided hug.

Of course Felicity is going to like a guy who winks at her and tells her that he's proud when she breaks into a prison security system, even if Oliver Queen has been a major jerk this season. I'll buy that. With Laurel it's a lot harder to believe, and that's even ignoring the sister swapping and the lying.

KirkB · May 2, 2014

I almost wonder if Oliver didn't get involved with Laurel in the first place because of a bet from Tommy or something. Like he hooked up with Sara at a club and Tommy dared him to go for the hat trick. Pre-island it seems like Oliver would sleep with pretty much anyone who was willing, and he didn't 'realize' his feelings for Laurel until he spent time on the island. Which is fine until we find out now at least part of that time he was there with Sara, who he genuinely appears to like and has far more chemistry with.

BumpSetSpike · May 2, 2014

Sara understood Oliver in ways no one else could, and Felicity has seen more of the post-Island Oliver than anyone else, without having pre-Island Oliver memories clouding her judgement. These two can lay claim to far, far greater understanding of Oliver Queen than Laurel can, and yet I still get the feeling that the writers wanted me to believe that speech from Laurel. And I don't know why.....

This! How can the writers not see what they themselves have created?!

Edited May 2, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

Danny Franks · May 2, 2014

Really, I can buy quite easily the idea that Oliver and Laurel were together before the island. If they knew each other when they were younger, then I could see Laurel always looking past what an ass Oliver was and telling people, 'he's a good guy, under the arrogant exterior. I know him'. That seems to be a fairly well worn trope, and it would definitely apply in this case. She thought he was a better guy than he was, and she thought she could eventually bring that out in him.

As for Oliver being with her? She was hot, and even though she was his girlfriend, he could apparently screw whoever he wanted. They've never really explained whether Laurel knew he cheated, but I find it hard to understand the timeline if she didn't. How does McKenna fit into things? What about that blond on his arm in the archive footage from the pilot episode? Along with Sara and Baby Mama, that's four girls other than Laurel that Oliver was involved with. And I feel it's been heavily suggested that he would fuck anything that moved.

Oh, the epic romance just about makes me swoon!

Zalyn · May 2, 2014

Oh, the epic romance just about makes me swoon!

You used the "E" word!

Logan: Come on, you know I'm not talking about Hannah. I thought our story was epic, you know, you and me.

Veronica: Epic how?

Logan: Spanning years and continents. Lives ruined, bloodshed. EPIC. But summer's almost here, and we won't see each other at all. And then you leave town... and then it's over.

Veronica: Logan...

Logan: I'm sorry about last summer. You know, if I could do it over...

Veronica: Come on. Ruined lives? Bloodshed? You really think a relationship should be that hard?

Logan: No one writes songs about the ones that come easy.

The thing is that this scene and dialogue was a payoff to nearly two seasons of intensive, in-your-face, hate-love, brutal honesty and scared deception. Additionally, Logan cuckooed the original main love interest because of Dohring's awesome chemistry.

By comparison, Arrow's EP didn't earn his OTP.

(I have a feeling that this thread is going to become a resource for all the great TV relationships we've enjoyed, simply in our attempts to identify how the relationships in Arrow could be fixed)

Edited May 2, 2014 by Zalyn

BkWurm1 · May 2, 2014

Logan: No one writes songs about the ones that come easy.

Still makes my heart go pitter-patter. I had to wait ten years but I got my payoff finally, though even if the Veronica Mar's Movie hadn't been made, I still would have known those two characters were meant for each other.

I really wonder if TPTB think by putting in the stuff like him being a semi-repentant man-whore and keeping massive secrets and the odd love child that they are just making a Oliver/Laurel match more spechul.

Alibelle · May 3, 2014

Having rewatched the Diggle and Felicity scenes (because, let's be honest, those are the only ones worth watching), I have to say that I'm even MORE irritated by Laurel's scene in the lair.

It's really weird how she has always been kind of dismissive of Felicity, and I can't remember her ever really interacting with Diggle, but the blocking of that scene made her just seem super super unlikable. She walked up, displaced Felicity from her spot by Oliver's side in a weird body language bullying way, and then proceeded to verbally dismiss the both of them as though they were basically the hired help and beneath her notice (she didn't so much as look at them at any point). And she did this so that, once again, she could point out how well she knows Oliver. SHE TOTALLY TOTALLY DOES NOT. Holy God, he was a terrible human being back when he was her boyfriend, and he really did NOT have any hidden heroic instincts. The show itself keeps underlining that she did not know him that well, or if she did, she has crazy bizarre taste. Like, probably the most positive thing we've seen pre-island Ollie do is not lose his temper when a pizza delivery guy couldn't break a hundred. And yet, this was the guy that she was planning on spending her life with?

- He was terrible at school [no idea what trigonometry is, is unfamiliar with Shakespeare, failed out of four colleges]

- He never bothered to even try, at anything, as far as we know really [even the parties we keep hearing about were ones Tommy threw]

- He slept around on her (A LOT) [at least ten people that Sara and Laurel know about, based on what I remember of their flashback scene on the couch]

- He slept with HER SISTER!!! (this deserves underlining)

- He impregnated some random nameless "good person"

- He was arrested for peeing on a cop's car

- He was regularly intoxicated.

And, as pretty as Stephen is, his pre-island wig manages to minimize the pretty significantly. So, really, the only real redeeming quality he seems to have had was his money. And if you start to look at Laurel as someone who is basically a gold digger, she starts to actually make sense. For a gold digger, the ends would justify the means. And it would explain why she has adopted this weirdly entitled, arrogant, lady of the manor attitude when dealing with the other people in his orbit, if she sees herself as the chatelaine of his life. She has invested an awful lot of time and patience into making Oliver hers. So looking at it that way, her constant insistence that she knows him better than anyone, starts to feel like she's trying to brainwash him into believing that, isolating him from the other people who might actually care about him.

We know that she targeted him, removed her sister from the equation by getting her grounded, and once she started dating him, she then ignored the other girls he would hook up with as unimportant (rather like Moira did for Robert). She bosses around "the little people" around him, and basically remains just really focused on her goal. She pretty much always comes across as cold and calculating, so much so that she's actually more than a little creepy at times. She doesn't have a lot of personal warmth, but she does have a lot of anger. And rage is the only emotion I remember seeing her exhibit spontaneously.

However, unlike Oliver, she is actually pretty good at putting on a front when she needs to. So if the writers are trying to make her a sneaky surprise villain, I'm all for it, and all the build up is DEFINITELY there. Like, how once she thought Oliver was dead, she turned to Tommy (the other billionaire she's acquainted with). Then, oddly, when Tommy lost all his money, she suddenly softened significantly in her attitude towards Oliver. Then Tommy died, and she and Oliver took a little break while he focused on moping, but she tried to pick right back up with him (in ep. 203 or so? Don't remember. Right around when Oliver found out Sara was still alive) once he was back around, and when Oliver rebuffed her, she became SUPER angry about it, really fast.

That's when she apparently turned to alcohol and decided to work on getting his mother life in prison. Which feels an awful lot like revenge to me.

And when that plan didn't pan out either, that's apparently when she really started hitting the substances hard and added pills to the mix. And when she found out her sister was actually still alive, she went super ragey. And she completely lost it, momentarily, when she figured out that Sara and Oliver were back together. But then suddenly, out of nowhere, she is super sweet to both of them, and is finding reasons to drop by and just give Oliver lingering hugs. Sara was also in suspicious motorcycle accidents and is covered in scars, but she doesn't rate lingering hugs. Laurel finds out he's the Arrow, and she doesn't appear to have any concerns about her sister (who is dating him). So she either doesn't care that Sara doesn't know, or she's figured out that Sara is Canary, and she is just uninterested. She doesn't ask her sister if Sara had been tortured during her time away, as she knows Oliver has been (from the lie detector thing). She basically evinces zero interest in Sara's life or what's she been through in the missing years. She just uses this info and bides her time to figure out the best way to insert herself back into Oliver's life. And suddenly it's not that weird that she decides to do it when her sister is out of town. As far as I know, no one knows that Sara and Oliver broke up.

So, like, if all of this is build up to a reveal that Laurel is actually a sociopathic gold digger, intent upon taking over the Queen fortune (because now that the stock prices have gone back up, these people seriously ARE NOT POOR, Jesus Christ, even if they're apparently super terrible at financial planning and diversification), then I am just going to have to give the writers a huge round of applause. Because that would be awesome, and would give Laurel's character real consistency. And heck, I think she'd have even earned the fortune, and will probably take better care of it than the Queens, who are apparently financial dunces.

I don't think I trust the writers to actually be doing this, since it would lead to a bunch of things making sense, and I'm not sure that sense-making is a goal of theirs. But Laurel as we've seen her on screen is really just not a sweet, likable, do-gooder, like she should be, as we've been told she is. She's driven, and angry, and fairly calculating. She is surprisingly cold in her interpersonal interactions. Supposedly she cares about the law, but we've seen plenty of times that this is actually not at all the case. And there's been so many times that it would be SO EASY to make Laurel really sympathetic, and for some reason the show has always chosen not to do that, that I'm just really really hoping that there's an actual plan in place there.

ETA:

I mean, just look at the dynamics in the double date scene with Helena and Tommy. She is impatient that Tommy can't get them a table quickly because she's hungry, and annoyed that he can't bribe his way into getting her what she wants. She's dismissive towards both Tommy and the hostess. Then she spies Oliver and basically invites herself and Tommy on their date, and proceeds to make it uncomfortable for Helena, and Tommy, by playing up how important she is to Oliver. It's just really bizarre if she's supposed to be a kind or thoughtful person. But it does make sense if she's a gold digger looking to control Oliver.

Sorry, that was insanely long.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Alibelle

statsgirl · May 3, 2014

Alibelle, I have long thought that the only way to make sense of Laurel is to see her as a gold-digger, but you've made the argument brilliant.

Unfortunately, I don't think the EPS see it this way at all.

Sakura12 · May 3, 2014

If Laurel/Oliver is their OTP they done a terrible job setting up why they even liked each other in the first place besides for superficial reasons. I get why Sara liked him, he was hot, older guy that liked partying and getting in trouble just like she did. But what did academic I'm-so-grown-up Laurel see in a dumb partying frat boy? She wasn't in love with him when she decided to make sure her younger sister never had a chance with him.

Sara knew exactly what kid of guy Oliver was, she knew he slept around and was not the brightest. She may have still had her crush on him and enjoyed taking him from Laurel. But in the flashbacks they pretty much showed us Sara just wanted to have fun and dumb drunk Oliver was probably fun.

They really should've had Oliver and his girlfriend Dinah go on the boat and he thinks she died. Then Dinah shows up in the second season as the LOA trained Black Canary. Basically Sara's whole story with no sister swapping.

writersblock51 · May 4, 2014

Alibelle, excellent points and write up. I'd actually be impressed if the show was going in that direction the entire time and it's part of some big reveal soon.

It would be refreshing in one way and heartbreaking in another (for Oliver, Quentin and Sara).

Sadly, I don't think it will happen that way. And while I agree with you that Laurel could EASILY be what you have beautifully described, I just don't think the writers, the EPs and the network have the slightest clue that she's perceived as anything other than Altogether Awesome And Ready to Be BC/Oliver's OTP.

KirkB · May 4, 2014

I agree with Sakura12. I think it would have been better if there was only one Lance daughter (does Sara even exist in the comics?) and everybody thought she died on the Gambit with Oliver. Then when Oliver comes back to Starling he can have tension with Quentin, reunite with Tommy, and form the power trio with Diggle and Felicity as he sets out to fix the city. Then late in season 1 the mysterious Black Canary shows up once or twice, and is revealed in season 2 to be the LoA trained Laurel (or Dinah, or whichever name they went with).

Sakura12 · May 4, 2014

No, Sara didn't exist in the comics. Dinah also never went by just Laurel, they gave her the middle name to differentiate between mother and daughter. So if they wanted the Black Canary she should've been named Dinah.

statsgirl · May 4, 2014

Sara knew exactly what kid of guy Oliver was, she knew he slept around and was not the brightest.

In other words, even Sara, who was presented as the not-so-smart daughter, knew Oliver for who he was. Maybe not in her bones or as well as she knew her own name, but even back then she knew him better than Laurel did.

pootlus · May 4, 2014

At this point the guy who cleans the leaves out of the gutters at the Queen family mansion probably knew Oliver better than Laurel did.

Danny Franks · May 4, 2014

They really should've had Oliver and his girlfriend Dinah go on the boat and he thinks she died. Then Dinah shows up in the second season as the LOA trained Black Canary. Basically Sara's whole story with no sister swapping.

Definitely. Dinah as the 'dead' girlfriend might remove any doubt about the fact that she wasn't dead, but I don't think that would have mattered a whole lot. And they could still have had a sister for her who hated Oliver. Say she was the disapproving sister who thought Dinah's boyfriend was an asshole, and now blames him for getting her killed.

They could play up the antagonism and the sister slowly coming to realise that Oliver was a changed man. And if there was chemistry between the actors, then the writers could start to toy with that, without the ickiness of sister-swapping. I think Oliver developing feelings for the other sister, five or six years after Dinah 'died' would have a completely different feel to, 'I love you but I fucked your sister and took her on a cruise that resulted in her death'. And so when Dinah did inevitably return as Black Canary, there could be complications that felt real and tortuous, rather than gross and a black mark against all characters involved.

As it is, the writers have now presented two more viable, more appealing alternatives to Laurel in the stakes for Oliver's heart (or his penis, at least), in Felicity and Sara. Both seem much more suitable, in different ways, and in ways that I don't think Laurel can ever replicate. Like I said in another post, it feels like everything the writers put into the show in terms of Oliver's future suggests that Felicity is The One. And the actors definitely play it that way. But there's Laurel, just hanging around, stinking of booze and self-righteousness.

Sakura12 · May 4, 2014

Definitely. Dinah as the 'dead' girlfriend might remove any doubt about the fact that she wasn't dead, but I don't think that would have mattered a whole lot. And they could still have had a sister for her who hated Oliver. Say she was the disapproving sister who thought Dinah's boyfriend was an asshole, and now blames him for getting her killed.

The audience would know that Dinah wasn't dead, but Oliver would and character wise that's what would matter. His guilt would've still haunted him. They could've even had her meet up with him on the island a year later just like Sara did so we'd be getting to know Dinah while seeing Oliver's relationship with her sister. He still could've lied and said she died on the Gambit causing drama between him, the other sister and Quentin when she returned alive.

The Lance's could've just hated Oliver and blamed him for Dinah's grades dropping and her causing trouble with him. And if they wanted playboy Oliver, Dinah could've been the other woman when Oliver was involved with some other girl not related to her. That would've made a much better story.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Sakura12

ArctisTor · May 4, 2014

I have to concur with others here, Alibelle, in that was an excellent write-up connecting the dots and trying to make any kind of sense in Laurel's and Oliver/Laurel's relationship. Though like statsgirl, I unfortunately don't think that's the EPs/writers intent, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense and probably much more more so in whatever they try to continue to pass on us of their supposed epic OTPs to end all OTPs. Such silly bullshit.

And, as pretty as Stephen is, his pre-island wig manages to minimize the pretty significantly. So, really, the only real redeeming quality he seems to have had was his money. And if you start to look at Laurel as someone who is basically a gold digger, she starts to actually make sense. For a gold digger, the ends would justify the means. And it would explain why she has adopted this weirdly entitled, arrogant, lady of the manor attitude when dealing with the other people in his orbit, if she sees herself as the chatelaine of his life. She has invested an awful lot of time and patience into making Oliver hers. So looking at it that way, her constant insistence that she knows him better than anyone, starts to feel like she's trying to brainwash him into believing that, isolating him from the other people who might actually care about him.

One could go further and suggest it may not even entirely be conscious on Laurel's part she's targeting Oliver due to money and social status. I'm not sure if this was ever explicitly stated in canon, but I always assumed Laurel - though she had two parents who were gainfully employed, they certainly didn't seem to be in the tax bracket of the Queens or Merlyns - had either scholarships or financial aid to get her into the same schools as Oliver and Tommy, thus how they all knew each other and grew-up together. Though being in these schools, she internalized any condescension or microaggressions from the super-rich kids who looked down on her. Having internalized this class discrimination and in some ways she hadn't entirely realized, she grows up wanting to retaliate and get revenge on these people, so decides she's going to land the richest guy in the school and by any means necessary (including screwing over her own sister to get him). However, this may have also partly been about survival from the other spoiled rich kids or even bullying being from such a different social class, being Oliver Queen's girlfriend probably provided for some protection from most of any or all bullying or snide comments, though perhaps not all of it. This could be coloring any 'love' she had and seems to still have for him, part of her unconsciously viewed him as this status symbol, but also someone that helped her fit in among the snobs (and, to a degree, became one herself, specifically anyone she perceives close or too close to Oliver barring his immediate family), his status was glamorous, but it also offered some protection. In which case, Laurel may have had DiD elements and seeing Oliver as some savior/protector more deeply entrenched in her character than anyone realizes.

However, one might also say she seemed to create this whole life between them in her head, had not only her whole life planned out, but his too and maybe something everyone even expected to happen. She then staunchly clung to this life-plan so hard and almost totally living in her own head rather than willing or able to see what was right there in front of her. Namely, Oliver's party boy lifestyle and his rampant infidelity probably wasn't all that cogent to that life-plan of hers, even if the sentiment on his side or mostly so, had been there. When Sara tried to help her face the reality of what Oliver was and what he was doing (and how much of a chip off the old block he was), Laurel shut her down, basically called her a bitch. To me, that's always read Laurel desperate to protect the unreality of her perception of Oliver and their relationship, basically attacked Sara for threatening that bubble she had around that unreality. However, it wasn't until the unavoidable and very harsh reality check of the Queen's Gambit sinking, with both Oliver and Sara on it, that bubble was finally popped for Laurel. Then had to likely face, not only the tragedy of the loss of her sister and her boyfriend, but the humiliation - maybe largely unspoken by most people barring the whispers behind her back - her boyfriend had been cheating on her with her own sister.

Though, unfortunately, didn't seem to be a truth she let effect her all that much considering she's kissing Oliver again by the third episode of the first season.

On Oliver's side of it, one could see him attracted to powerful, strong - and not just a little bit manipulative - women like his father apparently also was (Isabel Rochev, Helena Bertinelli and arguably Laurel)... but we also see Oliver drawn to kind, strong women too. Women that, as far as we're shown, have no agenda and come off more adult and mature than Oliver himself (McKenna, Shado, Felicity and what little we saw of his Baby Momma - what little description of her we got from Oliver and he describes her as a "good person" - she didn't exactly read like an Isabel or Laurel). One might see a divide here between the women he's attracted to (most of it seems to be about sex and control or, in Oliver/Helena's case, a mutual darkness) vs. the kind of women he seems to yearn for. Women possibly reflecting two sides of Moira Queen. On one side, sexy, controlling, dark and manipulative and on the other, the kind, attentive and nurturing mother. All these women are strong, intelligent and very capable. I'd say the most left field of all of them is Felicity and that's more her role also as Oliver's His Girl Friday and her also functioning partly as a comedic character in "Arrow". She not only provides support to Oliver and a softer approach than maybe Dig (though she's also called him on his bullshit on occasion), but she also provides a levity in the storyline that few other characters have provided.

It does all make sense, but unfortunately I just don't think that's how we're supposed to read Laurel or the Laurel/Oliver relationship. We are supposed to see them as some epic romance.... though somehow the EPs/writers made about the least romantic 'epic romance' I've ever seen in recent television.

Edited May 4, 2014 by ArctisTor

Zalyn · May 4, 2014

One could go further and suggest it may not even entirely be conscious on Laurel's part she's targeting Oliver due to money and social status. I'm not sure if this was ever explicitly stated in canon, but I always assumed Laurel - though she had two parents who were gainfully employed, they certainly didn't seem to be in the tax bracket of the Queens or Merlyns - had either scholarships or financial aid to get her into the same schools as Oliver and Tommy, thus how they all knew each other and grew-up together. Though being in these schools, she internalized any condescension or microaggressions from the super-rich kids who looked down on her. Having internalized this class discrimination and in some ways she hadn't entirely realized, she grows up wanting to retaliate and get revenge on these people, so decides she's going to land the richest guy in the school and by any means necessary (including screwing over her own sister to get him). However, this may have also partly been about survival from the other spoiled rich kids or even bullying being from such a different social class, being Oliver Queen's girlfriend probably provided for some protection from most of any or all bullying or snide comments, though perhaps not all of it. This could be coloring any 'love' she had and seems to still have for him, part of her unconsciously viewed him as this status symbol, but also someone that helped her fit in among the snobs (and, to a degree, became one herself, specifically anyone she perceives close or too close to Oliver barring his immediate family), his status was glamorous, but it also offered some protection.

I really like that you brought up the class issue; it's one that's been bopping around in my head for a while, especially after seeing the college-age flashbacks. Forgive me for dragging in Veronica Mars again, but this is exactly the same setup in terms of class: two stinking rich families (Kane and Echolls / Queen and Merlyn) and a girl whose father is an important law enforcement figure (Sheriff / Detective) who is able to have enough legitimacy to date the boys because her daddy has social status, if not money.

I always wondered what Mom and Dad Queen thought about Oliver with Laurel; she wasn't particularly savvy or interesting as a college student, and while her dad was a detective, it still didn't seem up to expectations for their son's future wife. Maybe they were just being hands-off until they'd arrange a marriage later on... But I wish there had either been more class-based tension or an explanation (they like her mom and dad, for example) for the lack thereof. The class conflicts as a backdrop made the VM story very textured and allowed for direct character conflict as well as a more palpable environment of social tension that need to be said more than shown in Arrow.

On Oliver's side of it, one could see him attracted to powerful, strong - and not just a little bit manipulative - women like his father apparently also was (Isabel Rochev, Helena Bertinelli and arguably Laurel)... but we also see Oliver drawn to kind, strong women too. Women that, as far as we're shown, have no agenda and come off more adult and mature than Oliver himself (McKenna, Shado, Felicity and what little we saw of his Baby Momma - what little description of her we got from Oliver and he describes her as a "good person" - she didn't exactly read like an Isabel or Laurel). One might see a divide here between the women he's attracted to (most of it seems to be about sex and control or, in Oliver/Helena's case, a mutual darkness) vs. the kind of women he seems to yearn for. Women possibly reflecting two sides of Moira Queen. On one side, sexy, controlling, dark and manipulative and on the other, the kind, attentive and nurturing mother. All these women are strong, intelligent and very capable. I'd say the most left field of all of them is Felicity and that's more her role also as Oliver's His Girl Friday and her also functioning partly as a comedic character in "Arrow". She not only provides support to Oliver and a softer approach than maybe Dig (though she's also called him on his bullshit on occasion), but she also provides a levity in the storyline that few other characters have provided.

I really like this analysis and wish/hope it were more emphasized as a theme in the show. To support the Olicity OTP idea, it could be argued that Felicity is so left field she actually breaks that binary and is something else entirely - representing what Oliver could actually grow into where he becomes himself instead of merely a combination of his mother and father. To me, Felicity and Diggle really represent the future potential of Oliver - Oliver the hero, not just the vigilante, Oliver as Arrow and not The Hood. And whenever Sara or Laurel or even Isabel show up, they drag him back to the past, whether the past of the island or the past of bad wigs and playboy irresponsibility.

Until and unless Oliver can become Sailor Cosmos, er, The Green Arrow, the Hero, he won't be ready for a more real and independent relationship of his own, whether with Felicity or with some future person who allows him to truly live looking to the future and not the past.

KirkB · May 4, 2014

I always wondered what Mom and Dad Queen thought about Oliver with Laurel; she wasn't particularly savvy or interesting as a college student, and while her dad was a detective, it still didn't seem up to expectations for their son's future wife. Maybe they were just being hands-off until they'd arrange a marriage later on... But I wish there had either been more class-based tension or an explanation (they like her mom and dad, for example) for the lack thereof. The class conflicts as a backdrop made the VM story very textured and allowed for direct character conflict as well as a more palpable environment of social tension that need to be said more than shown in Arrow.

Oliver's dad seems to have been a bang anything that moves kind of guy, so I don't imagine he'd have any more problem with Oliver sleeping with a CEO vs the cleaning lady. Moira, on the other hand, seemed to be of the mindset that she didn't really know or care what her kids (or husband apparently) did so long as it did not inconvenience or embarrass her. Maybe they were grooming Thea to be the important child or maybe they were waiting for Oliver to grow up. As for the other side of the equation, I'll bet Quentin didn't care who the Queens were so long as Laurel was happy and Dinah, well, I don't really know because we haven't seen that much of her. But they both seemed ready to support Laurel in moving in with Oliver so if either of them had issues with him I get the feeling they were keeping them to themselves. Maybe things would have been different if they had known early on that Laurel and Sara were competing for Oliver but Quentin's main concern seems to be that his daughters are safe and happy. He didn't even bat an eye when he found out about Nyssa.

Sakura12 · May 4, 2014

Quentin questioned Laurel's decision to move in with Oliver. I think he called him a stupid frat boy and asked her if she was sure about him. So I think he had an issue with Oliver but was letting Laurel make her own decisions because Laurel was supposed to be the smart one.

Alibelle · May 4, 2014

ArctisTor, yes!! Exactly. And even this interpretation of Laurel makes her more sympathetic than the one the writers keep showing us. I would love if they focused a bit more on the class dynamics too. It just makes sense, and it helps explain the complicated relationship interaction between Oliver, Tommy, and Laurel. For Laurel, Oliver and Tommy have opportunities just handed to them that she has had to work to earn, and that would play into her slight attitude of condescension to both of them, as well as explain why she's so desperate to be part of that lifestyle. And it's always been clear that Tommy looks up to Oliver, so Oliver would be the one who seems the most appealing to her. He's the prize (though don't get me started on how much of a prize pre-island Ollie is NOT. Social standing wise, he would appear to be a prize, at least). The dynamics of high school that pushed them together makes him the goal, the best, and Laurel has no problem with working hard and earning the best.

For Tommy, Oliver and Laurel both come from what seem like thoroughly tight and loving families, and considering the sheer loneliness of growing up with a distant Malcolm Merlyn, that has to look insanely appealing. And the fact that even amongst the three of them, he would still feel like the fifth wheel, often, and would be the one who tries the hardest to fit in with them, to have people like him. That gives the power to the other two, and Laurel doesn't really value being the powerful one. She likes to win, not be handed something, which is a fascinating dynamic considering how hard she works to be in a place to just have things handed to her.

Then there's Oliver, who was literally born with the entire world at his feet, and he's never had to do a single thing to earn any of it. His parents love him, his sister adores him, he's a billionaire, he's handsome, he's charismatic, he has the potential to be smart but he's never even had to get to the point where he relies on his brain, pre-island, since his other attributes have been able to solve any mild problems that life has softballed his way before it's come to that. And then there's Laurel, who is super focused on him, who sees him as some sort of hero without him having to do a single thing to actually earn it. As much as his parents love him, there's no real feeling that they respect him, or even expect him to do better than he does. They're perfectly willing to do all the heavy lifting for him. So the pedestal that Laurel has seemed to place him on must seem very appealing, and play to his ego, even as he knows he's done nothing to deserve it, so he constantly undermines it with rampant cheating. But the disappointment he felt at learning that he wasn't going to be a father after all was the most interesting thing he's done yet. He clearly wants to be liked. He's easygoing and just generally a good time, even if he has no real substance to him. And he knows this about himself. But that moment of disappointment seemed to indicate that he knows it, and that he doesn't actually have as healthy a level of self-respect as one would expect. He knows he's a powder puff of a person, but I think he wanted to be better. He's just never had a reason to be. Even Laurel, who seemed to put him on a pedestal, would just enable him in anything he felt like doing, including cheating on her. And I think he felt that being a father, on some level, would actually push him to do something for someone else. To be someone someone else should rely on, and then it didn't happen.

That said, some random thoughts that I'm not sure how they fit into everything else: I find it interesting that the only heiress we've met is Thea. Oliver has no wealthy ex-girlfriends. The closest would probably be Helena, and even then, I got the sense that the Bertinellis were very nouveau riche, having gained the family money as Daddy Bertinelli climbed the ranks of the mob. Is this some sort of unconscious thing because of Raisa, maybe, who seemed to encourage him as he grew up? Who seemed to be the only one who appealed to the fact that he had a good heart? I also think it's interesting that the only person we've seen Oliver cheat on is Laurel. Sara knew he was already in a relationship, and Baby Mama pretty much had to know as well. Makenna appears to have been a quick hook-up while Oliver and Laurel were in an off-again phase, since everyone seems to be aware that they had a brief fling. (And I'm seriously curious about what they fought about that had them go through off/on phases, since Laurel really doesn't seem to care much about infidelity. Or his just having a vaguely shitty personality in general. And we've yet to see Oliver break up with someone. All his girlfriends leave him, so I'm not sure that it was Oliver calling things off.) Which makes it even more interesting that Oliver's philosophy on dating since returning from the island, other than Isabel where both were very clear about their intentions up front, is that one date=a relationship. He's really very quick to call someone his girlfriend for a person who is considered a playboy (which, seriously, that term is so old-fashioned. Who really uses the term playboy in real life, other than Hugh Hefner?). He and Helena only had one real date. He and Makenna had three (slept with each other on their third date, and she was shot in the leg later that night, leading to their breakup). He and Sara impulsively hooked up without any real lead-up to them doing so, since I don't even remember anything that could even resemble flirting before they were making out in the foundry, and the very next thing we see is that she's his official girlfriend, getting a party thrown for her. I don't know what that all means, really, other than that Oliver is surprisingly eager to please, and to have official connections with people, but it is interesting.

quarks · May 5, 2014

Alibelle, Arctis Tor, excellent posts that helped clarify my own thoughts.

As I've noted elsewhere, what I find bizarre - truly bizarre - is the decision to have a major, but major, Oliver/Felicity moment in the same episode where the show seemed to attempting to re-establish the Laurel/Oliver romance and set this up as a potential endgame. Which in the immediate future means a rival love triangle of Laurel/Oliver/Felicity.

Rival love triangles are all well and good, but they generally only work under the following circumstances:

1. The two rivals are fairly equal, allowing the genuine question of which one will she/he choose? (Archie in comics, Downton Abbey Season Four, Star Wars Episode IV, Dawson's Creek, Stargate:Universe of all shows although wow was that one boring so I probably shouldn't have listed it as one that "works.")

2. One rival is clearly set up as a Temporary Love Interest/Rival who will be around for only a few episodes/chapters/seasons before leaving. (Almost every sitcom, Downton Abbey Season two, Castle season three, Bones when Hannah showed up; Burn Notice did this more or less successfully in an otherwise not great final season.) Said Temporary Love Interest/Rival is usually a good person and/or a person who could be very good for the central character, and is almost always introduced as someone with no connections to the rest of the cast.

3. The person initially believes that Rival A is the One True Love, but gradually realizes that the real One True Love is Rival B. (Gone With the Wind, where she ends up losing both; Stardust; Smallville; Eureka, Count of Monte Cristo. On television this is often combined with 2.)

4. The person has to be with one of the rivals For Reasons, but secretly or unconsciously loves the other, made clear by camera work/dialogue/internal monologues or in some cases straight out sex (Scandal; Revenge first season; Once Upon a Time first season; technically Grimm second season; technically The Borgias third season; Agents of SHIELD [revealed in the twist].)

5. As it turns out, one rival is Not a Good Person at All (Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility [twice!], several Bond films.)

6. Some combination of two or more of the above.

7. It all ends in a threesome.

Granted this is the CW, but I think 7 is out. (And even if the CW, the WB and CBS all managed to choke past that, which I find really unlikely, the appropriate third person there is Sara, not Laurel.)

So let's look at the other possibilities.

2 is clearly out: neither Laurel nor Felicity is a temporary rival. Oddly, the relationship where this was played out was the Sara/Oliver/Felicity triangle, this oddly because generally speaking the Temporary Love Interest is not part of the major myth of the story or connected to anyone else in the story, unlike Sara.

4 is also, at least for now, out, though the show has sorta used this one before with Oliver/Laurel/Tommy last season, where Laurel couldn't be with Oliver For Reasons so stayed with Tommy while remaining secretly in love with Oliver, and more arguably with in the Sara/Oliver/Felicity triangle – with Oliver deciding in the Russia episode and again in Blast Radius that he couldn't be with Felicity For Reasons, but could be with Sara.

So that leaves us with 1, 3 and 5.

If we focus on the interviews, the tweets, and the most recent episode, the show seems to be going for 1, pitting the relationship that has canon behind it – Laurel/Oliver, with teasing comments about Lois/Clark and deep bonds and all that stuff – versus the relationship with a large fanbase and the media attention – Felicity/Oliver, with teasing comments about "big things coming" and showrunner acknowledgements that yes, something is there. It's not quite equal – Laurel is serious, Felicity is funny; Laurel is an unpopular character; Felicity a popular one – but the interviews are currently treating it that way.

But if we focus solely on the writing and staging, the show seems to be going with 3. Oliver started the show convinced he was in love with Laurel. But quite apart from the chemistry issue, episode after episode seems to be showing us things that completely contradict this. Meanwhile, episode after episode has also shown him growing closer to Felicity, with some episodes suggesting stronger emotions that Oliver hasn't acknowledged yet. And when the show did the Temporary Romantic Rival thing, they used Sara to delay Felicity/Oliver, not Laurel/Oliver – that hookup happened after Oliver said that Laurel was his blind spot and told Felicity that she was never going to lose him.

Thus some of the fan confusion – Laurel and Laurel/Oliver fans wondering why, if their pairing is endgame, Felicity/Oliver is getting so much build up, and for that matter, why anyone is even thinking that Felicity/Oliver is a possibility; Felicity and Felicity/Oliver fans, meanwhile, are wondering why on earth the showrunners have gone back to Laurel/Oliver, a pairing that seems so incredibly toxic. Because we're seeing one thing and hearing another – and these are two very contradictory ways to write love triangles.

Which is why, after reading the above posts, I'm now wondering if the actual issue is that I'm being told I'm watching 1, I feel that I'm watching 3 –

But I'm actually watching 5.

Which makes a lot of the complaints on this board make sense, doesn't it?

So I'm going to go with this idea.

Edited May 5, 2014 by quarks

Alibelle · May 5, 2014

Quarks, yes, so much this! And thanks so much for organizing that so thoroughly. Everything that I'm seeing on screen is 5, though the initial set up felt like 3. What is getting extremely confusing and frustrating is that just about every interview with the EP's didn't track at all with what we're seeing on screen. Because what I'm seeing on screen is a Felicity/Oliver love story for the ages. Consistently. And they go out of their way to give these two a moment in every episode, even it's not necessarily romantic, it's always about caring about each other, connecting with each other, warmth, or moving towards becoming a better person (this is mostly on Oliver because, let's face it, he's the one with miles to go).

They have also been pretty darn thorough about tying Felicity to almost every romantic moment that Oliver has, and they've been doing that since Oliver initially broke up with Helena, which was way back when he barely even knew Felicity. When Dig told Oliver: “I'm no expert at this, but I don’t think love is about changing or saving a person. I think it’s about finding the person who’s already the right fit.” The very next shot is a close up of Felicity as she heads toward Walter's office, so you have a chance to just linger on her as Dig's words sink in. When Oliver finally sleeps with Makenna, they start making out, and the camera drifts away from that action to linger on Felicity calling Oliver's phone. They obviously tie Felicity into Oliver's one night stand with Isabel in Russia. When he hooks up with Sara, it's because he's upset and brooding over the information that Felicity just gave him, and the very next time we see him and Sara in the next episode, the focus is pretty much on Felicity even as he briefly kisses Sara. In 220, when we finally see Oliver and Sara in bed together, again the focus ends up on Felicity calling him. The only "romantic" moment that Felicity isn't tied to is when he sleeps with Laurel right before the undertaking, and that's because that moment is tied to Tommy. And the way it's presented is hardly positive. He's just told Tommy to go get the girl, and basically later that day he's sleeping with her and helping to break his best friend's heart. The only truly unsullied, for lack of a better term, or perhaps straightforward works better, romantic moments that occur are with Felicity. That's the only time the romance is solely about the two people participating in the moment. So just taking that at face value, it's really hard to NOT to see Oliver and Felicity as the pairing that they're very carefully, and very deliberately, building.

Even beyond the text of the show, Emily Bett Rickards is the one that they're submitting for things like Best Chemistry for People's Choice Awards. So they can't be unaware of what they're doing. The only bizarre note is the producer interviews. And I have no idea why the interviews are so out of left field. But the actual work that they're doing is all very consistent. If they wanted to make Laurel a legit love interest for Oliver, they've had about a billion and five opportunities. And these are the same people who are writing all of these Oliver/Felicity moments. They are fully capable of crafting a lovely moment. They just have chosen not to.

Even as far as Canary goes, I don't remember which episode it was in, but there was a point in season one where someone was commenting on a picture in Laurel's apartment of a Canary, and Laurel said something about it being her sister's pet. So I think I'm going to choose to trust what I'm seeing on screen, since that line would seem to indicate that they intended for Sara to come back as Canary fairly early on (I think it might have been the episode where Laurel's babysitting the kid), and just disregard whatever BS the producers are talking in interviews. Literally the only things that indicate that Laurel will be Canary are from like the first three episodes. Mainly, her full name, the fact that she worked somewhere called CNRI, she once wore fishnets to a party, and she had an interest in self-defense. And that's it. And every new piece of information that we get about Laurel as a person, or the Oliver/Laurel relationship, just seems to further underline what a terrible fit she is with Oliver. So I think I'm done stressing out about the interviews, which were mainly only stressing me out because they were such a disconnect from what I was seeing on screen, and just trust what they're actually showing us on screen. These two do not work well together. Laurel does not make sense as a superhero. Laurel DOES make sense as a source of conflict in Oliver's life. And so I guess we'll see how that ends up playing out. But after all this analysis? I think I've actually talked myself into a fairly hopeful place, as far as the show goes.

[Well, minus the financial stuff. That is still mind-numbingly dumb. But so far as they continue to do the relationship stuff consistently - which they have been, despite what they've weirdly said in interviews - I'm good. I care more about the characters than the writers' grasp of how business works.]

ArctisTor · May 5, 2014

Like y'all here, if I'm basing the assessment on who they intend Oliver to be with in a significant way (and at least for the time being), I'd lean a lot more towards Felicity than Laurel right now. Despite the last ep, what seems to be happening in Wednesday's and EP interviews.

The thing about EP interviews is that they talk a lot of talk for any number of reasons, mostly it is the publicity. However, it's definitely possible they could be trying to placate or reassure certain fans, in this case, I'd guess it's the comics canon purists (who I think make up the Laurel/Oliver fanbase for the most part. Since, as many of you pointed out, it's hard to tell what exactly it is of Laurel/Oliver, solely based on their "Arrow" storylines, that would draw anyone to the pairing, aside from totally shallow reasons). Placate and reassure them because there's a significant Oliver/Felicity arc coming and possibly starting as of the S2 finale and the EPs know the comics purists are going to be upset by it, hence all the interviews of late. One could say Katie Cassidy was also placating these fans in the Calgary Expo with the way she described any Laurel/Oliver coming, like the EPs, trying to reassure those fans that Laurel/Oliver would be endgame... but, reading between the lines, not anytime soon.

As for the Laurel/Oliver in the last ep and Wednesday's, I'm thinking it might be misdirection. Laurel/Oliver fucked in last season's finale arc and they seem to be trumping up the Laurel/Oliver again in this season's finale, but I think they're going to pull the rug out from under this one. Namely out from under Laurel's feet.

I think Sara was indeed referring to Felicity as Oliver's "light". Sara - like Diggle - would have been there in the Arrow-lair every day and likely saw how Felicity effects and influences Oliver, vice versa. I do think we're supposed to see Diggle as having long since surmised something significant going on there between Oliver and Felicity, being around both all the time and often in tense, dangerous situations (him basically calling Oliver out on his jealousy in "The Scientist" [?], along with other moments him acknowledging the Oliver/Felicity elephant in the room in some way). Honestly, unless we were just going to assume Diggle was mistaken in "The Scientist", we were likely supposed to take Diggle's comment on what Oliver's really feeling (and for whom) for the truth. Something we weren't meant just to forget either and it wasn't "ship teasing". Ship teasing would, for example, have been that Tarzan and Jane moment that Olicity had way back in "City of Heroes" (the first one in the jungle). Though we've not only consistently gotten moments like that strewn out all over the season, a few in "City of Heroes" by itself IIRC (interesting they open the season that way too), we've also got Diggle's comment and others like it, that's well beyond ship teasing at this point, but banking on at least one character's own intelligence and observance skills to acknowledge what's there in series canon. We are led to believe Diggle is quite intelligent and observant based on two seasons of character development, hence they're very likely not just "teasing" Oliver/Felicity.

Morrigan2575 · May 5, 2014

You know it's really hard to get a finger on these EPs lately. I don't know if this is the correct place to discuss it but I figure it applies to relationships and characters in general so why not. If you guys have a better place in mind i can move it to that thread.

So things I've noticed as far as EP interviews (AK in particular).

Felicity's speech in 2.13 will come back in two significant ways before the end of the season. Most people took that to mean two aspects of her speech (mom, dad, losing someone) and figured it meant a major plot point for the character. Felicity's father would show up, she'd be faced with losing Oliver again, etc. Instead the "significant" was in relationship to the emotional scene...Felicity trying to talk Oliver out of suicide by Slade.
The reason Laurel gives for not telling Oliver that she knows is quite beautiful/powerful and will make Laurel fans love her even more and maybe make some non Laurel fans love her too. OK, it was a great reason, but it wasn't Laurel's, the beautiful emotional speech was given by Quentin to Laurel, Laurel takes it in and accepts the truth of her father's words but while this is Laurel's reason for not telling, it didn't originate with Laurel.
Laurel will know when to tell Oliver she knows about him being the Arrow and pull him out of his darkest hour. Laurel tells Oliver not because she sees him as his worst, he's already been kidnapped by TA, she goes to him because of Blood. And her pulling him out of his darkest hour isn't because he loves her so freaking much or she's so important to him, she pulls him out of it by dangling the Slade/Blood connection.

It just seems to me that the producers tell a partial truth or the tell the truth but it's a bit twisted/flowery in a way that makes the reader interpret something that isn't present in the show. Now granted that could be a failure between the writer/actor/director and the EPs vision but at the same time when AK's making these comments he's read the script, he knows what's written. So either he's twisting the information to get a reaction or he's watching a different show then I am. I really don't know but I can't help but wonder about his interviews and what the "real" truth is in what he says.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Morrigan2575

ArctisTor · May 5, 2014

ArctisTor, yes!! Exactly. And even this interpretation of Laurel makes her more sympathetic than the one the writers keep showing us. I would love if they focused a bit more on the class dynamics too.

I do feel like the class issues are something that one could see being there in “Arrow”, but either totally overshadowed for the action sequences or the dramatic moments. Like who Blood targeted for recruits and when Diggle calls Oliver out in season 1 for wanting to “gentrify” the Glades and how that’s not as great an idea as Oliver (a privileged rich man) thinks it is.

It’s why I think there could be some validity in my assessment of Laurel carrying a chip on her shoulder and internalized a lot of the class discrimination she experienced rubbing shoulders with so many super-rich kids. This influencing her choices, potentially influencing Sara’s too. That for all Laurel tried to be the Good Girl, over-achiever and seeming Be Better than those around her. Sara went the opposite route, that she partied with them, but didn’t try to fit within their apparent social norms. Like Laurel had to work twice as hard to get just as much as what the super-rich like Oliver or Tommy get handed to them (Like Oliver is made the CEO of his family’s Fortune 500 company because he inherited the role, forget he knows nothing about business or running any kind of business). I’d hate to think it, but maybe a small portion in Laurel also grooming herself to be the would-be future Mrs. Oliver Queen though, again, if she did think this to any degree, I do think it was mostly unconscious on her part.

Laurel working so hard to be exemplary because that’s what would be expected of a billionaire’s wife (and to be able to fill Moira Queen’s shoes, quite big shoes to fill). Though Laurel had, unfortunately, already been emulating Moira a little too much in the sense of both having had unfaithful romantic partners. Though Moira knew about Robert’s infidelity, Laurel seemed to be totally ignorant of Oliver’s until the Queen’s Gambit sank… which is amazing as to how she somehow missed it with how indiscrete Oliver seemed to be? I go back to my thoughts on Laurel clinging really hard to some fantasy ideal of both Oliver and their relationship rather than necessarily seeing Oliver for the person he really was. Like you said Alibelle, Laurel seeing Oliver too much like this “prize” and not as a person.

As much as his parents love him, there's no real feeling that they respect him, or even expect him to do better than he does…

… he doesn't actually have as healthy a level of self-respect as one would expect. He knows he's a powder puff of a person, but I think he wanted to be better. He's just never had a reason to be.

It struck me how proud Oliver seemed to be when he hit that pile of wood with the flaming arrow on the second try, hundreds of feet away. Had he ever actually had to work to earn anything in his life until he landed on that island? Probably not.

Even Laurel, who seemed to put him on a pedestal, would just enable him in anything he felt like doing, including cheating on her.

I’ve had discussions with a friend regarding the similarities between Oliver’s parents and Laurel, namely how they all seemed to enable him and seemed to do very little of the way of treating him like the adult he was. Likely never often called him on it when he’d done wrong or messed up either and when he had a problem, they just magically made it go away or just never spoke of it or acknowledged it. Laurel either didn’t know or was willfully blind to Oliver’s rampant infidelity and partying all the time. The fact he dropped out of four colleges and Robert treats it like a joke. How Moira expects Oliver to always break his promises, but then she never seemed to encourage him to keep them or confront him when he broke them, so how does she expect he keep them? Who actually did the parenting? Did he ever get any kind of real parenting? What kind of relationships were built here – though love may have been there with all these relationships – when it seemed Oliver was always the one enabled and getting away with murder?

Not putting this all on Oliver’s parents or Laurel, Oliver certainly bears some blame for how he turned out after he got to a certain age and still seemed to fail to take any responsibility for his life. Though due to how he was raised? That enabling and negligence possibly internalized in Oliver and compounded with the trauma of the island experience that forced him into this extreme survivalist? It’s kind of no surprise Oliver is so messed up in the head and likely with the self-respect and self-worth issues he seems to have.

statsgirl · May 5, 2014

This is the greatest discussion I've read in a long time. I feel like I'm back in college.where the arguments we argued were smart and exciting and important (to us anyway).

Arctis Tor, I really like your analysis of Laurel, although it took me a minute to remember that DiD stood for Damsel in Distress and not Dissociative Identity Disorder, although that could apply too.

Pootlus, all your scenarios make sense, but I was thinking that there was one you didn't include: 8. the Pygmalion Factor.

I was getting some information last night and I realized that AK was not only the one who the GA/BC that turned off many people, but that he wrote BC as Dinah Laurel Lance. This version of her is his creation, maybe he even had a hand in casting KC in the role and now I'm thinking that his bewilderment that so many people don't love her is genuine. He can't see what is wrong with the character and as one of the two show-running EPS (Berlanti is usually off doing other things), he has a lot of clout.

It could be that the Pygmalion Factor is the wildcard that throws logic and good writing out the window. Maybe we should all be hoping that The Flash gets picked up and he leaves Arrow for it.

quarks · May 5, 2014

Other indications that the Felicity/Oliver is the intended endgame:

1. With the exception of Helena, the characters who have stated that or wondered if Oliver is still in love with Laurel or vice versa have either not known Oliver recently (Sara earlier this season, who notably dropped this point after spending more time hanging out with Oliver), or didn't know Oliver's secret identity (various bad guys from last season, Sebastian Blood, Quentin last season, Tommy, Thea, who last commented on this in January.)

Tommy is a slightly arguable case. But his discovery that Oliver was the Hood both a) convinced him that he didn't know Oliver all that well and b) Oliver and Laurel still had feelings for each other. Leading to the continued implication that the only people who think that Oliver and Laurel should be together either a) don't really know Oliver that well or at least don't think they do or b) are crazy.

2. Meanwhile, as we've since learned, the characters who have commented that Felicity/Oliver is a thing have all known Oliver's secret identity: Isabel, Barry, Moira and Diggle.

3. To add to this, a number of characters have pointed out the problems with the Laurel/Oliver relationship: his father (who commented on the whole sister issue), Slade (ditto), Shado, Tommy, Joanna, Quentin, Sara (pointing out that Laurel and Oliver didn't know each other that well) Diggle and even Laurel. Notably, half of these characters are or were mentor figures when they said this.

4. The show has made a fairly heavy-handed point of showing that when Laurel and Oliver do get together, terrible things happen: their relationship was apparently bad enough that it led Oliver to run off with her sister, which in turn led to years of trauma for both of them and their families; Oliver getting together with Laurel in the first season was immediately followed by the Undertaking and Tommy's death; Oliver and Laurel working together earlier this season led them to miss the evidence that Blood was working with Slade.

5. The show has made a less heavy-handed point that Laurel might need Oliver, but Oliver doesn't need Laurel. Last season it was notable - and, to me, kinda irritating - that Laurel apparently couldn't solve or handle a single case without the help of Oliver/the Hood, even though we kept getting told that she was an awesome attorney. I thought this was just me, but a male friend who just started watching the show this weekend and is now up to episode 11 has noted the same thing. And, interestingly, although the show easily could have used CNRI to let Laurel find targets for Oliver/the Hood, that's not what the show actually did. All of Laurel's targets were already on Oliver's List. Oliver's new targets came from Helena, Diggle, Joanna, Quentin and Felicity. This season, Laurel told Oliver about one potential target, then screwed that one up so disastrously because of her drinking and other issues that the target was able to become the city's mayor.

6. The show has given all but one of the action hero/superhero's main romantic beats to Felicity: the "can I trust you" speech; letting her be the first woman to learn the truth on screen (even if Sara probably figured it out earlier); letting her be the first one to argue that's he's a hero; the "I can't be with someone I care about," the putting on his mask (I still think this one is key; two of these guys really know their comics); letting her be the first one to go crime fighting with him while knowing his identity.

The one beat that Felicity didn't have was the "falling in love with the hero in the mask while hating/discounting his mundane identity." Laurel got that one, and it's a classic superhero beat, no question. But, one, the show has an interesting take on this one. Usually, if the girl has known the hero before, she figures it out fairly quickly - see Rachel in Batman Begins and Carol in Green Lantern. It's only when she meets the two at about the same time or after the hero has gotten his superpowers that she has problems - see Lois with Superman and Mary Jane in most versions of Spider-Man. And both Lois and Mary Jane figured it out without getting told by the villain.

Two, this is a beat that Berlanti and Guggenheim specifically made fun of in their earlier film. Though, granted, that film tanked so maybe they decided not to do that anymore.

And while I know people keep explaining the love triangle issues with "well, it's a CW show," interestingly enough the CW itself keeps emphasizing, in press reports and quarterly financial statements (well, the CBS ones), that Arrow is not a typical CW show. (Regardless of what viewers might be thinking.)

If this is what's going on, there's a risk that we're already seeing play out: your audience might not stick around for the twist. That's partly why SHIELD did its reveal relatively quickly. But here's another twist on that: by several reports, Arrow is now making more money through post-viewing numbers than live views. Arguably, people might be willing to marathon through stuff if they know the payoff is worth it in the end.

So I think this is possible. It certainly explains a lot.

Though just as I was convincing myself that yes, this is All Planned, Statsgirl showed up and made a very valid argument that I'm completely wrong and that the actual explanation is that AK really just doesn't see what's wrong with the character. Sniffle. Let me cling to my hope! But yeah, it would hardly be the first time that a writer/show creator completely misjudged the way a character would be taken by the audience, so Statsgirl may very well be on target here.

Edited May 6, 2014 by quarks

Alibelle · May 5, 2014

Statsgirl, I'm seriously enjoying this discussion too! And it has lowered my anxiety levels significantly, so that I can go back to loving the show, like I was doing for the first half of the season. And I WANT to like it! For the first ten episodes of season two, it was far and away my favorite thing on TV right now.

I’ve had discussions with a friend regarding the similarities between Oliver’s parents and Laurel, namely how they all seemed to enable him and seemed to do very little of the way of treating him like the adult he was. Likely never often called him on it when he’d done wrong or messed up either and when he had a problem, they just magically made it go away or just never spoke of it or acknowledged it. Laurel either didn’t know or was willfully blind to Oliver’s rampant infidelity and partying all the time. The fact he dropped out of four colleges and Robert treats it like a joke. How Moira expects Oliver to always break his promises, but then she never seemed to encourage him to keep them or confront him when he broke them, so how does she expect he keep them? Who actually did the parenting? Did he ever get any kind of real parenting? What kind of relationships were built here – though love may have been there with all these relationships – when it seemed Oliver was always the one enabled and getting away with murder?

Not putting this all on Oliver’s parents or Laurel, Oliver certainly bears some blame for how he turned out after he got to a certain age and still seemed to fail to take any responsibility for his life. Though due to how he was raised? That enabling and negligence possibly internalized in Oliver and compounded with the trauma of the island experience that forced him into this extreme survivalist? It’s kind of no surprise Oliver is so messed up in the head and likely with the self-respect and self-worth issues he seems to have.

ArctisTor, I think it's significant that one of the first things that Oliver did once he got back home was get on his mother's case for her lackadaisical parenting of Thea. I think all his self-worth is derived from his experiences on the island. Oliver Queen, CEO, and Oliver Queen, partying playboy are roles he assumes, and does not value. He's a terrible CEO and puts in the minimum of effort, sometimes not even the bare minimum, as he apparently doesn't believe in returning phone calls, or even attending meetings. He will throw a crazy party, and then will inevitably wander off for most of it, every time. Even when it's not Arrow business, like the time he hung out in his room with Laurel during his prison party, even though the sole point of the party was to have people see him at the mansion. He sees his real identity as the Arrow. He even talks about his other roles in third person, but when he told Blood "I'm the Arrow," that was said with some serious conviction.

And I think this is one of the reasons why he values Diggle and Felicity so highly. Diggle had to work a little harder to earn his respect in the beginning, whereas Felicity made it clear with one head tilt that she wasn't buying what he was selling. They both call him out on his boneheadedness and consistently challenge him to be a better person. And more than that, they consistently expect him to be a better person. And that inspires him to rise to their expectations. Because weird as it is, somehow, Oliver really is a people pleaser. On the island, as he would succeed at things, there was still an element of condescension or just sheer terror involved. But that's when he first started building his pride and self-respect. Even small things like remembering the one book he read started to feel like huge achievements, and that's how he was able to become the driven person he was by the time he returned to Starling. But his psyche is a total mess. And I think that's why he values his connections with Diggle and Felicity so much, even over the other connections in his life, I'd say. They're the ones who enable him to become a better person. Who help him heal from the extreme ways he learned to value himself as a person. He relies on them to make sure he doesn't backslide into the terrible behavior that he knows he's fully capable of.

He also feels fully secure in these relationships in a way that I don't think he does in any of his others. He has walls up with other people, even Sara, where he usually takes a moment before responding and sharing his thoughts. Because he still feels vulnerable and careful in those relationships in ways he just doesn't with Dig and Felicity. Team Arrow is rock solid. If you contrast his fight with Laurel in the hallway, where he's upset with her, but he's still editing what he's saying, with the fight he had with Felicity when she brought Barry in to the foundry, there's no hesitation in the fight with Felicity. He trusts her to take the full brunt of his anger and frustration. And she does, no problem. She even wins the fight. In 2x10, I think it's extremely significant just how upset he gets with Felicity just for not being around, because he relies on her so much for more than just the computer stuff, and that Dig's the one who was able to talk him down and point out what he was doing. I seriously loved the little dance that he and Felicity did on the stairs because it was such a physical manifestation of their emotional relationship. He has no hesitation in reaching out to her, knows she can take it the full weight of what he throws at her, has zero doubts in her ability. Even as Sara yells at him that she's a killer in 2x20, he's bummed about the fight, of course, but he has enough distance from it to turn to Felicity half a second later and explain his detachment. He tells her, when he wasn't able to articulate it thoroughly to Sara, because he can tell Felicity anything. He's used to doing to. And she's able to cheer him up pretty much immediately. Those relationship beats just end up feeling really powerful because it's almost always about Oliver growing as a person, but also slowly healing from some pretty severe trauma, right before our eyes. And that's pretty beautiful to watch.

BumpSetSpike · May 5, 2014

And I think this is one of the reasons why he values Diggle and Felicity so highly. Diggle had to work a little harder to earn his respect in the beginning, whereas Felicity made it clear with one head tilt that she wasn't buying what he was selling. They both call him out on his boneheadedness and consistently challenge him to be a better person. And more than that, they consistently expect him to be a better person. And that inspires him to rise to their expectations. Because weird as it is, somehow, Oliver really is a people pleaser. On the island, as he would succeed at things, there was still an element of condescension or just sheer terror involved. But that's when he first started building his pride and self-respect. Even small things like remembering the one book he read started to feel like huge achievements, and that's how he was able to become the driven person he was by the time he returned to Starling. But his psyche is a total mess. And I think that's why he values his connections with Diggle and Felicity so much, even over the other connections in his life, I'd say. They're the ones who enable him to become a better person. Who help him heal from the extreme ways he learned to value himself as a person. He relies on them to make sure he doesn't backslide into the terrible behavior that he knows he's fully capable of.
He also feels fully secure in these relationships in a way that I don't think he does in any of his others.

This is why I really love seeing Oliver's character development when he is around Diggle and Felicity. And likely why I am a huge team arrow fan because they really do bring out the best in who he is trying to be.

ArctisTor · May 5, 2014

And I think this is one of the reasons why he values Diggle and Felicity so highly. Diggle had to work a little harder to earn his respect in the beginning, whereas Felicity made it clear with one head tilt that she wasn't buying what he was selling. They both call him out on his boneheadedness and consistently challenge him to be a better person.

I also think that's why Oliver values Diggle's and Felicity's camaraderie so much. They helped and help give his Arrow role more meaning in the humanist sense, in turn, help give his life more meaning. They both literally help him reconnect with his humanity when one could say he'd basically been honed into this primal creature for 5 years who'd lost his humanity. Help maintain that balance between the man and the monster he's capable of being (many commented over on TWOP that Oliver was essentially a serial killer in season 1 with the cold-blooded killing and crossing names off a list, I don't disagree). Some primal creature solely concerned about his own survival and in constant life & death struggles. They both help remind him there's more to living than just surviving. There was and is more to the work they do than just cold-blooded revenge.

In a way, one could see it as a metaphor for storytelling. If there isn't conflict or challenge, there really is no story. It's kind of just nothing or empty. One could say like Oliver himself pre-island, going from party to party and girl to girl (cheating on a woman he supposedly loved all the while, though seems clear whatever he was searching for, he just wasn't finding it in those girls and not with Laurel either). I think of that line from "The Hours", "Mrs. Dalloway, always throwing parties to cover the silence." Like Oliver tried to fill his life with a lot of noise and stuff, ultimately to prove meaningless and so he was never satisfied. He was nothing and his life was empty. Often a likely story for those partyboy characters in fiction.

However, that's kind of why I suspect something terrible is going to happen - or at least appear to happen - to either Diggle or Felicity (and I'm leaning towards Felicity) in the upcoming eps that's going to make Oliver absolutely crack. That hold he had on his humanity broken and he's going to give into his monstrous side, at least temporarily. Right up until whatever he thought happened to that member of Team Arrow turns out not to have happened and he comes back to himself.

quarks · May 5, 2014

The Felicity/Oliver relationship is about due for the "Felicity is or appears to be badly hurt as opposed to just picking up a bullet scar like it's a tattoo, allowing Oliver to realize the depths of his feelings for her" beat, true. If that happens, I'll be interested in seeing the contrast (if any) to the moment when Oliver found out that Laurel was in the hospital (poisoning) and visited her there - concerned, definitely, and he headed right over, but not necessarily desperate or broken.

pootlus · May 6, 2014

The reason Laurel gives for not telling Oliver that she knows is quite beautiful/powerful and will make Laurel fans love her even more and maybe make some non Laurel fans love her too. OK, it was a great reason, but it wasn't Laurel's, the beautiful emotional speech was given by Quentin to Laurel, Laurel takes it in and accepts the truth of her father's words but while this is Laurel's reason for not telling, it didn't originate with Laurel.

I think my timing may be off for this to be true, but the way you put this made me wonder if the script didn't originally have those roles somewhat reversed, then they realised KC couldn't sell it, so they gave that speech to Paul Blackthorne instead (who, naturally enough, nailed it). I suspect that EP comment was made long after the scene was actually filmed though, so in that case it still makes zero sense to me. Quentin was the person I loved in that scene, not Laurel.

statsgirl, much as I would like to take credit, it was actually quarks who came up with the 'scenarios where love triangles may work'. :)

Ah, if only the EPs actually thought about their characters the way people do here. Or even at all, would be something of a start.

Morrigan2575 · May 6, 2014

I think my timing may be off for this to be true, but the way you put this made me wonder if the script didn't originally have those roles somewhat reversed, then they realised KC couldn't sell it, so they gave that speech to Paul Blackthorne instead (who, naturally enough, nailed it). I suspect that EP comment was made long after the scene was actually filmed though, so in that case it still makes zero sense to me. Quentin was the person I loved in that scene, not Laurel.

And this is where my massive confusion comes in. Are they desperately trying to sell a lemon so they're attributing things to the character that aren't in the script/episode to tell/convince the audience that she's awesome? Or are they simply watching a different show than I am and the way they saw the episode it was Laurel's beautiful motivation that would make us all love her whereas I saw it as another reason to love Quentin even more?

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