S02.E15: Legend of the Spear

[ohjoy]

I don't know why the guys I like keep getting killed off these shows, but I will totally forgive any villain or hero of everything ever if he/she uses the spear in such a way that gives me back Leonard Snart as a permanent member of Team Legends without losing Mick, Rip, Ray or Sara in the process. #SpearofDestinyWishList

[mac123x]

Another LotR misquote I noticed (though I think it  might just be from the movie):  "One does not simply walk into the middle of a battle field".

I don't like it when they present religious stories as fact. Not all of the viewers are Christian or believe in the story of Jesus.

I amn a Christian and I generally dislike SF/Fantasy stories involving the Spear of Destiny, mainly because it's poorly used and the legend of it is a bit insulting. Reducing Christ's blood to a simple magical plot device is off-putting to me.  I'm enjoying this iteration of it so far though, mainly because I really like this show.  And if they need to use this as a deus ex hasta to get Wentworth Miller back on the show permanently, I'm all in.

On 3/22/2017 at 10:28 PM, KirkB said:

know the real answer to this is it wouldn't make for very interesting TV. But they have a spaceship. Why not take the Spear and throw it into the sun? Even if that doesn't destroy it, somehow I don't think the Legion would be able to get to it.

My thoughts exactly.  Alternatively, chuck the individual pieces that they had into the Sun and into Jupiter. 

[kirinan]

19 hours ago, mac123x said:

And if they need to use this as a deus ex hasta to get Wentworth Miller back on the show permanently, I'm all in.

This. I would even live with it if he only appeared in every other episode (although I prefer him full-time, but y'know, pick your battles and all that). I just want him back.

Edited March 25, 2017 by kirinan

[Argenta]

19 hours ago, mac123x said:

I amn a Christian and I generally dislike SF/Fantasy stories involving the Spear of Destiny, mainly because it's poorly used and the legend of it is a bit insulting. Reducing Christ's blood to a simple magical plot device is off-putting to me.  I'm enjoying this iteration of it so far though, mainly because I really like this show.  And if they need to use this as a deus ex hasta to get Wentworth Miller back on the show permanently, I'm all in.

I'm also a practicing Christian. I don't really mind the Spear of Destiny either way...I think the first time I came across it in fiction was one of the Tomb Raider games where it was at the bottom of the ocean and Lara Croft had to stow away on a Russian submarine to get to it.

[treasaigh]

NoSince Amaya gave the Boromir speech about using the spear as a weapon, I was trying to connect the other characters to their LOTR counterparts but it's a little harder than I thought.  Yes I know, they may not have set it up that way, but it's still fun to try.  So first question, Frodo?  Do we have a spear bearer?  I say Mick.  His betrayal could be similar to Frodo's putting on the ring right before throwing it into the volcano.  And he was the one who walked away with the spear. Gandolf?  The leader, Sara, or the leader who disappears and comes back, Rip? I'm going with Rip cause that leaves Sara to be Aragon.  Wise muscle who eventually becomes king.  Ray is totally Legolas.  Nate is Gimli.   And that leaves Stein and Jax as Merry and Pippen.  Right?  I kind of want to make JRR a character but the only one left is Sam, and he doesn't strike me as a Sam.  

[Miss Dee]

I think it mixes up a bit. Mick hit the Spear like Gimli tries to hit the Ring with his axe, for instance. Amaya wants to use the Spear for her people, like Boromir, but Mick is the one who turns on the team like Boromir does.

A really intriguing idea I read somewhere else: Snart is preying on Mick's mind like Smeagol was tortured by the Ring. So Mick's two sides are warring in him like Gollum and Smeagol. Hopefully it works out better for him than it did for Gollum....

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

I think it mixes up a bit. Mick hit the Spear like Gimli tries to hit the Ring with his axe, for instance. Amaya wants to use the Spear for her people, like Boromir, but Mick is the one who turns on the team like Boromir does.

A really intriguing idea I read somewhere else: Snart is preying on Mick's mind like Smeagol was tortured by the Ring. So Mick's two sides are warring in him like Gollum and Smeagol. Hopefully it works out better for him than it did for Gollum....

I don't know.  Mick would probably think that jumping/falling into an erupting volcano would be a suitably badass way for him to go out.

[treasaigh]

Thankfully Boromir quickly realized his mistake and returned to the Fellowship as I suspect Mick will as well. 

While Leonard/Mick as Gollum/Smeagol is interesting, I'm not okay with either of them falling into a volcano.

[rubyred]

I hope Amaya's emotional struggle isn't foreshadowing her leaving LoT, I like her and think she's a great addition to the team. I spent the ep thinking "fucking NATE" because it's his fault she's going through this, with his petulant defiance in the last episode leading her to check out her historical timeline. If Amaya leaves it's all your fault, NATE.

Plus as noted above he's not needed anymore; he's always been a historian version of Ray, and if they're dumbing GIDEON down to give Nate something to do...that's not a good sign for a character.

[jhlipton]

On 3/21/2017 at 11:45 PM, BadArcher said:

Did they HAVE to dig for the blood in 1916? Wouldn't it have been easier to go back in time a few years and dig it up during peacetime?

It's not like they have a time machine or anything... Oh, wait...

 

13 hours ago, tracyly said:

Thankfully Boromir quickly realized his mistake and returned to the Fellowship as I suspect Mick will as well. 

While Leonard/Mick as Gollum/Smeagol is interesting, I'm not okay with either of them falling into a volcano.

I don't want Amaya getting shot full of arrows, either!

[treasaigh]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

 

I don't want Amaya getting shot full of arrows, either!

Yeah.  I guess while he did technically return, he didn't stay very long.  

So I'm just going to assume this story will have less death.  Yeah.  Let's do that!

[Aeryn13]

I kinda get Mick`s POV and also the one of the team when he betrayed them at the end. Where they really went out of line was after they found out proto-Snart had joined the Legion of Doom. Everyone acted like Mick had blabbed the plan to him on purpose. He said several times that he thought Leonard was an illusion/hallucination. As such, him telling "himself" basically, because that`s what this means, about any plan can`t be taken as any indictment of his character. It`s like calling someone to task if they shared a secret with a wall. Boohoo, what is the wall gonna do with it? That`s not betrayal. Or even being a blabbermouth.

On the other hand, Sara handed him the spear without hesitation on the battlefield. That is trust. They didn`t ban him from going on the mission any further or made his stand on the side or anything.

I couldn`t even tell if the end was him genuinely going with Snart or because he saw that there was no other way to spare the lifes of the others for the moment. He knew he`d be included in the reality changing so that he knew he would be the only one with a fighting chance going forward.

Once this matter is solved, I hope it ends with Mick getting treated with a bit more respect. They don`t have to sing Kumbayah or anything but look at Amaya. When she joined the team, she totally thought Mick was just a criminal/thug. In getting to know him, she came around and started seeing and treating him like a person and a team member. Jax and Rip who are IMO the worst offenders with the moralistic superiority complex right now need to get a grip.

[Lokiberry]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Once this matter is solved, I hope it ends with Mick getting treated with a bit more respect. They don`t have to sing Kumbayah or anything but look at Amaya. When she joined the team, she totally thought Mick was just a criminal/thug. In getting to know him, she came around and started seeing and treating him like a person and a team member. Jax and Rip who are IMO the worst offenders with the moralistic superiority complex right now need to get a grip.

This is the second time that Mick's betrayed the team. The first time he started a chain of events that lead to the death of Kendra's son. Who know's where it going to lead to this time.  So, the question isn't whether they were wrong to not fully trust him; they weren't, he betrayed them. The question is why should they ever trust him again? Why should they give him a third chance? What happens next time they get captured by some smooth talking villains who can offer Mick a good deal?

As for Jax and Rips "moralistic superiority complex": no. Both times Mick betrayed the team, the well being of the entire planet has been at stake. Last season was about preventing Vandal Savage from becoming Immortal Dictator of Earth. This year, it's about preventing a group of supervillains from violating the will of every single human being and rewriting reality to suit their whims. Under these circumstances, morality seems like it would be a good thing.

Jax has always been the ultimate team player; not only in the sense of carrying out the mission, but that team mates have each other's backs and work together. If Mick's run afoul of him, it's because he doesn't always live by that philosophy. The first time Mick betrayed the team, Rip said something mean to him, and he responded by shooting at everyone, and trying to kill Sara and steal the time drive, leaving the crew stranded. This time, Rip made a snide comment after the fact, which had no bearing on Mick's actions.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mick. I wish Amaya and Ray hadn't been pulled away from his story to prop Nate. However, other people are not to blame for what Mick decided to do. If he felt he was not getting the respect he deserved, he could have left at any time.

[kismet]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Once this matter is solved, I hope it ends with Mick getting treated with a bit more respect. They don`t have to sing Kumbayah or anything

But wouldn't it be fun if they did?

This whole Mick betrayal thing for me is such a blip. It has "For Plot" all over it. And while I understand the writers might have pulled from some residual bias and prejudice. It's been a long time for me other than that for plot conversation, that I have seen the Legends explicitly treat Mick as a criminal thug. If anything they have him embraced him just the way he is, which is a little gruff  & rough at baseline.

I usually have a lot of respect & praise for the LoT writers because they usually do a phenomenal job writing character driven stories with absurd yet funny plots. However, I have to give them a demerit on this part of the episode. They needed Mick to want to join Snart, so they reduced his reasoning down to a stupid conversation that was OOC for everyone. I wish they had tried harder to make Mick's desertion more a desertion and less of a betrayal, but they had a brain lapse and took the easy way out. Personally, I would have gone for a more emotional route and had Mick wanting to save Snart or bring back his old partner. However, the writers went the more obvious if less accurate way. Luckily, I think it will easily resolve itself in the final episodes, and Mick will be embraced by his team again.

Edited March 26, 2017 by kismet

[Sakura12]

I think Sara does see Mick as more than a crook, just like she hopes people see her as more than an assassin. Although she's proven herself to be a team player, by listening to the team before she makes every decision. She did hand Mick the spear, to show that she trusted him. And it does look he felt bad about betraying her with his last line to them being "I wish things could've been different, Sara". 

Was Ray even there when they were all ganging up on Mick? Amaya changes her mind so often on things it's hard to figure out where she stands. Stein definitely has a moralistic superiority complex. Jax has a little bit of that too. I don't think Rip does anymore. He's been taken down to rock bottom and is now trying to build himself back up. Chronos doesn't count as a betrayal to me because that is like Rip's situation, they were brainwashed. Mick's betrayal was with the time pirates. That was his own choice. I could see why the team wasn't ready to 100% trust him. 

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I wish Amaya and Ray hadn't been pulled away from his story to prop Nate

Same here. I liked those relationships a lot (I especially loved Ray and Micks weird friendship), and they both got shuttered away so that they could both spend more time with Nate. In my head now, I'm going to say that Mick didn't really betray the team because he didn't feel like he was trusted, he betrayed the team because he was pissed off at Nate for stealing his two favorite people on the team! Damn it Nate!

Seriously though, I found the team dynamic stuff here to be really disappointing from this show, because it normally does so well in creating believable character stuff, and allowing the conflicts and developments to evolve very naturally. This one requires everyone to be a dick to Mick for talking to a guy he totally thought was a hallucination. And, really, they could have done this a lot better, like deal with some residual issues of Mick betraying them to pirates, or his past as a criminal, but still clearly trusting him at this point in actual practice. I could see Mick choosing Snart over the team, but more out of desperation to get his friend back, not because he was pissed off at his team. It would be a lot more understandable, and more sympathetic to everyone involved. But I'm willing to see how the show handles it next week before I get REALLY irritated.

[squidprincess]

What does Rip's "moralistic superiority complex" even have to do with Mick's betrayal?  He wasn't present for the scene where the team confronted Mick.  And he wasn't here for the entire season.  He did make a comment about Mick's intelligence, but that was after the man betrayed the team.  Considering everything Rip's been through this season in order to keep the spear safe, I think he's entitled to one angry comment.

From the promo, Mick's going to fix his mistake, but I don't blame the team for being upset.  Especially since, as pointed out, they handed him the darned Spear.   He couldn't have betrayed them if they hadn't trusted him first. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by squidprincess

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, tracyly said:

I'm just going to assume this story will have less death.  Yeah.  Let's do that!

Sounds good to me!

9 hours ago, kismet said:

It's been a long time for me other than that for plot conversation, that I have seen the Legends explicitly treat Mick as a criminal thug. If anything they have him embraced him just the way he is, which is a little gruff  & rough at baseline.

They (especially Martin) call him "stupid" and "brain-damaged" All. The. Time.  Even after he has the right answer so many times.

[kismet]

Well he is technically brain injured. As for stupid, I don't remember hearing that often. Snart also not the nicest to him. And his behavior doesn't necessarily lend itself to be perceived as intelligent. Perhaps if he was less do first, think way later - he would garner more compliments. He might have the right answers, but he doesn't explain his positions well, sometimes it's sheer luck that gets him the right answer. I don't think Mick is stupid, but I think he does some stupid things.

[Miss Dee]

He absolutely does stupid things, any number of them. However, there have been a lot of times when the crew has been dismissive of Mick both to his face and behind his back, and that's not really behaviour that would get someone distrustful and not used to being appreciated to think he's genuinely become one of the gang.

[kismet]

No one is really arguing against them being dismissive to Mick. They have been. He has also done things that would make people dismissive to him. It's been a two way street of dismiss/distrust. Which is why him leaving to join the Legends makes sense. The whole conversation on the bridge was completely blown OOC. There was a better way the writers could have written Mick's decision to join up with the LoD.

[kathyk24]

The one person whose opinion Mick valued was Snart. He and Mick have a history together once the LOD brought Snart back there was no question who Mick would follow. I don't see Mick as someone who can't advocate for himself if he were bothered by something the team said or did he would say so. The Legends aren't grammar school kids they can have more than one friend at a time. I refuse to hold Nate responsible for Mick's betrayal.

[Lokiberry]

Mick has physically intimidated Martin, a man who's 20 years older and much smaller, repeatedly.  He's physically intimidated and twisted the arm of Ray, someone who's only ever tried to be his friend. He's physically intmidated Rip, who he could literally make two of. He would have shot Sara with his heat gun in Marooned if Snart hadn't stopped him. He threatened violence against Jax when he and Snart were trying to convince him to fly them to Central City so Snart could prevent his father from going to jail.

 This isn't innocent Mick being bullied by his teammates, it's more of a case of his teammates being wary and mistrustful of someone who has a violent persona and has betrayed them in the past.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Lokiberry

[tennisgurl]

To be fair, most of the Legends crew tend to give each other shit, bicker, act like dicks from time to time, and drive each other nuts. Its not surprising. They're all pretty...strong personalities in general who would normally have little to do with each other, none of them were super team oriented before this, and they all live AND work together 24/7. Of course they say mean stuff to each other and get on each others nerves. I still buy that they all really still care about each other like family.

As for Mick, they do tend to give him shit more than the others, but he gives as good as he gets, and he doesn't exactly play nice with everyone else. I love Mick, but he's hardly an innocent victim of bullying. He wouldn't be Mick if he was. That's why felt like the extreme pile on of hate towards him was out of character for everyone. They could have found a less contrived way for him to side with Snart. He was his best friend for years, I can imagine that would be all it took to get him to turn, even if he felt bad.

[dmmetler]

I know the answer is "for plot", but why not just show up at some Catholic or Orthodox Church on Sunday, and dunk the spear in the wine? Theologically, it becomes the blood of Christ during the mass for churches that believe in transubstantiation. It is far more likely that Sir Gawaine, who is in legend as the most Catholic of the knights, would have been buried with a flask of blessed Communion wine than the literal blood of someone who had not been corporate for 5-600 years! The cup and spear lasting, yeah, maybe, but not the blood.