S08.E18: Gateway

[MostlyC]

Quote

Nell and Eric go under cover to track a tech-savvy husband and wife linked to the hacking of the U.S. Treasury Department; a digital forensics specialist arrives from the NCIS cyber office in San Diego to run operations in Eric and Nell's absence.

[3girlsforus]

I'm sorry, but didn't Sam carry on a serious relationship with someone for the job while he was married with kids?  Why isn't he considered evil?  

[AlliMo]

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

I'm sorry, but didn't Sam carry on a serious relationship with someone for the job while he was married with kids?  Why isn't he considered evil?  

I think the implication was that Joelle and Callen had a sexual relationship, while Sam avoided doing so, and I still find it hypocritical.

About time Nell/Eric got some traction. They've drawn that one out far too long and at this point, I'd really rather see one or both establish a relationship outside of their jobs. Admittedly, Eric is my favorite and I dislike the way that he's written. He's clearly more than competent at his job and probably has the healthiest and most active social life outside of his work, and yet they continually portray him as clownish and awkward.

[Bobbin]

Hooray! The Bobsey Twins' facade of just being close coworkers is finally over -- to no one's surprise, including Hetty and the sly Owen, I'm sure. Cute couple. Interesting turn of events for NCIS:  three couples working side-by-side (including the SD techie and wife). When will Kensi and Deeks have the happy kids over for a barbecue?

Hmmm. Eric and Nell couldn't hit the driver at point blank, but Eric could hit the gas tank while rolling on the ground? I thought modern fuels were formulated not to explode like that. And with all the high tech spy stuff at their disposal, why didn't they just plant trackers on the other couple?

It seems that our LA-based agencies have a chronic problem, having terabytes of highly classified information stolen, exposing agents and compromising programs, to be sold to our worst enemies. And higher-ups think it's NCIS that has a security problem. Thank God for romantic relief.

[pennben]

I knew that there was no way Lane Kim would leave Stars Hollow for a life of crime:)

[Rascotes]

Seems I was the only one that was surprised to see Nell and Eric make with the kissing.  Not that there weren't hints but I thought for sure the writers would throw some random angst and drama at the audience first.

I was sort of thrown by the thing with Joelle.  Considering Callen's career and the things he's done, this seems like a weird point for him to get all fussy with someone about.  Maybe he was just upset because she managed to play him but it felt out of character for him to be making with the judgy looks and frankly careless and stupid to just show up in her driveway like that.  

On a positive note, they have toned down the blond Russian enough that I no longer find her to be annoying.  When she was first introduced she was such a try hard, silly character that she was impossible to like.  Now that they've dialed her back a bit, she's more palatable.  Not quite likable yet but a vast improvement.

[mtmjr]

5 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

 

I'm sorry, but didn't Sam carry on a serious relationship with someone for the job while he was married with kids?  Why isn't he considered evil?

 

Well, Jada, with whom Sam carried on that relationship, certainly considered him evil.  She never really came to terms with what he did to her, even after three years and getting engaged to someone else.  In this scenario, Callen is Jada, and I think his continued feelings of anger, hurt and betrayal are realistic and he's entitled to them.  

And wow, if Joelle really did carry on that relationship with Callen while maintaining a marriage and raising a little kid, then she's a better undercover operator than she first appeared!  I think Hetty should think about recruiting her, not judging her :)

[Lebanna]

Wasn't there an episode in season 1 where Callen went back to see his former undercover girlfriend and thought that her son was his? So he's slept with people and had long term relationships under assumed identities before. I guess it's ok for the guys to do that, but not Joelle.

[anna0852]

I think the difference is that Sam a) deeply regretted and still regrets hurting Jada and b) he had that relationship in the effort to bring down a dangerous warlord. Joelle cannot say the same.

[Misslindsey]

8 hours ago, AlliMo said:

Admittedly, Eric is my favorite and I dislike the way that he's written. He's clearly more than competent at his job and probably has the healthiest and most active social life outside of his work, and yet they continually portray him as clownish and awkward.

This. I am so with you on this. Eric is my favorite (I saw the actor in Avenue Q on Broadway many many years ago), but they write him so poorly. I feel like since Nell appeared in season two the writers dumbed him down a bit a made him way more awkward than season one Eric. Season one Eric was slightly awkward, but nowhere near what he is now. 

[Trey]

I don't know why they are making such a big deal about Joelle - her relationship with Callen wasn't even all that important in the show when it was going on.  I wish they would just drop it.

I enjoyed seeing Scott Grimes again - it's nice to know that, even though Red Team didn't get their own spinoff, they are still hard at work in their container offices.

And I liked the Eric and Nell stuff.

[betsyboo]

7 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Wasn't there an episode in season 1 where Callen went back to see his former undercover girlfriend and thought that her son was his? So he's slept with people and had long term relationships under assumed identities before. I guess it's ok for the guys to do that, but not Joelle.

Yes, but Callen wasn't married to someone else at the time. @AlliMo has it right -- While married to Michelle, Sam absolutely misled Jada but avoided sleeping with her. (allegedly).  Joelle is married with a child, misled Callen and still slept with him as part of her assignment (I assume. maybe she decided that on her own) Callen misled the old girlfriend and slept with her, but he was not married in his "real" (not undercover) life.

I'm not condoning any of these activities, but if we're going to assign guilt by degrees, Callen comes in third.

Why did Hetty even give Callen the address? Just so he could go there and gloat that he could find her???

[3girlsforus]

2 hours ago, Trey said:

I don't know why they are making such a big deal about Joelle - her relationship with Callen wasn't even all that important in the show when it was going on.  I wish they would just drop it.

 

I suspect to help turn Joelle into the devil so anyone who liked Callen with her will change their minds and love this paring with the vapid Russian woman. I personally think that all of this 'Joelle is CIA' is an afterthought and was never the plan when the started her character. If this was the plan all along they wrote it very poorly. 

[Just my 2 cents]

I remember that Callen was set up on a real blind date with Joelle.  He really liked her and he felt guilty about lying as to what his real career was since she was a nice person and a school teacher.  He knew that he would either have to be honest or break off the relationship, but he really liked her and the normalcy she projected.  Eventually he had to reveal who he really was and felt bad about lying.  All that aside, they are still in the same line of work.  She's just better at it than he is.  I suppose the problem is that except for the fact that she was a wife and mother of a 3 year old it kind of makes her seem so different from the kindhearted school teacher he felt bad about initially deceiving.  I guess Callen's problem with this is based on how guilty he felt about lying to her at the beginning of the relationship thinking that it was real.  I hope we never see her again, but who knows. 

[RobertDeSneero]

3 hours ago, betsyboo said:

Why did Hetty even give Callen the address? Just so he could go there and gloat that he could find her???

Did you even watch the last few minutes?  She thought that he was being negatively affected by what happened and that he needed to see her to get over it.  He even mentioned what was running through my mind, that it was possible that Hetty manufactured the whole scenario to manipulate Callen.  We'll probably see her again when they find Sabatini.

One might even wonder if she put Eric and Nell in the field together undercover in order to move them along in their relationship.  I'm happy to see my two favorite characters on the show hooking up and I like the idea of Hetty playing God over the lives of her surrogate children.  Maybe she is grooming Anna to be the woman that Callen needs in his life.

[123BP]

5 hours ago, Trey said:

I don't know why they are making such a big deal about Joelle - her relationship with Callen wasn't even all that important in the show when it was going on.  I wish they would just drop it.

I thought that at first, but I think I was wrong. Look at what we know about Callen: since season 1, I think the only intimate relationship he's had has been with Joelle. Before then, he had a relationship with Tracey (in the CIA) that ended badly (she abandoned him on a mission) and Kristen (while undercover and he had to leave her in order to maintain his cover). Sharov also alluded to a time when Callen was working in Russia and was deceived by a female asset and almost died (he directed Callen to the safe house). Until Joelle, Callen had no one to talk to about work or anything going on in his life. He doesn't have any personal connections: no old classmates, no relatives, nobody. The people he's closest to are Hetty and Sam and to a lesser degree, Arkady. He's not even close--on a personal level--with Kensi or the others at work. It struck me as a stark contrast with Deeks when Kensi mentioned in this episode how easily Deeks makes friends--and that's one of the things she loves about him. I think Joelle's comment was right on target; Callen was/is desperate for human intimacy. I can't even imagine not having someone to talk to about my job when I've had a horrible day; going without that for years would probably drive me crazy. And when he first met Joelle, he had to maintain his cover, and then when his cover was gone, he still couldn't talk to her about the minutiae of his work. Maybe he didn't love her, but having human connection is something most people crave and need. It may also be why his reaction was so intense and why his response was different from Sam's: Sam said they were fooled because they were human, but Callen said they'd been sloppy. When relationships fail, a lot of people aren't just angry at the other person; they're often more angry at themselves for letting the other person hurt them.

[123BP]

12 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Wasn't there an episode in season 1 where Callen went back to see his former undercover girlfriend and thought that her son was his? So he's slept with people and had long term relationships under assumed identities before. I guess it's ok for the guys to do that, but not Joelle.

That's true about Callen and Kristen, but you're assuming that he's done this on undercover assignments before and there's nothing to suggest that that's true. To do something once doesn't mean you do it twice. Plus, we don't know how "long term" that relationship was since his undercover character came in at the end of the action, and Kristen must have found solace with someone else rather quickly since her son was the age he would have been if Callen had been his father. And there's no indication that Sam or Deeks have ever had intimate relations with a woman when they've been undercover. Besides, it seems more complicated than simply having a physical relationship. That's what makes the characters and all their relationships and personal journeys interesting, especially Callen's.

16 hours ago, Bobbin said:

It seems that our LA-based agencies have a chronic problem, having terabytes of highly classified information stolen, exposing agents and compromising programs, to be sold to our worst enemies. And higher-ups think it's NCIS that has a security problem. Thank God for romantic relief.

Considering what we read in the news about all the leaks coming out of the actual intelligence services (largely due to outside contractors), these stories don't seem so far fetched anymore. More's the pity. As for Eric hitting the gas tank, wasn't that the extra fuel can hanging on the back? And if you get a bullet anywhere near a gas tank -- uh oh.

[123BP]

12 hours ago, mtmjr said:

 In this scenario, Callen is Jada, and I think his continued feelings of anger, hurt and betrayal are realistic and he's entitled to them.  

And wow, if Joelle really did carry on that relationship with Callen while maintaining a marriage and raising a little kid, then she's a better undercover operator than she first appeared!  I think Hetty should think about recruiting her, not judging her :)

I like your comparison of Callen to Jada (but, of course, Jada knew that her brother was a mass murderer and did nothing about it until forced to act while Callen was completely innocent).

Also, I think one reason Joelle was able to deceive Callen is because he was/is desperate for human intimacy. I'm glad Hetty judges her harshly.

[UncleChuck]

I love Nell, she's just about the cutest girl currently on my tv....but is there any woman in all of (warm) LA that wears more layers of baggy clothing than she does?

[greenbean]

So is Anna part of the team now? It does feel like they're about to be reorganised in a significant way. I'm undecided about her inclusion, but I find her fight scenes ridiculous. It's not convincing that a woman of her build is taking down grown men. At least with Kensi/Daniela her height gives some stature and she's more athletic. Anna/Bar has been cast as a love interest first and an agent second. Which probably says something about where the show is heading.

Speaking of, I noticed the ratings have been down these past few episodes. I'm sure the break didn't help, but the episodes since the "mole" storyline have been filler. There's some nice moments with Eric and Nell, and Sam does his best to make the plot compelling, but it's been underwhelming.

On 20/03/2017 at 6:37 PM, 3girlsforus said:

I suspect to help turn Joelle into the devil so anyone who liked Callen with her will change their minds and love this paring with the vapid Russian woman. I personally think that all of this 'Joelle is CIA' is an afterthought and was never the plan when the started her character. If this was the plan all along they wrote it very poorly. 

I thought Callen came across as a stalker ex-boyfriend when he went to her home. He needs to get over himself. The show has not done a good enough job of establishing his emotional issues, so to now suddenly have him all hurt and annoyed over Joelle's actions doesn't sit right. His comments to her in the boathouse were also obnoxious. If they're doing this to build up Callen/Anna, then it's stupid because imo Callen comes across badly, (and not in a good way), and Anna really is a non-entity.

On 20/03/2017 at 11:09 PM, 123BP said:

I like your comparison of Callen to Jada (but, of course, Jada knew that her brother was a mass murderer and did nothing about it until forced to act while Callen was completely innocent).

Jada was from war torn Sudan. A completely different culture. As the show established, she belonged to her brother. I see no point in making judgements about her actions, or comparing them to those living in the West. 

I also don't see the point in comparing Joelle to the team. They are all in a line of work where they lie and deceive others. It is only because the show has decided to demonise Joelle, we are now going down this road of measuring who has done what.

5 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

I love Nell, she's just about the cutest girl currently on my tv....but is there any woman in all of (warm) LA that wears more layers of baggy clothing than she does?

The actress is not a size 0, so she needs to be covered up. That's the impression I get. She is very cute though.

[callie lee 29]

1 hour ago, greenbean said:

I thought Callen came across as a stalker ex-boyfriend when he went to her home. He needs to get over himself. The show has not done a good enough job of establishing his emotional issues, so to now suddenly have him all hurt and annoyed over Joelle's actions doesn't sit right. His comments to her in the boathouse were also obnoxious. If they're doing this to build up Callen/Anna, then it's stupid because imo Callen comes across badly, (and not in a good way), and Anna really is a non-entity.

I thought this too!! I mean, I actually like Anna (and I like her with Callen), and I didn't even really like Joelle to be honest, but the whole revisitng and clearing of emotional wounds or whatever the point of him just showing up at her house is ridiculous. 

 

For those who enjoy the actress who plays Nell, you need to check out "A Cricket's Tale" form this season't It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Warning, it is a VERY different show than this one. Seriously. 

[123BP]

2 hours ago, greenbean said:

Jada was from war torn Sudan. A completely different culture. As the show established, she belonged to her brother. I see no point in making judgements about her actions, or comparing them to those living in the West. 

I wasn't judging Jada as much as I was simply pointing out a difference between the two based on the comparison made. The treatment of people around the world--particularly women and children--is inhumane due to conflicts and cultures and more, and yet even in those situations some take a stand for what is right (like Malala--and I am not comparing the fictional Jada to a real-life courageous person).

2 hours ago, greenbean said:

I thought Callen came across as a stalker ex-boyfriend when he went to her home. He needs to get over himself. The show has not done a good enough job of establishing his emotional issues, so to now suddenly have him all hurt and annoyed over Joelle's actions doesn't sit right. His comments to her in the boathouse were also obnoxious.

Callen's actions and speech looked and sounded nothing like a stalker to me. He showed up at her house once--and spoke to her briefly--and I heard nothing in his comments either there or at the boathouse that was obnoxious. He never called her a name (like Hetty did), he didn't raise his voice, he had questions that needed to be answered, and when he discovered that she was married, he was surprised, but when he discovered that she had a young child at home while intimately involved with him, I think he was more hurt--for himself and maybe for her son--than angry. Perhaps this brought back memories of his own mother and childhood and helped him see Joelle's character.

 

2 hours ago, greenbean said:

They are all in a line of work where they lie and deceive others. It is only because the show has decided to demonise Joelle, we are now going down this road of measuring who has done what.

While they might be all in the same line of work--working undercover and using false identities for ulterior purposes--they are not the same. I can't imagine any of the NCIS team members developing such a close emotional and sexual relationship with a "mark." Because Joelle says she was doing her job doesn't excuse what she did or the harm she caused. She knew Callen wasn't involved in any criminal activity; she told him when she was first outed that she had decided to end her assignment of surveillance on him because she began to care for him. But this was another lie; she never had any feelings for him. He's had to cut through a lot of BS to get to something that looks, finally, like the truth. I agree that the emotional journey of the characters hasn't always been a clean, straight line and well-developed. It's been difficult capturing and expressing the changes the characters are going through emotionally sometimes, but I think part of that is due to the type of show it is--being more crime action--and part is due to the fact that there are so many irons in the fire [Kensi's recovery and her relationship with Deeks, Callen's relationship with Anna, Deeks' situation with Whiting, the Eric-Nell relationship, the whole mole story line (which I thought was filled with plot holes), and the unforeseen situation with Miguel which may have necessitated story changes], and part is due to time constraints--you only have 42 minutes each week to add emotional development to your characters AND get in some action. It may be, too, that Gemmill is trying to tie up a lot of the loose ends that have been scattered throughout the series for several seasons all at once so that they can start "fresh" next season. Also, there tend to be gaps of days or weeks in the lives of the characters between episodes, so the writers can't show everything that happens in between but try to bring viewers up to speed through dialogue (like the opening comments about Jennifer, the Sam-Anna conversation, and even Eric's confession this episode). As for the ratings, the ratings slipped when they had that 3-week break due to the awards and such), but they seem to be inching steadily up. I'm hoping that the end of the season ends on a dramatic note.

Edited March 23, 2017 by 123BP

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 3/19/2017 at 6:26 PM, 3girlsforus said:

I'm sorry, but didn't Sam carry on a serious relationship with someone for the job while he was married with kids?  Why isn't he considered evil?  

Because it was all done for the "greater good", IOW, "as long as it isn't done to them".

I actually think that Callen seeing Joelle with an actual family (is her husband in the dark of her CIA affiliation and just think she is a preschool teacher?) helped Callen move on and see it really wasn't "personal".  I think he was hung up with trying to figure out if what he had with Joelle was "real" or not, but seeing she was actually married with a kid at the time, made him realize and accept he was just a mark.  I personally think that Hetty is upset at Joelle because she hurt a member of her team, but recognizes professional competency, of course, she also has her own "everything revolves around my decisions as being right and just" complex.

[KAOS Agent]

Joelle pulled a gun on Hetty and was set to kill her until Chegwidden showed up and knocked her out. This occurred in conjunction with her being complicit in the kidnapping and planned extreme torture of Kensi. I could see maybe one of the NCIS team going crazy and potentially attempting what Ferris did, but I don't see all of the rest of the team going along with it and helping. That's where Joelle went beyond "doing the job" and into bad territory.

I don't care for Hetty and don't know what she was trying to do by sending Callen to Joelle's house rather than just showing him the information that she's married with a kid, but she isn't totally wrong in trying to help Callen get a better picture of Joelle and the reality of his relationship with her - especially in light of Joelle's initial assertion that she broke it off because she had feelings for him, which seems to have been yet another lie. Giving Callen a clear picture of things should allow him to get past any lingering feelings he may have had about the whole thing. 

[anna0852]

20 hours ago, greenbean said:

So is Anna part of the team now? It does feel like they're about to be reorganised in a significant way. I'm undecided about her inclusion, but I find her fight scenes ridiculous. It's not convincing that a woman of her build is taking down grown men. At least with Kensi/Daniela her height gives some stature and she's more athletic. Anna/Bar has been cast as a love interest first and an agent second. Which probably says something about where the show is heading.

Speaking of, I noticed the ratings have been down these past few episodes. I'm sure the break didn't help, but the episodes since the "mole" storyline have been filler. There's some nice moments with Eric and Nell, and Sam does his best to make the plot compelling, but it's been underwhelming.

I thought Callen came across as a stalker ex-boyfriend when he went to her home. He needs to get over himself. The show has not done a good enough job of establishing his emotional issues, so to now suddenly have him all hurt and annoyed over Joelle's actions doesn't sit right. His comments to her in the boathouse were also obnoxious. If they're doing this to build up Callen/Anna, then it's stupid because imo Callen comes across badly, (and not in a good way), and Anna really is a non-entity.

Jada was from war torn Sudan. A completely different culture. As the show established, she belonged to her brother. I see no point in making judgements about her actions, or comparing them to those living in the West. 

I also don't see the point in comparing Joelle to the team. They are all in a line of work where they lie and deceive others. It is only because the show has decided to demonise Joelle, we are now going down this road of measuring who has done what.

The actress is not a size 0, so she needs to be covered up. That's the impression I get. She is very cute though.

Not sure where that size 0 remark came from. One of the things I appreciate about this show is that multiple female leads have all been developed into distinct and complex characters that are good at what they do and kick ass when they need too and yet all distinct from each other. Nell has her own style and I think it's quite cute and attractive. And frankly I'm glad to see women in law enforcement on my screen that aren't running around in 4-inch heels and low cut blouses.

[greenbean]

46 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

Not sure where that size 0 remark came from. One of the things I appreciate about this show is that multiple female leads have all been developed into distinct and complex characters that are good at what they do and kick ass when they need too and yet all distinct from each other. Nell has her own style and I think it's quite cute and attractive. And frankly I'm glad to see women in law enforcement on my screen that aren't running around in 4-inch heels and low cut blouses.

It's nice to think that it's just down to the characters having different personalities, but realistically it is always the non-modelesque character who conveniently has a personality that leads to baggy layers. I think she looks fine, but I'm not naive. A character like Anna or Kensi would never be dressed like this.

[anna0852]

Nell is short. She is not overweight by any stretch of the imagination. Quite frankly she has a bigger rack than Kensi or Anna and her clothes do make that apparent. She is dressed quite nicely and flatteringly. We frequently see her in nicely cut dresses with a light cardigan. That is hardly "baggy layers." 

[mtmjr]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

Joelle pulled a gun on Hetty and was set to kill her until Chegwidden showed up and knocked her out. This occurred in conjunction with her being complicit in the kidnapping and planned extreme torture of Kensi.

I don't think it's at all clear that Jo was complicit in the kidnapping or torture plot.  It seems completely out of character for her.  I think she was just asked to let herself be bound and discovered by Callen, and then went along with it.  I don't think she was in on the rest of the plot, or part of the clandestine cabal that turned out to be "the mole."

I think Joelle was just a worker bee CIA agent who got dragged into this plot without full knowledge.  She had already broken up with Callen months ago (and I still actually believe that she did that to save him and herself from getting more deeply involved).  As for the man and kid being her family, I'm not at all sure that's the truth (and neither is Callen, from what he said).  I think her saying that may just have been a way to get him to finally move on from this.  Don't forget, as I said before, that they had broken up months earlier.

[123BP]

3 hours ago, mtmjr said:

 I think she was just asked to let herself be bound and discovered by Callen, and then went along with it.  

Well, that doesn't make sense. Joelle said she got out of the whole thing because she cared for Callen (a lie), but she must have known that the guy she was working with--Ferris--was some kind of wack job. So, she's going to go along when he says, "Let me tie you up and then fake that I kidnapped you, so you can keep them all busy while I cut off the leg of the agent I have kidnapped." Oh, sure, no problem.

 

3 hours ago, mtmjr said:

I think her saying that may just have been a way to get him to finally move on from this.

Sorry, but I think the only reason Joelle would want Callen to "move on" would be because his not moving on is a real inconvenience for her. Like she said, he could've ruined a lot for her by coming to her house. And at the boathouse, she could tell that he wanted an apology--some acknowledgement that what she had done, deceiving him, becoming intimate with him for no legitimate reason, treating him like another "mark" and being part of the attack on NCIS whether she knew the entire story or not--and yet she refused to even say a simple, "I'm sorry." Nope. She was just doing her job. Boy, that gal has a heart of gold--heavy, hard, and lifeless.

[betsyboo]

5 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Not sure where that size 0 remark came from. One of the things I appreciate about this show is that multiple female leads have all been developed into distinct and complex characters that are good at what they do and kick ass when they need too and yet all distinct from each other. Nell has her own style and I think it's quite cute and attractive. And frankly I'm glad to see women in law enforcement on my screen that aren't running around in 4-inch heels and low cut blouses.

+1

[123BP]

6 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Because it was all done for the "greater good", IOW, "as long as it isn't done to them".

Yes, Sam's undercover operation was done for the "greater good." It seems strange to me that some folks seem to compare what the NCIS agents do when they go undercover--catching mass murderers who commit crimes against humanity (Khalid), drug dealers (King), arms dealers and terrorists (Sidorov and the Chechen terrorists) and more--with what Joelle did. There's no way to ever equate those criminals with any of the NCIS agents, and so to compare the actions and the reasons for the actions of Joelle with what the NCIS agents do is completely ludicrous.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

5 minutes ago, 123BP said:

Yes, Sam's undercover operation was done for the "greater good." It seems strange to me that some folks seem to compare what the NCIS agents do when they go undercover--catching mass murderers who commit crimes against humanity (Khalid), drug dealers (King), arms dealers and terrorists (Sidorov and the Chechen terrorists) and more--with what Joelle did. There's no way to ever equate those criminals with any of the NCIS agents, and so to compare the actions and the reasons for the actions of Joelle with what the NCIS agents do is completely ludicrous.

"Greater good" has a lot to do with being to the eye of the beholder.  Remember, Joelle started her undercover work ("War Cries") with Callen before the end of  the "White Ghost" episode arc (presumably when the whole CIA black op got foiled).  Based on the information, Joelle was already working undercover as a teacher when she ended up being assigned to get close to Callen.  When she was set up on the blind date, this was three episodes after Kensi went to Afghanistan.  It is possible that the CIA got wind of NCIS going to Afghanistan (and honestly they are probably thinking, WTH?!) so at that point, orders to keep tabs on Callen and NCIS:LA could have been a legitimate concern for the CIA.  So at that point, there isn't anything to make one think she isn't doing her undercover for the "greater good" in the eyes of the CIA.

[AlliMo]

50 minutes ago, 123BP said:

Yes, Sam's undercover operation was done for the "greater good." It seems strange to me that some folks seem to compare what the NCIS agents do when they go undercover--catching mass murderers who commit crimes against humanity (Khalid), drug dealers (King), arms dealers and terrorists (Sidorov and the Chechen terrorists) and more--with what Joelle did. There's no way to ever equate those criminals with any of the NCIS agents, and so to compare the actions and the reasons for the actions of Joelle with what the NCIS agents do is completely ludicrous.

The NCIS team frequently deceives and targets the friends and loved ones of these criminals, regardless of whether or not they may be involved with their activities. It may be for the "greater good," but that doesn't make it any less morally questionable. The mole storyline may have been about a personal agenda by a handful of rogue CIA agents, but let's not pretend that NCIS hasn't pulled quite a bit of both legally and morally questionable things that would warrant them being investigated by another agency, and they continue to wiggle out of any real consequences.

[KAOS Agent]

Joelle was a CIA agent operating inside the USA spying on a US citizen who works for a US government agency. She did this for years. That's so ridiculously illegal. If she was FBI, maybe, but as a CIA operative, she was always a rogue agent. If guy with kid is not her husband, then she is continuing to act as a rogue agent because they are US citizens inside the USA. Again, that's the purview of the FBI.

Edited March 24, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[123BP]

8 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

"Greater good" has a lot to do with being to the eye of the beholder.

Disagree. "The greater good" has little to do with the eye of the beholder because those being investigated, if they were the beholders, would probably find the investigation unwarranted. The "greater good" has to do with what is being investigated, and in the case of Callen, there was no illegal activity.

 

8 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

 It is possible that the CIA got wind of NCIS going to Afghanistan (and honestly they are probably thinking, WTH?!) so at that point, orders to keep tabs on Callen and NCIS:LA could have been a legitimate concern for the CIA

There's nothing about NCIS agents going to Afghanistan that is unusual. As Granger mentioned to Dugan, NCIS agents are operating in 40 different countries on any given day, and going after terrorists is actually part of their assignment, so their presence in Afghanistan wasn't unusual. If it was a concern for CIA operatives, they should have relayed this to their higherups and had them contact NCIS.

 

8 hours ago, AlliMo said:

The NCIS team frequently deceives and targets the friends and loved ones of these criminals, regardless of whether or not they may be involved with their activities. It may be for the "greater good," but that doesn't make it any less morally questionable.

Completely disagree. According to this train of thought, if NCIS suspected a person of planning a terrorist attack--and had some basis for this suspicion (purchases, chatter, etc.)--it would be morally questionable for them to try and get close to the suspect or friends of the suspect by going undercover in order to determine if there was an impending attack and thwart it. So, law enforcement would always just react to events and not try to prevent them if preventing them meant being deceptive to people who plan to harm others?

 

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Joelle was a CIA agent operating inside the USA spying on a US citizen who works for a US government agency. She did this for years. That's so ridiculously illegal.

Exactly! That's why this entire CIA plot was just ridiculous and her part was unbelievable. I don't work for the CIA, but I know that what she did was illegal. It is legal for the CIA, in conjunction with the FBI, operate in the US IF there is a foreign connection--but even this operation would be run by the FBI and the surveillance of another federal agent? Besides, a CIA operative would never be placed under cover at a school, let alone an elementary school; they would have an asset at the school, not an operative. This is really the fault of the writers, and it was surprising because usually they're good at getting these kinds of details correct. My own thought is that they had to make significant changes due to Miguel's health, and that the errors in this story were due to haste because of unforeseen events.

[123BP]

When Callen asked Joelle why they weren't having this conversation at the women's prison in Lompoc, that was my question, too. I just realized that NCIS has no proof that Joelle was targeting Callen. NCIS and Callen know what she was doing, but as far as her superiors know, she was "doing her job" at the school and her relationship with Callen was just incidental and unrelated--especially since she was working with rogue agents. And with all the other operatives involved dead or missing (as well as Carl, Natalie, and probably Heather), there's no way that NCIS could confirm what she was doing. In fact, NCIS probably couldn't prove that there were any CIA agents involved in the whole fiasco. Took me awhile.

Edited March 24, 2017 by 123BP

[UncleChuck]

Quote

5 hours ago, 123BP said:

...their presence in Afghanistan wasn't unusual. If it was a concern for CIA operatives, they should have relayed this to their higherups and had them contact NCIS.

 

As I followed the story, those CIA agents in Afghanistan were running some type of illegal operation that was profiting them personally (probably bribes or theft) and they could NEVER report those activities to their superiors.  That is why the rogue operation to punish the NCIS agents began.

If NCIS was actually interfering with a legitimate CIA operation, the CIA chief would have informed Vance and if Vance did not pull the team, then whoever is boss of Vance and the CIA could have intervened and made a decision as to which agency would stand down.  Since the agency chiefs were not involved, it seems obvious that the Afghan CIAs were operating completely out of policy and thus they began their personal vendetta.  They apparently dragged some unsuspecting CIA operatives (Joelle?) into working with them under the guise that it was an approved op, but Ferris and his cronies were never really operating as official CIA.  JMO

[123BP]

1 hour ago, UncleChuck said:

As I followed the story, those CIA agents in Afghanistan were running some type of illegal operation that was profiting them personally (probably bribes or theft) and they could NEVER report those activities to their superiors.  That is why the rogue operation to punish the NCIS agents began.

I never got that at all from what Sabatino and Ferris said--and Kensi seemed to imply that their operation was legitimate (and Sabatino was in Afghanistan on legitimate CIA business) because she didn't question them--but you may be right.

[UncleChuck]

31 minutes ago, 123BP said:

Kensi seemed to imply that their operation was legitimate (and Sabatino was in Afghanistan on legitimate CIA business) because she didn't question them

I do not doubt that Sabatino and every other CIA agent was in Afghanistan on legitimate business, but they were running some sort of illegal scam unknown to their CIA superiors.  Ferris (I believe) told Kensi that NCIS was being targeted because they were costing (Ferris & others) money.  That would not have bothered CIA bosses...they have plenty of (our) money.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

10 hours ago, 123BP said:

Disagree. "The greater good" has little to do with the eye of the beholder because those being investigated, if they were the beholders, would probably find the investigation unwarranted. The "greater good" has to do with what is being investigated, and in the case of Callen, there was no illegal activity.

There's nothing about NCIS agents going to Afghanistan that is unusual. As Granger mentioned to Dugan, NCIS agents are operating in 40 different countries on any given day, and going after terrorists is actually part of their assignment, so their presence in Afghanistan wasn't unusual. If it was a concern for CIA operatives, they should have relayed this to their higherups and had them contact NCIS.

If Joelle was asked to target Callen, there is nothing to say she knew whether or not what Callen was involved in, which would be a reason for her to be tasked to target Callen.  For all she knew, Callen and NCIS: LA was going rogue and running too many ops outside of their jurisdiction.  In terms of issues of the CIA investigating US citizens or not, I agree, that is illegal, but it seems like movies and TV shows ignore that issue as they love to use CIA = evil and corrupt so I don't really use that as part of the "eye of the beholder" equation for TV shows.  

Yes, and if NCIS operating in Afghanistan was no reason to cause the CIA to wonder WTH was going on, then there seems to have been an unrelated non-Afghanistan reason for Joelle to keep track of Callen, thus Joelle's actions were not related to the corrupt CIA Afghanistan action.

Edited March 24, 2017 by HawaiiTVGuy

[123BP]

5 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Ferris (I believe) told Kensi that NCIS was being targeted because they were costing (Ferris & others) money. 

 

2 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Yes, and if NCIS operating in Afghanistan was no reason to cause the CIA to wonder WTH was going on, then there seems to have been an unrelated non-Afghanistan reason for Joelle to keep track of Callen, thus Joelle's actions were not related to the corrupt CIA Afghanistan action.

I'm so confused!! lol  :-D