“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Reganne]

I don't know if it has anything to do with what is going on set.  It could be that they're trying to amp Sam's character up a bit.  I binged the first 11 seasons, and I couldn't help but notice that Sam was more often than not the one tied up/knocked out/needing to be saved while I was watching.  While watching reaction videos to the first episode of season 12, I noticed someone referring to Sam as a weak character, yet this is a show about 2 hunters who are suppose to be considered some of the best at what they do.  Personally, I don't think Sam was a weak character and he's definitely had his moments to shine in the past, but I think Dean was mostly shown to be a bit stronger when it came to fights/killing.... so in comparison some people might come to the impression that Sam was weaker.  

In saying that, I actually don't have a problem with Dean being the more capable fighter between the two as the characters have their own strengths, fears and weaknesses.  It would have been nice to see a little more balance at times though.  However, I don't know if it's just because I'm watching week by week and the episodes are fewer and far between, but I can see why some people would be upset with how Dean hasn't been getting the kills so to speak this season.  As much as I like seeing Sam coming into his own with his hunting skills, I don't think the pendulum should be swinging so much to one side.  I can only think that maybe they're setting it up for Dean to get the big kill/victory in the end.  If not, then I don't know what they have planned.  There are ways they can show Sam's capabilities without sidelining Dean IMO.  I like them as a team.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From the sounds of it, Jensen, Jared, Mark and Misha had a say in how the finale went down, and I believe that Dabb half-assed it because of his disinterest in the Amara storyline.

Was that not mostly down to Carver? Was he not meant to write the finale, but cancelled last minute to do something Frequency related, which left Dabb with little time to scramble a script together? 

[Wayward Son]

This might be better in the UO thread but I honestly wish the writers would delete all of their social media accounts and leave no way for fans to contact them. IMO it is attempts to appease the complaining fans that have created weaknesses and inconsistencies within the shows narrative. 

Im referring to all factions of fandom and not a particular group. I also think this level of unwelcome influence has been occurring for seasons now, unfortuantely.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

Dean's apparent lack of badassery is bringing out the classy side of the fandom.  Tweets to Andrew Dabb and his "inner Samgirl" and whether he hates Dean are all over the place. Just really immature.

While I agree it's immature, I'm guessing Dabb and et al have been around the show and fandom long enough to be prepared for it. I never understand what these people think they're accomplishing, though. Usually just makes all fans look petty and jerky while TPTB just seem to either ignore it or dig their heals in more. I mean, look what happened to Cass... . 

Always disappointing.

[Myrelle]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is reminding me a lot of s2 of Dark Angel.  I wasn't online a lot back then or in any fandom.  I never watched Days of Our Lives or smallvile so it was also really the first time I saw Jensen.  So I don't think it was just "Alec" bias when I noticed a sharp decline in focus, screen time and in Alec's character abilities.  Then it came out that behind the scenes politics very much played a role in this.

Good example. It happens and to think that it couldn't or wouldn't ever happen on this show is unrealistic-again, especially after what happened with Dean/JA in S6-8 under Gamble and then Carver, at the beginning of his tenure-until Jensen spoke to him/the writers about it. And then lo, we got the MoC storyline in S9.

So maybe JP DID speak to them and this is what we're getting. This is their attempt at "balancing" things out for Sam/JP and his fandom.

My question is why can't they write for TWO lead characters/actors, and write the characters as BOTH actually being lead characters for an entire season. It seems to me as if they presently attempt to split it into two seasons-The Dean season-which I guess was the first half of this one and the Sam season-which we're obviously getting now-the only trouble being that I can't and don't EVER remember Dean getting as many big kills in as many episodes in a row as Sam is getting and being given now; and this, even while Dean was carrying the MoC-when they really could have gone to town with that, if they'd actually written that story according to even the in-story/canon hype that they gave it.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The Dean season-which I guess was the first half of this one

While I have no trouble seeing this second part of the Season as the Sam-one - the amount of stanning is out of control to any time in the show before - I really can`t see the first part as the Dean Season. Sam still got big moments in it. Dean got kinda two moments. Otherwise, it was devoted to the BMOL and Lucifer. Maybe it wasn`t the Sam-Season but it sure as well wasn`t a Dean-Season. He truly got nothing this year. And I would bet a fortune he won`t in the future. Like this Season or any other that may yet come.  

Edited April 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 It seems to me as if they presently attempt to split it into two seasons-The Dean season-which I guess was the first half of this one and the Sam season-which we're obviously getting now-the only trouble being that I can't and don't EVER remember Dean getting as many big kills in as many episodes in a row as Sam is getting and being given now; and this, even while Dean was carrying the MoC-when they really could have gone to town with that, if they'd actually written that story according to even the in-story/canon hype that they gave it.

Even this this was the writers attention, Sam still had focus in the first half.  He wasn't a helpless victim in ep 1 and 2.  He got to brag about being tortured by the devil and almost saved himself.  Dean didn't end up saving Sam.  Mick did.  There was American Nightmare which focused heavily on Sam.  In both Asa Fox and Rock never dies he played just as much a role as Dean did, and in LOTUS at least Sam got to hold the Egg. 

Dean, basically spun his wheels in ep 1 and 2.  Mary saved him and Cas and Cas found the lead that led to Sam.  Dean ended up getting himself captured.  He literally disappeared in AN, and didn't factor into LOTUS much.

So while there was part of the first half I liked and enjoyed, Im don't see it as focus on Dean, but more balanced between the two.

Edited April 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While I have no trouble seeing this second part of the Season as the Sam-one - the amount of stanning is out of control to any time in the show before - I really can`t see the first part as the Dean Season. Sam still got big moments in it. Dean got kinda two moments. Otherwise, it was devoted to the BMOL and Lucifer. Maybe it wasn`t the Sam-Season but it sure as well wasn`t a Dean-Season. He truly got nothing this year.

IA. It was their "attempt" at that-same with 8(especially 8) and 9 and even 10. S11 went right over to a Sam season in the second episode and "Dean's" storyline was sprinkled in through sporadic episodes in that, again, mostly Samcentric season. And by the end of it, even "Dean's" apparent Chosen One sl became more about God and Amara's tempestuous sibling relationship than anything else-almost as if the original intention might have been to mirror Sam's Chosen One sl of S1-5 except we never got the same kind of spotlight/focus on the  duality of lightness and dark in Dean that Sam was afforded in his Chosen One sl-not half as many episodes, to be sure, and the resolution was, of course, much, much different; much less drama and excitement for the character or his fandom, writing-wise, IMO.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

as that not mostly down to Carver? Was he not meant to write the finale, but cancelled last minute to do something Frequency related, which left Dabb with little time to scramble a script together? 

. I think Carver ws effectively not involved in the show from at least the mid season finale of s11, probably before that. I think there is 4 to 8 weeks of lead time between when a script is written and filmed and that gap narrows as the season progresses. . So I think Carver must have known in February that he ws not going to be writing the finale. So whatever happened to that last 3 episodes must have been known in March at least by all parties before they started filming the final 3 in late March and April.

[Myrelle]

53 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even this this was the writers attention, Sam still had focus in the first half.  He wasn't a helpless victim in ep 1 and 2.  He got to brag about being tortured by the devil and almost saved himself.  Dean didn't end up saving Sam.  Mick did.  There was American Nightmare which focused heavily on Sam.  In both Asa Fox and Rock never dies he played just as much a role as Dean did, and in LOTUS at least Sam got to hold the Egg. 

Dean, basically spun his wheels in ep 1 and 2.  Mary saved him and Cas and Cas found the lead that led to Sam.  Dean ended up getting himself captured.  He literally disappeared in AN, and didn't factor into LOTUS much.

So while there was part of the first half I liked and enjoyed, Im don't see it as focus on Dean, but more balanced between the two.

Yeah, all of this is true, too. So maybe they've decided to just make both S11 and S12 basically more Samcentric. That's what appears to be the case to me, anyway.

Again, it's just too bad that these writers aren't talented enough to write for and to two lead and starring characters/actors at the same time. Even Kripke recognized that from almost Day One. 

I just don't understand why they would cut off their noses to spite their faces by not writing for one of their strongest performers(If not THE strongest performer) on the show and would go even further by dissing the character to the extent that they have in the second half of this season so far, because by dissing the character, they're also disrespecting the actor, and his fandom, too. Although, maybe they don't/won't care, unless Jensen himself speaks up again. So who knows, maybe that will be at contract re-signing time again, but at this point, I'd have a ton of trouble taking them at their word, if I were him. I'm sure the $ will always be tempting, but I would hope that he would still be as considerate and protective of how his character is being written as he's always claimed to be since the early days.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Well, for me the ratio of money vs. working hours is a good deal regardless but nevertheless I`d find it disappointing if he is just okay with them turning Dean into nothing but a goofy loser. He spent over a decade on the character and the show is working their damnedest to reduce him to a joke. I mean, to be honest, I think the character is very close to being permanently destroyed. If you can`t take him seriously anymore in any capacitiy, what is left? The clown? Thanks but no thanks. 

In that vein, it was super-ironic when Sam pontificated on the great legacy at the end. Dean`s, as a character in this show, is about to go poof. A couple more episodes like that and will anyone seriously remember the character as someone skilled or smart or charismatic? Without checking old DVDs to make sure you`re not dreaming it happened?

Edited April 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[auntvi]

I'm happy to see Sam get more kickass moments this season. I'm tired of him being seen as the victim (hello, torture porn) or the fool. Besides, chances are the season will end with Sam paying for his mistake of working with the BMoL and Dean pulling his ass out of the fire.

[ster1]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, for me the ratio of money vs. working hours is a good deal regardless but nevertheless I`d find it disappointing if he is just okay with them turning Dean into nothing but a goofy loser. He spent over a decade on the character and the show is working their damnedest to reduce him to a joke. I mean, to be honest, I think the character is very close to being permanently destroyed. If you can`t take him seriously anymore in any capacitiy, what is left? The clown? Thanks but no thanks. 

In that vein, it was super-ironic when Sam pontificated on the great legacy at the end. Dean`s, as a character in this show, is about to go poof. A couple more episodes like that and will anyone seriously remember the character as someone skilled or smart or charismatic? Without checking old DVDs to make sure you`re not dreaming it happened?

Quite frankly,  I don't know why the MoL even see Dean as any sort of threat at this point. Heck, I'm not sure why they'd even see him as one of America's premiere hunters.  Maybe in the past but not this season, that's for sure.  

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

This might be better in the UO thread but I honestly wish the writers would delete all of their social media accounts and leave no way for fans to contact them. IMO it is attempts to appease the complaining fans that have created weaknesses and inconsistencies within the shows narrative. 

Im referring to all factions of fandom and not a particular group. I also think this level of unwelcome influence has been occurring for seasons now, unfortuantely.

i really don't think they can.

1) I think they are almost required these days to engage on SM. I think Jensen joined Twitter not because he was super excited but was pushed to do it my CW PR.

2) I think many of  PTB enjoy  the interaction with the fan base.

3) Twitter now offers a special kind of setup so that verified accounts can actually filter out unwanted remarks that goes beyond the mute and block function. it like a separate thing so they may not even see the majority of the feedback.

r4) I truly don't think TPTB listen to anything tweeted at them I think they look at aggregate feedback from some marketing outfits.

IMO if they wrote to appease all factions Dean would be screwing Sam, and Cas, maybe at the same time, Charlie wouldn't still be dead, Bobby would be resurrected and John would have been murdered by Dean.

[trxr4kids]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO if they wrote to appease all factions Dean would be screwing Sam, and Cas, maybe at the same time, Charlie wouldn't still be dead, Bobby would be resurrected and John would have been murdered by Dean.

ZOMG! I snorted diet pepsi up my nose.... it burns!!! Thanks for that Catrox lmao.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

ZOMG! I snorted diet pepsi up my nose.... it burns!!! Thanks for that Catrox lmao.

LOOL. Sorry. but you know it's true!

[Aeryn13]

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Heck, I'm not sure why they'd even see him as one of America's premiere hunters. 

I don`t really think they do. He is just included in the package deal kill but nothing else.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, ster1 said:

Quite frankly,  I don't know why the MoL even see Dean as any sort of threat at this point. Heck, I'm not sure why they'd even see him as one of America's premiere hunters.  Maybe in the past but not this season, that's for sure.  

I know I'm not really watching or paying close attention anymore, because my hook character is essentially MIA now and please call me when he shows up again; but I think Aeryn is absolutely correct - from what I have seen I don't believe the BMoL see Dean as anything more than the Billy Carter addition to the family package. Individually it's impossible to buy that they care about Dean Winchester at all - he's simply attached to the other two Winchesters, so he's just there as collateral damage more than anything else. 

Otherwise, no, depressingly I don't see anyone shaking in their boots hearing the name Dean Winchester these days. Not season 12's Dean Winchester.

[Aeryn13]

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Otherwise, no, depressingly I don't see anyone shaking in their boots hearing the name Dean Winchester these days. Not season 12's Dean Winchester.

Seriously. Any Dean Winchester at any time previously on the show could easily beat him up. Even the dead ones. I speculated in the episode thread that maybe Rowena undid the memory loss spell but instead hit him with a much more malicious spell: one of patheticness. Because after that episode is when it started and it`s been getting worse ever since.   

[PAForrest]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Seriously. Any Dean Winchester at any time previously on the show could easily beat him up. Even the dead ones. I speculated in the episode thread that maybe Rowena undid the memory loss spell but instead hit him with a much more malicious spell: one of patheticness. Because after that episode is when it started and it`s been getting worse ever since.   

Remember the montage at the end of that episode, and how a lot of Dean fans thought it looked like a goodbye to the character?

Turns out it was.

[Aeryn13]

I know. Though in that case, they could have killed him off in a more dignified manner. Like they are doing it now, that feels mean-spirited. 

[catrox14]

I had a thought that maybe somehow this is all in Dean's head. Like he and Sam are still actually locked up in the black site and Dean has been slowly losing his mind. Like he feels useless and unable to do anything because he's still locked up and his worst nightmare (non being a demon division because that ship has sailed) is being unable to do the one thing he prided himself on being the best at and that he can't protect his brother or his mother from anyone because he's stuck in prison.

I swear it really would make so much of this make more sense. LOL Sigh.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had a thought that maybe somehow this is all in Dean's head. Like he and Sam are still actually locked up in the black site and Dean has been slowly losing his mind. Like he feels useless and unable to do anything because he's still locked up and his worst nightmare (non being a demon division because that ship has sailed) is being unable to do the one thing he prided himself on being the best at and that he can't protect his brother or his mother from anyone because he's stuck in prison.

I swear it really would make so much of this make more sense. LOL Sigh.

Head canon accepted.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Head canon accepted.

LOL that's funny. I'm grasping at straws here.

Just to add to my head canon.  He's thinking about the Colt because it's the one weapon he thinks would help kill anything and if he could just get his hands on that Colt then he could shoot his way out of the black site, kill Lucifer, and make everything okay.

OR alternate head canon, is that when Amara gave Mary back to Dean it took away all of his good hunting skills but he got the one big chance to kill Kill Hitler to stop another World War that God knew was coming but after that he would no longer be able to hunt properly.

OR another alternate head canon is that Dean is suffering early onset of dementia and than his memory loss that started in Regarding Dean is actually still happening throughout the remainder of the series and that he's losing his skills as a hunter because of it. They could actually make this a thing.

Edited April 14, 2017 by catrox14

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I had a thought that maybe somehow this is all in Dean's head. Like he and Sam are still actually locked up in the black site and Dean has been slowly losing his mind. Like he feels useless and unable to do anything because he's still locked up and his worst nightmare (non being a demon division because that ship has sailed) is being unable to do the one thing he prided himself on being the best at and that he can't protect his brother or his mother from anyone because he's stuck in prison.

I swear it really would make so much of this make more sense. LOL Sigh.

I don't believe these showrunners/writers are anywhere near that creative, deep, or talented; but, believe me, I would LOVE for you to be right because that sounds interesting. And it just might make the pain of this season somewhat bearable.  I guess I'll keep reading the recaps to see if you're onto something. Heh.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL that's funny. I'm grasping at straws here.

Just to add to my head canon.  He's thinking about the Colt because it's the one weapon he thinks would help kill anything and if he could just get his hands on that Colt then he could shoot his way out of the black site, kill Lucifer, and make everything okay.

OR alternate head canon, is that when Amara gave Mary back to Dean it took away all of his good hunting skills but he got the one big chance to kill Kill Hitler to stop another World War that God knew was coming but after that he would no longer be able to hunt properly.

OR another alternate head canon is that Dean is suffering early onset of dementia and than his memory loss that started in Regarding Dean is actually still happening throughout the remainder of the series and that he's losing his skills as a hunter because of it. They could actually make this a thing.

Wasn't the waitresses name Carmen?  The name of Dean's dream girl in What is and What Should Never Be

Or Dean didn't survive the confrontation with Amara and he's in The Empty.  If The Empty is your own personal hell,  Dean getting his mom back only to have her reject him, Sam not needing him anymore, being ineffective,  having to answer to someone he doesn't like would all fit things in Dean's personal hell. 

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Or Dean didn't survive the confrontation with Amara and he's in The Empty.  If The Empty is your own personal hell,  Dean getting his mom back only to have her reject him, Sam not needing him anymore, being ineffective,  having to answer to someone he doesn't like would all fit things in Dean's personal hell. 

Oh another good head canon! Yay!!

[AwesomO4000]

On 4/14/2017 at 9:24 AM, Myrelle said:

the only trouble being that I can't and don't EVER remember Dean getting as many big kills in as many episodes in a row as Sam is getting and being given now; and this, even while Dean was carrying the MoC-when they really could have gone to town with that, if they'd actually written that story according to even the in-story/canon hype that they gave it.

I do. In season 9, I think there was one episode where Sam killed something and Dean didn't (Gadreel kills don't count as that wasn't Sam), but Dean killed things all the time. Episode-wise, I think the count was at least 5 times higher for Dean killing things but Sam not, and body count wise it was  much higher than that. In "First Born" alone, Dean took out 3 demons even before he got the MoC, matching Sam's kill count for the entire season in that one episode, and that's even before we get to Abadon, the serial killer in "Thinman," the werewolf in "Sharp Teeth," and likely others that I'm forgetting. In season 10, Sam fared slightly better with a couple of werewolves in "Paper Moon" and the goddess in "Fan Fiction" and that one Stein in "Book of the Damned," but that was small potatoes compared to Dean's kill tally that season with the shifter in "Ask Jeeves," the witch in "About A Boy," Randy and the Rapists, who knows how many Steins, Cain, Death, and others I'm sure that I'm forgetting.

Now, I'm not saying that it wasn't Dean's turn, because it was, but I also think it was apparent that Sam was put in the background, damseled, or shown to be incompetent for most of season 9 and 10. In season 9, Sam basically did nothing of importance - unless it was negative - and ended with him ineffectually watching Dean die - not unlike how he ineffectively watched Sarah die in season 8. And season 10 ended with Sam being outsmarted by Rowena, unable to kill Crowley, and starting an apocalypse.

On 4/14/2017 at 9:49 AM, Myrelle said:

S11 went right over to a Sam season in the second episode and "Dean's" storyline was sprinkled in through sporadic episodes in that, again, mostly Samcentric season.

I'm not seeing how season 11 was "Samcentric" myself. Sure Sam had a few one-off episodes focused on him - for the first time in many, many seasons - but the mytharc wasn't much about him. Even his part in the Lucifer arc was over less than halfway through the season and then shifted to Castiel. And then Sam's part in the mytharc was mostly done except to be cheerleader at the very end. So I thought that the one-off episodes were a nice balance. And Dean still had a few of his own, too, like "Baby" and "The Vessel." I thought it was a fairly balanced season overall - Sam with some one offs, and Dean with the mytharc. I thought the Amara / Dean connection was explained fine and I enjoyed it. I loved season 11.

[Aeryn13]

But they are not just giving Sam episodic monsters to kill, they make sure that all are big kills. It`s a Prince of Hell (with Michael`s weapon for extra-insult), the Alpha Vamp, not just any hellhound but THE hellhound (lets forget Dean could have needed a hellhound kill, considering his backstory and Sam already got one with the trials) and now a God. Last Season it was Super-Strong-Sam, this Season it is Sam the heroic Slayer of super-monsters. 

When Dean had the MOC, his kills were often framed as violent and monstrous. Sam is portrayed as the shining wise hero hero who can do everything right now. 

Quote

And Dean still had a few of his own, too, like "Baby" and "The Vessel." I thought it was a fairly balanced season overall - Sam with some one offs, and Dean with the mytharc. I thought the Amara / Dean connection was explained fine and I enjoyed it. I loved season 11.

Now Dean had something in Season 11, which was the Amara connection. But they did their damnedest to not flesh it out, not make it exciting and not really make it seem like the big storyline of the Season. Why were they really connected after all? No idea. It`s vague. Why did she not suck out his soul? No idea, the writers didn`t put much thought into it. Why did everyone harp on Dean not killing her when he a) tried twice and b) he just failed because she was as powerful as God? Oh, I know that, it was to somehow paint Dean as "wrong" in the scenario. Not strong.

If that had been Sam`s storyline, I`m convinced it would have gotten way more fanfare and more pomp to it. Same for the Finale, they made sure to present it as little epic as could be and to downplay Dean`s role as much as possible. And in Season 12, they made sure to put that in verbally, well, or not put in anything about Dean`s role at all. Gee, thanks for nothing, show.   

And in turn I thought the MOTWs were horrible. Baby could go nominally to Dean but the Vessel? Usual, bystander!Dean watching other people do heroics? Not my idea of a Dean-friendly MOTW. And the less said about the Zanna episode and the werewolf one in terms of Dean`s portrayal the better. I consider those character-bashing episodes of the highest order. 

Which is what I consider the last few episodes of Season 12. The last one was the really the straw that broke the camel`s back IMO with once again Sam getting the kills and Dean being so fucking useless and incompetent. After the previous episode where the camera would just pretend he ceased to exist in the middle of scenes because he had nothing to contribute. 

This is even worse right now than the second half of Season 8. And I didn`t think that was possible.

[trxr4kids]

I was wondering about wardrobe choices for guest characters, specifically who decides how guest characters will dress? Does the writer include vague notes like hunter chic, uptight angel, etc. and the wardrobe dept. takes it from there or is it more specific? I only wonder because I've noticed the trend of the organized bad guys or their leaders at least wear suits, Angels, Crowley, Leviathans and now the BMoL. It makes me wonder if someone on the show thinks business wear equals pompous, self righteous asshat. I'll admit pantsuits feel evil but wearing them doesn't make someone kick puppies if they're not predisposed to do so even in flannel and denim. ; )

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

I was wondering about wardrobe choices for guest characters, specifically who decides how guest characters will dress? Does the writer include vague notes like hunter chic, uptight angel, etc. and the wardrobe dept. takes it from there or is it more specific? I only wonder because I've noticed the trend of the organized bad guys or their leaders at least wear suits, Angels, Crowley, Leviathans and now the BMoL. It makes me wonder if someone on the show thinks business wear equals pompous, self righteous asshat. I'll admit pantsuits feel evil but wearing them doesn't make someone kick puppies if they're not predisposed to do so even in flannel and denim. ; )

I think the costume designers work with primarily with the director, set designers and cinematographers to decide what the characters will wear. I don't see much reference to the writer's influence, but that is probably more between the director and the writer and the actors. But it's all just a big collaborative effort. 

I figured the shift to suits was to show the changes from demons doing their own willy nilly things to Crowley wanting Hell to be more organized. And to maybe imply that maybe dick angels and demons are not all that different. But that's just my take.

This all kind of sent me down a rabbit hole because I love all the behind the scenes stuff.  I find it fascinating myself.

 

From wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costume_designer

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A costume designer is a person who designs costumes for a film, stage production or television. The role of the costume designer is to create the characters and balance the scenes with texture and colour, etc.[1] The costume designer works alongside the director, scenic, lighting designer, sound designer, and other creative personnel. The costume designer may also collaborate with hair stylist, wig master, or makeup artist. In European theatre, the role is different, as the theatre designer usually designs both costume and scenic elements.t designers and cinematographers.

Designers typically seek to enhance a character's personality, and to create an evolving plot of colour, changing social status, or period through the visual design of garments and accessories. They may distort or enhance the body—within the boundaries of the director's vision. The designer must ensure that the designs let the actor move as the role requires. The actor must execute the director's blocking of the production without damaging the garments. Garments must be durable and washable, especially for plays with extended runs or films with near-real time pacing (meaning that most costumes will not change between scenes) but whose principal photography phase may stretch across several weeks. The designer must consult not only with the director, but the set and lighting designers to ensure that all elements of the overall production design work together.

 

http://artsalive.ca/collections/costumes/designer_role.php?lang=en

I thought this was an interesting piece from someone who does costume design for the theatre, but I would guess it's kind of the same for TV and film

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ollaboration

I work in collaboration with a number of people, but first with the director. I assist in the collaborative process by presenting the director with visual references, sketches, collages etc., in order to make sure that the images and ideas that I describe are on par with what the director envisions as we continue to meet and discuss. I also work closely with the other designers (sets and lights), wardrobe staff and actors. Theatre is an intensely collaborative art form, and it’s essential to learn how to work as a team. Good collaboration can happen when there is a solid, clearly articulated framework for the production. When each artist on the creative team team understands the production’s style and approach, everyone can work toward the same goal while maintaining enough flexibility to refine their ideas throughout the process.

In order to be a good collaborator, I need to prepare in the following ways for early discussions with the director:

• I read the script carefully and do a script and character analysis
• I look at the themes that I think warrant visual support
• I think generally about the style of the piece and collect images (pictures, poems, quotes) that seem to speak to the nature of the play as a whole

Before the second meeting I explore in detail the style that we have decided on for the production. I look at the way in which it will translate into clothing choices and how it will support the relationships and journeys of the characters. Usually I bring in lots of references at this point as well as rough preliminaries. We also look at ideas that have been presented for the set design (if I’m not also designing the set) to ensure that the costumes work with the visuals of the whole production. It’s important for me to be familiar with the technical practicalities of the set. For example, I’ll need to find out if the dress that I have designed for one character will fit through all the doors on the set. Ideally at this point, the other designers (of set and lights) would be at a meeting to iron out any mutual concerns.

ETA: and this is from a job description for costume design.

http://creativeskillset.org/job_roles/1756_costume_designer

Quote

Costume Designers' work helps to define the overall ‘look' of TV productions and films and their role requires a great deal of expertise. This must be achieved within strict budgets, and to tight schedules.

They work closely with the Production Designer to make sure the costumes fit in with their overall vision and work with the chosen lighting and camera angles. They also collaborate with the hair and make-up team to make sure a cohesive look is created.

During pre-production, Costume Designers break down scripts scene by scene to work out how many characters are involved and what costumes are required. They then develop costume plots for each character. Plots ensure that colours and styles do not mimic each other in the same scene, and highlight the characters' emotional journeys by varying the intensity and depth of colours.

Costume Designers must carry out research into the costume styles, designs and construction methods suitable for the time period, using resources such as libraries, museums and the Internet. They may also discuss costume and character ideas with performers.

They deliver initial ideas to Directors about the overall costume vision, character plots and original costume designs, using sketches and fabric samples. They also discuss colour palettes with the Director of Photography and Production Designer.

[trxr4kids]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This all kind of sent me down a rabbit hole because I love all the behind the scenes stuff.  I find it fascinating myself.

Wow, thanks Catrox that was really interesting, it is pretty fascinating to think about all the things that go into making a show that you don't even notice unless it's done poorly because then you can't help but notice.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Wow, thanks Catrox that was really interesting, it is pretty fascinating to think about all the things that go into making a show that you don't even notice unless it's done poorly because then you can't help but notice.

I think this show is shamefully overlooked at awards time for it's set design and cinematography especially. The hotel rooms alone deserve some kind of recognition and the outdoor shots are often so stunning that I can't believe nothing for cinematography.  Sigh. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, ilovedean27 said:

Honestly, Dean's gut instincts have always been a bit better than Cas' and Sam's. *shrugs*

And in my opinion it is borderline Mary Sue and frustrating that Dean's instincts get to be perfectly perfect in every way, while apparently everyone else's sucks *shrug* 

[ilovedean27]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And in my opinion it is borderline Mary Sue and frustrating that Dean's instincts get to be perfectly perfect in every way, while apparently everyone else's sucks *shrug* 

Mary Sue, Gary Stu, it's the way things are. *shrugs*

It's actually one of the things about Dean that seems to be consistent. I like it. 

[SueB]

IMO  the storyline is generally bouncing between the two.  If someone has a secret or a mystery, we get less insight into their head.  In terms of kills, I think it started off more balanced and but has been "Dean kills, Sam plans"- leaning for many years.

S1: Dean started off more of a secondary character. I think that changed when the EPs realized Jensen's strengths.  Faith was a game changer IMO. Equal "competency" on kills with Sam probably getting a few more obvious "hero shots" than Dean.  Edge to "Sam" this season IMO.

S2: Dean rose significantly in stature compared to S1, right from the jump.  But Dean also had a secret, so we just saw him acting out without understanding the why until the talk that started at the end of Croatoan.  Sam's story was center-stage for quite a while but the season ends with a BIG Dean kill and Dean arc cliff-hanger. Balanced this season IMO.

S3: It was all about Dean's deal but there was a great deal of focus on Sam's perspective.  Ruby showed up being all sketchy and she was always attached to Sam more than Dean.  Mystery Spot was a HUGE episode with incredible insight into Sam. Cliffhanger was Dean in hell. Balanced this season IMO.  

S4: Sam has a secret and Dean has the 'mission from God' plot.  I'd put this as a more Dean-centric season.

S5: Dean centric POV for much of the season, Sam gets the big hero moment at the end. Sam cliffhanger. I'd put this as a balanced season.

S6: Again Sam has a secret so we get mostly Dean's POV.  That's three-years in a row, in particular, where it feels like Dean is the narrator.  The season ends with a big Godstiel moment.  Sam was a seriously badass stone-cold killer, Dean had more of our empathies IMO.  But Sam's POV finished strong with the finale.  I'd call this season balanced.

S7: That was a balanced all-around year IMO.  Sam had good stuff, Dean had good stuff.  Dean's depression and obsession w/ Dick was close to the "secret" kind of an issue.  Felt like we understood where Sam (even WITH Hellucinations) was coming from.  I'd put this as a balanced season.

S8: Dean looks badass and Sam looks sucky at the start of the year.  There was so much conflict ALL year, it was hard to really feel good about anyone's arc IMO.  Then Sam gets the trials but we start to lose his perspective and if feels like Dean narration again.  This is a probably balanced season on a whole although it wildly swung from side to side a bit. 

S9: Dean was lying and we all were thrilled Sam was alive but knew Dean was making a mistake the longer the season went on without talking to Sam.  With Gadreel inhabiting his body, we really didn't get as much Sam perspective until Gadreel left.  Once Dean picked up the Mark of Cain story, and that story came to the front at the end of the season, this became a more Dean-centric year.  So, kind starts off Sam, then both, then Dean.  I'd give the edge to a Dean in this year.

S10: Dean was a badass all year.  And sometimes just "bad" (as in doing the wrong thing).  Sam was the hero at the start and made most of the decision making for the bulk of the year.  At the end, though, with Sam lying to Dean, Dean looked more sympathetic.  I'd say this was a more Dean-centric year.

S11: Sam was the emphasis for the first half, Dean's story was a slow-burn until the second half.  Chuck dominated at the end.  Still, even with Chuck around, I'd say Dean got some of the "juciest" stuff.  I'd say this was more of a Dean-centric year.

S12: Sam is getting the bigger kills.  Feels more like S1 in terms of Sam being just a competent as Dean as a hunter.  Dean seems to be letting Sam lead in many ways.  But they feel like they are in the BEST spot, as a team, that I've ever scene.  The season isn't over... I personally suspect that while Sam has had a lot of highlight reel moments, Dean is going to get bigger emotional scenes by the end of the year (just my guess)

 

Again, this is a bitterness thread... so I'm just giving my opinion.  I LOVE BOTH BOYS.  I'm happy when EITHER do well.  This is just how I see the writing. And I 100% disagree that there is a SYSTEMIC bias towards one or another character.  I see that as misalignment of fan expectations with a heavy emphasis on a 'scarcity mentality' (i.e. if the one I don't like is doing well, then my favorite character is doing poorly).  I think that's bullshit -- I don't think that's the writer's intent and definitely not the actor's intent.  Some writers do better with specific characters but I think both are beloved by the show. SPN Fandom is hard to please.    

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

 In terms of kills, I think it started off more balanced and but has been "Dean kills, Sam plans"- leaning for many years.

I don't remember how far Demented Daisy got in her analysis season wise but I recall it was fairly balanced. I think it makes sense though if Dean had more kills and Sam had more plans in recent seasons due to the MoC. My problem is that it feels like Sam and Dean really aren't the main characters this season since for the first time the mytharc isn't directly tied to either of them and it's throwing me off.

[SueB]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

I don't remember how far Demented Daisy got in her analysis season wise but I recall it was fairly balanced. I think it makes sense though if Dean had more kills and Sam had more plans in recent seasons due to the MoC. My problem is that it feels like Sam and Dean really aren't the main characters this season since for the first time the mytharc isn't directly tied to either of them and it's throwing me off.

THAT, I think, is the biggest issue potentially underlying the way folks feel about the season.

Neither is in direct peril.
There's no resentment between the two of them.

Instead, what we are getting is character insight for BOTH Sam and Dean but it's in response to the circumstances they find themselves in (Mary's return, BMoL arrival, the Devils' spawn). 

So far, the boys seem 100% lock-step about needing to deal with Kelly Kline and baby and not preparing to just put a bullet in her head or body.
The boys are both reacting STRONGLY to Mary's arrival and subsequent distance but they are reacting differently.  This is the strongest 'emotional' story for both IMO.
The boys are both now see some value in the BMoL but both think their "code" is horseshit.  This is, I suspect, potentially the longer-term series-impacting arc (in terms of how they hunt) but I could be mistaken.

[auntvi]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Neither is in direct peril.
There's no resentment between the two of them.

Instead, what we are getting is character insight for BOTH Sam and Dean but it's in response to the circumstances they find themselves in (Mary's return, BMoL arrival, the Devils' spawn). 

 

This has been a pleasant surprise for me after the beginning of the season when Sam was alone and almost powerless.  They've each been dealing with Mary and the BMOL differently, but at least now Sam's story isn't being told from Dean's point of view.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

And in my opinion it is borderline Mary Sue and frustrating that Dean's instincts get to be perfectly perfect in every way, while apparently everyone else's sucks *shrug* 

Does it count as Mary Sue when no one listens to him?

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Does it count as Mary Sue when no one listens to him?

Nope!  A Mary Sue is always right, everyone always agrees with them and are awestruck by their intellect, are perfect in every way and is without flaws of any kind. Dean is not written to be a Mary Sue; having good instinct doesn't qualify in my humble opinion.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, SueB said:

S4: Sam has a secret and Dean has the 'mission from God' plot.  I'd put this as a more Dean-centric season.

 

 

I thought s4 was more or less balanced for both characters. But then I never thought Sam's POV was particularly missing just because the demon blood thing wasn't revealed until later. His choices made me angry but IMO I thought his reasons were pretty straight forward from the jump with wanting vengeance on Lilith because it matched his vengeance quest for Jessica and in Mystery Spot.  But that's just how I saw it.

[ster1]

On 4/14/2017 at 5:57 AM, ILoveReading said:

I think the problem is Dabb.  For some reason he has zero interest in Dean as a character.  I think that it dates back even further than this season.  I think he was in charge most of last year, unofficially.  Despite the premier focusing heavily on Dean/Amara all Dabb could talk about at comic con was Sam's visions.  Not to mention no follow up with Death.  Form and Void, Devil in the Details, 11.17, all followed the patter of episodes we've been seeing since 12.12.  With Dean removed from majority of the action.  The Dean/Amara had connection had very little development

5

This is what worries me the most.

After how he wrote the brothers last season, I was apprehensive about Dabb taking over as showrunner.  His vision of their respective roles on the show just seemed so lopsided. Except for the finale, Dabb's S11 episodes showcased Sam as this larger than life, awe-inspiring heroic character.  Which would've been fine had Dean, in contrast, not been put on babysitting duty, sidelined with smiting sickness, and needed to have his ass saved by a seriously injured Sam. I really believe that the only reason Dean was the one to resolve the situation with Amara was because it was required by the story Carver had already set up.

Even so, I'd hoped I was wrong and maybe Dabb was would treat the brothers more evenly once he took over.  Instead, it's just gotten worse.  We've all but lost Dean's POV.  We don't see any of his past leadership abilities. He barely contributes to the research but then he's not given the chance to shine on the actual hunts either.  He no longer bonds with guest characters,  leads witness interviews, or gives his trademark inspirational speeches. Dean's history with Michael, hellhounds, his experiences in Hell, his time as a vampire have all been forgotten. Even past accomplishments like averting the crisis with Amara are now credited to someone else.  A few episodes with this sort of thing and I might have said difference between writers. A whole season? Is a pattern. 

I think one of the main reasons this might not be as obvious to some viewers is because Jensen's such a charismatic, talented actor with a lot of screen presence. He brings nuances even when the script gives him little to work with. But still, at the end of the day,  Dean could have been taken out of this entire season without any real impact. And if this indeed is Dabb's take on the brothers -  Sam as the main heroic lead with trusty, good for a laugh Dean bringing up the rear - there's also a good chance this new status quo might continue into next season. In that case, it would mean my finally giving up on the show. I love Dean but it's just too hard to watch him be stripped of all his iconic qualities and become irrelevant. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But then I never thought Sam's POV was particularly missing just because the demon blood thing wasn't revealed until later. His choices made me angry but IMO I thought his reasons were pretty straight forward from the jump with wanting vengeance on Lilith because it matched his vengeance quest for Jessica and in Mystery Spot.

That might have been what they were going for - that Sam's motivations were supposedly straightforward - but for me, they didn't succeed and instead just glossed over Sam's POV or outright skipped it when it wasn't convenient. For example, one of the most important character developments - when and why Sam started drinking demon blood in the first place - was never even addressed. If it was simply for revenge, then why not show that? Why not show Ruby convincing Sam that if he wanted revenge on Lilith, he had to drink the demon blood to get strong? Show Sam struggling with that decision... that is POV, where we see that kind of decision and understand why a character decided to do what he/she did. We weren't shown any of that.

We were shown the reason for why Sam stopped drinking demon blood, and it was a pretty good one... But that can't be said - at least in my opinion - for why Sam decided to start drinking demon blood again, because what does "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" even mean, and what does it have to do with revenge? If revenge was supposed to be Sam's motivation and that was straightforward, what was that second declaration all about? And did Sam actually need the blood for his powers or not? Because that was never outright stated. He seemed to need it - and that's where I am leaning - but Ruby seemed to say not... or was she talking about the decision making being the thing Sam didn't need the blood/"feather" for? Or was she lying about all of it - since she was a huge liar - and the blood not only gave Sam the power, but also affected his decision making? Because Sam's decision-making sure seemed affected to me when he was on demon blood. These are all things that are up for interpretation, and for me, if the POV was adequate, there would be at least some really good clues one way or the other. Or at least a scene where we could see and sympathize/understand Sam's decisions. My opinion on that one.

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

When Dean had the MOC, his kills were often framed as violent and monstrous.

This was the same as Sam in season 4, but for Sam it was even more so, and there was a difference... Sam was shown to be wrong in season 4. Dean was not shown to be wrong in season 10 - Sam was. Sam lied and "cured" Dean even though Dean told him not to, and then his decisions lead to the Darkness rising. Dean was even shown to have a plan of his own until Death had to put a crazy caveat on it and Sam screwed it up... so basically Dean's plans were thwarted by every one else's bad decisions. His kills being framed as violent weren't the point, because Dean still was able to control himself and make rational, moral decisions... not a courtesy afforded Sam in season 4, in my opinion.

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam is portrayed as the shining wise hero hero who can do everything right now. 

Except apparently not figure out that the BMoL are incompetent and evil... even when it's right in front of him. I remember that even you said Sam's deciding to join the BMoL at the end of "The Raid" made absolutely no sense. And sure Dean "went along," but for me it more looks like Dean is just done and going along because he has little choice... Since everyone else is apparently clueless and someone has to be there when it all goes belly up.

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now Dean had something in Season 11, which was the Amara connection. But they did their damnedest to not flesh it out, not make it exciting and not really make it seem like the big storyline of the Season. Why were they really connected after all? No idea. It`s vague. Why did she not suck out his soul? No idea, the writers didn`t put much thought into it. Why did everyone harp on Dean not killing her when he a) tried twice and b) he just failed because she was as powerful as God? Oh, I know that, it was to somehow paint Dean as "wrong" in the scenario. Not strong.

For me, Dean's Amara connection was no less vague than Sam's blood-drinking in season 4 (see my above comments), and at least there was an attempt to explain it in my opinion. Amara stated that she and Dean were connected due to the mark, and there had been explanations in season 10 that the mark affected Lucifer when he had it... for me implying some sort of "connection" to Amara - which would seem to support Amara saying that she and Dean had a connection. I thought it came across pretty well that for Amara, Dean was a representation of Chuck's creation: one she could interact with without harming or corrupting him... the why of that? Maybe Amara didn't even know, but for me that "why" was less important, because it didn't affect Amara's motivation or Dean's. As for Dean supposedly being painted as wrong, I didn't get that feeling. Castiel seemed to question it, but he's not always the most observant. Sam definitely told Dean that he had no chance against Amara, because she was God-strength powerful. Dean questioning himself was in character, because Dean does that sort of thing. The brother shown as "wrong" in season 11 was Sam when he was wrong about his visions but went to see Lucifer anyway and Dean had to come save him. But I expected that from the beginning of the season - I knew it was Lucifer right away - so ehn...

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If that had been Sam`s storyline, I`m convinced it would have gotten way more fanfare and more pomp to it. Same for the Finale, they made sure to present it as little epic as could be and to downplay Dean`s role as much as possible.

All valid opinion, even if I don't agree.

I thought it was shown how important Dean was, with even Amara and God acknowledging it. If they really wanted to downplay Dean's role - which I didn't see - I don't see why there would be such obvious acknowledgements and Sam's role would be more than just cheerleader - literally. But even with Sam's small role, I loved the finale and the season... and for me, of course Dean solved the problem without "pomp" - which on this show is usually bad rather than good - because Dean is smart and if he can find a way to save everybody he will - and that's exactly what he did.

As for if it was Sam's story, he would get more "fanfare," I'm not sure there is much evidence for that - or if there was fanfare, that there is much evidence that the fanfare would be positive. Sam's record is: one got killed with bonus unnecessary questionable kill (season 2), one flashy win (season 5), two fizzling failures (season 3 and season 9), one nice try failure (season 6), one behind the scenes assist (season 7), one fizzling did not finish (season 8), and two epic failures (season 4 and season 10). Not much of a track record pointing to "fanfare and pomp" for me.

Dean has had his own share of misses, I agree, but at least his successes - season 2, season 7, season 9 assist, and season 11 - outnumber them, and that's not even including season 5 where I give Dean another assist (I realize you do not) and season 6 where Dean at least helped get most of the purgatory monsters back into purgatory.

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Baby could go nominally to Dean

Why do you say only nominally? Dean was the one who saved everyone, including Sam (who was likely monsterfied by that time)... and Dean did it with epic fights and heroic determination. Much of the POV was with Dean as well. Even Sam's waitress was all "ooh, hello there" when she saw Dean. For me, "Baby" was very much a Dean episode. And an awesome episode at that.

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And the less said about the Zanna episode and the werewolf one in terms of Dean`s portrayal the better. I consider those character-bashing episodes of the highest order.

I respect your opinion, even if I don't get it. I thought Dean holding off on killing the werewolves - who were obviously amateurs and no big deal - because he was worried about testing the mark and waking up potentially dangerous things was an example of Dean considering the big picture and being cautious rather than character assassination - especially since it was shown two episodes later that Dean was perfectly capable of killing the bad guy, and that maybe Dean was right to worry about waking up the mark  - but I get that miles vary. Similarly, I don't think the Zanna episode was character assassination. It obviously showed Dean working on John to get Sam to come and Sully confirmed that Dean took great care of Sam.

And as I think I've said before, it wasn't Dean's responsibility to make sure that Sam was happy / not lonely at all times, and I don't think the episode was even implying that it was Dean's responsibility. And, I for one, was happy to see that Dean was somewhat of a normal teen. This might be an unpopular opinion, but the idea of a Dean super-focused on taking care of Sam's every need / emotion / etc. to the detriment of his own happiness and well being kind of creeps me out personally. It's almost obsessive / stalkerish to me... it might make for some interesting, creepy fanfic at times, but in the show itself... just no.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Except apparently not figure out that the BMoL are incompetent and evil... even when it's right in front of him. I remember that even you said Sam's deciding to join the BMoL at the end of "The Raid" made absolutely no sense. And sure Dean "went along," but for me it more looks like Dean is just done and going along because he has little choice...

But by having Dean join up as well - and that after being played the fool by Sam in a way that they pretty much handwaved away because Dean was not allowed to even be angry at that but had to meekly accept it and have it called character growth - they took the heat of off Sam. Right now if anyone were to be blamed for joining with the BMOL, it would be Dean. Since that is how that show rolls.

Meanwhile, yes, Sam joining made no sense at all. But the way the show portrays the character right now, it is apparently because he is so ultra-good and kind and sees only the best in people ever so he gave them a chance. And wouldn`t you know, he turned Mick who got a little redemption arc along the way. Once the BMOL will show their true faces, even ultra-good Sam will sigh heavily and accept it. Until then, it`s not gonna be played as a negative against him.

Same as searching out Lucifer last year. It wasn`t ever adressed in terms of "why the hell did you think God singled you out as the saviour, dude?" Nope, Sam was kept as the super-good lamb who just wanted to sacrifice himself for mankind. And then they hastily transferred the screw-up part to Cas.

If that wasn`t teflon, I don`t know what was.

Quote

After how he wrote the brothers last season, I was apprehensive about Dabb taking over as showrunner.  His vision of their respective roles on the show just seemed so lopsided. Except for the finale, Dabb's S11 episodes showcased Sam as this larger than life, awe-inspiring heroic character. 

I knew it would end like this when Dabb took over. His penchant for super!Sam AND weak, unimportant loser!Dean is just too damn great. And obviously, he found a more than willing disciple in Perez who takes it up to another level. Berens got on this train. Even the duo jumped on board. And now Bring did the same. Doesn`t leave much.

It`s also why I do not remotely believe the pendulum will swing back to Dean`s side. EVER. The Sam-worship and Dean-bashing is most likely here to stay because if the showrunners thinks of one character as the epitome of wonderfulness and the other as the gum that sticks under the hero`s shoe, that`s hardly gonna change.      

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Quote

Except apparently not figure out that the BMoL are incompetent and evil... even when it's right in front of him. I remember that even you said Sam's deciding to join the BMoL at the end of "The Raid" made absolutely no sense. And sure Dean "went along," but for me it more looks like Dean is just done and going along because he has little choice...

But by having Dean join up as well - and that after being played the fool by Sam in a way that they pretty much handwaved away because Dean was not allowed to even be angry at that but had to meekly accept it and have it called character growth - they took the heat of off Sam. Right now if anyone were to be blamed for joining with the BMOL, it would be Dean. Since that is how that show rolls.

Meanwhile, yes, Sam joining made no sense at all. But the way the show portrays the character right now, it is apparently because he is so ultra-good and kind and sees only the best in people ever so he gave them a chance. And wouldn`t you know, he turned Mick who got a little redemption arc along the way. Once the BMOL will show their true faces, even ultra-good Sam will sigh heavily and accept it. Until then, it`s not gonna be played as a negative against him.

Same as searching out Lucifer last year. It wasn`t ever adressed in terms of "why the hell did you think God singled you out as the saviour, dude?" Nope, Sam was kept as the super-good lamb who just wanted to sacrifice himself for mankind. And then they hastily transferred the screw-up part to Cas.

If that wasn`t teflon, I don`t know what was.

Quote

After how he wrote the brothers last season, I was apprehensive about Dabb taking over as showrunner.  His vision of their respective roles on the show just seemed so lopsided. Except for the finale, Dabb's S11 episodes showcased Sam as this larger than life, awe-inspiring heroic character. 

I knew it would end like this when Dabb took over. His penchant for super!Sam AND weak, unimportant loser!Dean is just too damn great. And obviously, he found a more than willing disciple in Perez who takes it up to another level. Berens got on this train. Even the duo jumped on board. And now Bring did the same. Doesn`t leave much.

It`s also why I do not remotely believe the pendulum will swing back to Dean`s side. EVER. The Sam-worship and Dean-bashing is most likely here to stay because if the showrunners thinks of one character as the epitome of wonderfulness and the other as the gum that sticks under the hero`s shoe, that`s hardly gonna change.

And the answer to that tvline question in the spoiler thread only reinforces this entire post, IMO; but especially the bolded part. Dabb is completely deconstructing Dean and even Jensen can't stop it and yet still, it's not enough for some in this fandom. And he is here to please them, so yeah, I shudder to think of what's to come for Dean in s13. Not sure that I can watch it either.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

Quote

I honestly do not understand this.  Sam gets called out on his mistakes ALL the time.

Not for being stubborn and set in his ways. They're both that way, but Sam hasn't been called out on it by anyone since John said that they were more similar than Sam thought they were 12 years ago, and that was it. Unless someone can come up with another time within show because I can't.

But Dean has been soundly "schooled" on this grievous flaw of his many and numerous times over the series, although the worst of it was in the first 5 seasons. But they still go back to that well whenever they need a scapegoat. Samantha Smith even said that Mary was stubborn "like Dean" in that one interview she gave while she named Sam to be "so kind and understanding" in the same interview.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But by having Dean join up as well - and that after being played the fool by Sam in a way that they pretty much handwaved away because Dean was not allowed to even be angry at that but had to meekly accept it and have it called character growth - they took the heat of off Sam. Right now if anyone were to be blamed for joining with the BMOL, it would be Dean. Since that is how that show rolls.

If you are referring to blaming Dean specifically, I disagree.  If you are meaning "not allowed to be angry" in general, I might give you a bit more leeway, but it works both ways and often the other way... since as I've said, Sam wasn't "allowed" to be angry with Dean in season 9 without being made to look awful and then to see the light and have "character growth" that apparently Dean was right to lie to him about Gadreel for months (with the show even having Sam declare Gadreel a "real friend") and then get saddled with raising the Darkness - which Dean was absolved from* - when Sam did the same thing as Dean. So basically Dean does it, and it's fine and results in a "real friend" and helping to save the world, but Sam does it, he causes an apocalypse - which Dean has to fix.

* And just saying that it was Chuck, and so somehow "doesn't count," to me, is not what the show was showing. The point is that Chuck is literally "the word of God" on this show, and according to God, Dean becoming a demon was no big deal... the resulting problems were Sam's fault.

But as it is, we haven't gotten there yet, and I'm guessing that it's not going to be Dean that's blamed, but Sam and Mary, because in my opinion that's how the show rolls - as we saw with many other situations in this show.

So for me, there are other ways to interpret how the show rolls.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile, yes, Sam joining made no sense at all. But the way the show portrays the character right now, it is apparently because he is so ultra-good and kind and sees only the best in people ever so he gave them a chance.

Which could just as easily be showspeak for Sam "means well," but as usual, he should've just listened to Dean, because as usual, Sam's supposedly naive - i.e. not the brightest bulb in the chandelier - since one would think Sam already learned that lesson from Ruby and his Lucifer visions last year, but nope, Sam can't have that character growth, apparently. Because how is "seeing only the good" a good thing - when generally the things Sam's supposedly "seeing good" in are not good. Like at all. So yup, showspeak for Sam is a rube, in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And wouldn`t you know, he turned Mick who got a little redemption arc along the way.

Except that didn't happen until Dean got involved - so I'm thinking it was as much Dean who made Mick see the light... especially since Sam was supposedly more willing to just go along with the BMoL all "yay, kill 'em all."

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Once the BMOL will show their true faces, even ultra-good Sam will sigh heavily and accept it. Until then, it`s not gonna be played as a negative against him.

Why not? It generally has been before  - example Ruby. And Amara.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Same as searching out Lucifer last year. It wasn`t ever adressed in terms of "why the hell did you think God singled you out as the saviour, dude?" Nope, Sam was kept as the super-good lamb who just wanted to sacrifice himself for mankind. And then they hastily transferred the screw-up part to Cas.

If that wasn`t teflon, I don`t know what was.

I'm not sure how Sam was seeing himself as the savior. He admitted the Darkness was his fault in his confession and then asked for God's help in fixing it. And then thought God answered his prayer... again shown as naive and gullible, but I don't see that as Sam thinking he's the savior. Hopeful that maybe God was finally going to help even after God had been shown not to give much of a damn in the past, perhaps, but I'm not seeing that translating into Sam thinking he'd be the savior here myself. Sam was perfectly fine with letting Dean be the one to save them from Amara and even cheerleaded Dean in that regard.

As for transferring the screw up to Castiel... interestingly it was noted in show by Dean how Castiel was right to do what he did and try to get Lucifer's help... so basically in show Cas' decision to trust Lucifer was apparently the right one and something that had to be tried... to fix the problem caused by Sam. Very unlike Sam trusting Ruby which was repeatedly condemned and declared a betrayal of Dean.

And considering God himself said that everything was Sam's fault, I'm not seeing the Teflon.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s also why I do not remotely believe the pendulum will swing back to Dean`s side.

There was the same concern last season that it would somehow be Sam who would fix everything, but Sam ended up being mainly a cheerleader, and Dean did the fixing. Which I was mostly okay with.

Yes, Sam is at present more in the spotlight with killing things, but he's also being set up as a huge rube for going along with the BMoL, so I'm thinking this overkill is set up to offset something truly awful that's going to happen because of Sam's naivete... sort of a "well at least Sam's good at killing things?"

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Not for being stubborn and set in his ways. They're both that way, but Sam hasn't been called out on it by anyone since John said that they were more similar than Sam thought they were 12 years ago, and that was it. Unless someone can come up with another time within show because I can't.

Dean in a bunch of season 5, but especially in "Point of No Return." Bobby, too. And also Bobby again in "Taxi Driver."

And Dean is stubborn, it's just in show, Dean's stubbornness is generally validated by Dean being shown as right. So apparently in Dean, being stubborn isn't being shown as a flaw.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But Dean has been soundly "schooled" on this grievous flaw of his many and numerous times over the series, although the worst of it was in the first 5 seasons. But they still go back to that well whenever they need a scapegoat. 

When lately has Dean been "schooled" on this grievous flaw? To me Dean's stubbornness has generally been shown to be right and Sam - and Castiel - should just fall in line and listen to Dean. Or at least that's what the story seems to be saying to me, since in the narrative, Dean's stubbornness is usually justified. Almost every time. Benny, Gadreel, Naomi, taking on the mark of Cain, the Lucifer visions, on and on.

In earlier seasons, Sam would sometimes get to be right about things he stubbornly insisted, but lately I don't remember the last time that happened.

So obviously miles vary on this one and we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yes, Sam is at present more in the spotlight with killing things, but he's also being set up as a huge rube for going along with the BMoL, so I'm thinking this overkill is set up to offset something truly awful that's going to happen because of Sam's naivete... sort of a "well at least Sam's good at killing things?"

Like I said, since Dean is in it with the BMOL, he will at least get equal if not all of the blame once things turn pear-shaped. And Dean certainly hasn`t gotten any good-at-anything moments recently. 

Which might be the only thing Dean will ever get in any of the remaining episodes of the show: blame. Because with the way the character is currently being utterly destroyed, what`s left will mostly likely only be used to blame or as a clown. That`s why I never really see the pendulum swinging back. I think Dabb honest to God wants to crush the character under his boot and keep him there and have that be the legacy of the show. And he instructed most writers to follow which they quite happily do. 

We`ll see what Yockey does in his next episode. If he, too, has been brought to heel and then maybe Glynn after, there is really no hope anymore.

Quote

Except that didn't happen until Dean got involved - so I'm thinking it was as much Dean who made Mick see the light... especially since Sam was supposedly more willing to just go along with the BMoL all "yay, kill 'em all."

I think they tied it most closely with Sam`s speech to him, the one where Dean just shut up and had nothing to say. Right now Sam is for all intents and purposes the only main character in the show which is why everything that happens, from the kills to the redemption of Mick is IMO tied to him and him only. 

For me this currently is what the show looks like if you wrote Dean Winchester out of it.  

Edited April 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Right now Sam is for all intents and purposes the only main character in the show which is why everything that happens, from the kills to the redemption of Mick is IMO tied to him and him only. 

Which according to this logic, will mean Sam will also get the huge majority of the blame.

And there is also currently whatever is happening with Castiel. If this, too, turns out to be bad, then Dean will have been right to have worried about Castiel, and Sam will be guilted for not having looked for Cas earlier. But that may not happen, depending on what's to come, and so it may all be worrying for no reason.

So as with last year, I'm not going to worry until something happens. There could all be a purpose to this that isn't what we think, and it all might make sense in the end.

All I know is that so far it's better than season 8, because to me at least, much of Dean's lack of enthusiasm makes a whole lot of sense in that he doesn't want to be working with the BMoL and he's worried about Castiel and would rather be looking for him... both things which I think Dean is going to end up correct about. So at least there's an explanation for Dean's weird behavior... unlike Sam in season 8. All my opinion only on that though, I understand.