“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I mean, I don't think they ate like kings as kids. But I don't think that they were literally starving, either.

No one has said they were literally starving. Maybe that's where the disconnect is here. Food insecurity =/= starvation.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No one has said they were literally starving. Maybe that's where the disconnect is here. Food insecurity =/= starvation.

Not eating for DAYS, though? That's really bad.

Edited March 16, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

Not eating for DAYS? That's really bad.

Days can be 2 days or 4 days. It it IS bad. It's terrible. Here is the definition of food insecurity from the USDA

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/measurement/#insecurity

Quote

...and Food Insecurity?

Food insecurity is the limited or uncertain availability of nutritionally adequate and safe foods or limited or uncertain ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways.

(Definitions are from the Life Sciences Research Office, S.A. Andersen, ed., "Core Indicators of Nutritional State for Difficult to Sample Populations," The Journal of Nutrition 120:1557S-1600S, 1990.)

Low food security—Households reduced the quality, variety, and desirability of their diets, but the quantity of food intake and normal eating patterns were not substantially disrupted.

Very low food security—At times during the year, eating patterns of one or more household members were disrupted and food intake reduced because the household lacked money and other resources for food.

 

NOW Dean and Sam have access to food more readily than as children but IMO Dean's tendency to eat all he can ,when he can, is a result of NOT being able to do that as a child. Add to that he lives a life where in he could literally die at any moment, he takes what he can when he can.Tomorrow may never come. An hour after he eats that burger may never come. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Sam, OTOH, can take or leave food.  He's much more picky.  To me, it supports the idea that while Dean knew hunger as a child, Sam was generally okay.  Not that Sam was fed correctly, just that he had sufficient volume. I also have the theory that Sam now eats salad because he was raised on the cheap junk food Dean gave him growing up.

(Sorry that this is going to be long - I have a bunch to say apparently - skip to the bottom for an alternate theory.)

I guess I can see this, SueB, but I still like my theory about their personalities as an explanation for how they relate to food.

As I also said, I just tend to think, or at least hope anyway, that Sam - who asked questions about everything (he was as annoying as I was as a child in that respect) - wouldn't just eat away and not think it was weird that Dean also wasn't eating or even ask Dean about it. I would think Sam would notice and be concerned... now yes he wanted the cereal, but what kid wouldn't at that age... and it was what he was used to eating, considering the Funyuns - which not healthy or cheap for that matter (I know someone had the theory that Dean stole the funyuns).

I also don't know, but I would think that John would be too proud to let his kids go without enough money for food. He just doesn't seem like that kind of person to me - like he would be pissed off if anyone would think that - which I wonder if that wasn't one of his reasons for leaving Dean at Sonny's, because to me that would seem entirely possible... i.e. that maybe John was angry that Dean made it appear that John hadn't been taking care of them.

I also think if the wanted to show that they (or even just Dean) were food lacking, I think the narrative would've shown Dean stealing food - even if it was chocolate, stocking goodies, etc. - when he stole Sam presents on that Christmas. But food wasn't one of the things that Dean grabbed, just presents. If food was lacking, I would think Dean would go ahead and grab some of that as well.

And my final point - I don't see why it would be different in terms of resources or lack thereof when Sam and Dean were left alone versus when Sam was left alone by himself, since we've seen at least two instances when Sam was left on his own, and he seemed fairly comfortable with it both times, so it likely happened more. Now it's possible that the time(s) that Sully was with him, Sully gave him food, but we don't know how often Sam was left alone or what resources he was given either. I don't get why it's generally assumed that Sam was somehow preferred, so of course John would make sure he got more/enough food, but Dean ehn, he can go hungry. It seems to me that if it was standard operating procedure for John then - which I personally don't think it was - then I don't see why it would change when Sam was left alone by himself. Maybe Sam just didn't really care as much about food per se, because he had other goals in mind.

Oops, I guess one more point: Sam being left in places like Pluckey's... they ain't cheap. Unless Dean's lack of money for food only happened when they were very young, I can't see Dean leaving Sam someplace like that which would cost money - more like a library or something - if he didn't have enough money for food.

I guess I'm still not entirely convinced.

But... and now I'm going to potentially contradict myself, but maybe not... there is another way that Dean could have food issues that could be independent from how much food he might have gotten, and okay maybe TMI time here... When I was a kid, I was often hungry. But it had nothing to do with me not being fed enough. I had three meals a day. The lunch ladies would give me extra food at lunch. I probably ate enough food for two kids, but I couldn't gain weight. I was really small and scrawny compared to the other kids. My metabolism was just weird. And in school we weren't allowed to eat except at lunch, so on many days, at about 10 in the morning, I'd already be stomach-growling hungry. (It sucked. Concentrating on school really is harder when you're hungry.) For a long time, eating was more annoying than enjoyable, because I often couldn't seem to get enough, and I would rather be out playing or doing something else than having to go find something to eat. (I also lived someplace cold and heat was expensive - so I was often cold a lot, too.) Anyway, my point being that maybe Dean was the kind of kid who needed more food, and even when he got food, he was still hungry, because it wasn't enough for his metabolism. And John might not have realized... my mom sure didn't get why I was still hungry and did sort of get annoyed after a while that I would be asking for food before dinner all the time - so sometimes she'd just flat out say "no", and sometimes I had to promise her that I would definitely eat all my dinner, too (and I did eat everything - no pickiness from me. I was too hungry for that, so I didn't care what it tasted like.) Eventually my mom did get a little worried - as a teen I still wasn't gaining much weight (I was literally a size 1, if that), even when I finally grew taller. She started feeding me milkshakes for snacks after school (still didn't work - heh). I had to wait until I was around 19 - then my metabolism finally decided to be more normal and I gained a few pounds (not much, but at least better, and I wasn't as hungry all the time.)

And I know how weird all of that sounds, especially considering how there are overweight kids nowadays. But yeah, I had a weird relationship with food for a while because of that.

So, I guess I'm saying Dean could have food issues different from Sam, even with "enough" food, because maybe he was just one of those kids who's metabolism made him hungry sometimes.

Edited March 16, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I actually don't think that their childhoods were meant to seem all that shitty. I don't think the show was trying to make John a monstrous father or their childhoods a depressing saga of deprivation or anything like that at all -- I think that their childhoods were just meant to look "gritty," not bad.

when they were growing up some foods were dirt cheap.  So yes there could be throw this out it is easy to replace but it doesn't mean it was what either of them really wanted.  How much did Sam eat as a child. 

Personally I see it more as at times money ran out.  Other times it was fine.  I don't think we're supposed to think the boys starved.  We don't really have the information to know for sure.  Just that there are some signs that point to Dean making sure Sammy ate.  At some point he got his brother to eat hamburgers if he cooked them right.  We also know that at times he would leave Sam in a safe place, at least in Dean's head while he did what he wanted to do.

I had plenty of food growing up.  I was expected to eat second helpings.  However I still have issues with food.  Some would never see it.  So since I have complex reactions, I can see Dean having it too.  It isn't one that we can answer for sure, it isn't an issue the writers care to answer.  So there is plenty of wiggle room for your own interpretation. 

I don't think they intended to make John such a bad Dad.  Again, I don't think they always think through how it will land since they usually write for this moment to tell this story. 

We know a lot of Dean's love of food is for comic relief.  But even though you can see Dean stealing not because he needed the food, it isn't clear why he did.  Plus we know Dean will cover it up and lie. 

One thing that is funny for me, is that there is a bunch of fanfiction devoted to this topic.  Some have the boys starving to death.  Others somewhere in the middle.  We know that John did have the boys watched sometimes.  We know that Dean was instructed to call for help and later left with Bobby.  But boys being boys, I can see Dean using the funds on something he wanted in the moment and then having to figure out an solution to rebuild his missing funds.  Sweet talking the girls? 

We know it is Sam that has the issue with theft at the beginning of the show.  Dean feels it's justified so he can do what he can to save people.  I'm stopping now as I think I'm being to ramble and not make a lick of sense.  :)

[mertensia]

Oh, I think Sam didn't notice any food shortages that led to Dean's skimping on meals for Dean because he's a younger brother. Siblings can be notoriously blind/oblivious to their siblings' wants/needs/issues. I am the younger sister and there's stuff-none of it bad-I never learned about or noticed because it was about my sister or parents. Sometimes I have learned stuff years later that my dad thought I knew (I learned in about 2005 that someone I thought was a blood relative was actually related to my aunt by marriage) but I either never had or was too young to process.  Or simply forgot because, hello, I was five! I don't remember learning about family friend's divorce!

[SueB]

@AwesomO4000 While I think Sam was exceptionally observant, I think part of that was learned behavior because he caught John and Dean in lies.  Like "the story became the story" bit where Sam didn't know Dean was in a boys home.  So, I think, up until at least 8 or 9, Dean could do a decent job of snowing Sam.  After the Christmas-of-sadness episode, I think Sam saw the whole world differently and probably started questioning everything.  Also, the "Just My Imagination" episode seemed to imply he saw John/Dean as a "unit" and he was the outsider when it came to rules and logistics (where they were living, what they were doing, food on the table, etc...).  We know Dean convinced the old man to bring Sam into the hunt in that episode, but what does Sam remember -- that Dean lobbied to get him there or that he was left alone?  I would think the "left alone" was a stronger memory.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by SueB

[Pondlass1]

Well, despite the poor nutrition and transient stress-filled childhood - the brothers grew tall and handsome with lovely white teeth and an excellent immune system and ability to heal without scarring.

I have to admit that the spin off I'd REALLY love to see would be the Winchester childhood.  It can never happen, of course.  They'd never find the child actors to pull it off.  We all know Sam and Dean's foibles too well. 

And I agree Dylan did an amazing job of portraying Dean.  I so appreciate that he spent many hours studying his character.  I wish these writers would be as dedicated. 

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

They really didn't have any hobbies.  They had school and 'Hunter 101'. Yes, Sam did theater in at least one school, but it doesn't seem like they were ever on sports teams (except for Dean when he was at that home).  

Sam played soccer and even has a division championship trophy.  He was in the play Our Town, but he also ran lights or something for Oklahoma.   He was a mahtlete. I'm not sure how he accomplished all this since in After School Special, he said they were in their 3rd school and it was only November, but maybe that was an odd year.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam played soccer and even has a division championship trophy.  He was in the play Our Town, but he also ran lights or something for Oklahoma.   He was a mahtlete. I'm not sure how he accomplished all this since in After School Special, he said they were in their 3rd school and it was only November, but maybe that was an odd year.

I think Sam was kept out of "Hunting" beyond general physical fitness until about age 10-11.  I think there was plenty of time, in parallel with high school to add the hunting skills.  

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Sam was kept out of "Hunting" beyond general physical fitness until about age 10-11.  I think there was plenty of time, in parallel with high school to add the hunting skills.  

I'm not even thinking about hunting-training.  He would have to be at the same school for a while to be in a play and to play in a division championship game.  They're not going to let some kid stroll in from another school and play in the play offs when he didn't help them get there.  And, they're not going to cast a kid two days before opening night.

[companionenvy]

Frankly, I think part of the inconsistency here is that we're thinking more deeply about this than most of the writers do. The show bible on Sam and Dean's childhood doesn't seem to get more specific than "they moved around a lot, John was gone sometimes, the boys were trained to be hunters, Dean was left in charge of Sam sometimes." If we start trying to really make sense of all of the details, it simply doesn't work.

Logically, it just doesn't make sense that the boys were moving and formally enrolling in new schools every few weeks, to the extent that they'd be on their third school of the year by November (and, since they didn't stay in the school in After School Special for long, their fourth by December). If John cared that little about their education, he certainly wasn't going to care enough to formally enroll them in a school each time they landed in a new town; it isn't like you just show up in school one day and say "Hey, I'm staying at the motel down the street, can I go to classes?" Plus, it isn't credible that someone who was in a different school each month could get into Stanford; frankly, even if they were moving a few times a year, that strains credibility, but it is in the realm of the possible. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by companionenvy

[SueB]

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Frankly, I think part of the inconsistency here is that we're thinking more deeply about this than most of the writers do. The show bible on Sam and Dean's childhood doesn't seem to get more specific than "they moved around a lot, John was gone sometimes, the boys were trained to be hunters, Dean was left in charge of Sam sometimes." If we start trying to really make sense of all of the details, it simply doesn't work.

Logically, it just doesn't make sense that the boys were moving and formally enrolling in new schools every few weeks, to the extent that they'd be on their third school of the year by November (and, since they didn't stay in the school in After School Special for long, their fourth by December). If John cared that little about their education, he certainly wasn't going to care enough to formally enroll them in a school each time they landed in a new town; it isn't like you just show up in school one day and say "Hey, I'm staying at the motel down the street, can I go to classes?" Plus, it isn't credible that someone who was in a different school each month could get into Stanford; frankly, even if they were moving a few times a year, that strains credibility, but it is in the realm of the possible. 

Fair points all.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not even thinking about hunting-training.  He would have to be at the same school for a while to be in a play and to play in a division championship game.  They're not going to let some kid stroll in from another school and play in the play offs when he didn't help them get there.  And, they're not going to cast a kid two days before opening night.

Tim Tebow  was home schooled and allowed to play QB for the local high school . They did a segment on ESPN covering how he was allowed to do it.

Now back when the boys were of school age I think they could have dropped in and out of school pretty easily especially if they were attending schools in the more rural communities where the rules are not quite as stringent as in city schools.  I went to a suburban high school but it also had many kids who were  bussed in or driven by their parents from the farming communities in the district.  Many of those kids missed class a lot because they had to help with the family farm in the harvest seasons but they were allowed to make up the work.

I sort of see it that way for Sam and Dean until Dean decided to drop out.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Tim Tebow  was home schooled and allowed to play QB for the local high school . They did a segment on ESPN covering how he was allowed to do it.

But, I imagine he was playing at the same school.  Not moving around from town to town.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I imagine he was playing at the same school.  Not moving around from town to town.

Eh, unless the school is some big time football school, I don't think they care who plays as long there is parental permission given and they meet physical requirements I'll even make the argument that in rural communities if a big strapping guy like Sam or Dean showed up and wanted to play after being enrolled for two weeks, they would happily let them play. Slim pickings and all that.

Unless the school is a big time football school  kids are allowed to play pretty easily. I'm serious.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure that Dean's current eating habits are tied to anything more than the fact that some people live to eat and others eat to live.  There are plenty of people who literally need to be reminded to eat, because it's just not something they enjoy in the same way that people who love food enjoy eating.  I don't know that we've really been shown anything to indicate that the boys went hungry in any significant way.  They appear to have had times when they lived on macaroni and cereal, so obviously their diet wasn't great, but I don't think we're supposed to see them as truly neglected in that way.  There may have been occasions where John got stuck on a hunt and their money ran low, but that probably wasn't a regular occurrence.  

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, unless the school is some big time football school, I don't think they care who plays as long there is parental permission given and they meet physical requirements I'll even make the argument that in rural communities if a big strapping guy like Sam or Dean showed up and wanted to play after being enrolled for two weeks, they would happily let them play. Slim pickings and all that.

Unless the school is a big time football school  kids are allowed to play pretty easily. I'm serious.

Maybe in a really rural place where they don't have enough kids to fill out the roster.  But, if they show up mid-season, the coach isn't (and shouldn't) going to kick someone off the team to make room for someone who is only going to be around a week or two.  Or even the rest of the season.  You miss tryouts, you're SOL.  There are plenty of kids at tryouts who don't make the team.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Maybe in a really rural place where they don't have enough kids to fill out the roster.  But, if they show up mid-season, the coach isn't (and shouldn't) going to kick someone off the team to make room for someone who is only going to be around a week or two.  Or even the rest of the season.  You miss tryouts, you're SOL.  There are plenty of kids at tryouts who don't make the team.

That's exactly why I said IN RURAL communities and thus far, from all we know the boys spent most of their lives in rural and at most suburban communities with an occasional foray into the big city.  I mean we aren't talking about big high schools with 10000 students.

It really depends on how badly a coach needs a player and whether they thought that X player coud help them win a championship. I know it doesn't seem fair. But high school sports ain't always fair. For a sport like wrestling, which typically doesn't have kids lining up to participate like baseball, basketball or football, I can see a coach making a place for Dean, especially in a rural community which is where the boys home was. Sam running tech in a small high school in a smaller community? I absolutely believe it.  Sam winning a soccer trophy in a small school. YUP.  This isn't like professional or college sports. It's interscholastic high school sports.  Students can talk to the coach and ask to play. Coaches can bend rules and they do (I played high school sports and I've seen it first hand). Maybe Sam won for an intramural soccer team. I will say that of all the unrealistic things in the boys life, their participation in school sports or school activities is the least bothersome to me.

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That's exactly why I said IN RURAL communities and thus far, from all we know the boys spent most of their lives in rural and at most suburban communities with an occasional foray into the big city

I teach Theatre, and I often deal with students being in my first production and then moving away.  Drama has a need for guys.  They are hard to find, so if someone from the school said "Hey, he would be good, then yes he could get drafted for a production.  I would think that John would try to keep them in the same school for several months but I have students that have switched schools at least twice before the 1st semester ends.  So my guess would be reasonable for them to move 4 to 2 a year unless something caused it to be more often.

My guess is that Sam saw Dean and John as a united front.  He felt like the outsider.  He wanted something that he knew wasn't going to be accepted by the rest of his family.  It isn't unusual to different memories of events even if you shared the same moment.  We focus on different things.  We know Dean was caught in the middle between Sam and John.  We know that Dean was a normal older brother too but still he looked out for his brother and sometimes failed.

The biggest problem is that we as fans won't get the information we need to know because the writers need the gaps to continue their story.  But even if you had all the information, how everyone in the family thinks about something isn't going to be the same.

Sam didn't get his height right away so when did he get tall?  He's teased for being chubby but was he really or was a really a very skinny kid?  He might have been a little overweight in elementary because I've seen that with boys.  But it would be fun to see what happened when they were growing up.  It is a spin off that cartoons could pull off, lol  You would just have to find the right voices.  :)

[rue721]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Unless the school is a big time football school  kids are allowed to play pretty easily. I'm serious.

I dunno, I played for some PRETTY TERRIBLE high school sports teams, and there really wasn't a whole lot of coming and going on the team once tryouts were over. There was a LOT of team-building stuff, and if people were just joining up and/or quitting all the time, it wouldn't have been the same.

Pee Wee leagues and intramural leagues are even more difficult to join without going through the proper channels IME because those cost money. You not only need to show up at tryouts and stuff, but you've got to *pay* on time. Parents are also forced to participate quite a bit, like bring snacks or give rides or whatever. That stuff (the money, parents needing to be involved, the structure, etc) stopped me from being able to play intramural sports back in the day, and I grew up basically in one town my whole life. I can't really see John going through all that rigmarole even if they happened to be in the right place at the right time for Sam to sign up for soccer or whatever. (Different story if you've already been playing for a coach in some other capacity and they are trying to field an intramural team, though -- then you might get tapped, and suddenly the way will be paved for you to participate lol. But Sam wouldn't have been able to be involved in something like that, because you've got to be at a school a whole season at least in order for that to be a possibility).

That said, I think it's totally plausible that Dean would be allowed to wrestle while he was at that boys' home. Sonny would probably be able to pull enough strings that his kids would be allowed to join up during the season or during the term. Keeping "at risk" youth out of wholesome after-school activities is not really what a school wants to do, I don't think.

The boys' schooling is interesting to me because it seems like it would have been so much easier just to sign them up for correspondence school until they were old enough to quit entirely. I figure John must have seen some benefit in them going to school (breakfast/lunch, supervision, and chance for friends, if nothing else!), because otherwise he could have just yanked them out of it.

And before people jump on me about how homeschooling wasn't a thing back in the day, my cousin was put in that same exact scenario where he was "enrolled" in correspondence school until he was legally allowed to drop out, and that was during the 1990s. He was in that situation because it was easier on his mom IMO -- and she DIDN'T see the benefit in even letting him go to school, let alone making him. So I figure that John must have seen some kind of benefit or else he would have taken the same easy route as my aunt did, too.

Edited March 16, 2017 by rue721

[bearcatfan]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, unless the school is some big time football school, I don't think they care who plays as long there is parental permission given and they meet physical requirements I'll even make the argument that in rural communities if a big strapping guy like Sam or Dean showed up and wanted to play after being enrolled for two weeks, they would happily let them play. Slim pickings and all that.

Unless the school is a big time football school  kids are allowed to play pretty easily. I'm serious.

 

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe in a really rural place where they don't have enough kids to fill out the roster.  But, if they show up mid-season, the coach isn't (and shouldn't) going to kick someone off the team to make room for someone who is only going to be around a week or two.  Or even the rest of the season.  You miss tryouts, you're SOL.  There are plenty of kids at tryouts who don't make the team.

I live in a fairly large city and the football league for the Catholic schools is extremely successful. So successful that this year the league, with 4 teams, had 2 state champions in football. One was division 1 and the other was in division 2. How is this relevant? Because both schools allow anyone who participates in practices, shows up for what they are supposed to and has at least a C average to be on the team. You may not play much, but you will have a uniform, dress for games and stand on the sidelines. If the team is winning by enough that they go through the 1st and 2nd string, you will then get to play. Not only that, but the stars will cheer for you when you make a play. Seriously. The one team had over 100 boys on the varsity team. They would have 2 players with the same number.

Now, if the roster is limited by the state association, then there are tryouts and cuts. However, it is also possible that if there is an injury that is season ending, someone else will be added.

Last note, the 2 teams that won state championships that were from the same league also are on the same street a little over 5 miles apart.

Edited March 16, 2017 by bearcatfan
redundancy

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

That said, I think it's totally plausible that Dean would be allowed to wrestle while he was at that boys' home. Sonny would probably be able to pull enough strings that his kids would be allowed to join up during the season or during the term. Keeping "at risk" youth out of wholesome after-school activities is not really what a school wants to do, I don't think.

The town didn't look all that big to me. As was pointed out up thread, small town/rural schools generally don't have tryouts, they barely have enough kids to make a team sometimes. Pretty much anyone who shows up with a parental/guardian permission form, gets to play. (Although, now most schools have a pay-to-play policy, so anyone who shows up with their parental/guardian permission and pays the fee, gets to play). So, it totally makes sense to me Dean could make the team mid-season. That kind of stuff happened all the time in my high school and happens in the community I currently live in. 

Same with Sam's soccer trophy. I always figure, since Sam was like 12 when he won the trophy--that's what 6th/7th grade--it was a small/rural school where everyone got to play and the trophy was more of a participation prize than anything.

That's how they do youth baseball around here. It's pretty laid back. Anyone who wants to play signs up. They randomly split the kids into three teams who play each other all summer--every kid gets playtime no matter their skill set, it's all about learning and enjoying the game--and then have a playoff to determine the championship at the end of the summer. If some kid showed up mid-season, they'd be allowed to play and they'd get a "trophy" if their team won the championship. 

I also figure Sam may have only played soccer the one time and that's why it might be such a fond memory of his. I never got the feeling he played in high school, or that soccer was something he was particularly interested in. I just figured they showed up in some town and a kid or friend suggested he join the team, his team won, they left that town and Sam never got the same chance to play again. 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

if a big strapping guy like Sam or Dean showed up

::snort:: Except, I believe, Sam was kinda a scrawny as a kid. ;)

[bearcatfan]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's how they do youth baseball around here. It's pretty laid back. Anyone who wants to play signs up. They randomly split the kids into three teams who play each other all summer--every kid gets playtime no matter their skill set, it's all about learning and enjoying the game--and then have a playoff to determine the championship at the end of the summer. If some kid showed up mid-season, they'd be allowed to play and they'd get a "trophy" if their team won the championship. 

That's true in cities as well if it's a neighborhood team and not a school or select team. My younger son played for the neighborhood team through 4th grade and then played select. There were tryouts for select but not the neighborhood teams. I remember how hampered we were in tournaments because you had to play every player for at least one inning in the field and we would have 17 and the other team would tell their "bad players" to not show up and only have 10.

Now that I think about it, Sam's soccer trophy could be from a neighborhood team.

[rue721]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's pretty laid back. Anyone who wants to play signs up. They randomly split the kids into three teams who play each other all summer--every kid gets playtime no matter their skill set, it's all about learning and enjoying the game--and then have a playoff to determine the championship at the end of the summer.

All that was true in my city back in the 90s, too. But a kid is still going to need support in order to pay the league fee, get their paperwork in, buy the uniform and necessary equipment (mostly, shoes), make it to practices/games, participate in the team activities like snack/meal sign-up...there are always requirements for being part of a league, even if the requirements have nothing to do with how good a player you are. You always have to pay a fee, or get to X% of practices or -- SOMETHING. A teenage kid can make that stuff happen on his own, but a younger kid, an elementary schooler, is really unlikely to have the organizational skills (or frankly, the money) to manage without some kind of help. Not necessarily help from a parent, but from a mentor of some kind.

That's where I wonder about Sam and Dean's relationship, too. Like say Sam is 9 y/o and wants to play Little League -- would he be asking Dean to help him figure out what he needs to bring to tryouts so he can actually sign up? Is Dean going to help him buy cleats or help him figure out how to get to practices or games? Etc. I really didn't get the sense that any of that was happening, because it seemed like Dean just considered Sam's studies and hobbies and stuff "Sam's thing" and didn't think it had anything to do with him. But at the same time, there were a lot of times in the early years of the show when Dean would seem to be giving thought to how to make it possible for Sam to live the "normal"/"safe" life that he had apparently been working towards since he was pretty young (by studying, etc). What especially springs to mind is that heart-to-heart they had in (I think) Wishful Thinking, when Sam told Dean that he didn't want that kind of life anymore anyway. So I wonder about Dean's investment in Sam doing normal kid stuff and how much he might have actually supported him in doing that stuff. Not really a judgement on him either way, I'm just always confused by it. Sam would probably have needed SOME amount of support in order to just logistically do what he was doing -- to get good grades, to do extracurriculars, etc. Who was giving that support? John? Dean? Bobby?! None of the above?

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

All that was true in my city back in the 90s, too. But a kid is still going to need support in order to pay the league fee, get their paperwork in, buy the uniform and necessary equipment (mostly, shoes), make it to practices/games, participate in the team activities like snack/meal sign-up...there are always requirements for being part of a league, even if the requirements have nothing to do with how good a player you are. You always have to pay a fee, or get to X% of practices or -- SOMETHING. A teenage kid can make that stuff happen on his own, but a younger kid, an elementary schooler, is really unlikely to have the organizational skills (or frankly, the money) to manage without some kind of help. Not necessarily help from a parent, but from a mentor of some kind.

Actually, this is a community program sponsored by local businesses with the coaches--usually parents--volunteering their time. There's very little cost--like $10 per kid--and the only equipment you need is the clothes you wear. It's seriously laid back. It's more akin to a bunch of neighborhood kids getting together to play in the vacant lot down the street. It's a bit more organized than that, but not by much. The reason why I used this as an example is, there's routinely kids who participate that don't actually live here, but come up to the family cabin for a couple weeks and want something to do with other kids for a couple hours a week. Ironically, they also have a youth soccer program, but it's even less organized than youth baseball. 

Basically, I don't think Sam was playing in a league at all. I think it was something less formal and more of a community program designed to give kids some activity in the afternoons after school. And, he was 12, so I think he could get himself to practices and figure out his own snacks. It's not like he didn't do that on a daily basis already. Like I said, I don't think Sam probably played soccer except the one time and I'd bet it was because he some kid on the team befriended him and got him to join for the short time they were in that town. 

With Dean, I think he was wrestling for the local school team, though. Most schools now have pay-to-play policies, but until recently most rural schools didn't have those requirements. I played sports all through school and never paid a fee. Basic equipment and uniforms were provided by the school and paid for mostly through out booster club. We literally showed up with signed permission slips and played. It's so much more complicated these days, but then again, almost everything is much more complicated.

I just assumed the towns Sam and Dean were left in were very rural areas where the community helps look after kids whose parents aren't as present, like Sam and Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

17 hours ago, mertensia said:

Oh, I think Sam didn't notice any food shortages that led to Dean's skimping on meals for Dean because he's a younger brother. Siblings can be notoriously blind/oblivious to their siblings' wants/needs/issues. I am the younger sister and there's stuff-none of it bad-I never learned about or noticed because it was about my sister or parents. Sometimes I have learned stuff years later that my dad thought I knew (I learned in about 2005 that someone I thought was a blood relative was actually related to my aunt by marriage) but I either never had or was too young to process.  Or simply forgot because, hello, I was five! I don't remember learning about family friend's divorce!

I actually think there's a lot of factors here. I'm also a "little" sister and I didn't pay attention to who was married to who or necessarily what everyone was doing at any given time and still don't to this day. But, I would've pinged on an older sibling being stressed about something like food running out. I recall even being very sensitive to my mothers various moods. The difference might be that I had an abusive father and I learned very early to pay attention to these things so I could judge what kind of day it would be. It's not uncommon for kids who grow up in unstable environments to develop such a skill.

So, I'm not sure I buy that Sam would've been blissfully ignorant of a food shortage simply because he's younger. Personally, I never got the sense the boys ever went hungry. I think John always left them with food and money and someone to call if they needed anything else. I think he made sure their physical needs were met, and was probably very anal about that, it's the emotional needs he didn't seem to pay much mind to, IMO.

I always figured Dean played poker with the money because he was a cocky teenager who didn't think he could lose--as many teenagers think. I also figure he never did it again. If he tried to hustle pool or gamble on a poker game, I imagine he always used his own money.

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

Quote

 They definitely created this relationship out of thin air.  But once it was a thing, I liked it.

Brought over from the Bitterness Thread...

I can agree with this about Lisa and Ben, but DomesticatedDean, who was "rusty" from his one year off, seemed more like something Gamble wanted in order to contrast it with her SoullessSam who was apparently supposed to be "the New Dean" according to JP that summer at Comic Con. I remember seeing red when that stuff came out. It never worked out that way, though and even though she tried her hardest to make it so, even having Dean, himself, attempt to explain it in You Can't Handle the Truth when the Goddess asked him about it. Blech. And this after the intense disappointment of those last episodes of S5 was like rubbing salt in the wound.

But ITA that Jensen sold  the relationship with Dean and Lisa and Ben like nobody's business. I loved when he thought they were in danger in Exile on Main Street and when they came through the door, he held onto them like he never wanted to let go. I think he went to them strictly because of the promise, but he came to love them as his own little family in the course of that year, IMO, and I was heartbroken for him in that same YCHTT episode when she dumped him over the phone. When he went into the house right afterwards and confronted Soulless and Soulless lied to cover his tracks from the vamp business in the previous episode, Dean looked bone weary and So. Done. with everything there.

It was in this season that I truly realized that I'd probably never be able to quit the Ackting, even if I wanted to quit this show. Curse him. ;-)

[rue721]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, this is a community program sponsored by local businesses with the coaches--usually parents--volunteering their time. There's very little cost--like $10 per kid--and the only equipment you need is the clothes you wear. It's seriously laid back. It's more akin to a bunch of neighborhood kids getting together to play in the vacant lot down the street.

Fair enough. I had no idea that kind of thing existed, but it makes sense it would. When I was a kid, we usually played our pickup games in a parking lot, which in retrospect is an absolutely terrible place for kids to be running around like lunatics and trying to tackle each other. I can see someone's parent seeing that and being like, "uh. Let's do this differently." LOL.

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Basically, I don't think Sam was playing in a league at all. I think it was something less formal and more of a community program designed to give kids some activity in the afternoons after school. And, he was 12, so I think he could get himself to practices and figure out his own snacks. It's not like he didn't do that on a daily basis already. Like I said, I don't think Sam probably played soccer except the one time and I'd bet it was because he some kid on the team befriended him and got him to join for the short time they were in that town.

I meant snacks/meals for the team. Don't you have to bring for everybody, not just yourself? We were meant to share our food in high school, anyway -- not sure about younger kids. We did team dinner on game days and sometimes other days, too, so usually 2-3 days a week. We were girls and the teams weren't huge, though, so that just meant bringing in a couple Stoffer's lasagnas or something. The boosters (or rather, the parents who were also on the boosters) mostly took care of it. I wonder what the football team or spring track did, though?! I never even considered that before now. But bringing in food for all those teenage boys would have been a nightmare. And if the football players didn't have team dinner and just played hungry, then suddenly I'm understanding why they always lost ;)

Thinking about it now, maybe team dinners were a weird thing that my teams just happened to do and not something that was universal, though. I think the reasoning for it was basically that, even though in theory kids that age can find their own food, in practice there were always going to be kids without the cash on hand or without the ability (or maybe just the wherewithal) to pack enough food from home to cover their dinner, so best to just feed the team all together. I can see other teams or districts that weren't so inclusive or supportive not worrying about that, though. So dunno how common that was/is.

But anyway yeah, I hear what you're saying. I can see Sam playing soccer or doing whatever other extra-curricular through a community outreach program. We had this thing when I was growing up where you could basically keep going to school during the summer, the bus would pick you up and drop you off and everything, but it was "camp" instead of school -- no classes, just enrichment stuff. One of my friends did the "sports camp" through that one year and ended up getting NOT ONE BUT TWO trophies at the end of it. Boy did I feel like a loser for going to trophy-less "music camp" instead. ;) Of course, that program has now been cut. I bet Saturday school, which was similar, has since been cut, too. Such a shame. Anyway.

So I guess in my mind, what with all those opportunities for school meals, it's CRAZY to think of children going without food for even a couple days. How hard is it for a parent to make sure to have enough ramen or hot dogs or Chef Boyardee on hand so the kids can actually eat during the few meals they'd actually be home for?! I mean I understand that shit comes up, but John apparently had functionally unlimited access to money, which cuts out the main reason why someone might not be able to provide enough food.

Bah I just hate to think of children going hungry. So disturbing.

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Most schools now have pay-to-play policies, but until recently most rural schools didn't have those requirements. I played sports all through school and never paid a fee. Basic equipment and uniforms were provided by the school and paid for mostly through out booster club. We literally showed up with signed permission slips and played. It's so much more complicated these days, but then again, almost everything is much more complicated.

That's how it was when I was growing up, too. When I first heard about pay-to-play later on, it was actually in reference to rural districts, where sports were very popular but the district didn't have a whole lot of money -- but I think that it's very wide-spread nowadays. It makes me angry to think of kids getting closed out of joining a team or playing a sport because they can't pony up. It just seems so harsh and TBH counterproductive. Don't you WANT to get kids involved in stuff like that?

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he made sure their physical needs were met, and was probably very anal about that, it's the emotional needs he didn't seem to pay much mind to, IMO.

I agree...although IMO the show has been a bit contradictory on that account, which is also why I'm very curious about the logistics of the household.

I mean, how anal was he? How'd he organize things? I would have thought he'd have been running a tight ship based on how authoritarian he seems to have been, but then sometimes how they refer to him being at home, it sounds like kind of an unstructured mess and like he just wasn't very domestic in any sense (not even in a "running a tight ship" kind of sense).

One thing about living in motels and not needing to worry about household logistics, though -- free maid service and free toiletries for the most part ;)

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always figured Dean played poker with the money because he was a cocky teenager who didn't think he could lose--as many teenagers think. I also figure he never did it again. If he tried to hustle pool or gamble on a poker game, I imagine he always used his own money.

Maybe he was so cocky that he got hustled ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, rue721 said:

 my cousin was put in that same exact scenario where he was "enrolled" in correspondence school until he was legally allowed to drop out, and that was during the 1990s. He was in that situation because it was easier on his mom IMO 

Dang...I would think that would be harder than shipping the kid off to school... ::shrugs::

15 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I live in a fairly large city and the football league for the Catholic schools is extremely successful.

Catholic schools are also private school though, right?  I mean, you have to pay some serious money to attend one (the people I know who attended Catholic schools did).  In that case, maybe the money made from tuition helps fund the 'everyone plays' policy?  I don't think public schools have that capability.

Question about Sam and playing soccer:  (I never really thought about this until reading this discussion.)  How prevalent are soccer teams in the rural Midwest?  (I'm keeping the question to that area, because I think that was primarily John's region of operation/living.)  I know football (American football) is big in Kansas and Texas especially.  I know that in South Carolina, for example, most rural schools don't have soccer teams.  Especially not Junior Highs/Middle schools - even if the high schools then have them.  So I wonder how much chance Sam, at 12 or so, would have had to play soccer on a school team?  Unless it's like @DittyDotDot speculated it was more of a community/neighborhood thing.  

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Question about Sam and playing soccer:  (I never really thought about this until reading this discussion.)  How prevalent are soccer teams in the rural Midwest?  (I'm keeping the question to that area, because I think that was primarily John's region of operation/living.)  

I think every school that has sports' teams has a soccer team.  It's not because it's a popular spectator sport in any area, but because it's fairly easy.  You already have the field, because you're using the same one for football.  So, all you need are goals and a ball.  it's fairly non-contact so there aren't a lot of injuries.  Even baseball has more injuries due to getting hit in the head with fast paced balls.

 

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Catholic schools are also private school though, right?  I mean, you have to pay some serious money to attend one (the people I know who attended Catholic schools did).  In that case, maybe the money made from tuition helps fund the 'everyone plays' policy?  I don't think public schools have that capability.

Catholic schools are private, but I don't think they are really huge money makers.  They do cost money, but less than other private schools, and the local Catholic churches will help out lower income families with the tuition.  I think the only reason "everyone" playing would cost more money, would be more uniforms, but even in public school you have to buy your own uniform.  Maybe the Catholic schools have their own league which allows them to circumvent how many kids can dress for a game, or whatnot, but I would think that a coach might have trouble getting practice time in for 100 kids to play in this weekend's game.

[Airmid]

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Catholic schools are also private school though, right?  I mean, you have to pay some serious money to attend one (the people I know who attended Catholic schools did).  In that case, maybe the money made from tuition helps fund the 'everyone plays' policy?  I don't think public schools have that capability.

As a veteran of Catholic schooling (as in all of it up to college) I can say that it depends on the size of the school if they even have a sports team to begin with. The middle school I went to didn't, and still doesn't. The high school was large enough to play against smaller schools (public and private) but you start getting into the rating system of whether a school is a 3A, higher or lower. So it changes the competition and generally, back when I was in high school (which would be in the same era as the boys) you could have a smaller sports team. That being said, at least at my school, they had tryouts and unless someone was transferring from another school with an established team they were on, you weren't getting in mid-season for any team unless by some bizarre circumstance they were in real need of bodies.

I didn't grow up in a rural area but at the time this wasn't a huge area and we did have a lot of youth sports leagues with their own competitions and such. Those yes, most could join and play and considerations were given for kids who had a lot of other things going on and couldn't always be there. I've always had the mindset that John wasn't always moving his kids around every few weeks and was able to leave them somewhere for larger chunks of time, especially when they got a bit older. Otherwise I can't image the sheer nightmare for Sam to get all his school records to apply for college. Yes he could have just lied about it but I just don't see it as an overall solution for him.

IMO I always thought it was a bit fanciful of the show at times to imply they moved that much. I mean there are kids for whatever reason who do go to a handful of different schools each year but three by November as in Afterschool Special? No, not really unless that was a special circumstance.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I agree...although IMO the show has been a bit contradictory on that account, which is also why I'm very curious about the logistics of the household.

I mean, how anal was he? How'd he organize things? I would have thought he'd have been running a tight ship based on how authoritarian he seems to have been, but then sometimes how they refer to him being at home, it sounds like kind of an unstructured mess and like he just wasn't very domestic in any sense (not even in a "running a tight ship" kind of sense).

One thing about living in motels and not needing to worry about household logistics, though -- free maid service and free toiletries for the most part ;)

I meant, I think he was anal about making sure they had food, clothing, a roof over their head and a bed to sleep in. I think it was probably very important to John to be able to say he provided for his boys. It's probably what would distinguish him from a deadbeat dad, in his mind, and probably what allowed him to perpetuate their lifestyle. I don't think he got caught up in the details of it all though. His concern wasn't what they were doing with the money, food or clothing he left them with, just that he made sure they had some.

I just don't see John as much of a planner at all. He thought from one hunt to the next and everything was always so temporary with him. I think he probably went with the flow more than "organized" the household. If there was a hunt close to Pastor Jim's or Bobby's, he could leave the boys with them and know they'd provide the basics. If he had to leave them at a motel while he hunted, he'd see if he could get a maid to check in on them from time to time. I'm guessing he would leave them with a list of vague instructions of things he wanted them to do while he was gone--practice their bow hunting and whatnot--but I'd guess that was more him trying to assert some sort of control over them and feel like he was running the ship while he was gone than actually having it mapped out what they were supposed to be doing all the time.

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think every school that has sports' teams has a soccer team.  It's not because it's a popular spectator sport in any area, but because it's fairly easy.  You already have the field, because you're using the same one for football.  So, all you need are goals and a ball.  it's fairly non-contact so there aren't a lot of injuries.  Even baseball has more injuries due to getting hit in the head with fast paced balls.

Actually, I'd bet most rural schools don't have soccer teams. Like I said, there's a community youth soccer program here--the kids show up and play soccer a couple days a week, but there's no actual teams, just kids running around the field kicking the ball--but the school doesn't have a soccer team at all. They don't have enough kids to support a soccer program in conjunction with cross country running, volleyball and football. That's the drawback to small town schools: they're small enough your kid doesn't get lost, but also won't have the numbers to provide many options.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

but even in public school you have to buy your own uniform

No, you don't. Or at least you didn't. Or at least you didn't have to in the schools I went to. YMMV.

FWIW, we got uniforms, practice uniforms, booster "spirit packs" (sweats and stuff), etc, for free. Back in my time, the boosters were also trying to raise money for team shoes as well. Basically, the idea was, if you could make the team, you would be taken care of. (If you didn't make the team, you could be a manager and you'd still get taken care of, you just couldn't play). And the coaches also started intramural teams with the city so that we could play together as a team all year (that was for volleyball). Fall season, winter intramural, spring intramural, summer conditioning. With casual conditioning and pickleball at the Y in between those "seasons." All that and we were actually pretty awful, it's not like we were some hotshot athletes. Hence my making the team ;) I did get my single solitary trophy ever from being a badass in one intramural tournament, though. My clumsy self was so proud of that thing, I think I still have it somewhere.

ETA:  when I say we got that stuff for free, we were just borrowing a lot of it -- had to give it back at the end of the season. The uniforms and practice uniforms, anyway.

Edited March 17, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

John was not a semi-normal man anymore so he couldn't be a semi normal parent, IMO.

Sam and Dean both said John was obsessed with  the YED and given the show's consistent  portrayal of John as that obsessed bastard, then I have no trouble with the idea that John was a negligent caregiver due to his obsession. He taught them how to stay alive in the sense of hunting and staying safe from monsters and he tried to give them the basics but IMO Dean became the caregiver for Sam. IMO, that scene where Dean makes the spaghettios was not the first time nor the last time Dean was burdened  with that caregiver duty. I think he made sure Sam was  fed even if that meant he went without.

i think John would give them money but maybe he didn't give them enough. Maybe he still thought the boys could get a 50 cent cup of coffee. I mean he had plan B and C but he didn't always get them to plan B and C John. spent Sams college fund on ammo. I'm not entirely convinced that John was  a good money manager.

I think John made sure Sam was in school when he could be but I don't think he cared whether Dean was  in school not really. I mean he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to get an education. IMO  John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

And sure Dean was not all that interested in school but I would argue thats because John needed Dean to be with him to hunt. I think John as emotionally dependent on Dean, which is why lMO he didn't push Dean to stay in school. He needed Dean.

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Catholic schools are private, but I don't think they are really huge money makers.  They do cost money, but less than other private schools, and the local Catholic churches will help out lower income families with the tuition. 

Oh I didn't mean to imply that the Catholic schools made money.  I would think they would have to be non-profit in order to keep their tax exempt status as part of the church diocese.  Just that the surplus from the tuition after teacher salaries (etc.) were paid (and if the teachers were nuns, then they were dirt cheap because nuns don't make squat, as far as I know) could help fund the larger teams.  

I think it must depend on where the Churches are located also.  The ones in SC probably wouldn't have that much money to help out the school since their own budgets wouldn't be that high.  (Lower attendance in a big Southern Baptist region.)

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

but even in public school you have to buy your own uniform. 

I know at our local high school, the football players do not buy their own uniforms.  Even in the local 'rec' league, the football player uniforms are paid for by sponsors, while the cheerleaders have to buy their own uniforms.  

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

FWIW, we got uniforms, practice uniforms, booster "spirit packs" (sweats and stuff), etc, for free.

Well, the school I went to, you had to pay for your own uniforms, you may have been able to rent them or maybe resell them, I'm not sure how that worked, you also had to rent or buy your own instrument for band, etc. There wasn't anywhere near enough money in the budget to pay for kids' individual stuff for extracurriculars. After all that, did your school have enough money left over to pay for teachers and books?

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it was probably very important to John to be able to say he provided for his boys. It's probably what would distinguish him from a deadbeat dad, in his mind, and probably what allowed him to perpetuate their lifestyle.

 

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He thought from one hunt to the next and everything was always so temporary with him. I think he probably went with the flow more than "organized" the household.

OK yeah, I can see that.

Well, I can completely understand how Sam became so driven and developed control issues after dealing with that!

Nothing can convince a person that predictability and stability sure are nice better than not having them.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

know at our local high school, the football players do not buy their own uniforms.  Even in the local 'rec' league, the football player uniforms are paid for by sponsors, while the cheerleaders have to buy their own uniforms.  

Not to point out the obvious, but that's not fair.  If a school or rec league is going to pay for uniforms for one sport, they need to do it for all.  In fact, I'm surprised that's not a discrimination thing since most football players are boys and most cheerleaders are girls.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, the school I went to, you had to pay for your own uniforms, you may have been able to rent them or maybe resell them, I'm not sure how that worked, you also had to rent or buy your own instrument for band, etc. There wasn't anywhere near enough money in the budget to pay for kids' individual stuff for extracurriculars. After all that, did your school have enough money left over to pay for teachers and books?

For instruments, there was a sliding scale. Kids with free lunch got free instrument rental through the school, kids with reduced price lunch got reduced price instrument rental (around $36/yr when I was in school in the late 90s/early 00s), and kids with full price lunch had full price rental (around $86/yr at that time). Orchestra/band participation was free (it was just a regular class you could take).

I think that if a certain percentage of your school gets free or reduced lunch the school gets extra funding. So maybe there was a extra money coming from that.

And also, my specific area of the country (DC metro) is very wealthy, so there's money coming from a good tax base. The public school population here tends to skew poorer than the general population, though.

Anyway, the stuff they could provide WAS impressive, too -- I certainly benefited! :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

I'm not sure how John would have seen Sam as the hope to have a normal life though.  When did he find out that Sam had demon blood?  (did he find out?  I can't remember.)  

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not to point out the obvious, but that's not fair.  If a school or rec league is going to pay for uniforms for one sport, they need to do it for all.  In fact, I'm surprised that's not a discrimination thing since most football players are boys and most cheerleaders are girls.

Oh, yeah - absolutely agree with you!  The rec leagues (and perhaps the schools, because I'm not quite sure how it works there) probably get around it because, as I said, it's funded by private sponsors.  If it were public funds there's no way they'd be able to do that.  

That being said, I do not know about other girls' sports in the school, such as basketball.  Maybe cheerleading isn't/wasn't considered a sport?

[rue721]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think John made sure Sam was in school when he could be but I don't think he cared whether Dean was  in school not really. I mean he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to get an education. IMO  John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

What makes you think so? (non-snarky, honest question).

My inference is that John cared at least somewhat about the kids being in school, since he kept enrolling them in school. I don't think that Dean was under pressure to drop out, either, since he didn't leave until age 17 or 18 and then went on to get his GED anyway. That was Dean's own decision (in After School Special IIRC), and it seemed like John wasn't really involved in it.

To be honest, that's more pro-school than I might have expected John to be, but I guess he was still thinking that their lifestyle was temporary and that the boys would need to be prepared to live normal lives once the YED was dead. Which meant having something of an education.

I also do think that John WANTED to be a good father, even if his execution wasn't great. Like @DittyDotDot said, I think he cared about not being a deadbeat and doing what he was "supposed" to -- making sure they had a roof, food and clothes; enrolling them in school; teaching them to take care of themselves (training)...And I think he actually did love them a lot. IMO that's why he was so devastated when he "lost" Sam (aka, Sam left for college). But IMO John was also kind of crazy, so he was locked in his own head and could only see things from his own (skewed) perspective. He wasn't going to be able to see what he was putting them through.

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

When did he find out that Sam had demon blood?  (did he find out?  I can't remember.)  

Mmm. There is much theory and little fact. ;)

As far as I know, it was never stated explicitly in-show that John knew about the demon blood. I believe he did, myself. And, I believe he knew it early on. But, it's all speculation on that front. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think John made sure Sam was in school when he could be but I don't think he cared whether Dean was  in school not really. I mean he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to get an education. IMO  John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

I'd bet it was Sam who made sure Sam was in school. Sam was driven to make school work for him because he saw it as his way out of the life. Dean didn't really see himself ever leaving the life, so school wasn't a priority to him. I personally think John wanted both of them to go to school so he could continue to believe they were normal, regular kids, but I don't think he ever paid attention to either of their schooling. It wasn't like he was helping either of them with their homework or showing up to parent-teacher conferences for either of them.

IMO, John said he wanted Sam to get to go back to school because he thought that's what Sam wanted. And, he said he wanted Dean to have a family because he thought that's what Dean wanted. But, I'd say he didn't really know what either truly wanted, myself.

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What makes you think so? (non-snarky, honest question).

I edited my comment so maybe it was missed in cross posting, but essentially it's the below.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And sure Dean was not all that interested in school but I would argue thats because John needed Dean to be with him to hunt. I think John as emotionally dependent on Dean, which is why lMO he didn't push Dean to stay in school. He needed Dean.

IMO, John depended on Dean to take care of Sam and on some level, to take care of John, too. It sort of doesn't matter why John put that burden on Dean, the point is that it happened.

Dean provided emotional support to John. He did it for both parents but with John IMO it was on a regular basis. Its lovely and sweet and even the most well adjusted non-traumatized child will do that from time to time. If John's words IMTOD are considered true then I think Dean was John's emotional support for most of Dean's life.

Quote

DEAN
What is it?
 

JOHN
You know, when you were a kid, I'd come home from a hunt, and after what I'd seen, I'd be, I'd be wrecked. And you, you'd come up to me and you, you'd put your hand on my shoulder and you'd look me in the eye and you'd... You'd say "It's okay, Dad"
(pauses)
Dean, I'm sorry.
 

DEAN
What?
 

JOHN
You shouldn't have had to say that to me, I should have been saying that to you. You know, I put, I put too much on your shoulders, I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that, and you didn't complain, not once. I just want you to know that I am so proud of you.
 

DEAN
This really you talking?
 

JOHN
Yeah. Yeah, it's really me.
 

DEAN
Why are you saying this stuff?
 

JOHN comes closer, puts a hand on DEAN'S shoulder.
 

JOHN
I want you to watch out for Sammy, okay?
 

DEAN
Yeah, dad, you know I will. You're scaring me.
 

JOHN
Don't be scared, Dean.
 

JOHN leans over and whispers something into DEAN'S ear. DEAN pulls back in shock, processing. JOHN leaves, and DEAN stares after him.

In Something Wicked it was pretty clear, to me, anyway that Dean had been fulfilling the caregiver/nurturer/protector part of the family that John could not/was emotionally unable to do.

Quote

YOUNG DEAN (around 9-10) is staring at a photo of the same handprint. JOHN comes out of the bedroom, loading his sawn off.
 

JOHN
All right. You know the drill, Dean. Anybody calls, you don't pick up. If it's me, I'll ring once, then call back. You got that?
 

YOUNG DEAN
Mm-hmm. Only answer the phone unless it rings once first.
 

JOHN
Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff is important.
 

YOUNG DEAN
I know, it's just...we've gone over it like a million times and you know I'm not stupid.
 

JOHN
I know you're not, but it only takes one mistake, you got that?
 

JOHN continues gathering his things.

JOHN
All right, if I'm not back Sunday night...?

YOUNG DEAN
Call Pastor Jim.

JOHN
Lock the doors, the windows, close the shades. Most important....
 

YOUNG DEAN
Watch out for Sammy.
 

They both look to SAMMY, sprawled on the couch watching cartoons on TV.

YOUNG DEAN
I know.
 

JOHN
All right. If something tries to bust in?
 

YOUNG DEAN
Shoot first, ask questions later.
 

JOHN
(taking his shoulder) That's my man.

He left Dean to feed Sam, and protect him if the sthriga came for Sam. IMO that wasn't a first time thing and we know it wasn't a last time thing for Dean. 

IMO, Dean saw how messed up John was after Mary died and he was doing his best to fulfill a role that was missing in the family. IMO, that's why John didn't really push Dean to stay in school. He wanted Dean to hunt. It seems to me that John never got it until the moment he died, and even then he put another burden on Dean to take care of Sam.   YMMV.

That's how I see Dean and John's relationship. John helped them stay alive from the WAR/Soldier perspective and Dean helped them function as best as they could as a family unit whilst trying to be a hunter.

YMMV.

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

John helped them stay alive from the WAR/Soldier perspective and Dean helped them function as best as they could as a family unit whilst trying to be a hunter.

OK, thanks, I can see what you're saying.

My quibble is that I don't think that John cared about Sam's schoolwork, either -- I think it was Sam who cared about it.

IMO it wasn't just that Sam had his "eyes on the prize," though. I think that he also seems to just generally have a goal-oriented and intense nature, and always seems to have felt the need to prove himself, so my guess is that he'd be like that as a student, too. IMO his drive was coming from his personality at least as much as from his desire to live a normal life. IMO that's why his drive has stayed so consistent as a character trait over the years, even while his goals have changed so much (to the point of his goals almost seeming incidental or nonsensical IMO).

Those character traits are something that I think has been missing from Sam's flashbacks for a while, though. It's something that holds me back from liking that Sully episode despite enjoying the Zanna. I just can't buy Sam as such a milquetoast, passive kid. He seems like the type who would have been kind of batshit and exhausting as a kid and then (hopefully) mellowed and grown into himself a bit as an adult IMO.

Anyway, I do think that stress and responsibility probably put a hamper on Dean, because how could it not, but IMO John was pretty blind to that. Like, I think in John's head, Dean was doing 100% fine. He was a great kid, what's there to worry about, etc.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not sure how John would have seen Sam as the hope to have a normal life though.  When did he find out that Sam had demon blood?  (did he find out?  I can't remember.)

Quote

My quibble is that I don't think that John cared about Sam's schoolwork, either -- I think it was Sam who cared about it.

In Dead Man's Blood, John and Sam had the conversation about why they just can't get along.

Why would John  bother to put $100 a month in a college fund for Sam if he didn't think Sam would eventually get out of hunting and go to college?  Given the whole conversation was about the issues between Sam and John, my takeaway is John made a college fund for Sam and general fund for Dean, so that Sam could go to college and Dean could buy a house.

Quote

SAM
No.
 

JOHN
I put a hundred bucks into a savings account for you. I did the same thing for your brother.

It was a college fund. And every month I'd put in another hundred dollars, until... Anyway my point is, Sam, this is never the life that I wanted for you.
 

SAM
Then why'd you get so mad when I left?
 

JOHN
You gotta understand something. After your mother passed all I saw was evil, everywhere. And all I cared about was keeping you boys alive. I wanted you...prepared. Ready. Except somewhere along the line I ... uh ... I stopped being your father and I ... I became your, your drill sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy, it just... it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me -- We're just different.

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Those character traits are something that I think has been missing from Sam's flashbacks for a while, though. It's something that holds me back from liking that Sully episode despite enjoying the Zanna. I just can't buy Sam as such a milquetoast, passive kid. He seems like the type who would have been kind of batshit and exhausting as a kid and then (hopefully) mellowed and grown into himself a bit as an adult IMO.

Maybe that was the episode in which Sam stopped being milquetoas, although I'm not sure he's not still a little milquetoast about some things in his life.

I never meant to imply that Sam didn't care about his own schoolwork nor was I knocking Sam in the least with my comments. I was speaking from how I saw JOHN'S perspective on Sam's school career. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Imo, based on this:

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

JOHN
I put a hundred bucks into a savings account for you. I did the same thing for your brother.

It was a college fund. And every month I'd put in another hundred dollars, until...

Both of them (Sam's and Dean's) were meant to be college funds.  

It also doesn't say when he started or when he actually stopped, except the "until..."  I always thought that he started either when Mary found out she was pregnant, first with Dean and then with Sam, or when they were actually born.  That doesn't really matter actually, as my point is; it was when Mary was alive and they were a family and John was blissfully ignorant of monsters.  That's when he thought his sons would go to college.  

If he really thought or wanted them, even one of them, to get out of hunting and go to college, he wouldn't have used the college funds for ammo.  He could have easily picked up a stray job here or there along the way for that.

The "until..." was when Mary was killed and he went into survival mode.  He wasn't working regularly and therefore couldn't contribute to a savings account on a regular basis anymore.  

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would John  bother to put $100 a month in a college fund for Sam if he didn't think Sam would eventually get out of hunting and go to college?  Given the whole conversation was about the issues between Sam and John, my takeaway is John made a college fund for Sam and general fund for Dean, so that Sam could go to college and Dean could buy a house.

You missed the line before it though: "I don't think I ever told you this but ... the day you were born, you know what I did?"

He started the college funds when they were born--before Mary died and he went a-huntin'--I don't think he was talking about adding money after, but before their lives changed. IMO, he was just illustrating that he had once had the goal of being able to send both Sam and Dean off to college, but things changed... .

My personal belief is he probably didn't cash those college funds in right away, believing they would get to use those accounts some day. But, the longer they lived the life and the less resources he had, he ended up cashing them in when the chips were down. Probably figured he'd be able to repay those accounts once he'd found and killed the thing that killed Mary. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Given the whole conversation was about the issues between Sam and John, my takeaway is John made a college fund for Sam and general fund for Dean, so that Sam could go to college and Dean could buy a house.

Wait, your takeaway from this exchange or in general? (I don't have some other exchange in mind, but wondering if you do?)

To me, this particular exchange is John saying that he didn't have a problem with Sam going away to college specifically, he'd even started a college fund for him back in the day -- he reacted so badly to Sam leaving for Stanford because he was just so scared/upset about Sam leaving in general.

In any case, I agree with @RulerofallIsurvey -- I don't think that the college fund(s) were getting funded past Mary's death or John finding out about the supernatural. Mostly because I would imagine that the $200/mo was getting put aside when John was still working. Setting money aside like that just seems like such a weird thing to do using stolen CCs, lol. So I don't think they say much about how John saw his kids later on.

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

If he really thought or wanted them, even one of them, to get out of hunting and go to college, he wouldn't have used the college funds for ammo.  He could have easily picked up a stray job here or there along the way for that.

I mean, or he could just have been like, "you better enroll in college." Dean could have picked up some classes if he wanted, too, since he got his GED. Given that John apparently never told either one of them that they should go, though, I doubt that he cared all that much. I think he probably started college funds/savings accounts for his kids in the first place as a new father being all starry-eyed and dreaming big for his kids, not because of his own strong personal feelings about school.