“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Pondlass1]

I remember being dead keen on them acknowledging Dean's 40th birthday.  Now I hope and pray they don't. 

It'll just be open season on how old and decrepit he is. :(

Edited October 31, 2018 by Pondlass1

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I remember being dead keen on them acknowledging Dean's 40th birthday.  Now I hope and pray they don't. 

I used to really want to see an episode for Dean based on It's a Wonderful life, but now I hope and pray they don't.  We'd get the Simpon's version. 

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I remember being dead keen on them acknowledging Dean's 40th birthday.  Now I hope and pray they don't. 

It'll just be open season on how old and decrepit he is. :(

Sometimes I think they forget that "Dean" looks a whole lot like Jensen Ackles.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sometimes I think they forget that "Dean" looks a whole lot like Jensen Ackles.

The problem is that to the 12-16-year-olds they're writing for, Jensen (and Jared) are their fathers' age.  And while Sam has slipped into the "mentor/sage" role (who can still kick ass when necessary) that's acceptable for "older" characters on shows aimed at young demographics, Dean has been written as the creepy uncle who refuses to admit his age and keeps trying to hang with the younger ones.  

Let's face it--our aging demographic isn't what they're aiming at. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As far as I'm concerned everything Sam did in s4 was whitewashed.  He wasn't reckless or arrogant, or ego driven. So even if there wasn't an charcter saying, no this isn't a fault, the narrative took care of that.  Dean was mean and didn't let Sam make his own decisions and treated him like a child.  Even though Dean did actually allow Sam to make his choices and Ruby played Sam like a fiddle, Sam had to get away from Dean.  That, IMO, was the single worst line in the history of the show.  Because it showed me that Sam will never really be held responsible.  There will always be a giant "but" attached.  That's exactly what happened.

Even if Bobby didn't' fully walk everything back, he still said "its the demon talking," implying that that Bobby doesn't really think those things.  That's a perfect example of "but"

  IMO, the show justified everything Sam did with Ruby when they white washed the demon blood drinking.  The fact that demon blood wasn't need to host an angel (which makes no sense) before or since it the textbook definition of whitewashing.   They even gave Ruby a justification when they said she was only getting Sam ready for Lucifer.

I feel like they were refuted when the Kripke said the point was for Dean to learn to love Sam more and learn to trust him and not treated him like a child. 

Sam with s8.  Authorial intent to me made it seem like we were supposed to side with Sam.  They just underestimated Jensen ability to make us feel sympathy for Dean.  Nothing Sam did in Citizen Fang was ever called out or mentioned on screen.  Dean gave Sam a choice between hunting or Amelia, Sam was like dump Benny or I'll dump you.  The narrative supported Sam here, and yet somehow Dean's the controlling one.  If we were meant to see it as flaws it would be mentioned on screen.  It wasn't.  It was ignored, but we actually had Charlie say that Dean ruined Sam's life.  Nothing was mentioned the other way around.

IMO, Dean was made the bad guy in s5.  I know we dont' see eye to eye on this and I'm not interesting in rehashing the debate,  Just saying why I don't see this as the show saying these are actual flaws.   Basically, its only Sam's fault because Dean made him to it in the first place.   It's like I said.  The show seems to view Sam's flaws as others not accepting his actions, not the actions themselves. 

I feel like Sam is rewarded for his mistakes.  Like with the Brits.  He followed them blindly and he got promoted into Dean's leadership role for it.  Sure, Sam has issues, but they arent' treated like flaws.

 

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, but 'we' will know better - that's all Dean fans need. Anyone should know that Dean isn't really any of those things, it doesn't need to be said. And it doesn't matter if Show implies he's all those things, says it, sh0ows it, over and over and over again. That's just how bad guys, 'semi-villains' see him. They just want to get under his skin. Dean's a great guy, a hero. Jeez, don't you remember that scene five seasons ago when Sam said so? And goddamnit, he was sorry Dean was murdered in S9. WTF more do you want?

+1000 to both of these posts.

I'm already dreading tomorrow night's episode and the rest of this whole season, tbh, because of Dabb and co and what they've done with Dean in only the first three episodes of it. 

It's so depressing. :-(

[ILoveReading]

The kindest thing they could do for Dean as a character is just kill him off.  At least let him go out with the little bit of dignity he has left.

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The problem is that to the 12-16-year-olds they're writing for, Jensen (and Jared) are their fathers' age.  And while Sam has slipped into the "mentor/sage" role (who can still kick ass when necessary) that's acceptable for "older" characters on shows aimed at young demographics, Dean has been written as the creepy uncle who refuses to admit his age and keeps trying to hang with the younger ones.  

Let's face it--our aging demographic isn't what they're aiming at. 

More and more, it's things like this that make me believe Regarding Dean was a requiem for my beloved character. He was appreciated by the woman he hit on, his possible loss was shown as having true, emotional impact on Sam, even his interactions with Rowena were meaningful. Right down to the song and montage at the end, it felt like goodbye.

Almost everything that's happened since then makes me believe, for all intents and purposes, it was.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The problem is that to the 12-16-year-olds they're writing for, Jensen (and Jared) are their fathers' age.  And while Sam has slipped into the "mentor/sage" role (who can still kick ass when necessary) that's acceptable for "older" characters on shows aimed at young demographics, Dean has been written as the creepy uncle who refuses to admit his age and keeps trying to hang with the younger ones.  

But 12-13 year olds are really not a big audience for the show, not even with the Netflix reruns. The CW`s audience is a bit younger than the other networks but still much older than they care to admit. Pre-teens have different shows as their primary target.

Not to mention, especially with male characters age doesn`t have to be so much of a factor. I mean, how old do people think Tony Stark is? It`s not much of a factor because the character is still presented as cool and badass.   

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The kindest thing they could do for Dean as a character is just kill him off.  At least let him go out with the little bit of dignity he has left.

I'm not so sure Dabb would give him a heroic or dignified death at this point.

I think he would have him do something bad, feel guilty for it, get drunk and kill someone because he drove  drunk, then have Dean shoot himself in the face for that action.

And then turninto a Very Special Series of Episodes about how, despite everything he'd been through in his life, including a father who raised him to be a hunter, and a mother who made the deal that ruined his life, and being possessed by Lucifer and overcoming all of that, the thing that will upset Sam the most and who he'll blame the most for when he becomes the boy king of hell is Dean Winchester, who wasn't strong enough to not get drunk and not kill another person with his car. And how Sam will have to go out there and  and make the world a better place and preach Against Drunk Driving not because he lost his brother but because Dean was such a bad person to do that to him and everyone else.

That is how much I don't trust Dabb to handle Dean's death with any kind of alacrity, intelligence,  or respect for the character. So at this point I think I would rather Dean left the bunker, takes the Impala and went off to find himself away from his family.

Edited October 31, 2018 by catrox14
mobile posting sucks

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Just wait until the 300th episode if they go with how people of the town see them.  Sam, the brave selfless hero, good-looking hero who helps little old ladies cross the street.  Dean, the boorish, town dunk, sloppy eater, rude guy who hits on college girls.

 

Spoiler

 

I don't understand how it's going to make sense in the first place.   They had a P.O. Box in town.  And did occasional grocery shopping or fast food runs, maybe a bar visit, going to a movie, etc.  IMO, he most notable thing is the beautiful car. They've never saved anyone in that town.  And for all we know the bar that Dean frequented in Inside Man was in another town, and not in Lebanon specifically. No one has any idea where they live because it's a super secret bunker under the ground FFS.

So, why would the town even ask questions? Or notice them beyond two good looking men and a cool car. It's a dumb idea IMO.  YMMV. 

 

[tessathereaper]

On 10/30/2018 at 5:12 AM, mertensia said:

Again, what the author has the character say is not necessarily what the author thinks or believes. Kaia went after Dean because she had negative memories from dead Kaia, from fighting Michael and because he was the one confronting her in the cabin. Do you really think had Dean not been there that she wouldn't have acted the same towards Sam? 

Yes I absolutely DO believe she never would have said similar Sam related things like that to Sam.  I don't think the writers would even have thought of having her do that to Sam.  Seriously.  I'm not joking.  Kaia absolutely would NOT have acted that way towards Sam.  She may have been her twirly "awesome baddaaaaaasss" self but she wouldn't have insulted him and if she did someone else sure as hell would have come back at her with a "your wrong!" of some sort.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Yes I absolutely DO believe she never would have said similar Sam related things like that to Sam.  I don't think the writers would even have thought of having her do that to Sam.  Seriously.  I'm not joking.  Kaia absolutely would NOT have acted that way towards Sam.  She may have been her twirly "awesome baddaaaaaasss" self but she wouldn't have insulted him and if she did someone else sure as hell would have come back at her with a "your wrong!" of some sort.

Uhhuh. And likely before the scene was over.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm already dreading tomorrow night's episode and the rest of this whole season, tbh, because of Dabb and co and what they've done with Dean in only the first three episodes of it. 

It's so depressing. :-(

I fully expect both tomorrow's and the 300th episode to be full of dumb/sloppy/old Dean jokes and/or references to him being a bully and natural born killer (weird that they don't see the disconnect there), while Sam is again the long-suffering, put upon soul, forced to put up with, and/or apologize for, his overbearing brother.

And I'm sorry, but for me, teasing, even 'insults' about being too smart, or too bookish, or too pretty (the hair) are not the same as being insulted over your intelligence, personal hygiene and moral center. Not even close.

Edited October 31, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bergamot]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, but 'we' will know better - that's all Dean fans need. Anyone should know that Dean isn't really any of those things, it doesn't need to be said. And it doesn't matter if Show implies he's all those things, says it, shows it, over and over and over again. That's just how bad guys, 'semi-villains' see him. They just want to get under his skin. Dean's a great guy, a hero. Jeez, don't you remember that scene five seasons ago when Sam said so?

LOL! Thank you, gonzosgirrl! Yes, I'm afraid that over the years Dean fans have grown all too familiar with this type of gaslighting.

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That is hie much I don't trust Dabb to handle Dean's death with any kind of alacrity, intelligence,  or respect for the character. So at this point I think I would rather Dean left the bunker, takes the Imapala and went off to find himself away from his family.

If Dean did that, he'd be told he was running away, and pouting.   Dean's the one character not allowed space on this show.

Edited October 31, 2018 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As far as I'm concerned everything Sam did in s4 was whitewashed.  He wasn't reckless or arrogant, or ego driven. So even if there wasn't an charcter saying, no this isn't a fault, the narrative took care of that.  Dean was mean and didn't let Sam make his own decisions and treated him like a child.  Even though Dean did actually allow Sam to make his choices and Ruby played Sam like a fiddle, Sam had to get away from Dean.  That, IMO, was the single worst line in the history of the show.  Because it showed me that Sam will never really be held responsible.  There will always be a giant "but" attached.  That's exactly what happened.

The question was whether Sam's flaws had ever been listed and not immediately refuted - I gave multiple examples.

In my opinion one bad line in one bad episode doesn't cancel out 21 other episodes full of dialogue that came in season 5, almost all of which pointed out how it was Sam's fault and Sam's choices - conveniently leaving out other characters' choices, like Castiel - that Lucifer rose. Sure Dean said that Sam didn't know any better that killing Lilith would do that... that one time, but it was more likely hyperbole or just something to say, because he took it back later on.  It was because Sam listened to Ruby... There was no mention of how Dean listened to the angels - who were also bad and had a huge part in starting the apocalypse. Nope that was ignored. I saw the narrative saying several times - including having Ruby, of all people, start the drumbeat - that it all happened because of Sam's choices, not saying that it wasn't Sam's fault. Besides that one bad episode and Dean's one statement that Sam didn't know (later taken back in sentiment if not an actual dialogue) and one joking thing that it was because Sam was a junkie, did anyone say it wasn't Sam's fault? I'll gladly admit if I am wrong, but I don't remember any. It was blamed on Sam and his "bad decisions."

Even if I were to buy into the theory that the show was saying Sam did it to get away from Dean because Dean was "bossy" - how was that not also Sam's decision to go to Ruby instead of sticking up to Dean himself? So what if Dean was bossy, or a bully, or however you want to paint the show as supposedly saying it? ...choosing to let the "bully" get away with it is a choice. We saw Sam stand up for himself to the bully in "Afterschool Special." He was perfectly capable of standing up for himself. So choosing to go to Ruby rather than telling Dean "no" and/or sticking up for himself is a choice and falls under the umbrella of Sam's "bad choices" leading up to what happened. I just don't see an excuse being given there - a choice is a choice is a choice. Sam chose to go off with Ruby rather than stick up for himself with Dean. No one forced him to.

Extreme example: That would be like a teen saying "I was bullied, so in order to feel better about myself I joined a racist group and beat up other people." No, that's not an excuse... You chose that course of action. And for me it's the same here.

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

  IMO, the show justified everything Sam did with Ruby when they white washed the demon blood drinking.  The fact that demon blood wasn't need to host an angel (which makes no sense) before or since it the textbook definition of whitewashing.   They even gave Ruby a justification when they said she was only getting Sam ready for Lucifer.

I'm not understanding how this is an excuse or a good thing. According to Ruby, Ruby was supposed to be helping Sam stop Lucifer, so how is lying about that some sort of justification and excusing her? "I was having you drink blood so I could prepare you to be Lucifer's vessel so he could unleash evil on the world" is not a whitewash, in my opinion: it's a villain's statement of purpose. And sure Sam had to drink the blood later to house Lucifer for his plan to jump into the pit - which backfired at first - but that wouldn't have even had to happen if the evil bitch hadn't helped to get Lucifer risen in the first place.

I'm just not getting it. It wasn't a good thing. It was a Hail Mary pass when you're 8 points down, because you carelessly fumbled the ball and let the other team score a defensive touchdown the play before. If you hadn't let the other team score, there would've been no need for the Hail Mary pass. And not only do you have to get that Hail Mary pass by drinking the demon blood... you have to get the two point conversion (jumping into the pit), too, or you still lose. I.E. not a good thing or a strategy you want to brag about. In my opinion, the Hail Mary doesn't "whitewash" the careless fumble in the first place.

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam with s8.  Authorial intent to me made it seem like we were supposed to side with Sam. 

I disagree. Under what circumstances is abandoning an innocent civilian to a demon supposed to be a good thing? When has it ever been depicted as such on the show? The fact that that was deliberately included in there was to point out that what Sam did was wrong... and the multiple voicemails highlighting how Kevin was abandoned had no other purpose except that, in my opinion. I'm just not buying what the writers came up with later to say that's not what they were doing. Even Bobby called Sam out for not looking for Dean later on, saying to me that was their intent all along, just as abandoning Kevin hinted at from the very beginning. Hunting = good and noble on this show, which is why the arc had Sam go back to it. Sam abandoning hunting and Kevin = bad. If we were supposed to side with Sam, why would the story ultimately have Sam going back to hunting rather than going for that "normal life?" It wouldn't because it's always been looked on as "abandoning the family business" just like it was from season 1. And in my opinion, the narrative has never strayed very far from that. In order for me to believe the authorial intent was any different in season 8, I would have had to see examples of how Sam was "making a difference" in his normal life - after first saving Kevin. Instead it was treated as joke with farmers' markets and "Sam hit a dog" and "Eeeeat me," so I never took it seriously as something they really intended.

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel like Sam is rewarded for his mistakes.  Like with the Brits.  He followed them blindly and he got promoted into Dean's leadership role for it.  Sure, Sam has issues, but they arent' treated like flaws.

Maybe that once instance ...if indeed this is how the current storyline is going to go - I'm still skeptical, myself - but when else has Sam been rewarded for his mistakes? He started an apocalypse - twice - for his mistakes. In my opinion, Dean is much more likely to get "rewarded" for his mistakes. Taking on the mark of Cain turned him into a demon, sure, but nothing bad happened because of it to the world, and in the process he got to help Castiel stop Metatron. Gadreel got him a tongue lashing, but in the end, Gadreel was redeemed and helped save the world. Kevin died, sure, but because Kevin died, Mrs. Tran was saved and the plight of the souls being stuck was brought to light, and Kevin eventually got to first spend time with his Mom and then got to go to heaven (talk about a whitewashing - that to me was whitewashing.) Dean kills Death - no problem... New Death becomes their ally in stopping another apocalypse (that his stupid brother caused due to his mistake.) What mistake has Dean ever made that's directly caused an apocalypse? (and in my opinion, breaking the first seal doesn't count, because that was ultimately called as Sam's fault.) Or even more than a couple of innocent people to die? Whereas Sam and Castiel's mistakes include mass amount of deaths. Basically Sam and Castiel's questionable choices cause apocalypses while Dean's questionable choices generally help save the world.

No, I disagree that Sam is "rewarded" for his mistakes. He's usually turned into the screw up because of them. And Castiel gets the same general treatment.

[Aeryn13]

And die Dean ever got a character upgrade for it? Have they ever started a full onscreen multiple storyline where Dean became the lead academic with a show? With his own genius team to really make it overt?

 

That would be the only halfway equivalent to the current leadership role of Sam's. And chances are very high that Dean lost that characteristic forever.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, I disagree that Sam is "rewarded" for his mistakes. He's usually turned into the screw up because of them. And Castiel gets the same general treatment.

He spends an entire season lying and going behind Dean's back, but Dean has to prove to Sam that he trusts him. 

The whole thing with Benny.  Sam gets his way when Benny cuts Dean lose. Sam's actions are never seen or talked about again.

The Brits- promoted to leader

Going into the cage- a chance to really confront Lucifer and basically telling him to go *beep himself.  Not to mention a very special episode dedicated to telling us what a very brave little snowflake Sam is. 

We can agree to disagree.  Sam gets big storylines and moments from his mistakes.

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And die Dean ever got a character upgrade for it? Have they ever started a full onscreen multiple storyline where Dean became the lead academic with a show? With his own genius team to really make it overt?

Not a chance.  We're lucky if the show remembers Dean knows how to read.

[ILoveReading]

I best way to summerize how I feel about the way Sam's flaws and mistakes are treated vs the way Dean's are, I'd love to swap.  I'd love to see them treat Dean the EXACT way they treat Sam when he messes up.

[ILoveReading]

Spoiler

Seriously, Dean's written exactly like a mouth breathing idiot in that sneak peek I posted in bitter spoilers.  This is deliberate and spiteful.  It has to be.

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

  Hide contents

Seriously, Dean's written exactly like a mouth breathing idiot in that sneak peek I posted in bitter spoilers.  This is deliberate and spiteful.  It has to be.

 

Spoiler

And Sam has all the answers, pop culture included. If I didn't know better, I'd swear Dean was a little brain damaged. I don't even have to look to know who wrote this script.

Edited October 31, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And die Dean ever got a character upgrade for it? Have they ever started a full onscreen multiple storyline where Dean became the lead academic with a show? With his own genius team to really make it overt?

When has Sam ever had that (being the lead "academic" with a genius team)? In many cases, Dean knows just as much lore as Sam. Dean now knows how to hack into traffic cams, and he is often the one to teach others how. In my opinion, Sam hasn't been touted as especially intelligent since about season 6 with Bobby's "Aim lower" when talking about Sam's intelligence kind of starting that. (And we later had Sam thinking Metatron was a Transformer). Every once in a while Sam knows something, but it seldom has that much effect on a case, and Dean is just as often shown to know something academic - like the information about Aesop's Fables.

Dean's upgrade was that he took on a dark power - arguably much stronger than the demon blood Sam was drinking - and instead of being shown as a self-destructive junkie like Sam was in season 4, Dean was generally able to handle it for more than half a season and then afterwards for almost an entire season. The same power that drove Cain to kill 1000's upon 1000's and apparently helped to corrupt an archangel, Dean was shown to mostly keep under control. And even when Dean momentarily went a little bit off the rails, he ultimately still had Sam admitting that Dean was their best shot, and Dean made mostly rational decisions (season 9) and then had God saying that Dean wasn't the problem, his screw-up brother was (season 10).

Dean even figured out a way to stop the problem, rather than succumbing to the dark power and delusionally insisting he was fine and knew what he was doing or going violent against his family. The only reason why things went south was because Sam screwed up. Nobody spent the next year reminding Dean about the terrible choices he made, even though some of his choices concerning the mark and Gadreel were questionable. So unlike almost every other character on the show that we've seen who has tried to take on a dark power and ended up coming to ruin - Sam, Castiel, Ava, Jake, Cain, and even to an extent Lucifer - Dean is the only one I remember who was shown to mostly be able to control it. Even when he was a demon - much like when he was a vampire - Dean was shown to have more restraint than any vampire or demon we'd ever seen before on the show.

In my opinion, that's a pretty good character upgrade. It was just a little different in that it highlighted Dean's character (as in temperament) and resolve rather than a specific ability.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The Brits- promoted to leader

Over a season later, after Dean left because Dean once again had to take the initiative and the lead after Sam once again screwed up. So basically Sam was leader by default. We'll see if it sticks ... I doubt it. So far Sam's not even being shown to be very good at it, in my opinion. The writers can't seem to help themselves in terms of showing Sam making bad leadership decisions.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Not to mention a very special episode dedicated to telling us what a very brave little snowflake Sam is. 

If you mean "Just My Imagination," I think it's a little harsh to describe it as that, but even if it was... in my opinion is it was about time. We'd already had a couple of episodes for Dean devoted to how brave and selfless Dean was in the previous couple of seasons. And Dean had had his own (non-evil) supernatural characters mainly associated with him (like Castiel and Death and Benny) for a long time. Castiel has been telling Dean how brave and awesome he is for years. Sam finally gets one being for one episode. I don't think that's all that much. I loved Sully and the Zanna, and I loved the episode.

If you don't like Sam or think that he's deserving of his own supernatural being who happens to think he's a good person also, that's fine, but some of us like Sam and think it was long overdue.

[devlin]

It’s a shame that dabb and his band of merry men don’t seem to realise or even care that by pandering to a certain section of the fan base  that they are killing the show for everyone else 

Edited November 1, 2018 by devlin
Wrong word

[tessathereaper]

14 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I best way to summerize how I feel about the way Sam's flaws and mistakes are treated vs the way Dean's are, I'd love to swap.  I'd love to see them treat Dean the EXACT way they treat Sam when he messes up.

Yep that's what it comes down to.  I wish Dean got the same treatment Sam did when he screws up, makes mistakes, has flaws.  That would be totally awesome.  Of course that would mean that at least half the stuff Dean gets blamed for or criticized for within the show would NEVER happen in the first place.  Sam barely even gets blamed for his own mistakes, whereas Dean gets blamed not only for his own, but for stuff that wasn't even a mistake(yet somehow the show manages to frame it as) AND for other people's mistakes, that they somehow manage to pass the blame on to him for.

[ILoveReading]

For me the justification and excuses don't work anymore.  Because its not just one-off episodes it's happening in.  It becoming part of a pattern with how the writers approach the exposition.  Lately, its always Sam correcting Dean.  "Dean can't know everything about everything."  But Sam can?    Even things Dean is supposed to be the expert or smart one in.

If we do get a smart Dean scene, the writers will be sure to make sure to throw Sam a bone.  See The Thing, when we finally see Dean do the research, they couldn't just let Dean give the info.  They had to make Sam correct him over a simple latin word, and a french one a few eps before.  So Sam can pronounce every single word in every single language?  Latin is something, Dean's been exposed to since he was was four.  We've seen him read it smoothly, even if he doesn't know exactly what the words mean.   Even if Dean doesn't know what the word might mean, it's not hard to figure out what capitulum  (or however its spelt) means in teh context it was being used it.  Plus, in the shows history the Men of Letters and the show have always called Bunker, Bunker's.  The fact that they used a latin word comes across as it being included for the sole purpose of using it for Sam correcting Dean.

Or the ScoobyDoo episode.  Dean is the one that loves Scooby Doo.  But when Dean was showing off his ScoobyDoo knowledge it was also another time they made sure to let the audience Sam also knew that lore.

It's like they can't show the audience Dean is smart and knows things without making to sure to put a stark reminder in that "Don't forget Sam knows more." 

Same with when someone is verbally decimating Dean.  "Dean doesn't need it" is no longer acceptable because every other character gets it.  Jack's had 6 pep talks so far.  So clearly they aren't working.  But people keep trying.  Why can't we get some dialogue for Dean to remind him how strong he is, or how he's sacrificed himself to save other multiple times.    Sam spent the entire episode badgering, pestering Dean to talk.  When he finally got his way he couldn't be bothered.  Nor could the writers bother.  

So at, some point it does become authorial intent.  

For me, its crossed the line.  

Edited November 1, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Bergamot]

23 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Yes I absolutely DO believe she never would have said similar Sam related things like that to Sam.  I don't think the writers would even have thought of having her do that to Sam.  Seriously.  I'm not joking.  Kaia absolutely would NOT have acted that way towards Sam.  She may have been her twirly "awesome baddaaaaaasss" self but she wouldn't have insulted him and if she did someone else sure as hell would have come back at her with a "your wrong!" of some sort.

If Dean had not been there, I don't really picture Kaia saying much of anything to Sam. Neither she or the original Kaia seem to have taken any particular notice of him, at least that I can remember. Now, I can maybe see Kaia taking on Jody, and making a few comments about Claire to antagonize her.

But here's a question, what if Claire had been there instead of Dean? Kaia definitely has a grudge against Claire, and I can see her blaming Claire for what happened to original Kaia, but there is no way I could imagine her contemptuously referring to Claire as weak and afraid and implying that she is a bully. I just don't picture something like that ever happening, not on this show.

I can see her maybe saying something about how Claire' courage makes her a dangerous adversary. Or maybe even making a sarcastic comment about Claire's golden curls, in order to make a point of how attractive Kaia actually finds her. But nothing like what she said to Dean. The encounter would have a totally different slant to it, but it would be as equally clear to me what was going on.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from "The Scar" episode thread:

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Yep there is always some excuse as to why Dean doesn't need defending, doesn't need pep talks, etc, etc.   Ever.  I just say enough is enough.  Dean needs and even if he doesn't bloody hell *I* do as a fan of the character.  I'm tired of anyone and everyone being able to talk crap about Dean and NO one in the show standing up for him and defending him.

Sam gives Dean a LOT of pep talks. I can think of almost a dozen off the top of my head, and I'm sure that's not all of them. Much of the time, however, most of what happens is some fans say "Oh, that doesn't count, because Sam didn't really mean it anyway." So apparently no, for some fans, they don't really want to see it, or if they do see it, they don't want to believe it anyway or give an excuse why it doesn't count or wasn't really what Sam meant anyway... It's "Sam wasn't sincere" or "Sam's just being manipulative."

Castiel also gives Dean pep talks... Most recently New Death gave an almost pep talk. There's God, and on an on. Dean still doesn't believe it.

As for defending Dean, I already explained why I think it can sometimes be taken the wrong way when that happens... Besides Dean isn't going to listen anyway, so... And I actually think the "Well, Dean defends Sam all the time" claim is a bit exaggerated. I can't really think of too many times when that's actually happened myself... And when it does happen, it's likely a point the writers are making: Dean is the Big Brother. He's supposed to stick up for, defend, etc. his little brother. That the writers tend to punish Sam when he tries to go out and do things on his own, make his own decisions, or even when he tries to save Dean just tells me that the writers want to keep this dynamic, no mater how many "You have to let me grow up"s the writers have Sam spout. That's why I'm not going to believe the "Sam as leader" thing coming to pass as a real thing rather than a passing fancy until it actually happens. It would disrupt their little Big Brother Dean / Little Brother Sam dynamic.

[Aeryn13]

But there is always 101 excuses why anyone can talk crap about Dean in the show and of course it wouldn't be fitting in the situation for anyone to stand up for him.

Or why Dean gets to be a dumbboard for exposition. Am I really supposed to hang in to the odd scene years ago where the character was allowed a "smart" moment? Does anyone remember? The writers?

What was he allowed lately, other than violent dickish bully or stupid goofy comic relief?

They never gave him "leader of a hunter army". And frankly they never will. They will never have demons running scared from bis declaration. They will never give him an outward pimpage episode like that because the showrunner and current writers don't see him as: a hero, brave, leadership material, smart, empathetic. That is the new normal now for Dean fans.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Aeryn13

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But there is always 101 excuses why anyone can talk crap about Dean in the show and of course it wouldn't be fitting in the situation for anyone to stand up for him.

Or why Dean gets to be a dumbboard for exposition. Am I really supposed to hang in to the odd scene years ago where the character was allowed a "smart" moment? Does anyone remember? The writers?

What was he allowed lately, other than violent dickish bully or stupid goofy comic relief?

They never gave him "leader of a hunter army". And frankly they never will. They will never have demons running scared from bis declaration. They will never give him an outward pimpage episode like that because the showrunner and current writers don't see him as: a hero, brave, leadership material, smart, empathetic. That is the new normal now for Dean fans.

 

That's the point that I was going to make to AwesomO. Most of the comments here are referring primarily to the Dabb era - basically S11 onward. That's a long time for Dean fans to watch their iconic character devolve into the sad excuse of the current Dean Winchester. I, for one, am tired of the show bullying him - verbally through various characters' speeches and visually through the stupid antics they have the character perform - assuming they allow him to actually be in the episode more than a few minutes. Posters here predicted (sorry, can't remember who) at the end of S12 when General Winchester took charge of the decimation of the BMOL that Sam was being set up as the new leader of the show. Who can tell me now that they were wrong? Apparently "Chief" is running things well - even literally killing the new King of Hell and telling the rest of the demons to go back to hell and stay there - and they took his orders well. *gag* In the meantime, his brother has been told he doesn't "feel feelings" properly, he's a dick, a bully, dumb, has the dining habits of a toddler (Rowena) and any number of other insults since Dabb took over running this show with his "yes men/women" writers. Even Mother Mary doesn't give a shit about him and is absent with some lame excuse when Dean comes back to his "home" which is now filled with a bunch of AU people that Chief can lead. Just reading what I wrote makes me physically ill. I don't know whether I can even hang in here anymore to watch the "SamWaywardSistersNickiferMaryCinnamonRollAUhunters" show.

Edited November 1, 2018 by FlickChick
Can't forget dumb!

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't know if it's still considered a spoiler since the ep is tonight, so to be safe I'll tag this. But really, WB? Et tu?

Spoiler

 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know if it's still considered a spoiler since the ep is tonight, so to be safe I'll tag this. But really, WB? Et tu?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It matches the episode description perfectly.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

It matches the episode description perfectly.

Dean who?

[ILoveReading]

So just like I figured.  Dean is now one of Sam's flunkies reporting for duty.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

So just like I figured.  Dean is now one of Sam's flunkies reporting for duty.

This episode started out like pretty much every other MOTW.  One of them finds a case, tells the other and asks if they're in.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

This episode started out like pretty much every other MOTW.  One of them finds a case, tells the other and asks if they're in.  

I'm talking about the end  of the episode where Dean pretty much said he would report for duty and called Sam chief.

Lately its Sam finding the case.  Sam is clearly in charge now and Dean is just another face in in Sam's army.

[Aeryn13]

Great, it's bootlicker!Dean now to SuperAmazingSam.

[Lemuria]

Yep. The ep wasn’t bad overall, and I was glad to hear Sam say what he did. And then we had to get that last line. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Lemuria said:

Yep. The ep wasn’t bad overall, and I was glad to hear Sam say what he did. And then we had to get that last line. 

I have to believe the "Chief" was tongue in cheek.

It's funny how Sam/Jared doesn't ever seem to see the inanity though. He keeps coming across as falsely modest about it.

[devlin]

I always feel that Jensen is telling a different story than the writers. I wouldn't be surprised if perez intended for dean to call sam chief at the end with awe and hero worship but thank god Jensen said it sarcastically. And its good to know that ghosts don't bow down to sam the way demons do

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, devlin said:

I always feel that Jensen is telling a different story than the writers. I wouldn't be surprised if perez intended for dean to call sam chief at the end with awe and hero worship but thank god Jensen said it sarcastically. And its good to know that ghosts don't bow down to sam the way demons do

Well, Jensen is 98% of the reason Dean is as iconic as he is, and manages to crawl out from under whatever bus this week that the seemingly petty showrunners and writers are always trying to toss him under. Thank goodness for Dean fans that Jensen Ackles is the biggest Dean fan out there. So, yes, I'm sure Jensen delivered the last line completely differently from how Perez heard it in his pea brain.

Still, I thought the episode was pretty innocuous and fun overall. But my biggest nit is how, in season 12 Perez fashion, he once again sent Dean off screen on a coffee run or something for no good reason whatsoever. As soon as Dean gets the salt circle set up, suddenly he literally vanishes. Back at the comic book store the two Samantha Sues are working side by side, but nooooo, can't have that for Dean. The OCs get to run around and have all the fun in the hospital until the last freaking second where Perez couldn't get away with not bringing Dean back in before the end, 'cuz contract, I guess. Seriously, WTF? That's when the episode went downhill for me.

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But there is always 101 excuses why anyone can talk crap about Dean in the show and of course it wouldn't be fitting in the situation for anyone to stand up for him.

Or why Dean gets to be a dumbboard for exposition. Am I really supposed to hang in to the odd scene years ago where the character was allowed a "smart" moment? Does anyone remember? The writers?

What was he allowed lately, other than violent dickish bully or stupid goofy comic relief?

They never gave him "leader of a hunter army". And frankly they never will. They will never have demons running scared from bis declaration. They will never give him an outward pimpage episode like that because the showrunner and current writers don't see him as: a hero, brave, leadership material, smart, empathetic. That is the new normal now for Dean fans.

This.

+1000. 

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Still, I thought the episode was pretty innocuous and fun overall. But my biggest nit is how, in season 12 Perez fashion, he once again sent Dean off screen on a coffee run or something for no good reason whatsoever. As soon as Dean gets the salt circle set up, suddenly he literally vanishes. Back at the comic book store the two Samantha Sues are working side by side, but nooooo, can't have that for Dean. The OCs get to run around and have all the fun in the hospital until the last freaking second where Perez couldn't get away with not bringing Dean back in before the end, 'cuz contract, I guess. Seriously, WTF? That's when the episode went downhill for me.

Yeah, I thought the same thing, at the same point.

And then we got that utterly predictable and redundant car scene, that put Dean back in his place at the end(because with the exception of Carver- and only in the latter part of his tenure-that's the only real role that any of the showrunners on this show have ever allowed Dean/JA to fill for any extended period of time).

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

But my biggest nit is how, in season 12 Perez fashion, he once again sent Dean off screen on a coffee run or something for no good reason whatsoever. As soon as Dean gets the salt circle set up, suddenly he literally vanishes. Back at the comic book store the two Samantha Sues are working side by side, but nooooo, can't have that for Dean. The OCs get to run around and have all the fun in the hospital until the last freaking second where Perez couldn't get away with not bringing Dean back in before the end, 'cuz contract, I guess. Seriously, WTF? That's when the episode went downhill for me.

I had the same thought when Sam told Dean to stay behind and baby sit.  I was asking where's Dean.  Yeah, it would have been cool to see Dean and Dirk (i think and really show Sam and Dirk) both running from the hactchet man and both geeking out and freaking out at the same time.  But I guess it was more important to give the MacGyver moment to Sam even thought that's much more of a Dean move. 

While I'll admit this was the best Dean was written in awhile, there were still little digs at the character.  With Dean needing to be saved, and needing simple stuff that makes no sense for Sam to know explained to him by Sam.  

Sam, the boy that seems to hate fun, knows videogames and internet slang.  I don't buy it.  It just seems like yet another attempt to turn Sam into Dean. 

27 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And then we got that utterly predictable and redundant car scene, that put Dean back in his place at the end(because with the exception of Carver- and only in the latter part of his tenure-that's the only real role that any of the showrunners on this show have ever allowed Dean/JA to fill for any extended period of time).

This is why I hated it, because even if Jensen changed it, if its authorial intent we'll see it in further epsiodes.  I'm expecting next week, Dean will be out of his room  and interacting with the other hunters.    He may even try to give them advice only to be told, "stop bossing me around."

I do also get a sense we were supposed to see Sam in charge during the hunt, evidenced by all the times Sam spoke over Dean.  I think it was just Jensen's dominate screen presences that that sucked all the oxygen out of the room, so Dean came across as mostly in control.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I had the same thought when Sam told Dean to stay behind and baby sit.

To be fair though, Dean told Sam to stay with an injured Stewart (in the doorway) while he went inside to investigate. Not that I disagree with the overall tone, but there was that. Swear to Chuck though, if even one of those AU hunters is assy to Dean, I'm going to lose it. The only reason they have to be wary of Dean was while he was Michael, and for all intents and purposes, that's over. He's been back for a couple weeks now, so the time for them to be pissy has passed. They would do well to remember that he saved ALL their asses in the AU and they are alive and in this world because of him. So yeah, a little respect is due. Lets see if the writers remember that.

[Myrelle]

I thought they worked more as equals in this one, but the equality came through only due to JA's more dominating screen presence, IMO-because the writing itself continued to push the Leader Sam stuff-what with his instructing Riley to get lamb's blood, finding the case and getting Dean to go with him, and then with his being attached to the more intelligent OC in this one(and notice which one they attached Dean to and with)-that, more than anything else to me, was an indicator of how the writers on this show, and as a whole now, see each brother. That whole bit when they first went into the comic store and told each other that they even looked like those respective OCs was such obvious and on-the-nose writing that I cringed while watching it-and then, yeah, we get their names-(Sam)antha and Dirk-and all I could do then was shake my head in dismay.

I'm starting to think they should just put quotation bubbles showing the dialogue next to each character on the show now-that's how much like comic book writing it's all become to me.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Myrelle

[devlin]

I think that in order to make sam “chief” the writers are going to have to take dean out of a majority of the planning and the “sam taking charge” scenes but that’s fine with me as long as they give me dean lying on a bed eating pizza coz I can ff thru all the sam scenes 

[juppschmitz]

On 31/10/2018 at 4:57 PM, catrox14 said:

Or notice them beyond two good looking men and a cool car.

Don't forget there's a gazillion peoole living in the bunker now. They all need supplies. Toilet paper!

[Allidean]

On 11/1/2018 at 12:12 AM, devlin said:

It’s a shame that dabb and his band of merry men don’t seem to realise or even care that by pandering to a certain section of the fan base  that they are killing the show for everyone else 

 

The same could be said for turning it into the Dean show. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Allidean

[Res]

4 hours ago, Allidean said:

The same could be said for turning it into the Dean show. 

Which has never happened and never will, especially under the current regime and considering the pattern of past regimes, although I would totally watch the heck out of that show as that is the only character I care about anymore. He is the only character that remotely interests me as he is the most real and least whitewashed one out of the bunch. 

However, the same would apply as you are stating and that's the whole argument so I don't understand your point of taking the opposite side but having the exact same point. The whole point is that there are several shows out there that can write for two or more leads without a problem so why does this show have such a horrible time doing it.

[Mulva]

4 hours ago, Allidean said:

The same could be said for turning it into the Dean show. 

Yup.  It's been The Dean Winchester Show since S4.  I don't think it's a coincidence that S4 had a major ratings drop which the show never recovered from.

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, Mulva said:

Yup.  It's been The Dean Winchester Show since S4.  I don't think it's a coincidence that S4 had a major ratings drop which the show never recovered from.

And yet people are still watching (even if complaining) 10 years later.