“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Myrelle]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree.  I think there is a part of Dean that wants a normal life but he's accepted that its not something he can have.  So he makes the best of a bad situation.  He appreciates all the little things in life.  That's why I think he nested.  He's a walking definition of when life hands you lemons make lemonade.

  I remember reading a copy of a script for the episode Home.  The there was more to the scene where Dean tells Sam what he remembers.  He says that he remembered their mom  giving him milkshakes and that that it was the last time he ever felt safe.  So I always thought this is what normal represents to Dean and what he craves most of all.  Safety and security and knowing his loved ones were okay.  I think Dean needs family and friends.  It doesn't matter if that's an old bunker or a house with a white picket fence.

ITA with this entire post, but especially the bolded part. And wondering/being curious about a normal life is far different than craving it. I think Sam has always craved it, but Dean was simply more curious about it in the way that most people wonder what their lives would have been like if circumstances had been different for them-or as he said in WIAWSNB-if some tragedy hadn't happened that shaped them and/or their life into what it is. He seemed happy in that life because everyone he knew(including himself) was safe from monsters and doing and being what they wanted to do and be. But he went back out of responsibility and love for his real life when he realized that that normal life was all just a fabrication-and yes, unattainable, for him at least, because of the responsibility to human kind and the world, that he carries. And while he wanted to stay so bad, he knew that he couldn't. And it should be remembered that this was shortly after he'd lost John-his lodestone in life, as far as he was concerned, since his mother had died. So questioning the hunting life then would have been very apropos and expected and one could even say normal, for him at that time.

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I always believed because of that line in home and from Jensen's portrayal that he loved the idea of what Lisa and Ben represented, more than he love them.  I'm not saying he didn't care about them. he obviously did but I don't think Dean was really ever in love with Lisa.   He very much came across as a guy going thought the motions. He might have been holding a job and having barbecues but we know his mind was on Sam the whole time.  He was trying to figure out how to get Sam out of the cage, which meant there was a good chance he wasn't sleeping much.  Which we saw when it seemed like Dean had been awake all night.  Plus, we know he was having nightmares and drinking.  (That is why what Bobby, Cas and "Sam" did was exceptionally cruel.  But that;s for another post). 

That doesnt' really sound like someone who found what he was looking for to me.

The most important and vital scene to me  in the S6 premiere was when he was having a beer with his neighbor, at the very beginning, and telling the guy that he used to be in pest control and how much he enjoyed the work and why-and that he missed it. I've honestly always felt that Dean felt about Lisa and Ben the way that Ilovereading describes it here. And to me it wasn't just Sam that he missed, but the hunting life, too-and I think that was captured beautifully when he took the tarp off Baby in the next episode and the look on his face said it all-"Now, I'm home." 

I think Dean loves the hunt and has always loved it, but it messes with his psyche that he loves it so much.

And that's what I've loved most about Dean Winchester from Day One of this show, to be perfectly honest.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No, but I do believe if he could have it and know the world (and Sam) was still safe, he would. Which I think is what @companionenvy was getting at? Sorry if I read that wrong.

I 100% agree with you that Dean has accepted and embraced the life he does have, made that lemonade wherever he could. I don't think that precludes dreaming of something better though.

I think that in these latter seasons, Dean is simply beginning to feel his years more keenly and the toll that hunting has taken on him, too-not just his family-and he just wants to rest and he NEEDS the rest so badly, that thoughts of "retiring" from hunting are likely just as alluring to him now as "normal" once was when he realized how much the hunting life had taken from him. But I'd bet the ranch that given some of that much needed rest, he would want to be back out on the hunt again-because the hunt is not just what Dean does(that's Sam, IMO), it's who he is at his core.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And that's what I've loved most about Dean Winchester from Day One of this show, to be perfectly honest.

I feel the same.  Dean takes what life throws at him and tries his hardest to make it work.   That's why I think he adapted to living with Lisa and Ben.   But given the opportunity the hunting life had the stronger call. 

In WIAWSNB Dean's wish wasn't for a normal life.  It was simply for his mom to live.  He had no other expectations.   His dream world was far from perfect.  In his own head he felt his family would see as him as ne'er do well alcoholic.  He didn't get along well with Sam and they had nothing in common.   It's not what I would think Dean's "heaven" would look like. 

I don't think Dean defines normal like Sam does.  Sam thinks of TV version of normal.   Whereas for Dean, normal is his life.   He doesn't need to define it. 

For me the pivotal moment with Sam came in Book of the Damned when he was talking to Charlie.  Sam tells her this is his life and he loves it., but its the prefect example of saying one thing but body langange and tone saying something different.  Sam has never embraced hunting like Dean has and he usually needs an external reason to keep going.  But in that chat with Charlie he reminded me of someone was was resigned to his fate, and accepted it because he didn't think he could change it.   This is why I think the British Men of Letter appealed so strongly to Sam.  It wasn't because he was stupid, it was because he was blinded by the idea of eliminating all monsters and seeing a chance to get out of hunting for good.

[Myrelle]

I think that Dean is the more natural hunter-"born and raised" a hunter as he described himself in First Born-while Sam was just raised to be one and, as such, has had a harder time learning to embrace it-and tbh, I wish they would just leave things/differences in the two brothers such as this alone-instead of constantly trying to turn Sam into Dean as that line about "loving" his life as a hunter seemed to me to be attempting to do, yet again. I mean it's possible that the writers want Sam to love the life, too, but IA that I've just never really "felt" that from Sam-that he truly loved it-not even now-and definitely not as much, or in the same way, that Dean has always loved it and felt about it.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree.  I think there is a part of Dean that wants a normal life but he's accepted that its not something he can have.  So he makes the best of a bad situation.  He appreciates all the little things in life.  That's why I think he nested.  He's a walking definition of when life hands you lemons make lemonade.

  I remember reading a copy of a script for the episode Home.  The there was more to the scene where Dean tells Sam what he remembers.  He says that he remembered their mom  giving him milkshakes and that that it was the last time he ever felt safe.  So I always thought this is what normal represents to Dean and what he craves most of all.  Safety and security and knowing his loved ones were okay.  I think Dean needs family and friends.  It doesn't matter if that's an old bunker or a house with a white picket fence.  

I always believed because of that line in home and from Jensen's portrayal that he loved the idea of what Lisa and Ben represented, more than he love them.  I'm not saying he didn't care about them. he obviously did but I don't think Dean was really ever in love with Lisa.   He very much came across as a guy going thought the motions. He might have been holding a job and having barbecues but we know his mind was on Sam the whole time.  He was trying to figure out how to get Sam out of the cage, which meant there was a good chance he wasn't sleeping much.  Which we saw when it seemed like Dean had been awake all night.  Plus, we know he was having nightmares and drinking.  (That is why what Bobby, Cas and "Sam" did was exceptionally cruel.  But that;s for another post). 

That doesnt' really sound like someone who found what he was looking for to me.

I very much agree with this.  "Nesting" doesn't mean "normal", and home doesn't mean normal.  Dean can make a home anywhere whether it's "normal" or not.  But for Dean that whole thing wasn't about normal, it was about safe and Dean himself can't really feel safe in an environment like that knowing what is really out there, as we saw - he was jumpy, he still checked out things for potential supernatural influence if he saw something that looked like it might be, he was still trying to figure out a way to save Sam, he wasn't sleeping, etc.  Like you said he cared about Lisa and Ben and certainly he was putting himself into those relationships but he was mostly going through the motions in the life he was living.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It wasn't because he was stupid, it was because he was blinded by the idea of eliminating all monsters and seeing a chance to get out of hunting for good.

Disclaimer: all my opinion coming up...

For me, I think it was because Sam thought it would make a difference, and he could maybe be part of a group. (The stupid part, for me, was Sam ignoring all the evidence that it wasn't a group he should belong to and the difference they made was an evil one rather than a good one.)

For me, Sam doesn't necessarily love hunting for hunting itself, but because it gives him a purpose. For me, Sam has generally wanted to feel like he "belongs" somewhere, but he doesn't. He generally doesn't play well with others, really. He tries and he pretends - as we often used to see when he questions people during cases - but he doesn't feel like he belongs much of anywhere. I think it's one of the reasons why he left and went to college, because he thought maybe there he'd find a place where he felt like he belonged in the "normal" world... but not only didn't it really work, it wasn't possible for Sam. And the place where "people" (mainly demons and Lucifer) told Sam he did "belong" wasn't where Sam wanted to belong, so Sam started to evolve that desire to belong into something different.

I think Sam likes hunting, because he finally learned that even though he doesn't really "belong" in the normal world, he can make a difference in it. He can "mean something" even if he can't make himself "fit" where he wants to fit. That's why I believed Sam in season 10 when he was talking to Charlie. For me, Sam has learned that hunting is his way to get close to what he wants - feeling like he belongs - by having a purpose, and he's finally happy with that.

 

In contrast, I think maybe Dean thinks he has to be out there doing it all on his own as an outsider to society, because that's what John taught him... But ironically, Dean is more of a leader and he is able to fit in almost anywhere (like Sam wishes he could). I think Dean is drawn to hunting because for him it fits that example John raised him with, and he's good at it - but more because Dean is adaptable and can do what he puts his mind to - but I'm not sure that's where Dean is really comfortable. Dean seems to need people more than Sam does, and hunting is more of a lonely lifestyle.

Dean might like the more "pure" aspects of hunting, but as he learned later, hunting isn't necessarily always black and white, so in my opinion, later in his life, maybe hunting had less appeal for him. Dean can save people, yes, but more often later on, that saving came which difficult choices and someone maybe being hurt, and maybe that appeals less to Dean.

Maybe the more ironic thing is that even though Dean is able to fit, and being able to fit maybe makes him happy, Dean's self-esteem issues nag at him that maybe he doesn't deserve to fit... And I think this is why he gravitates towards hunting. I think Dean likes certain aspects of hunting and - as @companionenvy said in that great post above - he thinks he should love it, but in a way, I think deep down Dean might feel more like the hunting lifestyle is more what he deserves more than what he really wants. Because it's a double edged sword. Dean might enjoy saving people and some aspects of hunting, but other aspects of hunting can also feed into Dean's self-esteem issues and feeling like he's crap. Whether that be things Dean has to do while hunting or the times when he can't save the people in time, hunting then can make Dean feel badly and not be something that Dean enjoys.

And I think we've actually seen examples of this in the show. Whereas I think Sam can compartmentalize more, and tend to more be the one who can look at it as "well we didn't win this one, but we save more than we don't" I think Dean more feels badly and "we should be able to save everybody," and he beats himself up when they don't. (This especially happens a lot in season 7, but there are examples from way back in season 2 - like "What Is...") And I think that aspect - and the feeling like crap aspect - more makes hunting a love/hate relationship for Dean than anything else.

So, summarized:

I think Sam wanted to feel like he "fit" somewhere, and he tried to fit, but he never did - or at least he didn't "fit" anywhere good or anywhere he wanted to be - so Sam learned that hunting provided him a way to have a purpose anyway, and Sam likes that, and he can be happy with that. And Sam is comfortable enough with himself now to mostly accept that it's okay that he doesn't fit, so he can embrace hunting not as a failure to "belong," but as a way to make a difference. (Every once in a while - like the BMoL - that feeling of wanting to belong raises its ugly head, and hopefully Sam will ignore it next time, because: it ain't gonna happen, Sam. You're a weirdo, you don't play well with others, you don't belong. It just is, Honey, and that's okay.)

I think Dean thinks he should be on his own, partially because that's what he was taught and partially because he thinks he doesn't deserve more, but in reality he seems to need people and he's actually good at belonging. I think Dean might actually enjoy a normal life, but maybe he doesn't feel like he deserves one. So hunting allows Dean to make a difference by helping other people to have what he wishes he had but doesn't feel like he deserves, but maybe unfortunately also feeds a little into those self-esteem issues.

[gonzosgirrl]

Spoiler

He does make it sound like it goes on longer than the two 'live' episodes.

Unfortunately I expect half of it to end up on the cutting room floor. IMO Speight has about as much appreciation and respect for "Dean" as Dabb does, so my expectations for his directing are zero. The editors haven't done him any favours either (see: 14x01). I hope Jensen stops giving interviews til he reads ahead *and* sees what ends up on the screen.

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

EW interview w/ Jensen

https://ew.com/tv/2018/10/17/supernatural-jensen-ackles-michael-season-14/

Spoiler

Overall, the experience of creating Michael took Ackles back to the beginning of his time as Dean. “I think about when I was first doing Dean Winchester and it was very similar,” Ackles says. “It wasn’t until about the third or fourth episode [of season one] where I really felt like I had a handle on the idea of who this guy was. So I feel like I’m back in that same seat again, 13 seasons later. It’s cool.”

 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Stranger in a Strange Land" Thread:

4 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Thou hast intrigued me, O Great and Awesome Awesome (OK, that's confusing. :).  What do you think they have in mind, if you don't mind my asking?

The above question was in response to my statement here:

Quote

As for the questionable leadership choices you mentioned... those might have a purpose, too. We'll see later if it comes into play.

I'll do my best to keep my thoughts on this cohesive, but I'm not going to promise anything : ) ...

Basically, I think that even if Dabb does want Sam as the leader as some think it appears from this episode (I'm not so sure and I'll get to that in a moment), then I think there's a reason it took so damn long to get to this point. That despite what looks like things "going smoothly," in this episode, Dabb still has Sam making rookie leadership mistakes - and I say "still" because "Beat the Devil" had a bunch of them, resulting in a dead Sam (which is pretty much the antithesis of being an effective leader) - and that's because I think the writers can't help themselves.

It's like when there's a scene in a diner lately and Dean has to have the burger (unless there's something wrong with him, like he's a demon). It's just what they do. Dabb wrote this supposed "oh look Sam has this epiphany that he should be a leader rather than a follower" scene and had him leading a bunch of hunters, yet next season... nothing comes of that. Sam is right back to obsessing about being "different" and projecting his problems all over the place, and when we finally do get back to Sam as leader somewhere near the end of the season, what do the writers write? That Sam is apparently awful at being leader, because not only does he decide to do something stupid - go into the tunnel - and get half of the people he promised to protect killed (and Dean was the one who actually saved the other half of those people) ...he gets killed himself. Which, if you think about it, is almost the antithesis of being a leader in that it's no help at all.

So I ask, for what purpose was the scenario written exactly that way? Sure they needed Sam dead, and they might want there to be some obstacles for Sam to overcome on the way to being a leader, if that's the goal, but why have Sam fail so spectacularly? Why not have Sam dying while saving the civilian? That's still a failure, but at least Sam does something heroic. Why contrast the civilian in Sam's charge dying  - with Sam not really doing anything to try to prevent it, to boot - with Dean saving his civilian charge - twice? And trying to use logic - okay, I know, I know, I hear @SueB telling me I shouldn't be applying logic to this, sorry about that - I could only come up with two main things. 1) they actually didn't want to be showing Sam as a good leader, since here's their big chance and they show it as a major screw up or 2) they couldn't help themselves, because that's what they do when they write Sam. Sam is the angst / doomsday magnet (or the guy who gets kidnapped and tied to little chairs), so that's the easy "got to."

So now comes this season, and we get things supposedly looking like they are running well - though having the people calling Sam "Sir" and such could be a set up for the guys not really relating to Sam and things going downhill fast - yet Sam still makes rookie leadership mistakes... maybe because he doesn't want to make the people he's leading unhappy (not necessarily the best strategy... it's like the parent wanting to be a "friend" rather than a parent), and eventually this should catch up with him. And if it doesn't, I think things will get awkward, in my opinion.

So is this another example of Sam wanting to belong (which in my looking at the character above, I think is a thing for Sam), but instead of trying it as a "follower" (the BMoL)  he's going to try it as a leader? My prediction based on my reading of the character: it ain't gonna work in the end... I just don't think it's where Sam should be comfortable, and he just doesn't "fit in" like Dean does. Not a ding on Sam, it's just the way it is. (And I like Sam that way).

But if Dabb really is trying to write it another way... I still don't think it will work, because they can't help themselves, and eventually the character of Sam and how they generally write him will course correct. Even if it's subconscious and they don't know they are doing it, they can't help themselves. And if it doesn't go that way, I think things will get awkward quickly unless there is some major insight somewhere. My opinion only on that.

Now that being said, I think with Carver it was different... I think there was a little more of an "on purpose" in his case. He was going to get a Sam who didn't look for Dean and stopped hunting no matter what, even if that meant abandoning Kevin... but that wasn't how Sam acted before - Sam had always looked for Dean in the past - and there wasn't a way to make that look sympathetic on Sam's character (though really, what did Carver expect, I mean come on!) So Carver could try to force it all he wanted, but there was too much history, and the characters weren't going to let it work. Unless he wanted a Sam who broke down - which again based on character might have either been a repeat or a stretch - it wasn't going to work. And that should have been obvious, in my opinion. That Carver didn't correct his mistake in any way - and it would've been as easy as a couple of lines - but instead let Sam's character get thrown under the bus for whatever petty or prideful reason, was his fault, in my opinion. He did Sam's character no favors, and I was glad when he was gone.

We'll see if Dabb figures out what's happening and course corrects... Unless his plan is to ultimately show that Sam isn't comfortable being a leader ...which I actually wouldn't mind at all as long as Sam isn't shown as a loser or somehow lesser for it.

 

I'm not sure any of that made much sense, but that's where my brain took this.

[devlin]

 now that sam is basically the king of hell, I wonder if he will step up and also be the leader of heaven and to get Michael to leave dean, all he will have to do is yell at him to leave his weak brother alone and Michael will realise the error of his ways and leave dean to return to his own world 

[DeeDee79]

27 minutes ago, devlin said:

 now that sam is basically the king of hell, I wonder if he will step up and also be the leader of heaven and to get Michael to leave dean, all he will have to do is yell at him to leave his weak brother alone and Michael will realise the error of his ways and leave dean to return to his own world 

It could be so. The season is still young :(

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't talk about the article because it's spoilers, but honestly, every time I think Dabb can't screw over Dean/Jensen fans any more, he outdoes himself.

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't talk about the article because it's spoilers, but honestly, every time I think Dabb can't screw over Dean/Jensen fans any more, he outdoes himself.

Ain't that the truth.

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But if Dabb really is trying to write it another way... I still don't think it will work, because they can't help themselves, and eventually the character of Sam and how they generally write him will course correct. Even if it's subconscious and they don't know they are doing it, they can't help themselves. And if it doesn't go that way, I think things will get awkward quickly unless there is some major insight somewhere. My opinion only on that.

This comes from a perspective of being completely unspoiled for the premiere.  And I ignored interviews and such to the point that if I knew Dabb was the showrunner's name, I forgot it over the summer.

I really don't think there is a coordinated effort to elevate Sam at Dean's expense.  If there is, they suck at it.  The premiere was a hot mess when scrutinized but it wasn't a hot mess with a consistent agenda.

Pulling apart the there will be no new King of Hell scenes at the end, it comes off as if parts of the production team are working against each other.  If Sam is intended to be the greatest and most feared leader ever, they wouldn't have made Kip such a weaselly caricature.  That was intentional from casting to wardrobe to dialogue.  

The two things that are out of sync with that are Cas getting his ass kicked which was a plot point to set up the final confrontation.  But even then he had to be beat down by every Demon there, so it underlines they are ineffectual too.  Easy for Sam to intimidate when their leader was killed and most of their numbers depleted. 

The bigger issue was Sam's speech and everyone's reaction to it.  It was out of step with who Kip and his demons were.  They acted like he scared off Lucifer though awesome force of will.  He scared off three followers who followed a Demon who never could have ruled Hell who were defeated by a small army of hunters (relative to the normal Demon fight)   I think the speech was more about wanting a moment of epic than about Sam .  They sacrificed having it make sense for that.   It would have played better if there was more weariness about these petty low level Demons diverting his attention when he had other more important things to do and had Cas rolling his eyes.  If Dean had been there, that was how it would have played because that's how they are used to writing Dean and that is Dean's typical attitude. That isn't how they are used to writing Sam.

Its also possible that the speech was just a short cut to give a preemptive explanation on why someone jockeying for control of Hell isn't a story they are going to focus on while Michael in a Deansuit is on canvas.

So I agree with you.  Even if they are doing something on purpose, they will course correct.  They can't help it.  They haven't even managed to avoid undermining themselves in one episode.

[gonzosgirrl]

Seriously. Just look at the two interviews/spoilers released today and then try to tell me there's nothing to the argument that Dabb & Co aren't screwing with Dean/Jensen fans. Y'all can spin the intentions of the Sam pimping in the premiere, but the facts are right there on the screen. And what's coming for Michael/Dean (or more to the point, what's not) are the icing on the cake. I don't care what kind of character Kip was or wasn't, he deified Sam, as did the bootlicking AU'ers in the bunker. And Sam lapped it up without an ounce of irony. That's the message they put out there, and it is echoed in every single interview and soundbite the management has put out about the upcoming season. It's Sam's world and everyone else is just living in it.

Spoiler

And Dean is just happy that all his hard work in raising Sam has paid off. I guess he can retire now.

[Maren]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seriously. Just look at the two interviews/spoilers released today and then try to tell me there's nothing to the argument that Dabb & Co aren't screwing with Dean/Jensen fans. Y'all can spin the intentions of the Sam pimping in the premiere, but the facts are right there on the screen. And what's coming for Michael/Dean (or more to the point, what's not) are the icing on the cake. I don't care what kind of character Kip was or wasn't, he deified Sam, as did the bootlicking AU'ers in the bunker. And Sam lapped it up without an ounce of irony. That's the message they put out there, and it is echoed in every single interview and soundbite the management has put out about the upcoming season. It's Sam's world and everyone else is just living in it.

  Hide contents

And Dean is just happy that all his hard work in raising Sam has paid off. I guess he can retire now.

Word to this whole post. I honestly don't see any role for Dean in this show anymore, other than as another cheerleader/sycophant for Sam. I'm not interested in seeing Dean prop up Sam or play Deansel in distress or stand around and deify Sam, and I really think that's all Dabb sees in Dean. He can't cut Dean because the show is over without Jensen, it just is no matter how much Dabb may resent it. But that doesn't stop him from doing his damndest to minimize him. It's depressing. Every subsequent showrunner has been worse for Dean. Just when you think it can't get worse, it does.

[devlin]

I just don’t understand the spn writers (past and present) attitude towards dean and why they seem to dislike him so much. In interviews they refer to him as “boring”, “mentally deficient”and   “contaminated”. It’s even more jarring when they refer to sam as the “mature, brave selfless smart one”. They must hate having to write for a character they dislike and I think the resentment comes out in the way they refuse to include him in any decent long storylines. But thank god we have Jensen and his ability to rise above their pettiness and give us a rich layered performance 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just trying to do the right thing here.

Spoiler

25 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So after remembering the Nougat Baby spoilers, I'm going to spec that Dean has to stop thinking about his own "semi-possession"(Again, WTAF?!-everyone else is/gets "possessed", but Dean is "semi-possessed"-what does that even mean?! I'm afraid to even try and guess with these clowns), I'm going to guess that it's because of whatever happens with the cinnamon roll that puts him in a hospital bed-and if so, UGH!-just another character for Dean to have to sublimate himself and his own trauma over again and some more; and just another excuse for yet one more dropped Dean myth-arc storyline. UGH! UGH!! and UGH!!!

Spoiler

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that they have screwed Jensen over again - not only dropping the Big Bad thing, but then minimizing his experience and ignoring his trauma again. Years of the show have been devoted to Sam's post-Lucifer and post-Gadreel ordeals and he can't even get a couple episodes. I am truly boggled.

I can only guess 'semi-possessed' is some kind of construct designed to explain why he can just shrug it off and they never have to address it again.

Edited October 18, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

Honestly, at this point it wouldnt' surprise me if Buck/Lemming

Spoiler

Decide Dean likes being possessed and wants to stay possessed.  They seem to think he's nothing but a killer anyway

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Honestly, at this point it wouldnt' surprise me if Buck/Lemming

  Reveal hidden contents

Decide Dean likes being possessed and wants to stay possessed.  They seem to think he's nothing but a killer anyway

They already did that in season 8, when Purgatory was "pure" and season 10, when he liked being a demon.  They keep pushing that Dean wants simple killing without any pesky moral ambiguity.

[ILoveReading]

https://tvline.com/2018/10/18/blind-item-original-cast-member-out-at-long-running-drama-series/#comment-list-wrapper

I know the odds of this being Jensen are zero but if it was it would explain a lot of Dabb's choices this season.

[Res]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2018/10/18/blind-item-original-cast-member-out-at-long-running-drama-series/#comment-list-wrapper

I know the odds of this being Jensen are zero but if it was it would explain a lot of Dabb's choices this season.

Still praying it is though.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2018/10/18/blind-item-original-cast-member-out-at-long-running-drama-series/#comment-list-wrapper

I know the odds of this being Jensen are zero but if it was it would explain a lot of Dabb's choices this season.

He did sign the new contract, didn't he?  And didn't just agree to stay on till he could get a proper exit?

[ILoveReading]

Just now, ahrtee said:

He did sign the new contract, didn't he?  And didn't just agree to stay on till he could get a proper exit?

It said at the end of the year.  We know he has a contract for this year but no details as to whether thats a one or two year contract.

[Res]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

He did sign the new contract, didn't he?  And didn't just agree to stay on till he could get a proper exit?

That's not something that they actually ever release to the public until after the fact, especially Jensen.

[Aeryn13]

It says "amicable" so not Jensen. Nothing about Dabb/Singer/Nep Duo is amicable towards Jensen or the character he plays. This is more hate-writing a la Mark Sheppard. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

It says "amicable" so not Jensen. Nothing about Dabb/Singer/Nep Duo is amicable towards Jensen or the character he plays. This is more hate-writing a la Mark Sheppard. 

It might be amicable between Jensen and the net work.  We know he has a good relationship with Peter Roth.

But like I said, the odds are probably less than zero.

[Res]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It says "amicable" so not Jensen. Nothing about Dabb/Singer/Nep Duo is amicable towards Jensen or the character he plays. This is more hate-writing a la Mark Sheppard. 

They said the same thing about the Sheppard split until Mark spoke out.

[Maren]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2018/10/18/blind-item-original-cast-member-out-at-long-running-drama-series/#comment-list-wrapper

I know the odds of this being Jensen are zero but if it was it would explain a lot of Dabb's choices this season.

Man, I can hope *insert praying smilie*

I still want him for Marvel. And it's clear there's nothing here for him and will never be anything for him here with Dabb, Buck-Lemming, et al in charge. Hell, even Singer - as much as he supposedly loves Jensen - has no love for him! 

Too bad he never got around to calling I think it was David something? at "Game of Thrones" before that show ended!!

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2018/10/18/blind-item-original-cast-member-out-at-long-running-drama-series/#comment-list-wrapper

I know the odds of this being Jensen are zero but if it was it would explain a lot of Dabb's choices this season.

 

6 hours ago, Res said:

Still praying it is though.

If only...

[ILoveReading]

Last week they gave Sam, Dean's leader ship role.

This week they gave the trauma of possession and the flashbacks, damaged vessel role to Nick.

Dean's apparently immune. 

Makes me think the "Dean doesn't matter" line they gave to Jack was meta.

Sure sounds like it.

Edited October 19, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This week they gave the trauma of possession and the flashbacks, damaged vessel role to Nick.

Dean's apparently immune. 

He looked pretty upset and wiped to me.  We only saw him for 5 to 10 seconds.  Let's see how he acts next week before we assume he's all good.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He looked pretty upset and wiped to me.  We only saw him for 5 to 10 seconds.  Let's see how he acts next week before we assume he's all good.

IMO, that was all Jensen. 

I'm not sure if this is a spoiler or not so I'll tag it just in case. 

Spoiler

There was an article that said that Dean was immune because of all the past trauma and it was like he built up antibodies in his blood.  So it doesn't seem like the show is planning to do much with it. 

They barely told the story as it was.

It was the D plot in the first ep.  Behind, leaderSam, Jack woobieness, and Nick's trauma.

It was the C plot in this ep.  Nick's trauma and Jack's woobieness and then a handful of Michael scenes.

They've done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Last week they gave Sam, Dean's leader ship role.

This week they gave the trauma of possession and the flashbacks, damaged vessel role to Nick.

Dean's apparently immune. 

Makes me think the "Dean doesn't matter" line they gave to Jack was meta.

Sure sounds like it.

They had Dean himself say it in advanced thanatology. I bet they couldn't wait to actually have another character say it out loud. Apparently I really did have to have it beat over my head to finally accept that we are never getting our badass Dean back as long as these showrunners are in charge. I can't keep watching them ruin my favorite character. I just can't.

[Lastcall]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They had Dean himself say it in advanced thanatology. I bet they couldn't wait to actually have another character say it out loud. Apparently I really did have to have it beat over my head to finally accept that we are never getting our badass Dean back as long as these showrunners are in charge. I can't keep watching them ruin my favorite character. I just can't.

Yeah, right now the only thing that could change this is Jensen and he seems to be fine with what has been happening (con complaints aside). It looks like the show can run fine without Dean so it’s time to replay regarding Dean, say goodbye to the most badass character on television and move on.

[devlin]

I can’t believe the writers had a character that’s been on one season  utter the words “dean doesn’t matter”. Fair enough that he wants Michael dead and is willing to kill dean if it comes to it and yeah, dean would be willing to sacrifice himself for the well-being of others but to say dean doesn’t matter is on a whole different level.

Edited October 20, 2018 by devlin
Clarification

[Lemuria]

17 minutes ago, devlin said:

but to say dean doesn’t matter is on a whole different level.

I know.  It reminds me of the "You are no longer part of this story" that we got in "Swan Song," an episode I detested (and still do) with a fiery passion.  That line was one of the reasons.  

Jack's line is yet another reason I'm still not particularly fond of the character.

[ILoveReading]

I wish I could believe that the Michael Dean story line isnt' over.  But I have a feeling it it is.

LOLCanon aside,shouldn't Cas be able to see Michael's true form?  Anael could see it an she's just a regular angel like Cas is.

There is a clear lack of interest behind the scenes. We get two measly episodes of Michael Dean and he wasnt' the focus of either episode.  Of the 4 storylines in the premier his was D plot and the C plot of the of second eps 3 storylines.  It's clear the writers are interested in Lucifer, Sam and Jack with a brief side of Cas.  

So many contradicting stories since comic con. 

The Dean doesn't matter line.   If it wasn't' meta why not give Cas some lines and allow him to defend Dean. 

Spoiler

I was at Jersey and every time Jensen talked about the story he used the past tense.  I was fun or it was challenging.

They were finishing up episode 8 and getting ready to start ep 9.  The mid season finale and Jensen said there was still nothing in the script about any kind of aftermath or physical toll on Dean. 

The synopsis for ep 3 says that searching for what happened to Dean they end up on the same case as Jody.  In the promo, Jody asked Dean if it feels like he was stabbed with a meat fork.  He says yes.  So unless she developed some psychic abilities she probably found a body with the same mark.   Which means this isnt' about Dean.   Since Kaia is in this ep Im guessing she has something to do with it. 

Michael went from the over-arching story of the season to not the primary villain in the space of one episode.

The immune/antibodies nonsense. 

The whole wayward stuff about how they're stories are going to combine which probably makes Michael about the waywards.  That would be something Dabb would do.

There was an article said that the danger is "after the possession."  Another use of the past tense.

So I think we'll get a handful of flashbacks that show that Michael ran into something he couldn't deal with or body hopped because he found a vessel he likes better than Deans.

The writers couldn't answer a simple question about what Deans' role was.

Sure, the setup is there.  but how many times have the writers ignored that.

So, IMO, I'm guessing its will just end u0p on the pile of dropped Dean storylines.

Edited October 20, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Res]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So, IMO, I'm guessing its will just end u0p on the pile of dropped Dean storylines.

Hopefully ending in a killed off Dean so that Jensen can move on to a show that actually appreciate his talents and the character he made into such a legend won't be degraded or ruined anymore.

[DeeDee79]

17 hours ago, devlin said:

I can’t believe the writers had a character that’s been on one season  utter the words “dean doesn’t matter”. Fair enough that he wants Michael dead and is willing to kill dean if it comes to it and yeah, dean would be willing to sacrifice himself for the well-being of others but to say dean doesn’t matter is on a whole different level.

Especially since said character is pretty much a knock off Castiel who defines the word bland IMO.

10 minutes ago, Res said:

Hopefully ending in a killed off Dean so that Jensen can move on to a show that actually appreciate his talents and the character he made into such a legend won't be degraded or ruined anymore.

I know a happy ending is rare for these types of shows but if Dean were to be killed off at the end it would kind of suck out my rewatching enjoyment. 

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Res said:

Hopefully ending in a killed off Dean so that Jensen can move on to a show that actually appreciate his talents and the character he made into such a legend won't be degraded or ruined anymore.

Unfortunately, even if Jensen isn't on the show it still wouldn't stop Dabb from trashing Dean.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Unfortunately, even if Jensen isn't on the show it still wouldn't stop Dabb from trashing Dean.

And he would probably have him either die in Sam's place or to save Sam while saying that Sam's life is worth more. I don't want to see that kind of ending for Dean.

[ILoveReading]

I don' t think anything ERL mentioned in those articles were foilers.

So far everything about the Michael story is half-assed and about everyone expect Dean.   The search for Dean was about 98% done off screen.  He wasnt' the focus of either episode.

If Dabb had long term plans he would have given Jensen direction because he would have needed Michael to behave a certain way.  He said the exact same thing about demon Dean and admitted it was a just a one time thing, not part of a long arc.   The fact that he couldn't speaks volumes about how much he didn't care. 

As to why Michael would pic another vessel (spec not spoiler) was answered loud and clear at the end of this episode with Jack, the writer mouth piece.

Dean doesn't matter.

Dabb makes that message loud and clear. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Spoiler

 

I think the intention in the beginning was a Michael big bad, since Jensen was so excited, this the title card. Then Dabb did what Dabb does for Dabb reasons,  and Jensen's storyline got scuttled. I think Lemming was telling the truth, both in her interviews and in her writing. Dean won't suffer much in the way of repercussion (read: we're not writing anything for him). Havent you heard? Dean doesn't matter. 

The big bad will be one of Dabb's original characters, or Pellegrino. 

 

 

I responded over in spoilers but I'm clearly triggering Bitch/Jerk responses so I'll make the rest of my comments here.  My apologies for those annoyed by the spoiler hider.

Spoiler

 

The logic that they scuttle the Michael storyline to have a Dabb original character or something with Pellegrino, but STILL left the title card basically all Michael symbology, is what I'm getting as a response.  I think the logic is flawed due to the BvJ bias.  For this to be true (that Dabb dropped the Michael storyline), this means that Dabb has blown off his own storyline and instead come up with something new. And this is apparently out of jealousy/hate for Jensen Ackles and/or Dean on the part of Andrew Dabb.  Further, he decided to go ahead and tell everyone he has a new plan and used Eugenia Ross-Lemming (of all people) to deliver this decision via TVLine.  

Let me be crystal clear - I'm not trying to disuade you of your firmly held belief on Dabb's POV.  I'm just saying the BvJ theory for this particular spoiler is a tough sell IMO.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don' t think anything ERL mentioned in those articles were foilers.

So far everything about the Michael story is half-assed and about everyone expect Dean.   The search for Dean was about 98% done off screen.  He wasnt' the focus of either episode.

If Dabb had long term plans he would have given Jensen direction because he would have needed Michael to behave a certain way.  He said the exact same thing about demon Dean and admitted it was a just a one time thing, not part of a long arc.   The fact that he couldn't speaks volumes about how much he didn't care. 

As to why Michael would pic another vessel (spec not spoiler) was answered loud and clear at the end of this episode with Jack, the writer mouth piece.

Dean doesn't matter.

Dabb makes that message loud and clear. 

 

I think fixatingon one line of dialog as a basis for canon proof of 

Spoiler

ERL telling the truth.

is shaky at best.  And at what point did Jack become the writer's mouthpiece?  What other pearls of writer wisdom were delivered by Jack?

Edited October 21, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

I responded over in spoilers but I'm clearly triggering Bitch/Jerk responses so I'll make the rest of my comments here.  My apologies for those annoyed by the spoiler hider.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The logic that they scuttle the Michael storyline to have a Dabb original character or something with Pellegrino, but STILL left the title card basically all Michael symbology, is what I'm getting as a response.  I think the logic is flawed due to the BvJ bias.  For this to be true (that Dabb dropped the Michael storyline), this means that Dabb has blown off his own storyline and instead come up with something new. And this is apparently out of jealousy/hate for Jensen Ackles and/or Dean on the part of Andrew Dabb.  Further, he decided to go ahead and tell everyone he has a new plan and used Eugenia Ross-Lemming (of all people) to deliver this decision via TVLine.  

Let me be crystal clear - I'm not trying to disuade you of your firmly held belief on Dabb's POV.  I'm just saying the BvJ theory for this particular spoiler is a tough sell IMO.

 

 

 

I think fixatingon one line of dialog as a basis for canon proof of 

  Hide contents

ERL telling the truth.

is shaky at best.  And at what point did Jack become the writer's mouthpiece?  What other pearls of writer wisdom were delivered by Jack?

 

Then why not have Cas actually say he does.  Or he's worth enough to try.

If they can fit five pep talks to tell Jack over and over why he matters that can fit one line of dialogue to say Dean does too.

The fact that they let that stand, without contradicting it, speask volumes. 

It's like when Sam said that Dean only scarfices when he doesn't get hurt and the writer of that ep even tweeted Sam was coming from a place of honesty.

So it seems like they put their opinion in the scripts.

Edited October 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why not have Cas actually say he does.  Or he's worth enough to try.

If they can fit five pep talks to tell Jack over and over why he matters that can fit one line of dialogue to say Dean does too.

The fact that they let that stand, without contradicting it, speask volumes. 

It's like when Sam said that Dean only scarfices when he doesn't get hurt and the writer of that ep even tweeted Sam was coming from a place of honesty.

So it seems like they put their opinion in the scripts more than once.

Cas (with incredulity and anger): "And if that means Dean dies too?!"

Cas objected.  Jack was on a rant.  And Jack finished with this is what Dean would want.  Cas WAS silent on that because he knows Jack is right.  Dean WOULD rather be killed than let Michael take a risk.  But literally nothing in all of Cas originally describing the plan, in Cas' body language, in the words Sam said in EP1 about literally doing anything to get Dean back, NOTHING suggests than Sam or Cas think Dean doesn't matter.

One newbie, traumatized by the Apocalypse World, is not the gospel truth OVER the statements of the lead characters. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas (with incredulity and anger): "And if that means Dean dies too?!"

Cas objected.  Jack was on a rant.  And Jack finished with this is what Dean would want.  Cas WAS silent on that because he knows Jack is right.  Dean WOULD rather be killed than let Michael take a risk.  But literally nothing in all of Cas originally describing the plan, in Cas' body language, in the words Sam said in EP1 about literally doing anything to get Dean back, NOTHING suggests than Sam or Cas think Dean doesn't matter.

One newbie, traumatized by the Apocalypse World, is not the gospel truth OVER the statements of the lead characters. 

"But we owe it to him to try."

Maybe someone should have reminded him that Dean sacrificed himself for Jack.  Maybe people need to stop coddling jack and tell him to stop acting like a spoiled brat.

If Dean had that many pity parties, the number of boo hoo speeches he would have had would be too high to count.

The fact that Cas paused made it look liked he agreed with Jack  The argument didn't end with Michael needs to die, it ended on Dean doesn't matter. 

There is no excuse to let those words stand.

It fits with how this show has been writing Dean lately and

Spoiler

How fast they dropped Michael Dean.

Edited October 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If they can fit five pep talks to tell Jack over and over why he matters that can fit one line of dialogue to say Dean does too.

OMG so much word to this. It should have sunken in by now; he's gotten the " you're so good! worthy! amazing!" speech from everyone. I'm over it. I would love to hear Dean get so much praise but apparently it's impossible because "even Dean thinks he's worthless" which I'm getting tired of hearing from part of fandom that excuses the shit writing for him.

[SueB]

@ILoveReading I disagree with your premise (under spoilers) and think further discussion is going to be kinda pointless.  

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

OMG so much word to this. It should have sunken in by now; he's gotten the " you're so good! worthy! amazing!" speech from everyone. I'm over it. I would love to hear Dean get so much praise but apparently it's impossible because "even Dean thinks he's worthless" which I'm getting tired of hearing from part of fandom that excuses the shit writing for him.

Its no longer an acceptable excuse for me.  It's like in e 12.22 when the writer just had Dean emphasize Sam's trauma.  "Dean doesn't think he matters."  With that kind of writing its no wonder because apparently he doesn't.   We're 14 seasons in.  Were is Dean's character growth?  It can't just be Dean being made to learn lesson after lesson about he doesn't treat other people right. 

All that does is reinforce the message.   Dean's rarely shown any compassion.

Ex.  If Dean went blind on a hunt, everyone would fall all over Sam to make sure he was holding up okay.  Dean would get told, suck it up and deal with it.

Spoiler

There are spoilers that Jody has a tender moment with Sam, and Mary has a bonding moment with Sam.  Dean's the one who goes through major trauma, and its ignored because of antibodes/immunity.  All anyone cares about is how Sam's doing.

Edited October 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its no longer an acceptable excuse for me.  It's like in e 12.22 when the writer just had Dean emphasize Sam's trauma.  "Dean doesn't think he matters."  With that kind of writing its no wonder because apparently he doesn't.   We're 14 seasons in.  Were is Dean's character growth?  It can't just be Dean being made to learn lesson after lesson about he doesn't treat other people right. 

All that does is reinforce the message. 

  Hide contents

There are spoilers that Jody has a tender moment with Sam, and Mary has a bonding moment with Sam.  Dean's the one who goes through major trauma, and its ignored because of antibodes/immunity.  All anyone cares about is how Sam's doing.

 

Ex.  If Dean went blind on a hunt, everyone would fall all over Sam to make sure he was holding up okay.  Dean would get told, suck it up and deal with it.

 

And again fandom excuses it because " Dean is closer to Jody but she's Sam's friend too! Why shouldn't she care about him?!" and "Dean got 4 years with Mary! When does Sam get to make memories with her?!" Tons of excuses when it comes to the well being and coddling of every character but Dean because "he's tough! He only cares about Sammy not himself!". Gag. Why can't we get a 12.22 scene for Dean? He's been through just as much if not worse than every other character but he's the only one that doesn't get shown the tiniest bit of empathy on screen or in fandom.

Edited October 21, 2018 by DeeDee79