“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

gonzosgirrl · October 14, 2018

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Isnt that the whole reason she was planning to stay behind. Because they were her people. So her suddenly wanting no responsibility doesn't really make a lot of narrative sense. She seems to be staying at the bunker. What exactly is she doing to search for Dean?

Soooo much this. Another example of the terrible lack of continuity now. I mean, this is not early-episode stuff - it happened last season.

Nothing Mary said or did in 14x01 made me believe she was particularly fussed about Dean, except as it affected her people. Her words to Sam rang hollow.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

o Sam is currently the defacto leader of the hunters because there is no one else to do the job.

Except there was no such vacuum of leadership for human characters because there was no need for hunters to be lead because hunters were mostly solitary and hunted in the shadows and at best they teamed up ad hoc or were family or married like the hunter couple in s3. There was never an army nor even a squad of hunters that required being lead, ot even during the Apocalpyse.

That is until Dabb decided that Sam needed to lead them. Hunters did what they did for so long and did it that way because it was terrifying and horrible awful dangerous job that made hunters unique. And for me, this makes Sam a lot less interesting now. Sorry, Dabb.

What's even more peculiar is that it seems like the only hunters that are in the bunker are the AU characters. Where is space for Walt or Roy, whomever survived? What about Jesse and Cesar? I know they talked about retiring but did they? Poor Eileen.

Did Sam decide to do this organized thing because they were all at war? If so, why not let AU Bobby keep the leadership role since he already knew all those people and was their leader? Hell, why not let Mary lead them?

Why is Sam doing it? I mean it's not like they landed on a different planet and they are even in the midwest. So why is Sam so special here? I would be saying the same thing about Dean, too WRT to that group. Is it because AU Bobby is really kind of a douchebag who abandoned ALL the other people he vowed to go back and save?

IMO it's pretty clearly designed to re-engineer the show into something different and not necessarily something better either. I'll bet you the house, this will end up with General Sam leading a hybrid team of Men of Letters Hunters. (Lunters? Huntels? ), but it's cookie cutter TV crap.

Don't get me wrong. I love the DC shows on the CW but SPN is my departure from that. Arrow is my jam because he's Batman Lite. I love the crossovers too. but I like the smaller Team Arrow with Oliver, Diggle and Felicity with Roy back in the day and occasional help from others. Not 10 people in the Arrowcave. (And I don't like 30 people in the Bunker. Thank gods, Dean built his Deancave....they better not be in there! SAM you best have put that off limits!). Do I want a SuperArrow crossover. You bet. But I don't want SPN to become that permanently.

I have questions too.

Did Sam teach them all to use fake IDs and do they all have Fed Threads now? Or what? I mean there is something good lurking if the FEEB comes back and thinks Sam is running a giant criminal outfit. I would LOVE that actually. But I'm pretty sure that's not what Dabb is going to do, He's morphing this show from being cool and unique into a boring nothing burger.

Edited October 14, 2018 by catrox14

ILoveReading · October 14, 2018

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

The “PSA” was on EW but Hollie Ollis (PR) had to approve it. And she’d have checked with Dabb on the nature of the PSA. And I suspect Dabb would have been delighted. Because it’s funny how myopic the fandom can be.

And my point is that If you value leader over follower, then Sam is less valuable than Dean. And yet Dean was second cast. He was not #1 on the callsheet. Now the boys were cast toghether and are considered co-leads, but Sam playing follower tonDean, given they focused at first in the Sam role, is pretty unusual.

And ‘Chief’ and following orders is NOT bootlicking. People give me similar honorifics consistently. I’ve seen bootlicking, ‘Chief’ is not it. As for Kip -that was undermined as he was supposed to be emulating Crowley.

I don't think Dabb cared a thing about that PSA.

I still dont' get why you keep bring up the call sheet. Its had nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Unless your saying number 2 isn't as valuable as number 1, or that anyone who isn't' number one on the call sheet can't be a dominate character. (again if not that i apologize).

I love Big Bang Theory and I don't think many would argue that Sheldon is the dominate character of that show. But Its' actually Johnny Galecki that listed as number one and Jim Parsons is number two. It has nothing to do with call sheets.

They arent' co-leads. In the fandom hearts, sure, but not on paper. If they were their names would come on screen at the same time. But that should matter when it comes to Dean leading free will, because Sam has his stengths and Dean has his. If Dean's a leader and its acknowledged on screen it doesn't matter what number he is on a call sheet. Because Sam still has his role. They aren't taking away the "brains" role from Sam to push him into the brawn (and I use that term loosely) role.

Not everyone can lead. There has to be followers or nothing would get accomplished. I point to behind the scenes at this show. Dabb may be in charge but he's not a leader. There is none. Everyone just does what they want. They don't care if they contradict each other. There is no communication.

Leaders don't just give orders. They also guide, make hard decisions, inspire and motivate people. They even know when to step back and let someone else take charge. They know their stengths and weaknesses. IMO, this is Dean in a nutshell.

I value all these traits in Dean. that's what I was trying to say, please don't' twist my words.

Edited October 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

And my point is that If you value leader over follower, then Sam is less valuable than Dean. And yet Dean was second cast. He was not #1 on the callsheet. Now the boys were cast toghether and are considered co-leads, but Sam playing follower tonDean, given they focused at first in the Sam role, is pretty unusual.

I'm a little confused about what you are saying here. Sam was cast first. He was the main character. Sam was never a follower*** Sam was a rebel by leaving the family. That's why he butted heads with John. So whether or not Jared is first on the call sheet doesn't change that Sam was the main character initially, but that changed over time and up to Dabb's era, they were basically co-leading characters but Dean's role was supporting Sam. Dean got more of his own under Carver but that was still as much about Sam as it was Dean.

***That is largely why this whole Sam avoided leadership and saying being a follower was easier is 100% created out of thin air to put Sam into this role. I think Dabb did it because that's who he wants Sam to be.

I don't know what it means for Dean yet but it has the potential to be quite bad and not good for the character.

Lastcall · October 14, 2018

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Yup. That's why that montage at the end of Regarding Dean felt like a last hurrah and a good bye. It was.

You’re right that’s the last time she really showed any Dean love or preference. I really think the CW has written this show off and are just going to let it die. They let Dabb squeeze the last drop profit out of the show and are going to let him do anything he wants with the withered corpse for however many episodes are left in this atrocity. The tragedy is this show could have many years ahead of it with a proper show runner and writing staff. Instead we are stuck with this dumpster fire and Dabb’s desperate attempt to prove Sam is the best character. No matter what he does or how badly he tries to ruin the character, Sam will NEVER be more popular than Dean.

Hana Chan · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Bobby probably still feels out of kilter in this world. Mary may not want to lead.

This really isn't a zero sum game. If random character says "love your eyes!" to one brother, this doesn't make the other have hideous, nausea-inducing ugly eyes.

Sam's leading because at this juncture no one else is willing. This doesn't lessen Dean's leadership abilities.

Thank you! This is the exact point. Sam is the right one to be in the leadership role at this point because he's the one best equipped to do the job and because the only other person that also would be best equipped is Michael's prom dress at the moment. I don't see this being a permanent situation and once Dean is freed and gets his emotional feet under him again, the odds are that Sam will give Dean room to lead when his leadership is. RIght now Dean doesn't exist in the game beyond being Michael's meatsuit. He's off the playing field so Sam stepping up to fill the space that Dean has always occupied because he has to.

This is not going to be forever and my hope is that when Dean returns we'll see a more balanced sharing of the burden. Sam stepping up into a greater leadership role will take away some of the burden that Dean has existed under since the series began and maybe let him heal from everything he's endured/done over the decades.

ILoveReading · October 14, 2018

To sum my position up. I want to see Dean acknowledged as a great leader. I want him to be given credit for leading all along.

There are no excuses why it can't be acknowledged both on screen and off. None.

SueB · October 14, 2018

@ILoveReading not sure how I twisted your words but my apologies that I apparently did.

The convesation I thought we were having: Sam gets publicly fawned over as leader and Dean does not. I was saying the ‘fawning’ is a press talking point and not as strong IMO as you perceive.

I think they have, on rare occasions, acknowledged Dean as leader but not the same as what they are doing for Sam. Because it’s fundamental to Dean’s character and a challenge for Sam. Dean leading (superbly) is like breathing for him. Not a stretch. Sam is getting character development in this regard.

To be blunt, is there anything Dean has showed he is challenged to do? He can research if needed but he’d rather Sam did that. But he can do it and we’ve seen it many times. He can cast a spell, speak Latin, etc. What universally ‘positive’ trait is a challenge for Dean that could be a featured character growth?

And yes, to be crystal clear — number one in the call sheet is usually more likely to drive the story. I find Dean drives the plot (through his leadership) more often than not. Sam In S1-5 has the Mystery and Dean was the narrator. Since S6, there’s been a more equal division of ‘what’s wrong with XXX’ (IMO) but they’ve also fallen into the habit that Dean is definitely the leader. And your compare with Sheldon is apt. There’s no spinoff entitled Young XXXXX (Galecki’s character). In fact, I didn’t know Parson’s wasn’t #1 til you said so.

What Im trying to say: Sam’s leadership is a plot point because he hasn’t done it very much and is uncomfortable with it. Frankly, Dean is good at pretty much everything.

Edited October 14, 2018 by SueB

ster1 · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I have no issue with Sam taking responsibility for leading a new group of hunters. The problem is that IMO, Dabb cannot resist trying to turn Sam into Superman!Sam. It started back in Red Meat and he's not really looked back. Dean is not being given that treatment, which if he was, I would hope it would be Batman!Dean cause I like him better. LOL

Dabb's deification of Sam actually goes back further than that. In the comics, Dabb wrote a young Sam as being a more capable hunter than Dean. And in "Form and Void," Sam lectured Dean about valuing human life, figured out how to cure the Darkness plaque despite being sick himself, and single-handedly saved all those infected. I think "Form", "Red Meat", and "Stranger" perfectly encapsulate Dabb's perspective on Sam's character. (And I don't think it's a coincidence that in all those episodes, Dean/Jensen took a backseat with very little to do. )

While Sam has done great under Dabb, Dean has not fared as well. There are no episodes stanning Dean or Dean suddenly embodying new skill sets - just the opposite. Dean's lost traits and skills that used to define his niche on the show. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Dean joined in with the AU hunters to start following Sam's lead. Dean's "trauma" gives Dabb a lot of leeway to keep chipping away at Dean's character.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

5 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Thank you! This is the exact point. Sam is the right one to be in the leadership role at this point because he's the one best equipped to do the job and because the only other person that also would be best equipped is Michael's prom dress at the moment.

Why would AU Bobby abdicate his role when he clearly stated his intention to go back at the end of 13.22? They haven't said anything as to why he's not doing itry, too. He even made a big speech to them and said he was welcoming Sam and Dean to THEIR family. Not the other way around.

Thus far there is no explanation here for removing the already functional leaders of the AU characters, to suddenly not lead their own people. I mean an in-show explanation.

Hana Chan · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Except there was no such vacuum of leadership for human characters because there was no need for hunters to be lead because hunters were mostly solitary and hunted in the shadows and at best they teamed up ad hoc or were family or married like the hunter couple in s3. There was never an army nor even a squad of hunters that required being lead, ot even during the Apocalpyse.

And without being more organized, hunters were easy prey for a variety of enemies. Most recently the BMoL that killed a lot of American hunters before they organized and fought back. The world that these characters exist in is evolving. Hunters from the alternate world had to organize because it was the only way they could survive. It would make no sense for them to disperse and go their separate ways since the threat they are facing (Michael) hasn't gone away - he just changed locations.

I would really like a clear answer from the Dean fans (and I'm asking this in total honesty) on this. I get that many have been waiting a long time for Dean's storyline as Michael's vessel to be fulfilled, but what do they honestly expect for Sam's storyline while this is going on? I'm tired of the resentment that if Dean gets to do A and Sam does B that this is taking something away from Dean. If their situations were reversed and Sam was currently playing prom dress, I would expect Dean to be pulling out all the stops to try to 1) stop whatever was possessing Sam and 2) trying to save his brother. I don't get this apparent upset that Sam is stepping up beyond Jensen playing Michael not getting as much focus as some would like in the first episode.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Why would AU Bobby abdicate his role when he clearly stated his intention to go back at the end of 13.22? They haven't said anything as to why he's not doing itry, too. He even made a big speech to them and said he was welcoming Sam and Dean to THEIR family. Not the other way around.

Bobby isn't a lead character. Sam and Dean are. And Bobby is now in their world, living in their base of operations.

Again, this anger that Sam is taking the lead in the mission to 1) save Dean and 2) stop Michael (until Dean is freed to help) doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Dean can't be leader right now so why shouldn't Sam take over for the moment? For all the complaints that Sam hadn't stepped up over the years and put too much of a burden on Dean, why shouldn't he do so now? Dean can't and shouldn't be expected to do everything all the time.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I would really like a clear answer from the Dean fans (and I'm asking this in total honesty) on this. I get that many have been waiting a long time for Dean's storyline as Michael's vessel to be fulfilled, but what do they honestly expect for Sam's storyline while this is going on?

For Sam's SL to be about finding Dean and only finding Dean. I am dead serious. He didn't do it in s8, regardless of the reasons, and he sort of apologized for it in s11. He went to great lengths to find demon!Dean so why wouldn't he do the same with Michael!Dean?

Show Sam out summoning angels, demons, monsters to ask what they know, and show Michael finding those same characters and asking them what they want after Sam talks to them or make it coincidence. Set up a big showdown between Michael!Dean and Sam. That's a SL all of it's own.

Show him going to those lengths instead of the IMO Lip service to "I would do anything". SHOW HIM doing anything. Show him being close to making desperate deals. Show Sam and Rowena working together to find them. Show him on his hands and knees praying to Chuck and Amara for help. I mean he prayed to Jack in s13 after all. Show Cas and Sam working together or planning together what they will do to find him. Don't send Cas off to Detroit just to be demon fodder for no good reason. And no I don't consider Sam yelling at them about having no King of Hell to be a good enough reason AT THAT POINT of the story.

Show Sam burning the Lucifer vessel to make sure it can't be used again. Give him the grief on screen. Not a grief beard 3 weeks later that means nothing to me. It only showed that Sam is this uber tired put upon leader who is torn between leading people that already had a leader and looking for Dean, when there were leaders already there that did the job well enough in the AW to keep them all alive.

Once Dean is back, have Dean decide he just wants to hunt alone for awhile like he did back in s1 and then have Sam take over for AU Bobby.

Hunters having an organization like we see now, was not going to help them. I mean it put them all in one place FFS and look how easy it was for AU Michael to blow past the warding. Why would they all stay there and think it's safe from him?

There was loose organization wherein OGBobby was a point man for many of them and then Garth being the new Bobby. If they had shown Sam organizing them with the sole mission to find Michael!Dean that I could have understood. And it's not like these 25 people are the ONLY hunters in America now. Pretty sure the BMOL didn't kill all of them.

What I never expected and probably should have was for Sam to be so dispassionate about finding Dean and them not saying it's because he's scared he'll go down a dark path to save him. I mean maybe he made some such commentary but I don't remember it being said and sadly, I don't think it was in the subtext either.

Edited October 14, 2018 by catrox14

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

Oh and another thing.

Mary saying "I know it's been 3 weeks" . THREE WEEKS is not a long time when the person you supposedly love most in the world has been kidnapped by an archangel. I mean sheesh.

That is barely a drop in a bucket, so think about it. It's 21 days. That's barely enough time to break or learn a new habit. If they had said 3 months....well maybe I could see Sam moving on to being General Sam over the AU Hunters...but THREE WEEKS? Fuck that.

Demon!Dean was gone 4 weeks and Sam was still looking for him. LOL Sigh...

ETA: I also don't think Dabb is intending Sam's focus on the hunters as a bad thing. I think he'll position it as "That's what Dean would have wanted"......well yes, if Dean was confirmed dead. But that wasn't the case, unless Sam just gave up on trying to find him or left it to Cas.

I could even live with Sam having said "I spent 24/7 for 3 weeks trying to find him and got nothing". Hell, I would have rather seen Sam in Georgia doing what ever he was doing. I would hope though that he wouldn't have spent 3 weeks on one lead but at least give us that bit.

Edited October 14, 2018 by catrox14

Bergamot · October 14, 2018

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Except there was no such vacuum of leadership for human characters because there was no need for hunters to be lead because hunters were mostly solitary and hunted in the shadows and at best they teamed up ad hoc or were family or married like the hunter couple in s3. There was never an army nor even a squad of hunters that required being lead, ot even during the Apocalpyse.

That is until Dabb decided that Sam needed to lead them. Hunters did what they did for so long and did it that way because it was terrifying and horrible awful dangerous job that made hunters unique. And for me, this makes Sam a lot less interesting now. Sorry, Dabb.

Yes! Catrox, this is a good point, and I agree. Dabb has been working on making the hunters on the show into a military team that need a military leader, rather than the solitary, tormented, shadowy individuals they started out as, just so that he could write episodes like this last one. He has a very specific idea of what he wants his Heroes to be, and he wants them to be like something out of a generic military thriller. For him, heroes are men that have a big reputation and carry big guns, and go around telling people it is their job to save the world, and everyone is impressed by them. They deal with threats to the United States President and they break out of secret military installations. They make big speeches to their team and then lead them on Special Forces raids where they mow people down with semi-automatic weapons and blow up buildings. It doesn't really have anything to do with where Supernatural came from and what made it a great show, and unfortunately it is something I find as dull as dishwater.

This latest episode was just a continuation of this trend. As far as the main story of the episode, you could remove everything supernatural from it and it wouldn't really change anything. Sam is shaping his rag-tag team into a para-military group to take out threats to the nation. One of his men is kidnapped and held hostage by members of an international crime syndicate, and it turns out that their leader wants to be the new mob boss and wants to use Sam to get what he wants. (The fact that the the crime syndicate is composed of demons is completely irrelevant, considering that their climactic confrontation consists of fighting with guns and knives and fists, supernatural powers apparently not required.)

Just as with the lack of focus on the Michael!Dean storyline, there was no intrinsic requirement or necessity that the episode be written around Sam showing off his leadership skills. This is the story that Dabb decided to tell; he could have written a totally different story that didn't even include the AU hunters. He could have written that they had found a way back to their own universe, if he wanted to. Dabb wrote the story this way because this is the story he wanted to tell; if you like it, good for you. I don't, though.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He's morphing this show from being cool and unique into a boring nothing burger.

Yes, I'm afraid that about sums it up.

AwesomO4000 · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He went to great lengths to find demon!Dean so why wouldn't he do the same with Michael!Dean?

Show Sam out summoning angels, demons, monsters to ask what they know, and show Michael finding those same characters and asking them what they want after Sam talks to them or make it coincidence. Set up a big showdown between Michael!Dean and Sam. That's a SL all of it's own.

Show him going to those lengths instead of the IMO Lip service to "I would do anything". SHOW HIM doing anything. Show him being close to making desperate deals. Show Sam and Rowena working together to find them. Show him on his hands and knees praying to Chuck and Amara for help...

My opinion: Because that is more a Dean thing according to the show. Dean can save Sam and do whatever he wants to in order to do that - like lie about Gadreel being in Sam and killing Death - and that's generally seen as something Dean can do, but if Sam does it, he ends up acting "worse than a demon" and starts an apocalypse. For me this has just been the way the show seems to have leaned since the beginning.

Sam has generally been the character who has gone a bit dark, a bit too far to get things done, and in my opinion the writing has generally shown this. It does not have the same leanings with Dean. Dean can go to great lengths to save Sam, but as far as the show is concerned Dean can do this without "going dark." With Sam: no. Almost every time we see Sam do what he thinks has to be done to save Dean, bad things happen, even starting way back in season 1 actually with "Faith." I mean sure when Dean made the deal, he went to hell, but nothing happened to anyone else, to other innocent people. But from the first time we saw Sam save Dean or consider saving Dean in desperation, there were either indirect consequences to innocent people ("Faith"), it was implied that eventually there likely would be ("Mystery Spot" and "Time is on My Side"), or Sam outright was willing to risk and/or sacrifice people in order to get Dean back (season 10.)

The show may have Dean talk about Dean being afraid of the lengths he'll go to save Sam, but the point is that Dean does wonder and worry, whereas Sam is actually the character the show generally shows those consequences with. And I think that's a conscious choice based on how the show sees the characters.

Even one of the two times*** that Dean's actions to save Sam had consequences for innocent people (primarily Kevin, but there were also some angel meatsuits), the writers softened that considerably (in my opinion) by having good consequences. Even Kevin dying was softened immensely by having 1) ghost Kevin point out the problems with the veil so that could be addressed 2) having ghost Kevin be crucial to saving his mother from tortuous confinement and inevitable death and 3) Ghost Kevin getting first to be back with his mother for a while and then get a direct onscreen acknowledgement of his happy ending and final well-deserved eternal rest in heaven. Compare that to Charlie's death, where there was zero attempt to make that anything but a huge, awful consequence.

The unfortunate thing is that the show can't seem to let Sam go halfway either. In season 8, Carver couldn't let Sam even try in a non-destructive way to look for Dean. It had to be nope, Sam just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. And of course that was considered wrong by the show also.

You asked why Sam wasn't praying to Chuck and Amara to find Dean... My opinion: once bitten twice shy. The last time Sam prayed to Chuck to save Dean, he ended up getting Lucifer. That's probably why he prayed to Jack instead, actually. Sam pretty much knows Chuck doesn't really listen to him. And Amara certainly wouldn't. I'm actually not surprised that Sam is finally having faith issues, because in general he doesn't seem to have much luck in that department. Of course it's one of Sam's few things left, so I'm kind of sad that they are apparently taking it away from him, but I guess I get it.

*** The second time was "Appointment in Samarra," but I would argue that Dean's decisions there that lead to innocents getting killed had less to do with "saving Sam" than his want to save everybody and fight fate. Dean could have done that task for Death and still have saved Sam without innocent people having consequences. And his decisions that affected the innocent people didn't have to do with Sam but Dean's own philosophy. So not directly related to saving Sam per se.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I mean maybe he made some such commentary but I don't remember it being said and sadly, I don't think it was in the subtext either.

I think Sam's comment that he would do anything if it would get Dean back is subtext - well actually text I guess - that the same opinion concerning Sam's tendencies to go dark is still there and that maybe Sam hasn't consciously learned much in terms of saving Dean.

Maybe the fact that Sam is busying himself with all these other things is his attempt - maybe subconsciously - to not go too far this time. "Okay, I can look for Dean, but then I have to step back just a little bit so I won't go too far." Maybe that is Sam's "growth" even if it's maybe not a very attractive looking one. Because I pretty much think the show writers just can't see Sam saving Dean from anything major without it equaling Sam going overboard and bad things happening... Because they do happen, almost every time.

I think it's like my personal theory for one of the factors leading to Eckbom's Syndrome (Eckbom's Syndrome is something I deal with in my job - people who are convinced that they and their home are infested with bugs, but there are no bugs, and almost no amount of evidence can convince them there are no bugs.) It's a way for the people suffering from this syndrome to have something else to focus on - constantly having to battle the bugs with over-the-top cleaning - rather than whatever crisis happened in their life that they can't or don't want to deal with (because often there is a traumatic life experience or life change that precedes the behavior).

Maybe Sam throwing himself into this leadership role and telling himself he has to do it is partly a way to keep himself from getting too consumed with finding Dean and once again going dark, even if he can't entirely see that. I actually hope it's something like this, because to me that would make sense - not only for the story, but for the way the narrative has seemed to see Sam in the past.

Edited October 14, 2018 by AwesomO4000

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My opinion: Because that is more a Dean thing according to the show. Dean can save Sam and do whatever he wants to in order to do that - like lie about Gadreel being in Sam and killing Death - and that's generally seen as something Dean can do, but if Sam does it, he ends up acting "worse than a demon" and starts an apocalypse. For me this has just been the way the show seems to have leaned since the beginning.

The show has the opportunity to show Sam going to a point and reasoning out why he might choose what he chooses. They don't have to have Sam "worse than a demon" sidebar: that was demon!Dean who said it, so is his word the complete factual truth on it? I don't think so. It was factual that Sam got Lester involved but it's not factual that it was worse than a demon. Lester made his own choice. And the intention behind demon!Dean's words was to hurt Sam and throw him off his game to beat him. To poke at Sam's insecurities as much as anything else.

I could have even lived with Sam being reluctant to find Michael!Dean if he thought Michael would kill Dean...just like Dean was worried about with Gadreel. I don't care if it would be a rehash but it would give a chance for Sam to understand Dean's motives more and for Dean to see the pain it caused Sam( not that I thought Dean didn't know but for you know..some kind of narrative symmetry, I guess for lack of a better word).

As for extreme measures that might have world wrecking consequences, Dean took the risk to trust Michael. He did it for love....of Sam, Jack/Cas (and the world at large, but I think it's clear the narrative is not including that). Why wouldn't Sam do all he could out of love for Dean, Cas/Jack who love Dean, well Cas for sure, and the rest of the world to save it from whatever Michael is planning?

I can't say where there would be "blame" or negative fallout on Sam. At this point, to me if Sam isn't doing more because he doesn't trust himself, puts his own issues over the world, unless Sam thinks his choices would do more damage than Michael!Dean might do. What would be worse? Letting OG Michael possess him? Letting Lucifer in?

Hana Chan · October 14, 2018

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why wouldn't Sam do all he could out of love for Dean,

Sam did that once before. When he went after Lilith because she killed his brother and send his soul to Hell. And we all saw what happened after that.

The problem is that Sam cannot win with some viewers. No matter what he does, it either won't be enough or it will be too much or it won't be the right thing at the right time. He will always be wrong, and always taking something away from Dean. If he acts as a leader, he's trying to take Dean's place. If he steps back to let Dean lead, then he's putting too much of a burden on Dean. If he tries to have relationships outside of his relationship with Dean, then he's not showing Dean the kind of love and devotion that Dean deserves, but he mustn't feel insecure about Dean's relationships.

I get that there are some fans who watch for Dean, Dean alone and anything that doesn't immediately center around Dean holds no interest to them. Castiel is important because his relationship with humans is primarily through his bond with Dean. With the sole exception of Gordon, all of his relationships are positive ones while Sam's are always in question. Dean's friend is a vampire? No problem. Sam has his life saved by a kitsune, she can't be given the benefit of the doubt and is killed by Dean. As someone who loves both brothers even though I like and sympathize with Sam just a bit more, it's tiring to constantly argue for a more balanced view where both brothers are allowed to get the occasional win and that Sam getting seen in a positive light once in awhile doesn't mean that the show sees Dean as garbage.

Aeryn13 · October 14, 2018

While the characters were nominally trying to find Dean, the episode didn't show his value at all. Sam didn't struggle at being a leader, he was pimped as super-great at it.

It's is truly like Dabb said, now that pesky Dean is gone, the characters are doing actually great. So Dean being gone is really a positive thing for them.

To show Dean truly missing, the Bunker shouldn't have been a well-oiled hunting machine and then at the end Sam is pimped to the high heavens.

What this episode has been showing is that Dean's contributions to the show and hunting are worthless because anyone can do wonderfully without him.

They may look for him but certainly not because they truly need him in their lifes for anything. That means the stage is set for Dean to be superflouus when he gets back.

I wanted the Michael storyline to highlight something positive about Dean but it is clear it will be doing the opposite. They will use it to show Dean is weak and unnecessary.

Hana Chan · October 14, 2018

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

While the characters were nominally trying to find Dean, the episode didn't show his value at all. Sam didn't struggle at being a leader,

So Sam not sleeping, not eating and chasing down leads physically himself while managing the searches that he's got other hunters and allies doing isn't proof that he cares about Dean for Dean's sake? That the only thing that would make Dean's value to everyone apparent is for them to be totally falling apart at the seams and unable to function without Dean?

Sam has Ketch looking or the device that allowed them to force Lucifer out without killing his vessel - not something that will kill an archangel without concern for the body. That certainly doesn't sound like him not caring primarily about Dean's welfare.

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They may look for him but certainly not because they truly need him in their lifes for anything.

They don't have to need Dean for anything beyond that they love him and want him to be safe. For me, that's the most important thing.

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wanted the Michael storyline to highlight something positive about Dean but it is clear it will be doing the opposite. They will use it to show Dean is weak and unnecessary.

Dean being Michael's vessel is likely to be no more "positive" for his character, at least in the short term, than Sam's was being Lucifer's vessel. Angels are not acting on behalf of the human race and being the physical form that allows Michael to commit genocide is not evidence of Dean's "worth". His worth will prove itself - again - when he kicks Michael to the curb out of love for his family and friends and because he won't allow himself to be used to kill the human race. This was the primary reason why I wasn't enthusiastic about this storyline. Not because I don't want to see anything centering around Dean, but after the Deanmon storyline and the MoC, Dean's already been through the mytharc wringer. I'd like to see a storyline where he actually can benefit and grow from it, not just have another chapter in the trauma conga line.

Aeryn13 · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

So Sam not sleeping, not eating and chasing down leads physically himself while managing the searches that he's got other hunters and allies doing isn't proof that he cares about Dean for Dean's sake? That the only thing that would make Dean's value to everyone apparent is for them to be totally falling apart at the seams and unable to function without Dean?

Sam has Ketch looking or the device that allowed them to force Lucifer out without killing his vessel - not something that will kill an archangel without concern for the body. That certainly doesn't sound like him not caring primarily about Dean's welfare.

They don't have to need Dean for anything beyond that they love him and want him to be safe. For me, that's the most important thing.

For me it's the opposite. They didn't need to fail all over the place but it didn't need to be super-smooth running either.

And Sam being so amazingly effective while sleep-deprived just makes Sam greater. He is sad but it doesn't aversely effect him at all, meaning he is so innately awesome at leadership, it comes to him in his sleep.

Zero about this is why Dean's absence leaves a void for others. It carries more the message that all those characters would be doing fine and Dean really is just a useless burden. Oh but they love him and I'm supposed to squee over that? It's the epitome of what I don't want.

I'd much rather he was shown as valuable.

Dean won't kick Michael out, not under Dabb. He will be useless at fighting him and I bet they will even bring in a 5.22 comparism where they put it in text that Sam is strong but Dean is too weak to do it. Then he will be a passive by-stander while Sam saves him. And then a useless weakling in hunts where the AU hunters can marvel that their Chief has such a worthless brother. Sam of course will be feeling pity. Calling that now.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Aeryn13

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

14 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Sam did that once before. When he went after Lilith because she killed his brother and send his soul to Hell. And we all saw what happened after that.

Seems to me if Sam is going to experience character growth, he at some point, will need to make choices that might scare him. I don't find his past to be a compelling reason for Sam to not go all out here TBH.

This is a completely different situation. In s4, Sam thought he was all alone. He disregarded Bobby. He also had powers then. He doesn't anymore AFAIK. Sam has Mary, Not Bobby, Cas and Jack and some, I would hope, wisdom to know the difference between then and now.

In s4, he tried to make deals but no one would and Ruby manipulated him. In this case, Sam knows exactly what happened to Dean. He knew he wasn't dead. Sam knows which enemy has Dean. He knows what it's like to be possessed by an Archangel. He isn't having sex and drinking demon blood to get stronger. It's nothing like the situation with Lilith.

That said, even if Sam was scared he was going to do terrible things, that would a key thing to show on screen. To have Sam talk to Cas about his fears, because Cas was there for all that. As Dean said "Be specific, man" - me to Andrew Dabb. I want to hear Sam say that's what he's afraid of in no uncertain terms. And then I want Cas or even Sam reason out for himself that it's not the same circumstance and that he shouldn't let that fear get in his way. If he has the confidence to shout at demons about "No new King of Hell" , shouldn't he have some self confidence that he will be okay and not go down a dark path.

Hana Chan · October 14, 2018

Right now there's nothing concrete that Sam can or can't do that would be "going too far" that we saw in the first ep. We just have Sam's statement that there is nothing he wouldn't do in trying to save Dean. We're going to have to see if something presents itself or he discovers something that would be crossing that kind of event horizon, like Lucifer popping up and looking for his proper vessel again.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a completely different situation. In s4, Sam thought he was all alone. He disregarded Bobby. He also had powers then. He doesn't anymore AFAIK. Sam has Mary, Not Bobby, Cas and Jack and some, I would hope, wisdom to know the difference between then and now.

That's exactly it. Sam isn't alone anymore, which is a good thing. He not only has a support network that he didn't have back when Lilith killed Dean, but he has other people that he feels responsible for. But even with that he's expressed that his priority is saving Dean and he would do whatever it took. We're going to have to wait to see just what kind of a choice he's going to have to make when the moment presents itself.

SueB · October 14, 2018

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While the characters were nominally trying to find Dean, the episode didn't show his value at all. Sam didn't struggle at being a leader, he was pimped as super-great at it.

It's is truly like Dabb said, now that pesky Dean is gone, the characters are doing actually great. So Dean being gone is really a positive thing for them.

To show Dean truly missing, the Bunker shouldn't have been a well-oiled hunting machine and then at the end Sam is pimped to the high heavens.

What this episode has been showing is that Dean's contributions to the show and hunting are worthless because anyone can do wonderfully without him.

They may look for him but certainly not because they truly need him in their lifes for anything. That means the stage is set for Dean to be superflouus when he gets back.

I wanted the Michael storyline to highlight something positive about Dean but it is clear it will be doing the opposite. They will use it to show Dean is weak and unnecessary.

By who? Who, exactly, pimped Sam as a great leader?

Kip? Kip gave a Crowley impersonation and talked hair and shoulders.

Mary? Mary told him to get some rest?

They followed his orders. That’s not ‘pimping’ IMO.

What I saw:

- Sam tried to delegate to Maggie for the cameras but can’t because he hads’t trained her (or anyone else) on that skill. And he just proceeded to do it himself rather than have anyone follow along. Rookie error as a leader. You take a moment to teach that stuff. The timeline split was 2005 — surely they knew how to use computers?

- Only Sam can put hydrogen peroxide on Nick’s wound? Delegate that shit.

- Sam sent EVERYONE on a vamp hunt. Was that really the priority?

- Sam took Maggie along (before Jack volunteered). She has very limited skills.

- Sam has run himself ragged. Again, rookie mistake.

I’m pretty sure the ‘attack’ plan was to have Maggie and Jack get caught as a distraction from Bobby and Mary. Okay. But that’s a little dark using those two as bait.

Maybe I’ve forgotten some speech but I remember Bobby questioning his choices.

Was Mary’s nod of approval the ‘fawning with praise’?

AwesomO4000 · October 14, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

They don't have to have Sam "worse than a demon" sidebar: that was demon!Dean who said it, so is his word the complete factual truth on it? I don't think so. It was factual that Sam got Lester involved but it's not factual that it was worse than a demon. Lester made his own choice. And the intention behind demon!Dean's words was to hurt Sam and throw him off his game to beat him. To poke at Sam's insecurities as much as anything else.

If I remember correctly, that was the writer intention as well in terms of what they were saying about the upcoming season. From the very first scene of season 10 we had this tease. I that first scene we had the crossroads demon - who is in an innocent person and who is obviously being interrogated - asking "I heard the rumors. I said 'no, that can't be.' A Winchester, one of us? But it's true, isn't it? Whatever soul you had; whatever boy scout code you cuddled up to at night; it's all gone. Leaving what? Look at you!" And when the camera pulls back, it's not Dean, but Sam she is talking about. So this is something the show was highlighting from the very beginning of the season, and was - in my opinion - part of the narrative all the way through the season as Sam got more insistent on saving Dean and using the Book of the Damned to do so despite all the warnings he got.

As for the show not having Sam "worse than a demon," as I said above, I don't think they can do it. It seems to be their modus operandi concerning Sam. And during the Carver era, they even threw in all of this random stuff - like that town of 2000+ being killed offscreen - just to make sure we understand that when Sam saves Dean, he goes "dark" and causes tons or repercussions. That just seems to me to be what the writers do. Don't ask me why, because I couldn't say.

So them - so far - not having Sam do that, for me, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me if Sam is going to experience character growth, he at some point, will need to make choices that might scare him. I don't find his past to be a compelling reason for Sam to not go all out here TBH.

That happened in season 10, in my opinion, and those past consequences I think should be a compelling enough reason for Sam to be worried about going all out in my opinion.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I could have even lived with Sam being reluctant to find Michael!Dean if he thought Michael would kill Dean...just like Dean was worried about with Gadreel. I don't care if it would be a rehash but it would give a chance for Sam to understand Dean's motives more

We already got that with season 10 which was mainly about Sam uderstanding Dean's motives with regards to Gadreel.

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's is truly like Dabb said, now that pesky Dean is gone, the characters are doing actually great. So Dean being gone is really a positive thing for them.

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Zero about this is why Dean's absence leaves a void for others. It carries more the message that all those characters would be doing fine and Dean really is just a useless burden.

So everyone has to be an incompetent mess because Dean is elsewhere? I agree with Hana Chan that that isn't necessary. And when has Sam been gone before where Dean is shown as being "incompetent" or even worse off? In "Free to Be You and Me" not only was Dean seemingly hunting just fine, he was actually having a good time with Castiel - who as he said he had more fun with than he had with Sam in years - and only got sad really when Castiel had to leave. Dean and Castiel handled Raphael just fine without Sam, and sure Dean was sad at the end of the episode, but he was otherwise doing functioning well. Ditto with Benny and purgatory. Dean was doing just fine without Sam.

So why should it be so different the other way around? Why does Sam have to be unable to handle himself when Dean is gone?

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, even if Sam was scared he was going to do terrible things, that would a key thing to show on screen. To have Sam talk to Cas about his fears, because Cas was there for all that. As Dean said "Be specific, man" - me to Andrew Dabb. I want to hear Sam say that's what he's afraid of in no uncertain terms.

No everything everyone does is something they are actively thinking about, especially under bad situations or stress. As I said maybe part of what Sam is doing is subconscious.

Quote

And then I want Cas or even Sam reason out for himself that it's not the same circumstance and that he shouldn't let that fear get in his way. If he has the confidence to shout at demons about "No new King of Hell" , shouldn't he have some self confidence that he will be okay and not go down a dark path.

No, because self-confidence doesn't seem to work that way for Sam apparently. The writers seem to think it's a bad thing for Sam, because usually when Sam is confident, things go terribly wrong - like the end of last season and the vampire incident.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

4 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

hat's exactly it. Sam isn't alone anymore, which is a good thing. He not only has a support network that he didn't have back when Lilith killed Dean, but he has other people that he feels responsible for. But even with that he's expressed that his priority is saving Dean and he would do whatever it took. We're going to have to wait to see just what kind of a choice he's going to have to make when the moment presents itself.

Sam was off chasing a lead but he clearly had some time to establish his leadership such that the AU Hunters are calling him Chief and Sir. Unless of course, he just got that honorific for...reasons. I would hope he had earned it.

The AW 25 are a fully functional group of adults and young adults (no children that I saw) who are experienced rebels and soldiers who fought against Michael in the AW. I don't know why he would feel so responsible for them that he can't go all out to find Dean. I'm a little lost on that part of your rationale.

I don't know why wouldn't he be using them to find Dean, whether they like it or not. He's giving them access to the bunker. If Dean was the first and only priority, and they don't want to help him, send them packing. That would show me that finding Dean was his absolute priority.

Mary should be the one taking responsibility for those people. She is the one that talked Sam and Dean into bringing them across. Sam said they could be trained and then go back. And guess what. They aren't doing that either.

I am not hating on Sam here. I think it's a failure in the writing because Dabb is doing far too much ensemble building. Sam is their leader and he could easily have the entire team doing nothing but work the Michael!Dean case. Not hunting. I don't believe that is what has happened.

Now, if they had a twist where there was some dissension in the ranks and Sam is worried they would kill Dean if they found Michael or not care if he dies, then I can believe Sam is trying to protect Dean from them. But again, I don't think that has been shown to be the case.

It's leaving me not feeling particularly good about Sam's priorities.

Katy M · October 14, 2018

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam was off chasing a lead but he clearly had some time to establish his leadership such that the AU Hunters are calling him Chief and Sir. Unless of course, he just got that honorific for...reasons. I would hope he had earned it.

ARe these the AU hunters? he may have "earned" it simply by being the main one (still around as Dean isn't) from the team that brought them over to our universe. Have I mentioned how much I hate the bunker full of hunters? I mean, I know I have, but if I haven't done it a million times yet it doesn't count. Because I really really really hate it.

Lastcall · October 14, 2018

50 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I get that there are some fans who watch for Dean, Dean alone and anything that doesn't immediately center around Dean holds no interest to them. Castiel is important because his relationship with humans is primarily through his bond with Dean. With the sole exception of Gordon, all of his relationships are positive ones while Sam's are always in question. Dean's friend is a vampire? No problem. Sam has his life saved by a kitsune, she can't be given the benefit of the doubt and is killed by Dean. As someone who loves both brothers even though I like and sympathize with Sam just a bit more, it's tiring to constantly argue for a more balanced view where both brothers are allowed to get the occasional win and that Sam getting seen in a positive light once in awhile doesn't mean that the show sees Dean as garbage.

The problem is we had the show runner say he had to get rid of Dean for the other characters to breath. He created an arc to finally get rid of Dean and show how everyone is so much better and more capable with him gone. It makes Dabb look petty and vengeful against Dean fans. It looks like he is penalizing Jensen/Dean for stealing the spotlight and having better chemistry with virtually anyone he works with. He is treating Jensen/Dean as the enemy instead of the main reason the show is still on the air.

Try flipping the situation, say Carver came back and devoted an entire season to showing how better Dean is with out his brother. How the only reason he isn’t the greatest hunter in history is because Sam has been an anchor around his neck and how much better Dean is without him. How he thrived in Purgatory because he wasn’t burdened by Sam. Have Sam completely removed from the show and then show how great everything is because he is gone. Don’t tell me the Sam fans wouldn’t be just as pissed, they still resent season 8 and 9.

I wouldn’t even mind if that was what Dabb was doing, showing that the brothers are better apart then together due to their co-dependency. At least it would show Dean as competent and not the slovenly clown they’ve been pitching for 3 years.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We already got that with season 10 which was mainly about Sam uderstanding Dean's motives with regards to Gadreel.

And why not build on that with a character who is arguably even more powerful than demon!Dean with Michael?

I'm just not seeing much value for Sam to be in this position where it appears that Dean isn't really his big priority. Even if Sam didn't want to do it for Dean reasons, he knows the threat that Michael poses. So from even a hunter perspective, Michael should be the only thing they are hunting.

I won't be surprised that Sam will be right to have the hunting going because that's probably how they will learn about Michael's vamp plan, unless Sister Jo tells Sam about Michael's plan with the vampires, which who knows with her. Maybe she's setting him up for a trap, or she's on Sam's side. I don't think that's clear yet.

I just feel that there was a clear lack of "woe" about Dean being going and that's a big fail for me in the writing and the acting aside from Cas looking pretty weary and desperate. But that's all my opinion and others will disagree.

ILoveReading · October 14, 2018

As it stands now, all I see when Dean is coming back and clogging things up. It seems like nothing would improve if he comes back.

Like @Aeryn13 said, I want to see Dean being missing as valuable. I wanted to see that things would improve if he came back. He wouldnt even make things easier for poor poor put upon Sam because he'll just be someoen else that Sam has to take care of.

It didnt' even need to be Sam burning the candle at both ends. Because what exactly are Mary and Bobby doing. DM'ing each other about how much they heart various things? They could have dealt with the AU hunters.

Things don't need to competley fall about but they could show Sam struggling with some things. They didn't. They showed him being perfect at everything.

One thing, they could have done. An AU hunter could have needed advice on how to deal with some kind of monster. Sam says something like, "My brother Dean hunted that once and he dealt with it by doing XYZ. He's great at finding out of the box solutions."

Or another example is that scene in Scarecrow when Dean's in the diner and trying to get the couple to listen. He says "if my brother was here you'd listen." Of course things weren't completely falling apart but that one little line lets the audience know that things would be better with Sam around.

I wanted to see them talk about Dean. Or even do what Ross Lemming said and not drive the car. Or have an AU hunter try to take the keys to Impala and Sam telling them right where to go because that's Dean's car. Or when they were all sitting at the end, bring up something about Dean's the best cook or have them realize there was no beer becasue Dean wasnt' there to buy it.

They don't have to burn down the bunker but things don't need to be running as smoothly as they were.

gonzosgirrl · October 14, 2018

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

By who? Who, exactly, pimped Sam as a great leader?

Kip? Kip gave a Crowley impersonation and talked hair and shoulders.

Mary? Mary told him to get some rest?

They followed his orders. That’s not ‘pimping’ IMO.

You can say Kip was giving a Crowley imitation, but he was still treating Sam as a superior being, and the words were what they were.

Mary showed more compassion for Sam and his beard than she has in two full seasons toward Dean.

The AU people are calling him Chief and sir, without a trace of irony.

I would love to see Dean not pimped in this way.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

ARe these the AU hunters? he may have "earned" it simply by being the main one (still around as Dean isn't) from the team that brought them over to our universe. Have I mentioned how much I hate the bunker full of hunters? I mean, I know I have, but if I haven't done it a million times yet it doesn't count. Because I really really really hate it.

AFAIK, the only people in the bunker are the AU refugees who Sam is training to be hunters. I don't think they were hunters in the AU but soldiers and rebel force.

If it was the existing hunters from the existing hunter community, I don't know why they would be in the bunker too when they all likely have their own bases, so to speak. Unless Sam opened it up for every hunter and that's why I asked about Jesse and Cesar.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wanted to see them talk about Dean. Or even do what Ross Lemming said and not drive the car.

This brings up something that confuses me. RL said Sam wouldn't drive the Impala. Was she lying or just plain wrong and they changed their minds? That just shows me that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing in that production.

companionenvy · October 14, 2018

Coming back to this thread because I don't want to risk B/J in the episode thread...

I can sort of understand the complaint that Sam was a little too badass in this episode, but as he was pretty much useless for most of last season, I don't see that as a major offense against Dean. Sam's last attempt at leadership was a total failure in which he himself wound up dead. I don't see any problem with having him, rather than Mary or Bobby, stepping up - he's one of the two leads.

What I don't find in this episode is any evidence that Sam isn't doing everything he can to try to find Dean. How authentic one finds his grief is a matter of interpretation, but it is explicit in the episode that Sam has just returned from pursuing a lead on Dean, and has Ketch following up on another. It seems fairly clear from context that it isn't as if he was twiddling his thumbs for two weeks and four days before half-heartedly going off to Atlanta or wherever they said he was, either: the lead he was following seemed like pretty weak stuff. He's been grasping at straws and chasing at shadows.

I just really don't see what more Sam could or should be doing here, short of doing precisely the kinds of things that have gotten him in major, major trouble before, like working with demons. Which, by the way, we haven't ascertained he wouldn't be willing to do; it just hasn't come up yet, and there's no indication that a demon deal or going to hell or whatever other demonstration of loyalty would be deemed sufficient evidence of Sam's concern would even do any good here. Even for the Winchesters, this is actually uncharted territory, as when Sam was possessed by an archangel, it was something he had consented to with the aim of throwing himself and Luci into the cage in short order. The closest we have to this scenario is the period of time where Lucifer was possessing Cas - and, as I remember, while Dean was quite determined to save Cas, he and Sam didn't stop going on hunts during that period.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

38 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So everyone has to be an incompetent mess because Dean is elsewhere? I agree with Hana Chan that that isn't necessary. And when has Sam been gone before where Dean is shown as being "incompetent" or even worse off?

I don't think anyone has requested that here.

Sam is not incompetent and he never was. Sam makes mistakes because he's human. The show has gone too far with removing Sam's flaws. They don't have to be world ending flaws nor ridiculous OTT moments like him shouting at demons who then leave or the events of Red Meat. It can be somewhere in the middle.

Why not have someone in the bunker come across Dean's old Walkman EMF detector and ask about it. Then Sam could have had a moment of nostalgia.. for him to say " I remember when Dean showed me that. He built that thing himself and it still works.", with some pride. Maybe have someone making a snarky comment and have Sam call them out defending Dean's work there. It would also show he respects Dean's intellect with mechanics and electronics. There are 13 seasons of things that don't need to be Sam sitting down and making a eulogy about Dean but moments that show their history and his heartache that Dean is gone. And I could even live with Sam showing some anger with Dean for doing this. Maybe have him remember back to Dean making a deal. That would be quite human for Sam to be irritated and angry with Dean but that he's going to find him anyway because he loves him.

How about a flashback to the moment when Dean is taken by Michael and show that Sam is struggling to cope a little bit. But they blew past all that (IMO so Jared could keep his beard) because he wasn't bearded in the finale). So they time jump and ruin the grief potential. They could even have Sam SAY nope I'm focusing on the hunting because I believe Dean will get control and maybe take a hunt so we can find him that way. But none of that was said to be the case.

IMO, Dean's absence is not emotionally felt enough for my tastes.

Aeryn13 · October 14, 2018

I don't think it's about his efforts to find Dean, to me the episode did a very poor job showing why he should. Everyone, especially Sam, seems better off.

I don't care at all for the supposedly "squeeful" message that looking for Dean is more like looking for a pet. Beloved by ypu but not because of valuable contributions like a human would bring.

And of course Mary should give it up with the fake concern anyway. She doesn't know Dean, never bothered to so stop pretending.

catrox14 · October 14, 2018

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The closest we have to this scenario is the period of time where Lucifer was possessing Cas - and, as I remember, while Dean was quite determined to save Cas, he and Sam didn't stop going on hunts during that period.

And IIRC I complained about that then too. To me that's a terrible way to write this stuff and I always have.

That said, I don't find those things comparable either because as much as my Destiel shipper heart loves it, Cas made his own decision to do that and not tell anyone what he was doing

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don't think it's about his efforts to find Dean, to me the episode did a very poor job showing why he should. Everyone, especially Sam, seems better off.

I don't care at all for the supposedly "squeeful" message that looking for Dean is more like looking for a pet. Beloved by ypu but not because of valuable contributions like a human would bring.

And of course Mary should give it up with the fake concern anyway. She doesn't know Dean, never bothered to so stop pretending.

Michael can just teleport wherever he wants and is invisible I think. I would give Dabb ALL the credit if he has Michael show Dean how they all live without him, just to make Dean give up whatever fight he might be putting up. But it would not be a lie. It would be Dean seeing that it seems the world doesn't need him. Kind of like "It's a Wonderful Life" scenario but only if it ends up that Dean's absence would make the world a worse place as time goes on. Sadly, I don't think they'll go that route.

Reganne · October 15, 2018

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Coming back to this thread because I don't want to risk B/J in the episode thread...

I can sort of understand the complaint that Sam was a little too badass in this episode, but as he was pretty much useless for most of last season, I don't see that as a major offense against Dean. Sam's last attempt at leadership was a total failure in which he himself wound up dead. I don't see any problem with having him, rather than Mary or Bobby, stepping up - he's one of the two leads.

What I don't find in this episode is any evidence that Sam isn't doing everything he can to try to find Dean. How authentic one finds his grief is a matter of interpretation, but it is explicit in the episode that Sam has just returned from pursuing a lead on Dean, and has Ketch following up on another. It seems fairly clear from context that it isn't as if he was twiddling his thumbs for two weeks and four days before half-heartedly going off to Atlanta or wherever they said he was, either: the lead he was following seemed like pretty weak stuff. He's been grasping at straws and chasing at shadows.

I just really don't see what more Sam could or should be doing here, short of doing precisely the kinds of things that have gotten him in major, major trouble before, like working with demons. Which, by the way, we haven't ascertained he wouldn't be willing to do; it just hasn't come up yet, and there's no indication that a demon deal or going to hell or whatever other demonstration of loyalty would be deemed sufficient evidence of Sam's concern would even do any good here. Even for the Winchesters, this is actually uncharted territory, as when Sam was possessed by an archangel, it was something he had consented to with the aim of throwing himself and Luci into the cage in short order. The closest we have to this scenario is the period of time where Lucifer was possessing Cas - and, as I remember, while Dean was quite determined to save Cas, he and Sam didn't stop going on hunts during that period.

I agree. I also think that Sam should be able to take care of himself and accomplish things seeing as he is a grown man. The point of wanting Dean back shouldn't be about what Dean can do to take of Sam. Dean is valuable to Sam because of the relationship they share.

I think Sam's grief is obvious as he was listening to classic rock while driving baby. He isnt sleeping much and he is handing food that is offered to him off immediately which is subtlety saying eating isnt really on Sam's mind either. Though he has the ability to take care of himself, he is actually neglecting his own basic human needs because of the absence of Dean and him spending his time looking for Dean instead of eating or sleeping enough. Hence why he chose to do research on the computer instead of eating the soup he was offered.

catrox14 · October 15, 2018

37 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Hence why he chose to do research on the computer instead of eating the soup he was offered.

Or maybe he didn't want it from Mary? I'm only being half-snarky here. Maybe he doesn't want Mary to mother him. I thought he shot her a look like "Leave me the fuck alone"...

Res · October 15, 2018

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thank God the network head sees Jensen/Dean's value, or I'm certain Dabb would have tried to write him out by now.

Please tell me at this point how writing Dean out is a bad thing for the character compared to what is happening to Dean now. I'd much rather have Dabb cut Dean loose than have him ruin more of Dean's legacy and character.

AwesomO4000 · October 15, 2018

11 hours ago, Lastcall said:

Try flipping the situation, say Carver came back and devoted an entire season to showing how better Dean is with out his brother. How the only reason he isn’t the greatest hunter in history is because Sam has been an anchor around his neck and how much better Dean is without him. How he thrived in Purgatory because he wasn’t burdened by Sam. Have Sam completely removed from the show and then show how great everything is because he is gone. Don’t tell me the Sam fans wouldn’t be just as pissed, they still resent season 8 and 9.

For me, this is pretty much what Carver did do for most of season 8. Show how much better a "brother" Benny was and how maybe Dean would be happier and better off with Benny and how Sam was an anchor around Dean's neck so that he even had to give up Benny - literally having to kill him - in order to save that anchor.

...And even then I might have excused some of it if Carver hadn't also made Sam into not only an ineffective hunter and general damsel in distress, but a complete jerk as well who abandoned Kevin and whined about Benny and complained about not getting to go to farmer's markets and not being able to be with his "one true love" who he'd already left anyway. ...And speaking of that, Sam's "story" in the first half of season 8, such as it was, was told in inane flashbacks that not only made no sense for him to be flashing back to, but added nothing to the present storyline and, in my opinion, had to be the worst - or at the least, the most boring - arc they ever had on this show by far. That's why I resent season 8.

I resent season 9 for different yet related reasons.

We've only had one episode so far, so there is plenty of time for this not to be like what Carver did to Sam in season 8. And already at least Dean has a story that isn't as bad and nonsensical as Sam's Amelia storyline. And I'm pretty sure that Dean won't come back as a jerk or whining about how he misses being possessed by Michael, so he's already starting out with a better shot, in my opinion.

So in a way I can sympathize, but in another way, I can't see how this season could be anywhere near as bad for Dean as what was done to Sam in season 8 or season 9B. Only my opinion on that I realize, however.

Edited October 15, 2018 by AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000 · October 15, 2018

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why not have someone in the bunker come across Dean's old Walkman EMF detector and ask about it. Then Sam could have had a moment of nostalgia.. for him to say " I remember when Dean showed me that. He built that thing himself and it still works.", with some pride. Maybe have someone making a snarky comment and have Sam call them out defending Dean's work there. It would also show he respects Dean's intellect with mechanics and electronics. There are 13 seasons of things that don't need to be Sam sitting down and making a eulogy about Dean but moments that show their history and his heartache that Dean is gone.

I think it's been a long, long time since they've done this though. The main examples that I can think of were from season 1 and 2 (Dean lamenting Sam's not being there to talk to the couple in "Scarecrow" and Sam lamenting Dean not being there because he would know what to do in "All Hell... Pt 1") I think now the writers just expect it to be a given that we realize that Sam and Dean miss each other when they are gone.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And I could even live with Sam showing some anger with Dean for doing this. Maybe have him remember back to Dean making a deal. That would be quite human for Sam to be irritated and angry with Dean but that he's going to find him anyway because he loves him.

I have lamented this before myself.

I thought that Sam being angry with Dean for making the deal (and feeling guilty about that, too) made more sense for his behavior of calling Dean weak in his annoyed states in season 4 than Sam supposedly wanting to be "stronger than everybody" or whatever it was that War alleged. But the writers - for whatever reason - wouldn't let Sam have those kind of reactions back then, so I doubt that they would let him have them now. Who knows why? I would say they might've thought it would make Sam look badly ...though I think it would've just been human, and would actually have been better - in my opinion - than the implication that he just wanted to be or thought that he was stronger than Dean. It could also be that it would be saying that Sam maybe had a reason to be angry / annoyed with Dean for making the deal, and maybe the writers didn't want that, so they thought it best not to address it.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Or maybe he didn't want it from Mary? I'm only being half-snarky here. Maybe he doesn't want Mary to mother him. I thought he shot her a look like "Leave me the fuck alone"...

Maybe only Dean's allowed to bring him food and try to get him to eat. ; )

catrox14 · October 15, 2018

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe only Dean's allowed to bring him food and try to get him to eat. ; )

LOL. That's funny. I'm sure there are some in fandom who think this!

AwesomO4000 · October 15, 2018

Hee!

mertensia · October 15, 2018

19 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Isnt that the whole reason she was planning to stay behind. Because they were her people. So her suddenly wanting no responsibility doesn't really make a lot of narrative sense. She seems to be staying at the bunker.

Mary is allowed to change her mind. Free will. She is allowed to realize that she cannot lead effectively and worry about Dean. Because she has had problems bonding does not mean she cannot worry.

Edited October 15, 2018 by mertensia

ILoveReading · October 15, 2018

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

Mary is allowed to change her mind. Free will. She is allowed to realize that she cannot lead effectively and worry about Dean. Because she has had problems bonding does not mean she cannot worry.

This would really put Mary in a bad light.

It's only been 3 weeks. She really gives up quickly.

What exactly is Mary doing other than standing around pearl clutching?

Then that makes Mary a bigger ice queen than she already comes across. These were the people she was going to abandon her sons for. She said they were her people and they needed her. The second they become an inconvenience she dumps them all in some else's lap. She sees her son burning the candle at both ends and "oh well changed my my mind. Sucks to be you Sam. You have to take care of anything while I stand around and worry. I can't do both."

She seemed to have no problem worrying about Jack and the AU people and leading in a war torn apocalypse world. She also has Bobby there to help.

If she can't lead and worry at same time does that mean the entire time she was in the AU she didn't give her sons a second thought since she can't do more than one thing at a time. If she didn't give her sons a second thought then is she really genuinely worried about Dean? Not to mention she seemed able to worry about Jack and lead in the AU

This really makes Mary sound exetremely selfish and confirms my theory that she really doesen't care about anyone but herself.

Which brings it back full circle. Why isn't she leading the people she said she was responsible for.

What about Bobby why isn't he stepping up since his ice queen princess is useless.

I don't buy its because he's unfamiliar. The worlds aren't that different.

This is why Sam leading the AU hunters really makes no sense unless the writers wanted to push Sam into the leader ship role. Which has been their agenda for the last two seasons.

Edited October 15, 2018 by ILoveReading

mertensia · October 15, 2018

Mary is a human. She's allowed to be flawed.

Lastcall · October 15, 2018

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

...And even then I might have excused some of it if Carver hadn't also made Sam into not only an ineffective hunter and general damsel in distress, but a complete jerk as well who abandoned Kevin and whined about Benny and complained about not getting to go to farmer's markets and not being able to be with his "one true love" who he'd already left anyway. ...And speaking of that, Sam's "story" in the first half of season 8, such as it was, was told in inane flashbacks that not only made no sense for him to be flashing back to, but added nothing to the present storyline and, in my opinion, had to be the worst - or at the least, the most boring - arc they ever had on this show by far. That's why I resent season 8.

I resent season 9 for different yet related reasons.

We've only had one episode so far, so there is plenty of time for this not to be like what Carver did to Sam in season 8. And already at least Dean has a story that isn't as bad and nonsensical as Sam's Amelia storyline. And I'm pretty sure that Dean won't come back as a jerk or whining about how he misses being possessed by Michael, so he's already starting out with a better shot, in my opinion.

So in a way I can sympathize, but in another way, I can't see how this season could be anywhere near as bad for Dean as what was done to Sam in season 8 or season 9B. Only my opinion on that I realize, however.

I was trying to explain current Dean fan rage but you summed up the Sam fan rage perfectly. If I remember right Sam fans were pretty riled up too under Carver. If any Sam fans hated the show and Carver and felt like he assassinated Sam’s character, that is what many Dean fans are going through now.

I disagree that this is one episode though. Dabb has been tearing Dean down for years. We have just hit the full culmination of his plan and have reached peak Sam pimping. And just to be petty, when Carver turned it in to the Dean show the ratings went up and flourished until they broke their year of the Deanmon promise. Dabb’s Sam show has caused the ratings to implode and will probably lead to cancellation, either this year or next year tops.

Lastcall · October 15, 2018

38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This really makes Mary sound exetremely selfish and confirms my theory that she really doesen't care about anyone but herself.

Mary needs to go she is completely unredeemable. Linking her to Bobby only drains any enthusiasm or advantage in having him back. The only thing that could salvage that mess is if they explained Amara returned Mary’s body without a soul. Then put the real Mary’s soul back and maybe people would stop cringing whenever she was on the screen.

ILoveReading · October 15, 2018

43 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I was trying to explain current Dean fan rage but you summed up the Sam fan rage perfectly. If I remember right Sam fans were pretty riled up too under Carver. If any Sam fans hated the show and Carver and felt like he assassinated Sam’s character, that is what many Dean fans are going through now.

For me the difference is that I don't think Carver's intention was to throw Sam under the bus. Because from the sounds of interviews authroiral intent was clearly to show Sam had matured. He was stated multiple times. I think at first he genuinely wanted to give the brothers a healthier relationship. I believe his intention was to show that Sam grieved and then moved on rather than trying to make a deal. To show they learned from their mistakes. But I think he went wrong with not having Sam try. He should have opened the season with Sam standing a crossroads looking to make a deal, realizing he couldn't go down that road again, that Dean wouldn't want him too, and then driving away he hits the dog. Exact same season, whole different context.

Same with Season 9. I don't think we were supposed to side with Dean.

I just think in both instances Carver underestimated Jensen.

When people protested, I think he went way to far in there other direction and made the brothers, especially Dean, more clingy and co-dependent than ever.

But with Dabb, yes, He clearly has every intention of throwing Dean under the bus and has been stripping away Deans' legacy. It becomes more and more obvious.

Edited October 15, 2018 by ILoveReading

Myrelle · October 15, 2018

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

While the characters were nominally trying to find Dean, the episode didn't show his value at all. Sam didn't struggle at being a leader, he was pimped as super-great at it.

It's is truly like Dabb said, now that pesky Dean is gone, the characters are doing actually great. So Dean being gone is really a positive thing for them.

To show Dean truly missing, the Bunker shouldn't have been a well-oiled hunting machine and then at the end Sam is pimped to the high heavens.

What this episode has been showing is that Dean's contributions to the show and hunting are worthless because anyone can do wonderfully without him.

They may look for him but certainly not because they truly need him in their lifes for anything. That means the stage is set for Dean to be superflouus when he gets back.

I wanted the Michael storyline to highlight something positive about Dean but it is clear it will be doing the opposite. They will use it to show Dean is weak and unnecessary.

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You can say Kip was giving a Crowley imitation, but he was still treating Sam as a superior being, and the words were what they were.

Mary showed more compassion for Sam and his beard than she has in two full seasons toward Dean.

The AU people are calling him Chief and sir, without a trace of irony.

I would love to see Dean not pimped in this way.

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As it stands now, all I see when Dean is coming back and clogging things up. It seems like nothing would improve if he comes back.

Like @Aeryn13 said, I want to see Dean being missing as valuable. I wanted to see that things would improve if he came back. He wouldnt even make things easier for poor poor put upon Sam because he'll just be someoen else that Sam has to take care of.

It didnt' even need to be Sam burning the candle at both ends. Because what exactly are Mary and Bobby doing. DM'ing each other about how much they heart various things? They could have dealt with the AU hunters.

Things don't need to competley fall about but they could show Sam struggling with some things. They didn't. They showed him being perfect at everything.

One thing, they could have done. An AU hunter could have needed advice on how to deal with some kind of monster. Sam says something like, "My brother Dean hunted that once and he dealt with it by doing XYZ. He's great at finding out of the box solutions."

Or another example is that scene in Scarecrow when Dean's in the diner and trying to get the couple to listen. He says "if my brother was here you'd listen." Of course things weren't completely falling apart but that one little line lets the audience know that things would be better with Sam around.

I wanted to see them talk about Dean. Or even do what Ross Lemming said and not drive the car. Or have an AU hunter try to take the keys to Impala and Sam telling them right where to go because that's Dean's car. Or when they were all sitting at the end, bring up something about Dean's the best cook or have them realize there was no beer becasue Dean wasnt' there to buy it.

They don't have to burn down the bunker but things don't need to be running as smoothly as they were.

19 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes! Catrox, this is a good point, and I agree. Dabb has been working on making the hunters on the show into a military team that need a military leader, rather than the solitary, tormented, shadowy individuals they started out as, just so that he could write episodes like this last one. He has a very specific idea of what he wants his Heroes to be, and he wants them to be like something out of a generic military thriller. For him, heroes are men that have a big reputation and carry big guns, and go around telling people it is their job to save the world, and everyone is impressed by them. They deal with threats to the United States President and they break out of secret military installations. They make big speeches to their team and then lead them on Special Forces raids where they mow people down with semi-automatic weapons and blow up buildings. It doesn't really have anything to do with where Supernatural came from and what made it a great show, and unfortunately it is something I find as dull as dishwater.

This latest episode was just a continuation of this trend. As far as the main story of the episode, you could remove everything supernatural from it and it wouldn't really change anything. Sam is shaping his rag-tag team into a para-military group to take out threats to the nation. One of his men is kidnapped and held hostage by members of an international crime syndicate, and it turns out that their leader wants to be the new mob boss and wants to use Sam to get what he wants. (The fact that the the crime syndicate is composed of demons is completely irrelevant, considering that their climactic confrontation consists of fighting with guns and knives and fists, supernatural powers apparently not required.)

Just as with the lack of focus on the Michael!Dean storyline, there was no intrinsic requirement or necessity that the episode be written around Sam showing off his leadership skills. This is the story that Dabb decided to tell; he could have written a totally different story that didn't even include the AU hunters. He could have written that they had found a way back to their own universe, if he wanted to. Dabb wrote the story this way because this is the story he wanted to tell; if you like it, good for you. I don't, though.

Yes, I'm afraid that about sums it up.

20 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

To sum my position up. I want to see Dean acknowledged as a great leader. I want him to be given credit for leading all along.

There are no excuses why it can't be acknowledged both on screen and off. None.

20 hours ago, ster1 said:

Dabb's deification of Sam actually goes back further than that. In the comics, Dabb wrote a young Sam as being a more capable hunter than Dean. And in "Form and Void," Sam lectured Dean about valuing human life, figured out how to cure the Darkness plaque despite being sick himself, and single-handedly saved all those infected. I think "Form", "Red Meat", and "Stranger" perfectly encapsulate Dabb's perspective on Sam's character. (And I don't think it's a coincidence that in all those episodes, Dean/Jensen took a backseat with very little to do. )

While Sam has done great under Dabb, Dean has not fared as well. There are no episodes stanning Dean or Dean suddenly embodying new skill sets - just the opposite. Dean's lost traits and skills that used to define his niche on the show. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Dean joined in with the AU hunters to start following Sam's lead. Dean's "trauma" gives Dabb a lot of leeway to keep chipping away at Dean's character.

Time is not on my side this week, but lots of comments that reflect my feelings on what's happening with this show and the writing of the two main characters under Dabb. I highlighted some things that I also feel very strongly about and I'll add that after the premiere, I'm really, really worried that S14 is pretty much going to just be another iteration of S12b and this last quote says it all AFAIC with how Dabb is running things and what he is trying to convey via his showrunning and writing and the writers room is going right along with him-no rebels in that room, that's for sure.

And they couldn't even wait one episode to bring Pellegrino back.

And yup, I now think that Regarding Dean was the character's swan song, too. Dabb is done with writing for him, IMO, but he can't just write him out, so he'll do the next best thing-write him in the least positive light that he's able to-that being the clown and the "weaker" brother.

And this is only one way(albeit the biggest one to me) that he and Singer are running the show into the ground in these last seasons-and all simply to keep the gravy train rolling for everyone connected with the show.

How very sad and disappointing.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Myrelle

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