“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

And damn it... if there's one thing that I'm looking forward to with the DeanMichael storyline (however long it lasts) will be for Sam's POV to finally get some real focus. Because however much Jensen is on screen, it's not going to be Dean we're watching and I'm really hoping that Sam's viewpoint will come off the back burner.

Why do so many see Dean as suffocating - even the PTB ?  He must be 'gone' so everyone else gets some focus and PoV?  Jensen has boatloads of screen presence to be sure, but the writing diminishes Dean at every turn. 

[Lemuria]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

This is something I really don't understand.  Because Sam has explained over and over since season 1 why he does what he does, from leaving the family in the first place, through Ruby, Purgatory, Lucifer, Gadreel and the BMoL--he's explained and justified and (sometimes) accused every single time.  Just because people don't *like* his explanations or reasoning (or they sound unsympathetic) doesn't mean we don't know what they are.  

Personally, I think both boys are better/stronger/more understandable when they're apart--Sam can be empathetic, Dean can be badass without being overly protective, and they both can be leaders in their own right without taking anything away from the other.  But because TPTB (and the fans) seem to want them together all the time, there are going to be times when they're unsympathetic or downright unlikeable.   But we still know *why* they're doing whatever.  *shrugs*

I agree with this 100%.  This has always been my position:  I never understood the "we never get Sam's POV" argument.  Sam has never been either inarticulate or mute.  The thing is, his POV hasn't always been sympathetic (neither has Dean's) but it doesn't mean we aren't getting to see or hear how he feels.

I've always felt, not just in regard to Supernatural, that negative characterization is as much valid characterization as the positive is.

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

This is something I really don't understand.  Because Sam has explained over and over since season 1 why he does what he does, from leaving the family in the first place, through Ruby, Purgatory, Lucifer, Gadreel and the BMoL--he's explained and justified and (sometimes) accused every single time. 

I disagree. I think we got pieces but not the whole. We saw why Sam went with Ruby, for example, (which to me based on what we saw, made sense), but not why Sam started drinking demon blood, which in my opinion was the more important plot point. For me that would have been like having Dean go make the deal without having seen Dean's explanation to Sam's dead body. That last bit of explanation was important, in my opinion, and made things more understandable. And it was similar with Purgatory. We were told Sam just thought it was done, but we didn't see why Sam thought that way even though it seemed to contradict Sam's behavior every other time Dean died or disappeared. The plot skipped over that part, and that was the important part. Did Sam see something we didn't see that made him think Dean was dead? Did Sam decide that this time poking the door to purgatory would be too dangerous based on what had happened before when they had messed with Purgatory (like Castiel had)? I don't know, because for me, the narrative skipped that last crucial piece. (And in my opinion, they did so, because it made little sense based on Sam's previous behavior, or they didn't want it to make sense.)

And the BMoL definitely not, in my opinion. Sam's reactions in "The Raid" were - to me - actually all pointing to Sam not going with the BMoL. His reactions after finding out the truth about The Colt, for example, were how betrayed Sam was about that, and understandably so. So how Sam went from that utter look of betrayal to "sign me up," in my opinion, skipped an important piece somewhere. Again we got pieces, but not the last one that made everything make sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by Lucifer in the list. If you're talking about Sam going to the cage, I have no problem with that or with Sam thinking that he should. Sam prayed, and based on his faith, he thought that with the situation so dire, that maybe this time God had finally listened. Maybe that was a little arrogant, but Sam is a bit arrogant and I'm okay with that, so I had no problem with it and didn't find it some huge awful thing Sam did. Lucifer getting out had just as much to do with Castiel's decisions and Rowena's manipulations as it did Sam, and for me, that was all well shown and explained.

I agree about Sam's leaving the family to go to college. That one was well explained, I thought, and we got Sam's reasoning why he left. And maybe because of that, not coincidentally, I thought that situation and Sam's reasoning there was completely understandable even if the show itself didn't seem to think so.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He was the worst brother ever because he never tried to find Dean. He was a bad person because he left Kevin to twist in the wind. A reluctance to return to hunting had nothing to do with it. Not for this viewer anyway.

Why then did the writers have Sam do this? What was their objective concerning Sam?

The "mature" motivation doesn't make sense to me, because there was no commitment to it. (See below). So I can only assume from what I saw that Carver and the writers were okay with making Sam's character look badly and act contrarily to everything I'd seen since season 2. I can't think of one instance when Dean had disappeared before that Sam didn't do anything he could to find him. The list of examples is long, so why was this time different? In my opinion, we were told something (that made little sense), but were never shown. And the writers didn't care to explain it either.

Quote

 

The writing was and is what it is. Remove emotion and the bias of preferring one character over the other, and it's still what was written on the page. We were told by the writer and showrunner what their intentions were when they put those words to paper. We can say all we want that what they say doesn't matter - but if that's the motivation they gave the characters and the actors playing them, then I say it does matter. That the fans didn't accept that is another story.

As to the bolded - at least it's better than being replaced by a dog.

 

I'm not so sure I can agree if the "words they put to paper" don't agree with the supposed intention. If the writers were trying to say that Sam's motivation was mature... then why didn't they have Sam say something to that effect to show it from the beginning. "Dean, how many times have we messed with things to try to save each other, and how many times has it gone wrong? I wanted to, believe me, but I couldn't take that chance again." Boom - there we go. Sam would've been shown making a mature decision according to the writers. But that would've required the writers to actually commit to that idea and take a stand on Sam's side about that, and I don't think Carver wanted to.

I think Carver wanted to see fan reaction, so he left wiggle room to back out on the "Sam was being mature" thing. (And including abandoning Kevin was a good indicator of this for me). And once they did see fan negative reaction, instead of showing what Sam did as "mature" we got jokes about how "Sam hit a dog" and had everything else Sam did was immature. There was no commitment to the "Sam made the mature decision" idea - and I think Kevin's "Eeeeat me"s in very first episode pointed to the fact that Carver had no intention of making a firm commitment to the idea that Sam was making a "mature" decision from the beginning, since he was already leaving himself a way out - otherwise that would have translated to the actual words and actions shown. They maybe even would have actually split Sam and Dean up for a few episodes instead of showing things via flashback. Actually showing and committing to the idea that Sam and Dean not being connected at the hip was the good and mature thing. ...But I think they wanted to gauge fan's reaction first, and used Sam as a guinea pig to do that... and once the reaction was negative, they let the bus run over Sam like "what a crappy brother." And it coincidentally made Carver's character Benny the "good guy" - so win-win for Carver. No real chances taken and only Sam's character took the hit for the failed "experiment."

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree.

I think there's no question that we usually disagree on most things concerning Sam, at least. :)  So rather than explaining my position point by point, I'm just going to Agree to Disagree.

[Hana Chan]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think Carver wanted to see fan reaction, so he left wiggle room to back out on the "Sam was being mature" thing. (And including abandoning Kevin was a good indicator of this for me). And once they did see fan negative reaction, instead of showing what Sam did as "mature" we got jokes about how "Sam hit a dog" and had everything else Sam did was immature. There was no commitment to the "Sam made the mature decision" idea - and I think Kevin's "Eeeeat me"s in very first episode pointed to the fact that Carver had no intention of making a firm commitment to the idea that Sam was making a "mature" decision from the beginning, since he was already leaving himself a way out - otherwise that would have translated to the actual words and actions shown. They maybe even would have actually split Sam and Dean up for a few episodes instead of showing things via flashback. Actually showing and committing to the idea that Sam and Dean not being connected at the hip was the good and mature thing. ...But I think they wanted to gauge fan's reaction first, and used Sam as a guinea pig to do that... and once the reaction was negative, they let the bus run over Sam like "what a crappy brother." And it coincidentally made Carver's character Benny the "good guy" - so win-win for Carver. No real chances taken and only Sam's character took the hit for the failed "experiment."

I just remember back in season 5 when we had multiple episodes of seeing Sam sneaking behind Dean's back to work with Ruby, and then multiple episodes of Dean's obvious disapproval (not to mention dire warnings from Castial) regarding Sam's actions before we got up to I Know What You Did Last Summer. The first time we saw Sam that season, he was shacked up in a motel room with a girl (that later we would learn was Ruby) and she was not fully dressed. Not exactly a moment that would inspire sympathy from the audience. It was only then that we started to see, via flashbacks, just what Sam was going through and how he ended up in a position where Ruby was able to manipulate him. By that point, we'd had a lot of weeks with Dean's frowny faces, threats to Sam and calling him a monster and an angel (that the audience is supposed to assume is on the side of good) calling Sam an abomination and that if Dean couldn't stop him that they would. So no matter how understandable or even justified Sam's actions might be, the impact was blunted by having us see what was driving him too late in the season to shift how the audience was seeing him.

As for Sam's rational for dropping out of hunting while Dean was in Purgatory, I don't think we ever got any real statement as to why that really stuck beyond Sam just being done. It didn't make sense and again, we waited a considerable amount of time before even starting to grasp that maybe Sam was at the end of his emotional rope at the time he hit the dog. And again, this was after weeks of seeing Dean being (understandably) upset and lashing out at his brother for giving up on him. 

If the show needed to drive home the point of just who's POV we're supposed to be focused on, we only need to look at who's POV closes nearly every pivotal episode. Even the episodes that focus on Sam's storyline nearly always ended with Dean having the final say.

Again, I don't blame Dean for that. I blame the writers. And as a fan of Sam, it's been discouraging to wade through multiple seasons for the few nuggets of real Sam focus that tend to get lost.

[gonzosgirrl]

Anybody who can watch tonight's episode (14x01) and tell me with a straight face that Dabb is not a Sam!Girl --- well... LOL!

I challenge anyone to find me a Dean scene in all 13 seasons that compares with Ode to Sam that was the bar-fight scene in this episode. Between the fawning, fangirling King of Hell-wannabe asking Sam's blessing to ascend the throne, to a whole roomful of demons scurrying away at his command and the cape-flicking declaration that there would never be another King cos Sam Winchester says so. Whew. Dabb makes Sera Gamble look like a hater.

[FlickChick]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anybody who can watch tonight's episode (14x01) and tell me with a straight face that Dabb is not a Sam!Girl --- well... LOL!

I challenge anyone to find me a Dean scene in all 13 seasons that compares with Ode to Sam that was the bar-fight scene in this episode. Between the fawning, fangirling King of Hell-wannabe asking Sam's blessing to ascend the throne, to a whole roomful of demons scurrying away at his command and the cape-flicking declaration that there would never be another King cos Sam Winchester says so. Whew. Dabb makes Sera Gamble look like a hater.

This x 1000000! So help me Chuck, it's a good thing that Dabb is not in my presence tonight!

[ILoveReading]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Anybody who can watch tonight's episode (14x01) and tell me with a straight face that Dabb is not a Sam!Girl --- well... LOL!

Or that he has any respect for Dean or Jensen.

He admitted to getting rid of Dean so other characters can breath.  It felt like he did the same with Jensen. 

To bad it sucked for him, because Jensen was the only standout in this episode.

JP looked so awkward trying to play Dean.  Seriously, why can't the show just let Sam be Sam.

Dabb sucks

[gonzosgirrl]

The show might get decent ratings tonight since it's the premiere, but I have to imagine they will tank next week once people see the crapfest that is the writing and storytelling in store. And by god, they better not blame it on people not wanting to see Michael or Jensen as Michael or anything to do with Jensen, or even Jared for that matter. It's shit writing and a completely off the rails showrunner.

[ster1]

I asked this a little while back but my question still holds- what purpose does Dean serve on the show anymore? Dabb has made it clear that he sees Sam as a one-man Wundershow.  He'd already handed many of Dean's previous skills to Sam (talking to kids, bonding with witnesses and guest characters, fixing mechanical things, coming up with out of the box solutions) and now Sam's taken the leadership mantle too. Because, seriously, there's no way all those hunters are going to switch their allegiance from their "Chief" to Michael's ex-vessel. There's really nothing left for Dean except to drive Baby, drink a lot of beer, and eat like a pig. Oh, and maybe be Sam's back up on hunts once in a while. Or not, since Sam's now so amazing demons run from him in terror. 
 

Since there's no need for Dean anymore, at least Dabb could have let Jensen play Michael for 1/2 the season. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Well I'll give Dabb credit for one thing - he did something I didn't think anybody could do: made me almost wish I was a Sam girl. They must be wetting their pants tonight.

Although I'd like to think I would be embarrassed for Dean to be on the receiving end of such fawning, doe-eyed hero worship from all and sundry, and delivering such cringe Boy King worthy speeches (but damn, I'd like the opportunity to be tested on it - just once).

Edited October 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ster1 said:

Since there's no need for Dean anymore, at least Dabb could have let Jensen play Michael for 1/2 the season. 

But then Jensen would be getting props. Can't have that.

It's not just Dean that he dislikes, IMO. It really does seem like he's holding some kind of a grudge against Jensen, too, because I've never seen the like where it concerns his character AND actor bias.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

But then Jensen would be getting props. Can't have that.

It's not just Dean that he dislikes, IMO. It really does seem like he's holding some kind of a grudge against Jensen, too, because I've never seen the like where it concerns his character AND actor bias.

Michael and Jensen both felt shoehorned into this episode. 

It's like Dabb doesn't want Jensen to be able to play this character or tell this story.

I'm not sure if this is spoiler but I'll tag just in case.

Spoiler

I'm 99% sure Mark P is going to play Michael.  So I'm guessing once it shift Dabb will give it lots of attention.   It makes me mad that the one thing Jensen asked for is being given to Mark.  He'll be the one that ultimately develops the Michael character because Dabb and co. won't write for Jensen.

 

But its Dean that's the John clone.  RME.  Roll them hard.

[ILoveReading]

But its Dean that's the John clone.  RME.  Roll them hard.

[Myrelle]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's shit writing and a completely off the rails showrunner.

Maybe having his spin-offs rejected has made him lose his marbles.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Michael and Jensen both felt shoehorned into this episode. 

It's like Dabb doesn't want Jensen to be able to play this character or tell this story.

I'm not sure if this is spoiler but I'll tag just in case.

  Hide contents

I'm 99% sure Mark P is going to play Michael.  So I'm guessing once it shift Dabb will give it lots of attention.   It makes me mad that the one thing Jensen asked for is being given to Mark.  He'll be the one that ultimately develops the Michael character because Dabb and co. won't write for Jensen.

If your hidden contents are proven correct, like I believe they will be, Jensen needs to be smart and take a leaf from Sheppard's book. Jensen's been through this before. He doesn't need it again. He deserves so much better than this after all these years and all his loyalty. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Res

[belbar]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Hide contents

You Totally nailed. Bingo.

[Hana Chan]

I think this is a classic case of "be careful of what you wish for because you just might get it". One of the chief arguments I've heard over the years as to why Dean got the primary emotional POV for so many storylines was that Sam was the focus of the mytharc. Now the situation is reversed and Dean's presence (both physically and emotionally) is reduced and I understand why his fans don't like this. Welcome to our world.

The problem is that Dean right now (as I said in the episode thread) is both the McGuffin and the adversary. As the adversary for the human characters (Dean included) we're not going to get a huge amount of screen time focusing on Michael early on since it's going to be about him setting up his grand evil plan. Until we start getting real confrontations with Team Free Dean, there's only so much screen time that's going to be devoted to Micheal. At least, in the short term.

Going forward, I'm hoping that we'll get a few scenes like we had during the Samifer storyline, where a mirror is used to let us have both Michael and Dean in a scene and show that Dean is in some way trying to fight back and is affected by what Michael is doing with his body. Especially once we start getting confrontations with Sam, Mary, Castiel and Jack. Show Dean trying (and even failing) to regain control in order to protect his family. Give Dean stakes in this fight beyond being the damsel in distress who needs to be rescued because Dean is nothing if he's not a fighter.

[Hana Chan]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They must be wetting their pants tonight.

We were glad to get an episode where Sam got a lot of emotional POV focus and just to have some place in the storyline beyond just riding to Dean's rescue, but like I said before this is pretty much a reversal of what we've been dealing with for going on nine seasons now. How many times have I read complaints from Dean fans that he didn't have a place in the mytharc beyond watching out for/helping Sam. So now Dean is the mytharc focus and you're getting a sense of what we've lived with. I'm not expecting it to last too long so I'm going to enjoy it while I can. I fully expect Sam to be shoved back into the background (as far as being a POV focus) the instant that Michael sheds Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

We were glad to get an episode where Sam got a lot of emotional POV focus and just to have some place in the storyline beyond just riding to Dean's rescue, but like I said before this is pretty much a reversal of what we've been dealing with for going on nine seasons now. How many times have I read complaints from Dean fans that he didn't have a place in the mytharc beyond watching out for/helping Sam. So now Dean is the mytharc focus and you're getting a sense of what we've lived with. I'm not expecting it to last too long so I'm going to enjoy it while I can. I fully expect Sam to be shoved back into the background (as far as being a POV focus) the instant that Michael sheds Dean.

I disagree with pretty much every word of this, but I'm also weary of restating the argument(s), so I will just agree to disagree.

[Pondlass1]

Sam has his fans. Dean has his fans.  We all watch through a different lens I guess.  

But I'm so glad I'm not a Cas fan.  They must be frothing at the mouth. 

[catrox14]

IMO, the difference is that Sam's POV is in the story. It's always been there in the writing. If it's not felt or doesn't resonate I think that is an acting or  directing problem more than writing. Of course there is always not liking what the character is being made to do or not understanding until the longer purpose is revealed.

Sam was the character who was going to change from being reluctant and  getting out of the life to being kind of bad and then having Redemption along with having another round of going bad and Redemption and now Sam is now on his path to being the fully invested hero that Dean was when the show started. I think this is the difference. 

Dean was always already a hero when the show started. He was already saving people and hunting things. To take Dean somewhere they put him into emo role and built on Jensen skills as an actor that he could put those layers into Dean.

Jensen puts Dean's PoV into the character and IMO Jared doesn't do that nor does he have to because it's in the  writing already. YMMV.

Edited October 12, 2018 by catrox14

[Bergamot]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The problem is that Dean right now (as I said in the episode thread) is both the McGuffin and the adversary. As the adversary for the human characters (Dean included) we're not going to get a huge amount of screen time focusing on Michael early on since it's going to be about him setting up his grand evil plan. Until we start getting real confrontations with Team Free Dean, there's only so much screen time that's going to be devoted to Micheal. At least, in the short term.

I have seen this excuse used repeatedly, and sorry, I don't believe it. There is no intrinsic requirement, or magic rule of television writing -- even on Supernatural -- that if Jensen is playing Michael, his role must be minimized. Lucifer was an "adversary" on the show, and there were many many scenes in episodes last season (and in previous seasons) showing his story. I remember because I was always fast-forwarding through them. How about we give Michael at least as much screen time -- and more importantly, story focus! -- as Lucifer has gotten in the past? (Although it really should be much more, considering that Jensen is one of the stars of the show.) Other adversaries on the show, like Crowley and Metatron, were also give plenty of space and time on the show for their stories to be told.

I think you could consider Soulless Sam a McGuffin, but while his existence served as a device to trigger the plot for the season, the character also got as much screen time and story focus as ever. His role wasn't minimized to allow Dean's character to breathe, to allow Dean to develop and show off his awesomeness. Same with Sam when he was possessed by Gadreel. Or even Demon Dean -- we only got to have him for a couple episodes, but at least in those episodes his story was actually being told. It might be more complicated for the writers to focus on Michael!Dean, it might require more work and imagination and originality on their part, but personally I don't think it is asking too much to ask them to do a good job.

Who knows what we might see in upcoming episodes -- I'll wait and see -- but in this very important episode for the character, the first full episode with Michael!Dean, the focus on his story was barely there. (Again, this is not just about screen time.) The episode was all about the awesomeness of General Sam. Whatever, I don't watch the show for Sam, but to each his own. But again, this was not an intrinsic necessity for the story; it was a deliberate choice on Dabb's part to focus on this. And I think he pretty much gave his predilections away with his comment on allowing the other characters to breathe -- that was very revealing, and it won't be forgotten.

As for "Be careful what you wish for" -- sorry, you are not going to hear this Dean fan regret wanting to see Dean as Michael. I think the Dean fans on this forum have been very eloquent as to what they would like to see with Michael, and I think their comments are great! If the show fails to make it work, it is on the show's writers, not on them.

As for me, I have already gotten something I desperately wanted. For years, literally, the show had erased two of the biggest, most important and fundamental facts about Dean Winchester as a character: that he had been to Hell, and that he was the Michael Sword. I really thought the show would end with these essential aspects of Dean having been completely and inexplicably "disappeared", as if they had never existed. But then last season they both resurfaced, to my great satisfaction and delight.

Sure, I would prefer that the show do something amazing with these facts, and give them the focus they deserve -- although with the people currently in charge, I don't have much hope. But at least I had that satisfaction of having them acknowledged, and I don't regret wanting that.

[Aeryn13]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

We were glad to get an episode where Sam got a lot of emotional POV focus and just to have some place in the storyline beyond just riding to Dean's rescue, but like I said before this is pretty much a reversal of what we've been dealing with for going on nine seasons now. How many times have I read complaints from Dean fans that he didn't have a place in the mytharc beyond watching out for/helping Sam. So now Dean is the mytharc focus and you're getting a sense of what we've lived with. I'm not expecting it to last too long so I'm going to enjoy it while I can. I fully expect Sam to be shoved back into the background (as far as being a POV focus) the instant that Michael sheds Dean.

When in the history of the show has Dean been getting so much pimping as not only the greatest leader ever but the guy a room full of demons flee from in terror?

When Sam was Lucifer, we got a Samnatural episode, now that Dean is Michael, we got a Samnatural episode.

And I kinda believe Dean is never going to be back, just one more flunky in Sam's army that is gonna be used for humiliating comic relief. Whereas I fully believe Sam's character will retain the uber-pimping for the rest of the show.

[ILoveReading]

I don't regret wishing to see Jensen play Michael.  I've been wanting it since it was dropped in 5.18.  

There was no written rule that Dabb had to spend more time on Jack and Lucifer.  We had 3 scenes Jack getting a pep talks.  Anyone of them could have been cut to give more attention to Michael.

How satisfying would it have been for Sam fans to watch Sam salt and Burn lucifer's body.   Instead of pointlessly bringing him back yet again. 

How about showing the search for Dean.  Open in Atlanta with Sam, Cas, Jack, talking to witnesses. 

Give us a scene where we see them all reminiscing about Dean and talking about how they miss him. 

They're are other ways to showcase Sam leading rather than the over the top out of control pimping and having demons run because he said so. 

This show episode felt just like Dabb said.  Get Dean out of the way he stops sucking the oxygen out of the room. 

There were so many different things Dabb could have done. 

The entire Michael plot felt shoehorned in.  Like Dabb had no interest in.

Edited October 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I have seen this excuse used repeatedly, and sorry, I don't believe it. There is no intrinsic requirement, or magic rule of television writing -- even on Supernatural -- that if Jensen is playing Michael, his role must be minimized. Lucifer was an "adversary" on the show, and there were many many scenes in episodes last season (and in previous seasons) showing his story. I remember because I was always fast-forwarding through them. How about we give Michael at least as much screen time -- and more importantly, story focus! -- as Lucifer has gotten in the past? (Although it really should be much more, considering that Jensen is one of the stars of the show.) Other adversaries on the show, like Crowley and Metatron, were also give plenty of space and time on the show for their stories to be told.

Thank you. The idea that one of the leads of the show should be minimized this way is ridiculous in and of itself, but in this show, for the reasons you so perfectly expressed here, it's nothing short of insulting.

Blaming the fans for wanting something potentially great for both Dean and Jensen is just an easy excuse for Dabb & Co's shitty writing. Getting an 'I told you so' from the anti-Dean/Jensen factions is just salt on the wound. The fault - all the fault - here, rests on Dabb's shoulders.

[Lastcall]

Well after two failed spin-off attempts it looks like Dabb has just gone ahead with his dream of doing a supernatural show without Dean Winchester and no one at the CW seems to even care. The only consolation is the drop off in the ratings during the second half when people realized what garbage they were watching. It’s obvious that the CW is going to let Dabb run the show right into the ground and it will end badly casting a pall over the entire series. 15 is probably it and it will be a slow death.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Blaming the fans for wanting something potentially great for both Dean and Jensen is just an easy excuse for Dabb & Co's shitty writing. Getting an 'I told you so' from the anti-Dean/Jensen factions is just salt on the wound. The fault - all the fault - here, rests on Dabb's shoulders.

+1000.

Spoiler

Jensen said at Jersey that Dean is to repress everything and that Jensen has really seen nothing in the scripts about anything relating to his Michael expeience.  Given how much Dabb doesn't care about Dean.  Ive come to believe that when Dabb told Jensen that it would come back to haunt him, I bet that means having to face the super monsters or Sam will get hurt somehow or have to clean up the mess.  I seriously doubt he meant actually dealing with Dean's actual trauma.

Dabb made it clear he has Sam on pedestal.  This is why I'll never agree that Dabb was showing Sam was wrong when he joined the Brits or that his decision was anything but a major epiphany that he should have been leading all along. 

I'd bet money that Dabb has no intention of giving the leader role back to Dean but there will be lots more pimping about how Sam is the best leader ever and how Dean his so sorry he held General Sue from his true destiny.  

Edited October 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lastcall]

I just read the ratings analysis from Deadline comparing last years premier to this one. The show lost 29% in its demo and 31% of its viewers. It’s ironic that Dabb’s obsessive quest to make Sam the most popular has made the character and show less.

[catrox14]

Brought over from spoilers because this isn't really spoiler conversation so I think it's better here.

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I'd like Michael to be interesting too, insofar as his motivations and just what his goals are. But sensual? We're talking about angels that have always been portrayed on the show as a pretty cool, dispassionate lot except for the furor in fulfilling whatever mission they feel they are set out for. The exceptions thus far have been Gabriel and Balthazar (primarily because of their time among humans) and Lucifer (who fell because of his passions). What I would like to see is some real personality, the way we got with Zachariah that fleshes out Michael beyond his self-appointed mission. Because that would give Jensen something to work with and build upon. 

A great example of an angel character that balances the cool indifference with some real spark was Tilda Swinton's protrayal of Gabriel in Constantine. The movie itself was pretty awful (and a poor interpretation of the source material) but her performance was pretty outstanding. We got the disdain for humanity, devotion to his heavenly mission as well as self-righteous fire. 

 

 

And we shouldn't discount how Jared portrayed Lucifer back in season four. He had good material and was able to balance the majesty of a fallen archangel with the latent madness that was just underneath the surface. I know that Jensen took some cues from Jared's portrayal of Meg for the Deanmon storyline, so it would make sense for Jensen to look at how Jared handled playing Lucifer (and Gadreel) to help with some of his acting choices.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I am legitimately interested in reading or watching that interview, if you have a link to it.  I don't see how Jared playing Meg, who was a different character would help Jensen to play another version of Dean in demon!Dean. That seems like some bad advice to lose Dean from a version of Dean. Weird. I hope Jared wouldn't give him that advice.

I know that Jared suggested to Jensen that he do what he can to lose Dean for Michael, that was said during the Red Carpet Interviews at this year's Paleyfest.  I've never heard that part about Meg though.

 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Jensen has already said at SDCC that he spoke with Christian Keyes about retaining some of what Christian did for his Michael to keep continuity on AU Michael. I'm not sure other than what Jared said at Paleyfest how it would be helpful for him to give him suggestions related to how he played a different character. 

 

 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've often said here that  I think Jared's performance as Lucifer is his best work on the show so I'm not remotely criticizing Jared here nor discounting his skills with playing other than Sam. 

I'm saying that I don't  understand why Jared  would advise Jensen to play something other than Dean in a version of Dean like with what he said about demon!Dean.  I could see him saying something about looking to the performance of an actor in a prior role when reprising a version of that character which Jensen did by speaking with Christian when Christian was on set, Or tips on how to lose  aspects of a character that one plays all the time.  That's what confused me.  

Anyway, if you happen to find a link for that con I'd appreciate it. If not, no problem!

I've often said here that  I think Jared's performance as Lucifer is his best work on the show so I'm not remotely criticizing Jared here nor discounting his skills with playing other than Sam. 

I'm saying that I don't  understand why Jared  would advise Jensen to play something other than Dean in a version of Dean like with what he said about demon!Dean.  I could see him saying something about looking to the performance of an actor in a prior role when reprising a version of that character which Jensen did by speaking with Christian when Christian was on set, Or tips on how to lose  aspects of a character that one plays all the time.  That's what confused me.  

Anyway, if you happen to find a link for that con I'd appreciate it. If not, no problem!

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I'll never agree that Dabb was showing Sam was wrong when he joined the Brits or that his decision was anything but a major epiphany that he should have been leading all along. 

But as I've been trying to articulate, I find the "epiphany" itself insulting. I don't think Sam should have been thinking that he needed to lead all along. I think he was fine just the way he was. I liked Sam the way he was. I could relate to Sam the way he was. I don't want him to be like Dean. I like Dean, but I prefer Sam. So to insinuate that Sam needed to have this "epiphany" that he should have been leading all along - for me - says that Sam was "wrong" for not leading all those seasons previously, and therefore had to be changed from Sam into something not really Sam in order for him to be a worthy hero.

In other words: Sam as he was just wasn't good enough for the past 12 seasons, so he had to have this "epiphany" and change. How is that not seeming to be saying that Sam (as he was) was "wrong" previously and only now - after having this "epiphany" that he's been looking at this / doing it wrongly all these previous years - will he be doing it "right?"

To me, I don't care what the writers were trying to say. In my opinion, it came out insulting and looking like Sam was "wrong" and had to be changed in order for him to be "right" and worthy of being a hero. To those of us who liked Sam the way he was - and for me personally who also fears that in the end, Sam will eventually go back to being the way he was, but only after now showing that he was "wrong" for being that way - this is not a win. Like at all. It won't even be a win for me if Sam stays this way as leader... because I don't want Sam to like being leader. I don't think that that's his personality and I don't want to see his personality changed***...

So basically, I pretty much lose no matter which way it plays out. The best I can hope for is that Sam will realize that he doesn't really like being the leader (which he had already figured out by season 2), but that he doesn't have to be in order to still have an important role. And I'm not very optimistic on this point.

*** In fact most of my complaints about this show are about the times when I think the writers change Sam's basic personality in order to fit into whatever plot it is they want to stick him into, generally with little explanation at all for why he's acting so differently (in my opinion).

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In other words: Sam as he was just wasn't good enough for the past 12 seasons, so he had to have this "epiphany" and change. How is that not seeming to be saying that Sam (as he was) was "wrong" previously and only now - after having this "epiphany" that he's been looking at this / doing it wrongly all these previous years - will he be doing it "right?"

I don't think they were saying he wasn't good enough. It's all part of his journey.  It's a new hat they want Sam to have.  They want him to be an official leader because what else is there for him? I'm not being snarky.   He's been the bookworm, the rebel, the bad boy, the redeemed bad boy, the Prodigal Son basically who has finally come home and accepted his life.    I can understand you maybe not wanting it for him, but the show does and I really don't think they are going to take it back if and when Dean returns.

[ILoveReading]

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

Spoiler

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Res]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

  Hide contents

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

I don't think they are far off either. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are right on the money and hope Jensen sees the light ASAP. I wish I could say that I was more surprised about one of the comments but I'm not. In fact, I expected that and more BTS shenigans that we don't know about.

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

  Hide contents

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

I'm queasy just thinking about how badly they're going to write Dean this season. Run Jensen! Go where you'll be appreciated!!!

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

This is basically what I've been saying since Dabb took over. I've fully been expecting them to kill off Dean in a terrible fashion that will only show that the world is better without Dean in it.  I really do believe that. 

[Lastcall]

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

Great article, I think it is spot on. The episode reads exactly as a Dean faze out and the fans have noticed. So fine Dabb you got what you wanted and now you and the CW get to see what a Dean-less supernatural is like. I just don’t think it’s going to be a response you could have ever imagined.

[Res]

20 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Great article, I think it is spot on. The episode reads exactly as a Dean faze out and the fans have noticed. So fine Dabb you got what you wanted and now you and the CW get to see what a Dean-less supernatural is like. I just don’t think it’s going to be a response you could have ever imagined.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of response are you expecting? Or are you talking about after the total faze out/death?

[Lastcall]

12 minutes ago, Res said:

Just out of curiosity, what kind of response are you expecting? Or are you talking about after the total faze out/death?

I think Dabb believes Dean isn’t necessary for the show to succeed and I think the ratings and fan outrage are going to show him just how wrong he is.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I think Dabb believes Dean isn’t necessary for the show to succeed and I think the ratings and fan outrage are going to show him just how wrong he is.

I know Dean's the only one keeping me watching and even that is borderline with all the Sam pimping.

[gonzosgirrl]

I have been predicting Dean's death for a long time. I think Dabb is intimidated by "Dean's" looks, talent and likeability and he's determined to use his tiny little pen to best him in the only way he can.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have been predicting Dean's death for a long time. I think Dabb is intimidated by "Dean's" looks, talent and likeability and he's determined to use his tiny little pen to best him in the only way he can.

When I think back to the good for Dean episodes written by Dabb, I can only assume Daniel Loflin had the Dean part.  And I do think The Prisoner was good but it was also Dean at his most feral which Dabb said he likes writing for a Dean who's off the rails.  But generally Dabb's episodes are Sam pimping. I mean I think Dabb really does see Dean as he did in After School Special and it's other writers who do better by Dean. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I wish we had a Bitch/Jerk spoiler thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

HALLOWEEN HORROR – Dean (Jensen Ackles) continues to struggle. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) must think fast when action figures come to life, and our heroes find themselves living in a real-life horror movie. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Davy Perez. (#1404). Original Airdate 11/1/2018.

 

More weak and useless Dean and Sam having to come to Dean's recuse.  Isn't Dean supposed to be the horror expert?

At least they arent' even pretending anymore that Sam is the leader/planner/thinker and researcher/better hunter.  He even knows more about topics that Dean is supposed to be familair with.

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178993236976/what-are-dabbs-intentions

I don't think they are that far off. 

I don't know... I can't imagine that Dabb  would write off their bread and butter character/actor.  If Jensen became unhappy over 100 people would be out of work including Dabb (I would doubt he could get a job as a P.A. if he pissed off the talent).  Jared and Jensen would be happy to call 300 a day if it came down to it.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't know... I can't imagine that Dabb  would write off their bread and butter character/actor.  If Jensen became unhappy over 100 people would be out of work including Dabb (I would doubt he could get a job as a P.A. if he pissed off the talent).  Jared and Jensen would be happy to call 300 a day if it came down to it.

Unless Jared is okay with continuing to do the show without Jensen. It's possible.

[Casseiopeia]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless Jared is okay with continuing to do the show without Jensen. It's possible.

I don't think so.  Jared wants to quit acting altogether. Sometimes I get the feeling he only stays on because of Jensen (and the over 100 people who would be out of work). 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think so.  Jared wants to quit acting altogether. Sometimes I get the feeling he only stays on because of Jensen (and the over 100 people who would be out of work). 

They've established Jack as the muffin and the fandom demo they want seems to love him. He could easily be the lead of an ensemble cast if they wanted to worm back to Wayward Sisters via SPN. I can see that happening.  Jared and Jensen could both leave if Dabb gets the ensemble that the CW will accept.  

[Lastcall]

25 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think so.  Jared wants to quit acting altogether. Sometimes I get the feeling he only stays on because of Jensen (and the over 100 people who would be out of work). 

    You hit the nail on head. Jared has said he wants to quit acting for years at least auditioning or searching things out. The latest I remember was him saying was he would like to stay home and act when someone called him up with something interesting. Jensen talks a lot more about the crew being family and everyone growing together over the years. I think that’s why Jensen is around. I think both of them like spending time with the cast and crew and would feel guilty about them losing work if either left. 

    The main problem I see is the CW seeing the show on its last legs and letting Dabb write any horrible ending he feels like. I have been hoping that someone higher up would see the current travesty and get someone to take over that realizes what they have. They came back from falling ratings and angry fans before and they could do it again. I am sure of one thing though, at the very least Pedowitz gets how important Jensen is to the show and I can’t see him keeping the show on if he leaves. He gave Dabb two shots at Dean-less shows and I can’t see him greenlighting another season of the mothership without him.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Lastcall

[Casseiopeia]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They've established Jack as the muffin and the fandom demo they want seems to love him. He could easily be the lead of an ensemble cast if they wanted to worm back to Wayward Sisters via SPN. I can see that happening.  Jared and Jensen could both leave if Dabb gets the ensemble that the CW will accept.  

 I do think that Dabb/Berens is going to cram WS down our throats until the series is over.  He doesn't need either Jared or Jensen to do that (they'll get tons of time off).  I agree Jack seems to be what they had in mind for that series and maybe as a bridge between the two shows.  I think they were desperately hoping to faze out Supernatural because they clearly have nothing new or inventive to add to the show anymore.  Even when they do come up with a great new character (Michael) it's botched right from the get.

Mark Pedowiz has pretty much slammed the door on any future spinoff at least as long as he runs the network.  And I am guessing he sure as hell won't give Dabb another shot at it.  So that means we lucky fans get to watch WS til the end.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

Looking at the terrible ratings for the s14 premiere, I am trying to figure out why they were so low and I'm putting it here for safety.

Baseball NLDS were done by Thursday and the NLCS started Friday.  Football and BBT would take most of the audience as is usual.

Is it that the really big fans got to see the premiere at that EW thing. I don't know how many people went. I would guess not enough to matter to ratings. 

Were Jensen fans, who had seen spoilers reticent to watch because they had all of 10 minutes of Michael!Dean as sleuthing showed that Jensen wasn't on set long enough to film a 40 minute ep.

Is it that some fans don't care about Michael and Sam and only watch for Dean specifically so they didn't watch knowing he would be gone.

I found it interesting that the numbers dropped at the 1/2 hour mark.  Was it because there was so little Michael/Dean or because it was too much about a bunch of hunters no one really cares about? 

Was it because there was no real grieving arc shown and Dean's presence wasn't felt in his absence, because Dabb chose to show it 3 weeks later and not the immediate grief and that it's going to be flashbacks, so why waste tiem on the premier?  Will the show  get a bump from DVR L3 and L7 numbers?

Is it because of the fucking terrible spoiler from that ad placement and folks were like this is stupid?

Is it  too much General Sam and Mary (who is IMO at best a polarizing character). 

I wonder why they didn't bother to run the promo for ep 2? 

I think the ratings will get a bump for ep 2 because Jensen fans will expect more Michael!Dean.

 Sam's ascension to the rank of  General Winchester is complete now. He's giving orders to his minions   What else is there for him other than saving Dean from Michael? 

dunno. I just don't want to read that the conventional fandom "wisdom" is that it was the Michael!Dean arc to blame when  the episode was 3/4  Samnatural.  They stuck around until it seemed Michael was out of the picture.  

Speculation ahead

Spoiler

II think they are  setting  Sam up the Boy King  after all  with his "must go through me" . 

I mean that seemed like major foreshadowing to me vs the end of the Hell SL. 

I think  General Sam  will have his army of  hunters, demons and angels to battle Michael!Dean's monster army.  And since it seems clear that Dean is back by ep 6 barring a big out of character writing swerve on Dabb's part, another person will be Michael which  leaves Dean to do what....be in conflict over with Sam for his army?  Or just too depressed tofight and they put him in a corner to emo? 

I would actually be okay if they have him  go off on his own to fight Michael his own way because he doesn't want to deal with Sam's army.  I mean that would fit Dean doing it some other way which is how he rolls.

Edited October 13, 2018 by catrox14

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think the ratings will get a bump for ep 2 because Jensen fans will expect more Michael!Dean.

There might be something to the hurricane and football shaving off ratings but it doesn’t explain the half hour drop. The people that showed up simply weren’t buying what Dabb was selling. I just can’t see the ratings going up after that premiere. I think they will be lucky to stay at .5 but there is an equal chance it will go down to .4. The only thing Supernatural has going for it is the other CW shows are imploding too.