“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can appreciate the thought and reasoning here, but alas, I don't think for a moment that it was the writers/Dabb's intention. I just don't believe they think that hard about Dean and Sam's actual skills - they went for the smart Sam/dumb Dean trope again because that's what they do of late.

Fair enough points. The exception maybe for me being that in my opinion, Sam gets hit enough with the dumb stick, too. The "I'm joining up with the BMoL, because what could possibly go wrong with that?" being a good example.

49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam himself told Dean he was a genius at lore.   So for me this excuse doesn't work for me.  If those were just words it makes it look like Sam was emotionally manipulating Dean to get the trials. 

Are magic and lore the same thing? I'm generally operating under the impression that they aren't. Magic is often iffy - not just in this show, but in others. Just because you're good at lore doesn't mean you want to necessarily mess around with magic. Especially if foreign languages - often dead foreign languages - aren't your cup of tea.

And what would Dean asking Sam if he could fix the Colt have to do with Sam supposedly thinking Dean wasn't good at lore and supposedly manipulating him? I don't get it.

Quote

 

If they wanted to get the message across  then they could have had Dean had Sam a colt that was fixed physically or had him ask Sam if Bobby shared the magic of making the colt work.

"Can you fix it?" comes across as Dean not being able to fix it period.

 

This is a fair point, except that the writers would have had to somehow show some time passage before that happened. From the damage we saw, that didn't look like an easy fix to me.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Bobby took the whole thing apart and said it was "just a gun" (I assume without the bullets).  Ruby made more bullets for it, while Sam and Dean were both out of town (Bobby showed up with the gun already loaded.)  If we're assuming that Ruby showed Bobby how to make the bullets, then there's no reason on earth why Bobby wouldn't show both Sam and Dean, since Dean has always been more the "weapons guy" and canon has shown Dean making bullets/salt rounds/phoenix ash shells in the past, but not Sam. 

You have a good point here, and under this interpretation then it would be only the bullets. I think that I also remember, however, (though I could be wrong) Bobby mentioning that Ruby had "fixed" the Colt and not specifically that she just made bullets for it so that it would work. So I would have to rewatch that part or read up some more on the Colt lore before I could agree or not. With all the writing and symbols on it and the lore concerning the night it was made (something about Haley's comet, I think?), I still tend to lean towards it having a little magic of its own, but I understand if opinions vary.

We don't know exactly what Ruby showed Bobby either. Maybe she did show him how to make the bullets (more probable). Or maybe she just made him a bunch, so she could keep control of the situation, but later gave Sam the formula. (Probably not, but I can't say for sure.)

And jut because Sam hasn't been shown to make bullets doesn't mean he can't or doesn't. He field strips weapons, and I'm assuming soulless Sam made his own silver bullets and salt rounds during that year he hunted alone and with the Campbells. (Also Sam hunting alone for the six plus months during "Mystery Spot.") He had to have been at least a competent hunter - know weapons, bullets, etc. - during that time.

I get why some fans want that to just be a "Dean thing," but I think that ship has sailed along with Sam being the "computer guy" or the "research guy." For me, either of them hunting alone like they did doesn't make sense if that was the case.

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Are magic and lore the same thing? I'm generally operating under the impression that they aren't. Magic is often iffy - not just in this show, but in others. Just because you're good at lore doesn't mean you want to necessarily mess around with magic. Especially if foreign languages - often dead foreign languages - aren't your cup of tea.

I see them as similar because the magic comes from the lore.   The spells are words written in a book that someone has to perform or potions mixed together.  Even if they aren't we have seen Dean perform black magic (Plucky PennyWhistle) and preform multiple spells.  He's smart when the show remembers this.  There really is no excuse for Dean. 

Even if the damage was extensive, they could have had Dean say, "I think I can fix it, can you make it on demons?"

30 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And what would Dean asking Sam if he could fix the Colt have to do with Sam supposedly thinking Dean wasn't good at lore and supposedly manipulating him? I don't get it.

Sorry, this was more directed at the writers, not Sam.  Because the writers hadSam say, Dean's a genius at lore, suddenly trying to say Sam's the lore/magic guy makes it seem like they put the words in Sam's mouth without actually meaning them.  Talk is cheap until its backed up.  That's why its looks like manipulation. 

[AwesomO4000]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sorry, this was more directed at the writers, not Sam.  Because the writers hadSam say, Dean's a genius at lore, suddenly trying to say Sam's the lore/magic guy makes it seem like they put the words in Sam's mouth without actually meaning them.  Talk is cheap until its backed up.  That's why its looks like manipulation. 

Ah, okay. No problem. I'm not even going to try to defend either of the scenarios you're mentioning, because I don't have much good to say about either myself. While what Sam said in "Trial and Error" was nice, for example, I couldn't help but feel it was mostly put in there by the writers to help make up for what had been done to Sam's character earlier in the season, and though I normally - pre-season 8 - would've bought and seen it as genuine, now it just seemed like trying too hard. I really, really disliked what they did to Sam in season 8.

And for the second scenario - most of my hope for Dabb I got from the second half of season 11 and the beginning of season 12 sort of somewhat went out the window with the BMoL thing, so I wasn't having much of what else they were selling after that.

[Wayward Son]

LMFAO 

 

They have scenes of women preferring Dean to Sam all the time. Then when there’s a scene where a woman prefers Sam they make sure to follow it up five minutes later with a Dean being hit on scene. 

 

These writers Jensen/Dean boner makes me LOL

Edited March 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

LMFAO 

 

They have scenes of women preferring Dean to Sam all the time. Then when there’s a scene where a woman prefers Sam they make sure to follow it up five minutes later with a Dean being hit on scene. 

 

These writers Jensen/Dean boner makes me LOL

 

...and Dean was belayed from getting anywhere with her, ...by Sam reminding they had to work a case. I'm not sure that really falls into the boner for Jensen/Dean since it went nowhere and Dean had to be reminded of his work....

Sam and Dean look like Jared and Jensen and for the show to pretend that they are not good looking men who wouldn't  get hit on would be absurd.

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

...and Dean was belayed from getting anywhere with her, ...by Sam reminding they had to work a case. I'm not sure that really falls into the boner for Jensen/Dean since it went nowhere and Dean had to be reminded of his work....

Sam and Dean look like Jared and Jensen and for the show to pretend that they are not good looking men who wouldn't  get hit on would be absurd.

I don’t want to get into a debate on this so I’m just going to post now to clarify my opinion and move on. 

 

I have no issues with Dean getting hit on just so that’s clear. It’s not like I post in here or bitterness complaining every time he does.

 

IMO Dean tends to get hit on a lot more often than Sam. Who knows what the reason for that is. Maybe they think Jensen is the better looking of the two, or maybe they think it just makes more sense because Dean tends to be more flirtatious than Sam. Overall, I don’t really mind that they often have women prefer Dean to Sam since I acknowledge both Sam and Dean are extremely good looking and who one prefers is a matter of taste. 

 

I just found it amusing that on a rare occasion when a woman was depicted as being more interested in Sam it was quickly followed up with a Dean being hit on scene. Just came off as very “don’t worry people we are aware Dean is good looking too” LOL 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Wayward Son
Taste not fact two totally different things LOL

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I just found it amusing that on a rare occasion when a woman was depicted as being more interested in Sam it was quickly followed up with a Dean being hit on scene. Just came off as very “don’t worry people we are aware Dean is good looking too” LOL 

It's really not that rare that women are hitting on Sam in the show, so I don't know why you think that's the case. What is more rare is some hooking up with the women that hit on him. Dean hooks up more, and Sam gets hit on more. 

[Aeryn13]

Sam has gotten the "woman obviously prefers him" plenty of time. Back in Season 1 with Sarah, that doctor in the Siren episode, that one old lady in the Bela ship episode. The cougars in that shapeshifter episode. Sorry, blanking on titles all over the place. Other than Mildred at the retirement home, I can not remember a single time the reverse happened onscreen. 

When I watched the latest episode, I could easily picture Dabb and Singer putting themselves in the place of that woman salivating over Sam, with basically drool running down their chins. 

If they liked Dean, they wouldn`t go so easily to the dumb!Dean well. Usually Dabb loves to go to the weak!Dean well. Both are among the most unattractive traits imaginable. 

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's really not that rare that women are hitting on Sam in the show, so I don't know why you think that's the case. What is more rare is some hooking up with the women that hit on him. Dean hooks up more, and Sam gets hit on more. 

And when is the last time Sam got a 'dad bod' or 'you're so old' comment or scene to play? Stumbling over fences, having young women roll their eyes at him, being all confused by these newfangled computers and the Interwebs. Please. If there's any writer insert/favoritism going on, it's certainly not on Dean's behalf. 

ETA: In fact, it's so pointed and ridiculous sometimes, I have to wonder if it isn't a little bit of jealousy of Jensen's looks and personality that 'inspires' some of these writers.

Edited March 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam has gotten the "woman obviously prefers him" plenty of time. Back in Season 1 with Sarah, that doctor in the Siren episode, that one old lady in the Bela ship episode. The cougars in that shapeshifter episode. Sorry, blanking on titles all over the place. Other than Mildred at the retirement home, I can not remember a single time the reverse happened onscreen. 

There was also the older lady in Blade runners.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There was also the older lady in Blade runners.

That woman hit on Dean :)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

ETA: In fact, it's so pointed and ridiculous sometimes, I have to wonder if it isn't a little bit of jealousy of Jensen's looks and personality that 'inspires' some of these writers.

I mean, I see them in interviews, then see the digs on Dean`s looks they write in the episodes and think "yeah, right". 

Buffy and Angel had some cheeky commentary on actor`s looks occassionally but never something really mean-spirited. And on shows like TVD noone ever pretended those people weren`t scorching. Or Arrow with the "Oliver is hot" remarks. None of those writers would put in ridiculous digs like "old and ugly" against their actors. Considering they are all on what is pretty much known as the "pretty people" network.  

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That woman hit on Dean :)

I think that's what she was saying - there was Mildred and there was her (because Aeryn couldn't think of another example). :)

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think that's what she was saying - there was Mildred and there was her (because Aeryn couldn't think of another example). :)

Ahh. sorry I thought we were talking about the older women hitting on Sam. Sorry. I got confused. 

[AwesomO4000]

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And when is the last time Sam got a 'dad bod' or 'you're so old' comment or scene to play? Stumbling over fences, having young women roll their eyes at him, being all confused by these newfangled computers and the Interwebs. Please. If there's any writer insert/favoritism going on, it's certainly not on Dean's behalf. 

From Claire in whatever episode that was where they were working together. She told Sam he was too old to get info in the high school and that he'd look creepy if he did the recon. At least in the past, Sam is also more likely to get the misinterpreted "you're creepy" humor over Dean, as in "Shadow." Because Sam's bad at talking to women, don't you know?

And in my opinion, it might be a nice change of pace for me for Sam to get some physical humor. I think Jared is pretty good at it - as with "Bad Day..." It might be a nice change up from the "Sam is such a stuck up prude," stuff he often gets, especially when it makes no sense...The writers stuffed it into this episode for example, when not very much later, Sam's entirely changed his tune into "yeah, we should totally steal it!"

So, ehn I think they both get hit with the negative stuff pretty badly.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam has gotten the "woman obviously prefers him" plenty of time. Back in Season 1 with Sarah, that doctor in the Siren episode, that one old lady in the Bela ship episode. The cougars in that shapeshifter episode. Sorry, blanking on titles all over the place.

Though not with Sarah - which was nice - I think it's sometimes partly because it's "funny" when Sam gets preferentially hit on by the women, because it is often women who are either obviously not going to go anywhere - like the older lady - or are of questionable motives - like the cougars - or maybe they're evil - like the doctor... or they are actually evil/morally corrupt - like the con woman in this episode and Meg. So sometimes when the woman is set up to like Sam better, there's a humorous aspect to it rather than a straight up "the woman prefers Sam." Many of your examples here actually qualify as the more humorous set up for me. As in "of course she likes Sam; she's bad or evil." Not that I think that's always the case, but there is sometimes that aspect to it.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Other than Mildred at the retirement home, I can not remember a single time the reverse happened onscreen. 

There was the woman in "Nightshifter" who went on and on to Sam about how brave and noble his brother was. And Jo was a recurring one also. She obviously preferred Dean to Sam even though Sam was likely much closer to her age.

Oh, and not a woman, true, but the waiter in "The Mentalists" seemed to take more of a shine to Dean than Sam: "You are a virile manifestation of the divine." Why yes, yes he is.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

misinterpreted "you're creepy" humor over Dean, as in "Shadow." Because Sam's bad at talking to women, don't you know?

I think that was pretty warranted whoever the character was.  He was hanging out in his car staring up through a girl's window watching her change.  

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: In fact, it's so pointed and ridiculous sometimes, I have to wonder if it isn't a little bit of jealousy of Jensen's looks and personality that 'inspires' some of these writers.

Or the writers have a different sense of humor than you, and they think it’s funny. Or they see the characters differently. Writing for the show is their job. I really doubt they write Dean the way they do because they’re jealous of Jensen’s good looks. They are professional writers not middle schoolers. Just because you don’t like the way they write doesn’t mean they are jealous of Jensen.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think that was pretty warranted whoever the character was.  He was hanging out in his car staring up through a girl's window watching her change.

Oh I know it was warranted on the lady's part, but my point was that it was put in there to be played for humor: "Look at creepy Sam." The lady didn't have to be walking by for the scene to get done what it needed to get done.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Writing for the show is their job. 

That doesn`t mean one has to think they do a good job. Or are professional at doing their job. I believe it neither, looking at their "work".   

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Or the writers have a different sense of humor than you, and they think it’s funny. Or they see the characters differently. Writing for the show is their job. I really doubt they write Dean the way they do because they’re jealous of Jensen’s good looks. They are professional writers not middle schoolers. Just because you don’t like the way they write doesn’t mean they are jealous of Jensen.

I know a lot of 'professionals' who are not above being petty. Not even a little bit.

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh I know it was warranted on the lady's part, but my point was that it was put in there to be played for humor: "Look at creepy Sam." The lady didn't have to be walking by for the scene to get done what it needed to get done.

That was one example. I'm hard-pressed to think of another, but in any case, I don't think it can be argued that Dean doesn't get the lion's share of the negative, let's call it 'teasing' to be kind, when it comes to his looks/aging/eating habits/culture/smarts, etc.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know a lot of 'professionals' who are not above being petty. Not even a little bit.

Agree.  Just look at the writing for Mark Sheppard's character.  He even commented on how he knew he was on his way out because of the decline in the writing for Crowley.  Mark Sheppard said at a recent comic con that there was a good bye soliloquy ending with "Even when I lose I win"  A line Mark had a whole t-shirt campaign built around and they cut it.  Even if it was a time thing they could easily have kept the last line. 

TBH, the writing for Dean give me the exact same feeling as the writing for Crowley.  It feels personal.  We know its happened to Jensen in the past.  On Dark Angel it was personal.

As for the girl, I tuned out I may have missed something but didn't Dean hit on her rather then being the other way around?  She was reading, Dean asking what she was reading.  She help a Supernatural magazine and Dean said "I should sit down" before Sam called him over. 

In this ep, Dean's line about being imperfect to help an imperfect world was invalidated, Dean was written as having trouble pronouncing a foreign name, he's apparently needs Sam to rescue him from handcuffs, Sam was shown to be leading the interrogations, doing all the research, going in for the exchange with all the mob guys. 

TBH, if this is the writers having a boner for Dean, I would hate to see how they write him if they didn't like him.

Edited March 9, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Haven't the writers and Singer specifically said he likes it when they take Dean down a peg or two?

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think it can be argued that Dean doesn't get the lion's share of the negative, let's call it 'teasing' to be kind, when it comes to his looks/aging/eating habits/culture/smarts, etc.

I actually think it can be based on the example I gave above of having Sam spout these prudish stuff that really doesn't even fit his character anymore - and hasn't since at least season 2 - but instead is just put in there to be some kind of other side to Dean. It's not the same kind of "teasing" as you listed, but in my opinion, it's still there, usually setting Sam up as the "straight man" even when it makes little sense to do so. At least with Dean, the "teasing" can be interpreted as humorous. He gets a good amount of the humorous and memorable lines. With Sam, things often seem stuck in there just to make him look like a jerk, insensitive, humorless, or all of the above.

Sam actually does have a sense of humor and can be funny, in my opinion. I think, however, many of the current writers have forgotten that.

You may not consider these things "teasing" or negative, but I do, and in my interpretation there is an argument to be made that it isn't as lopsided as you are saying. But that doesn't mean you have to agree, nor that I have to agree that it "can't be argued."

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam was shown to be leading the interrogations, doing all the research, going in for the exchange with all the mob guys. 

Except it was shown also that Dean's negotiating tactics were actually the more effective ones, while Sam was being shown doing an "oh, noes, what is Dean doing?" shrinking violet act when he's seen it all before - as with "Hammer of the Gods"  - and used effectively, so it was pretty much mostly just making Sam look stupid. Again with the "Sam thinks Dean is acting like an oaf / buffoon / whatever when really Dean knows exactly what he's doing" scenario. It's old, tired, and just makes Sam look like a jerk. Quit it, in my opinion.

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Haven't the writers and Singer specifically said he likes it when they take Dean down a peg or two?

I wouldn't be surprised since the last Singer interview I watched made me quit watching  midway. IMO he has a very myopic view of Dean and Sam and he's the real reason behind the lack of character growth/character regression that plagues the show.

Edited March 9, 2018 by trxr4kids

[Jeddah]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Haven't the writers and Singer specifically said he likes it when they take Dean down a peg or two?

I don’t know if they said that, but even if they did that’s still different than being jealous of Jensen’s good looks.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I don’t know if they said that, but even if they did that’s still different than being jealous of Jensen’s good looks.

Not necessarily. Maybe jealousy spawns that kind of thing. 

Jealously is an insidious thing that often people don't know is there.  Funny that Sam is never made the target of looks jokes aside from his height.

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Funny that Sam is never made the target of looks jokes aside from his height.

I seem to remember - though I could be wrong - some kind of Sasquatch and cro-magnon or neanderthal type digs, and I don't think those necessarily have to do with just height as would say "bean pole" or something like that. Even "Lurch" could be argued to be as much a type as a comment on height. It's up for interpretation, I think.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I seem to remember - though I could be wrong - some kind of Sasquatch and cro-magnon or neanderthal type digs, and I don't think those necessarily have to do with just height as would say "bean pole" or something like that. Even "Lurch" could be argued to be as much a type as a comment on height. It's up for interpretation, I think.

To me Sasquatch was about Sam's height and hair,  and Lerch was about his height.  But supposing it was about his looks it's quite rare. It's almost pervasive with Dean in some way.

[Jeddah]

31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even "Lurch" could be argued to be as much a type as a comment on height. It's up for interpretation, I think.

When I think of Lurch I don’t just think about his height. Primarily I think of him being super creepy, and saying “You rang?” in a super creepy voice. Based on Sam’s reaction I think he took it as an insult that wasn’t just about height.

[gonzosgirrl]

I'd gladly trade some height/size/hair/nerdy jibes at Dean over dumb, clumsy, pervy, slovenly, drunken, chews with his mouth open, any damn day. Any. Damn. Day. 

[SueB]

Dean got in a "Disney Princess" hair comment on Sam.  Sam's hair gets a LOT of comments.  Usually positive, except for from Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean got in a "Disney Princess" hair comment on Sam.  Sam's hair gets a LOT of comments.  Usually positive, except for from Dean.

But again, he's being teased for what most people see as a good thing  (nice hair), not a negative trait or appearance.  It's just not the same thing. 

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But again, he's being teased for what most people see as a good thing  (nice hair), not a negative trait or appearance.  It's just not the same thing. 

Very true. 

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I seem to remember - though I could be wrong - some kind of Sasquatch and cro-magnon or neanderthal type digs,

The Cro-Magnon remark was from Gabriel who has no problem with insulting both of the brothers whether it be about looks or intelligence so I don't see it as major dig against Sam. This type of insult is pretty typical from his character IMO.

Edited March 10, 2018 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

33 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The Cro-Magnon remark was from Gabriel who has no problem with insulting both of the brothers whether it be about looks or intelligence so I don't see it as major dig against Sam. This type of insult is pretty typical from his character IMO.

And I don't think I said that it was.

The statement I was answering was that Sam's looks are never made fun of except for his height. I gave examples where I thought it could be interpreted as not the case. A Cro-Magnon has a "look" not just related to height. Lurch has a "look" that is not just related to his height. A Sasquatch has a "look" not related to its height, because the implication there is also that there's at least a lot of hair, and maybe also a lumbering nature (similar to Lurch). Sam's hair doesn't have to do with his height, and while some comments about Sam's hair are complimentary, I'm pretty sure not all are. Being lumbering and gangly is also not generally complimentary or necessarily about height. We don't hear "bean pole" or "gazelle" or "giraffe" or other tall, graceful comparisons that I recall in reference to Sam. We hear "Sasquatch," "Lurch," "Moose,"*** "Neanderthal" ... generally large, lumbering beings. For me - and this is my opinion - this doesn't necessarily relate to just height.

And that was my only point, that yes, I, personally, think that there are sometimes comments concerning Sam's looks beyond just his height. Dean himself is not short, but he's generally not teased for his height or for appearing lumbering like I think Sam is. That was my only point, and not something anyone has to agree with me on either.

*** This one, especially, is not just about height - see below for a more detailed explanation - but except for the lumbering aspect, is also about more than looks.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's almost pervasive with Dean in some way.

For me, this too is up for interpretation, since in my opinion there have been a lot of "Dean is gorgeous" statements too... The aforementioned "virile manifestation of the divine" comment, the woman in Dean's recounting in "Tall tales" who gushed about his looks being like looking into the sun,* the young girl who described Sam and Dean as "One was really cute and one was tall." And likely many more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

For me personally, I'm just not seeing a huge amount of "Dean is old and ugly" in the show, but I admit that miles will vary. For me it's probably just about as common as the "Sam is tall and lumbering" stuff.

* Sure this was maybe a Dean exaggeration, but most likely there was a bit of truth in there somewhere also.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd gladly trade some height/size/hair/nerdy jibes at Dean over dumb, clumsy, pervy, slovenly, drunken, chews with his mouth open, any damn day. Any. Damn. Day. 

And I respect that opinion.

I, on the other hand, would trade more drunken, pervy, easy-going, chews with his mouth open,*** fun jibes at Sam for the prissy, prudish, wet-blanket, dismissive, hoisted on his own petard, hypocritical stuff Sam often gets recently. And yes also any damn day. So miles are going to vary.

*** I didn't include "dumb" because, in my opinion, Sam does sometimes get these. They are just generally more subtle ("Bless his heart") or they come from Crowley, who even though he is now gone, got in a plethora of "Sam is dumb" jabs when he was around. Even his "Moose" nickname for Sam is one big "dumb" jibe, because "Squirrel" - his nickname for Dean - is Rocky, the intelligent one of the duo. (I know, because I watched The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle when I was a kid). "Moose" is not just a reference to height. "Moose" is Bullwinkle the less intelligent one - if we're being generous, the lumbering, dumb one if not - while "Squirrel" is Rocky, the smart one. And to me, it is quite apparent that Crowley sees Dean as the smart one. The nicknames cement this for me.

[Myrelle]

For me it says something that no few of the writers and actors who have ever talked Dean up in some way are gone pretty quick, too.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I don't think I said that it was.

I don't think that I said that you stated that. I answered because you implied that you couldn't remember the circumstances of said insult and so I responded and stated my own opinion on said statement. Sorry for providing the info!

Edited March 10, 2018 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Sorry for providing the info!

Oops, no sorry about that! I actually liked the info - sorry I should have said "thank you."

It was the second part that threw me. I thought you were implying that my examples meant that I thought it was some big insult to Sam... I wanted to make it clear that that wasn't my intent, and that my intent was just to disagree with the blanket statement I was disagreeing with.

I actually agree with you on that particular case... Not so much the "Moose" one, though. That one, for me, is a jibe.

Sorry, if I came across badly. : (

(Truth be told, the "Dean gets insulted so much worse than Sam" stuff can make me bristle on Sam's behalf, because I think they both get it from the writers, maybe differently, but to me still there.)

Edited March 10, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oops, no sorry about that! I actually liked the info - sorry I should have said "thank you."

It was the second part that threw me. I thought you were implying that my examples meant that I thought it was some big insult to Sam... I wanted to make it clear that that wasn't my intent, and that my intent was just to disagree with the blanket statement I was disagreeing with.

I actually agree with you on that particular case... Not so much the "Moose" one, though. That one, for me, is a jibe.

Sorry, if I cam across badly. : (

(Truth be told, the "Dean gets insulted so much worse than Sam" stuff can make me bristle on Sam's behalf, because I think they both get it from the writers, maybe differently, but to me still there.)

No harm done; thanks for clarifying :)

[ahrtee]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"Moose" is not just a reference to height. "Moose" is Bullwinkle the less intelligent one - if we're being generous, the lumbering, dumb one if not - while "Squirrel" is Rocky, the smart one. And to me, it is quite apparent that Crowley sees Dean as the smart one. The nicknames cement this for me.

I think you're overthinking this.  Everyone I can think of has said that Sam is the "smart one" (which also implies that Dean is the "stupid one.")  I'm pretty sure the Rocky/Bullwinkle part was intended just as a commentary on height; but even if it isn't, does one demon (even the King of Hell) calling Sam stupid outweigh virtually *every* other person (friends and enemies and even Dean himself) saying that Sam is smart?  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm pretty sure the Rocky/Bullwinkle part was intended just as a commentary on height; but even if it isn't, does one demon (even the King of Hell) calling Sam stupid outweigh virtually *every* other person (friends and enemies and even Dean himself) saying that Sam is smart?  

(I apologize in advance that this is going to be long, but I want to give my reasoning here, and it's long. I also think it's something that I either haven't addressed in depth or haven't in a long time, so there's a lot to cover to explain my reasoning.)

Truthfully probably not, but I don't know (...more on this later). But I don't necessarily think it means that the show thinks Sam is smarter than Dean either... at least not in the ways that count. I guess it depends on whether you (general "you") are a "show" versus "tell" person. A lot of demons, bad guys, etc call Dean "dim" or "dumb," but they are generally proven very wrong by what actually ends up happening in the end. Sam on the other hand is often called "smart" or "smarter" by demons or bad guys, but I'm not sure that they really mean it. What they are really generally meaning, I think, is that they think Sam will be easier to talk into whatever it is they want him/them to do... and sometimes this is the case - like the BMoL. But that, in my opinion, doesn't mean that Sam is actually smarter because these people or beings say he is. When the bad guys like the BMoL say that Dean isn't smart or that Sam is the smarter one, I don't think I'm actually supposed to think that's the case. So which is the real opinion of the show? The "tell," the "show" or neither? Me, I personally lean towards the "show."

I also must admit that my opinion here is also partially shaped by what my general perception of the show's stance on "academic" smarts from the very beginning has been ... and that has usually been one of not very high regard, in my opinion. And again this is based on "show" rather than "tell." Many of the "academic" characters we see early on, for example, are evil, arrogant, immoral, clueless, or a combination of those. The douchey, arrogant, cheating professor in "Tall Tales," the complicit with the sacrificing-to-a-god-townspeople professor in "Scarecrow," the in Dean's head, but still dismissive professor in "What Is...", the arrogant author expert on worm holes in "Mystery Spot," and the well-meaning but somewhat dismissive and sometimes clueless psychiatrists in "Sam, Interrupted."  An exception to this was the father in "Children Shouldn't Play..." but his role was different in that episode - as more of a McGuffin and to show that Dean's emotional state was not good. One of the more agreeable academics we saw - Eleanor - ended up being an actual monster. Interesting, perhaps ironic message there.

Contrast that with many of who we are told or are shown are the real smart people we see early on in the show: Ash - who was kicked out of Harvard and was self-taught, Bobby - similarly self-taught, John - ditto. And I would argue Dean. Back then Dean was shown to be smart in a practical manner - as when he made his EMF meter out of a broken(?) Walkman - while Sam the "book smart" one was arrogant and dismissive, looking down on Dean's obvious practical and useful intelligence... and I think at the time that was part of the attitude towards those with "book smarts" and the show "showing" that they generally thought practical knowledge and self-made smarts were better while academics were mostly full of themselves. And I think despite Sam having grown past this - and having been shown as such many, many times... the writers still go back to this well with "Sam looks down on Dean, because he thinks his book-learning is better and he's more cultured than Dean, hah hah hah." But do the writers believe this? I don't think they do. I think they believe the opposite actually - that academics are generally arrogant and smug, and that people who are practically smart and are humble about their knowledge are really the people who are the intelligent ones... like Ash, Bobby, John, and Dean. And the show shows this by having Ash, Bobby, John, and Dean actually accomplish things. Ash with his computer skills, Bobby with his books and experience, and Dean with his street smarts. While the "academics" generally get their "just desserts" or are proven wrong.

As a recent example: sure they have Sam get all judgey and flustered when Dean is tough talking the mob guys, but what actually happens? The mob guys respect Dean's attitude. So are we supposed to believe the "tell" with Sam or the "show" with the mob guys actually being impressed by Dean. For me, I believe the "show." So while other viewers are seeing the show implying Dean is somehow dumb in this episode... I'm actually seeing the show implying that Sam is being dumb... or at least less than smart. Because that, in my opinion, is what the show is actually showing me. All these other surface things don't really matter, because Dean gets results... and that is what is important.

It's sort of like Columbo or Shawn Spencer. On the surface, Columbo looks bumbling and slow, needing things repeated and hiding behind his unassuming nature and rumpled coat. But actually he's brilliant and lulling you into a false sense of security. He looks like he's bumbling around the entire time... up until he gets you, that is. And then there's Shawn. He's somewhat annoying and outwardly brash, and all over the place, looking like he's not paying attention, distracted by food and women and any other interest he has that catches his attention at the time... right up until all of a sudden something clicks in his head and he solves the case. In my opinion this is Dean*** and how I think the show actually sees Dean most of the time. The surface stuff pales in comparison to the results. Dean generally gets the bad guy, solves the family problem, talks his way into winning, gets people and supernatural beings alike to see what they might have missed, and saves the world. Don't listen to him at your peril, because bad stuff will happen. This is generally the case again and again, and in my opinion, unless you have a comedy "Forrest Gump" type situation, it's not usually the "dumb" guy who gets it right. So for me, the show isn't telling me that Dean is dumb, because some characters say he is. It's telling me that everyone else - except maybe Crowley who the show tongue-in-cheekly tells us was one of the few smart enough to know not to mess with the "denim clad nightmares" - is mainly wrong. And considering Crowley thinks - in my opinion - that Dean is the main brains behind the duo, it's mainly Dean.

That Sam moved beyond being one of these "everyone else" in season 5, 6, and 7 and truly realized Dean's smarts and reliability only to be drug back into "everyone else" by Carver - and now Dabb again (season 11 had given me hope for a little while) is really frustrating for me. This current episode pulled out all of the stops: "pearl-clutching" Sam (which makes no sense), dismissive Sam, and the "oh noes, my brother is a doofus" Sam who, of course, is proven wrong. I see this as going back to the "book smart, yet actually just arrogant and less intelligent" stereo-type for Sam from season 1 - which I find really insulting.

But I seem to interpret the show so much differently than everyone else seems to that I sometimes wonder if something about the way I see the show is just off.

 

*** (Yup, I see him as partly sort of a mash up between Columbo and Shawn Spencer)

So long story short (sort of)... To answer your question, do I think Crowley's opinion outweighs everyone else's? Maybe in a way it does, but mostly because I think it's more in line with what the show actually thinks about Dean and Sam and practical vs book smarts - based on what I see as the clues, the previous attitude of the show, and what the show is "showing" me in terms of the big picture - so Crowley was serving more as the author mouthpiece in that regard. And up until his death, Crowley was one of the more successful characters in terms of practical intelligence in how to stay alive and in his self-awareness, so I think his opinion carries some weight.

Just my opinion.

Edited March 10, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I think BOTH Sam and Dean are pretty freakin' smart. I'm not sure I care what any character says about Sam, he had a full ride scholarship to Stanford and scored a 174 (out of 180)  on his LSATs. By objective standards, Sam is smart.  He's been shown time and again to have a natural draw towards learning. I remember when they found the bunker and Sam uttered "Son of a bitch." when he saw the library.  It was a bit like a kid in a candy store.  And he's the one Dean relies on most often to do the research and have the correct lore for the task at hand.  So, anyone who underestimates Sam does so (IMO) at their own peril. Sam is self-aware enough to understand he's objectively smart. 

Dean, OTOH, is the self-made smart guy.  And I do think Kripke favored that kind of intellect.  That "middle-America" blue collar hero.  Dean acts dumb but anyone who can actually do the mechanical things Dean can do?  That's not dumb.  That's a gift for an innate understanding of physics and dynamics.  He doesn't know the equations by heart but he knows forces and effects.  And if he wants to become a world-class expert on something, he can do so.  So, IMO, Dean is objectively smart.  Dean doesn't THINK he's smart, but he is. And Sam knows it IMO.

What Dean isn't, however, is concerned with social graces. Sam knows those rules and employs them.  Sam has always had a greater desire to fit in.  Dean loves the 'rebel with a cause' life. Going way back to "After school special" you can see this pretty clearly.  But they've grown beyond that.  And Dean was with Lisa for a solid year.  He was golfing for pity's sake.  Dean can use the social graces when he wants to, he just often doesn't want to.  I think Jensen plays up "gross eating" for comedy but I don't think that Dean is incapable of eating properly.  Sam's give-a-shit about what others think is also much different than it used to be. But he still will default to a more mannered approach and roll his eyes when Dean thumbs his nose at that.  But I don't think it really bothers Sam except he somehow feels the need to apologize for Dean.  That's Sam's problem.  But I think it's more habit than an actual issue.  More 'slipping into comfortable roles' in the relationship than any actual conflict. Just like Dean teasing Sam about "princess hair" is part of his schtick.  

Finally, on Crowley's opinion, Mark Sheppard said to me that Dean was unambiguously the leader of the two and Crowley knows it.  So that's why Crowley always deals with Dean.  It's about power. And he sees Dean being the more powerful of the two (per Mark S.).  It's not that he doesn't appreciate Sam's capabilities, it's just that when both Sam and Dean are there, he speaks to the guy he thinks is making the bulk of the decisons.  Further, Sam's hatred of Crowley has often been on full display.  Dean would drink with the guy.  Personally, I think Crowley admired Dean quite a bit.  I think he respected Sam and was smart enough to know to turn to Sam if Dean wasn't there. But that's, again IMO, partly a function of the different dynamic. As for "Moose and Squirrel", Sam's long legs and strong upper body versus Crowley's stature make the nickname for Sam pretty easy to see.  And "squirrel" is natural for Dean because he's the shorter one who Crowley sees as directing what's going on.  I don't think "Moose" is a comment by Crowley that Sam is dumb.       

[Wayward Son]

I’m watching Jessica Jones season two and noticed that former Supernatural writers Raelle Tucker and Jenny Klein are listed as writers and producers! Always nice to see people who’ve left the show finding success elsewhere :)

[Casseiopeia]

Is Steve Yockey moving on from SPN?

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/fox-paradise-cove-jackal-group-1202722054/

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Is Steve Yockey moving on from SPN?

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/fox-paradise-cove-jackal-group-1202722054/

Evidently.  Bothersome.  I really like Steve.  And he had big credentials coming in.  I expect we were a way station til he got his shot.  Well, good luck to him.  Never hurts to have another member of the SPN family out there to employ our recurring characters (Jim, Mark S., Etc...). And I’m serious about that.  They are good actors and this helps them stay successful as working actors.  I want that for them. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

UGH!!!!

NO!!! He's the one writer who was good to all the characters in general and wrote great dialogue.  This ups the chances of Buck Lemming writing more crap!

25 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Is Steve Yockey moving on from SPN?

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/fox-paradise-cove-jackal-group-1202722054/

[Wayward Son]

That is great news for Yockey, but it sucks for us! Overall, he was my favourite of the new writers! I loved all three of his season 12 episodes and while his S13 episodes have been weaker one was still decent with my favourite interpretation of Castiel (Various & Sundry Villains). 

[ILoveReading]

Good for Yockey, but he was the one Dean friendly writer on staff, and the only one capable of actually creating interesting and layered characters.

[FlickChick]

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Good for Yockey, but he was the one Dean friendly writer on staff, and the only one capable of actually creating interesting and layered characters.

Perhaps that's why he's leaving for greener pastures. I can't imagine working under Dabb as a showrunner.

[Wayward Son]

24 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Perhaps that's why he's leaving for greener pastures. I can't imagine working under Dabb as a showrunner.

I honestly think he’d have left under any of the show runners. If I understood the article right Yockey will be the show runner of his new show. So he’s leaving for a higher position with a presumably higher wage and excellent addition to his CV! I don’t think there is anything to suggest he had personal issues with Dabb :)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly think he’d have left under any of the show runners. If I understood the article right Yockey will be the show runner of his new show

I didn't realize he was going to be the showrunner.  That hurts me even more!