“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Rising Son" thread...

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's not what BL had Sam say. From the closed captioning and my transcription since I can't find a transcipt on line yet. I'm pretty sure this is accurate:

"No, Dean doesn't hate you.

Sometimes the wires in Dean's head get crossed.

And he gets frustrated and then he mixes frustration with anger...and fear."

Sam is saying that Dean's wires are crossed in his mind. That's different than miscommunication or misunderstanding between two people.  So I am left asking myself what is the purpose of this writing. Are they intending to tell us something about both Dean and Sam? If so, what are they trying to say?

My conclusion at this point is that they are saying that this is how Sam perceives Dean.

And basically I can't imagine a reason for doing that which would be complimentary to Sam, so nothing much new in my opinion. And it fits with my impression that Sam is being set up to be wrong / for a fall again this season.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Rising Son" thread...

And basically I can't imagine a reason for doing that which would be complimentary to Sam, so nothing much new in my opinion. And it fits with my impression that Sam is being set up to be wrong / for a fall again this season.

Yeah, I can't figure out where they are going with that for either of them. It's just crap writing no matter how you slice IMO

Edited October 23, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Thinking about the implications of Donatello's missing soul and SS, so maybe I'll post in the All Seasons thread once I clarify my thoughts.   

That's a hot mess.  Good luck with that!  ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, legendinmyownmind said:

Which is B.S, because there have been plenty of times in the past where Dean "wanted" Sam to drive - for one reason or another.

I suppose that depends on the ruler you use to measure bullshit.

Generally, when Dean asks Sam to drive, it's in apology for something, or to boost Sam's fragile ego by showing confidence in him (aka, trusting him to 'drive the car'). It's in Dean's show vs. tell nature.

[ILoveReading]

The British Men of Letters play Sam like a fiddle.  He ends up the leader of the hunting community with everyone gazing at him adoringly.

Under Dabb, no way does Sam get set up for a fall.

The writing in place last episode makes sure of that, with the deliberate and extremely heavy handed, St. Sammy vs mean Dean.

Now if Jack goes bad it won't be because he's the son of Satan, it will be because big bad Dean hurt poor little Jackie's feelings.

Edited October 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[legendinmyownmind]

Sam already got set up for a fall under Dabb (see the BMOL storyline).  Now whiny Princess Dean gets to be rude to everyone and they are all supposed to just roll over and take it - and he gets validated by an f'ing soulless prophet of god.*

*and that story just shat all over Sam's soulless story in S6 and the soulless stories in S11.  If it's nothing worse than having your appendix out and asking yourself WWMRD, which Sam, as smart as he's supposed to be, couldn't manage to do, basically the show is saying Sam really is a monster inside.  Thanks for nothing Buck-Lemming. 

[mertensia]

Maybe- just maybe- because Donatello and Sam are different people their soullessness affects them in different ways. 

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, legendinmyownmind said:

Sam already got set up for a fall under Dabb (see the BMOL storyline). 

I don't see this as a fall since there was zero negative impact on the character.   Sam even took it upon himself to promote himself to leader.

5 minutes ago, legendinmyownmind said:

he gets validated by an f'ing soulless prophet of god.*

Donatello said he felt no evil vibes coming from Jack.  If anything he validated Sam's posistion, not Dean's.

[legendinmyownmind]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Donatello said he felt no evil vibes coming from Jack.  If anything he validated Sam's posistion, not Dean's.

And then the 'teaching a lion' line validated Dean's position. 

[mertensia]

So...zero sum game from Donatello? 

[legendinmyownmind]

Just now, mertensia said:

So...zero sum game from Donatello? 

Well, he is also soulless, so maybe his 'evil vibe sensing superpowers' are a little off.  The lion comment came from 'scientist Donatello' speaking, not prophet Donatello.

[Pondlass1]

23 minutes ago, legendinmyownmind said:

whiny Princess Dean

The lady doth protest too much.  Come on LEDGEND... Admit it - you're actually madly in love with Dean.  He's ALL you talk about.

[legendinmyownmind]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The lady doth protest too much.  Come on LEDGEND... Admit it - you're actually madly in love with Dean.  He's ALL you talk about.

HAHAHA!  Thanks for the laugh, I needed that this morning.

Of course by that logic, You and many others are actually madly in love with Sam!*

*Not that I blame you, of course. ;)

Edited October 23, 2017 by legendinmyownmind

[Wayward Son]

Legitimate question for the Dean fans annoyed that the trial storyline went to Sam... 

 

I get why you would have been annoyed at the time the episodes aired, but why does it still annoy you now even with hindsight? Since nothing came of it and it wound up being one of the most pointless storylines of the whole show.

 

Not trying to pick a fight/debate. I’m currently rewatching S8 and I’m just curious. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Jynnan tonnix]

15 hours ago, scribe95 said:

This is my first visit to this thread and I'm floored there is an actual save/kill count. I had no idea people are so serious about their favorite character.

I watched all 12 seasons in the last six months and generally I had the feel that Dean is the better/tougher fighter. But I never counted to see. To be honest though I often think he is impetuous and a little more thought ala Sam isn't a bad thing. Both characters have their strengths. Some days Dean gets the glory; some days Sam. I don't think it's a competition between them.

I watched the first 10+ seasons over a few months before getting to watch it in real time, so I can relate. Maybe doing it that way without all the time for reflection in between makes those matters blurrier. I agree with your assessment, though. That being said, I don't enjoy the fight scenes, and rarely watch anything with this much violence in it, but I like supernatural stuff in general. So, since I usually watch it on my laptop anyway, you can usually find me sneaking in a quick game of solitaire when the fights start, and coming up for air when things get quiet to see where the body count stands. If it appears that I missed a really pivotal plot point, I can rewind. Granted, I probably miss some of the details, but if I can follow the big picture storyline, I'm fine with that. When it comes to details, I'm more about watching Dean's face frame-by-frame in the quieter moments than I am about who got a particular kill.

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Legitimate question for the Dean fans annoyed that the trial storyline went to Sam... 

 

I get why you would have been annoyed at the time the episodes aired, but why does it still annoy you now even with hindsight? Since nothing came of it and it wound up being one of the most pointless storylines of the whole show.

 

Not trying to pick a fight/debate. I’m currently rewatching S8 and I’m just curious. 

For me it was because it was humiliating to watch Dean being made to literally bathe, feed and beg to take care of Sam.  I knew it was just going to end up with Sam resenting it and accusing Dean of treating him like a baby it. If the show can't be bothered to actually give Dean anything else to do it don't make him the villain for actually doing it. 

I hated Sam's speech in the church because it was basically another version of Fallen Idol (to me) where it mostly came across that Sam  letting Dean down pretty much Dean's fault. 

It made Dean look clingy when he begged Sam to stop the trial, and I knew that the blame would end up on Dean's shoulders and the show wouldn't hold Sam accountable to his own decision to stop.

Stopping the trials ended up being completely pointless because Sam was going to die anyway.  Then Carver proceeded to throw Dean under the bus.

Long, story short. it set Dean up to be the bad guy. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wayward Son]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me it was because it was humiliating to watch Dean being made to literally bathe, feed and beg to take care of Sam.  I knew it was just going to end up with Sam resenting it and accusing Dean of treating him like a baby it. If the show can't be bothered to actually give Dean anything else to do it don't make him the villain for actually doing it. 

I hated Sam's speech in the church because it was basically another version of Fallen Idol (to me) where it mostly came across that Sam  letting Dean down pretty much Dean's fault. 

It made Dean look clingy when he begged Sam to stop the trial, and I knew that the blame would end up on Dean's shoulders and the show wouldn't hold Sam accountable to his own decision to stop.

Stopping the trials ended up being completely pointless because Sam was going to die anyway.  Then Carver proceeded to throw Dean under the bus.

Long, story short. it set Dean up to be the bad guy. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me :)

[Pondlass1]

48 minutes ago, legendinmyownmind said:

You and many others are actually madly in love with Sam!*

I was just teasing, Legend.  And so long as we keep it to 'Dean and Sam' and not the actors... it's all fun in my book.  But you can have Sam.... I'll keep Dean. ;)

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me :)

You're welcome  :-)

To further expand I've always wanted to see an episode where Dean gets to confront his past and some of the things that happened to him, sort of like Devil in the details.   Where its not downplayed or used for laughs. (Yellow Fever). 

I feel like the design of the trials seems better to put Dean's demons to rest. 

Dean was killed by a hell hound.  So it would have been satisfying to watch him get to kill one.

Dean was trapped in hell and knows how horrible it was there so it might have helped him to release someone from hell.

He carries a lot of guilt from the souls he tortured and since that's how Demon's are created it might have helped Dean release some of it to cure a demon. 

So even if it was pointless, if Dean got to do the trials  I would have enjoyed it from that perspective. 

[legendinmyownmind]

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I was just teasing, Legend.

Yeah, I know.  Me too.  That's why I used the winkie: ;)

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

But you can have Sam.... I'll keep Dean. ;)

No arguments there.  I got the better deal.  :)

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, legendinmyownmind said:

No arguments there.  I got the better deal.  :)

Heh. This is the easiest agree to disagree comment that I've ever posted-anywhere and at any time. :)

[catrox14]

AFAIK, nothing's ever been said in the text on screen that ties a prophet's propheting skills to their soul.

Chuck made all the prophets so they have that prophet mojo imparted from from birth. Since there can only be one prophet at a time if Donatello's soul controls any part of him being a prophet, then it's absence makes him no longer a prophet and a new prophet should have been the one that showed up tracking Jack which didn't happen.

Thus my conclusion is that Donatello's soul has nothing to do with his abilities as a prophet and he is still a fully functioning prophet his tracking and reading of Jack's mojo is accurate, FOR NOW. He doesn't vibe that Jack has the same kind of mojo as Lucifer which  doesn't eliminate the possibility that Jack's Lucifer mojo could become more powerful as he "grows up" which is why Donatello said a lion is still a lion. IMO, Donatello validated BOTH Sam and Dean's view on Jack . Yet the nature vs nurture conundrum being  couched around "science" vs "prophet" discussion is ultimately pointless.

IMO, Blemming is setting up both Dean and Sam to take the fall if Jack does dark side. Dean will be blamed because he was "mean" to poor little 3 day old half archangel who has uncontrollable powers that if he had just believed in Jack he wouldn't be bad. Sam is risking blame if a portal to the AU is open and Lucifer comes back and his power influences Jack more than anyone else because you know LUCIFER.

I can totally see this show having Lucifer get out of the AU via Michael with Mary in Tow (hi Purgatory SL with Dean, Benny and Cas I SEE YOU SHOW. STOP IT) unbeknownst to Donatello because Jack's powers are stronger per that little nugget of nephilim lore that's been changed by the canon destroyers. 

Anyway, I can see Lucifer's presence in the SPN world starts making Jack behave badly. Sam and the some of the audience will blame Dean because he's been unsupportive and unbelieving and maybe even because he promised Jack he would kill him if it came to it. And at the same time it's learned that Sam and Jack have been finding a way to make a teensy little tear in the fabric between universes...for...reasons. But it's really Lucifer's influence over Jack which is neither nature nor nurture but the power of fucking Lucifer. And the whole debate remains conveniently avoided.  LOL

Once more it's Blemming thinking they are these deep thinkers examining  existential universe questions with all the depth of the kiddie pool.

[Aeryn13]

I think the set-up right now is very simplistic. Jack is played so much as the purest-of-snow-wounded-baby-bird character, there isn`t even an inkling of a question whether he is good or bad to the audience. And we have Jensen basically saying he would advise Dean not to judge a book by its cover. It couldn`t be any more clear cut to me.

IF Jack goes bad down the line, at least part-time, the only question is how much it is gonna be blamed on Dean. Which is hilarious because why does it matter so much what Dean does? Sam right now is portrayed as Saintly McWonderful, the wise and understanding (well, to Jack, that is), why that shouldn`t be enough to offset whatever Dean does, I don`t know. 

And since it is Bucklemming and what they previously said about Dean, they probably chose "crossed wires" with all the negative connotations because they think Dean`s character IS mentally deficient so Sam is 100 % validated in saying it. 

So Dean being wrong is a given to me. They just won`t blame it on Sam or give Dean the big hero scene because of it because that river only flows in one direction.  

My main gripe, that somehow Sam`s ego is going to be validated and inflated over the course of things, would happen either way, if he was wrong or not so it`s not like that matters.  

I know the show will never do it but I`d be happy to see either brother with a new hunting partner for a while. Maybe it would work out their respective kinks. But since the writers seem to think that noone can possibly find anything disagreeable with Sam`s personality, that probably wouldn`t help either. I mean, I love Dean but there are lots of parts of his personality that wouldn`t gel with me so I can totally see why he would be obnoxious to some people. But frankly, the same goes for Sam. Noone has a personality that is 100 % to the liking of every-freaking-body. And that goes for fictional characters as well.

With Sam, there is somewhat the Charlie-problem now where IMO Berens found her so loveable, he couldn`t imagine a world (audience) where that particular character just might put some people off. And they seem to think the same about Sam, that noone could legitimately say "well, I don`t like people who act x way". To me, that is kinda conceited. Do they think that is true in real life? Come on.

In reality, I could probably deal with Cas the easiest out of the characters on SPN. Then Dean. Ironically, I would probably get along swell with depressed!Dean because in general, depressed or not, Dean is usually pretty open to tactical arguments in terms of actions to take so I don`t foresee too much of a problem there. And in terms of what he thinks or feels, I would just leave him alone about it. So, very little problem.  

[DeeDee79]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Heh. This is the easiest agree to disagree comment that I've ever posted-anywhere and at any time. :)

Couldn't agree more!

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know the show will never do it but I`d be happy to see either brother with a new hunting partner for a while. Maybe it would work out their respective kinks. But since the writers seem to think that noone can possibly find anything disagreeable with Sam`s personality, that probably wouldn`t help either. I mean, I love Dean but there are lots of parts of his personality that wouldn`t gel with me so I can totally see why he would be obnoxious to some people. But frankly, the same goes for Sam. Noone has a personality that is 100 % to the liking of every-freaking-body. And that goes for fictional characters as well.

ITA with your whole post, but I'm going to take my response to the first two sentences to the bitterness spoilers/spec thread.

[shang yiet]

I think we can all agree that if Jack goes evil, that will be his fault (and Lucifer). He does have free will, after all.

Maybe Dean will be blamed for being 'mean' but I think it is far more likely that Sam will be blamed for being too naive and trusting and dumb for falling for Jack's tricks. And then the audience will blame arrogant Sam for not listening to Dean.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, shang yiet said:

I think we can all agree that if Jack goes evil, that will be his fault (and Lucifer). He does have free will, after all.

Maybe Dean will be blamed for being 'mean' but I think it is far more likely that Sam will be blamed for being too naive and trusting and dumb for falling for Jack's tricks. And then the audience will blame arrogant Sam for not listening to Dean.

ITA. The pattern of this show (and the fandom) is pretty well established by now. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m currently rewatching S8

<hushed, awed voice> You are a brave, brave man.

I haven't been able to build up the fortitude yet.  

[legendinmyownmind]

16 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

And then the audience will blame arrogant Sam for not listening to Dean.

Yup this^^  Definitely this.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

ITA. The pattern of this show (and the fandom) is pretty well established by now. 

That's pretty funny.  I see at least half the fandom saying the same thing about Sam, so I wouldn't make any blanket statements about "the fandom" (or the pattern of the show.)  

 

1 minute ago, legendinmyownmind said:

Yup this^^  Definitely this.

Does that mean you (as the audience) are also blaming Sam?  Or are you not considering yourself (or others with the same opinion) as the audience?

Edited October 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[Wayward Son]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's pretty funny.  I see at least half the fandom saying the same thing about Sam, so I wouldn't make any blanket statements about "the fandom" (or the pattern of the show.)  

I'm not gonna further touch fandom, but to focus on the show; what examples of Dean being wrong, and in such a way Sam or Cas aren't made to look worse later, do you consider as proving my argument Dean is always shown as right incorrect? I'm not looking for a full fledged debate especially since the mods have reminded us those aren't allowed in here, but I'm curious. 

 

Off the top of my head I can think of:

 

• Dean didn't trust Ruby but Sam trusted her. Dean was right about Ruby.
• Dean (and Sam cus the shows pattern is when these two agree on something the third party is wrong) decide opening the door to purgatory is a terrible idea. It unleashes the levithian and they're proven right.
• Dean trusts Benny, but Sam doesn't. Benny proves to be trustworthy.
• Sam appears to believe he was justified in believing Dean was dead and moving on with his life. Dean believes this to be a great abandoment and a failure on Sam's part. Sam ultimately admits giving up on Dean was his greatest failure at life. 
• Dean allows Ezekiel to possess Sam I consider a half wrong since they later have Sam proclaim Ezekiel his friend and give him a grand redemptive death.
• Dean takes on the mark to kill Abbadon and he succeeds in doing the task he was given without causing an apocalypse (unlike Sam whose special power enhanced demon kill unleashed Lucifer). The worldwide consequences of this are Sam's fault because he's the one who broke the mark against Dean's advise. 
• Sam trusts the man of letters but Dean thinks they're untrustworthy. The man of Letters tries to kill them. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not gonna further touch fandom, but to focus on the show; what examples of Dean being wrong, and in such a way Sam or Cas aren't made to look worse later, do you consider as proving my argument Dean is always shown as right incorrect? I'm not looking for a full fledged debate especially since the mods have reminded us those aren't allowed in here, but I'm curious. 

 

Off the top of my head I can think of:

 

• Dean didn't trust Ruby but Sam trusted her. Dean was right about Ruby.
• Dean (and Sam cus the shows pattern is when these two agree on something the third party is wrong) decide opening the door to purgatory is a terrible idea. It unleashes the levithian and they're proven right.
• Dean trusts Benny, but Sam doesn't. Benny proves to be trustworthy.
• Sam appears to believe he was justified in believing Dean was dead and moving on with his life. Dean believes this to be a great abandoment and a failure on Sam's part. Sam ultimately admits giving up on Dean was his greatest failure at life. 
• Dean allows Ezekiel to possess Sam I consider a half wrong since they later have Sam proclaim Ezekiel his friend and give him a grand redemptive death.
• Dean takes on the mark to kill Abbadon and he succeeds in doing the task he was given without causing an apocalypse (unlike Sam whose special power enhanced demon kill unleashed Lucifer). The worldwide consequences of this are Sam's fault because he's the one who broke the mark against Dean's advise. 

Since we're not supposed to debate( and I have no interest in trying to) all I want to point out is that nobody will ever "prove their point" because it's all subjective.  So if you're trying to get someone to say, "hey, yeah, you're absolutely right!  I've been wrong all along!" it's not going to happen.  

So feel free to express your opinion, but don't expect others to agree, no matter how many times you make your point, because others can make opposite points just as easily.  Trying to "prove" it over and over is what's considered debating and frustrating for both sides. So please be polite and don't try to change anyone's mind.

Edited October 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Since we're not supposed to debate( and I have no interest in trying to) all I want to point out is that nobody will every "prove their point" because it's all subjective.  So if you're trying to get someone to say, "hey, yeah, you're absolutely right!  I've been wrong all along!" it's not going to happen.  

So feel free to express your opinion, but don't expect others to agree, no matter how many times you make your point, because others can make opposite points just as easily.  Trying to "prove" it over and over is what's considered debating and frustrating for both sides. So please be polite and don't try to change anyone's mind.

I'm not trying to create a debate. I'm just curious to hear instances where you feel Dean was 100% wrong. I wasn't planning to respond further, just as when I earlier asked about why some fans still dislike Sam getting the trials story @ILoveReading was able to politely give me their perspective and I thanked them for sharing without trying to 'argue' against their perspective. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not trying to create a debate. I'm just curious to hear instances where you feel Dean was 100% wrong. I wasn't planning to respond further, just as when I earlier asked about why some fans still dislike Sam getting the trials story @ILoveReading gave me their perspective and I thanked them for sharing without trying to 'argue' against their perspective. 

Look at it from the other side--how about all the times Sam was 100% right? Because they're there (Consider Lenore, Magda, Andy and the pishtaco, just off the top of my head.  Gordon Walker.  Getting Bobby out of hell.  All the times Sam told Dean to "cool it." )  And I'm not grudging him any of that or thinking that it means *anything* about (or against) Dean.  

But IMO no one is 100% right or wrong--because there are extenuating circumstances, misinformation, changes of view (something that seemed right at the time turned out wrong and then reversed again, like Gadreel/Ezekial,  which I consider both right and wrong.)  It's blanket statements (like 100% or *everyone* thinks something that I dislike.

I'm about to leave the house so I can't give you a list right now but will try to come up with more examples later.

Edited October 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not trying to create a debate. I'm just curious to hear instances where you feel Dean was 100% wrong. I wasn't planning to respond further, just as when I earlier asked about why some fans still dislike Sam getting the trials story @ILoveReading was able to politely give me their perspective and I thanked them for sharing without trying to 'argue' against their perspective. 

Absolutes are tough, but I have only one instance where I thought Dean was 100% wrong (in anything of real import). That was not telling Sam right away that he'd been possessed by Gadreel in order to save him. And I mean, right away - like as soon as he regained consciousness and was out of the imminent danger of dying - while he was still in the hospital room or when they were walking out. He was 100% right to save Sam when Sam wasn't conscious to decide for himself - but if he'd told him right away and then conscious, aware Sam chose to eject the angel and die, so be it. I have a feeling it would not have gone down that way, but we'll never know.

Edited October 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
clarification

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Absolutes are tough, but I have only one instance where I thought Dean was 100% wrong (in anything of real import). That was not telling Sam right away that he'd been possessed by Gadreel in order to save him. And I mean, right away - like while he was still in the hospital room or when they were walking out. He was 100% right to save Sam when Sam wasn't conscious to decide for himself - but if he'd told him right away and then conscious, aware Sam chose to eject the angel and die, so be it. I have a feeling it would not have gone down that way, but we'll never know.

Thank you for providing me with your example. I do have some issues with the way the show handled the whole Gadreel thing, but I can see where you're coming from so thank you for answering :)

 

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Look at it from the other side--how about all the times Sam was 100% right? Because they're there (Consider Lenore, Magda, Andy and the pishtaco, just off the top of my head.  Gordon Walker.  Getting Bobby out of hell.  All the times Sam told Dean to "cool it." )  And I'm not grudging him any of that or thinking that it means *anything* about (or against) Dean.  

But IMO no one is 100% right or wrong--because there are extenuating circumstances, misinformation, changes of view (something that seemed right at the time turned out wrong and then reversed again, like Gadreel/Ezekial,  which I consider both right and wrong.)  It's blanket statements (like 100% or *everyone* thinks something that I dislike.

I'm about to leave the house so I can't give you a list right now but will try to come up with more examples later.

Thank you for providing your answers! Looking at your list I'd totally agree that the show was a lot more balanced from S1-7 and its the Carver era and beyond I hold issue with so thank you for adding to my perspective on this. In a non argumentative way (I honestly can't remember is all) what were Dean's arguments against freeing Bobby from hell? 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, legendinmyownmind said:

I seriously doubt Sam will blame Dean.  I'm sure the audience will blame Sam though.  Especially if this happens:

Yep, and then Sam ends up looking like an idiot again for trusting Jack when Dean was right.  Dean was always right. 

Couldn't agree with this more.

Please, you mean like Dean gets on Jody's or Donna's or Garth's nerves?  As if.  Even Rude Whiny Princess Dean isn't enough for anyone to find disagreeable on this show. 

Many characters have found Dean disagreeable and mostly unlikable at first blush but once they get to know him, they might not even like but they do love him because he is just that damn lovanle.He's funny, he has a good heart which clearly comes though once other characters get to know him. that doesn't change that he is also a dick at times.

That said, he's hated by many as well. Mostly demons and dick angels, cops, the ghostfacers really don't like Dean. They aren't friends.Lucifer Ruby, Alastair, Abaddon, Crowley off and on, Rowena at first but her arc changed. Becky hated Dean. Meg mostly but she came around to liking them both.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Becky hated Dean

I always thought it was very meta because she was supposed to be a Wincest/brother-fangirl but only stanned Sam. That`s actually a pretty accurate tumblr-portrayal. Compared to the convention episode where like 85 % of visitors were male and evenly paired off in Dean/Sam-couples who perfectly got along. Maybe it was an early introduction to the AU verse because that isn`t like any Con I`ve ever seen.   

[shang yiet]

Villains are supposed to hate Dean and Sam. I think most of the allies on the show like both Winchesters and so they should. 

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

F Jack goes bad down the line, at least part-time, the only question is how much it is gonna be blamed on Dean. Which is hilarious because why does it matter so much what Dean does? Sam right now is portrayed as Saintly McWonderful, the wise and understanding (well, to Jack, that is), why that shouldn`t be enough to offset whatever Dean does, I don`t know. 

This is why, IMO, this whole story line is a bust.  "Will Jack go evil?"  "He's just a blank slate and could go either way."  Yeah, right.  Jack is straightfoward and one dimensional like so many new characters these days.   There is no suspense to it.  If it was any other show I might wonder if Jack is playing the innocent act as a con.  But then I tell myself that there is no way Dabb would do that since he's so enmouraed of Jack and painting Sam as the perfect big brother. 

 

I admit I laughed when Dean said he'd be the one to kill Jack.  Because if Jack has to be put down, I'd lay odds on Sam getting the killing blow.  Dean's only allowed to kill stunt demon number 3 these days. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Villains are supposed to hate Dean and Sam. I think most of the allies on the show like both Winchesters and so they should. 

I think it depends on how you define "villain."  Was Gordon a villain, or just a really zealous hunter?  Was Henrickson a villain before he found out about the supernatural?  I don't think so.  Did Lisa and Ben really like Sam?  If not, were they villains? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I admit I laughed when Dean said he'd be the one to kill Jack.

When Dean says that on the show, he never gets to follow through. The one time it held true was when he said it to Azazel - and that was due to time travel after he had already done it. Otherhwise, it is a surefire way to know Dean won`t be the one.

Besides, I highly doubt anyone will kill Jack. He might join Amara, Chuck and the Anti-Christ in Somewhereville, the vacationing spot for godlike beings with potentially world-destroying powers.

[catrox14]

I

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

When Dean says that on the show, he never gets to follow through. The one time it held true was when he said it to Azazel - and that was due to time travel after he had already done it. Otherhwise, it is a surefire way to know Dean won`t be the one.

He promised to kill Zachariah and he did.

Edited October 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

When Dean says that on the show, he never gets to follow through. The one time it held true was when he said it to Azazel - and that was due to time travel after he had already done it. Otherhwise, it is a surefire way to know Dean won`t be the one.

Besides, I highly doubt anyone will kill Jack. He might join Amara, Chuck and the Anti-Christ in Somewhereville, the vacationing spot for godlike beings with potentially world-destroying powers.

I'm pretty sure he said he was going to kill Dick, and he did.

[catrox14]

Dean promised to kill Azazel, Zachariah and Dick and he did. I think that's it for the bulk of the big bads or moderately big bads that he's said he would kill and did. I think

So to me Dean telling Jack he'll kill him if that needs to happen IMO is not unlikely to happen. I just don't think it will because I don't think the show will have Jack die. Not this year. I think what is more likely to happen is Sam will be to Jack as Dean was to Amara. There will be a bond that is forming now and Sam will not be able to kill Jack even if he wanted to do it, like Dean with Amara. But Dean won't have a way to kill Jack when he loses control, and Sam will end up talking Jack off a ledge like Dean did with Amara. Just IMO.

Spoiler

unless it's a resurrected Cas talking Jack off a ledge. Or somehow it's Cas and Lucifer together whilst Dean and Sam are sidelined doing ...something else.

[shang yiet]

KatyM, my point was that Sam and Dean are both well-liked by their allies on the show and well-hated by the bad guys. It's not a case of people falling for Sam and hating Dean, or vice versa.

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean promised to kill Azazel, Zachariah and Dick and he did. I think that's it for the bulk of the big bads or moderately big bads that he's said he would kill and did. I think

Did he promise to kill Abaddon? I honestly can't remember if it was something he overtly stated or something he became laser focused on later on. 

[catrox14]

No it wasn't a promise.He wasn't on the kill Abadon train until Crowley set him on that path which coincided with him getting the Mark.its not like he told her to her face he would kill her. Like he did Azazel and Zachariah and Dick

[Airmid]

That's what I thought. Though seeing what she did to them, it's kind of surprising that he wouldn't have been more up on that. 

I still think it was supremely stupid of them to dig her up to cure - especially seeing as she had been neutralized - instead of just going for Crowley from the jump, but that's another topic. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I still think it was supremely stupid of them to dig her up to cure - especially seeing as she had been neutralized - instead of just going for Crowley from the jump, but that's another topic. 

Or, just going for a stunt demon their first time out. Why not work up to the Kings and Queens of Hell? So, stupid!!