“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DittyDotDot]

Henry had the key. He gave it to the boys when he was dying, as I recall.

[Myrelle]

The show just cannot attract decent writers, but even those rare few that show promise succumb to some kind of weird mandate that says you can't write for this show unless your writing sucks and we'll show you how to make it suck.

IA that the end is coming and that it's inevitable and, tbh, that it's past time the folks BTS(all of them, including the actors) of this show admit this to themselves and the fandom and just let it go because what's happening to it now is just embarrassing for everyone involved. IMO, of course.

There's nothing to fear. I'm confident that all involved will move on to other things successfully-even the fandom. It is the nature of this business that shows end and characters we love ride off into the sunset. We can only hope that our favorite shows will be allowed to go out with some dignity, and unfortunately, that's not happening with Supernatural. Not IMO, anyway. But with dignity or without it, it's going to end because the Js just can't(and IMO, don't want to-not a bad thing, btw) devote as much of their time and energy to the show as they used to. And yes, they ARE the show, but when even they can't sell the writing, it's time-and never has that been more noticeable and apparent than in S12. And 11 was just the precursor to 12, IMO.

They could still go out with a bang though, if they would just lose Dabb, and if Singer(and his wife) would agree to take a step back where it concerns the writing. I used to like Berens' writing until Dabb came along. And there's no denying that some of the newbies showed promise at the beginning of this season with some of their episodes. Not sure if they'd consider that, though, so if one is going to continue watching going into s13, my advice would be to strap in and prepare for and expect more of what we're getting right now-again, if something doesn't change BTS, that is.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

HENRY: You're also Winchesters. As long as we're alive, there's always hope. [DEAN and SAM look at each other.] I didn't know my son as a man, but having met you two... [HENRY takes DEAN’s hand with his right hand and holds out his left hand to SAM] …I know I would have been proud of him.

HENRY dies. SAM and DEAN look at each other, then SAM looks down at the box, which HENRY put into his hand. SAM looks back up at DEAN, who looks down.

...[then, after burying Henry]:

SAM takes the box out of his pocket.

DEAN: What are the chances that place is still standing?

SAM:  A chance we've got to take, I guess. I mean, we are legacies, right?

 

The silly thing there is that Henry apparently still had the key in his pocket when he went to meet Abaddon...just not the pocket she was looking in, where he had hidden the deck of cards.  Wouldn't it have made more sense to give it to Dean before he went  to make the trade?  Did he still not trust them?  Or was there something significant in the fact that he gave it to Sam ("the brains") instead of hunter/brawn Dean? Just curious.  

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

You also have to remember that this fandom is very wide-ranging and not everyone watches for the same reason, so not all fans are unhappy. Personally, I think the show fine right now; it's not flashy, but isn't egregious either. So, I'm guessing there's probably just as many people who love the show right now as there are fans who hate it and fans who are indifferent to it. 

I think the fact that the fans are still complaining and arguing over various points (and characters) shows that they're still passionate, even if disappointed or angry.  In my experience, when a show is fading away (or going out with a whimper) it's because the fans don't care any more, and just quietly stop watching.  Or maybe that's just me.  When I get bored or tired of a show, I usually first tend to forget to watch occasionally, then realize I don't care and stop watching altogether.  (That's what I did with Stargate SG1 when O'Neil left, though I'd started the "forgetting to watch" part when they started "dumbing him down" a few seasons before.)

I know there have been a lot of new/younger fans watching now because of all the streaming opportunities, and I'm pretty sure they have different expectations than the ones who've grown up with the boys in real time.  So in one sense it's disheartening to read complaint after complaint on this forum (as in, why are they still watching if they're so angry? And why do they keep threatening to quit instead of just doing it?) and in another sense, as I said, that means that people still care, so they're either getting some enjoyment from the show or are hoping it will fix whatever problems they perceive.  

Personally, I'm not nearly as invested as I was years ago, but I still see enough good in it to keep watching for now.  And maybe it's good that my obsession is dying down.  My family was getting tired of me quoting SPN all the time.  :)

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 In my experience, when a show is fading away (or going out with a whimper) it's because the fans don't care any more, and just quietly stop watching.  Or maybe that's just me.  When I get bored or tired of a show, I usually first tend to forget to watch occasionally, then realize I don't care and stop watching altogether.  (That's what I did with Stargate SG1 when O'Neil left, though I'd started the "forgetting to watch" part when they started "dumbing him down" a few seasons before.)

That's what I generally do.  I think I've rage quit ONE show in my life and I almost rage quit SPN when they turned Dean into a demon. But I was glad I didn't because I ended up enjoying that arc in general. This season I'm becoming a little apathetic with a side of irked. If s13 is announced to be the end of the show, then I'll hope they have a plan for a big finish and I'll settle in for all the episodes likely. If it's 13 leading to 14 or 15, I'll probably watch the first few episodes, see how I feel and measure it out. And even when the end comes if I've opted out before then, I'll come back to watch the final episodes of the series.  I did that with the Vampire Diaries. I quit watching that show after s2 and watched the final two episodes.  I'm weird I guess. Like I'll need the closure LOL. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

The silly thing there is that Henry apparently still had the key in his pocket when he went to meet Abaddon...just not the pocket she was looking in, where he had hidden the deck of cards.  Wouldn't it have made more sense to give it to Dean before he went  to make the trade?  Did he still not trust them?  Or was there something significant in the fact that he gave it to Sam ("the brains") instead of hunter/brawn Dean? Just curious.  

If he had given it to Dean earlier, he couldn't have had a dramatic death bed rite of handing it over.  I think it's probably as simple as that without any deeper motivations of lack of trust or specifically giving it to Sam.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If he had given it to Dean earlier, he couldn't have had a dramatic death bed rite of handing it over.  I think it's probably as simple as that without any deeper motivations of lack of trust or specifically giving it to Sam.

Well, they could have had Dean pull out the box and show that he had it all along, while Henry was dying in his arms, and have Henry clasp their hands over it and give his speech then.

But I didn't really think it had any deeper motivation.  My problem (as with Dagon monologing) is deliberately stupid plot actions just for the sake of drama.  For me, it's a writing thing, not a character issue.  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

My problem (as with Dagon monologing) is deliberately stupid plot actions just for the sake of drama.  For me, it's a writing thing, not a character issue.  

Again, I don't really know that it would make a huge difference who had the key if it was still in the room.  If Henry hadn't been successful in shooting her, Abaddon would have killed all of them quite easily.  So, not bringing the key at all, probably would have been the smartest move. 

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Again, I don't really know that it would make a huge difference who had the key if it was still in the room.  If Henry hadn't been successful in shooting her, Abaddon would have killed all of them quite easily.  So, not bringing the key at all, probably would have been the smartest move. 

Not bringing the key would have been smarter, but maybe they needed to have it there just in case (in Dean's case, to stop Abaddon from killing Sam if Plan A failed).  But since Henry had it in a pocket just inches from the fake, if he hadn't managed to shoot her (or if she'd been faster), she could very easily just check his other pockets, and they would lose all leverage.  Logic failure.  

I will say I didn't think of it at the time, so obviously it didn't bother me then.  But I've been working as an editor and proofreader for quite a while, where I get paid to nitpick, and logic fails really bother me. (That's actually the part of character issues that annoy me--when they do something stupid or illogical that's OOC, not who gets more kills or more attention.)    I know YMMV.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

(That's actually the part of character issues that annoy me--when they do something stupid or illogical that's OOC, not who gets more kills or more attention.)   I know YMMV.

No, I entirely agree with you. It's why I really disliked much of season 8. I kept thinking "who are these people?" most of the first half of the season. And sadly I was even one of those viewers who for a while thought that Sam's Amelia's flashbacks were maybe delusions instead of the real thing, because they made so little sense character-wise to me. I thought the weird, ethereal lighting in the flashbacks and the fact that there seemed to be no real (or believable) other world building details (weird Sam details, no other people except Amelia and her Dad, etc.) were clues that the flashbacks weren't actually real. Of course I was totally wrong, but...

Edited to add:

@Katy M:

Quote

I don't think that made much difference.  Abaddon knew one of the three had the key. 

Ah, okay. Hazards of disliking the season and not really rewatching it. I just assumed that Abaddon wasn't sure where they key was or if Henry had gotten rid of it or not, because she went through the charade of pretending to be the wife and serve tea. So I figured she did that so she could listen in on the conversation between the former Men of Letters and Sam, because she needed some kind of information. I figured if she knew one of the three had it, she could've just nabbed Sam as soon as he showed up and used him as a hostage.

I know, I know. I'm looking for logic. Lost my head for a minute there.  ; )

Edited April 29, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[MysteryGuest]

My issue has always been the wasted potential.  They had the chance to do something really different this season, but they decided to stick with the same old, tired formula.  Only with less Jared and Jensen, it's a watered-down version of the tired old formula.  I figured the introduction of all of the new writers would be a little bumpy, but that, combined with less of the J's, has made this season pretty disappointing for me.  

They have a great cast, a great story base with Sam and Dean, and a built-in, rabid audience.  But rather than taking advantage of that to do something interesting, they appear to have just taken it for granted instead.  

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So I figured she did that so she could listen in on the conversation between the former Men of Letters and Sam, because she needed some kind of information. I figured if she knew one of the three had it, she could've just nabbed Sam as soon as he showed up and used him as a hostage.

I think the info she needed was where the bunker was.  Then, since Larry asked if Sam had the key she waited for that answer because if he said yes, she would have been totally set.

[AwesomO4000]

Ah okay, though I don't know how she could be sure ahead of time that she would get that detailed information from the conversation... Or she could've possessed the Men of Letters guy instead... I don't know, it just seems so contrived that that was the info she needed and voila, the MoL guy just writes down the detailed coordinates that he just happened to know or have on hand (I don't remember, but I know he didn't leave to go get them so...), but yeah season 8 and hate, so...

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

You also have to remember that this fandom is very wide-ranging and not everyone watches for the same reason, so not all fans are unhappy. Personally, I think the show fine right now; it's not flashy, but isn't egregious either. So, I'm guessing there's probably just as many people who love the show right now as there are fans who hate it and fans who are indifferent to it. 

This is why I find myself getting irritated when I read fans presuming to speak on behalf of "the fans" and what "the fans want". The Supernatural fandom is a large and varied one, the thoughts and feelings of which can not be summed up in one sweeping statement. 

Plus, I find myself asking where exactly do these people get their information from? Have they taken a poll to record fandom preferences? Have they reached out and spoken to every fan of the show in order to assess the wants of the fandom? I certainly wasn't consulted in such a survey and therefore find it very presumptive for someone to state what I as a fan want, or do I not count as a fan if I don't want whatever it is a user is telling us "the fans" want. 

So my ultimate question is; is really what "the fans want", or do they truly mean "this is what my friends and I want". 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah okay, though I don't know how she could be sure ahead of time that she would get that detailed information from the conversation... Or she could've possessed the Men of Letters guy instead... I don't know, it just seems so contrived that that was the info she needed and voila, the MoL guy just writes down the detailed coordinates that he just happened to know or have on hand (I don't remember, but I know he didn't leave to go get them so...), but yeah season 8 and hate, so...

Actually, this doesn't seem all that conrntrived to me.  MOL has anti-possession protection of some kind.  Abaddon had just beat Sam there, which is why she hadn't had time to get the info in a more Abbadon-ian way. Sam shows up, so she's more than happy to let him get the answers easy.  If that hadn't worked, she would have gone with plan A.  Of course, Larry remembers where the bunker is.  It's their main thing.  And everyone on supernatural only speaks of locations in coordinates, for some odd reason I don't understand, but since this appears to be the truth, I see no reason why he wouldn't know them off the top of his head.  Since handing Henry the key was the last thing he did before being attacked, protecting that bunker, and all that goes with it, seems to be what everyone died for, and would thus be remembered in all details and coordinates, to the sole survivor.

[AwesomO4000]

I guess. But that it happened was it 50 years ago? Somethings stick with you, but I don't know about detailed coordinates which are, I think, 6 numbers. And how was Abaddon sure that Sam would even ask that question or that the MoL guy would remember?

I suppose you could be right, but it seems like a bit too much cooincidence to me. Especially since suggesting throwing the key to the bottom of the ocean or in the nearest volcano and taking the location of the bunker to his grave would seem to be just as easy a way to protect it than just giving out the location of the bunker to someone he doesn't really know - who could be working for a demon or something.

But as I said, season 8, and I likely shouldn't be giving it that much thought for my sanity's sake.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess. But that it happened was it 50 years ago? Somethings stick with you, but I don't know about detailed coordinates which are, I think, 6 numbers. And how was Abaddon sure that Sam would even ask that question or that the MoL guy would remember?

I suppose you could be right, but it seems like a bit too much cooincidence to me. Especially since suggesting throwing the key to the bottom of the ocean or in the nearest volcano and taking the location of the bunker to his grave would seem to be just as easy a way to protect it than just giving out the location of the bunker to someone he doesn't really know - who could be working for a demon or something.

But as I said, season 8, and I likely shouldn't be giving it that much thought for my sanity's sake.

There are a lot of episodes that I find very plot hole-y. But, this episode doesn't happen to be one of them.  LIke I said, Abaddon was probably planning on torturing it out of Larry, but Sam showed up.  Why not let Sam do his thing?  No, she didn't know what he was going to ask, but what was she going to lose?  A half hour?  No big deal. 

I guess you're right about throwing it into a volcano, though.  I hadn't thought of that.  Then we could have gotten an episode where they go to Indonesia or something. 

[SueB]

@denise42

You can write to

Andrew Dabb
c/o Holly Ollis
Warner Bros Television
4000 Warner Blvd
Bldg 140.
Burbank, CA 91522

Holly is a Warner Brothers TV employee. She handles the writer's mail (including Dabb).  

Dabb is notoriously shy but I think if you write him a sincere letter of concern, he'd probably read it.  Now is a good time to write as they are about to have a writer's strike.  I would think they would get access to their mail at WBTV and frankly, have the time.  

And don't worry about not using Twitter. Dabb puts his toe in the twitter waters but only gently. He doesn't engage much on Social Media.  A letter is the best choice for his attention IMO.  I've seen evidence they DO get their mail -- it doesn't just go to some intern.  

[Geordiegirl1967]

On 29/04/2017 at 1:34 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure the show is losing large number of fans, though, I think that might be down to perception. I think average viewer just watches and doesn't get involved fandom, so what we're seeing on the message boards and fan sites doesn't necessarily represent the audience as a whole.

It is a fact that the show is losing viewers. We've been posting previous almost unheard of 0.5s in the demo, and the latest ep was a series low of 1.38m which scraped a 0.5 but was almost a 0.4 in the demo. I know a show in its 12th year isn't going to be gaining in the ratings, and that the long term trend for shows is always down until cancellation. But the loss (since Xmas particularly) this season has been severe.

We can debate why. I share the view expressed above that a big element is the loss of focus on the brothers which is the key draw for many fans. Another factor is almost certainly the move to 8pm. But whatever the reason, the loss of viewers is not just a perception. It's a fact. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Wayward Son]

Personally, I feel it is most likely the time change that is the biggest factor to the ratings this year. Not only has the show been moved to 8pm, but it has been moved to 8pm on a Thursday, which is the most competitive hour. I would need to fact check, but I'm fairly certain that this hour has the most expensive ad rates for that reason. I hope the show is moved back to nine next season if only to disprove my theory that it's the time change that has caused the drop. 

I'm not going to rule out fandom displeasure as a part of it, but I'm wary of giving it too much credit for the simple fact it's nothing new. *I have seen complaints from fans of the brothers that the show hasn't been focusing enough on them since at least season 8, I've read complaints from Castiel fans about the shows treatment of him for even longer than that, I've read complaints from major Dean fans and major Sam fans throughout various of the show. For instance there were many Dean fans not happy when Sam took on the trials during season 8, or Sam fans were irritated when they felt Sam was being written in an unflattering light throughout season 9.

*  I'm not saying all fans of a particular pairing / character have felt/feel this way just that such sentiments have existed within fandom throughout the shows history.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Geordiegirl1967]

There is a review of the season to date from TV Equals. 

http://www.tvequals.com/2017/05/01/supernatural-the-good-the-bad-and-the-frustrating/

The writer is clearly a fan, albeit a frustrated one. She has some interesting thoughts. I agree with much of her assessment. Though I think she is missing the main problem with s12 which has been the lack of focus on Sam and Dean and, linked to that, the almost complete absence (despite some very obvious opportunities) of emotional moments between them. 

I agree with her view that the pacing has been off, there have been too many storylines running, and they've run out of ideas of what to do with Cas.

i strongly agree with this 

Quote

The show, once again, sacrificed character for story, and I’ve said time and time again that it never works out well when you do that. The mess that has become of Mary Winchester is proof positive of it.

This is my hot button issue. I HAVE to have believable, consistently written characters in my fiction or I lose interest. I've given up on many shows when they failed at this. It is a testament to how much I love this show that I managed to force myself to kept watching after the egregious decision to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. I agree with this reviewer that they've totally blown Mary's character for the sake of the story, and to a large extent they've done the same with Cas this season (though for me they've been messing up Cas's character for years). 

Intersted to hear others views.

[Wayward Son]

My thoughts on that article

No mention of Crowley whatsoever, the barest smidgen on Mary, an attack on Castiel without the slightest attempt at balancing things out along without outright false statements like "he hasn't grown since season five". 

My main conclusion would be I find it hard to take an article like that seriously because the editor makes absolutely no attempt to hide their own biases and approach the season objectively.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I don`t agree with her criticism of Castiel but her assessment of Mary (and I checked, she had a previous more indepth article on that topic) is spot on. So it`s half/half for me.

[catrox14]

I'm rather puzzled by the assessment that Cas hasn't grown since s5. It seems like the writer missed s9 if the assessment is that Cas hasn't grown at all. 

IMO, Cas gets dealt the same fate as both Sam and Dean. The writers won't let them out of their boxes for that long. So, it ends up with them taking two steps forward and one step back or even one step forward and two steps back. But IMO, Cas experienced major growth in s9 and s10 but I'll take my in-depth reply to the Castiel thread.  :)

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

57 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

the barest smidgen on Mary,

This is unfair. She mentions Mary a lot and references an in depth previous article she has written about her in s12. 

I agree she doesn't talk about Crowley, but then a season doesn't really succeed or fail based on Crowley's story.

I actually share her view on Cas. He has made stupid mistake after stupid mistake and never seems to learn - a trait that is becoming incredibly annoying and repetitive. (I genuinely don't think you can say the same about Dean and Sam (though their characterisation hasn't always been perfect)). I'd only just managed to get past the hugely idiotic decision to say yes to Lucifer last season, when he does it again! I blame the writers. They are out of ideas for Cas and have been for some time IMO.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

There is a review of the season to date from TV Equals. 

http://www.tvequals.com/2017/05/01/supernatural-the-good-the-bad-and-the-frustrating/

The writer is clearly a fan, albeit a frustrated one. She has some interesting thoughts. I agree with much of her assessment. Though I think she is missing the main problem with s12 which has been the lack of focus on Sam and Dean and, linked to that, the almost complete absence (despite some very obvious opportunities) of emotional moments between them. 

I agree with her view that the pacing has been off, there have been too many storylines running, and they've run out of ideas of what to do with Cas.

i strongly agree with this 

This is my hot button issue. I HAVE to have believable, consistently written characters in my fiction or I lose interest. I've given up on many shows when they failed at this. It is a testament to how much I love this show that I managed to force myself to kept watching after the egregious decision to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. I agree with this reviewer that they've totally blown Mary's character for the sake of the story, and to a large extent they've done the same with Cas this season (though for me they've been messing up Cas's character for years). 

Intersted to hear others views.

Thank you for posting the link; it was a good read and there were many good points made. I strongly agree with the assessment of the writing for Castiel this season. He's been mostly absent and when he returned it was for a rehash of writing that we've seen for his character many times before. 

[DittyDotDot]

59 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

It is a fact that the show is losing viewers. We've been posting previous almost unheard of 0.5s in the demo, and the latest ep was a series low of 1.38m which scraped a 0.5 but was almost a 0.4 in the demo. I know a show in its 12th year isn't going to be gaining in the ratings, and that the long term trend for shows is always down until cancellation. But the loss (since Xmas particularly) this season has been severe.

Yes, the ratings are down. That's happening network-wide, though, so I don't know why it's assumed the problem is with the show itself? I would expect the ratings to climb back up in the coming weeks as many viewers return for the final few episodes. That's generally been the trend, anyway. I doubt they'll be equal to last year's ratings, but, like I said, the network as a whole has been down all year, so that seems rather unlikely.

I'm sure we have lost some viewers--it's a show in it's 12th season and all--but, large numbers? I'm not convinced of that myself. I think there's so many different ways to watch anymore it's hard to tell for sure how many we lost or how many just found a different way to watch that's not being reflected in the ratings. But, personally, I feel as though Nielson ratings are antiqued and don't necessarily reflect the audience as a whole anyway.

It's funny because I feel like this is the sentiment every year around this time--the ratings are down, the show is killing itself, etc.--but this year I just don't feel it myself. I feel like, when it's all said and done, it's gonna be okay for some reason. I have not idea where this newfound optimism I've had this year in general has come from, but I do seem to have it, none the less. ;)

As a side note: I wonder how much of an effect the CW shows being pulled from Hulu are making on the ratings? Also, I wonder if knowing the CW shows will be up for streaming on Netflix earlier are also having an effect on the live ratings. Could be some people are just waiting to binge it over the summer rather than watching it live? Might be some of the reason why ratings have fallen network-wide?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As a side note: I wonder how much of an effect the CW shows being pulled from Hulu are making on the ratings? Also, I wonder if knowing the CW shows will be up for streaming on Netflix earlier are also having an effect on the live ratings. Could be some people are just waiting to binge it over the summer rather than watching it live? Might be some of the reason why ratings have fallen network-wide?

I mentioned this in the ratings thread. My thinking is that when it's getting close to the end of the season, spring has sprung, folks are watching playoff sports and early baseball, or even those who are frustrated with the storyline or just busy in life, what's another 8 days post finale to wait and binge the final episodes or even the whole season in a few days?

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I mentioned this in the ratings thread. My thinking is that when it's getting close to the end of the season, spring has sprung, folks are watching playoff sports and early baseball, or even those who are frustrated with the storyline or just busy in life, what's another 8 days post finale to wait and binge the final episodes or even the whole season in a few days?

That's what I was wondering. Hell, I was thinking about it with another show. I fell behind on it and was going to get caught up by buying a couple episodes on Amazon, but realized the entire season would be up on Netflix shortly, so it didn't seem necessary to spend the money--especially since I hadn't been enamored enough to keep up with it in the first place.

However, I'm not just talking about spring ratings--they typically do drop for the reasons you mentioned--but I wonder how much of an effect it's had on the ratings all year?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I'm not just talking about spring ratings--they typically do drop for the reasons you mentioned--but I wonder how much of an effect it's had on the ratings all year?

I would say it's probably fair to think it has an impact.  That might be why all the CW shows are down this year. Maybe folks are waiting to binge.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

This is unfair. She mentions Mary a lot and references an in depth previous article she has written about her in s12. 

I will concede that remark was harsh of me due to other annoyances with the article. 

Quote

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I agree she doesn't talk about Crowley, but then a season doesn't really succeed or fail based on Crowley's story.

 

Perhaps not, but if one is evaluating a full season of the show then it only makes sense that a reference to a secondary cast member should be included. Even if it was limited to a quick reference. 

I'm taking my Castiel related response to the Castiel thread. 

[Diane]

[Geordiegirl1967]

Good news about the strike. I would love to try out a bit of time travelling / manipulation so I could see how SPN would have turned out if Kripke had been able to tell the story he wanted to before the strike that affected s3 (Sam saving Dean but turning bad in the process, finding out what he intended re the dropped story of all of Mary's relatives being killed etc). I suspect I would have, at least initially, liked it better. I always felt sending Dean to hell for decades in his eyes ratcheted things up a bit too far too quickly - requiring the show to go from monsters and demons linked to their family to heaven and hell and apocalypse and arch angels and God. If they'd have known then they had 10+ more years to tell their stories.....

Who knows? Fun to speculate though.

[Wayward Son]

Since I know you're a major fan of the brothers and their bond I'm not sure you would actually enjoy Kripke's original plan more. Supposedly the plan was

Originally Dean was not going to go to hell. Kripke was initially adamant that there would be no Angels on the show despite the attempts of writers such as Gamble to persuade him otherwise. Instead Sam was going to fully embrace his demonic abilities and use them to save Dean from the pit. Unfortunately, this would come at the price of Sam's humanity and he would go full blown dark side. However, the shortened season meant they didn't have the time needed to do this and so Dean was ultimately sent to hell and the dark Sam stuff was pushed back to season four. 

On the other hand, the dark Sam stuff was originally much darker than what we actually got! The original seasons 4 and 5 would have been spent with Dean trying to track down and save Sam. However, Sam was going to be irredeemable, driven mad by whatever power he used to save Dean, and the show would have ended with Dean having to kill Sam to protect humanity and the man he once was. 

So I'd be surprised if a viewer as invested in the brothers as you are would have enjoyed an ending, which saw one brother tragically take the life of the other? 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Demented Daisy]

We're also coming up on finals, at both the high school and collegiate levels.  I tend to think that has an effect on ratings, as well.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So I'd be surprised if a viewer as invested in the brothers as you are would have enjoyed an ending, which saw one brother tragically take the life of the other? 

Yeah, I know I wouldn't have liked that better.  

Oh, and also - at the end Dean was supposed to be off trying to live a 'normal' life but failing because he was so messed up.  So yay?  Tragic endings all around!  Just the kind of mindless entertainment I like!  <//snark>.

I also read? heard? I can't remember now...that originally Sam was supposed to be married to Ruby by the time Dean got out of Hell.  Ugh.  No.  Just so glad they didn't go there either.  

[MysteryGuest]

I'm also glad Kripke's original idea didn't come to be, if that truly was how he wanted it to go.  I much prefer the way things played out.  I may not always enjoy the angel/demon dynamic, but the alternative would have been much worse, IMO.

[Geordiegirl1967]

56 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, Sam was going to be irredeemable, driven mad by whatever power he used to save Dean, and the show would have ended with Dean having to kill Sam to protect humanity and the man he once was. 

Well of course that would never have happened because the show would (presumably - though we'll never know) have been renewed. So instead Dean would have redeemed Sam in a similar way to the end of Swan Song by forcing him to choose between killing him or rejecting his dark side. Sam could not have killed Dean so would have been saved. 

While I know that the bones of what you say are correct (that he planned for Sam to go dark to save Dean from hell leaving Dean trying to redeem a Dark Sam) I highly doubt that at the start of s3 Kripke was planning to blow up / end his own show within a season, rather than trying to keep it going - which is after all their main goal. I also know that Kripke has never stated what his original '5 year plan' was, in any detail and has in fact downplayed how much of that 'plan' existed that than being just spin to convince the network to keep the show going. I have certainly never heard anything like this....

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

The original seasons 4 and 5 would have been spent with Dean trying to track down and save Sam. However, Sam was going to be irredeemable, driven mad by whatever power he used to save Dean, and the show would have ended with Dean having to kill Sam to protect humanity and the man he once was. 

...and frankly I doubt he ever planned a Dark Sam story to go on more that a few eps. At the time we are discussing (the planning for s3 which was straight after AHBL 1 and 2) Cas and the angels weren't even a twinkle in his eye. At that point it was all Dean and Sam all of the time and, whether you were in this camp then or not and whether you think this remains true or not, they were back then the only show in town in terms of why people watched. Their characters and their bond had been what had kept people engaged up to that point. It seems to me highly unlikely that Kripke planned to pee in his own pool in the way you describe. 

Of course we will never know which is why it is fun to speculate. I wonder how s6 onwards would have differed if Kripke had stayed, and what he thinks of how the show is doing now.

[Aeryn13]

In Season 3 I was this close to dropping the show. Only Dean going to hell gave me some hope for a story for him so I kept watching. I feared the scenario Kripke actually wanted to do so despite it turning to crap, I`ll be forever grateful to the Writer`s strike of 2007. 

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

...and frankly I doubt he ever planned a Dark Sam story to go on more that a few eps. At the time we are discussing (the planning for s3 which was straight after AHBL 1 and 2) Cas and the angels weren't even a twinkle in his eye. At that point it was all Dean and Sam all of the time and, whether you were in this camp then or not and whether you think this remains true or not, they were back then the only show in town in terms of why people watched. Their characters and their bond had been what had kept people engaged up to that point. It seems to me highly unlikely that Kripke planned to pee in his own pool in the way you describe. 

I dunno. Given Kripke's comments in Variety's Oral History of Supernatural, from 2014,(which I posted upthread) it seems he was pretty bent on evil!Sam vs good!Dean.  Here's another excerpt from that article that I didn't post before.

 

Quote

Kripke: If I’ve said in the past that I had this five year plan from the beginning, I was lying. I always knew what that particular season was going to be; “by midseason I want to be here, by the end of the season I want to be there.” And then I always had a rough sketch what the season after that would be. I will say I knew that the show was going to come down to evil Sam versus good Dean and the fate of the world was going to hang in the balance — that was baked into the pilot. I wanted to build it to something that felt conclusive because I didn’t want these mysteries and mythologies to stretch on forever.

 

Also, this excerpt seems to point to the addition of Castiel as critical to the show (this was in 2014 not 2005)

Quote

Padalecki: I think season four was really the turning point for the show, and really set the new parameters for what the show is still about to this day, most notably with the introduction of Castiel.

Ackles: This was when “Lost” was on the air, “Heroes” was on the air, these giant mega hits. I remember Eric taking issue with “Lost” because they kept asking questions and never really giving answers. He was against that method of storytelling and said, “no, I’m going to ask the question and I’m going to answer it. And maybe the audience doesn’t like the answer, but I’m most certainly not going to string them along just until I come up with some sort of a solution.” That’s one of the reasons why, from season to season, the bar just kept getting raised and the supernatural world kept getting bigger, almost to the point where it was incomprehensible to the Winchesters. I think we really saw that when the introduction of angels came into play, and then it became something far greater than things that go bump in the night… It was a leap of faith. I wouldn’t have had the confidence to do something like that, but I think it panned out. And now we have one of the most loved characters of the series still with us today.

Edited May 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Diane]

Season 3 is one of my favorite seasons of the show.  The episodes are focused on the brothers trying to save Dean.  The MOTW episodes were very good and most still furthered the season long plot.  Dean and Sam were smart and bad-ass throughout the season,.  The writing was sharp and for the most part neither brother was a dumb-ass.  Yes Sam was trusting Ruby, but he was also trying to save his brother from Hell, he was desperate. 

This is the season after all that gave us Bad Day at Black Rock, Fresh Blood, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Dream a Little Dream of Me, Mystery Spot, Jus in Bello, Ghostfacers and the creepy Time Is on My Side. We got some great brother moments and both actors had some really great acting scenes. I thought the writers did a great job with the time they had and I personally thought the writing was stronger because of the shorten season. YMMV

And Bon Jovi always rocks!

Edited May 3, 2017 by Diane

[Wayward Son]

58 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Well of course that would never have happened because the show would (presumably - though we'll never know) have been renewed. So instead Dean would have redeemed Sam in a similar way to the end of Swan Song by forcing him to choose between killing him or rejecting his dark side. Sam could not have killed Dean so would have been saved. 

While I know that the bones of what you say are correct (that he planned for Sam to go dark to save Dean from hell leaving Dean trying to redeem a Dark Sam) I highly doubt that at the start of s3 Kripke was planning to blow up / end his own show within a season, rather than trying to keep it going - which is after all their main goal. I also know that Kripke has never stated what his original '5 year plan' was, in any detail and has in fact downplayed how much of that 'plan' existed that than being just spin to convince the network to keep the show going. I have certainly never heard anything like this....

...and frankly I doubt he ever planned a Dark Sam story to go on more that a few eps. At the time we are discussing (the planning for s3 which was straight after AHBL 1 and 2) Cas and the angels weren't even a twinkle in his eye. At that point it was all Dean and Sam all of the time and, whether you were in this camp then or not and whether you think this remains true or not, they were back then the only show in town in terms of why people watched. Their characters and their bond had been what had kept people engaged up to that point. It seems to me highly unlikely that Kripke planned to pee in his own pool in the way you describe. 

Of course we will never know which is why it is fun to speculate. I wonder how s6 onwards would have differed if Kripke had stayed, and what he thinks of how the show is doing now.

Of course Castiel and the angels weren't even a twinkle in the writers eye! I even said in my post prior to the writing strike they were something Kripke was against. The angels were introduced as a way of explaining Dean's rescue from the pit after the shortened season caused by the writers strike forced them to send him there. 

Beyond that my response would have pretty much been what @catrox14 said. 

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Diane said:

And Bon Jovi always rocks!

::snort:: Bon Jovi rocks...on occasion!! ;)

[Diane]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: Bon Jovi rocks...on occasion!! ;)

Blasphemy my 80's girl heart thinks they always rock!

[DittyDotDot]

58 minutes ago, Diane said:

Blasphemy my 80's girl heart thinks they always rock!

Hee!! Just having a little fun with ya--and @AwesomO4000. ;)

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

..and frankly I doubt he ever planned a Dark Sam story to go on more that a few eps.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno.... it seems he was pretty bent on evil!Sam vs good!Dean.

I agree that 'Sam goes dark to save Dean the Dean has to redeem Sam' was Kripke's plan for s3 and early s4 if they got that far. However I highly doubt, and nothing you have posted provides any evidence to the contrary, that he would have wanted this (brothers estranged, Sam=evil) to go on for too long. Not least because where would the dialogue have come from as every emotional arc and every plot was played out through conversations between the brothers ;-). Kripke knew the relationship between Dean and Sam was the goose that kept on laying the golden eggs. He wouldn't have ruined that only 3 seasons in, when all the evidence was that that was the big draw of the show. And at that point, as I said, there was no competition. D&S were the only regular characters. All of the stories and arcs were about them / focused on them. There was nothing telling Kripke that formula was broken and needed fixing.

The other quote you posted confirmed what I'd said about Kripke's '5 year plan' being nonsense. So the idea that - at the start of s3 - Kripke was planning a Dark Sam arc for s3, 4 and 5 that ended with Dean killing Sam is not credible.

Leaving aside the bigger arcs, I do wonder where he was going with the killing of all of Mary's relatives (which when you rewatch the whole season now is a big howling dropped story with no explanation) if he had had a whole season. 

[shang yiet]

Sam should have rescued Dean from hell. I wanted the victory for him.

[Aeryn13]

So, as per the new sneak peak 

Spoiler

Dean has to ask Sam if Sam can fix the Colt. Because apparently Dean is too stupid to even attempt it. He can do a bit of manual labor on cars but fixing weapons is beyond him. That has to go to Can-do-everything-Sam now. And if it was about lore, what, Dean is too stupid to research that? Oh yes, I forgot, this Season, he is. 

Therefore Sam now covers all his own areas of expertise as well as everything Dean was previously good at. Meanwhile Dean is good at nothing anymore. Why is he kept around? For Sam`s amusement? Someone to play hero to and explain the simplest things to?

This has gone beyond lopsided and into being purposefully mean-spirited. 

[ILoveReading]

Spoiler

  And no I am not saying that Dean is not capable, because he is, but this being a show about both people I don't expect Dean to do it all. I am worried about the Dean and Cas thing too. I am hoping that they are not going with Cas not being himself.  Hopefully we will learn more tomorrow night.

From the spoiler thread

 

No, but the show certainly making it clear that Dean can't.  According to Sam, Dean is supposed to be genius at lore.  He's more than capable of researching and figuring it out.

The problem isn't Dean doing it all.  Its Dean doing nothing at all.  Sam takes the leads in all the hunts, Sam comes up with all the ideas, Sam takes the lead in interviewing witnesses, Sam bonds with all the guest stars, Sam gets all the kills and does all the research.

Meanwhile, Dean lost every skill he's had.  He can't come up with plans or ideas, he's not researching, he's making dumb mistakes and can't even hold onto a weapon.

I'm not asking for Dean to do it all, just to do something. 

I don't buy its for storyline reasons, because there is nothing on screen to indicate it.  Even if they add a throw away line its going to feel forced and added only to counter criticism. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The problem isn't Dean doing it all.  Its Dean doing nothing at all.  Sam takes the leads in all the hunts, Sam comes up with all the ideas, Sam takes the lead in interviewing witnesses, Sam bonds with all the guest stars, Sam gets all the kills and does all the research.

Yup. And for a show supposedly about two people apparently THAT is no problem. For several episodes. Just the mere idea of giving a tiny thing for Dean to do in one episode however is. God forbid he would

Spoiler

have gotten to fix the Colt

amidst all the Sam killing the Alpha Vamp, super hellhound, goat God and coming up with the Spawn solution. All with NO participation from Dean in any of those.   

Edited May 3, 2017 by Aeryn13